Latest / The High-Performing Technical Leader / Ep. 28 How To Build A Predictable SDR Engine Without Burning Out AEs with Gabe Lullo

Transcript

Ep. 28 How To Build A Predictable SDR Engine Without Burning Out AEs with Gabe Lullo · The High-Performing Technical Leader

• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, hello everybody.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm super excited today.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: I have Gabe here with me, uh, Gabe Lulo, who is the founder of AlleyWhoops.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we're gonna dive deep into some sales development and sales building and frameworks and structures.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm actually really excited because I feel like there's been a lot of change in the industry lately about this specific topic.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, Gabe, I'm very happy to have you and kind of like, you know, go deep into it.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, I'm sure we'll touch a little bit on AI and how AI is replacing everything at this point.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, thank you for coming and joining me.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks so much for having me on the show.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Firstly, I'm a huge fan of yours and everything that you speak on.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um for the guests out there, we just recorded you on our show.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we don't do it live, so we're really happy to have you on as a guest.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I I can't wait to be on your show as well.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: So this has been super fun getting to know you.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, thank you, by the way, for having me on yours as well.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to see that come out as well.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, before we dive into all the details, I'd love if you can just tell our audience a little bit about how where you started, you know, how did you even end up founding and being CEO of the company right now?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Just a little bit of your journey.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I've realized that I can actually make money for talking when I was 11 years old.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was uh selling uh t-shirts for a local fundraiser for my school, and I beat every student in my school.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, okay, making money and talking is amazing because I grew up in a very blue-collar town where you know all my family members, my old uncles and cousins all had to lift heavy things and sweat to make money.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I just didn't want to do that.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: So uh sales was kind of natural for me at that point.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then I really honed in my skills after school and after college, and I started a business in recruiting and training sales reps, and then that's that has grown.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, obviously with Alioop, we do uh sales development as a service, so essentially appointment setting for B2B brands, and so it's been a natural progression, been been in the business for a very long time, hence the gray hair.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, it's been it's been quite the journey to do this.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's funny.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, definitely feel you on the gray hair.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh, obviously I'm I'm not there yet, but I I feel it coming the more I'm in this industry.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how was there like a specific moment where you were like, I I see this gap in the market and I want to either do it better or you know, make it better that had you start, you know, in the in the service side of like the SDR side.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I wish it was like a lightning bolt that hit me and said, Oh my God, what a great idea.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, just came up with it.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: But in reality, like most businesses, they kind of evolve and morph into something you didn't realize was actually important and solve the problem.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we were doing sales training for closers, uh, you know, and really focusing on the full cycle sales and you know, being a good closer.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then software really was the first industry to really grasp this BDR-SDR mentality.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there was always telemarketing, there was always like transactional appointment setting, but there was never really an actual function of just setting meetings versus closing.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: It usually just sat on the desk uh where a sales rep did both prospecting and presenting, right?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: So when we were approached by a client of ours that wanted actually appointment setting versus closing because they already had a great group of closers, we saw that that could be something we can do and we started doing it.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then we're like, oh my God, other companies want it too.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: And this is actually something that really is a problem right now, and no one's focusing on that specific part of the sales journey.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how we double down on it for sure.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure you've seen so much since you've started from all different aspects, all different types of businesses.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure also a lot of people come to you before they have any sales or sales infrastructure at all.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: What does that conversation look like typically?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are you guys helping them build an infrastructure?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Are you helping them, obviously, you know, within um within the business?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Or how do you guys help them build when they realize that's actually missing for them?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's interesting because in this space in industry, many people kind of are confused.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you mean you can outsource sales development?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you look at other parts of the industry, right?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Staffing, for instance, your space, right?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: You look at marketing or website development or HR or finance, all of those departments are very much accepted to be outsourced.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you start a business, you usually don't have the bandwidth or capacity to have an entire website development, you know, team to build your website.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Usually you outsource that.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the other parts, as I mentioned.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: So when you look at sales development as an outsourcing function, it's still relatively new compared to other departments that you can outsource.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, you're right.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Companies come to us and say, hey, we'd rather buy versus build, but building ourselves is something we would like to do in the future.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so we help with that.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: So what's unique about what we do is you can start with us, kind of like a rent-to-own scenario, and then you can bring it in-house, and we'll help facilitate everything they need to bring that in-house and own it one day.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we're really excited about is not a short, punchy contract, but a long-term partnership where we can see this company turn this into their own uh department.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing that you also said about sales development in general, which really stuck with me, was that you said it's not just part of sales and it's not just part of marketing.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Can you unpack that a little bit and why do most leaders get that part wrong?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you know anything about sales and marketing, usually there are they're at odds at almost all parts of their time together, right?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I feel like I'm a divorce marriage counselor, right?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, you got marketing throwing spears over the fence, blaming sales, they can't close their leads.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then you got sales throwing spears over the fence, saying marketing sends me bad leads.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's always been that.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so sales development is that wedge that sits between the two, and really, like I said, is that mediator.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're qualifying, warming, nurturing, enhancing, and teeing up those leads that marketing is doing so hard to find and curate.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, we're we're giving the sales team focus, and that's the big thing is you want your sales reps focused.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want them spending 80% of their day prospecting.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: You want to have them present 100% of their day closing and negotiating contracts.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we come in and say, hey, listen, we can work with both departments and be that middleman between that process.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like the Henry Ford approach, right?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's the assembly line of sales and it gives you that opportunity where you know it's a step-by-step equation versus just uh some sort of theory that or someone or someone's trying to wing it.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, it's very interesting you say that because I've also been of the same opinion in the sense that I feel like an actual closer, like salesperson, like an account executive, is a different skill set from being an SDR or a BDR.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: And as an account executive, I feel like you want to just close.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to necessarily chase, like you can just most startups make it as part of their job so they do it.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: But SDRs, I feel like, are more like or the BDRs are more like in a way a piranha, like they love the chase, they love to get in front of people and get the right person, but they don't really care about closing.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: They just want to pass it on to somebody more qualified and go back and chase again.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Do you kind of see that similar in your side?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: And do you think that leaders do that wrong when they combine the AE with like, you know, doing the outreach as well?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I look at it like the pitcher and catcher in baseball, right?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: You're not you're not gonna throw the ball and then run on the other side and then try to catch it yourself.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's impossible.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: It really takes two to tango in this sales process, right?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: And but to your point, it's absolutely correct.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's closers out there that just are hunters.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: They're they love the chase, they love the closing, they love the big deal, they love the risk.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, sales is hard, right?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's a huge risk, uh, there's a long sales cycle.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you may be eating, you know, ramen noodles one day and lobster the next.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, some people are not wired that way.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, sales development, much more uh predictable, much more uh transactional and more consistent.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And some people are needing that in their lives.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and also, though, to think about it's it's that junior team, too, that you can really parlay into a career path.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, many closers start as a uh as SDRs and graduate into that closing role, but many SDRs have no interest in ever being a closer because they know all of those risks that are involved with it.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think another big thing to think about is a lot of companies try to hire a sales rep, but it's a catch 22.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure you'll deal with this all the time.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: They really want experienced people, but it's hard to find them, or usually they don't want to leave their company because they're doing well.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then you also don't want to put a junior salesperson with no experience in a closing role because now you're taking two years or one year to ramp them up.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that SDR transition to AE career path is also something to mention because it really gives you some time to spread your wings before you get into that role.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's fair.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I totally agree on that.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, with that being said, when you're, you know, maybe you or the team talking to a founder or VP who's scaling their first SDR team or trying to implement the frameworks to do that.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Is there any mistakes that you really see that they make early on that cost them the most?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's really putting the cart before the horse, right?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: They hire these reps, they find some good people, maybe they are lucky enough to do that, but then they have no support.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Their lists are not managed correctly or sourced correctly.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have a dialer that's really best in class.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Their CRM is just you know a hodgepodge of a mess.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then these great reps come in and they're like, what am I working with?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm working with like archaic tools and and they leave.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then on, or on the flip side, you spend all this time on RevOps and sales enablement, but you don't spend great time on finding good people.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a balance.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's people and process and technology.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's all three of those things have to work at a hundred percent in order for it to work at all.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: And if you dip on one of those three pillars, you're gonna have some troubles and you're gonna trip a little bit.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the process is important, the technology is important, and then the people is important.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of the technology side, how much do you feel like is that complexity versus like, or I guess what I'm trying to ask is do you feel like that's a bigger problem for founders, or is it the people and the processes?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think right now, because of AI, the technology has driven to the top of the priority list.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing that is most confusing, convoluted, and kind of, you know, everyone's trying to figure it out, right?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's testing new stuff.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's trying to figure out what the best tech is because of the advent of AI.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And we've seen this happen before.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, 10 years ago in marketing automation and Pardot, you know what I mean, and Marketo, these companies came out and they actually fired hundreds of thousands of sales reps because they thought email is just going to be sends and everyone's gonna sign up for your thing.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so what happened was is you know, that was a massive shift and shakeup.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: But what they found out is that people actually need to be involved in this process too.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: So now sales uh and marketing and email automation all work synergistically today.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that same shakeup is happening right now with AI, and some people are spending so much time on it that I think it's deprioritizing what's also very important, like you mentioned, which is that people side of it.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And speaking of that, if you can share it, like what would be like if I'm a leader of a founder and I want to start doing or building my SDR function, what would be like your top three things that I would ideally need to have in place before I even go hire somebody or an agency as well?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I think the ICP and your and your product market fit needs to be figured out and known.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Now, again, it takes you know two things at once to happen.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes you don't know that unless you start having conversations.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's so important is you have to center your outreach around the phone.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I know in 2026 it sounds weird to say the phone is the priority uh when everyone's texting and messaging and you know on social.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, you know, live conversations is what's going to tell you what the marketplace is saying.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's going to tell you, do you have the right people you're reaching out to?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to tell you, do you have the right product product market fit?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to tell you what your competitors are doing or is your if your pricing's out of whack.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: So live conversations are going to give you so much data points and you need tools to figure out those live conversations and understand those data points.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, if you just pretend to, you know, do outbound by hitting send on an email and blast the market, it is going to backfire in a big, big way.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure since you're we're talking about like, you know, just marketing and send and automations and AI, I'm sure you have your opinion on all these companies that say, you know, replace your SDR team with AI.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me your thoughts on that.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's funny.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Jasper at Artisan, which spent over$2 million on billboards saying stop hiring humans and hire Ava, their AI SDR.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think I just kind of plugged their company, just came out uh publicly and apologized and said, I was wrong.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna buy uh t-shirts for everybody.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it says, I love humans on it.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what also what his pitch is is AI does 10, 5, 7x, what humans can do.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the whole point.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I agree with him on that is that yeah, technology and people, of course, like like you know, we used to, you know, you know, drive cars that have just wood, no rubber on the tires, right?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: So your technology has changed.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I live in New York.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: We used to have toll booths where we had to like stop and pay people just to drive.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, now I have easy pass.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: So technology is amazing and it will help you advance.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: But the approach where we're just going to send emails to the world and and and our business is just going to naturally grow, you're missing a huge piece of the market by not actively and proactively going out and having what we're doing right now.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is a phone call, if you think about it, right?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's two humans having a live conversation.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's live, yes, it's on video, yes, we're having a face-to-face, but you know, that live, authentic communication is really where uh, you know, the magic lives.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think again, picking one side or the other is like that marketing and sales approach we talked about.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: You have to have a middle ground and do both at the same time.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny that you mentioned that because at the time when they came out with their billboards, I actually had to travel to San Francisco for work and they were just everywhere.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Every like mile, I felt like I was seeing a billboard that said stop hiring humans.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought it was funny back then because I'm like, there's no freaking way the technology is that far.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Can it replace some aspect of it, of course, you know, like we just talked about, but there's just no way you can survive right now without humans.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I and you tell me this too, but I feel like as human beings, now we're craving more interactions just because of the whole AI.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we've all gotten really good at kind of understanding now what's AI, you know, versus what's human approach.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I don't know.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do you guys feel like you've had more conversations because of that and being involved, or how has the market kind of been on your end?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's interesting that you say that we have gotten a lot of people say to us on the other line of a phone call, is this AI?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Before we start even the conversation.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: And we have trained our reps to make mistakes on purpose, to mention things that only humans could do, uh, to hyper-personalize.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying, hey, I saw you went to college, do you want to buy my software?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like you need more authentic than that.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: And also letting them know, hey, I'm not AI, right?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of rules and regulations are coming in where if you are using AI, you have to tell people.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so in our world, it's like, hey, just want to let you know, uh, Bob, uh, this is my name's Gabe, and I'm not AI, I'm a real person.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you got a minute for me to tell you why I'm calling, and I'm doing it that way.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it kind of cuts through the noise.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing we're seeing, and this just happened recently too, is a LinkedIn is catching on with all the AI slop that's happening.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's a new button on every single post that it says looks like AI slop, meaning, and it literally says that AI slop, which I think is pretty funny.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, yeah, they are now also saying, hey, we want to catch this so it doesn't water down or you know, create low credibility of what's actually authentic.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's very important.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's funny.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like uh AI has ruined M dashes in general, like people used to use them, you know, in proper sentences, but now because they're so overused.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: You want to know something funny?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: I did.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: This is a quick funny story.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a 13-year-old daughter, and I learned this from her, but I also saw, I think it was um, I forgot his name, he was talking about it on a podcast.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, that's a great idea.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: But she doesn't capitalize anything in her text messages.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So when my daughter texts me, no capitalization is turned on.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I did is I turned mine off.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: So when I'm messaging people on LinkedIn, it's all lowercase.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I have an English teacher, my mother's an English teacher, and she absolutely hates that I am doing this right now.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's like against every moral fiber in her being because it's against the English code of you know, not capitalizing.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, it's a little hack that shows, hey, you know, I'm a real person.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I'm not using M stamps, I'm not using perfect pronunciations, I'm not using commas in before before my hands.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm making mistakes on purpose so they know that I'm real.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's super funny, but also quite valuable.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's true, actually.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: I've been doing that too recently, or if I've made like a miss typo or something like that on a word, I've like gone back to fix and I'm like, well, maybe I should leave it so I know it's a real person.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's crazy, kind of and sad that we're in this part of our lives.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, making us dumber, I think that's what's actually happening sometimes, right?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so crazy.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um cool.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I wanted to ask before we go into like hiring and building teams, um, in the SDR side, is there anything right now that's working better than others in terms of openings that you can share with us?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: And outside of that, I feel like we always talk about touch points, like how many touches do we get, you know, before the person converts or whatever that looks like.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd love your thought process on that too, if you can share with us.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: So we track everything based on our conversion, which is a meeting booked, right?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: So our job is to, you know, run the first leg of the relay, and we care about our end goal, which is a meeting on the calendar with the right person at the right time.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's very important.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: So to get that, ironically, it the numbers have gone up dramatically.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, used to be seven touches before someone really does something, used to be 10.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now we're at like 18 touches within that outbound process across multiple channels, by the way, phone, email, LinkedIn, to get them to convert to a meeting.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: So there's definitely more work that has to be done and more creativity to make that work more effective.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but what we're noticing is DMs on LinkedIn and creating content like this is the name of the game, in addition to the other tools.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we prioritize phone, LinkedIn, and email in that order.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Email, I don't want to say anything is dead, but it's it's on life support.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, because there's AI tools on the other side filtering those emails that are being sent by AI.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you literally have AI talking to AI right now on email, and it's it's almost like impossible to penetrate to a real person.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: With that said, I'm really doubling down on voice notes and video notes on LinkedIn to again rehumanize the conversation so they know it's real, so they know they took actual time out of their day to make a video and send it.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so it makes it feel and see that this is a real person with a real uh offer and a real solution to a potential problem.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that cuts through the noise, and that's something we've been prioritizing for sure.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's cool to know.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, question on that.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Do you guys track what works better, like voice notes versus video?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: So voice notes are definitely seven times more likely to be responded to than a text-based note.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: The increase when it comes to video is not as much more of the response, but for the fastness of cutting through those uh multiple steps.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: It really personifies the person now.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: It could also backfire if you don't do a genuinely good video and it looks like crap, to be honest with you, and you're not taking your video approach like you and I have cool videos and lights and it, you know, we're being professional, then it could backfire.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not that much of a difference.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: So if you do voice or if you do video, it's really a preference of how comfortable you are on doing that.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you're not loving the idea of being on camera, then just don't do it.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: But definitely do voice notes.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's gonna cut through the noise.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's again like a phone call, it's like a voicemail, it's like a Uh it's like it's like a a catch between email and phone because it's not live, but it is your voice, so it is phone, similar, but it's also pre-scripted like an email, which is great.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: You can think about it and re-ed re-edit it 10 times before you send it.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's a great middle ground.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I like that you said that because I've heard actually a lot of different perspectives on video for LinkedIn.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I've heard people say, oh, you know, act like you're getting out of a car or, you know, walking around.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I get it because we're trying to be authentic, but I feel like there's a fine line between that and being unprofessional, because at the end of the day, you're talking business like you're not talking about their kids, or you know, it's not your close friend.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like there is a fine line between, you know, being too unprofessional to being somewhat authentic and professional at the same time.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean that kind of blends into content and my approach.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I've said this both multiple times is I'm an 80-20 kind of guy when it comes to my content.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll do 20% personal, 20% me, 20% my family.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like I posted something, uh, and then I'll do 80% business.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll talk about my newsletter or a strategy or a podcast or a promotion within my company.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Someone got promoted.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'll recognize them.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: So 80% work, 20% personal is how I approach my LinkedIn.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I and I like to approach it the same way in my DMs.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, it was funny.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: About a year and a half ago, uh, someone made fun of me on LinkedIn in the comments.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I posted about my daughter gradual or starting her first day at school, and I was so excited about this, and it was a big milestone, and she did so well.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, profiled my daughter about her schooling.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: And someone in the comments says, What does this have to do with sales?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just like, really?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, okay.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but what at the end of the day, you know, I got 11 million impressions on my LinkedIn over the last 90 days.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not complaining, but it's only because people just sometimes just don't get it.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but yeah, that's just my approach.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: It works well.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's um it'd be crazy to try and satisfy everybody that either you work with, you know, or just on the internet because it's impossible.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: I love haters, they're funny, they're fun.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we're at their rapid fire section.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: So these are questions for me.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: You can take your time answering them though.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what is one tool that you can't live without right now?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my video camera.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I buy a video camera for everyone in my company if they don't have one.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think have we're a fully remote company, uh, but we're not a camera optional company.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: So having that face-to-face interaction is super important when it comes to human dynamics, specifically with sales personalities.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a big important thing for us.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I'd be very surprised right now if anybody has like some sort of computer or PC without a camera.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but is there one in specific that you recommend?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm a Mac, we have a whole Mac uh lineup.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: So we all have Apple computers within the company.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we have an Apple contract, but there is a new camera that just came out uh by El Gato.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's called the Fourcare FaceTime Pro.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a 4K camera for like less than 200 bucks.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's plug and play, it's really high definition, and it's great for really great, you know, video production at a low price point.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: So those are those are ones that I would recommend if you want to really show up well on camera and not have to you know get a mirrorless, you know, a DSLR type camera.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, love that.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how about biggest growth lever for SaaS in 2026?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Doubling down right now when it comes to your sales development team.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's a resurgence.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: The dust has settled, you know, two years ago, three years ago when SaaS was getting pounded with you know money running out and investors were pulling their plug and and COVID's, you know what I mean?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: The repercussions of that.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: But now it's it's it's grow time, right?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean go time, I mean grow time, GR R O W, right?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: So the reality is is doubled down on sales again.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not doing that to be self-serving.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: The ones that are doing that are figuring it out and putting their products uh under the microscope when it comes to bringing it to the market and pivoting.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: So just because you think you have a great product doesn't mean you have a great product.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Let the marketplace tell you you have a great product and bring it to them first and then tweak and enhance.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good because I feel like it's not enough to just be doing marketing and sales when people come to you.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, sometimes you're very aware of products around you, but until somebody reaches out to you when you're like, oh yeah, actually I have been thinking about it, just haven't had the time, and then you're that push.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd have to agree on that.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: But what is one belief you have that most people would disagree with?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: One belief that I have that most people would disagree with.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this could be controversial.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm not a big fan of these auto dialers that are out there, and I've tried them, I've endorsed them, I've actually been part of some companies that have gone out, and I'm not gonna name names or I'll get into trouble.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the auto dialing is creating a lot of spam-likely phone calls.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's there's gaps between when they actually talk to you and when you pick up the phone.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that the the the world is trying to go into this, again, mass email approach to the phone, and I think it's backfiring on them dramatically.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of spending a ton of time on trying to hack the way of getting calls out, my recommendation is spend that time and energy on making sure the list that you're reaching out to is really, really good so you can have a more authentic conversation.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'd rather call a hundred great people and book 10 meetings and then call a 10,000 great people and book 10 meetings.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's just how I look at it.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, by the way, on the list aspect, do you have any sort of like advice on what companies can do to make sure the list is good or maybe any tips or tricks that you've learned throughout your years?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of data vendors out there, right?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: You got the big ones, you got the small ones, you got the competitors.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like Salesforce was many years ago, where if you bought Salesforce, you also needed a Salesforce administrator, right?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: So just because you bought data doesn't mean that that's just a cookie-cutter piece of list.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, many, many data vendors, even the best and the most expensive, are saying 20 to 30 percent of their data isn't right.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: So what I would invest in is either work with them directly, uh, work with us directly, or figure out how to bring people internally where you can actually hone in on that list and and and really peel back the onion on that.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you're making sure you're not wasting time and energy on people who are just not the right fit.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's fair and valid.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that at least right now, like yes, AI can help somewhat with that, but it's still you need that human touch to you know kind of finalize the list and make sure it's it's all there.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, there's definitely steps to it.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would love to shift your perspective a little bit on the hiring and team build team uh wow team building side.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm sure you're built bringing in talent from your own team or helping companies or coaching them on hiring.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: In your opinion and what you've seen so far, what does like a high performing SDR look like versus somebody that's just dialing?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you need desire, right?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, desire is the starting point of all achievement, is what Napoleon Hill says, right?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you have to have the right mental attitude, you have to have the right mindset, and all that comes back down to hunger, desire, and what we like to promote, which is grit.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if you have grit, I'm telling you, you got like 70% of what you need.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Everything else can be trained, in my opinion.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: But if you come with grit, you're you're you're winning already.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: You're already ahead of the curve.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: We have 4,200 applicants apply to our company every year.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: We hire 2% of them.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so the reality is that the biggest thing we look for is that day one.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't really care about your resume.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: If you can show me grit tenacity, uh that that's going to win big.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Now, are you are you a good communicator?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: Do you ask good questions?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Are are you someone who you know knows how to articulate and have you know great thought processes uh and respond quickly and effectively?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: That it all is just as important.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm telling you, if you have all that but have zero grit, it's like a Ferrari without an engine.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like it doesn't matter, right?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And on that end, and I feel like grit can apply to all different types of roles, not just on the SDR side, because I totally agree.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: But specifically in sales is even more important than outreach and all that good stuff.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is there any way that you test that throughout the interview process that you can share with us on like some things that kind of tell you, okay, I can see this person having it, let's move them on so we can keep testing them versus like that's a no?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, we have a filter that is so simple and so you know easy to create.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it is it really it sounds so small, but it's so big.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, in our first step of the interview process, we partnered up with a company called Wedge.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: They're a great brand.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: I will endorse them because uh we've used them for a long time.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: They're also a client of ours.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: So we've done engagements with them, and so we were big fans of what they do, and I'm sure there's a lot of others out there, but what they essentially provide is a video interview process.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: So the first time someone applies for a company, they're gonna be asked to complete a one-way video cover letter where they're asked six very specific questions that all revolve around sales development and their experience or lack thereof.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very easy to do.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, literally, it takes 10 minutes to do it.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: But here's what's funny 30% of our applicants don't even do it.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that right there shows just a little bit of grit on how serious they are about the role.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we already weed out, and that's all I mean, think about the man hours, right?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: The 30% of 4,200 people that we don't have to actually ever talk to because they're not willing to do a video cover letter.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's so important.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it really shows really, again, someone's just desire in a very small way on whether or not they want to truly pursue this career.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then on the flip side, it gives us great understanding of do they have capabilities to communicate effectively if ever put into live conversations, right?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's fair, very valid.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: And once you've hired them, Gabe, is there like a difference between ramping up like SDRs and ramping up a sales executive, like account executive?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you see leaders usually stumble in and do it wrong?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, if you're hiring someone brand new to the role, which we don't do, I mean, we we have to have some sort of you know background, whether it's bartending, whether it's customer service, whether it's working at the gab in the mall.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like they have to have shown some sort of uh experience to work here.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there's other companies that hire people right out of college.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: We did used to do that, we just don't do it anymore.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're too big to do that.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, um, I think that the ramp up in the role of sales development is really a 90-day ramp up.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in in the first 30 days, you're gonna know whether or not you had someone good and they're gonna know whether or not they want to continually do this.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: In the next 60 days, you're gonna see if this training is working, and then um the final following 30 days, excuse me, 90 days in total, that's really gonna see if they can actually execute.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I think ramping an SDR up is a 90-day process if they're coming to the table with very little experience.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the AE side of it, that's more product knowledge in much more advanced closing techniques.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you're talking several months that it's going to take to ramp up an AE if they're relatively new to the space.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's very fair.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I wanted to ask on that perspective.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, one thing that we always talk about, I mean, on the agency side, right?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because obviously I'm on the hiring side.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't necessarily work as a inside the company, but I always feel like when a company treats you as a partner, the relationship is like so much better.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that companies do when they work with you that maybe do it wrong or kind of leads, I don't know, to the wrong relationship, or how do you guys avoid the wrong relationship, you know, in terms like when you're onboarding a client in the beginning?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it's before the onboarding process, it's it's it's like my first question in the sales process.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: I would literally say, okay, CEO, how long do you want to work with us?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I look at them.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I want to know what their exit strategy is.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, we can work with whatever that looks like potentially, right?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: We just need to know where we stand because we know we're not, we're not, you know, employees, we're a vendor, we're a partner, we're a consultant, we're an advisor.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: We know our role.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: We're not going to be here forever.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: But what does this look like?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: What does good look like?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: Are you here for six months because you have capacity problems?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or are you here for six years because you don't want to manage this and you have zero interest in sales?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're a product guy and you want to focus on software development and you want to outsource this to a professional group like us for a long period of time.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not judging what they're going to say, but I am needing to know this so we can put a true partnership together that works for them.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the first question, really, out of the gates before uh you know you start anything.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really good.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I actually forgot to ask you one question on the hiring side, uh, which I think is really important.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um when it comes to hiring, how are you setting up your interview processes?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Is it like anything in specific that you've learned throughout the years that is like, okay, this is like my sweet spot?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, our interview process is more of an on the job type of process.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: Again, we need to really jump in the deep end together.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, keep in mind, we're a lifeguard, we're professional swimmers, we're not gonna let you drown.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: We're here to support you.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're not like jump in the deep end and like we're gonna go to the bar and help you swim.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're gonna hang out and spend time watching and training.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: But in the first, you know, 30, 60, 90 days, we're really there with you every step of the way after you're hired.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: But before you're hired, we go through the video interview process, then we do a live real interview, yeah, and then we do a cold call uh mock scenario.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we will literally give them, and again, it's like it's it's like tryouts for a sports team.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna see how well they throw the ball, we're gonna see how well they catch, we're gonna see how well they hit, right?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna see them in action and we do that through mock cold calls, objection handling.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: We actually give them a training guide, scripts, objection handling guides, and we see how well they take that and seriously.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it really, I'm a big comedy guy.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: I love Saturday Live.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the no no different than you know, trying out for Saturday Night Live and throwing some jokes, you know, at Lauren Michaels and the staff without an audience to see if they're funny enough to be on the show.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we do, and that's really why, again, we feel that the people who do end up getting hired are really passionate about working here because they knew what it took to get there.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: And people are like, Dave, you're crazy.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's an entry-level sales role.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you go through so many hoops to get someone hired?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the reality is this is all that we do, this is our product, right?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Our product is full quality.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, you know, are you gonna you have to?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think Apple treats the iPhone like an entry-level phone?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, they treat it like it's their flagship product.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why we do it.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Gabe, you must have made a hiring mistake here and there.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: Did it teach you anything?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: And what was that?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: Not only did we make some hiring mistakes, we also kept some people we shouldn't.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I like to say this story is, you know, I fired my top producer, and it was, you know, I fired him three months too late.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason why is sometimes you realize, you know, uh man, you're making money, they're making money, they're making the company money.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's keep them, they're the best in the world.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're a jerk, if you're a bad culture fit, if you're not helping other people become successful, if you're stealing inbound leads and changing the name to yours versus other people's in the CRM, like you're showing up late every day and you think you own the place, like no one should environment have an environment like that.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we've had we've kept people too long, uh, and we've hired people that maybe we shouldn't, but sometimes it is a a gamble.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I always call hiring, it's an educated guess at the end of the day.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't know what you don't know sometimes.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and sometimes, you know, you're completely tricked and fooled, and and you when you find out it hurts and it sucks, but you know, you you find someone else who hopefully uh doesn't do that to you.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, I agree.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like that's the gray hair I got is the hiring of it.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was just gonna say it's it's kind of like dating, like you have to, you know, you you have to keep on doing it and doing it to really know a person really well, and then hopefully, you know, get married at that point.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, no, I that's funny that you said that.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I hear you.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's typically one of the biggest pain points for businesses in general is hiring, which is because like people are unpredictable.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's not AI, you can't predict it, you know, you can't know exactly what it's gonna tell you.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I get it.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, with that being said, I mean, I it's kind of crazy everything went by so fast.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that you'd want to like kind of leave our audience with at the end of this?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to do this by yourself.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a founder and CEO and you want great people, obviously reach out to you, right?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: You're an amazing recruiter and and and ask for help.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: If you're looking to do this and bring people inside yourself, do it with a professional recruiter.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: If you want appointment setters and you don't want to have the gray hair of managing uh, you know, people all day out every day, then you know look at something like that we do.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're brand new, you know, you you built a product, you have an offering, it's really your job to focus on that and let the professionals focus on all the other things.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean the same way with finance or building a website, right?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: Or HR, you can outsource these things and really build a company with very little employees and and grow the business and without as much exposure and risk.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you know you have a home run, then you could start bringing all of those things in inside.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, if you're working with a long-term professional like yourself or like me, you have the ability to do that the right way.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, you know it as a business owner too, but there's so many things that we have our hands on when you're growing a company that it's impossible for you to be an expert in everything.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: So exactly.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, cool.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Gabe, how can people find you?
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Where can they reach out to you if they want to connect with you?
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, two places.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: LinkedIn is my home for all things social.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I post two, three times a day, kind of crazy about that.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh producing a lot of content.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: We like we give a pretty much everything we do for free out to the market if you are crazy enough to do it yourself.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: But if you want us to do it for you, we're there.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: Also, LinkedIn's a great free resource.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: I have a newsletter, I also have a podcast.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: If you want company insights, company info, who we are, even our pricing, we're very transparent.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: Go to our website, aliop.io.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll put all of these in the show notes as well to make it easier for everybody.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but thank you again uh for coming on.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was a great conversation.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think there was a lot of value.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope that people, if they watched it live, to go back and take notes and or turn the note taker on, I guess, at this point and make sure to start implementing.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but thank you, Gabe, for coming and sharing all your value.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Arby, thank you so much.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: You're the best.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: We appreciate you.