Latest / To All the Men I've Tolerated Before / What is a Woman? With Sara Caplan

Transcript

What is a Woman? With Sara Caplan · To All the Men I've Tolerated Before

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey everyone, this is Natalie with your pre show reminder
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  Speaker 1: by me about the misogyny in real time I am experiencing,
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  Speaker 1: will report on misogyny within the world, within my own life,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: media that is confronting misogyny or god forbid, perpetuating misogyny,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: and some advice that is better served behind a pay
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: wall because we all know how mouthy I can get,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: so please enjoy this episode and then after the show,
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• 1:33
  Speaker 1: to help me build a tolerator community. Love you all,
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: talk to you soon, Hey tolerators, This is to all
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: the men I've tolerated before with family Katona, your weekly
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: look at everyday misogyny. Today, our guest is Sarah Kaplan,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: who I was lucky enough to meet at her one
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: woman show What Is a Woman? At gen Con. Sarah
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: is an improv comedian, trans woman, and a philosophy student
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: who has spent her life thinking about the nature of womanhood.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: And I am so excited to talk to you today.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Welcome Sarah, Thank you so much.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: I'm so excited to be here, and I just want
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: to just one's tiny correction.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Oh no, what did I do?
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: You didn't do anything wrong. The full name of my
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: one woman show is what is a Woman? Colon a
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: one woman parentheses, question mark parentheses show.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Well, that is not what they printed on my gen
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Con event ticket, now is it. Now?
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: They're a bunch and that that's misogyny.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: And I will be calling them as I drink from
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: my twenty seven dollars gen Con cop M that I
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: got praying into buying. But okay, now, that we have
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: that out of the way and that we've officially said
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: fuck you, gen Con and how we met. Why don't
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: you introduce yourself and give the listeners some backgrounds since
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: you're a new friend to the show, and how your
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: show came to be.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, you hit all the major points. I let's
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: see how that show came to be is I'm primarily
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: an improviser. I am in my comfort zone when nothing
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: is planned and there is no script, and scripts actually
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: scare me. I know for a lot of people the
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: idea of improv is what's frightening, But for me, scripts
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: mean you can do something wrong, and I'm a bit
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: of a perfectionist. So this show was my first foray
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: into it would be a lie to call it scripted
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: because there is still no script, but into something with
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: a more of a pre planned structure in an overall
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: thesis that I try to consistently make. And I am
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: very lucky to be friends with this trans guy named
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Laser who organized the Joy Who Lived Theater Festival and
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Independent Trans Theater Festival here in Los Angeles as counter
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: programming to our prestige theater space, putting up Harry Potter
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: and the Cursed Child, and so Laser and his friend's
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: his friend Pete Gibson and his partner Maddox organized this
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: festival and Laser reached out to me and said, do
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: you want to be part of it? And I said,
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: of course I do. And I pitched the name of
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: the show as a joke first before I knew what
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: it would be. And then I had like four months
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: to figure out what the show was. And there's a
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: really rewarding process. Was it was super fun and for me,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: it meant a return to my academic roots, which in
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: undergrad were in philosophy that I had kind of stopped
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: thinking about for a decade because philosophy is bad for
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: you and it's a poison for the brain. But this
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: was a fun way to return to it. And I'm
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: actually next week starting a master's program in philosophy. As
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: a result of doing the research for this show, I
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: was inspired to go back to school.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that that was the connection. I knew
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: that you were pursuing the master's because I follow you
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: on socials and I know things now, but I didn't
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: know that that was the connection. That it all comes
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: back to the One Woman's Show. That's awesome.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's twofold. It was the One Woman's show. And
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: also I got cut from my Herald team, which is
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: a kind of improv team at the Upright Citizens Brigade
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: here in LA. And I panicked because I had been
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: putting off having any sort of reasonable plan for even
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: the near future. And I got cut from my improv team.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: And I submitted my application that night because I just
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: picked something else.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: I love that. I am a fairly new I used
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: to do improv in high school at a cold Stone
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: creamery lobby.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Where'd you grow up?
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: Northwest Indiana? So right across the lake from Chicago?
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, you can stand to grow up for improv?
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah uh? And it was my crush from speech
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: and debate was like, what if we did improv? I've
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: watched TUESDA line and with all the confidence of a
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: white man, he was like, we can do this, and
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: I was like, I'll do anything, including be at a
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: cold Stone on Tuesday nights.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: I'm sure the poor families trying to get ice cream
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: after soccer practice were thrilled.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well, and then we'd have to stop whatever
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: bullshit we were doing so they could sing for their tips,
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: so it was just a really winning combination. But I'm
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: bad at scripted stuff too. It's why I've always wanted
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: to be a talk show host and then eventually just went, oh,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: you can do that on your own now because of
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: the Internet, you don't have to wait for ABC to
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: ask you to be a talk show host. But I'm
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: so bad at scripted stuff, especially in speech and debate.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: But I tried to do a scripted version of this
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: show that mirrored late night television called The Misogyny Meltdown,
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: and I liked my monologue, I could not deliver it,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: and I was like, well, maybe if I start in
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: prov classes again, I'll get better at performing.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: It's just a completely different kind of performance. Like when
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: I was first planning for the my solo show, I
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: felt like I had to script it, like that felt
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: like what you're supposed to do, and I had to
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: with the guidance of my Metamor, who's a very talented,
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: like sketch comedy director. I needed them to give me
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: permission to be like, well, you don't have to, like,
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be scripted if you know what
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: you're going to say loosely, And that made my life
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: so much better.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually really appreciate that advice because I've been
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: so I'm in a year long writing program and I've
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: been doing the screenwriting route of this program, plus also
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: trying to sneak in writing stand up comedy bits to
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: again try to be better at performing. And I was
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: just like, for this podcast, I just write down a
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: loose outline and then I don't look at it. And
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: I was like, well, that's how I'll do stand up
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: And then I realized, no, that's how you get up
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: on stage with all the confidence of a white man
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: and you bomb.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: It depends some people that is how they do stand up,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, and some people have it like scientifically analyzed
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: and practiced down to the exact number of milliseconds. They
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: pause to take a breath, like everyone is different.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: That makes me feel so much better. I'm sorry you
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: got cut from your hel Harald team, and I'm sorry
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: if that caused pain and strife with you and ubc UCB.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: Oopsie, no, no, it's it's it is so totally fine.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Well, so how did the show come to gen Con?
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: The show came to gen Con because I was already
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: going to gen Con with my improv team Chill Touch
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: that plays there. And so basically, after I did the
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: show the first time, I posted clip from it which
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: some of your listeners might have seen, which is me
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: asking the audience which objects are chairs and which are
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: not chairs. And I posted that video on Instagram and
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: it exploded in a way I never could have predicted,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: because I had eleven hundred followers when I posted the video,
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: and that was the beginning of April, and as of
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: the start of August, I had like forty five thousand followers,
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: and I can still look at the analytics on Instagram
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: and see that something like ninety something percent of all
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: of those followers came from that one video, And I
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: don't know what it is. Something about it hit the
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: algorithm in the right way, and that was very weird
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: and cool and exciting, and in a fit of optimism,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: I was like, maybe I'll bring this show to gen Con,
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: And so I reached out to Laser, who used to
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: do shows at gen Con and those people there, and
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: it was already after the show's admission window had closed,
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: and Laser just emailed someone and it was like, can
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: she do this show? And I guess, if you know
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: the right, people, you can get away with that.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm convinced that the they're always So I
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: build out my gen Con schedule months ahead of time
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: because I want it. I want to see certain people
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: at certain times and whatnot. And then I'll get I'll
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: wake up Saturday and there will be something that I
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: can't fit into my schedule that I'm like, I really
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: want to see this though, and it's because they added
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: it the night before.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so every year it was pretty random. It's
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's a weird fit for the con. Like
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: what my initial hope was to do it offsite. Just
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: while I was in Indianapolis, I was like, as an experiment,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: what happens if I tried to do this in a
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: different city. And it's just really hard to book it
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: off site space and it costs money. And if you
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: do a show through gen Con, it's free and so
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: it's kind of risk free for me, which is great
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: because only twenty people showed up and that's actually that's fine,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: like since I didn't have to pay to rent the
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: theater space or anything. And I don't know why gen
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Con put me in the giant Great Train Hall. I
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: think it's because it was scheduled so late, just all
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: the reasonable spaces were taken. But I liked just sitting
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: and having more of a performance conversation with a small
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: audience like that.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I so okay about the what is the chair?
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: What is a chair? Game? Right before I had gone
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: to your show, a couple of days beforehand, one of
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: my writing teachers had posed a question because she's also
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: working on a screenplay around this idea, and she was like,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: could everyone give me their death mission of love? And
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: I panic because I'm like, no, yeah, you can't. And
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: then we get to what is a chair? And I
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: was like, well, I can define a chair. You know,
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: you have to sit on it and it has like
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: four legs, and that's definitely a bench, which is a
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: category of seated furniture, but not a chair. And then
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: I got actually level pedant tric no podantic pedantic about it,
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: and no, it's a fun little exercise.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and it's not actually leveled pedantic in
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: the right context. That's that's the point for me, is
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: that is what philosophy is. Like my advisor in undergrad
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: always started every one of her intro classes by telling
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: the students that philosophy is thinking in slow motion, and
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: it's where you take seriously all those little questions that
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: other disciplines need to ignore if they're going to be
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: able to do anything. And you know if you are,
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: if you're trying to do a physics problem and you
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: stop the professor and you're like, well, you're asking me
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: to calculate the moment of inertia of a chair, but
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure what a chair is, then yeah,
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: you'll get kicked out of the classroom. But if you're
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: doing that in a philosophy class, they're like, good point,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: We actually do need to investigate that before we can
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: make any points involving the idea of chair. And it's
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: important for some people to do that because otherwise stuff
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: gets slipped in to common sense or to like common
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: belief systems that haven't actually been considered.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would love to reconst or not reconsider, revisit
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: my philosophy brain. I took exactly one philosophy class in college,
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: and it was on accident. It was listed as a
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: literature class, and it was with a professor that I liked,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: and I remember I and I don't know if it's
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: the Capricorn in me or like my defiant daddy issues
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: or all of it. But like if you question me
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: possibly four times on the same thing, now I'm annoyed.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: And so he had pushed me to that point and
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: I looked at him and I went, hey, you listed
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: this class as a literature class, and I read the
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: book I'm not I'm not. I can't help it that
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: you also are double dipping with philosophy. And he's like, okay.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: It was like, I'm just here from my English credit.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think that is sort of how
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: a healthy brain responds to philosophy.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Oh that's not where I thought that would go.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: No, Like, I'm I think philosophy is important. It's I
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: wrote an essay about this few months ago. But the
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: way I see it is philosophy is bad for you.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: It is maladaptive. It makes you distracted by things that
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: prevent you from interacting with the real world and like
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: caring about stuff that matters and moving forward because you
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: are so stuck on things like but what is a chair?
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: Though?
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: What is blue? Like what if the color blue I
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: see as different from the color blue you see that
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: other people are capable of entertaining and seeing like I
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: think a healthy human, a healthy smart human, can understand
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: why that question is interesting, but then has very strong
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: mental safety nets that prevent them from considering it for
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: too long, which is, as you described in your case,
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: getting annoyed. And I tend to think, like the image
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: I always have of it is as humans are existential position,
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: as that we live on a castle in the clouds,
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: impossibly floating above the endless void. And someone whose brain
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: is like philosophically inclined, they have like a rope maybe
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: that's tied around their waist, and they jump down into
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: the void and they get stuck there looking at questions
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: that they can't resolve, and in order to get back
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: to the castle, that takes a lot of work to
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: like ignore all that stuff and climb back up the rope.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Whereas a healthy human brain, it's more like a bungee cord.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Like you can jump down, you can see the void,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: and then your brain is going to bounce you right
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: back up to the shit that like impacts your daily
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: life more directly. And yeah, oh.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: That's a good visual. Okay. Can I relate your show
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: to gaming for a second, because oh please, Okay, you
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: did do a metaphor that I thought would be particularly
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: helpful when talking to people. Because the reason why I
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: love that you did this show in Indiana is because
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: I am constantly so I m usually met with people
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: in the Midwest, or family members or friends of family
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: members with people who do not have queer people, trans people,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: people of color, anyone who doesn't look or act like
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: them in their like initial friend group. And you said
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: something about how people trans people break the rules, the
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: gaming rules in people's heads. Could you go into a
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: little bit so I don't butcher your point there.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So the whole point of the show for listeners
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: for me is trying to think about specifically, like I
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: was basically tired of asking my sister, friends and family,
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: like why do they keep attacking trans people? Why does
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: the right keep attacking us like this? And the answer
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: given was well, you're being used as a scapegoat. And
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: it was like, obviously we're being used as a scapegoat,
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: but why us? There's so many groups they could have picked,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: and they have picked a bunch of them, but why
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: are we such a primary one? And so the show
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: has my attempt to sort of think through and figure
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: out what is it about transness and about the nature
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: of gender at a social level that makes SIS people
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: so inclined to be so uncomfortable with us and thus
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: be attracted to systems of thought or propaganda that alleviate
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: that discomfort. And my sort of explanation I come to
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: in the show and still developing outside of it. But gender,
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: if you think of gender as a big elaborate social
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: game system, which I would argue it is, there's all
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: these rules, like no matter how whether or not you
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: even believe and trans people or you think we're mentally insane, Like,
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: it's obviously the case that even if man and women
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: track onto something real and immutable, the way that man
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: and womanhood are lived out in our society is still
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: done along all of these kind of arbitrary social rules.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: So in our society, men behave this way and women
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: behave this way. And you know, in medieval Japan those
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: rules would have been very different. Men have long hair
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: and they wear long robes, and they practice the sword
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: where they master a craft. And in our society, men
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: wear suits and have short hair, and they get really
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: good at day trading crypto. So like, whatever those rules
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: happen to be in your social context, we learn them
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: and we perform them, and that is a big part
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: of how we come to understand our position in society.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: It's how we come to understand ourself. I am a man.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Men do this, and so I do this. I'm a woman,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: women do this, so I do this. And trans people
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: are basically like this immersion breaking phenomenon that comes to
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: the people who are very happily and fully immersed in
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: playing man or woman in their social context, and this
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: trans person comes up and without like, we don't even
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: have to go so far as to say you're doing
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: anything wrong, just by existing and by like, by living
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: out the idea that you can change your role in
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: this societal game. What we do, I think, is we
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: force those cist people to recognize gender man, woman, all
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: these things they're doing. They're forced to confront the fact that, oh, wait,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: this is a game. This isn't just reality that men
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: do this and women do this, Like I'm abiding by
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: this social rule system rather than natural law. And I
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: think people get so much. It's so complicated. Obviously, like
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: you have a whole podcast about gender, but I think
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: people have so much tied up in how they understand
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: themselves and how they understand themselves relative to society and
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: the people around them. So much is rooted in all
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: these assumptions about the nature of gender, the nature of
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: what men and women are. That when trans people come
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: up and say, well, those things are a lot more
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: arbitrary than you realize that could have been otherwise, that
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: that is a like I think that can be an
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: extremely stressful experience. Like if we go back to the
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: castle in a cloud over the void idea of what
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: philosophy is from before, like gender plays a similar space.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: Gender is part of that cloud that people are walking
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: around on, and trans people, by our nature are walking
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: around and being like, hey, you see that void and
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: people hate that, like they hate it. They I think
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: it And I don't think this is like conscious in
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: the idea of your basic transphobe, but I think I
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: think you look at the way you talk. They talk
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: about us, like trans people are the downfall of society.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: People are going to be so confused, you're getting whatever,
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Like I think we are just a walking, talking existential
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: crisis trigger for these people who either on equipped or
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: aren't willing to confront like the unfortunately unstable and uncomfortable
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: existential position that we find ourselves in as humans.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think what it hit for me as
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: I was re listening to it and as I listen
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: to it at gen con is society does a really
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: great job of making us feel very secure in our
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: gender role while also making sure that we're insecure the
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: entire time.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's in this. I didn't get into it
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: in this part of the show, but so much. I
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: think there's all these different psychologies of transphobia, Like people
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: come at it from all these different ways, but one
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: hundred percent, like if you look at the mano sphere
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: as a phenomenon, it is rooted on a generalized insecurity
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: among these guys of like, oh, I need to learn
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: how to better perform man. I am not being man
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: good enough. And then you have these guys who are
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: like aesthetically aligned with the masculine norm saying, oh, well,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: it's easy, you want to be more man, Like never
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: listen to your girlfriend. Do you want to be more man?
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: You got to work out every day? Like they just
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: give you easy things to do for you to say like, Okay,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I just have to do that and then I'll be man.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Because when I'm confronted with transphobia or truly any I'm
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: a SIS woman who was lucky enough to move out
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: of her hometown and experience diversity and then came back
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: to her hometown to be like, Hey, diversity is a thing,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: and I'm in a lot of conversations with the people
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: a lot of time that make my eye twitch, and
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: I find a lot of ego in it, Like, well,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: but I learned in third grade that men do this
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: and women do this, And you're trying to tell me
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: that my third grade science background is in fact false.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: But my third grade teacher was a nice lady, And honestly,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: it boils down to that. Sometimes.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think in general, and I don't know how
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: much this is just like a human species level problem
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: or it has something to do with modern culture or
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: our modern cultures. People are extremely uncomfortable being uncertain. They
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: want to We want to know things. We want like
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: we get annoyed right when our literature professor starts pushing
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: us on philosophy questions that we don't have answers to,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: and it's annoying to not be able to answer it.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: And we either want to just pick an answer and
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: go with it, or we want to pretend the question
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: doesn't matter, and we want to say, well, that's just
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: I'm actually right, and I think we all do that,
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: and I yeah, and i'd imagine, like I didn't grow
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: up religious, imagine if you're coming out of a religious
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: context where things are presented as being certain, rigid, clear
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: founded on this strong basis, that that's really hard to
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: move away from. I think that's I think that's like
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: so nice and soothing that it becomes addictive probably, And yeah,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: people don't want to have to question the systems that
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: they use to find comfort in an uncertain and terrifying world.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Well, and people don't want to be the first person
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: to take the step out of the norm where it's
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: like I was one of the first people in my
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: family to step out and be like, hey, there are
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: all of these different experiences that we never experience as
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: privileged white CIS people. And you do face a lot
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: of backlash in your church community, or your family community,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: or your conservative community. And it, honestly, and I also
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: had to grapple with this. It gave me a lot
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: of empathy back towards the people I've had to have
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: these terrible conversations with because I was like, oh, okay,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: you're having a fear response.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's just confusing. I mean, I didn't know
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: what trans people were when I graduated high school, and
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: the first time I encountered a non binary person in college,
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: I one hundred percent had this gut reaction of like, Okay, well,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: they're lying, they're doing this for attention, they're being dramatic.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: This doesn't make sense. And because I didn't understand it,
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: and I still don't know what that person's experience was,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: and I think it, I don't know how I would
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: have continued to feel about it if I weren't myself
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: trans and like had this because I'm otherwise also a
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: privileged white person, so I can one hundred percent understand
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: like the temptation to dismiss that I think people have,
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: and if I didn't have this part of myself and
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: my own experience that forced me to grapple with the
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: fact that, like, Okay, sometimes we are different from what
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: we're told is the norm, and sometimes we are different
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: from what people expect. And I can see all these
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: people who I think are good, nice, thoughtful, smart people
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: failing to listen to and accept me and what I'm
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: trying to tell them about my experience, and then that
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: like kind of unless you want to be a blatant hypocrite,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: like that forces you to consider, okay, so what are
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: all the experiences I don't have that I haven't been
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: open to hearing thus far? And that unfortunately took for me.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: It did take, like I had this personal experience of it,
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: and that taught me to look for it in others.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: I wish i'd been more just naturally, like the perfect
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: empathetic ally.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: No, that was never me either, except for maybe that
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: one day where I was like, shit, do I have
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: to forgive my dad a little? I don't want to.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: I don't want to, but I might have to because
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: it's a fear response. But I also haven't because I
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: also told you this will help me win a lot
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: of fights at Thanksgiving. But then I sat with it
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: and I was like, well, telling people that they're having
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: a fear response is also something that elicits anger and
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: denial in people. If you're going, hey, you're just acting
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: from a place that doesn't understand this, so your body
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: is kicking in the fear drive. That also makes people upset.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you figure out how to consistently talk
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: to someone who starts from that position and get them
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: to a place of open minded learning. Please let me know.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: I will, I will let everyone know that will be
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: becoming TikTok famous? Is that? Yeah? No, because I think
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: about all of that. So my parallel to this is
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: when I was in high school, women who experimented physically
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: or sexually with other women, I was like attention seeking
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: hoes who are just doing tricks at parties. And then
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: I became a woman in her early thirties that was
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: talking to a friend about our Catholic upbringing on a
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: hot microphone on her podcast, and the friend had to
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: stop me mid sentence and go, Namply, you're saying that
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: you're attracted to women, but God told you not to be.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, I go, I'm straight because
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: God and my dad told me I had to be.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: And she was like yeah, and I was like ooh.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: And now I'm a woman in her mid thirties who,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: luckily her family never has to confront this truth about
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: her because I'm always so single. But I have to
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: constantly remind my mom, Mom, I told you that in
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Aunt Melissa's basement, Like I held both of your hands,
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm going to date women now,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: and you pretended to be okay with it. I just remember,
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: and she's like no, And my husband doesn't remember this either,
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: and he goes and I go cause he wasn't. In
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: the basement, it was you and my favorite aunt, and
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: we were having a conversation about why I brought my
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: friend Annie to dad's wedding, and I was like, well,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: Annie's my great friend and she's probably my sole life partner.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: But also I'm going to start actively dating women. I
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: only prefer the company of women, it turns out, and
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: you guys like, oh, okay.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's that's good. I mean, I'm happy
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: for you, thank you, But that your friend pointed that
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: out on a hot mic. Yeah, but sometimes that's the only.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Way I mean. And again, I was always dating from
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: either a performance. Because someone asked me like, well, what
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: do you think authentic dating is to you? And I go,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know, because I've always been performing what I
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: thought my mother, who grew up very hot, would want
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: me to be experiencing. While I'm dating. It's like, well,
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: I got to be a hot girl because mom was hot,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: So this is what that looks like.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: M No, yeah, so do you in retrospect you think
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: you were never actually attracted to men?
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: It's hard because Pedro Pascal exists and Papa Pascal exists. Also,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: I am a One Tree Hill fan. I don't know
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: if you had a teen soap opera of choice, but
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: Chad Michael Murray's was mine. And I went and saw
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: one of the musical artists that came out of One
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Tree Hill at a show on last weekend, and he
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: was so charming and funny that I was like, I
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: would spend time with him at a dinner. So I
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: think it's more of a pan sexuality by sexuality, I
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: don't think I I I think out of the men
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: that I've dated, I probably really really had affection for one. Yeah,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: isn't that sad?
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah? And I'm sure if you're one of those guys listening,
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: you were the one.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Buddy. It's you, buddy, I promise, I promise, Uh, You're
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: not blocked from my damns. It's fine, like yeah, no, yeah,
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: And I mean I had fun while I was dating
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: and doing all that jazz or whatever. But when it
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: comes down to like, again, what is the definition of sexuality?
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: Was the definition of gender? What is the definition of love?
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: I'm constantly going, look, I don't know.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, asking someone to define love is kind of crazy
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: to me. That's I mean, asking someone to define any emotion.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, can you even define, like define anger?
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: No, it's like, well, there's a million different kinds. Yeah,
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: and it's like a visceral, direct experience that I can't
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: put into words because it's not a concept.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and gender expression wise too, because I was
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: always performing heterosexuality, like you know, it's the whole My
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: legs are always shaved because you never know when opportunity
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: is going to strike, I guess, and makeup is always
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: on to go to the grocery store. And it's exhausting
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: these rules, And we talk about it a lot on
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: the show, how like the rules of gender norms are
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: also there to exhaust us to the point where we're
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: not thinking beyond them.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think a lot of specifically those like the
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: norms of femininity, especially the ones that started evolving in
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: the kind of fifties housewife culture, because like you're most
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: women in the eighteen hundreds. Sure, maybe if you find
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: yourself at Versailles or something, you're constantly performing in that way.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: But most women in the eighteen hundreds, we're working a
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: pre industrialization for sure. Like you're in your home, you're
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: helping with the farm, you're cooking, you're you and your
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: husband are both alternating between like darning all of the
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: clones and collecting firewood whatever, Like no one gives a
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: shit if your legs are shaved or you're wearing makeup.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Would be this for volity for the vast majority of people,
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: or you do it for fun if you want to. Yeah,
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: but yeah, all those norms that started evolving, and then
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: unfortunately you have to start talking about capitalism and the
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: ways that like women were turned into a consumer class
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: and femininity became a commodity that you had to purchase
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: and keep up with. And yeah, it's it's a bummer.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, I like having smooth legs personally because I
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: think they feel sleek and fun. But that's why I
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: had my legs repeatedly shot with lasers because I don't
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: want to shave them.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, good on you.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Oh it's actually it's fantastic. Look, if you prefer the
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: feeling of having clean legs, which is me, I hate
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: the feeling of leg hair on sheets for since laser
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: hair removal is amazing.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, good on you. I would love to have.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: I So, before I was a podcaster and a broke writer,
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: I was a broke educator and I taught in Catholic schools.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: So disposable income for lasers to be shot at me
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: has never been a thing.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it is a It is a privileged thing
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: to be able to do, for sure.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I well, and then you mentioned the second
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: enemy of this podcast, which is capitalism. Because the thing
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: about misogyny, racism, homophobia, and transphobia and capitalism is they're
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: all best friends.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Capitalism isn't like the cause of those things,
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: but it's certainly like some Yeah.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: Well, and it certainly like ran by them.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it changed them, It took them and distorted them
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: and reapplied them to the world for its own use.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And yeah it And again the philosophy metaphor,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: because I experienced this. It's like you dip your toe
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: in and you're like, I think misogyny is bad, and
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: then before you know it, you're like at the bottom
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: of an eight foot pool trying to like gather pennies
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: because you're like, oh, it's all bad.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it turns out everything is actually pretty bad.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: It's all bad in August of twenty twenty five.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like it didn't. It's so frustrating because it did
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: not have to be like that. That and that's part
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: of the game thing, Like everything about the way our
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: world works right now, where is the result of these
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: human decisions. Like no one sat down and designed, designed
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: how capitalism would look in twenty twenty five, but it
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: is the end result of choices humans continued making and
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: limited like a very tiny number of humans and then
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: like imposed it on the rest of us. And yeah,
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: I really really hate it.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: I hate it so much. And Okay, can I tell
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: you about a horrific conversation that I had at gen CONM. Yes,
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: so I don't know if you're plugged into critical role,
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: but they not at all. Okay, Well, they were doing
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: a lot of dagger heart stuff. And again, this is
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: a D and D podcast, and I make my listeners
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: listen to my D and D and drop out TV
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: bullshit all the time. And they're like, yeah, Ny, we
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: know the dungeons and the dice. But they were they
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: were doing a lot to promote their new tea RPG system,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Dagger Heart, And in the car on the way back
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: to my Airbnb so I could go to the Critical
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: Role live show, someone asked me, Nady, why is everyone
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: so mad at Wizards of the Coast? And I'm not
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: an expert in this at all. There are way better
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: tiktoks that I could have just sent that person than
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: try to give the timeline to why people are so
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: mad about Wizards of the Coast. And I was like, well,
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: I go. It kind of all started with, you know,
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: inherent racism and bias against women and Jewish people and
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: people of color, with the Drow and goblins and different
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: strength modifiers for women and stuff like that. I go.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: And then it kind of morphed into capitalism where they
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: were going to take money away from tiny streamers just
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: trying to pay their rent because Critical Role was popular
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: and making money, so they were like, oh, then we
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: should be making money too, and we'll just charge licensing fees.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: I go. And then ai Art was another one. I go.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: It was just like all of these little things of
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: not understanding how your fan base had evolved past the
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: people who were running your company, and I was told well,
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: none of that should matter because it's fantasy. Dragons aren't real,
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: so there can't be inherent bias when it comes to elves.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: And I went, oh, okay. I was like, but there is.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: And we now have an entire career dedicated where people
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: go in and tell you where the inherent bias is
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: in whatever it is you're doing. They're diversity and consultants,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: and they were like mm hmmm, because when I'm playing,
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: I'm not thinking about racial tensions, so it's not real.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: And I was like okay, and then I just jump
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: into the void. At that point, that's when I actually
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: leap away from the castle to bee like I'll just
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: live here.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I'm really happy for that person. I
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: bet they're happier than I am, honest, But yeah, no,
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's pretty stupid. If you're listening, I
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: don't know who you are. If you're listening, no offense
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: to you. That is pretty stupid.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: So and again it's that fear response that like, well,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: somehow I got tricked into doing something wrong and I
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: don't believe I'm a bad person, and it's like okay.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: And I think it's also that immediate jump to if
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: I recognize that, like the way I was playing the
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: half orcs in the campaign I was running, now that
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: I think about it is probably racist. Like I don't,
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: I'm realizing I was leaning on a lot of tropes
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: about POC to play those characters, and that's bad. I
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: should reconc it or that. I think people fear that
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: if they acknowledge that, then that does mean I'm a
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: bad person, and so they know, well, I'm not a
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: bad person, so air go this thing is false. But
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: it's that's not actually how it works. Like, it doesn't
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: mean you're a bad person. If you're you're relying on
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: sexist or racist tropes in your game unconsciously, it means
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: you are a part of a misogynist and racist culture.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: And all of the tropes you fall back on when
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: you play your story fantasy game are going to be
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: infused with those ideas, and if you aren't like actively
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: trying to root them out, of course it will slip
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: into your gameplay. That doesn't make you good or bad.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: It's not about being a good or bad person.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: Well yeah, and when it comes to the am I
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: a good person or am I a bad person? It's
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: like do you watch Black Mirror?
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I do.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: Do you remember the Bryce Dallas Howard episode where you
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: got like scenreal time and they came across your forehead
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: or whatever, and you got like social points and consequences it.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: I don't think people realize how much that episode might
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: actually be the best reflection of what we have going
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: currently on with online culture and stuff like that, where
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: everyone is like, well, I can't be caught being bad.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to write a notes app apology and
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: those get made fun of all the time.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean to me, I think on both
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: sides of that equation, it's against this very Christian idea
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: of like there's good people and bad people, and people
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: and everything ties together, of course, but there's good people
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: and bad people. And in order to avoid having to
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: confront the complexity of life as an imperfect social being
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: with imperfect information, like I need to divide the world
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: into good people and bad people. I need to be
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: a good people and which, Yeah, it's both sides. People
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: are terrified of being the bad people. And then also
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: people are like unfortunately always trying to divide the world
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: into good people and bad people, and they see it
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: as this binary thing.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and I especially see it in my more
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: you know conservative people who are in my purview, where
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: it's like there's such an anxiety about like being wrong
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: or doing something wrong or saying something wrong, and it's
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: as silly as so. I had to leave my cat
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: for gen Con. She couldn't come. She refuses to be
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: in a catapack or stroller. No, it's her fault. She
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: has too much pride. And I told her I'd be
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: a lady who put her in a purse, but she
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: doesn't like it. And you know, the person who was
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: taking care of her, it was the first time he
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: was taking care of her, and I had like, so
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: we're both medicated, we both have depression and anxiety. We're
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: both medicated queens. I had cut up all of her
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: little pills, put them in the thane, told hey, you
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: crush it up, you mix it into her food, you
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: go about your day. I didn't tell them she's also
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: a grazer, Like, she's not going to take that pill
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: right away, and she's actually going to fight you all
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: day about it and make you feel bad for not
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: giving her her dry food that she also doesn't want
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: to eat. She just wants it to be in her
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: bowl to prove a point. So he got really nervous,
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: and like when I came home on Sunday, she was
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: actually like locked into the bathroom, which is a new
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: thing for her, and she was really pissed at me,
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god. I was like,
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: did she have like one of her angry episodes? Like
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: did she hiss? Did she attack someone? Was she like
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: trying to get out the windows at Barbard's or something
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: like the reason why she's medicated is because she's violent
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: when she isn't. And I was trying to get information
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: and the people and I had to go through a
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: second party to try and get my information. And I
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: was like, hey, could you ask him how many pills
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: she took today, or like why she was in the
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: bathroom or anything. And immediately they were like, he would
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: have followed your instructions, and I was like, hey, again,
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: I'm not crying. I'm not screaming. I just need to
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: know if my cat starts foaming at the mouth, what
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: happened when I wasn't here, So I don't look like
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: an idiot in front of the vet. Because she's already
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: pretty judgy of me because I'm already anxious when I'm
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: there and on the verge of tears.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, nobody's in trouble. I do simply need information about
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: my cat, right, But it.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: Was something as simple of that as out where I
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: was like, I'm just trying to figure out if she's
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: been under medicated over medicated, like what are my next
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: steps going forward? And it turned out it was all
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: he got nervous because she wasn't eating, because she was
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: on a hunger strike, because she was pissed, and so
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: he locked her in the bathroom and hopes that she
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: would eat, and of course she didn't eat until I
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: was at home, and of course my anxiety was, like,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: that's more food than should be in that pol did
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: he just put medicated food on top of medicated food
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: and hopes that she would eat, And of course that's
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: not what happened. It was my anxiety at leaving my
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: precious baby home. But again, it's that whole fear of
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: like and think, and I think that was another layer
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: to it, where it's like, oh, we never actually move
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: forward in knowledge or empathy or understanding of other people
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: in their experiences because we stay in that defensive I
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: didn't do anything wrong. They didn't do anything wrong. I
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: did exactly what you asked and how you asked it.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: It must be so frustrating and be a divorce lawyer, yeah.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a bummer like it. And I also don't
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: think that's the way our culture has to be either.
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: But that's I mean. I think a lot of that
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: comes from Christianity and other forms of religion where you
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: have good or bad people and salvation or not salvation.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: I think that also comes from a school system that
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: was invented and developed to turn people into good factory
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: workers and good little employees and not teach people how
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: to think critically. It teaches you to follow rules and
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: it punishes you and you don't follow them. So it's
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: not surprised when people have this response of like, well
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: I did what you said technically, yeah.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: Well, And as someone who again wasn't I did employ
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: a behavior chart in my classroom where like, you got
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: to move up to nice colors and down to bad
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: colors based on your actions throughout the day, and then
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: that decided whether or not you got to play scrabble
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: with us in the afternoon or not. It was it
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: was my last year of teaching, and they told me
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: that my kids couldn't have a Valentine's Day party. And
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: I had bought them Valentine's Day shit anyways, and someone
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: asked me, I thought your kids weren't allowed to have
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: a Valentine's Day party today because they earn en up
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Thunderbucks or whatever. And I looked, and I looked my
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: teachers aid in the eye, and I was like, here's
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: the thing. Everyone woke up today and it was Valentine's Day,
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: whether or not they wanted it to be. You don't
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: actually get to police holidays, like it's Valentine's Day. They're
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: all getting a little Debbie stack.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: What are Thunderbucks?
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: Uh? They were just another stupid so, like each classroom
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: would have their stupid little behavior chart, and then the
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: administration would have thunderbox that they would hand out to
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: you if they saw you being good factory workers in
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: the hallway or while they were walking by.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: Wonderful.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And that was when I was like, oh, I
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: can't actually work for the American education system anymore because
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: I've reached my limit. And it all was because everyone
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: should get to celebrate Valentine's Day if they want.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, it's it's bad. Yeah, I mean, that's
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: my one source of optimism in these these unprecedented times
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: of August twenty twenty five, is that that system that
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: has been governing all of us, especially here in the US,
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, and torturing people in other parts of the
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: world in different ways, but the system that has been
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: training us to be good little employees and happy little cogs.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: It's been so big and so seemingly impossible to damage.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: But now it's been damaged kind of by itself. It's
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: sort of hurt itself in confusion. But the one upside
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: I see of the American right destroying the state and
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: the status quo from the inside or flanking it from
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: further right is maybe if we can prevent them from
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: developing a solid and long term replacement that's even worse,
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: maybe that will mean there's finally room for new, more
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: EXAs expansive and more like creative, interesting and imaginative cultures
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: to redevelop that humans spent two hundred thousand years like
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: experimenting and being in all kinds of different ways, and
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: then it's only in the last couple of centuries that
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: we've been so thoroughly locked into this one model of
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: horrible society, and maybe maybe it's collapsing, and maybe maybe
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: school doesn't have to be like that. Maybe children don't
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: have to walk lightly in a neat line when they're
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: going down the hall and get Thunderbucks.
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: I it all so America. All became clear to me
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: when I was actually watching a Broadway musical. I was watching.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: Hambleton, Oh the Founding Fathers.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: No, not Hamilton. Lynn you got Lynn got a lot
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: of money out of me. I bought his little book
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: that had all of his good morning and good night
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: tweets in it and everything, because I wasn't medicated for
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: my depression yet and his tweets were the thing that
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: was taking the place of my willbutrin. But it was
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: Something Rotten, which is a show that's loosely based on
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: the Renaissance and William Shakespeare and yeah, okay, no one's
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: ever seen it. I love it. People keep telling me
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: it's bad. I loved it.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: I saw it the same weekend I saw Hamilton, and
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: I will say Hamilton's a better show. Yeah, not ideologically,
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: but at the level of just a Broadway show, Yes,
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: it is better.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: I just like that they made William Shakespeare into basically
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: the Mick Jagger of the Renaissance, and he got to
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: like CrowdSurf and stuff. I was like, that's cute. But
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: when the Pilgrims flee the Renaissance and they have this
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: little number about how like the Renaissance is too sexy
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: so they gotta go. I looked at my friend and
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: I went shit, And she goes, what what? And I go,
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: that's why, I go. That's why we are who we
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: are as a country. We're the people who fled the rents.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: All. Yeah, yeah, you're told that we were founded by
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: the people who were, you know, facing religious persecution and
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: pursuing a life of expansive freedom. And no, we were
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: founded by we were founded by the far right Christian cult.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: I hated it being in the in the midst of degenerate,
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: woke decadence, like the people running the country or the
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: people who were meant to run the country from the very.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: Beginning, and then they got here and they murdered women
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: for HAINI.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Now, yeah, we were founded by pilgrims on the one hand,
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: and then the other at least of like the English
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: settlers were the hyper capitalists who founded Virginia, and so
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: it's not neither option is great, And what we were
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: experiencing now is the merger of those two ideologies and
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: it makes perfect sense.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And the one hope that I keep holding on
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: to is all of those memes that say this is
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: the death rattle of capitalism and patriarchy and conservatyism and conservatism,
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: and that's why it feels so hard to be living
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: right now. And I'm like, that's right, because maybe in
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: a year it'll be over and it'll be dead.
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I will say, if your listeners will forgive me
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: for being a little preachy, though, the death rattle of
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: the American state and capitalism and all that is only
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: good news if if we are able to prevent an
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: even worse system from taking its place. Like I see
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: some people using that as I think justification of inaction,
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: or they're like, oh great, Like I will put my
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: salvation hopes for society on this idea. It will collapse,
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: things will be fine. Fortunately, No, it's not just collapsing.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: It's being dismantled and actively replaced by people who are worse.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: And that does mean we all have to play active defense.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: We can't just sit around in hope.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: You're accidentally touching on one of my other niche interest,
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: which is the Romanovs. And I always like to remind
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: people that Russia never recovered from the romanof assassination because
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: then other people came in and made it worse.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean worse for some people, and admittedly better
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: for some other people, but like not good all around, not.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: Good all around.
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, I see you falling for the CIA's propaganda.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: Everything I've read about the Soviet Union is that it
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: was a perfect paradise. People happily waited in breadlines for
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: seventeen hours.
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know whose side of the Cold War
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: that I'm on, but I'm.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: I'm on either side. I consider myself an anarchist, and
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: so I don't think any centralized state solutions are ever
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: going to be the answer. Yeah, exactly, which is why
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: to me, the idea of playing defense here is like no, no, no,
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: just like let them destroy America, just prevent them from
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: building anything else up and let communities like experiment and
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: try things.
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because well, and because everyone's not actually thinking critically
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: about all of this dystopian novels. We were fed when
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: we were teens. They did destroy America and then they
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: came up with the Hunger Games, Like that's what happened.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's still the Capital.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they came up with the Capital. Yeah. And we've
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: seen the prequel now to the Hunger Games. It wasn't fun,
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: and that's what we would be loving. Yeah.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's like versions of that I'd be okay with.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: It's like billionaire Hunger Games I've long been pitching. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: I I'm a big I'm a big. David grayburs Stan
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: who's an anarchist anthropologist. If y'all haven't read him, I
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: highly recommend The Democracy Project for Right Now and The
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: Dawn of Everything if you just want some inspiration about
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: it's all. It's like a rethinking of human Neolithic history
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: and descriptions of all of these fascinating ways human societies
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: were organized that have nothing to do with our current
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: understanding of the trajectory of like hunter gatherer to farmer
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: to state to empire to European capitalism to America. But
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: he he always says, like, you know, people like to
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: accuse me of like they get mad at me because
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: I can't tell them what an anarchists or like what
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: a left replacement of this status quo would look like.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: But I don't think it's possible for us to know yet,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: Like we are all the people living in it and
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: inundated with it, and it's all the world has been
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: allowed to know for so long now. And I think
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: our job is to clear the way for the human
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: imagination again, because it used to be our most powerful asset,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: and people used to organize their societies in a million
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: different ways, ways that feel insane, and then you realize
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: the only feel insane from the perspective of our insane society.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: And yeah, our job isn't to know what's next. Our
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: job is to open up space for the people after
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: us to start imagining again. And I love that. I'm
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: trying to live by that because yeah, I don't fucking know.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: I don't have answers, but no one has answers. If
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: someone promises you answers, that's a cult leader in there,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: lying or they want your money.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think actually you just did was our
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: closing out ceremony where you gave us a lesson. Yeah,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: and it's to maybe open ourselves up to more imagination
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: because it was what actually made us successful. Yes, and
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: you kind of manifested a little bit, even though you
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: told me that you might not be good at that.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: I don't believe in manifesting. I'm extremely non spiritual. I
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: do believe in hoping. Yeah, I just don't think my
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: hope has causal impact on the world. So whatever you
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: think manifesting is, if you think it's just hoping for something,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: then yes, I'm manifesting.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: Can I tell you the dirty secret of the manifestation
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: clause for my podcast?
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: I'm sure yah.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: So the podcast was supposed to just be my avenue
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: to practicing stand up comedy about my exes and the
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: way that men had treated me. But I was very
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: cognizant about the fact that men are so mean on
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: the internet, and we needn't even talk about all of
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: the cool ways that you battle that because I've been
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: watching them and they cracked me up. So I will
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: just instead move people onto your socials. Or you could
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: always come back and do a trolls only episode because
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: you're invited back. That's the caveat anytime. Yeah, we're friends
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: now impact contractually because of the friendship bracelet I gave you. Yeah,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: So that's why it's tolerated before because I was like,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: they won't get me saying, hey, uh not those mean
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: trolls on the internet. And then I was like, and
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: we'll end it in a positive note and will wish
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: well for these idiots. And then again when the trolls
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: try to dos me, I can be like, but I
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: I gave good energy back, I forget and I moved
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: on in good faith. But literally, sometimes my manifestation is
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: usually like if I can't think of one, and I
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: don't want to just give like the miscongeniality world peace answer,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: I just say something like I really hope that like
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: someone talked really nicely to Amanda Bines today, Like and
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: I just like call out someone that I know that's
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: in need.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I can do one manifest I have a
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: manifest all right. Yeah. I look, there's so many people
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: committing acts of are into nihilist terrorism out there in
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: the world, and I'm manifesting that just one of them
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: instead of targeting teenagers and teachers. What just assassinated Elon Musk,
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: just the one. We only need one of them to
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: do it.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: And I'm not editing that out. I'll get on the list.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: This is this is a spiritual practice of manifestation. I'm
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: not telling anyone to do it.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: They cannot. The Separation of Church and State says that
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: we're and freedom of speech says that we're allowed to
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: say this and.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: It's spiritual and just in case, depending on like what
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: laws have been passed in the next few days, that's
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: not a manifestation technically, that's my prayer to the Lord,
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: the Heavenly Father. And that's between me and Jesus.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, and you're gonna be that, and you're gonna come
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: between me and Jesus. Jesus and I share a birthday.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: You want to go there.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So I mean, look, you can tell me that
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: praying to Jesus is wrong. I guess yeah.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: Also, does it make this more scary when I tell
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: you that I record ahead of time, so this isn't
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: coming out for months?
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: Oh god? Yeah, I guess I should change my lesson then. So, hi, people,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: months from now, I'm so sorry about everything that's happened
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: in the last few months. Yeah, you're gonna I assume
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: the Internet is down and that you're listening to this
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: on a on a like a thumb drive being passed around.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: I'm going to give you a list of first aid resources.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: So first, if someone is bleeding out. If someone is
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: bleeding out, it is okay to tourniquit them. I know,
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: for a while you were told that was bad and
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: that they'd lose their limb, But it's actually okay. More
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: research has shown that tourniquets are more safe than we realize. Plus,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: if it's a matter of life and death, obviously don't
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: even doubt it. You do need to know how to
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: do it correctly, though, I mean I don't know I should.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: You know what I'm going to do. I'm just going
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: to download a book of first aid and I'm going
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: to start reading it out loud right now, so you
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: stop me, Natalie, Okay, I.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: Mean honestly, Yeah, I haven't taken in a first aid
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: class in a while, and I have small nephews. Maybe
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: maybe I should know what thing ne two, I walked
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: it into my sister's car and my foot was actively bleeding,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: and I had no idea.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: Introduction national first aid systems and most of the world
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: came out of the medical core of popular and liberation
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: movements of the fifties and sixties. In the United States,
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: street medics we're operating and training in Mississippi and New
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: York City, at least four years before the first state
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: wid DMS programs were established in Maryland. What are street medics?
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: Street medics?
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: Is this an online publication?
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, this is actually this is a little first
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: aid guide. It's ninety pages of first aid for street medics,
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: published by the Chicago Action Medical Group.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: Well, thanks for growing local for me. I'll link it
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: in the show notes so you don't have to do
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: unpaid voice work.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: You don't want me to read it out loud?
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, I feel like you should be paid for your
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: craft and I don't have the budget for that.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: Totally fair. Yeah, you let me go longer than I
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: thought you would, But that's okay.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: I love a bit. I love a bit.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: I'm so scared to know what the world you're listening
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: to this and is. But hey, you're still listening to this?
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, honestly, and honestly, I hope I am just being
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: not I hope. But could wouldn't that be hilarious if
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: we're one of the pieces of media being passed along
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: like the Dead Sea squrolls.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the one, random, this.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: Is the one I am whatever they based their entire
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: future on in that show on HBO Max Shit I
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: fifth station, the eleventh station. I read the whole ass
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: book and now I can't remember the name of the show,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: even though I really liked it, but it was it
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: was all based on a comic book. Like people just
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: care passed around the same comic book and people built
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: cults around its ideology and everything.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you say that, but but we are
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: doing that now.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: We are.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: That is exactly how our government is being operated at
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: the moment.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: I just wish Chris Evans would dress up as Captain America,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: show up at the White House and go as Captain America.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: I want you to stop, because I feel like that
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: would trick them.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. I more meant that, like the Gospels
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: are sort of a compilation of a very niche comic fandom.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: So yes, Sarah, this was great and I really did
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: mean it when I said you can come back whenever
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: you want. And unfortunately a gift that I impart on
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: you is my undying friendship. So I will DM you
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: when I think of you.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: And you should thank you so much. I would love
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: to come back. This was so fun.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you. So much. Uh, could you make sure that
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: all of my listeners know where they can follow you
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: so they can watch you be mean to internet rolls. Yeah.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: Best place for that specifically would be Instagram at Sarah
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: Rose Kaplin Sarah with no A trolls like the Flower
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: and Kaplin of the Sea. And I'm not always just
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: trying to be mean to internet trolls. Sometimes I try
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: to be nice to them.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: I'm actually being dumb about it. Like you've elevated the
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: knowledge base of this podcast by like five times.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: Uh, thank you.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: No, I'm pretty particular about which trolls I respond to,
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: but I do like responding to them. My mom's always like,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: why do you keep reading these comments? And I'm like,
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It's a form of self harm, but
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: I enjoy I guess. But yeah, you can find me there.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: You can find me on YouTube also at Sarah Rose Kaplan,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: where I do a weekly news processing podcast with my
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: friend Kat, who is a trans woman and public defender.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: We met in law school. I dropped out as she graduated,
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: And yeah, that's where you can find me.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, tolerators, you know where to find us.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: It's men. I've Tolerated pod on Instagram Natalie K one
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: two four if you want to see personal photos from
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: my Instagram or TikTok, and to all the men I've
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: tolerated before on YouTube if you want to check out
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: the movie reviews under still Comfy uh. And as always,
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: I invite you to type in my name or to
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: all the men I've tolerated before on any social media
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: platform you're checking out in case I forgot one. And remember, tolerators,
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: you don't have to smile through anything you're tolerating, including
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: just knowing that someone's having a fear response and wanting
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: to fight their fear response, but also knowing that you're
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: so exhausted by fighting their fear response that nothing is
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: actually getting accomplished. Smiles are for joy