Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Grief Over the Death of a High Conflict Loved One
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and Oldie podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:22): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:23): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California where we focus on training, consulting and educational programs and methods all to do with high conflict. So today's episode is going to be about death. Yeah. How's that for a big bang at the beginning? It's actually what if you lose someone important to you, a family member, lose them through death, and they happen to have provided a world of high conflict in your life. It can be a confusing time. We're going to talk about that and break that down. But first, a couple of notes. Send your high conflict related questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or through our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast where you'll also find all the show notes and links. Speaker 1 (01:14): Okay, bill. So I don't know, I've had a rash of consultations lately of people who are dealing with, and I know you have too, people who are dealing with the death of a loved one who may have had a high conflict personality or they lost a spouse and there's a high conflict other family member. There can be a million different permutations, I guess. But let's start with the loss of a high conflict loved one. Even though you may have put some boundaries in place and had some really, probably some tough times over a lifetime, there's still a love perhaps for that person in your life. What we're hearing is there's this mixture of grief and relief, and then from that comes guilt for some. So what are your thoughts? Speaker 2 (02:11): That's a really good place to start because when someone passes away, you're supposed to be sad, and yet, if they've been a high conflict family member like a parent, then you really have a sense of relief. You may have been the go-between with that parent and the rest of the world for many years. It's not unusual that you have one of the children kind of devotes themselves to that parent and running interference and helping them out. It's like an alcoholic with someone who's codependent. That can happen. But regardless is that mixed feeling, and it's important to know that that's not unusual. I'm starting to see books about that. There's a woman that has a book, I think she's in her twenties, and said that I was relieved when my mother died and she's coming out with her story. It's not unusual, and you shouldn't judge yourself for that because in a way, your life may be easier. You may be able to have your own identity instead of living through that other person. I think it helps to think of the grieving process. So this is a good time to throw in the five stages of the grieving process. So I'm holding up one hand. Speaker 1 (03:33): I can vouch for that, Speaker 2 (03:35): Right? Only Megan can see that. So the first stage is generally denial. This can't be true. I don't believe it. This isn't happening to me, whatever. It's then the second is anger. Is anger that someone's passing away. Maybe they haven't passed away yet, but they're about to or maybe that they have. And it's like my life was organized around you even though you were difficult. I knew what to do each day and now you're gone. I don't know what to do each day, so I'm angry with you about that. And anger towards a loved one who's passed away is totally normal. Then the third is bargaining. Well, what if I do this? What if I do that? Maybe I won't have to face this loss. And then the fourth is depression or sadness, turning inward, feeling the pain of the loss. And then the fifth stage is acceptance. And I think what happens is a lot of people feel guilty about having anger or about having guilt. Well feel guilty about having guilt Speaker 1 (04:43): Maybe. Yeah, guilt squared. Speaker 2 (04:46): A sense of relief is so understandable. And I know people like this who are really, they don't want people to know how relieved they are. And maybe they're at the funeral or memorial service and they're like, thank you for coming, and it's so sad and all of that. And when that's over, they're like, I'm so relieved that I don't have to keep fighting with this person or keep taking care of their messes, things like that. So it's totally normal and it's important to know that we have these ideals that are unattainable that you can't just totally feel sad about. The loss of someone, even in the grieving stages of the process is anger. So you're going to have all these emotions, and the thing is to allow that Speaker 1 (05:38): And death doesn't automatically qualify someone as a saint, right? Speaker 2 (05:43): Yeah. Speaker 1 (05:44): The past is the past and we're not going to beat someone up over their past. But the death can be a relief. And if others looking in from the outside want you to have more grief, want you to have more sadness and don't understand, maybe some of the relief, number one, they probably just don't understand what you've been through. But there's also this misnomer, I think that we don't speak ill of the dead, Speaker 2 (06:10): Right? Speaker 1 (06:12): So we don't want to accept reality, and I'm not saying to bash someone at the funeral, right? Speaker 2 (06:19): Right, right. That's not a good place to take out your anger towards them. But I think of the daughter of Joan Crawford who wrote the book, mommy Dearest and Mommy Dearest was a tyrannical mother and ruled her life, I think into her thirties, something like that. And finally when she passed away, she was able to have her own life. And you can see the turmoil going through all of that other people's memoirs. It's not unusual if there's a high conflict parent that people really are in agony about that and that we have to have a lot of empathy for them and understanding for the fact that they have anger, et cetera. Now, I want to talk a little bit when you're ready, Megan, about when a high conflict person loses a parent, and what happens with that? Speaker 1 (07:18): Well, one question then we'll go there. What if you're the target of blame of the high conflict person who dies? What's that look like? Speaker 2 (07:25): Yeah. So you've been kind of beaten down and it's all your fault over and over again. And it may be that your siblings join in with that and they've gone, dad was narcissistic and he always blamed second son for everything. And the older son and the younger sister just kind of went along with dad. And so that child felt singled out, usually depressed. Being a target of blame is depressing, and then the person dies. It's kind of disorienting because now what do you do? We don't realize how disorienting that can be, especially when people have grown up in that environment. And now as an adult, that kind of center of the universe is gone. And while it may look freeing, it's also really disorienting and may take a while for them to adjust. We always encourage, go into counseling with that. Grieving. The loss of a parent is a good reason to get some counseling regardless of your relationship, because parents are really the cornerstone of our lives. And whether you're 40 or 50 or 20, it's disorienting and it's sad, and yet you can grieve and heal and cope. And fortunately as human beings, we have that grieving and healing process, those five stages, actually, some people say there's six stages. The six stage is focusing on how to give back to the world. So you kind of turn inward for those five stages. And now how do you give back to the world? How do you help other people? And I like that. Speaker 1 (09:12): Similar to aa, right? Speaker 2 (09:14): Yes. One Speaker 1 (09:14): Of the steps in Alcoholics Anonymous recovery. Speaker 2 (09:17): Yes. Speaker 1 (09:18): Interesting. Okay. So yeah, let's move on to your topic. Speaker 2 (09:22): So I've had this lately is someone typically in their forties who has a high conflict personality, a borderline high conflict personality, narcissistic, but a lot of say borderline with mood swings and all of that. And their parent doesn't have a personality disorder, isn't high conflict, but has been kind of the rock in their family and taking care of them and just always there. And they often get beat up by the high conflict person, you did it all wrong, you abused me as a child, do all these things. And then that parent dies. And what I've seen is it's often extremely destabilizing. And if they're married, that's the time in which they often turn on their spouse. And the spouse, I end up consulting with the spouse and the spouse is, I don't know what hit me, but her mother died and now she hates my guts. Speaker 2 (10:23): Well, she's going through the anger of the grieving process, and you're the person there to do that with because her mother's gone now. And if you can is to ride that out or get some couples counseling or get her into some counseling so that she can process this. Because what I see is a lot of people with personality disorders, especially borderline personality disorder, to some extent, histrionic personality disorder is it really does destabilize them and they're really lost, and yet they're venting at the people close to them and at risk of really losing their whole support system. And you want to help the person not push everybody away and yet understand this is a time of anger as well as sadness. But people are surprised by that. And I'm surprised sometimes how dramatic almost a personality change is that happens when they lose a parent and they're like in their forties with a personality disorder. Speaker 1 (11:32): Like you said, the word destabilize just captures that perfectly, just rocks their world. And then the angst and all the emotion around it pivots Speaker 2 (11:42): To Speaker 1 (11:42): Someone still living in their life. A really interesting concept, and I'm seeing this and hearing about this from people who make a decision at a point life to discontinue a relationship with someone, let's say ex-spouses, right? One of them is just like the mother, let's say, is just creating all kinds of havoc for the teenage children and the ex-husband and the ex-husband. After the girls are are raised and maybe 20, 21 years old says, okay, I'm going to no longer communicate with your mother because, and I've let her know this because we don't have anything left to communicate about. And what I've seen is this destabilization in the children, even if they're fairly stable in their relationship with the dad and seem to have a firm footing, there's a shift like, okay, now there's one tie that's broken a bit. My dad has broken that contact with mom and the kid. Then even adult child struggles a bit because they feel destabilized, whether they're twenties or thirties. Have you seen that? Speaker 2 (12:56): Yeah. Yeah. Maybe if there's a universal statement to come out of this is that family relationships are complicated and yet they're a source of stability for our identity and our future. And yet, especially when there's complicating factors, which could be a physical illness as well as a personality disorder or something else, that this is really possible to be really destabilizing. And the thing is, I think from this whole discussion, we're not diagnosing anybody. We're not judging people. In fact, we have a lot of empathy for people that have to go through these things. We want people to understand that what's happening to you isn't just to you. There's a lot of people going through similar things. We're human beings and we need loving and caring. And some people have more difficulty giving that than others. And you have a right to find that and to find people who can be loving and caring, even if your own relative or own adult children can't do that. But twenties and thirties, even forties, the destabilization that can happen with a loss of a parent can spill out onto everybody. We see a lot of high conflict divorces happen when someone loses a parent. I've just seen that lately. And at first it didn't make sense. What changed? Well, he or she became completely different after their parent died. Speaker 2 (14:36): Now things are starting to make sense. So get some counseling, don't go it alone. Speaker 1 (14:43): And I think what I've observed is people feeling kind of guilty sometimes about the shift maybe in after someone passes, that gives them that relief. And we've talked a bit about that, and I think we want to acknowledge that. Look, the high conflict person in your life, that person who you had real relationship troubles with, they came from a recipe and it's just a little bit different than yours. And those recipes, the bad recipes, I shouldn't say bad, but those that aren't super healthy, the stuff that happened to each person from childhood on makes us who we are and the squeezes we get from society and the messaging we get from society and the role modeling that we have shapes us into who we are. And so I think that's where we can have that compassion. And like you said, bill, we have a lot of empathy for all people because a lot of this, there's a lot of struggle with it, but it's also okay for the person who maybe is that young person that's feeling some relief from this, and it's okay to chart your own path. It's okay to have the real feelings that you have Speaker 2 (15:54): And find people you can talk to about it, because that just normalizes things to know I'm going through a human experience and there's other humans that care and want to help and maybe understand. And that's what we all need because ultimately we're all on the same team. This is about being human beings, not about bad people and good people and stuff like that. This is part of modern life, but maybe part of human life forever. Speaker 1 (16:27): Absolutely. So another little shift here with a case I've recently observed is when sort of a narcissistic parent dies, now we've got to go through probate. Speaker 1 (16:40): The family has to go, which is tenuous in the best of circumstances, but let's say someone who really didn't have much or any planning done, and in the case I've been observing and working with them on, what I've learned is there's nothing like the filing of probate to become the target of blame and to bring together the other siblings as a united front when they've never really gotten along before. It's almost like, I don't know if it's, theres nothing like high conflict or nothing like a target of blame to bring people together of opposing views. You know what I mean? Speaker 2 (17:24): Yeah. And actually I think that's a little bit of human nature is we tend to, in many situations, form two opposing teams. And so if there's somebody that you're opposing, you're going to try to collect other people to help you oppose that person. The negative advocates of a high conflict person. And I think we all get pulled into being advocates, and we don't always realize when we're on the wrong side, or maybe there shouldn't be sites, but we're seeing that, I talked to estate planning, elder lawyers, probate lawyers. We're seeing much more family conflict come out in the probate and estate process. It's not all that different from high conflict divorce cases, but there may be several people involved. And so you never know if one sibling's going to be the target of blame for everybody or they're going to be two sides, two teams. Speaker 2 (18:31): But generally the problem comes up high conflict. People think in all or nothing terms, so they see people as all good and all bad. The reality is that's not really true. And if you're in a group where you start seeing the group organizing itself against itself, two teams against each other, that's often there's a high conflict person kind of emotionally driving that. And you can pull the plug on that and say, hang on. We're not two teams where one team and we have some disagreements and we can manage them because it's human beings. It's easy to pull us into warfare, and it's not a healthy thing. As we can see around the world that warfare isn't really the way we're going to successfully solve our human problems. It's going to be working together Speaker 1 (19:25): And really not letting yourself get all worried and involved in that conflict and instead just keep really driving toward a reasonable goal and not get sidelined or get upset or histrionic over every little thing that's coming up and the targets and the arrows that are coming your way and just be matter of fact and focus on the goal Speaker 2 (19:51): And the positive in each other. Sometimes that helps. You can stop and think that what's positive about Sister Sue who can be very difficult sometimes, but she also makes a really great lasagna, or she's really fun sometimes. Speaker 1 (20:10): Yeah, she's really good with kids or she has a wonderful way with, or pets or whatever. And then there's that dialectic. There's positive qualities in everyone. And reminding ourselves, I think it's training your brain what you're saying Bill, is don't just focus on a negative. You got to balance it with some positive, and it helps you to get through it, and it takes a little bit of the fight out of you, I think, as well. Speaker 2 (20:40): Yeah, because I think high conflict people are stuck in all or nothing, and the people who aren't high conflict need to tell themselves and tell others, we can get along and let's do that, and let's have common goals and let's have respect for each other, and empathy and attention Speaker 1 (21:02): Exactly from the beginning of life to the end. And with that, I thank you for all of that, bill, and I hope our listeners were, some of you might be in a situation like this or have already been or will be in the future, so hopefully this will be helpful. Next week we're going to have a guest with us, Rihanna. Jamal. I think you'll really enjoy listening to Bill and Rihanna talk about a new book they've written that will be coming out soon called Biff for Lawyers and Law Offices, and it's about those written communications that lawyers have, and it is a fantastic book, so we'll want you to come back and listen to that. In the meantime, send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast and we'd love it if you tell your friends about us and we'd be grateful if you'd leave a review. Until next time, keep striving toward the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.