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Family Therapy with The Ritual Sisters · Millennial Mental Health Channel

0:00
Speaker 1: Create, ritual, create, tradition. Just enjoy this time because our
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Speaker 1: time is so precious together and things change really quickly,
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Speaker 1: so enjoy the moment.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to MMHC, your go to mental health podcast.
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Speaker 3: Hi'm Eddie Koreo, a licensed professional counselor.
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Speaker 2: And I'm Justin Romano, a Board certified Child and Adolescent psychiatrist.
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Speaker 3: We created MMHC to give listeners evidence based information directly
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Speaker 3: from professionals who work in mental health.
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Speaker 2: We're not influencers, we're not trying to sell you anything.
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Speaker 2: We just want to bring love, empathy, and understanding of
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Speaker 2: mental health into this world.
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Speaker 3: And we really think that learning about mental health should
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Speaker 3: be fun, interesting, and most importantly honest.
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Speaker 2: So thanks for tuning in. This is a show by
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Speaker 2: two millennials, but it is intended to be for everyone.
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Speaker 3: We hope you enjoy the show.
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Speaker 2: MMHC is a production of Speaker from iHeartMedia.
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Speaker 3: I Heartmia.
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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome back to the show.
1:00
Speaker 3: Today.
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Speaker 2: We have two excellent guests that we are really excited
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Speaker 2: for you guys to meet. Kelly and Michelle are the
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Speaker 2: minds behind the podcast, The Ritual Sisters Podcast. This is
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Speaker 2: a podcast for those seeking deep connection authenticity and groundedness
1:14
Speaker 2: through the magic of ritual. They're all so local and
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Speaker 2: personal friends, so it's truly an honor to have them
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Speaker 2: on the show. So I collaborated with them on their podcast.
1:23
Speaker 2: We are super excited to have them on MMHC. They're
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Speaker 2: both family therapists, which is going to be the main
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Speaker 2: topic for today's show. So pretty much just talking to
1:32
Speaker 2: Eddie here. Let's welcome, Kelly and Michelle.
1:35
Speaker 3: Welcome.
1:40
Speaker 2: So we got an icebreaker question for you guys. So
1:44
Speaker 2: did you always know you wanted to be therapists or like,
1:47
Speaker 2: what did you want to be when you were five
1:49
Speaker 2: years old?
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Speaker 4: Okay, when I.
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Speaker 5: Was five, I wanted to be a writer, But when
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Speaker 5: I was fifteen was when I said I wanted to
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Speaker 5: be a therapist. So I've been pretty consistent since then.
2:03
Speaker 2: Cool, and that was Michelle for all you listeners out
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Speaker 2: there too. Yeah, how about you, Kelly.
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Speaker 1: Wow, Well I'm inspired, Michelle. That is early to know
2:12
Speaker 1: you wanted to be a therapist, very early. Yeah, so
2:15
Speaker 1: when I was five, I wanted to be a motivational speaker.
2:20
Speaker 1: I grew up a fun fact, everyone grew up without
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Speaker 1: a TV, so you can imagine I was bored. I
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Speaker 1: would listen to these motivational speakers on cassette tape and yeah,
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Speaker 1: just would memorize their speeches, and so yeah, it feels
2:40
Speaker 1: maybe a little full circle. I'm talking way too say,
2:42
Speaker 1: we just started our podcast this year, But yeah, I
2:45
Speaker 1: wanted to be a motivational speaker. And then I actually
2:48
Speaker 1: went to grad school thinking i'd study prevention science, took
2:52
Speaker 1: a grief in lost class, and changed my route in
2:55
Speaker 1: grad school, so I was very unclear about therapy.
2:59
Speaker 2: Well, now I got to know, why didn't you have
3:00
Speaker 2: a TV?
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Speaker 1: So my family and I lived in one house and
3:04
Speaker 1: then we moved, and I guess I was screen obsessed,
3:09
Speaker 1: like shops was not shit, and so when my parents moved,
3:15
Speaker 1: they were like, oh, Kelly, the new house doesn't come
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Speaker 1: with a TV. And I totally bought it obviously until
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Speaker 1: and then still we got a TV maybe when I
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Speaker 1: was in high school, but didn't have any cable.
3:29
Speaker 2: So well, now I got a note for you, Eddie,
3:31
Speaker 2: like when did you know you wanted to be a therapist?
3:33
Speaker 2: What did you want to do when you were five?
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Speaker 3: I think I wanted to be a baseball player, but
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Speaker 3: I don't think I played baseball til I was like
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Speaker 3: seven or eight, So I don't know why the fuck
3:47
Speaker 3: I decided or I figured out that I wanted to
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Speaker 3: be a therapist somewhere in between, like junior year of
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Speaker 3: college and senior year somewhere there after my first internship
3:59
Speaker 3: with the juvenile apart locally here in Oregon, so I
4:02
Speaker 3: think somewhere in there. And I think even when I
4:04
Speaker 3: got to grad school, I was just kind of like,
4:07
Speaker 3: I don't know what we're doing. We'll figure this out.
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Speaker 3: And then now I'm licensed, so I guess it worked out.
4:12
Speaker 3: At some point it happened. I like it, so topics, Boy,
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Speaker 3: are you going to share yours? I didn't know if
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Speaker 3: anyone cared. I didn't know if anyone wanted to know.
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Speaker 2: When I was five, I would have told you I
4:27
Speaker 2: wanted to be a plumber, because yeah, I had a
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Speaker 2: family friend who was a financial advisor, and he always
4:34
Speaker 2: told me plumbers have the most disposable income. So I
4:37
Speaker 2: was like, sure, I'll be a plumber.
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Speaker 3: I told my cousins that because they have a couple
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Speaker 3: of cousins that want to go like into the trades,
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Speaker 3: like they're just graduated high school, like getting towards that
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Speaker 3: and I've told him, like HVAC and plumbing like seems
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Speaker 3: to be like the best in terms of like a
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Speaker 3: trade and pay and quality of life. I don't know.
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Speaker 3: I had a plumber that came in like a year
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Speaker 3: ago who just seemed to like love his life, and
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Speaker 3: I felt jealous because he was just like having a
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Speaker 3: good time. He was super cool, just he seemed to
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Speaker 3: really enjoy it. So yes, plus one for plumbing.
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Speaker 2: Pipes don't have feelings, though, so it's like a completely different.
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Speaker 3: It probably be.
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Speaker 5: I don't not have a concept of disposable income at five,
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Speaker 5: So that's pretty cool that you were thinking about that.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: I don't think I did either, but I was just like,
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Speaker 2: you know, sure, he says.
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Speaker 3: Plumbing is a good gig, so why not. Yeah.
5:40
Speaker 2: So we are talking family therapy today, and one of
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Speaker 2: the things that I had learned while doing the Ritual
5:46
Speaker 2: Sisters podcast is that family therapy is actually one of
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Speaker 2: the least reimbursed types of therapy. And as a child
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Speaker 2: and adolescent psychiatrist, I have noticed that so much of
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Speaker 2: child psychiatry, of child mental health is family therapy, is
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Speaker 2: family mental health. So it really hurt me knowing that,
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Speaker 2: like it's not a very reimburse thing because it feels
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Speaker 2: like all of my toughest cases and the ones where
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Speaker 2: the kids aren't really making a lot of improvements are
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Speaker 2: the ones where the families have a lot of dysfunction.
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Speaker 2: So I really wanted to talk about this today with
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Speaker 2: you guys. What are your guys' clients think family therapy
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Speaker 2: is going to be because it seems like there's a
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Speaker 2: lot of misconceptions.
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Speaker 5: Well, I think it kind of goes back to almost
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Speaker 5: that whole perception that leads to it being paid worse
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Speaker 5: is that people go into it with this idea of
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Speaker 5: the identified patient or IP as we know in the trade.
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Speaker 5: So people go into it thinking, Okay, we're just gonna
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Speaker 5: like Michelle's going to fix xyz person in my family.
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Speaker 5: That's what family therapy is is solving this person's problem.
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Speaker 5: They're the problem them, and this is all about them.
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Speaker 1: It really can be a quite a bit of figure pointing,
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Speaker 1: and then we joke in this is more couples therapy,
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Speaker 1: but I feel like it tracks for family therapy too.
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Speaker 1: It's always we're working on communication, and we always joke
7:15
Speaker 1: because it's like, let's break that down. What do you
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Speaker 1: mean by you want to work on communication, Like it's
7:21
Speaker 1: such a band aid term that yeah, like let's tie deeper.
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Speaker 3: This is like insider knowledge because I've never heard identified
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Speaker 3: patient and maybe I just didn't pay so like this
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Speaker 3: is this is new for me. I actually, so before
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Speaker 3: we started today, I was just curious. I looked up, like, okay,
7:41
Speaker 3: being an organ like what are because I don't know
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Speaker 3: how it is with you guys, but an Oregon licensed
7:48
Speaker 3: professional counselors or in other states license mental health counselors,
7:51
Speaker 3: those are the same thing. For Oregon, LPC's and lmft's
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Speaker 3: licensed marriage and Family therapists are under the same licensing board.
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Speaker 3: So I looked up. I was like, okay, like what
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Speaker 3: is what is the difference? Because I have like no
8:02
Speaker 3: idea off the top of my head, and there's like
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Speaker 3: a substantial amount of like hours that have to be
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Speaker 3: specific to families and couples, and like that was something
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Speaker 3: that I got to just really go straight past. I
8:15
Speaker 3: didn't have to worry about specifically. So like that, I think,
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Speaker 3: in itself really shows like a big level of expertise
8:22
Speaker 3: and dedication to like I can do and in speaking
8:27
Speaker 3: maybe not speaking for you gains, but speaking as like
8:29
Speaker 3: an LMFT, it could be like I can do regular
8:32
Speaker 3: individual therapy, but I have this like extra level of
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Speaker 3: expertise and knowledge and dedication to like marriage and couples
8:40
Speaker 3: and families and all that. So I think, I guess
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Speaker 3: just for for our listeners to really point out, like
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Speaker 3: it's a it's a pretty big difference, and it's a
8:46
Speaker 3: pretty big ordeal because if you remember during during licensure process,
8:53
Speaker 3: like getting the hours takes a long ass time, Like
8:55
Speaker 3: it's a lot of work to become fully licensed to
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Speaker 3: a crew all the hours, so that also have to
9:00
Speaker 3: be on top of that also have a focus with
9:02
Speaker 3: like specific type of hours. Kudos to you guys, an
9:06
Speaker 3: amazing job, because that's yeah, my brain was already like
9:11
Speaker 3: on mush trying to like get through the hours that
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Speaker 3: I had to do back in the day. So good
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Speaker 3: for the both of you and all and LMFTs for
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Speaker 3: having to do that extra extra piece.
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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, it is actually the highest like the most
9:26
Speaker 5: stringent requirements. Yeah, for like you have to have like
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Speaker 5: really specific drug client hours and they have to be
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Speaker 5: couples and family hours, and so it does take a
9:36
Speaker 5: lot of extra work. And yeah, these insurance companies. They
9:40
Speaker 5: don't seem to notice that, Yeah, which is so upsetting.
9:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you Eddie feeling really sneak.
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Speaker 3: Yes, Okay, So here's another piece for me. I've like
9:52
Speaker 3: never had to deal with insurance in the last like
9:55
Speaker 3: eight years that I've been practicing. I working mental health. Yeah,
9:59
Speaker 3: I only did community mental health. I worked in a
10:01
Speaker 3: hospital for a year, and then this last four years
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Speaker 3: I've worked in a high school like as like the
10:06
Speaker 3: school therapist. Like zero insurance like zero, Like like I
10:11
Speaker 3: That's where I'm lacking. So, like, do you have any
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Speaker 3: thought idea concept of why do you think that is?
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Speaker 3: Like why why is family therapists reimbursed in the way
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Speaker 3: that it is compared to like individual I don't even
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Speaker 3: know what the reimbursement rate would be for like group,
10:28
Speaker 3: but like what why do you think that is in
10:30
Speaker 3: terms of like reimbursement rates.
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Speaker 5: Theoretically you have more people, So I guess, yeah, I honest,
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Speaker 5: I don't know. I mean, I think it's the medical
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Speaker 5: model of it that it's kind of like this idea
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Speaker 5: of it's almost like you're doing this ancillary service like
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Speaker 5: your therapy mental health is one person, they have a
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Speaker 5: mental health diagnosis that you're treating, and if you're bringing
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Speaker 5: in the family, you're just doing this additional service that's
11:02
Speaker 5: not necessary. Maybe or it is necessary, but it's like
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Speaker 5: not the main treatment. But that's obviously not how we
11:11
Speaker 5: think about it in the mental health field, where the
11:14
Speaker 5: family therapy or the couple's therapy can be the main
11:18
Speaker 5: treatment that this person needs. An individual therapy could be ancillary.
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Speaker 5: But I think in insurance mind, it's backwards.
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Speaker 3: I don't know.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and there's you know, because it's hard to
11:31
Speaker 1: become a licensed marriage and family therapist because of all
11:34
Speaker 1: of these hours, hoops, you name it. I think there's
11:38
Speaker 1: just less of us, which then impacts right advocacy getting
11:42
Speaker 1: in front of insurance companies, and so there's, Yeah, I
11:45
Speaker 1: think a major trickle down effect of that, and that
11:48
Speaker 1: I would love to do that work at some point
11:51
Speaker 1: in my career. I'm not there yet, but man, I
11:54
Speaker 1: do want to speak up because it is upsetting and
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Speaker 1: it leads really good family and couples there to do
12:01
Speaker 1: private pay only and then that's hurting, right, all these
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Speaker 1: people that need that support.
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Speaker 3: The way you're describing it as almost as like insurance
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Speaker 3: thinks of family and couples therapy as like elective when
12:15
Speaker 3: it's like not. Justin and I were talking getting ready
12:19
Speaker 3: for this week of like I I can't think of
12:22
Speaker 3: a time where working with a child or a teenager
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Speaker 3: that like the family isn't part of it. There's there's
12:28
Speaker 3: very few times in the last number of years where
12:31
Speaker 3: that would be the case. So it's it's a necessary component.
12:34
Speaker 3: So for insurance to treat it that way, it is shitty.
12:37
Speaker 3: And I mean we we won't like insurance anyway, like
12:40
Speaker 3: fun all of them, but like, yeah, I think it's
12:42
Speaker 3: shy that that's it's shitty that that's the case. Historically,
12:48
Speaker 3: it feels like the different licensures have have kind of
12:51
Speaker 3: like been separate it. I don't know, maybe this is
12:53
Speaker 3: just me, but like for sure, and we love lcsw's
12:56
Speaker 3: but I know historically like lcsw's have kind of like
13:00
Speaker 3: not been a fan of the other like Master's level licensures,
13:03
Speaker 3: and then that's kind of put others behind, and so
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Speaker 3: it's just yeah, all of it. Okay, I'm done, Justin,
13:11
Speaker 3: I'm talking too much. I think you made a really.
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Speaker 2: Good point too, that maybe they didn't have as much
13:16
Speaker 2: advocacy as much lobbying. I know that my wife used
13:20
Speaker 2: to be an optometrist. Eddy's girlfriends an optometrist. My wife
13:23
Speaker 2: always used to say, like the dentists did it right,
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Speaker 2: Like dentists have great public perception. They got everyone to
13:30
Speaker 2: brush their teeth twice a day, they got great insurance coverage.
13:34
Speaker 2: But the the optometrists didn't, and they waited too long,
13:38
Speaker 2: and so they like missed the boat. And that's one
13:40
Speaker 2: of the reasons why reimbursement and insurance for optometry is
13:43
Speaker 2: so much worse than for dental stuff. So that makes
13:46
Speaker 2: a big difference. That really makes sense to me. Yeah,
13:51
Speaker 2: So on the show, we love talking about a lot
13:55
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff, just stuff, everything, all of it. Yeah, popcorn, Sure,
14:00
Speaker 2: that's the word I'm looking for pop culture.
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Speaker 3: Pretty simple word.
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Speaker 2: Should have known the one. So one of the things
14:06
Speaker 2: that I noticed is like family therapy comes up in
14:08
Speaker 2: pop culture all the time. I would say, like kind
14:11
Speaker 2: of similar rates to regular therapy. You see like couples therapy,
14:14
Speaker 2: family therapy. What are good models in media and TV shows?
14:19
Speaker 2: Were like, okay, that's good family therapy and what are
14:22
Speaker 2: bad ones? Do you guys have any examples for me?
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Speaker 5: Oh man, we were talking about this before and we
14:28
Speaker 5: were like we we couldn't.
14:29
Speaker 4: Think of one where there.
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Speaker 1: Was Yeah, so many individual therapy examples.
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Speaker 4: And couple couples.
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Speaker 5: The worst one, I say with couples was Love Wedding
14:44
Speaker 5: Marriage with Mandy Moore. This was came out a long
14:48
Speaker 5: time ago, but we literally is she's I don't I
14:53
Speaker 5: can't remember I watched it so long ago, but somehow
14:55
Speaker 5: she is a couple therapist for her own parents. Oh
15:00
Speaker 5: it's like a no, non't. Well, but yeah, that's the
15:09
Speaker 5: one that came to mind.
15:10
Speaker 1: Well, I told Michelle the one I love now it's
15:12
Speaker 1: individual therapy. But are you did you guys see Ted Lasso?
15:16
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, she needs to watch it with me. I
15:19
Speaker 4: never saying that, yeah, which is craz.
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Speaker 1: But yeah, I was really trying to think of family
15:25
Speaker 1: therapy examples. I'm watching Ginny and Georgia. I'm not sure
15:28
Speaker 1: if you'll it's like a drama, but the mom comes
15:32
Speaker 1: in for a few sessions, which I think is a
15:35
Speaker 1: good illustration. Like that sometimes happens right where we'll meet
15:39
Speaker 1: with the teenager and occasionally we'll bring in the parent,
15:43
Speaker 1: of course, if the teen's up for that. And it
15:46
Speaker 1: feels like a good fit.
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Speaker 5: I watch a lot of reality television, and I can
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Speaker 5: say that they have horrible conflict resolution skills.
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Speaker 3: I have watch it at all, but all I've I've
16:01
Speaker 3: heard over the last three whatever plus weeks has been
16:05
Speaker 3: Love Island and all this shit going on with that.
16:08
Speaker 3: Yes I'm not familiar, but yeah, I think my girlfriend's
16:11
Speaker 3: watching Love is Blind right now, and every time like
16:14
Speaker 3: there's yeah, the conflict resolution is minimal, sometimes zero.
16:22
Speaker 4: Yeah, wild.
16:25
Speaker 2: I love watching those shows and just like like calling
16:28
Speaker 2: out personality disorders, like you know what you're not really
16:33
Speaker 2: supposed to do, but you know it's fun.
16:35
Speaker 4: That's how I get my kicks.
16:36
Speaker 5: It's just as long as you don't go online and
16:39
Speaker 5: bully then exactly, Oh.
16:41
Speaker 3: Justin does a lot of online bullying.
16:43
Speaker 2: Oh I a troll for sure. No, I don't do
16:48
Speaker 2: any of that stuff. Personal question alert, So, now that
16:52
Speaker 2: you're trained family therapists, like, what do you see as
16:56
Speaker 2: some of your biggest unhealthy family dynamics from your family
17:01
Speaker 2: growing up? And I know that lying to about the
17:03
Speaker 2: TV is probably your biggest one. I hope you're listening,
17:11
Speaker 2: but seriously, what do you think because you've got a
17:13
Speaker 2: different perspective now, you can kind of see how family
17:15
Speaker 2: units are supposed to work. What do you think.
17:18
Speaker 5: It's almost obnoxious how much you have to analyze your
17:21
Speaker 5: own family that.
17:22
Speaker 1: Was a grad school rite a passage, yea dynamics. That's
17:28
Speaker 1: why we're all still close because there was a lot
17:30
Speaker 1: of Sharon in grad school. So if anyone wants to
17:33
Speaker 1: go to graduate school to become a therapist, giddy up,
17:36
Speaker 1: get ready.
17:38
Speaker 4: Yeah.
17:39
Speaker 5: Well, one thing for us in my family growing up,
17:42
Speaker 5: my dad as an adult, like once once me and
17:46
Speaker 5: my sister were fully grown up in adults and might
17:49
Speaker 5: have even been around grad school, and you remember, but
17:52
Speaker 5: he realized that he was on the autism spectrum and
17:56
Speaker 5: so that actually put a lot of things into perspective.
17:59
Speaker 5: But I think at that point, you know, with my
18:02
Speaker 5: parents' relationship, a lot of damage had been done leading
18:07
Speaker 5: up to that point. I mean, they're still married, but
18:09
Speaker 5: they had some challenges with you know, he just he
18:14
Speaker 5: forgets birthdays. There was my mom always says that there's
18:20
Speaker 5: one year he forgot Valentine's Day, their anniversary, and her birthday.
18:25
Speaker 4: Oh so yeah.
18:28
Speaker 5: So my uncle would always say, like he it's so
18:31
Speaker 5: great having Mike in the family because he makes every
18:34
Speaker 5: all the other guys look great.
18:36
Speaker 4: Fuck, oh gosh, okay, my mom's brother.
18:51
Speaker 3: Whenever we have guests that are different than justin and
18:54
Speaker 3: in terms of like job responsibilities or licensure and all that,
18:59
Speaker 3: we have to just kind of give our listeners an
19:01
Speaker 3: idea of like what is that process like of getting
19:04
Speaker 3: to the point where you're at? So can you share
19:06
Speaker 3: with with everybody, just like your process of becoming licensed
19:11
Speaker 3: marriage and family therapists? What that. I've talked about it
19:13
Speaker 3: a little bit, but just like you know exactly what
19:15
Speaker 3: I went like, so can you share like the schooling part,
19:18
Speaker 3: the hours, WI all the stuff that we're into it.
19:22
Speaker 1: So obviously someone has an undergrad degree, most likely it
19:27
Speaker 1: I mean honestly probably whatever undergrad degree. But I was
19:31
Speaker 1: a psych major and then for a graduate school. Oh
19:36
Speaker 1: what's that word, Michelle? It has to be like co
19:40
Speaker 1: CREP accredited. There's some.
19:43
Speaker 4: But you want it.
19:44
Speaker 1: I feel bad, I'm probably I'm really this. We absolutely
19:48
Speaker 1: will give the bride resource and no. This is important though,
19:52
Speaker 1: because some schools don't have this accreditation. Like I have
19:57
Speaker 1: a supervis that went to University of Northern Colorado. They
20:01
Speaker 1: did not have that accreditation. So she had to take
20:04
Speaker 1: extra hoops to get her MftC, which is once you're
20:08
Speaker 1: done with grad school, you operate as an MftC and
20:12
Speaker 1: to licensure so if anyone's interested in marriage and family therapy,
20:16
Speaker 1: make sure the university is doing their thing having the accreditation.
20:22
Speaker 1: So you go to grad school, typically it'll be two years.
20:25
Speaker 1: I took three years, as I remember, did the little
20:27
Speaker 1: pivot thing, but most people take two years. And in
20:31
Speaker 1: that time you also want to ask the graduate program
20:36
Speaker 1: who are the clients you're going to see and do
20:39
Speaker 1: they do external internships? Like Michelle and I, our program
20:43
Speaker 1: was only in house, so we saw a ton of
20:47
Speaker 1: high conflict couples, Like the majority of our relational hours
20:52
Speaker 1: came from couples that came through the system, very explosive behaviors.
20:58
Speaker 1: I mean, it was great learn name it was also
21:01
Speaker 1: incredibly stressful. We joked that many of us are trauma
21:05
Speaker 1: bonded from the program.
21:08
Speaker 4: Yes, and ours was.
21:10
Speaker 5: Most of our internship was behind the mirror, so our
21:14
Speaker 5: supervisors were watching us do therapy as we were doing it,
21:19
Speaker 5: which is that was what I was looking for in
21:22
Speaker 5: the program, because I feel like that's really good learning.
21:25
Speaker 5: But sometimes some people do more like recordings audio or
21:30
Speaker 5: visual recordings.
21:32
Speaker 3: A lot of people don't know this, but like I
21:33
Speaker 3: feel like we're one of the few professions that, like
21:36
Speaker 3: you graduate and like you're not done yet, like you
21:38
Speaker 3: have to like do stuff until your fully license, whereas
21:41
Speaker 3: like others, like you graduate, you take your test and
21:43
Speaker 3: you're like the fully licensed part is like pretty close
21:46
Speaker 3: to after graduation, whereas for us, it's not. Can you
21:49
Speaker 3: tell us about that? No, everybody fully gets it. For therapists, Oh.
21:54
Speaker 1: It is such a journey. I know. I really always
21:57
Speaker 1: say it's a rate of passage going from you graduate
21:59
Speaker 1: from grad school and then you kind of need to
22:03
Speaker 1: expect the next two to four years of your life.
22:06
Speaker 1: It's going to be hard. You're tracking your hours. I know,
22:08
Speaker 1: Michelle and I both like you have these crazy Excel
22:11
Speaker 1: sheets because you're tracking your individual hours, your couple hours,
22:14
Speaker 1: family hours. You're super and your supervisor has to be
22:18
Speaker 1: an LMFT, which those are hard to find, which is
22:21
Speaker 1: also why Schelle and I have done supervision because to me,
22:24
Speaker 1: it's it's important to give back. I mean, I remember, yeah,
22:28
Speaker 1: I was a school based therapist. That's how I started
22:31
Speaker 1: my journey, and yeah, I didn't have an LMFT supervisor,
22:34
Speaker 1: so I had to pay for outside supervision when I
22:37
Speaker 1: was making less than fifty thousand a year.
22:40
Speaker 4: That's awesome.
22:41
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so that do everyone heads up look at
22:47
Speaker 1: the pay. I mean, it has gotten better, but it
22:50
Speaker 1: isn't great until your license, which I also feel like
22:54
Speaker 1: is a disservice because it's assuming you're either not right
22:58
Speaker 1: live not living and the means you want to, or
23:01
Speaker 1: you're relying on someone else's income, which is bullshit.
23:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, system is all all kinds of fucked up. But
23:08
Speaker 3: thank you guys for sharing. Yeah, I think it's it's
23:09
Speaker 3: important for people to understand like how we get to
23:14
Speaker 3: point B or the semi finish line and like all
23:17
Speaker 3: the stuff that it takes, and so appreciate your sharing.
23:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been really sweet. I have a few friends
23:22
Speaker 1: that have called me saying, oh, I think I want
23:24
Speaker 1: to be a therapist, and I've walked them through this
23:27
Speaker 1: process because I want them to know all these things.
23:30
Speaker 1: I went in totally blind. I mean, I did not
23:34
Speaker 1: do my research properly, and I feel feel really passionate
23:38
Speaker 1: that people do do that to know what they're signing
23:40
Speaker 1: up for.
23:41
Speaker 2: Well, I do want to take a step back and say, like, Kelly,
23:43
Speaker 2: we didn't get your answer of what did you notice
23:46
Speaker 2: about your family dynamics now that you're a license I'm
23:50
Speaker 2: just so curious.
23:51
Speaker 1: And how world technology things. I know, I totally would
23:54
Speaker 1: have been a kidney with like a flip phone, rock
23:58
Speaker 1: in the flip phone. How do I want to answer this?
24:02
Speaker 1: I feel like intergenerational trauma is what comes up for me.
24:07
Speaker 1: And so if you look at my grandparents, and I
24:12
Speaker 1: even think about my grandmas, right, like both my grandmothers
24:16
Speaker 1: stayed at home, they didn't work, and so even that
24:20
Speaker 1: level of you know, that impacting my mom like wanting
24:24
Speaker 1: to go and get an education, and then that influencing
24:28
Speaker 1: me to go get educated as kind of a ripple
24:31
Speaker 1: effect in ways. But addiction was a big struggle on
24:36
Speaker 1: my dad's side of the family. And I mean still
24:39
Speaker 1: to this day, you see how that, yeah, just impact
24:44
Speaker 1: someone's self worth, their understanding of the world, their comfortability
24:49
Speaker 1: and relationship. And yeah, we Michelle and I took a
24:53
Speaker 1: family therapy class. We had to do a genogram and
24:55
Speaker 1: give a presentation. I remember that was really special because
24:59
Speaker 1: I got to interview with my parents, my grandparents and
25:02
Speaker 1: really dive into some of these things because they do
25:06
Speaker 1: a ripple of facts and we do need to acknowledge
25:08
Speaker 1: that to heal and be the best version of ourselves
25:12
Speaker 1: right in this lifetime.
25:14
Speaker 3: I remember doing it gen too. I haven't thought about
25:19
Speaker 3: homework in a long time.
25:22
Speaker 5: Students now have to do genograms for every client that
25:26
Speaker 5: I work with.
25:27
Speaker 4: They sure do.
25:29
Speaker 3: Wow.
25:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you mentioned it earlier that it's kind of
25:33
Speaker 2: a rite of passage that you have to really analyze
25:35
Speaker 2: your family because that's what you know, that's what you're
25:37
Speaker 2: building your foundation off of. So you kind of have
25:40
Speaker 2: to go back and think with all the stuff that
25:41
Speaker 2: you're learning and relate it back to your family and
25:44
Speaker 2: say like, is this normal? Is this real? Like is
25:47
Speaker 2: this what it's supposed to be? And so I'm sure
25:50
Speaker 2: that that's kind of wild and crazy to turn the
25:53
Speaker 2: mirror on yourself and think about your family and your
25:55
Speaker 2: family dynamics like that.
25:57
Speaker 4: Yeah.
25:58
Speaker 5: And I remember one of our supervisors in grad school saying, like,
26:01
Speaker 5: never ask your clients to do something that you wouldn't do.
26:05
Speaker 5: And I feel like that's huge for family therapy if
26:07
Speaker 5: you're asking people to analyze their family patterns like you
26:11
Speaker 5: have to be willing to do it yourself.
26:15
Speaker 1: We also, oh, this was such a good conversation. So
26:18
Speaker 1: I was supervising on on campus. This was last semester,
26:23
Speaker 1: and we were talking about our own attachment styles in
26:26
Speaker 1: romantic partnerships. I don't know if you guys have read
26:28
Speaker 1: the book Wired for Love, but it's packed. It's a
26:32
Speaker 1: specific type of couple's therapy. And so we are all like, oh,
26:35
Speaker 1: who's an island, Who's an anchor, Who's a wave?
26:38
Speaker 4: I'm yeah, we love the ice Breakers.
26:44
Speaker 1: And it was fascinating, how right I'm an island, so
26:48
Speaker 1: which means right, I might be more avoidant or I
26:50
Speaker 1: might be more distant to just how I swing. So
26:54
Speaker 1: then when I see someone in a partnership, I might
26:57
Speaker 1: more align with someone that's presented that way. And so
27:01
Speaker 1: it's fascinating. Yeah, know your patterns, know your attachment style,
27:06
Speaker 1: and be aware that you might relate to clients differently
27:09
Speaker 1: based on those underpinnings. So yeah, just keeping that in perspective, that.
27:17
Speaker 3: Is a good icebreaker.
27:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, talk about those definitions, So island, anchor wave? What
27:27
Speaker 2: are the anchor and wave?
27:28
Speaker 5: So it's based off of your how you related to
27:32
Speaker 5: your parents growing up and how they responded to your needs,
27:37
Speaker 5: your happiness and also when you needed help, and that's
27:42
Speaker 5: kind of your I like to think about it like
27:43
Speaker 5: your first language, and you can as you grow up,
27:46
Speaker 5: you can learn a second language. You can, you know, adapt,
27:49
Speaker 5: but you might the older that you are when you
27:52
Speaker 5: learn it, the more you're you're heavily accented.
27:55
Speaker 4: In that lane. Whige probably nice, thank you.
28:00
Speaker 5: So the islands are typically the ones that didn't get
28:03
Speaker 5: as much attunement growing up, So that would mean that
28:08
Speaker 5: they kind of learn that when I express my needs,
28:12
Speaker 5: I'm not necessarily going to be have those attuned to.
28:16
Speaker 5: So they learn to internalize and kind of regulate on
28:20
Speaker 5: their own, so they don't necessarily want to seek out
28:23
Speaker 5: comfort from their partner when they're upset.
28:25
Speaker 4: They want to go off on their own and kind
28:27
Speaker 4: of process on their own. These are broad strokes.
28:30
Speaker 5: Then the wave had more inconsistent attunement. So what they
28:35
Speaker 5: learned is that the more that I seek out that attachment,
28:40
Speaker 5: the more that I seek out that comfort, the more
28:42
Speaker 5: likely somebody is going to listen to me. So they're
28:45
Speaker 5: going to be the ones if they're thinking, oh, this
28:48
Speaker 5: person is upset with me, or they might leave or
28:51
Speaker 5: I'm you know, I'm.
28:52
Speaker 1: Having a hard time.
28:53
Speaker 4: They're going to do the wave.
28:54
Speaker 1: Like laughing, like the constant laughing, yeah, yeah, to.
29:00
Speaker 4: Me, come help me.
29:02
Speaker 5: So they and they have a really hard time regulating
29:04
Speaker 5: on their own, so they're going to want another their
29:06
Speaker 5: partner there to regulate with them and help them regulate.
29:10
Speaker 5: Whereas the anchor had the most consistent which you actually
29:16
Speaker 5: don't need that high consistency to have anchor like attachment,
29:20
Speaker 5: I think it's like sixty percent or something of the
29:23
Speaker 5: time that your parents like attuned to you and responded
29:27
Speaker 5: appropriately to your needs. So they are the ones that
29:31
Speaker 5: kind of know, like I can reach out for help
29:33
Speaker 5: and I can also do it on my own. So
29:36
Speaker 5: they're kind of the more you know, you would say,
29:39
Speaker 5: like the more stable and the attachment more secure them.
29:42
Speaker 4: Yeah, those are the three basically.
29:44
Speaker 1: And often in couples therapy, you'll often see an island
29:48
Speaker 1: in a wave like that's the most common dynamic you'll see.
29:53
Speaker 2: Interesting like, those are the ones that have the most
29:54
Speaker 2: problems and are seeking out therapy or questions.
29:58
Speaker 1: You know, you don't see many two anchors coming and
30:01
Speaker 1: less the pre marital then they don't have any problems
30:05
Speaker 1: are doing it for the goodness of their hearts. I'm
30:08
Speaker 1: just kidding totally.
30:10
Speaker 4: That was rude.
30:10
Speaker 6: I just don't pre marital. It's a great idea. Like
30:18
Speaker 6: we like double anchor couples, we sure do.
30:25
Speaker 2: What are some of the unhealthy things? To talk more
30:28
Speaker 2: about the trends that you see, Like couples that have
30:31
Speaker 2: a lot of conflict, what do you see a lot
30:33
Speaker 2: of the lot of trends there, Or the families that
30:36
Speaker 2: are more double anchors are more secure, what are the
30:40
Speaker 2: trends there in those relationships.
30:42
Speaker 1: Michelle did a lot of in home family therapy, so
30:45
Speaker 1: I'm curious.
30:47
Speaker 6: Yeah, she wass a fun time.
30:52
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think unhealthy.
30:54
Speaker 5: I feel like just a complete lack of communication. I
30:58
Speaker 5: think is pretty common, like people that they just don't
31:03
Speaker 5: really talk to each other very much.
31:06
Speaker 4: And Gotman. I think he talks about ships casting in.
31:10
Speaker 5: The night style, people that don't you know, don't connect
31:15
Speaker 5: a lot. And then of course you have the opposite.
31:18
Speaker 5: I think with families, you you see a lot of
31:22
Speaker 5: I think like a clash. I think Justin even talked
31:26
Speaker 5: about this when you were on our podcast, Like a
31:28
Speaker 5: clash in the parent personality and the child personality. There's
31:34
Speaker 5: a really awesome child therapist named Terry Cotman who she adapted.
31:41
Speaker 4: I totally blanked on. It starts with an a oh gosh,
31:44
Speaker 4: and I can't help you.
31:49
Speaker 5: She adapted ed Larian therapy to play therapy, so she
31:52
Speaker 5: died ed Larian play therapy, and she talks about like
31:56
Speaker 5: this idea of like who who is this Chile? Who
32:00
Speaker 5: are they today? And being with your child as they are,
32:05
Speaker 5: not as you want them to be.
32:07
Speaker 1: Oh so, yeah, that is a great point in Michelle. I
32:10
Speaker 1: think you see that a lot in family therapy, where
32:14
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's sometimes those caregivers, those parents that
32:18
Speaker 1: have these big dreams for their kiddo, but it's their
32:23
Speaker 1: right on written dream and it's not allowing that student,
32:29
Speaker 1: that youth to right kind of be who they want
32:32
Speaker 1: to be. I think that's a big one.
32:34
Speaker 5: Yeah, and yeah, even if it's not dreams, it's like, oh,
32:38
Speaker 5: you know, just this is how they are, you know,
32:40
Speaker 5: like I want them to be like focused better. Well
32:44
Speaker 5: they have ADHD, so things are going to look different,
32:47
Speaker 5: you know, like how can you just be present for
32:51
Speaker 5: that person? The same would go for couples therapy too,
32:53
Speaker 5: you know, just meeting, like understanding who is this person
32:56
Speaker 5: that I chose to be with and how can I
33:00
Speaker 5: be with them as I are, not as I as
33:02
Speaker 5: I want them to be.
33:04
Speaker 2: To give you an example of that, my grandma was
33:06
Speaker 2: a very interesting lady, and every time she saw my dad,
33:09
Speaker 2: she would tell stories about how he was when he
33:12
Speaker 2: was a child instead of talking about the things that
33:14
Speaker 2: he had done with his life. And she would always
33:17
Speaker 2: talk about, Oh, you were just had the most beautiful
33:20
Speaker 2: little curls, you were the most precious little boy. But
33:23
Speaker 2: she didn't really talk about any of the things that
33:24
Speaker 2: he had done in the past twenty years. And so
33:26
Speaker 2: it was like, it sounds like that's kind of the
33:27
Speaker 2: similar concept of those She never let those dreams of
33:31
Speaker 2: what she had in her mind kind of go and
33:34
Speaker 2: just start to accept him for who he was and
33:36
Speaker 2: build that relationship with who he actually was.
33:39
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, and that's yeah. Transitions are also another big
33:43
Speaker 5: piece of it with you know, couples and families is
33:47
Speaker 5: how do you navigate I think, you know, kids becoming teenagers.
33:50
Speaker 5: That's a huge shift in your relationship and a lot
33:54
Speaker 5: of people really struggle to navigate that because, yeah, your
33:59
Speaker 5: child like an elementary school or versus a teenager. Very
34:03
Speaker 5: it's a different person, and a lot of people struggle
34:06
Speaker 5: with kind of letting go of that pastage and moving
34:10
Speaker 5: on to the next stage.
34:13
Speaker 1: One theory I have two. Again, I have not done
34:15
Speaker 1: research on this, but I love talking about sources idea
34:19
Speaker 1: of map of wholeness. This comes from a train, a
34:21
Speaker 1: global training I did, and they talk about you. Right,
34:24
Speaker 1: all of us have an inner child, an inner team,
34:27
Speaker 1: an inner adult, and an inner elder, and each of
34:30
Speaker 1: those parts of us can be underdeveloped or overdeveloped because
34:35
Speaker 1: of our upbringings. And so right in family therapy, you
34:39
Speaker 1: see where maybe there's an adult who their inner child
34:42
Speaker 1: is underdeveloped. You know, maybe they heard as a child
34:45
Speaker 1: there's right things that were repaired and then that impacts
34:49
Speaker 1: how they parent and it has kind of that trickle
34:52
Speaker 1: down effect. Eddie, what do you see as a school therapist.
35:00
Speaker 1: I mean, I was in the schools as well. I'm curious,
35:05
Speaker 1: like the family dynamics, I'm.
35:09
Speaker 3: Still stuck on like island anchor wave, but we can
35:14
Speaker 3: no that was. I feel like I'm learning a lot,
35:16
Speaker 3: so I appreciate it. I mean in schools, I think
35:20
Speaker 3: communication is a big thing. I think man I can't.
35:25
Speaker 3: I can't keep it concise. I'll communication with like teens
35:29
Speaker 3: and I'm from I'm at a high school, so like
35:32
Speaker 3: from fourteen to eighteen ish, so like communication from teen
35:36
Speaker 3: to parent and the parent to teen can be a struggle,
35:40
Speaker 3: I think too, like the because they're in that that
35:42
Speaker 3: phase of their life where like the most important people
35:45
Speaker 3: to them are not always their family. It tends to
35:48
Speaker 3: be people around their same age, so their friends and stuff.
35:50
Speaker 3: So that gets hard to I think a lot of
35:53
Speaker 3: teens will take on like the burden of like I
35:56
Speaker 3: don't want to be a burden on other people, so
35:59
Speaker 3: I'll be the the helper and then I'll never ask
36:01
Speaker 3: for help, and then when I do ask for help,
36:03
Speaker 3: it's been like festering for months and years and like that.
36:06
Speaker 3: I deal with a lot of that. I don't want
36:08
Speaker 3: to say deal. I work with a lot of that,
36:10
Speaker 3: which can be hard. I mean, at a high school,
36:12
Speaker 3: it's a lot of crisis. But crisis is different than
36:16
Speaker 3: like when I worked in community and that's all. But
36:18
Speaker 3: it's just the crisis of what a team brings in
36:20
Speaker 3: for that day. It's a lot of like short term
36:23
Speaker 3: like let's figure this out right now, solution focus type stuff.
36:28
Speaker 1: I don't know.
36:28
Speaker 3: It's just that big mixing of like a teenagers trying
36:31
Speaker 3: to figure out who they are and their identity and
36:33
Speaker 3: the things that they like and the people they like
36:34
Speaker 3: and the interest that they have while dealing with like
36:36
Speaker 3: the pressure of like social media and like their friends
36:41
Speaker 3: and their family and like feel like I need to
36:43
Speaker 3: conform in this way. And then our school it's in
36:47
Speaker 3: like a it's in like wine country here in Oregon.
36:50
Speaker 3: It's like in the it's like the meeting of like
36:54
Speaker 3: farming and wine country, and then like families that work
36:58
Speaker 3: for like Nike and like tech companies, like the hospitals.
37:01
Speaker 3: So you get a mix of like just different families
37:04
Speaker 3: and all of that. But then it's a lot of
37:06
Speaker 3: like there's a lot of pressure in our school. Unfortunately,
37:09
Speaker 3: a lot of a lot of our students will take
37:11
Speaker 3: like a lot of ap classes and honors classes, and
37:13
Speaker 3: so there's just a lot of like high strung, highly
37:16
Speaker 3: anxious kids, a lot of kids who struggle with communication
37:20
Speaker 3: and trying to find themselves, and a lot of kids
37:22
Speaker 3: who are like busy with a lot of things that
37:23
Speaker 3: they're doing throughout their life. And again I knew I
37:26
Speaker 3: wasn't gonna be able to keep concise. But it's a
37:28
Speaker 3: little bit of everything in high school and like. But
37:32
Speaker 3: that's what I like about it the most is that
37:33
Speaker 3: I just never know what's going to happen each day,
37:36
Speaker 3: and so I go into a lot of days with
37:38
Speaker 3: the plan of like, I'm gonna do this, this, this,
37:40
Speaker 3: I'm gonna get this done, and then I get none
37:42
Speaker 3: of it done because other things happen. But I don't
37:44
Speaker 3: know if I would want it any other way. I
37:46
Speaker 3: enjoy that a lot, So I love that.
37:49
Speaker 1: One thing I also want to note, because I think
37:51
Speaker 1: we're talking a lot about family therapy with kiddos, students,
37:56
Speaker 1: just want to shout out the families that go to
37:58
Speaker 1: family therapy as adult Michelle might remember I met with
38:02
Speaker 1: adult aged brothers in our grand program.
38:06
Speaker 4: Or forget the brothers.
38:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of.
38:08
Speaker 1: Them thought they were cute.
38:15
Speaker 4: There was a lot of behind the mirror watching.
38:19
Speaker 2: The girls are just falling out of the room.
38:26
Speaker 1: I would say it was one of my favorite clients,
38:30
Speaker 1: just because it was so amazing to see two brothers noticing, Man,
38:34
Speaker 1: we are struggling here. We want someone right to just
38:38
Speaker 1: help us move forward, and so you just want listeners
38:41
Speaker 1: to hear whether it's you and your mom and you
38:43
Speaker 1: both are adults, or you and your sibling. Like, family
38:46
Speaker 1: therapy doesn't have to be just when you're younger, and
38:49
Speaker 1: I think we often think of it that way, which
38:52
Speaker 1: does a disservice.
38:55
Speaker 5: And I think also for doing individual therapy too, that
38:59
Speaker 5: I think there can be a tendency for some people
39:02
Speaker 5: to like, if you're in that mindset of a cheerleader
39:06
Speaker 5: for your client, you can get into that mode of
39:09
Speaker 5: kind of putting down people in their life. But I
39:12
Speaker 5: think kind of that family therapy mindset is that everybody
39:16
Speaker 5: has a role in this person's life and they all have,
39:20
Speaker 5: you know, their own intentions going into it, and now
39:24
Speaker 5: just holding space that this person could you know, have
39:29
Speaker 5: influence on this person's life, and how would I talk
39:31
Speaker 5: if that person was in this room.
39:34
Speaker 2: I think our last question for you guys is what
39:38
Speaker 2: tips do you guys have for families to foster healthy
39:41
Speaker 2: relationships and build their connections.
39:43
Speaker 3: And couples too? Maybe?
39:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyone really?
39:47
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah?
39:49
Speaker 4: Yeah?
39:50
Speaker 5: I think one piece kind of going back to the
39:52
Speaker 5: almost like the anchor island wave thing is I talked about,
39:57
Speaker 5: you know, people regulating by themselves or like needing somebody
40:00
Speaker 5: else to regulate. And there's an idea of coregulation, which
40:04
Speaker 5: is where the two people or the family are all
40:08
Speaker 5: doing an activity that's regulating together. So you're not relying
40:13
Speaker 5: on somebody else to regulate you, and you're not off
40:16
Speaker 5: on your own doing it by yourself. You're all doing
40:19
Speaker 5: it together. So that could be like taking walks, playing
40:22
Speaker 5: a game, dancing, you know, taking deep breaths together. But
40:28
Speaker 5: anything where you're every each person is kind of getting
40:31
Speaker 5: their own regulation while doing something together. I think that's
40:34
Speaker 5: a really powerful thing.
40:37
Speaker 1: Oh that's so powerful.
40:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
40:41
Speaker 1: I love Michelle Obama and her book Becoming talks about
40:44
Speaker 1: in her family they would, you know, do dinner, but
40:47
Speaker 1: they always felt like they belonged in their family. And
40:51
Speaker 1: I think that's so important for families just to write,
40:55
Speaker 1: wrap your kiddo and just let them know like you
40:59
Speaker 1: always belong to here, We love you so much because
41:03
Speaker 1: so much of the time you feel like they don't belong,
41:06
Speaker 1: they don't fit in, and so just knowing home is
41:10
Speaker 1: a safe place to feel that acceptance is key. And
41:14
Speaker 1: my other thing I wanted to say was have fun,
41:18
Speaker 1: which feels maybe obvious but so serious, and I was
41:23
Speaker 1: just like walking my dog this morning, was like, why
41:26
Speaker 1: am I being so serious about this walk with my dad?
41:30
Speaker 1: It's just ridiculous, and so letting families, letting couples don't
41:34
Speaker 1: have fun, create ritual, create tradition. Just enjoy this time
41:40
Speaker 1: because our time is so precious together and things change
41:44
Speaker 1: really quickly, right, things are unexpected, So enjoy the moment.
41:47
Speaker 2: I love that, create fun rituals with your family. Advice
41:51
Speaker 2: from the rituals.
42:00
Speaker 3: With that, I mean, as we wrap up, where can
42:02
Speaker 3: our listeners find you? What? What? What's the what's the plugs?
42:05
Speaker 3: Go ahead and plug yourselves.
42:07
Speaker 4: Oh well, you.
42:07
Speaker 5: Should definitely listen to our episode with doctor Justin that
42:11
Speaker 5: coming out with us at ritual Sisters Pod on Instagram.
42:17
Speaker 1: Yes, and our website is Ritualsisterspod dot com. And yeah,
42:22
Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from you. And we're just so
42:24
Speaker 1: honored that we got to be on here tonight. This
42:27
Speaker 1: is wow, this is fun. I could just talk about
42:29
Speaker 1: this for hours.
42:32
Speaker 2: Thank you guys for being here.
42:34
Speaker 3: We appreciate it. Well, thank you guys again. I think
42:39
Speaker 3: that's it. I already closed out the screen with the question,
42:41
Speaker 3: So we'll just wrap it up there now, we got
42:45
Speaker 3: through all of them. We appreciate you, guys, Michelle and
42:47
Speaker 3: Kelly for joining us again. Uh, you've already made it
42:50
Speaker 3: this far. You know where to find us on Apple
42:52
Speaker 3: Podcasts on Spotify. Feel free to like, subscribe, lose to
42:56
Speaker 3: the five star review. You can leave a comment we'll
42:57
Speaker 3: read it later. Social media at Millennial MHC and our
43:02
Speaker 3: website at MILLENNIALIMHC dot com. Thank you all for listening.
43:05
Speaker 3: We'll see you next time, and don't forget to take
43:07
Speaker 3: care of y'all. Mentals.
43:08
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43:11
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