Latest / Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth / 109: Hot trends in cybersecurity with Amit Karp, Partner at Bessemer Venture Partners

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109: Hot trends in cybersecurity with Amit Karp, Partner at Bessemer Venture Partners · Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth

• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to episode 109 of the Tales Bluebird podcast, which exists because at B talk it's hard to get go to market fit, grow revenue and scale to sales fit.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Examples, inspiration, and ideas of people that have been doing this for many years and working with many companies.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that we want your path to go to market fit beyond the less rocky and so you can grow sales faster.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Andrew Monaghan, and our guest today is Amit Carp, a partner at the legendary venture capital firm Bessemer Venture Partners.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Amit, welcome to the podcast.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Excited to be here.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm looking forward to this.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: It took me 109 episodes to get on.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Titan's everything, Amit.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Tight man's everything.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: And Bessemer released mini report, right, two or three weeks ago that kind of spike my interest.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we'll get into that in a second.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: But before we do that, call out to our listeners.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hear from people listening about what's top of mind for everyone right now.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: There must be things that are burning a hole in your brain.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're trying to figure out how do we get from this stage to that stage?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: How do we improve this?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: How do we uh get from our series A to series B and what needs to be done to execute in the sales team to get there, whatever it might be.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm open to these questions coming in, and we can answer them on future podcast episodes.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Send them directly to me at andrew at unstoppable.do.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's unstoppable.do, do at the end.com.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: And or you can message me by video or audio directly at zipmessage.com forward slash unstoppable.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um so Amit, there there is no better way to get to know you personally before we get into the business side than by asking you six very straightforward questions.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: And these are ones that are either ors, they're not up for debate, there's not maybes and perhaps and depends.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Looking for pretty quick answers as as you hear what these questions are.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Are you ready for these?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure, should go ahead.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: First one.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: First one, dive bar or cocktail bar?
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Cocktail bar.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Suite of the four seasons or cabin in the woods?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Cabin in the woods, for sure.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Trick type Jeep or German car with all the gadgets?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: German car.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Beach or mountains?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Beach.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: They say that home is where the heart is.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Where is home for you?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Home is Israel.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Home is Tel Aviv, for sure.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Tel Aviv?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And how did you first make money as a kid?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have any hustles or your your first job?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I was a magician.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: So as a kid, as a teenager.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: I did uh magic tricks and then birthday parties.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: That was the how I started making money.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Were you good?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh good enough for second graders, I assume, or third graders.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope I'm better as a VC than as a magician.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's funny here in Colorado, uh, a guy that used to be the state CISO here is he's on the side, he's a magician as well.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he'll actually put on little shows uh in local places for to show off his his skills.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: And he's pretty good.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's cool to see.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe when I retire one day, I'll I'll come back to it.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh started in my career.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's the first time I've had that from someone.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Usually they say paper rut or uh mowing lawns or things like that.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: But magician, that's awesome.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: So let's let's switch over to business.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, your background, let me quickly summarize what I what I saw is that you spent a little bit of time at was it Bain?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: No, it wasn't Bain.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Where which consulting firm was it?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: McKinsey, McKinsey, McKinsey and Company.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: You spent a little bit of McKinsey and then you joined Bessemer a few years back, and you've been part of their Israel office for for since 2016 or so, is that right?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll run very quickly from my background so not not to bore anyone.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: But but I I was an officer in a ground unit for for the Air Force.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then once I uh once I finished the military service, I went to study computer science at Technon, uh, worked as a developer and then a product manager in a startup.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we got acquired by Omnature.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: I moved to do an MBA at MIT and then joined McKinsey for a while in in New York.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And in 2012, so now exactly 10 years ago, joined Bestemer in in New York at the time.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then about seven years ago, uh we decided to we want to move uh my wife and I and and uh and our daughters that were very young at the time decided to move back uh to Israel.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And uh since the past seven years I've been uh here focusing mainly on kind of cyber infrastructure investments.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And which companies right now are you on the board of or your prime investments you're looking after?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh many.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: So on the board of Axonius, which just announced uh a large round recently, uh on the board of Torque, which is kind of the next generation SOAR, Firebolt, and kind of the uh Cloud Data Warehouse, Autonomo in the Connected Car Space, uh Zoom in and then B2B SaaS, many, many more.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna walk through about that.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 10 or 11 boards at this point.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this kind of brings me to my first question, which is uh it seems to me in the last few years, and I don't know, five years, maybe ten years, there has been an unprecedented amount of high-quality cyber startups coming out of Israel.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think we've all, or most of us will have heard about the connection back to 8200, um, which you know for me is the equivalent of the NSA or GTHQ, but for the Israeli uh forces.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um is that really the what's going on, or is there more to it than that?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is there something something in the water in Tel Aviv that is causing all these really good cyber startups to come to the fore?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a good question.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I I I think that's definitely a major piece of that, 8200.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: And for those who don't know, it's kind of uh equivalent of NSA in in the Israeli army or the in the Israeli in the IDF.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: But the difference is that in the Israeli army, like everybody goes to the army.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, like think about like if you're recruiting employees, and every year you have like the entire country go through the process, and you can kind of pick an 8200 is that out there, and they can just pick the kind of the bright and uh kind of the brightest of them all and and bring them into one unit.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: So like every year they have a crop of like the top smartest 18-year-olds, and they kind of bring in in into 8200, and the average age at 8200 is like 23.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: These are like young kids, but the problems that they're dealing with and the kind of things they're doing is just insane.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and the mentality they've been able to kind of build there in terms of kind of uh can-do attitude, like trying new things, and a lot of it is just like the naivety of these like young kids that I think can do everything, just creates magic.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and then what happens is six years later, many of these people they just leave the the the army, just retire, you know, they just finish their kind of military service.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and at that point, you just have a huge know-how in terms of like cyber, big data, AI, and and all these things.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they have a very strong network oftentimes because of other people who kind of served with them for for six years, like think about like you know, like like they like you know from morning till night, like every day all the time, which is creates like a very, very strong uh typically kind of network.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: And many of them just go and either launch startups or join startups and then later join startups.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of a very it's it's a very common path.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and that created a lot of the kind of the cyber basically industry here in Israel, and many of the people come from 8200.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not only that, it's it's it's it's at this point, it's more than that.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, I was surprised and I just looked recently, and and now it's it's almost, I think, like 30% of global funding for for cybersecurity are Israeli startups.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, this tiny country with 8 million people drives 30% of global, this is not just the US, this is like you know, globally, uh, of funding, and and 40% of cyber unicorns are Israeli at this point.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: So if you look at kind of the entire cyber unicorn universe in the world, 40% of them would be Israeli companies.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and what's driving that, it starts with that 8200, but like the 8200 is you know, it's it's kind of a necessity, but it doesn't get you all the way there.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what happened with cyber is that there's there's now almost like a path because you have role models.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: I look at the kind of the if we take it, you know, one step back.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: So roll back like seven years ago, many of these like people that go out of the army, and in Israel still, there were like many cyber startups in Israel seven years ago, but they were all kind of building technology, then selling them through like Cis uh CISO, selling them through Cisco, or or selling for like IBM or like one of these channels.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and most of the time they got acquired like by IBM or by Microsoft or one of these for like a hundred million dollars, two hundred million dollars.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: That was kind of like the typical kind of scenario for for a cyber company.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then what happened is in the past seven years, we started seeing companies go directly, sell directly to CISOs, build a large sales team in the US, scale sales teams, kind of build larger companies in Israel, don't not sell early, start building independent companies.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: And what happens now is there's kind of a role models for these young entrepreneurs who are launching cybersecurity companies because they see others that have built companies that are now worth a billion or 10 billion if you look at Sentinel One and others, and they obviously want to imitate them and they wanted to kind of dream bigger, and there's more funding that comes to these companies because people realize there is more, the opportunity is much larger than it used to be, including us, for example, as Bestimmen, we're a very large fund.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: We have discussed Bestman, where we manage uh we now work out of our 11th fund, it's a$3.3 billion funds.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And historically, cyber was like nice, but it was difficult to return a large fund because these acquisitions were very were small.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And now, as these companies think bigger, like we're investing much more in cyber, and like us many other VCs, so there's kind of like a snowball effect here of like better founders, there's a kind of a more natural path.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: They all speak to each other, they know each other.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very close community.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: The the Israeli cybersecurity, like all these founders know each other, they're all talking to each other, all giving each other kind of uh guidance all the time, more funding.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then what happened is at some point Israel became kind of known for cyber, or more known even than it used to be.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And at this point, you're starting having CISOs coming over to Israel to meet companies, which kind of feeds itself and that snowball effect kind of feeds itself more and more.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Hence, you're just seeing better and better and larger and larger uh cyber companies here, if that makes sense.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it seems like then that they've you know it's really found its feet, right?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's going from early, early beginnings and trying new things, and suddenly the model rose up and now everyone's on the same similar path, right?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: About how they want to go to market and how they want to launch in different parts of the world.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh really cool to see these companies come through.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm wondering what advice you give to these companies when they are trying to build a team in the US, when they are trying to you know break uh how do you how do you advise them to go by doing that?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it it's a good question.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And there's not like one size fits all.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because we have companies in in in cyber that are kind of more targeting larger enterprises when you like you really need like a large sales force in in the US, which for typically helps with when the CEO or the management team at some point kind of relocates to the US to help kind of build that go-to-market motion.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then we have others which are setting kind of like more mid-market, more over the internet.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: At that point, like you don't have to move to the US.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: So some of the CEOs stay here in Israel and they kind of build a management team either here in Israel or or some of the go-to-market team here either in Israel or in the US.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um but these playbooks have become more common.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing that many people don't notice, but if you kind of look at many of these Israeli startups, the people they bring or they hire as their kind of sales leaders or marketing leaders are people who worked in Israeli companies before.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like a network.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: So Twustlock, they got acquired by Palo Alto.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Now you see like their previous VP sales working for another cyber company that's Israeli, and their VP marketing working for another Israeli company.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's it's probably kind of the same thing with uh Adalom.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just like it's not just a network of the Israelis, it's also kind of the same network now with the with the executives that work with these companies because they're kind of they know how to work with these companies, they know the pros and the cons of working with Israelis, and it's also a network so it's easier to reach them oftentimes.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of built too.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Remember uh I was chatting to Mike Baker, who's the CRO over at No Name, and I was asking him about that because he was he was the first sales leader at Armist, and then he went he went to No Name, so two Israeli companies in a row.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he was saying he loves the culture in that it's so uh it's so focused on delivering and delivering fast.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, you know, whereas you might be used to working with teams over here where new features get delivered in in months or quarters, you know, what tends to come out of the teams over in Israel is the is features delivered in in a couple of sprints.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: And just the the unbelievable, unbelievable nature of the culture to just drive forward is what energizes him when he's working with uh these teams.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's very, very true.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like the mentality is very like can do mentality.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's no technical problem that can be solved.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: And have a company, it's sorry, I'm not gonna say the the customer name, but we like they got a really large customer and and early on, and then they realize they don't have like half of the things that the customer needs, and it's like tomorrow and they need to deploy it, and like one of the co-founders like set like all night and like he just like somehow hacked like all these things so they're gonna kind of work.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then like that mentality, like you you you typically don't have it in in many companies outside of the US.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that like you know, there is no there's like there is no such thing as like impossible.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like they don't believe in the world impossible.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and there's like very much of a kind of a delivery mindset.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: People are very straightforward, like they're not gonna know there's like no fluff, no bullshit, like you know, immediately to the point, uh which has a lot of benefits, but obviously you need to kind of it it's good for everyone, but there's always not for everyone.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's not for everyone, exactly.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like you need to learn how to to work with it and how to cope with it.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because people are gonna be very direct.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna tell you immediately like you you'll hear, you know, like in uh a meeting with like 10 people with Israelis, it it's always gonna seem like you know, like an argument.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's not it's not an argument.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's how they talk to each other.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, people cut each other off all the time.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Or we're gonna kind of you know uh it's kind of the way, but when it works, it's it's like it's it works really well.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, one of my clients there, CEO, does a yeah, I heard him do a little 15 minutes on you know the culture and and how how, as he said, how we communicate and what it really means, not what you think it means and and things like that.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really good for the US go to market team to kind of hear from him about you know, translate that culture to what they're used to so they can understand what's really going on.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was really useful to hear that.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and by the way, the Israelis often need the opposite.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, like I have people where you see CEOs who like they you know, they meet like a CISO and they'll hear like that that's really interesting, and and they think the interesting would be like, wow, this is great.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: He said it's interesting.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like the interesting would be like, you know, this is not interesting.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: What was interesting was like it's exciting, you know.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like so like that part, like you know, the kind of the translation back uh to Hebrew.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: So in your in the Bessemer report that came out recently, there were three areas that that you highlighted as I think the the focus really was where you as a company, you as a team are looking to direct investment.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're trying to write or or create these trends.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: The first one was I'll read out the headline, I'll let you kind of expand.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Security spend will move to the forefront for businesses in all sectors.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the kind of the the unsaid thing there was uh that uh it's been very concentrated so far, cloud, highly regulated industries, but you see that going horizontal into different verticals.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: And just even before I go into that, like the the other thing that's really interesting with cyber in general, by the way, and is we look at startups, it used to be we we released that, we had uh kind of top 10 cybersecurity companies like index, that we were like public cyber-only companies, and we first released it in 2016 that list.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time, the total market cap was 75 billion for these companies.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: But what more interesting than that, the companies there were like Checkpoint, Palo Alto Network, Symantec, obviously, Splunk, uh, Proof Point, Imperva, CyberArc, etc.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the companies in 2016, if you looked at kind of like top 10 public independent companies, they were all kind of founded either in the 90s or like it's most like it's early 2000s.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: So what it meant is that the leadering cyber companies were kind of like really established old school, if I can say, companies.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it was very difficult for a new cyber startup to become a market leader because you had to at some point get acquired by Palo Alto or Splunk or one of the like because you just couldn't like get to market fast enough.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and if you look at the list that we did uh last year, 2021, obviously the the market cap uh quadrupled uh for the top 10 uh companies.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: But but even more interesting than that, six of the top 10 companies are companies were founded in the past decades.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that's like CrowdStrike, Okta, Zscaler, Cloudflare, uh, and others, which means that for the first time ever, there's an opportunity for cyber startups to not get acquired along the way, but really build independent companies and category-defining companies, which makes it really, really interesting.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and that kind of touches the uh what I'm going to talk now about kind of the cyber spend moving to the forefront of kind of all business sectors.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because uh if you look at all the cybersecurity spend, obviously it's it's a massive market, over$150 billion annual spend.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it accounts about for about like 6% of IT spend.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it it is growing versus kind of the IT spend, but it's still kind of typically around 6% uh spend.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: But what historically you've seen is for for some sectors like software and internet, obviously, financial services, and others, the the spend for cyber was much higher.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And other industries were kind of, you know, it's not like they didn't care about cyber, but it was like much less of an issue.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: And here, like think retail, think healthcare, think uh chemicals, you know, industrial manufacturing, etc.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because some of them were just either not connected uh to the internet, or or that you know, they they never thought about cyber as something that's gonna be relevant for them.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're seeing now, and and this is just uh kind of the tip of the iceberg, just like starting, you know, it's gonna obviously grow more and more, you're starting to see attacks on healthcare systems.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you're starting to see hospitals suddenly getting uh attacked.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and we had something here in Israel uh uh last year.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you're starting to see obviously chemical uh plants and kind of real industrial uh engineering and industrial manufacturing plants kind of get attacked and and uh and suddenly because for the first time they're connected, and you had obviously the kind of the the time that JBS ransomware, which kind of wiped out fifth of the US beef capacity in one day.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and you're gonna see more and more of these, especially obviously now with kind of the climate in Russia and Ukraine, uh, which means that cyber is now becoming a dominant factor.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, for the large financial services, it's becoming even more dominant than it ever was, but there were many different industries or different uh areas that were way behind, and they're still mostly behind, but they're kind of running quickly now as they realize that they just have to build that cybersecurity closer.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's not just the industries, the other thing is kind of if you look at the kind of the market, it used to be that cyber was important again for Fortune 500 or for kind of large enterprises.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: And now you're seeing these kind of mid-market companies and now even like the SMBs realize that wow, like they're getting hacked as well.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and you see some attacks kind of you know shut down, like you know, businesses, small businesses, uh uh at a very large scale.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: So now they have to find uh solutions.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And again, they're not gonna buy all kind of all the crowd strikes and and and the uh and uh kind of the Palo Alto's of the world, like they need something simple.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a kind of an entire market of like kind of the mid-market, smaller kind of companies, SMBs, that's underserved today, and they're looking for solutions.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other kind of area that I'm also interested in is more in the consumer side.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because as consumers, again, people didn't think you know, you had your antivirus or whatever on your laptop, um, but that was it for in terms of like cyber.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And now you're seeing more identity theft.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh as people started holding crypto, then obviously like that becomes like a much more interesting target than the they used to, you know, getting to your Coinbase account, uh, getting to your Bank of America account, etc.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh your Gmail now.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: If someone hacks for your Gmail, like basically like you know, they have access to this point like your for your entire life.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so uh I I'm sure we're gonna see more and more companies that help solve that problem too, kind of the consumer side of uh of cyber.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it basically means that all the areas, categories, markets that kind of didn't think cyber first are gonna start thinking cyber or gonna be a much more larger factor in kind of their day-to-day.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think in the what I see on the SMB side is they are becoming more aware, but they're also getting a lot of uh passed down requests from their business partners and their you know vendors they work with, and you know, it's a whole ecosystem.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Data is passed around so much now between companies that uh you can't just send data to a company and not have some expectations of them to look after it.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, a hundred person company suddenly has to be very diligent about how they look after the data of the Fortune 200, 500 they're working with.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um Yeah, exactly.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and the stock two, and kind of all the compliance issues and then kind of the supply chain attacks, which have now become uh one of the easiest routes to go into these like large enterprises through their supply chain, which forces Many companies have never thought about cyber is something that they care about.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Going back to your your comment about the go-to-market differentiation from people going after enterprises versus FMB.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, one of the things that we see in the in North America is there really isn't the set way to go after FMB, right?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: But it seems a much bigger challenge to say, well, how do you reach all those sub 250 employee companies?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: You can't go to them with a the Salesforce, right?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: You have to rely on partners, but partners aren't great at making markets.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: What are you seeing with your companies about how they've tackled that?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it it can be the obviously the sales force.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: You can sell, you know, you can send people to play golf, there's not even a CISO, like someone who manages IT at the shop of like 500 people.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the channels is nice, but it's difficult.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: You can't build a company on channels because it could take years until you you reach your market.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: But we are seeing more and more companies with kind of going with kind of a product led the growth motion, kind of a PLG, where and it's it starts with a product.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it you build a product that's much more intuitive, much more self-serve.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: You can kind of you know go to websites, try it, or install it, deploy it.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you would have to speak to someone in order to kind of make the the the purchase.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like there is a sales involved in it, but it's more around kind of like pricing or or things like that, or kind of some features, but you understand the product just by by kind of playing with it and installing yourself.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it starts with kind of the product and then it's kind of the similar marketing, and then sales is kind of tight and comes last.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: But if you start with sales, it's it would never work.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like that would be kind of the last piece of that kind of uh puzzle.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, way too expensive to do it that way around, right?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: The second thing that was on your your list was cloud security.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I forget the exact stats, but I want to say in 2021, cloud security as a category commanded the most investment dollars, the most funding dollars in cyber.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and how are you guys viewing that market?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so cloud security is by far the kind of the largest growing.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's still not the biggest, but it has the fastest growth out of any category above a 41% Kager uh according to Kartner.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: So just growing faster than any other category.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're seeing basically is if you're kind of looking, and I'm simplifying here things a bit, but if you kind of look at kind of the old way of or the on-prem world and all the categories that exist, you're starting to see kind of equivalents of each one of these categories in kind of a cloud-first company or cloud-first security company.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, whether it's got network, you had like checkpoint, now you're seeing kind of Zscaler and Kato, or the identity management with SalePoint.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now you're seeing companies doing this identity management for cloud.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Or kind of the sim.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: You see, you had like Splunk, now you have companies like Vivo in our portfolio, or Hunters that kind of uses, you know, it sits on top of Snowflake and kind of separates the Snowflake, would be where you keep the logs, and Hunters would kind of provide the same functionality, or data security with Veronis, and now we're seeing uh a few companies kind of doing kind of the same thing for cloud first.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: We have a company called Centra that's kind of in the data security poster management, WAF, you know, Perva, now no name we mentioned before, and SOLP kind of going into APIs first.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then just obviously the CSPM, kind of a more kind of a catch-all phrase, but kind of replacing the tenables and the Palo Alto's and kind of the and and the qualists and all these kind of sniffers or agents with uh Wiz and ORCAR and lace work.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so basically each one of these categories are getting kind of redefined with uh kind of new entrants, and obviously kind of you know, Palo Alto with Prisma and others kind of the the regular kind of the heavy players or the the traditional players or incumbents are also kind of trying quickly to evolve and provide solutions for this industry.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and what we're seeing, which is really interesting, is like in each one again, there's there's a multiple of categories, CWPP, which is kind of the workload protection, you know, Aqua and uh and StackRocks and Twistlock, kind of you know, checking your your containers.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and then the companies are more kind of on the left side, uh so kind of managing your CI CD and securing your CI CD.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: We have a company called Legit that helps with that.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like that touches cloud too, kind of you know, pre-production and post-production.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: So there's like a lot of overlap between these different things, and and you see companies coming in from different angles, over time we're gonna see way more consolidation.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, there you're not gonna have uh a different solution for each one of these like small categories, but there is now a race towards building kind of almost like the new or replacing all the or or many of these traditional vendors with new companies that are kind of cloud first.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we think there's huge opportunities there.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, if you fast forward 20 years from now and I'd ask you, you don't have to be like very visionary to think that probably cloud security 20 years from now is going to be more important than what today is like another traditional network and point security.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is that why there's such a flow in it?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: You see some of the runs that were taken last year and the valuations of companies that the ARR isn't that big, but yet they're commanding three, four billion dollar valuations and taking$500 million.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Is that is that why they're they're they're trying to grab the market and therefore be the player that's gonna be in place for five, 10 years?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that that's exactly a story there.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's kind of a land grab at this point.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, think about this as like kind of the the kind of the Wild West days, like there's like you know, there's the gold somewhere and everybody's rushing to and everybody's trying to get as much gold as possible.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you're already starting to see that consolidation with companies acquiring others, so like you know, Aqua, which is container security, acquiring a CI CD company, Wiz obviously kind of coming in with CSPM and then now saying they're gonna secure everything that's that's on the cloud.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: So so you people realize, and what happens is investors are making this large bets in this space with these companies that are early, uh no name or Salt that raised kind of unicorn rounds early on, Orca, the same thing, Wiz that raised a six billion dollar valuation two years after being uh founded or launched, and and Lacework that raised 1.3 billion, again, not a 1.3 billion valuation, but raised literally raised like 1.3 billion uh to compete in that CSPM world.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of a bloodbath there.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and what we're seeing, and then the reason is that everybody realizes gonna be the prize is very lucrative for whoever wins these games, and and they're all kind of kind of armor their companies with with more and more cash.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think that we were gonna see like many casualties there.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: So not all these companies that raise that unicorn valuation, especially in this area, are gonna survive.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like a poker game when like you know someone goes all in and then all the rest are forced to either go all in or just hold.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but there's gonna be like one winner, or like you're not gonna have you know multiple, maybe there's gonna be like a few leaders in kind of cloud security, but there's not gonna be like 50 uh independent companies and there are like 50 cyber unicorns per cloud, give or take, or something like that.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't be like casualties, obviously, but the winners are gonna get like a very liquid price.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, having all that money does not in any way guarantee success, right?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: In some ways it can be a burden.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you've taken a$500 million Iran, you feel like you've got to use it, and people get very loose on where they spend money when they have that sort of money kicking around.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the, again, that's part of the things that changed.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: It might change now.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if we're gonna have time to evolve with the market, but one of the things that changed in in the past two years with kind of that influx of of money, of capital that went to these companies very early, is in in cyber specifically, like there always used to be a path to exit.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was part of the beauty of of cyber startups.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's many acquirers because they kind of the traditional players, Palo Alto and and and uh Symantec and then etc.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: There was always like a new category, and they would acquire one of the startups to make sure that they kind of have filled that hole too, you know, or to have like another you know product in in their belt, or just kind of the cloud vendors or the IBMs of the world, or like even Oracle, like you know, Google you're seeing.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: So there were like many acquiries for these companies, but once you start playing that game, that kind of that all-in poker game, when you you're all uh all in, like that acquisition becomes much more difficult because these companies raise it a huge valuation very early on, which kind of closes the window for for acquisition.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if it goes back to that world, uh, but in the past year, like it was more difficult to get into that kind of acquisition path because they put some money.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know uh what what the great signs are for exuberance, but uh uh one of the companies that you mentioned in the cloud space, I saw last week they were advertising for a swag manager, a full-time person to come on staff to manage the giving out of t-shirts and hats and bags.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I it seemed to me that might have been uh you know a company with a lot of money on their hands, let's say.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: I can only imagine which one of uh these it was.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's crazy with this way.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: But uh what it does do is is lead us into your third area, which is the great consolidation is afoot, right?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I don't know what the right number is, and you may or may not know, I don't know, but uh I heard uh recently that uh 5,600 security vendors right now in being tracked by various uh kind of companies out there.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like a lot, but whatever the number is, it's a ton, right?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you just need to look at the space and go, how does anyone make any sense of how these companies are all different, what's true and what's not true, where they should be buying stuff and where they should not be buying stuff.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's a challenge right now, and I'm I'm guessing that CESOs and security teams are kind of throwing their arms up in the air a little bit, saying, you know, we need to do better.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, this is by far, you touch, this is like the the biggest problem or the major problem of with cyber these days.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and just you know, I can see a show slides here, but we we once showed our partners just to understand, like we can explain to them you know what we're dealing with cyber, and and we just showed them like in our CRM how many companies start with the word psi.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and it was like, you know, like more than uh it was like about a hundred companies.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: They just start with the words, you know, with CY, you know, cyactive, cyber, cybeat, cyber bail, cyber agents, cyber armor, cyber carrier, cyber uh centric.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's like, you know, that can go on forever.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: And just think about what the CISOs are going uh through when they see all these companies and obviously all the marketing and and the websites and everything just look the same for for all of them.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's just very, very difficult in in that sense.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's difficult for both sides.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's difficult for the startups to kind of rise above the noise.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of the number one problem for for for cyber companies.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, part of the reason you we kind of what we touched before, these like mega rounds are just like the only reason they do these is just to kind of rise above the noise.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you know like they're kind of a legit company, you know, they don't need the money, they're they're brazen, they all have like they're sitting on on piles of cash and they just keep raising more money, so they're kind of you know, they're on kind of they're heard and and known.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then obviously from uh the CISO perspective, it's just impossible.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: You just can't kind of diligence and you can kind of assess you know 50 hundred vendors for for for every small kind of cyber kind of piece that you need in in your in the in in your security uh suite.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: But having said that, like they don't have an option because the existing vendors they're just not fast enough.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and the cyber threats, the pace in which they're kind of, you know, you have a cube threat and print like API, cloud, developer, CI CD, open source.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: The pace that these threats are are are coming out to live, uh and the pace of innovation and both kind of and the hackers is such that the traditional vendors are just you know, they're just they're helpless in in that sense.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hence the the C SOS, they're they're kind of they're forced to work with many vendors and and to to work and and have more.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: So even though they want to consolidate, they need other solutions and other startups all the time and rely on them.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the areas that we really like, obviously people want to consolidate, but what one of the problems is that you have like so many security solutions today, you just can't do anything with them.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know, you you know, you don't even know oftentimes what you have, you haven't configured them, you're not leveraging them completely.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the theses that we really like is companies that either kind of touch all the other security tools or sit on top of the security tools and just help them become better.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll I'll I'll I'll give three examples.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Think about like super tools.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have a company called Exonius, uh, which basically what they do, which is very smart.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Say, okay, you already have like a lot of security tools out there, we're gonna connect to all of them in your security and IT tools, and and we're gonna help kind of give provide you full visibility to what's going on in your network and in your assets, but basically just by kind of consolidating the data that's already there in all these other tools.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, they connect to your CrowdStrike or your EPP and your CMDB and whatever you have for NAC and the network and whatever you use for cloud.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can start doing things like you can say, like, what endpoints do I have that don't have the latest CrowdStrike version on them?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: So CrowdStrike would know where they're on, the network or or whatever you have would know what's you know what laptops you have on the network, and by kind of combining both of them, you can suddenly do these things.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: So basically just take data that's already there, but everybody kind of looks at the world like in their own kind of prism, prism mind kind of uh, you know, that you know, those look from the network, this one looks from the user, the octa knows from the kind of the axis, and by just by combining all of them, you suddenly have like one single pane of glass to manage your environmental security suite.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: Or we have another company called Tor, which helps you basically kind of automate many of the processes or kind of maintained processes that you often do.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: But the beauty there is kind of a drag and drop interface, very easy.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: And they again they connect to all your security tools and Slack and then whatever you use for communication, and they allow you to kind of build workflows very easily.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, like if something jumps at proof point like a suspicious, Slack the user, ask them whether they know that person or not, and you know, like if a yes no button, if yes can release, if no, you know, quarantine on on you know on crowd strike and and kind of like these kind of things, which historically again, like they're using what you already have, but just helping you kind of automate, make it better.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Same thing by the way, another company we have is a company called Legit Security in the CI CD pipeline.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there you also you have like a bunch of tools today.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: You have your sneak and check marks, and you have something that's kind of scanning for for for for uh secrets in in your today in your Git.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: But nobody knows how the pipeline looks like.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody knows whether are you using Sneak on your entire code base?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Are you using check marks on your entire boys uh code base?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: Is everything that goes to production that they did go through like all these things?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and what they do is again, they kind of get into your pipeline, they see all the tools that are used, and they kind of help you get that visibility and management understanding of every is everything's kind of like all the code that goes to production scanned through by sneak.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: No, did it go through like all the check marks that I need before push to production?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Who has access?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: So all these things that like that's one of the investment pieces I like most is like don't deploy another tool that's gonna solve another small problem.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: Just leverage what you have now, but make like all the existing tools better.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's uh it's an interesting area.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: I remember uh one of the things that I've heard in the past is the idea that you know as a security team, it it's not a matter of if you can protect yourself, right?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's literally 5600 vendors to pick from.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: The question is well, how do you do that given your re resources, your your capital you can invest, your OpEx, things like that.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: And what you're saying is it's not just uh consolidation in terms of traditional acquisition, it's it's actually making the existing infrastructure, the existing tools more effective, and the team, I guess, more effective by having that wider view across tools, not just uh Exactly.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of like the fabric across the tools.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't think that, you know, I don't you're not gonna nobody's gonna be like a just a Palo Alto shop or just uh uh, you know, uh like it's just impossible these days.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like you are gonna have a best of breed, but like the problem of the best of breed is they're all siloed.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: So if you kind of have become that glue and fabric between these different things, I think there's a lot of interesting opportunities there.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that uh I like what you said earlier as well, which is you know, traditional, let's call them traditional cyber companies, the bigger older ones, you know, they do think in year or two-year roadmaps.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um the people that don't think in two-year roadmaps are is the are the hackers, right?
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: They think in days and weeks.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: And the Yeah, Equifox.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then like suddenly all the open sources kind of hacked and everywhere.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: And like if if you're you know, you're gonna if you wait until Palo Alto, we needed something for our open source vulnerabilities, like you know, here you go.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Which is where where it's so important that this community of of very agile and and very aggressive startups comes through because they have that role to play.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um one of the one of the things that's uh I've been interested in your view on this, I mean, is uh in the same sort of vein.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: One of the categories that I think has promised a lot, but maybe hasn't quite delivered is around the MSSP space.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they have that promise of we'll take care of a lot of this stuff for you, uh, just outsource your liability and pay us for doing it and your OpEx and all the rest of it.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't seem to have really kind of caught on though, as a as a big thing.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm wondering if you agree with that.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and secondly, you know, why is that?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: I I I think MSSPs they're good for some things, obviously, but but for others there there aren't.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, it depends on like where you go in the market, like for enterprise or mid-market, etc.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: But but I I I I think again, it it's they have the same problem, but just you know, they see it like they also need to deal with like 500 vendors in order to secure your kind of uh security or or make like a full security suite for for you.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's that not tied together, that they don't have the expertise.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: They're not developing tools, they're just kind of procuring tools, configuring for you, and it's very, very difficult because like the pace that you need to do these things is just becomes more and more difficult.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, it solves some problem for some organizations, it's much better than doing in-house, etc.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: But the MSSPs are not gonna be able to solve it.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like if some cyber company provides kind of the building blocks which allow the MSSP to kind of like you know do like everything like without coding, like that would be interesting too, by the way.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but like you need like some vendor that's gonna be kind of MSSP first and to enable them to kind of provide that what they need.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, anything else to you want to touch on before we wrap up?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think we're good.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna put you on the spot here.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a saying, a say, I don't know if it's a sales thing or a or a business phrase that you hear from your portfolio companies that uh that you wish could be dispatched into the far reaches of space, never to be heard again?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you a quick example on the sales side.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: One is you know, asking prospects what keeps them up at night, you know, very tired, very boring, you know, unimaginative phrase or question.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: Anything like that springs to mind for you working with your companies?
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Probably something around the competitor raising a unicorn round.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: So what there's OFL V, it's yeah.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is there jealousy involved or what what's the uh what's the term?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's not jealousy, it's aggressiveness.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like they all want to be number one and they're all kind of, you know, that's kind of uh what it is.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: We should be doing the same, is is the thing.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: They're raising, you know, he's going around.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: We have to raise fast, you know, like that kind of a thing.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: If we could just calm down everyone a bit, uh that would be great.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: Probably.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if anyone wants to get hold of you, uh, what's the best way to do that?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Best way is my email at karp at bvp.com, carp at bvp.com.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Boy Victor Paul.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've really enjoyed the conversation this morning.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean uh good to get to know you and hear your hear your views on this you know incredibly complex and fast moving space.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.