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Stop the Wrong Stress Battles | Work Burnout Prevention · Work Stress Anxiety | Burnout Prevention & Work Anxiety Help

• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Hi and welcome to Work Stress Anxiety.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one of the things that I think that matters most is that so many people are just not dealing with stress, and I'm so glad that I have an amazing, amazing guest, Dr.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Vanessa Bo Richard.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: A clinical neuropsychologist talk about all the things that we need to be thinking about when we're dealing with stress.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get started.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone, Cheryl here.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to work stress, anxiety.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have had the kind of day that I have had, you'll be so pleased that we have a wonderful guest here today.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Vanessa, welcome.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, thank you so much for having me again.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm happy to be here.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, Vanessa, what I'd really like you to do is talk about your forward method and the usefulness of it in a in the kind of uh environment, especially in the workplace, where someone might be suffering with chronic stress.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: So the forward method um was something that was born out of my personal experiences.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but given that I am a neuropsychologist, I have also through my training been able to understand why this works and why this is helpful, both neurologically, um, you know, through like cognitive neuroscience, but also psychologically.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the reason that this even came about was I kept having the experience that throughout my life, even before I started working on way well before I ever started working on this, um, I would be talking about my life to people.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: And generally the response I kept getting over and over was, I don't know how you do it, or I don't think I could do it the way that you've done it.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it sounds like a compliment, but in those moments when I would be sharing with someone something difficult I had been through, it kind of made me feel like they weren't understanding how bad things were because it was only kind of propping me up.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was really hoping maybe for the response of like, holy shit, I'm so sorry.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but often I was just, you know, so over the course of my life, um, at some point after I graduated, and this, I mean, this literally still happened like a week ago with someone, um, I started actually reflecting more and was curious, like, what are people responding to?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't understand what I'm saying, that people different people are just regularly telling me this thing.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think what I have nailed down is that often people find themselves feeling curious and also open to how I've managed things because I think people anticipate that with hard things, you're going to lose yourself in it.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the thing people were often responding to was the fact that I was describing this very hard thing, but I was still me, or there were still parts of me that were fully intact.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to be very honest, that has not been the case in every hard moment of my life.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've really done a bad job of this at times.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the moments that I do think of when people share that with me, it's the times where I'm talking about a really hard thing and I'm still me while I'm going through it or after having gone through it.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so there are four components of the forward method.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: The way I spell forward is F-O-U-R, because there are four components, and each letter in four represents a different component by that letter.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: So the first component is we're gonna frame the problem.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna figure out if the problem we're dealing with is something we fix, something we face, something for that we forget.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Very quickly, we fix the things that have a solvable action solution.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Something that if you change something, the outcome is what you want.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's the simplest type of problem there is.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Losing Wi-Fi connection, you fix it.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's that kind of stressor.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: We face the things that we are choosing to tolerate discomfort for a very good goal.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, if you want to talk to your boss about um a raise or transferring to a different team that they're starting because you think your skill set is better applied for that, or you would be a valuable asset for that.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it gives you anxiety to think about having that meeting or to have to pitch yourself in that way, push through.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really good goal for yourself, for your self-worth worth at work, self-esteem, advocacy for yourself, push through that discomfort and do the thing.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Then we're gonna forget the things that are unhealthy to accept.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: If you're in a work situation where your boss really overworks you or is constantly demeaning you or in, you know, making you feel like you're worthless.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: If that boss is not capable of change, that is the kind of scenario that will deplete you very quickly over time.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's not healthy to accept, it's not worth staying there.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that everything has that option, but if you have an option to let something go, even if it's hard, we want to do that.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And those are the stressors that we forget.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the first component of the forward method.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: You fix, face, or forget whatever stressor you're dealing with.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: The O is outlook.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not telling you to be positive.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also not telling you that everything's gonna work out.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: The outlook here is that one, you are capable of struggle.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: I know that's unpopular these days, but you are absolutely built psychologically and physically to struggle and to survive.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: So the idea that you will not get through something is probably bullshit.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: There are things that are going to really take everything you have.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: There are going to be things that change you, but I don't know that it means that you're going to be broken as a result of it.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to have the outlook that you can overcome whatever is to come.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that is also being open to all your options.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: The reason for that is that if there are certain options that you're taking off the table, you're likely losing options that might have a lower brain dollar cost.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, if you're in a really hard job and it's really hard to think about leaving because you think I just can't, it would be failure if I left.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it would be really hard to find another job.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Those things might, not the failure part, but it might be hard to find another job.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: But if you tell yourself that you will absolutely never be able to find one or that this is going to destroy the rest of your life for whatever reason, there are going to be options about leaving or pivoting or changing something that you're not willing to entertain.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: And those things might be a lower cognitive cost, brain dollar cost, than if you stayed.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's really important that you remind yourself I'm capable of struggling, I'm capable of surviving hard things.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I am going to just be open to reviewing all the options.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: The third component is understanding.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: You are going to be trying to understand the scenario outside of yourself.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: The reason for that is when we are in the middle of a stressful situation, the amygdala, which is the part of the brain that focuses on threat, on fear, on finding the scary thing, is super activated.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: So when you're stressed out, your brain is very, very aware of the things that are doing that to it.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: You're in the middle of the storm.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: You can't be clear in your thinking when your mind is focused only on identifying and controlling the stressor.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: So what we want to do is we want to give it outside information.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: The reason why that works is that you're actually engaging the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that's in charge of organizing and now and analyzing and making decisions and sequencing problems and all the things that go into critical decision making, by integrating outside information, you are going to be able to have more options because you're not in the middle of the storm anymore.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it's important that you understand you're not the first person to have this problem.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: So talk to people.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to people that you know, buy a book, listen to a podcast.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Anything that gets you information that's outside of your scenario is going to be helpful so that your whole brain is fully working toward finding the most clear goal.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then finally, the very last step, the R and forward, is reflection.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: We're not journaling, you can, but that's not what the R is.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Reflection here means you are going to be extracting meaning from the situation to convert it into a lesson.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: The reason we do that is pain, if you don't do anything with it, is just pain.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: That whole thing of like what doesn't kill you makes you stronger is crap.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's not real.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes, if it doesn't kill you, it'll make you bitter, it'll make you angry, it'll make you resentful.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be really careful with the kind of pain you hold and then what you do with it.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so the way that we give pain purpose and we become stronger after the really hard thing is by finding the things we learned so that we give there that thing a little bit of meaning so that it doesn't have to define you moving forward.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to be clear, you don't have to be grateful for the hard thing.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: It can still be a hard thing you wish had never happened, but I think it's really important to recognize how it made you better or gave you a different perspective or how you have better understanding now because of it.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's the forward method.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: These are four components that help to keep your mind and your brain right as you move through a very hard thing.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason that this works is that you are going to be activating and engaging parts of your brain that tend to either not be integrated as much in the stress response, or um, it's going to be helping to keep your brain kind of healthy so that we don't get stuck by either hemorrhaging brain resources or making decisions based on fear alone.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's really interesting what you're you're saying, and it's interesting when you said about that adage, you know, about it doesn't make you stronger.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know that a lot of people, um, I can think of people quite close to me who've been through really bad experiences and they are very bitter, very, very bitter.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost as if um they've almost been stuck in time in in you know, at the end of that experience, and it's almost as though mentally they haven't been able to move forward in their lives.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I I was just interested, how does someone know when they need to um they need outside understanding rather than constant rumination?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: When when does someone know that?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think if you're ruminating, you're there, right?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I think um that that's a perfect that's a perfect tell.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um if we think about generally how we move through decisions in our life, we often can think about things, make a decision at some point, and then we move on.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you find yourself running through scenarios, the same scenario, over and over and over, or you know, something I've done, and I know people tell me they do it too, is like, have you ever had an argument with someone while you're in the shower?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you just rehearse what you would tell that person or what you would do in a certain once you're there, something's wrong.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: We have to be doing something because the reason that that's happening is your brain is looking for relief or it's looking for control, or it's looking to be expressed somehow.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that gets exhausting, and that costs the brain resources to just hold and mull something over and over.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: If you're in a moment and you're unhappy or unfulfilled, or you feel like you're not connecting with things that used to bring you joy and you're not able to feel that anymore, something's wrong.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Something is not okay.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you feel like there are parts of you you don't have access to anymore and you don't know where to go from here, look for outside help.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean go to therapy.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it could.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know I've done that in different parts of my life, but I think at least in my part of the world where I live specifically in the United States, everyone feels like they have to get through life on their own.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: No one will accept help.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: No one wants to admit that they, you know, are struggling with something that they think they shouldn't be struggling with, that they should just be managing like everybody else.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is most people are struggling in ways that other people are struggling.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And no one was meant to go through life alone.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we can actually harness outside information or perspective, it's gonna be incredibly helpful.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give a quick example of this.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: That happened in the workplace for me.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was in um a very prestigious fellowship after I got my PhD.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And um, within a couple of weeks of being in this position, I knew it was the wrong fit.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the environment there was not good for my mental health.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I was really draining myself very quickly to really, you know, my anxiety was very high.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was very unfulfilled.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was not, it was not good.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: But because this was such a prestigious thing and I had just graduated, I truly felt that if I left this position, I would not be able to work anywhere.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: I would be essentially, I would have gone to school forever for nothing.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I was also in a position at that time where I really needed the money.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: We were broke.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: And this position paid, you know, not amazingly well, but it was enough to live.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't know what I was gonna do because I still didn't have my license.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I went, so I realized within a couple weeks this isn't gonna be good for me, but I can't, I felt like I couldn't do anything about it for all the reasons I said.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then I saw a supervisor of mine, not my boss, but a supervisor, a different supervisor.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: And six months in to that position, I kind of broke down and told her that this position was killing me, it wasn't the right fit.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that I felt horrible because I couldn't leave.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: She listened to me, and this is someone who has probably a decade more experience than me.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: And she said to me, I know this is really hard and it's really disappointing that this isn't what you wanted, but you can leave.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like your life is not going to be over.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Look at here's all the things you could consider doing.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And this is just a small list.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: I quit that job four days later.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason for that is I got this outside information that allowed me to see the picture more clearly.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't just running into my own fear anymore.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: I had an outside perspective that allowed me to do additional research because I wasn't just operating on, I cannot leave.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: It will kill my career.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then from there, I went into private practice.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: I then opened my own practice, and now I'm doing this.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so again, I'm not saying my life is an example for how everyone's life can be, but having outside information no matter what the situation is, I think is really critical.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I ask you, and maybe this might seem like a strange question, but what is the smallest, steady, steadiest next step um someone listening to the podcast could take on Monday morning if they'll know that they're already running on empty?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think there are a couple things you can do.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: If it's Monday morning, you're running on empty, I'm gonna encourage you to pause before spending those brain dollars.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because the reality is every night you get a little bit of a deposit because it's you've slept, right?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And sleeping adequately is a deposit.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: So every day you start off with some money.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Unless you can't get out of bed and then you're probably really at zero.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: But right, you have a little bit of money.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: So what I would suggest is Monday morning, every time you have to make a decision, pause and ask yourself whether it's worth spending that money on.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to think about how if you have a million dollars in the bank and you want to order takeout, okay.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: You don't even have to think about it.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you have$20 in the bank and you want to order takeout, you're gonna think about it.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: So this is what I'm saying.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you feel like you have very little money in that brain bank, think before spending.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because what's happening is you're probably just spending because you could at some point just spend it.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: And now there's nothing left or there's very little left.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so pausing before accepting an additional assignment, you don't have to do.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Pausing before you're gonna go and have a conversation that's going to deplete you.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Pause before you decide, you know what, I'm not gonna take lunch today.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: You have to stop for 20 minutes and go take your lunch.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because taking the break and eating is actually gonna be a deposit into your account so that the afternoon is a little bit better working, right?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so pause before you spend money, pause to be able to deposit some of that money.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you can slowly kind of make wake your make your way back.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you're able to, part two would be start practicing the F.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Start framing your problems.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Sit down and actually think about like, okay, what are all the problems or stressors I'm dealing with right now?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: And figure out which category they fall into.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Fix, face, or forget.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't mean you have to do it that day, but it's gonna give you an idea of where things need to be and what you might need to do eventually again to manage that brain bank, but also because it's incredibly exhausting and it's never going to pay off to hold things indefinitely.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think often professionally we do that thinking it's gonna be okay, but it just gets too costly.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Vanessa, um, before we uh you go, can I ask you one final question?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because um it's interesting what you said about your own experience.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I know a lot of people they've worked hard and uh they've probably got the the job of their dreams, and uh then maybe, you know, I think of one particular person they may have overpromised in the interview that they could they could fix things and um they're into the job and you know half the teams disappeared for various reasons and they they know they're struggling.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: What what what would be your suggestion to that person?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: They they're they're in their dream job, but it's it it's clearly not working out.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: They know they're not coping because they're they're exhibiting the behaviors, they're they're telling that they're telling whoever wants to listen, I am, I am not enjoying myself.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say to that person?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, it seems like you're not in your dream job.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right, and that might be actually really hard to just acknowledge.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I was in my dream job, but the job I had in my head and the job I was promised was not the job I got.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I could either continue to pretend like it was and have it drain me and deplete me completely, or I could figure out how to actually find it, and that's what I did, and that's what they can do.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: If you are in a job that you thought was gonna be one thing, and either it doesn't feel the way you thought, or now you don't have any support because your team isn't there anymore, or the demand is actually um unrealistic and unsustainable, and so you're just always disappointing or always failing in some capacity.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's not a dream job.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's a nightmare.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: There is probably somewhere another position that might not, it might not be the dream job, but it might be closer to what you actually pictured.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think from everything you described, I know what it is to work really, really hard and to finally get the thing.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then you get there and it's wrong.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know that that's a that's a I don't know that that's something I need to die with.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that's a moment where it's like, oh, this is disappointing.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: What's wrong here?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Do I need to learn more to make this better?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: I've had, I've also had that experience.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't leave those experiences, but there have been moments where it's like my internship year, for example, was really hard at the beginning.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh my God.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: But it was because I needed to get faster at what I was doing.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: I needed to learn a little bit more to be at the level that I needed to be at, right?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: But then once I got there, I loved it, right?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: So this isn't about working hard or not.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want anyone to leave here thinking, like, oh, this woman doesn't want to work hard.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: I can work really hard, really, really hard.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't about hard work.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't about the every once in a while having to be up until midnight to work.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: I do that now.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like that, you know, yeah, that happens sometimes.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is about the kind of experience that feels really bad or really not right most days.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: You get one life.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Don't choose to live it that way if you can.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: And on that note, very wise note, I want to thank you, Vanessa.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Vanessa, I have to say to listeners, Vanessa has been so patient with Cheryl this afternoon, and I really appreciate you joining us and sharing your insights and your learnings.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that I personally have got so much uh from speaking to you, Vanessa, and um I just want to say thank you for your time.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Vanessa.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: This has been wonderful.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Just one small step.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: It fits into the ABGW philosophy best because it gives you one duple action without pretending that you can rebuild your entire between your breakfast and your food.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, bye for now.