Latest / Therapy and Theology / S7 E4 | Are There Some People We Shouldn’t Trust Again?

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S7 E4 | Are There Some People We Shouldn’t Trust Again? · Therapy and Theology

• Lysa TerKeurst: This is Lysa TerKeurst. You're listening to Therapy & Theology. Before we get into today's conversation, I'd like to thank the American Association of Christian Counselors for sponsoring Season 7 of Therapy & Theology. I love the work that my friends and I get to do through this podcast that allows for therapeutic wisdom and deep theological insights to be accessible to anyone from anywhere. But we're really only able to scratch the surface. I know, there are thousands of individual needs represented in our listeners as they navigate their own life and relationships, and that's why I always love recommending the American Association of Christian Counselors. They know asking for help is hard, but finding help shouldn't be. They created the Mental Health Coach training program to equip you to know how to respond when a friend comes to you for help. Featuring some of the world's leading mental health and ministry leaders, this online, video-based Mental Health Coach training program teaches you how to talk through the tough issues, like what we talk about here on Therapy & Theology, and how to respond to them. Visit mentalhealthcoach.org to learn how you can sign up for their Mental Health Coach program, or visit the link in the show notes to learn more. Welcome back to another episode of Therapy & Theology. Of course, we've been in this series, all about trust, trust issues, and a lot of information from my book I Want to Trust You, but I Don't. Today, I want to open by reading something from my book that I think is not only written from the place where my heart had been so broken by betrayal but also with the hope of knowing that we've got more help than there are issues. "Trust is the oxygen of all human relationships. A relationship without trust is a relationship without vulnerability and depth. A relationship without trust is void of the kind of love we were meant to give and receive. A relationship without trust is one with very little vibrancy and eventually no life at all. I'm not just talking about romantic love. I'm talking about all relationships where we want deep connection that is both safe and lasting." "When I feel that kind of warmth with a close friend or a loved one, that's home to me. When that same trust is violated, that's hell to me. It feels like my safe space just became a house of horrors. The shock of broken trust makes life feel painfully slow and uncomfortably fast all at the same time. The disbelief that this is your reality makes everything grind to a halt. But the reality of jobs and bills and kids that need a ride to school all feels unrealistically normal, and normal feels too fast for a brain that cannot process what's happening." That's why I wrote this book, because I now fear the risk all relationships require, and I wonder who else is eventually going to betray me. That's what I wanted to discuss today. What do I do with my busted-up trust? And of course, we want not only to establish the issue and how deep the feelings are of broken trust and betrayal, but we also want to know, is it possible to repair broken trust? And if it is possible, if it's a scenario where we do feel like the other person is receptive and they are humble enough to want to walk through the process. What is the process of repairing broken trust? Jim, I know you've told me many times, and especially the first time you said this, I was in such a challenging place, where I wanted to rebuild trust, but I was not sure at all how to do it. And you said something to me like, "Every rip needs a repair," and that made so much sense to me because I was looking for one blanket answer, like one big activity we could do to repair trust. But what you were saying is, "No, you really need to look and examine the rips that were there, and seek to repair each of those rips." Comment a little bit about that. Jim Cress: Yeah, and you've heard me say often, “If it's hysterical, it's historical.” It's not just the rips that a spouse or partner or someone you may be dating ... there's infidelity and betrayal there; it's not just those rips in that immediate relationship, but I would then go through that doorway and look at rips that need to be repaired from your whole life history, and not in an obsessive way but in a way that begins to what I simply call do your story work. I am not so much amazed anymore, Lysa and Joel, but I still am paused by people I meet, wherever it might be. It might be at Starbucks or somewhere. It could be at church or what have you, and they've not done their story work. And as you know, as I teach to explore the facts and the impact, and then even the track, it spells FIT, F-I-T, which we've talked about here before of their story. So here's a crisis, maybe it's a 9/11 that's happened of infidelity in a relationship, to explore all of that and what rips can be repaired. Trust, as we've said, will be repaired and rebuilt over time, plus provable, reliable experience, not quickly, though the 9/11 in the relationship happened very quickly, instantly through discovery or disclosure. But the repair takes time, and then to look back again at what other repairs might I need to seek or try to repair. I believe in Christ, in our relationship with God, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, I can go vertical and repair things with people who may be dead, people who have hurt me in my past who I may never physically encounter again. It's a strange thing that sometimes infidelity and betrayal can be a doorway in which I can look at other repairs historically in my life. Lysa TerKeurst: And I think it's important to state that, sometimes, repair and reconciliation is possible. Other times, it's not. Jim Cress: That's right. Lysa TerKeurst: You mentioned two words that we've talked about before, disclosure and discovery. I've found that a disclosure where someone comes to you and honestly owns what they've done and says, "Hey, I need to be honest with you. I need to admit what's happened, and I just want to come clean," that kind of disclosure, while it's still incredibly painful — Jim Cress: Yes, it is. Lysa TerKeurst: — is setting that relationship up for a much quicker and maybe even a higher possibility of repair. Whereas if it's discovery, then you're always kind of wondering — Jim Cress: Of course. Lysa TerKeurst: — what else is there? Jim Cress: Or if they hadn't been discovered like a perpetual child with the hand in the cookie jar, if you didn't get busted, would you have come forward and owned what you need to own? So I believe, although it is rare, I've done a lot of work in this area as you both know, discovery is usually how it happens, how the news gets broken. Rarely is it disclosure. So I encourage people I work with, typically it seems a lot of men — statistically, more men are unfaithful — and with that is to say, “Rush, run, do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Get right to disclosure.” And what I teach, and you know this, is to do that appropriately with a therapist, especially one who is trained in infidelity and infidelity recovery, because there are therapists, there are church leaders, naming, not blaming, who would say, "Brother, that's under the blood. You just need to move on and forgive him," let alone the bad advice of, "Just go home. Maybe you need to start having sex with him again," not knowing if he's been unfaithful in a way you could get an STI or an STD. I mean, alert warning, "Or you need to go back and just forgive and move on." And I think that, I don't think I'm confident, that's more trauma, and I would argue and posit, more abuse to someone who's been betrayed to tell them just to kind of hijack or hotwire connection and sweep it under the rug and move on. Especially if you dare to name it, put it under the blood of Christ. You didn't ask for this, but I believe that's spiritual abuse as well. Joel Muddamalle: That's good. Lysa TerKeurst: And I do think also that, if there's a discovery, and you find that there's a pattern of they will only admit or own what you have proof for, like what you've discovered, but they will never come clean about a little bit more, chances are each discovery you make is going to make the chances of repair and restoration of that relationship more and more and more unlikely, because you can't repair trust that keeps getting broken. And each discovery, without an admission beforehand, is going to be another betrayal and another betrayal, and that's really hard. Jim Cress: Yup. Lysa TerKeurst: Joel, what do you have to say about some of what Jim just said? Because I think those are some important points. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. I mean, actually, there's a funny little illustration story to draw out maybe even here that happened to me just the other day. I think that discovery and that disclosure is so important, because for the disclosure side, people are going to discover. So you think, "Oh man, I got this hidden. I'm good." And yet, there's abnormalities that are taking place. So here's the story. I had just gotten back from a trip and lying down in bed. Britt and I are watching the show, and all of sudden — Lysa TerKeurst: We love confession time. Joel Muddamalle: I know. That's like my jam. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah, it's just so good. Keep going. Joel Muddamalle: But this is not my confession; it's my daughter's confession. Jim Cress: Oh wow. Has she signed a release for you to do this confession of hers? Joel Muddamalle: Does she have to? She's a minor. Probably? Jim Cress: Well, I guess. Lysa TerKeurst: And you need to give her any royalties that you might receive. Jim Cress: Millions of people are hearing this. Joel Muddamalle: That girl gets all my royalties; let me just tell you that right now. There ain't no doubt about that. She's getting all my shoes. She's getting everything. My boys are not happy with me. Lysa, we probably just need to address, because people probably just heard some sound over here, happening out here. We're actually at the Proverbs 31 Ministries — Lysa TerKeurst: Office. Joel Muddamalle: — office. In front of? Lysa TerKeurst: Our staff. Joel Muddamalle: So hey, staff, you guys say hi really quick. Staff: Hi. Joel Muddamalle: There you go. So now everyone will know. Lysa TerKeurst: And yes, you hear a lot of female voices. There are some males who work for us too. Joel Muddamalle: That's right. Lysa TerKeurst: And they are treasured employees. They really, really are. But also they are working with a lot of women, as are you, every day. Joel Muddamalle: Every day. Lysa TerKeurst: What a gift. Joel Muddamalle: Yes. Jim Cress: You're a blessed man. Joel Muddamalle: Yes. It actually has equipped me for this next story, so there we go. So lying in bed and then all of a sudden, we hear these little feet pattering ... that's happening, and clearly, it's little feet; my boys have gotten bigger, and it's like little soft, petite, little feet patterings. And I'm like, "Oh, that's MJ. She has gotten up. She should not be up right now." And so then she goes, and it's quiet for a little while, and then she comes back, and she's passing by our bedroom trying to go back up the stairs. And so we yell out, "Emmy, is that you?" And she goes, "Yeah." We're like, "Em, come in here." And she's like, "No." I was like, "No, no, no, Em, you need to come in here. What were you doing?" And she comes in; she opens up the door. It's kind of dark because we're watching our show. She crawls into bed. And some of you that have been with me, tour, life, there is a specific snack that I love, that I hide. You know what snack that is. Jim Cress: Besides Taco Bell at midnight. Joel Muddamalle: Once Lysa has actually called me out on a stage in front of a whole bunch of people, for how I eat — Lysa TerKeurst: Oreos. Joel Muddamalle: Yes. So, all of a sudden, my sweet daughter crawls into bed, and I smell the Oreos all over the place. And Britt's laughing already, and I'm like, "Em, did you eat Daddy's Oreos?" And she goes, "No." I'm like, "Sis, look, you've got Oreos on your face. You've got Oreos on your breath." Jim Cress: Were you getting a contact high from her Oreo breath? Joel Muddamalle: I don't know what it was, but maybe. But it was just an interesting thing because she was just having, "No, no, no, no." And then finally, I was just like, "Emmy, I see the Oreos on you." And then finally she was like ... So discovery, and then finally, disclosure, right? "Yeah, Dad, I did." Now, what was interesting here is that once we unraveled the story, we actually found out that she had an accomplice. Jim Cress: Oh wow. Joel Muddamalle: Because my Oreos are hidden very high up to a place that she cannot get to. And so then we find out that actually Luke, Liam and Levi have all helped her out by going up and grabbing the Oreos and bringing them down. But the discovery and the disclosure thing is like, man, it would've been so much better for Em to just come in and be like, "Hey, Dad. Yeah, I took the Oreos." And she might've snitched on her brothers, "And yeah, my brothers were involved in it." But I think the reason why I want to draw this out is that the discovery and the disclosure thing is so important, because often, we think it's a one-to-one situation. Anytime we've been sinned again, and this is the impact of sin in general, sin is never individualistic. Sin is telling us all the time, "It's just me, myself and I," like you're the only one who's going to be impacted. That is not the nature of sin. Sin is always corporate. It's always communal. Sin always has an impact that's never just you. And there are innocent people on the outside who are going to get hurt. And so it's like discovery [and] disclosure. I think that the beauty of the disclosure piece is that we can start to at least deal with the communal impact of it so it doesn't go out of control. Lysa TerKeurst: That's so good, Joel. Also, maybe we need to do a whole Therapy & Theology around the hidden meaning behind Joel hiding food in his house. Joel Muddamalle: Oh my gosh. Jim Cress: You do know that's addict behavior. Lysa TerKeurst: Oh no. Jim Cress: That's your stash. Lysa TerKeurst: Oh no. Jim Cress: We'll talk about it later though. Joel Muddamalle: Is it addict or survival? Jim Cress: Well, you pick. Lysa TerKeurst: I don't know. I'm not touching that one with a 10-foot pole. Jim, you mentioned that it's important to do our story work. I listed out, in my book, things that can affect us. There's so many personal factors that make the severity of broken trust unique to you. So before we get into the list of how to repair broken trust, I think it's important to consider these personal factors that really determine how severe broken trust is affecting you and impacting you. Your family of origin, which you already mentioned. Previous rejections you've experienced. We can't negate that because compounded rejections can start to feel like a line of rejection was spoken over you. And then if you hang on to that line and it starts to become part of the narrative of what you believe about yourself, then that line can become a lie you believe. And that lie you believe can soon become a liability in all future relationships. So previous rejections definitely impact us as well. Personal insecurities, that's a big one. How sentimental you are. What your priorities are in relationships. How much this broken trust cost you. And there's always a cost that's part of the impact. How close you are to this person. If it's an acquaintance, broken trust is not going to impact you nearly as much as if it's a very close friend. How much it changed the circumstances of your life. Did it cause a blip on the screen, or did it become one of those monumental betrayals that you think about and will think about for a really long time? Your tolerance level for poor choices this person made. And whether or not you believe this breach of trust is a deal breaker or not. Some people have a different tolerance level for different kinds of broken trust. And to some people, a small breach of trust can sometimes be a deal breaker in a relationship, based on so much other history that they've experienced. Or some people have a tolerance for severe breaches of trust that maybe you and I wouldn't have. So I think those are important to consider as well. I want to go ahead and step into the repair work, because the very first thing on my list, and I want to say this too, this is a list that's uniquely mine, and this is talking about a big betrayal, a big trust issue. So I encourage anyone listening, and certainly anyone that reads I Want to Trust You, but I Don't to take this list and scale it according to what kind of broken trust there is. There's a big difference between someone who lets you down and disappoints you. Maybe they said they would do something and they didn't do it in the time they promised to do it. There's a big difference between that and infidelity in your marriage. Jim Cress: There is. Lysa TerKeurst: So this list is for the big-T trauma of broken trust. So obviously, make it your own, according to what you need and also according to how severe the broken trust is. The first thing on my list is to fully disclose what they did. Whether it is discovery or disclosure, fully disclos[ing] is important so that more discoveries aren't made later, which again just compounds the broken trust. Now, I do want to say that Jim taught me something really important here. Details are not always helpful. We don't want to go shopping for pain. And if we need a detail, then fine ... ask for it. But I found the details just compounded my hurt. I didn't need the full scope, but I did need a full disclosure. And be honest about what you need. Disclosed information is so much better than continuously making discoveries of what else happened. So that's Step No. 1 to even see if repair is possible. And of course, at this step, you're going to start to see, there's two types of people and how they receive this. The one type of person is, based on their reaction, they're going to be humble. They are obviously probably going to have to process a little shock if it's discovery, because no one likes to get caught doing something they shouldn't have done. But watching their reaction will determine so much about how this process is going to go from here. And if their reaction is that they're able to sub-regulate, they're able not to immediately accuse you of being crazy or blame you or deny it when you have undeniable proof; that reaction is crucial. So if they're gentle and humble, it's going to go one direction. And if they're not, that reaction, that harsh reaction, is going to let you know, this may not be likely, and I think that's important to state. So the second thing that needs to happen is they need to take responsibility for what they've done. And obviously, if it's a situation where it's a compounded situation, like if I've also done something and they've done something, then a discussion can be had about what you've each done. But it's important for the person who has betrayed not to automatically go back in history and pull proof of how you also are not so — Jim Cress: That's a quid pro quo. That's a defensiveness, one of the four horsemen that Gottman found of marital or any intimate relationship — Lysa TerKeurst: That's a killer of relationships. Jim Cress: That's one of the ones probably I bet I've seen more than anything else. Lysa TerKeurst: So it is OK to make the request, "Can we stick with this topic at hand?" Jim Cress: Of course. Lysa TerKeurst: "Can we stick with this offense at hand? It may be that we need to talk about other offenses, but for the purpose of this discussion, let's stick with this one offense," and I think that's important. So will they take responsibility for what they've done? And then, will they seek to understand how this impacted you? For me, this is one of the most significant parts of repairing broken trust, because I need to know that at least you will acknowledge that this wasn't just about the act of betrayal; this is about the fact of what it's now cost me, of what it's done to me inside. And so a response that I love is, "I recognize how much this has hurt you, and I recognize, as a result, that you're going to be hesitant to trust me. And I want to say, of course, you're going to be hesitant to trust me." And so when the person is that gentle and really does seek to understand how this impacted you, not just what they did but how it affected you is really important. And right along with that acknowledge what this cost you, because there's a cost every time. Jim Cress: That's the impact piece. The cost: Is this a $5 debt, or is this a $5 million debt? What does it cost you? I want to add to it again, back to the person's story, not just what does it cost you in the moment you've discovered this has gone on or I've disclosed it, but where has it impacted you? Was Daddy unfaithful? Were you abused back here in childhood? Just to think in these categories versus this linear or myopic thing, "Well, I did this, and let's keep it on me." I take all couples back through where did this also ... Because we know post-traumatic stress happens a lot, discovery or disclosure, but really looking at the person's story, that's layers of impact. Lysa TerKeurst: I also, in the book, reveal that I went and got my brain scanned, because I wanted to know not just the emotional fallout and not just the physical fallout, which there were physical ramifications for deep betrayal; there just were. And there was a lot of emotional fallout like triggers and things like that. But there was also ... something shifted in my brain, and I wanted to know what the cost was to me from a brain health standpoint. And it was fascinating to me as I stood with Dr. Daniel Amen who scanned my brain. He put up a picture of a healthy brain, and then he put a picture up of my brain. And what he indicated is there were four anxiety centers that were lit up, whether I was at rest or whether I was active. And those four anxiety centers formed what he called the “trauma diamond.” And he could literally point to the cause and effect of broken trust and betrayal and the impact that this had on me. The top part of the diamond was PTSD, and then one of the other parts of the diamond, that anxiety center being lit up is, it made so much sense when he explained it, that that is where you can start that process of thought spiraling. And another part of it was you misread cues from other people. You think they look shifty, and they were just looking up at the light above. And so when you've been hurt and betrayed and you've experienced trauma, and I mean, again, it doesn't just have to be in romantic relationships. It can be in work relationships. It can be in organizational relationships. It can be with family members, with friendships. There's so many friendship breakups that happen that leave people traumatized. So basically, when I looked at the four anxiety centers, I realized that this didn't just impact me and my emotions, that this had a cost to the way my brain now functions. Now, the good news is, through EMDR, through Bible studies, through counseling, through intensives that I've done with you, Jim, and also intensives that I've done with you, Joel, studying the theology behind where to go from here and what beliefs I need to carry that are solid theology, that he can also see that my brain is healing. Jim Cress: Praise God. Lysa TerKeurst: So it was a sobering exercise, but it was also a hope-filled exercise, that there is help for some of the damages that we could see that actually occurred in my brain. So we don't want to underestimate the cost. There is a cost to this, depending on how big the betrayal and broken trust was. Next step in repairing: They need to welcome your questions and desire for clarification. Jim Cress: Oh yeah. Lysa TerKeurst: I would love for you to comment about what you've seen in your office, Jim, because you have seen this and walked people through this so many times. Jim Cress: On my desk in my office is a small little beach ball, and beside it, I use all the time, is a full military hand grenade. It's been gutted, but it's there. And you know that in a swimming pool, when you hold down a beach ball, it's going to come up with force. But not just like the beach ball, I believe, that comes up like that grenade. So I watch people, somatically, if you will, in their body, men especially, where it's like this tick, tick, tick, and they're just getting more upset, like, "How long can you build trust? Or how long is it going to be before we can have sex again, or whatever?" Those are called resentments, and I watch those begin to build up, just looking at their eyes, their face, or some of the nomenclature or wording they will use. And I begin to step in on that pretty early. "How long will this take?" That was the big cry in the Old Testament, right? "How long, oh Lord?" As long as it takes. Trust, again, rebuilt over time, plus provable, reliable experience. What I want for these guys, and women have been unfaithful too, but especially the men I work with is I want the law of attraction not the law of promotion. That really comes out of the 12 steps. In other words, the law of promotion is, "Don't you trust me yet? And can't you see? I mean, how much more therapy do you have to do?" I see it all the time. That's the law of promotion. The law of attraction is, "I want to go." Dad used to tell me, "Son, I took my Bible to public school." He said, "Son, you're the best Bible that people will ever read." And a person says, "Honey, you're different." I begin to share something. Or we've had a stretch of two months where it has been almost honeymoon, and then a movie comes up, or something else comes up, or coming into the fall, maybe just the seasons changing something, and I feel like I'm just forlorn in my face or I'm upset. Or a friend or another pastor has fallen in sexual disgrace or infidelity, and they are triggered; these days, we usually use the word they're “activated.” And then the husband can be like, "Really? I mean, I didn't even do anything this time." I always guide them. My guiding principle is Psalm 51. We all know it, but listen: A broken and contrite heart God will not despise. Yay, God forgave David. That baby died, conceived, and he prayed hard for that baby. And then Nathan said, "FYI, buddy, the sword will never depart your house." And when you're bored, read about David's sons, let alone Absalom, that whole story around that, and then Solomon, how Solomon died, 1 Kings 9, 10, 11, and how Solomon sons were. So I don't put that as necessarily a curse upon David, but there is a reality. You choose your behavior, but the world chooses the consequences. And I want a willingness, a brokenness, humility with the guy. One more thing, we've talked about rip and repair. He's going to have a bad day. He's going to one day say, "Oh man, I'm so frustrated." Does he ground himself and say, "Babe, I'm sorry. That's my crap. That's my stuff. I mean, I'm sorry," and he can repair it. This is not perfection. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. And there is a big difference between a mistake and a pattern of behavior with that. Joel, I want to get your thoughts, but let me go through a couple more of these, just for the sake of time. So after they welcome your questions and desire for clarification, it's important for them to give you space and time to grieve, if you need to, without making you feel guilty, annoying or weak. I cannot emphasize that one enough. Jim Cress: That's right. Lysa TerKeurst: Next is, ask for forgiveness with a truly repentant heart. I would love, Joel, for you just to quickly comment on, how do we know ... from a theological standpoint, how do we know that it's a truly repentant heart? I mean, we can feel it; we can sense it, but is there anything from a biblical standpoint that can go, OK, the Bible says this about a truly repentant heart? Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. I mean, I'll pull from my scholar, therapist, theologian friend, Jim Cress, who says, "For trust to be rebuilt, it takes time plus believable behavior." From a theological standpoint, I think that that time and believable behavior has to be rooted in a willingness to submit to authority. Jim Cress: Amen. Joel Muddamalle: It needs to be a soil of the heart that is cultivated through humility. It also requires this persistence of patience. Jim Cress: I like that term. Joel Muddamalle: That time is actually a test to look at the condition of the human heart of, is this individual trying to win something back because it's on their terms? Or is this individual becoming submitted to the process of sanctification — being made new in Christ Jesus? I think one of the fascinating things about this whole rip and repair thing too is that, sometimes, we say we want a repair, but what we actually mean in our mind is we want the absence of all the rips. Lysa TerKeurst: And all the consequences Joel Muddamalle: And all the consequences, right? Jim Cress: Clean it up fast. Joel Muddamalle: Here's a fascinating detail about Jesus and the resurrection. Why is it that Jesus, in the resurrected body, He bears the wounds with the cross on His body? This is the new heavens, the new earth image that we're talking about. This is the prototypical image that we are given of the hope of the new heavens, the new earth. And here comes Jesus, in His bodily resurrected body, and He's showing the wounds of the cross. Lysa TerKeurst: Wow. Joel Muddamalle: Right? And so, you have this sense that, yes, there are rips, and yes, there are repairs, and yes, you might see the evidence of this pain and this hurt, and simultaneously, those wounds are actually evidence of the victory of Christ on the cross. So you're seeing this reframed in a new way. The ancient Israelites, Lysa and Jim, if you ask them, "Why is there all this pain and misery in the world?" they would actually have a different answer than you and I would give. We would probably say ... "Well, why is there so much suffering in the world?" we'd be like, "Well, Genesis 3." Well, the ancient Israelites would be like, "Well, it's Genesis 3, plus Genesis 6, plus Genesis 11." The Old Testament scholars would say that in the first 10 chapters or 11 chapters of Genesis, we find every pattern that is important for us to comprehend throughout the rest of Scripture. I disagree just a little bit. I don't think it stops at 11. I think we have to add chapter 12. And so in Genesis 1 through 3, you have the fall. But at the end of that rip, you have the promise of repair. Here comes God who sheds the innocent blood of an animal for the covering of the shame of ... Wow, that sounds familiar, doesn't it? Lysa TerKeurst: It sure does. Joel Muddamalle: It's an echo anticipating Jesus. And Genesis 6, you have this massive flood because sin has perpetuated throughout the world. And this flood comes, but the purpose of the flood is new creation. It's an image of repair. And in Genesis 11, you have this massive rebellion of humanity, and yet, it is bookended with Genesis 12, which is the promise of the blessing of the nations that would come through one man and his family because of their obedience to Christ. And so, you have this pattern consistently, throughout Scripture, that, yes, there are rips, and yes, there are repairs, and yes, it takes time. And yes, it takes believable behavior. And yes, you're probably still going to see evidence of those wounds on your body, on your heart, on your mind. And yes, just because you see the evidence of those things, it doesn't diminish the real victory of Jesus on the cross. That is the ultimate person who we can trust. Lysa TerKeurst: So good. It's been years since my unwanted divorce, and my life has taken so many twists and turns, but now, I'm remarried to a wonderful man; his name is Chaz. And Chaz has done his work. Jim Cress: That's right. Lysa TerKeurst: He has done his story work. He has done his healing work and his recovery work, and there's a statement that you and I talk about a lot that Chaz says, and I think it's one of your new favorite quotes. Joel Muddamalle: It's one of my favorites. I actually quotes Chaz pretty much most places I'm at. Lysa TerKeurst: And do you know which quote I'm talking about? Joel Muddamalle: "If it takes you nine miles to go in, it's going to take you nine miles to come out." Lysa TerKeurst: Yep. Nine miles in, nine miles out. And I think that really relates to what we're talking about today. Jim Cress: Absolutely. Lysa TerKeurst: OK. After they ask for forgiveness with a truly repentant heart, then it's important for them to seek ways to make restitution. Now, obviously, they can't fix everything that was broken, but is there some form of restitution that they can make, that they should make? Then seeing them make that effort is really good for the person who's wanting to heal. Jim Cress: By the way, I want them to remain in ... if they get in therapy to repair the rips in their own life story, their forgiveness of Dad, Mom ... Jim Cress is a victim of childhood sexual abuse; I am [too]. To forgive people who've hurt me, and strange as it is, to forgive God one day. You say, “That's crazy; that's wacky.” No. In their mind, maybe they're viewing God as a heavenly version of the earthly father or mother. So it's repairing with a spouse, no doubt, but there's getting siloed over here with a therapist or good friend, soul care, and repairing rips in their own story. Lysa TerKeurst: That's so good. And that may be one of the greatest acts of restitution; it’s to say, "This came, this betrayal that I put on you, came from a broken place in me, so I'm going to seek to fix that broken place, or at least work on that broken place inside me, both from an emotional standpoint and a spiritual standpoint." They need to establish new patterns in their life that will support them making improvements in this area. That is absolutely crucial. They need to stay consistent so the new patterns become a new operating system for them and eventually become a natural way of doing things. One thing that I love that Chaz does, because in his past ... he's a recovering alcoholic, and he's been sober for 10 years. And he has tools now that when he feels that overwhelming sense of like, overwhelmed from his job or an emotional flood or something's really bothering him, his new patterns, he knows exactly what to do. He needs to go to an AA meeting. Now, he hasn't had a drop of alcohol in 10 years, but those meetings are important. He needs to go to church. He needs to open his Bible. He needs to go get in the ocean. He's a surfer. Who knew that I would marry a surfer, right? Joel Muddamalle: Who knew? Lysa TerKeurst: But even just him getting in the ocean is part of his new toolbox. Joel Muddamalle: He has a good cup of coffee that he grinds with his — Lysa TerKeurst: Joel, you have added this into his life, and it is such an expensive, time-consuming habit, this pour over habit now. Jim Cress: Can I add, in respect of Chaz, what I love that's unstated but on the table? He is literally grounding himself. Ladies and gentlemen, if you want a tool by getting in the earth, getting in the sand, bare feet on grass, this is our father's world, getting in the ocean, grounding himself by getting in community in an AA meeting. I love to hear that, that he's grounding himself, and the body keeps the score both ways, both in trauma and in healing. Joel Muddamalle: Wow. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. And so I love that about him. These new patterns became a new operating system for him and a natural way now of doing things. There's just a few more. Follow through on the small things. Sometimes, it's not possible to prove big trust things quickly, but if you follow through on the small things, that really starts to lay that new track record that we're looking for unbelievable behavior. Welcome accountability. Practice vulnerability. Tend to their deeper issues with a trained professional, which we've already talked about. They need to do their own inner work. Be willing to go to counseling with you, with a heart ready to fully participate. Be patient with your triggers and ask you what you need for reassurance. Realize that the greater the hurt, the longer the healing will take and be willing to give this time and the attention that is required. And then lastly, be willing to co-create a new future with you. You'll both have to accept that a repaired relationship will mean a different relationship. Sometimes, that means a stronger relationship than before, and other times, different will feel more like meeting someone for the first time, even when you've known them for years. So remember, this repair work is going to be deeply personal to you, your unique needs, and it's important, of all the things we've talked about on the list, to consider: What is it that you need? This is not a scientific list. This is not a scientific formula. It is something that is going to be unique and personal to you, and I pray that today's episode is not telling you what to do or what to think but is giving you a lot to think about. It is possible to repair broken trust with the right person, with the right attitude, and with the right tools. I hope you've enjoyed today's episode. Shae Hill: One of the greatest lessons and perspective shifts that I've learned from Lysa is this right here. Sometimes distrust is actually the wisest choice you can make. I've never really heard anyone else teach on this, but as someone who can be skeptical to trust, this brought me so much peace and confidence that I don't have to ignore all the red flags and pursue blind trust, but really, ultimately, what we're after is wise trust. Before you head out, I want to make sure you know about a couple of things. First, there is a free resource by Lysa called “When the Person Who Hurt You Got Away With It: 3 Days to Moving Forward.” As you think about who you might be able to rebuild trust with in your life, I think Lysa's words would be so helpful to you. You can visit the link in our show notes to download your copy. Next, I hope you're loving all these conversations on trust that we've had so far on the podcast this season. And if you're wanting to dig deeper, I want to make sure you grab Lysa TerKeurst's new book, I Want to Trust You, but I Don't. You can get your copy from the P31 Bookstore by clicking the link in our show notes. Lastly, I just want to thank our friends at the American Association of Christian Counselors for sponsoring today's episode. You can check out our show notes below to learn more about them and what they're doing. Can you believe we're over halfway through this new season? I sure don't want it to end. Make sure you come back next week, ready to take notes and lean in alongside me as we tune into another conversation from Lysa, Jim and Joel. Therapy & Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we believe, when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.