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My Life Was in My Boss's Hands · The b.reathe Blueprint Podcast

• Katie Harvey: Welcome to the b.reathe Conversations. This series explores how people operate as responsibility, ambition and pressure grow over time. These are not burnout stories and they're not about fixing anything. They're calm, honest conversations about awareness, capacity and what helps performance last. And today I'm joined by Pat Harper. Thank you for being here. How are you? Pat Harper: I'm absolutely fantastic and thank you very much for having me here Katie. Katie Harvey: Amazing. So why don't we start with just a little bit about you and who you are, what you do Pat Harper: Yeah, thank you very much. So I'm Pat Harper and I'm a dad of two children. I've got a four year old and a one year old. And I've also the founder of Total Property Group, which is a property sourcing company in Liverpool. We help people build hands-free portfolios and I'm scaling that business currently. And on top of that, I have my own portfolio. Katie Harvey: Amazing, four and one, that must be quite a challenge to handle. Pat Harper: Yeah, well you know what, you've had one, you think, well, may as well have another. But yeah, mean, it's hard actually to remember life before kids now, but yeah, was definitely very different. Katie Harvey: Yeah, I can imagine. And that actually leads me to my first question now. Knowing you for a couple of years through property entrepreneur, I know that you spent a lot of time in corporate before you made the leap into property. When you look back to that version of you, what was he sort of saying to justify you staying in the corporate world? Pat Harper: Yeah, so the first thing that springs to mind is, well, I had a boss who was basically just continually sold me the dream. ⁓ If you stay around, you can have this car and you can be director and... ⁓ and it just never nothing ever materialized and ⁓ soon found out you know he was full of you know what and then I just realized you know my life is completely in my boss's hands here and I thought you know this just doesn't feel right and I really wanted to do something about it. Katie Harvey: Yeah and then obviously not long after you did make that leap you found out that you were expecting so what was the first thing that went through your head then? Pat Harper: Well, that's right. I I've been slowly building my property portfolio in the background and I have created some passive income, which was a bit of a safety net for me for when I did leave my career and went full time into property. But what I hadn't anticipated is the week after I quit, my wife turned around and said, Pat, I'm pregnant. So, and then obviously, you know, I was a little bit worried by it. I didn't tell her that. said, that's going to be absolutely fine. ⁓ But yeah, it wasn't part of the plan. But obviously I was going full time in property and that kind of just gave me the extra motivation and the extra boost to actually make a success of it. Katie Harvey: Yeah, I was gonna say it kind of adds that layer of pressure that kind of goes, I need to make this work now because we're gonna have a dependent. Pat Harper: Yeah, it makes it all feel very real. Yeah, and there's no there's no doubt about it and it just It definitely, you know, everything's on the line at that point then isn't it? It's like and I mean I was already putting everything into it anyway, but it was like and I really did not want to go back to my to my job, so it was like come on we're gonna make this work and and yes, the next nine months were We're both sweating tears. Katie Harvey: I can imagine. And how do you think life would compare with the kids now if you were still in corporate compared to actually going and taking that leap into property full time? Pat Harper: First thing that they actually thought when you asked that question was I think I just see them much less because I've designed my life now around, so for example, my office is, I've got an office at home, I've got a garden office at home, which is fantastic because... it's out of the house, so I don't hear all the screaming. But I'm close enough to be around for the kids. And obviously, you know, if you've got a nine to five, I mean, I don't think nine to fives even exist. It's more like seven to seven seven. Then all of a sudden, you're probably not seeing them before you go to work. And if you see them when you get home for bedtime, you're probably lucky. if you're in that kind of role. So I'm very fortunate that I've now ⁓ created this life where I can be around. Katie Harvey: Yeah. And what does that look like for you? Pat Harper: Yeah, so I see them in the mornings, which is fantastic. ⁓ Sometimes I wake my four year old up and read a book in the mornings. And then, then my wife is ⁓ part time at the moment, so she has them in the daytime on Sundays. Then I'll see them at lunchtimes ⁓ and then. And then on top of that, obviously, I'm at home when they come home, so can welcome them home. We can play like a bingo game or whatever my four year old likes to do in that moment in time. And then I do bedtimes as well on most nights, which is great. Katie Harvey: And what an amazing thing that you get to do with your kids, because so many dads don't get to do that. And I think that that's not spoken about very often. Is your wife full-time mum? Pat Harper: ⁓ She was up until last week, she was on maternity leave. ⁓ So we've a bit of help from nursery as well but yeah she has been on maternity leave and she's just going back part-time to work now yeah. Katie Harvey: I'm home. Amazing and it's probably nice for her to be able to actually go back to work without feeling the pressure of needing to look after the kids because you're also there as well to be able to help which so many parents don't have that dynamic nowadays. Pat Harper: think that's spot on because you can be the best parent in the world, but when you've got the kids, two kids all day, I think that just tests anyone to the extreme, especially a four-year-old and a one-year-old. So yeah, it's definitely handy to have someone else knocking about. Katie Harvey: Yeah definitely and I can imagine someone, my cousin's Mrs, she's a full-time mum and she always says she needs some adult time. She needs to be away from kids just for a little bit of the day so that she can just be an adult for a bit. Pat Harper: Yeah, yeah, just actually just get some headspace. I think that's probably the number one thing, yeah. Katie Harvey: Yeah and you've got to this place because you've built this property portfolio, you've built a property business that helps other people do the same thing, but you've mentioned on Facebook and posts on social media that you made a lot of mistakes in that time that cost you money, they had bad numbers, rogue builders, all that type of stuff and normally that would tell people to stop. that this isn't meant for them or like just give up but you kept going even though the evidence was kind of piled up against you. What made you do that? Pat Harper: you're never gonna be good at something when you first start doing it. That's number one, isn't it? And you've got to go through that learning curve if you want to get really good at something. And fortunately, the learning curve can be quite painful at some times. And you're right, yeah, I've worked with road builders who've completely balled up my jobs. And obviously there's... You you can get angry when you pull them up on it and you you've got to part ways, you've got to go through all that with builders. That's just part of being a property investor. And luckily enough, we've got some fantastic build team now, but we've been through all the bad ones to get to the good ones. Same with solicitors, same with brokers. It just seems to be the way. so suppose just having faith that... that the pain will lead to something that might resemble success is maybe what kept me going, Katie Harvey: Yeah, I guess there's a bit of an entrepreneurial mindset there, which a lot of people don't have and they would just give up at the first sort of hurdle. But you just kept going and I guess your reason why was quite strong as well. Pat Harper: Yes, ⁓ mean, you know, when the reason why eventually became my kids, but the reason why I suppose even before that whilst I building my portfolio is ⁓ I just never really liked the idea of my whole future being feeling like it's in the hands of my boss. Because, you know, if you, you might have a great boss, but. next week it might change to someone else and then all of a sudden it completely changes your life. I never liked the idea of that so building up that property portfolio was always important to me to have that so I was less reliant on my income. I think that's the key and that's what a lot of my clients are aiming for as well just to be less reliant on their income to build like a plan B passive income. But then, yes, obviously then, when I knew that I had a little one on the way, then my reason why kind of also moved into wanting to successfully support a family as well. Katie Harvey: Yeah, I do love though that your reason why to start with was for you, because I think you got that in your head early enough that it was for you and that you needed to make a change. And then it it leveled up that reason why when you found out you're having kids. I there's so many people out there who were like, ⁓ God, I'm retiring in five years and I don't have a pension or that's I'm not going to survive on that. Now I need to do something. Or I've got three kids and I want to spend more time with them. Now I need to do something. And they don't set it up. beforehand so you've actually set it up so that you can have that life that so many people want but leave until they're in desperate times to actually head for. Pat Harper: It's true, yeah, I was lucky. The thing that started it for me, I read a book on money. ⁓ And that's for some reason that just triggered it for me. And I don't know why it did, but there was just something in that book that just thought, you know what, I want to make a change here and start building something. Katie Harvey: Yeah, I was similar. I read Rich Dad Poor Dad and from there I was like mind blown and it is I think everyone really starts with like a book or a podcast and they're like I need more of this. Pat Harper: Thank you. Yeah, I mean, look, if any teenager should definitely read Rich Dad Poor Dad, that's fantastic. you know what? They may not be interested in doing anything with it, but a lot of them are, they are, and it's better they read it earlier than later because then, know, because people say the best time to invest in property was 20 years ago. Second best time is today, so. Katie Harvey: Absolutely. And now you're running a business where you're actually helping other investors build their portfolio, reduce that overwhelm and kind of take control of all of that stuff so they don't make the mistakes. But building that must create its own version of pressure because doing it for yourself is very different to doing it for other people. So how has that responsibility changed as total property groups grown, as your responsibilities grown? Have you handled that kind of doing it for someone else rather than just you? Pat Harper: Yeah, that's right. I earlier mentioned, if you want to get good at something, you got to go through the learning curve. I mean, there is an alternative. You can basically pay someone who's been through that learning curve to do it for you. And that's what we do as we help people invest in property in Liverpool. And yes, you mentioned we're currently scaling that business and it's not easy scaling a business. There's no doubt about it. every level has another devil is what they say. So we've currently just had a new member of staff and so we started the year with with a year full of goals and milestones we wanted to reach. And one of the first ones was hiring this member of staff because it would give us more capacity and then we can achieve more throughout the rest of the year. Well, we were meant to hire them within one month. It ended up taking three months. So all their milestones and goals have just been pushed right back, unfortunately. The issues we had were... ⁓ we were basically just looking in the wrong places and ⁓ waste a load of money on that. Spoke to a mentor and he was like, what are doing? You're looking in the wrong places. Straight away I fixed it and we found the right person. lessons from that is, yeah, speak to some mentors that are further ahead of you definitely. ⁓ But yeah, mean, now I'm scaling this business. ⁓ We're now supporting, we've got, three direct team members, but also on top of that we've got all the contractors that we pay on a week to week basis. Obviously I'm paying myself as well so I can support my family. So yeah, it does come with its pressures. Katie Harvey: And going back to like the first deal that you did for someone else, the first set up, how did that feel? Pat Harper: I was like, it's like I just scored a goal in the World Cup final. I was like jumping around and high-fiving me, my wife. Yeah. So, but yeah, I mean, like you're working so hard to get up to that stage. I mean, for myself and probably for many people who go through that experience, it's as much as you have faith in. what you're working toward is going to come to fruition. You still have these niggling doubts as like, is this ever gonna work? You know, am I wasting my time and to go back to my job? But yeah, thankfully, you know, I'm very grateful for all the clients. We've got lots of repeat clients now as well. And... And yeah, they all seem very happy. We've got lots of five-star reviews. So yeah, things are going very well. Katie Harvey: Amazing, I'm sure we'll have some people that are potentially looking to invest as well. And I think one of the things that people like you go to property courses, right? And everyone's like, oh, I'll get into property. It's amazing. It's going to give you loads of returns, but they don't really tell you the work that is required to get there. Like everyone starts doing it because they want financial freedom. But like the building phase of these businesses is very rarely any free time, any free cash, any free like fun. stuff. It's all about building that business so having someone like you to go to is massively beneficial for those that don't have that time or they don't want to give up the family time or the job. Maybe they enjoy their job. So yeah can imagine that that's very valuable for a lot of people. Pat Harper: Well, that's it. That's what we're built for basically is, you know, it's people that think property investment is not suitable for them because as you say, they might be working 50, 60 hours, hour weeks in London. And yeah, they've got all this cash and they might be able to put it in stocks and shares. But if you want a return that's going to surpass that and put it into property, then what they're going to have to do is they have to first of all learn how to invest in property. build up all the contacts, get some good experience under the belt and probably go through a load of mistakes like I did. Whereas obviously you can just skip all that and work with someone that you trust. Katie Harvey: Yeah, amazing. I love that. And you're quite far in your journey now where you're pretty relaxed about everything. You see everything as a lesson rather than a failure or a hurdle, which is amazing. And you're quite a positive person. Like I think you're quite chilled, positive. Like that's kind of the vibe that you give off. And I know that there'd be days of stress, but how have you achieved that feeling? Is there stuff that you do every day? Is there like a habit that you've got that you swear by or? Is it just like experience over the years? Pat Harper: No, for me it's definitely not just experience over the years. I've built up some habits that I've figured out I need to do in order to keep this boat going. So number one, it's like how I see it, I'm pushing my brain and my mind every day whilst I'm scaling this business. But if I'm not also pushing myself physically, then it feels like there's an imbalance and then all of a sudden I can't push my brain anymore. So it's like there has to be for me anyway, there has to be them two working in tandem. So it's pretty much one day to Friday. I'm exercising, working out. And it's like... The old me was like, yeah, but that's gonna take an hour, an hour and a half out of your day. But now know that if I don't do that, then the rest of my day trying to work in my business will be much less productive. I feel much worse in myself as well. So obviously you've got many benefits from being physically fit anyway, so I just got to do it. Obviously getting your steps in, that helps. also very difficult to do and 10,000 steps I found it's so difficult to do but it's what you're meant to do so I try and I've just as I mentioned before I've ordered the woot band so hopefully that will encourage me to to do that. So exercise is the number one thing for me which allows me to stay sharp and keep things going. Katie Harvey: Yeah, I'm very similar, exercise is such a huge part for me and I definitely notice a change in mood, a change of energy, all of that stuff if I'm not. And I'm a big believer in you have to give energy to get energy. And one of the ways to do that is by giving energy to movement and you can get that back. Work out in the morning, you feel on fire for the rest of the day. Pat Harper: Yeah, that's it, yeah. And if you don't, for me anyway, it's the opposite. And I know which feeling I would prefer, so yeah. Even when I don't want to do it, I do it. And I never regret doing it, that's the thing. Katie Harvey: And this is the thing, right? It's such a big misconception, like doing this stuff for yourself and taking time for you is taking time away from the business. But actually it's essential to look after yourself so that you can operate at the best possible way that you can. It's like people that skip sleep and they're I'll sleep when I'm dead. It's like, yeah, but if you sleep properly, you'll actually be way more productive and get more done in less time. it's so backwards people are like ⁓ just have four hours sleep that's fine it doesn't work like that Pat Harper: Yeah, no, it's not, it didn't reduce to have a prime minister that just operated on four hours sleep. Was it like John Major or something or it was like, and, that was, and he was running the country and I think he did an all right job. I don't know, but maybe would he have done better if he had eight hours? knows? Katie Harvey: Yeah, it's scary. There are a lot of big names, like old names, that had the exact same routine every single day. They'd have the paper delivered to their office at the same day, they would go for their walk in the afternoon at the same time every single day, and it made them function. I think it's Winston Churchill, actually. He had such a strict routine, but... Your body loves predictability. So if you do what it's expecting you to do, it feels really safe. And then you actually much more relaxed, much more creative. You're not in that like fight or flight mode all the time. So routine is great and starting your day the same way is exactly the same kind of thing like exercising. It makes you feel good. It releases your natural happy hormones and then you can, you can smash the workout afterwards. Pat Harper: Yeah, I think you're right there and there's got to be something in that because if your body's expecting something to happen and you give it at the right time, I mean, you say you should wake up, you should go to bed at the same time every night, wake up at the same time, I mean, every morning, I mean, that's easier said than done, especially on the weekends when you've got two kids. But apparently, yeah, the research is there to say it does work. Katie Harvey: Yeah. Yeah, so I'm fortunate enough not to have kids to ruin my sleep schedule at the moment, but ⁓ I go to bed at the same time and wake up at the same time. And it used to be with alarms, but I wake up naturally at the same time every morning now, as long as I go to bed. And if I don't wake up, it's normally a signal that my body needed an extra half an hour or 45 minutes anyway. Pat Harper: So if you didn't turn up to this podcast today, now I have with no way. Katie Harvey: Yeah, because I don't have an alarm. Although my boyfriend gets up at the same time with an alarm every morning anyway, so I'm sure I'd wake up from that. if you were listening, when if someone was listening and they are where you were, let's say 10 years ago, they're stuck in a job that's eating their evenings, they're telling themselves they just need one more year, they're being made all these false promises by their boss that never actually turn into anything. Pat Harper: Okay, yeah, you've got that space there. Yeah. Katie Harvey: What would be your advice to them to actually move forward? Pat Harper: Yeah, so... You've got to figure out what you want in life, haven't you? I think that's the number one thing because if you're happy in your career, in your job, then that's fantastic. A lot of people are and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. That's great. But if you are getting sick of it, then there's always alternatives out there from my experience anyway. and as I mentioned before the trigger for me was reading the book so it might be you know if you don't know what to do you feel a bit stuck a bit trapped it might be just picking up a book of something that interests you and it's like an educational type book and just seeing where that leads you because maybe there is something else out there that you can pursue. Katie Harvey: Yeah, and it's, think property ultimately is like the one thing in the world that you can invest in and have returns for years. I think there's no doubt about that. But in the world that we're in today, I don't think there's ever been an easier time to set up a small business and get it off the ground. I think bigger, scalable, worldwide businesses are probably a little bit harder to build now. with the use of technology and AI, setting up a small business has never been easier. Pat Harper: Yeah, I think you're 100 % right there. mean, it's... You've got you basically you've got a mentor at your fingertips nowadays at anything you get stuck on. It's like it will have a decent answer for you just at your fingertips. So there's definitely there's definitely that and I think also that just means that every business really should just be getting better and better because of AI and because you're able to improve it constantly much more than what we could in the past. Katie Harvey: Yeah. And it's like things like I've started a podcast, I've got the blog going. I'm in the process of building an app and none of that would have been possible. And I wouldn't have had those ideas without consulting with my, new friend, Dave on Claude. And it's all that stuff, but also I think equally it's still so important to have the networks. Like you said, you spoke to a mentor about this hiring process and that just gave you the one golden nugget you needed to actually make it successful. Pat Harper: you Katie Harvey: I think that's another key point is I know a lot of people that getting wrapped up in the AI stuff and actually they spend hours on it and it looks amazing but actually it's not very practical in use so it's about like using those ideas and bringing it to a table of mentors or a room of people of high performers and bouncing the ideas off because sometimes AI is a bit too ambitious with what you're gonna do. ⁓ Pat Harper: think you're spot on there. And what I've always found with AI is to use it to the best of its ability, you've got to know what questions to ask it and then to know them, how do you get to learn what their questions are? Well, I think one of the best ways, as you mentioned, is to surround yourself with other people who maybe further ahead of you or doing similar things to you. By just doing that, you will... things will trigger your mind going, oh, I wonder why that's like that or I why that's, and all of a sudden you've got a bunch of questions that you can fire to AI and so I think they do work in tandem, you're right, AI alone is not as good as AI plus a really good network. Katie Harvey: 100 % and I think AI does have a habit of telling you what you want to hear. So it's always good to then feed back to the network and they will tell you the truth. Like I know that we're both in a network where if we did say an idea that actually didn't really have legs, they would tell us honestly. Like I remember ⁓ my first year on mastermind with property entrepreneur and I brought an idea to the table and my mentor Josh just went, ⁓ shit. And I was like, fair enough. But I needed to hear that because otherwise I would have gone ahead of it and probably been struggling for ages because you there's also a bit of an ego thing isn't there if you've got an idea you really want it to work so you'll keep pushing until it's like right at failure point. Pat Harper: Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, and yeah, as you say, I will just keep feeding you new ideas about a specific thing you're asking about and maybe kind of like feeding that but yeah, getting someone just to tell you bluntly, that's priceless. Katie Harvey: Definitely. ⁓ So obviously other than exercise, you're doing your exercise in the morning and it sounds like you've got a really good routine with your kids and you'll live in a life that you've designed but what is different now? What are you actually protecting more of excluding those things that you weren't protecting five years ago when you were in corporate? Pat Harper: Well, I wasn't doing my exercise. I wasn't doing my exercise. And I feel like, ⁓ weirdly, it's like, although I've got more responsibility, probably now than what I've ever had, I've also got more flexibility with my calendar. So I'm able to, know, plan an exercise and things like that as part of my day. And the other things that really helped me. Obviously, eating healthily, that's like, that's just like a must. As soon as I start binging on anything, that just destroys me, destroys my productivity. I started doing, so just eat sugar like once a week now. So I had a bit of a sugar problem, there's no doubt about that. I'll admit it. So I've just said, okay, we'll just have it once a week. And I do make the most out of it, don't get me wrong, but then at least it's just on a Saturday, once a week, done. And then I have a great time and then that's it then until next Saturday. just little rules like that, which I think for me, in a way, really help, yeah. Katie Harvey: Yeah, I love that as well. Sugar is one of the most dangerous drugs on the planet and people don't see it as a drug because it's so widely accepted and it's in almost everything. But the second that you take it away, you realize how much of an impact it has. It's similar to caffeine. I think caffeine and sugar work quite hand in hand and people don't realize the effects of having them in huge amounts when you're not meant to have that much. Pat Harper: Plus if you think about all the foods which sugar is in, they're all the foods that you're not meant to be having anyway, aren't they? that's when they just pile the sugar in, don't they? But yeah, we've just had Easter and I'm lucky enough that my kids are still too young to remember how many Easter eggs they actually got. So that's used to my advantage, Katie Harvey: Yeah. And it's really difficult. how many of them disappeared? Pat Harper: I wouldn't like to openly admit that, but definitely more than one or two. Katie Harvey: Well as long as it was on a Saturday it's fair game right? I love that. I find that at like Christmas and Easter we still get Easter eggs because I haven't got any kids like the rule in our family is once you have kids those kids get all the presents and stuff and the next generation they don't so because I don't have kids I still get all the Easter eggs but I'm not like a massive fan of all the chocolate like I have one and then I'm kind of like I don't know what to do with the rest I don't really want them it's the same at Christmas like Pat Harper: That's what I was thinking. Katie Harvey: The default gift that you get as an adult is like a Toblerone. We have five Toblerones for Christmas and we've still got two in the end of the bed. And we'd like, we don't know what to do with them. We're fed up with Toblerone. And it's like the default present for adults is chocolate. Pat Harper: Yeah, tall brooms, great gift. But yeah, as you say, they are chunky bits of chocolate and they're massive as well, aren't they? ⁓ But also very tasty. Katie Harvey: Hahaha! Yeah. Maybe I'll send some your way for a Saturday. Pat Harper: Saturday treats, yeah, Saturday treats for me. Yeah, always welcome. Katie Harvey: Yeah so one final question for today is you've got a lovely routine and when the kids are asleep you obviously must have some downtime afterwards so when all that noise stops with the business when the noise stops after putting the kids to bed and the phone's off and you've got time with your wife what does the calm actually feel like for you what is what is that evening like? Pat Harper: Yeah, yeah, not actually that much time. It's a lot of the time, but you know, we could have 45 minutes an hour towards the end of the day. Might have a chat, might watch something on the TV or series or something, but yeah, I mean, that downtime is really important. And what I find with the business is if I'm going through like a phase where stuff just needs to get done, then that. Fortunately that window towards the end of the day gets eaten up and that's not a good thing because then it has a knock on effect for my sleep because then I haven't got that wind down time and then all of a sudden I'm really finding it hard to get to sleep because my brain's still firing like trying to solve problems as much as I try to a technique to calm that down. I did actually read Katie Harvey: Yeah. Pat Harper: There's a book by Ray Crocker, have read that one? About how he built McDonald's basically. Katie Harvey: What's it called? Okay Pat Harper: And he talks about when he got into bed and how he managed stress, he said it was never an issue for him to sleep. And the technique he used was he imagined a blackboard in his head, you where you put chalk on them, write on it. And he imagined himself rubbing all the text out and then he's got a blank blackboard. Katie Harvey: I know. Pat Harper: and then that just tells him to go to sleep. Because obviously all the text on the blackboard represents all the things going on in his mind. So try that sometimes, sometimes effective, sometimes doesn't work at all. Katie Harvey: Yeah, I like that. I do a similar thing. that essentially is like the key component to being able to empty your mind before sleep is closing the loop. So a lot of people go to bed with open loops, which is unfinished stuff, things that they need to do tomorrow, things that they just can't stop thinking about. So if you close the loop, essentially, it's like writing down the next step of that task or writing down the stuff that's in your head that you know you need to do tomorrow. But if you don't write it down, you might forget. And that closes the loop and that allows you to then relax and go to sleep. And also like some breath work is also really helpful. I tend to just do, like I close the loop so at the end of my work day I write everything down that I've done or need to finish off and then I do some breath work in bed if I'm struggling to sleep. But because I go to bed at the same time it is a little bit easier. But there are nights where you are more wired than usual and I find just picking up a book. and reading it I tend to not actually remember much of what I've read but that seems to calm my system down, Pat Harper: Nice, you know, that's a nice technique. And I do have, as much my wife hates it, I have a notepad at the side of my back head to try and get things out of my head, as you call it, closing the loop. But then the lights going on and the wife's like, what the hell is going on? She's trying to sleep and I'm trying to close the loop. So. ⁓ So, but yeah, that's a nice idea, having the book available as well, to, basically, it takes your mind completely off it then, doesn't it? Katie Harvey: Thank you. Yeah and if it's like turning the light on is an issue then maybe just get like a little book light. So I've got one that sits on top of the page so it doesn't, don't have to turn any main lights on and I find that's really good for if I need to journal in the middle of the night or if I wake up at three o'clock in the morning thinking of something because the second that you turn on the lights you're going to spark your circadian rhythm to kick in because it's seeing light, it thinks that you're meant to be awake. Pat Harper: Yeah, good point. Katie Harvey: and our biology hasn't quite understood superficial art yet. Pat Harper: point yeah and yeah you want it as dark as possible don't you? Katie Harvey: Definitely. And any final sentiments to leave for the listeners today? Pat Harper: and Well, I would just say that if you are struggling with anything we've discussed today, for example, you're in a career or you've got a boss that you hate, then just remember that there is always something else out there. Don't just feel trapped and pick up anything you're a book on anything you're interested in, get a bit educated on it. And like I say, you never know where it might lead you. Katie Harvey: Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective. How can people reach out if they want to get in touch? Pat Harper: So you can follow me on social media, on pretty much all the platforms. My username is at Pat J. Harper. Or you can go on my website, is totalpropertygroup.co.uk. Katie Harvey: Amazing, so hopefully you'll get some interest and I think that you may potentially get a few listeners that wanna invest and don't have that time. So conversations like this exist to completely normalize experiences that many people go through quietly as life and responsibility grow. If anything in this episode landed, I'd love for you to do one of two things. Take the success hangover score card at breatheblueprint.com. It takes a couple of minutes and it will show you exactly where your performance is costing you. or grab a copy of my book, The Success Hangover, the Amazon UK number one bestseller, And if you found this useful, leave a review, share it with someone who needs to hear it. That is how we grow this. I will see you next week.