Latest / Recruiting Evolution / Industry Spotlight | Building Trust and Reputation in a Transaction-Driven Recruiting World with Elizabeth Rosenberg, Founder - The Good Advice Company

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Industry Spotlight | Building Trust and Reputation in a Transaction-Driven Recruiting World with Elizabeth Rosenberg, Founder - The Good Advice Company · Recruiting Evolution

• Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:00:00]: But there are so many topics that I think people are now using LinkedIn as if it is like capitalist Twitter. And you really do need to think about like, is this what I want my brand to be? The thing that I tell every client and I will scream from the rooftops is just because you're a thought leader does not mean we need your thoughts on everything. Kortney Harmon [00:00:21]: Hi, I'm Kortney Harmon, director of Industry relations at Crelate. This is the Industry Spotlight, a series of the Full desk experience, a Crelate original podcast. In this series, we will talk with top leaders and influencers who are shaping the talent industry, shining a light on popular trends, the latest news and the stories that laid the groundwork for their success. Welcome back to another episode of the Full Desk Experience. Industry Spotlight. Kortney Harmon [00:00:53]: Welcome back to another episode of the Full Desk Experience where we really talk about systems, tech and really people driving hiring in a modern world with the talent landscape. So this quarter, as I mentioned before, we're really focused on the most important and often most underestimated forces in our world of staffing and recruiting. And it's about relationships. This is an industry built on trust, influence, long term reputation. Relationships aren't just a soft skill, they're your competitive advantage. So today I'm so excited to bring you, Elizabeth. I had the privilege of being on a panel and at an AESC conference out in San Francisco in October and I am so excited, Elizabeth, to bring you on. From talking to her, she really talks to executive advisors building personal brand and works with leaders on how they show up and communicate and build meaningful relationships. Kortney Harmon [00:01:47]: So that's why I was most excited to bring her on today. So, Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining me today on our podcast and the expertise that you bring. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:01:56]: Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here and the two of us could talk for hours on end about everything. So I'm excited to be able to formalize this as well. Kortney Harmon [00:02:05]: We will ask the questions and we may not get to all of them, but that's okay. Probably tell our audience. Obviously I didn't do a great job. Of all the wonderful things you do and a little bit more about the Good Advice Company. So tell us a little bit about that whole process between you and your company. Yeah. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:02:19]: So my name is Elizabeth Rosenberg and I'm the founder of the Good Advice Company. I specialize in high level strategic thinking when it comes to communications and marketing. I have worked in corporate communications for over 20 years and moved into the PR side of advertising about 15 years ago. So now I quit my job on March 2nd of 2020, I've experienced severe corporate burnout. All of the things that we have all experienced that nobody really talks about about, I loudly talk about now and then. I launched the Good Advice company in September of 2020. So now I really work with a lot of executives on their personal branding. Everything that I advise and try, I've done myself. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:03:04]: I use myself as a case study for everything. And there's such a interesting journey that the I think the word personal branding has been on since people started talking about it. And now what that actually means in 2026 is wild. So I'm very excited to talk about it and how that really relates to our relationships, especially how we can make them more authentic in connection. Kortney Harmon [00:03:28]: I love it because let's face it, I mean, this is every industry, but staffing and recruiting is really fundamentally a relationship business. Yes. Yet this is really one of the most transactional industries. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:03:40]: So I know that wild. It's crazy to think about that. Right? Kortney Harmon [00:03:44]: Is it's definitely both sides of the coin. So I guess let's kick off by saying from your perspective, what separates firms or companies or people that build lasting relationships from those that are consistently starting over? Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:03:58]: I mean, the reality is that recruiters who are constantly staying in touch with people are going to know how those individuals are evolving as well. And as businesses are changing. Right. Like the jobs that we had 10 years ago are not the jobs that we're being hired for now and not the jobs that we're recruiting for now. So we need to know how everyone's hard skills are evolving, but also how everyone's soft skills are evolving. And now soft skills are such an important part of the recruiting process and everyone forgets it. It's like, yes, your resume can have here all the things that you technically can do, but if you are not culture, and I hate to say culture fit, because I actually don't think that is a really great thing anymore. But I think if you're not somebody who can show up with any managerial expertise with any really like, people skills, that's highly gonna affect how your emotional intelligence is going to relate in a job as well. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:04:54]: And that is now 50% of our job. Everyone is so stressed out and just the world is so much right now you are coming to work as a therapist all of the time. And we forget that like not everybody is meant to be a therapist nor wants to, but there is so much of the people part that people forget in the job market as well. Kortney Harmon [00:05:15]: And a lot of times we get so caught up in the dollars and cents of our jobs that we forget that the human is the collateral that we're selling and buying. And that sounds very ominous when you say it like that. I don't mean it in a bad way, but, like, in recruiting, like, the people are your. Are what you're selling. So we can't get lost in that. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:05:35]: And you have to spend a lot of time with those people. A lot. Kortney Harmon [00:05:39]: Yeah. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:05:40]: So, you know, you want to make sure that you are putting somebody in a position where they will succeed. Kortney Harmon [00:05:44]: Absolutely. I love you. We'll table that. But the whole concept of cultural fit, I love that. But we probably could talk about that, a whole podcast itself, so. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:05:53]: For sure. Yeah. Kortney Harmon [00:05:55]: You mentioned even before, like, well, first off, you started a company in a pandemic. Congratulations. You went through all of the ups and downs yourself. And honestly, recruiters often are operating in a moment of high emotions. Whether it's job loss, they're trying to manage someone through that, whether it's a career change, whether you're delivering under pressure and executive level, what actually builds trust in these moments, and I think, more importantly, what unintentionally damages it? Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:06:24]: I mean, it's a great question. I am in my mid-40s, and I think a lot of people in their executive path, that's where they're at. And I think that we Forget that, like, 2008 was rough, and then we did it again in 2020. And I say that because my personal resume had, like, I was at a job for, like, 10 months, and then I was at another job for a year. And at that time, nobody did that. Right. It's like, you were in your job for, like, five years, and if you weren't in that job for that amount of time, you were bad at your job and. Or you were a problem, and people were trying to find ways to spin that. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:07:00]: I was so honest where I was like, I was not a fit for this job, and this job was a nightmare, and I didn't want to be in this job. I was laid off from one job, and I was fired from another. I'm so honest about that now. And I think the more that we can actually lean into why we were not a fit for something makes us more relatable as to why we should be a fit for something else. You know, the problems that you ran into that you're not going to hopefully repeat. So I think that that makes a huge difference as to less spinning and less. This is what I think the recruiter wants to hear about. My position and my experience in a place and more like, what was that actually really like? And what did I learn from that experience and what am I taking into my next role? And I think as recruiters, we need to not be looking at. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:07:51]: Sorry, I'm saying this as if I'm a recruiter. Kortney Harmon [00:07:53]: Clearly I'm not. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:07:54]: But I think as recruiters, we need to not look at a resume and be like, oh, my God, there's a gap here. There's also a lot of gaps in job experience from people who had children, from people who were caretaking family members and were friends. Like, there are things that pop up. And I have to say, as somebody who is just a natural caregiver and caretaker, that job prepares you for so much other stuff in life. So I think we don't put enough onus on also life experience that is allowing us to grow those operational and emotional intelligence skills and those soft skills that we actually need to be better managers. Kortney Harmon [00:08:35]: Absolutely. Those are transferable skills that we often overlook. I mean, when we think about building our brand. Let's think about it from like a leader's perspective, like a staffing leader. We obviously want clients to do business with us. You, you say from the candidate's perspective. I get like, absolutely. Be honest. Kortney Harmon [00:08:54]: The manager's perspective. Be honest. But could that be detrimental to a client if we're trying to say all the things that we think about the industry? Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:09:02]: Well, yes. I don't think that that's what we should be doing. So as a PR person, I'm going to tell you straight up, like, no, unless that's your brand. Right. I am so unapologetically bold and brave in the things that I say, but I always say them with a strategic lens. There was a massive layoff that happened between the IPG and Omnicom merger. And I personally thought that the way that the PR and the internal and external comms was handled was terrible. I wrote an op ed about it. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:09:32]: I don't have a problem solving saying that kind of stuff. It is what it is. I also know a bunch of people there, so I wasn't scared that that was going to affect my future work. Right. But there are so many topics that I think people are now using LinkedIn as if it is like capitalist Twitter. And you really do need to think about, like, is this what I want my brand to be? The thing that I tell every client, and I will scream from the rooftops is, just because you're a thought leader does not mean we need your thoughts on everything. Really Pick three things, three pillars that are really important to you. And I always say, like hard skill, soft skill, passion project, they can be pretty broad. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:10:13]: Lean into those things and kind of what you want to focus on. And don't be scared that just because somebody else is talking about it, that doesn't mean that you can't. Your point of view is interesting and valid. And also I think people get nervous because they're like, well, when I'm talking about things, I'm just reiterating the same thing over and over again. Have an eye of what's going on in culture and connect that as well. But if you're not going to put it in a slack and you're not going to put it in an email and you're not scared that that's going to then get out to the world, don't say it. Always assume that everything has the potential to get out. That is my PR advice always. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:10:48]: The other thing about when you're building a personal brand, there's a difference between authenticity and honesty. Right. You don't have to have like a no lie filter on everything and just be like, well, I have to be honest about everything. We are still in a work world and you have to be cognizant that like we are not going to see eye to eye with every client and every candidate that we're working with. Kortney Harmon [00:11:11]: No, absolutely not. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:11:13]: Yeah. Kortney Harmon [00:11:14]: What do you think leaders get wrong when they're trying to build trust with those clients? Because honestly, in our industry they think about, they really think it's about speed and efficiency alone, like how fast can I get candidates to somebody? But that's also not what it's all about. Whenever they're trying to establish themselves as an authority or a person, like what else do you see people get wrong? Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:11:35]: Okay, there's two things that I see often and being even recruited myself. The first one is that people are moving so fast that their follow up isn't great. Does that make sense? It's like they're working with so many people. I can't tell you the amount of candidates. And these are high level candidates that have been in the business for 20, 30 years who are executives making a lot of money, who are just ghosted by recruiters. I think that's a terrible thing to do to anybody, to be honest. Whether you're dating, whether you're a friend, whether you're recruiting, like it's not a very like human nice thing to do. But yeah. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:12:12]: So I think that's the first thing is just like sometimes we Move so fast that we then actually like, slow down for efficiency sake. Right? Kortney Harmon [00:12:19]: Yeah. Hey, that helps you with that. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:12:23]: Yeah, right, Exactly. There are tools. Let's be smart. And then the other thing that I was gonna say is, and this is gonna sound so crazy, but it's so true. And I learned this in college. People bond by talking shit about other people and, or things. And I think a lot of the time what you get, especially when everything just feels like a lot right now around us. You can go to that place where like, okay, well, we can both bond over like this being crazy, right? Or like this or like, ugh, this person's terrible, blah, blah, blah. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:12:55]: That can, can catch up with you often. You need to be very careful about who you're talking about and when. So that's another thing where it's so easy to fall into that trap of like even like water cooler conversation or office politics. That is where it always goes first. And my younger self got very caught up in that. I mean, who doesn't love the tea, right? But as my older self, I'm like, oh, my God, that was so dumb. As I look back on like my career and not doing that well. Kortney Harmon [00:13:23]: And even when you're talking with candidates and clients and other companies of, oh, I interviewed here. Absolutely. I think that's one thing underestimate. I love that I'm going to switch gears because we're going to go back to personal brand. Because I can talk about this topic forever. It used to be the company was the brand. Now it's gotten more and more. I want my recruiters to have a brand because people follow people, right? Not necessarily companies. Kortney Harmon [00:13:50]: And you probably will talk more about this, but like, when we think about that and we talk to recruiters and say we want you to have a personal brand, but a lot of companies struggle to define that. How should recruiting professionals think about the personal brand as a relationship asset, not a marketing exercise? Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:14:08]: Oh, that's. I mean, that is like, that could be just this entire conversation. Kortney Harmon [00:14:12]: Okay, let's start. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:14:13]: So I think the first thing that happens, and as a PR person who's been both on the agency side and the brand side, I can tell you, like corporate PR people are the things that get in the way. They're going to send you the. Here's the header for your LinkedIn. Here are the things that you're allowed to talk about. Here are the things you're not allowed to talk about. We just posted this thing. We need you to share it. We need you to comment on it. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:14:35]: We need you to post it. I was that person. Now I coach people and I'm like, please don't do that. There's ways that those people can really market the business page and I think build the business brands without hurting the personal brands of the people that are working there. So the very first thing I'll tell anybody is take that work header off of that banner image off of your LinkedIn. That's not you, that's the business. Kortney Harmon [00:15:02]: Cool, Cool. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:15:03]: Great. Put up something that embodies who you are. The other thing is in your headline on your LinkedIn that is kind of like where you have search engine optimization. That is what's optimized. You don't need to say that you're a recruiter at Blank Company. That is obvious. That is. Scroll down a little bit. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:15:21]: We can see where you work. That should say exactly who you are, what you do, and should be pretty bold. That's going to fall in that category of where your search engine and AI optimization are going to fall in. So mine says exactly what I do. And then it also says that like everything I write is my own. Like I don't use. Especially on LinkedIn right now you can see how many posts are written by AI. You're like, oh, chatgpt just they plug this in and this is what that looks like. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:15:49]: And the other thing too is like the end goal for your personal brand is always everybody knows who you are and who you stand for without being in the room. We know quite who Kortney is, whether you're in the room or not. Your brand speaks so highly of you without you having to be there. But you've built that. So I think that's awesome and that's what we all want. So. And the other thing too is like, you may not be at that company for the rest of your life. You as a recruiter have to be building your own brand that can then transfer into wherever you go next, whether that is your own thing, whether that is a different company. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:16:24]: But while you're at that company, it's important for your brand to ladder up to that mission statement or whatever value the company has. That makes sense. Kortney Harmon [00:16:33]: 100% makes sense. Yes. As someone who's had to build my. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:16:38]: Brand from the ground up. Kortney Harmon [00:16:39]: So I understand. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:16:40]: I mean, no, but it's funny because I don't actually think you had to build the brand from the ground up, because I am, even as a new friend of yours, can guarantee that so much of your brand was who you are as a child, as a teenager, in college, like that's just who you are and what you're. I don't think the brands change. Kortney Harmon [00:17:00]: Fair. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:17:01]: I think brands evolve. Your personal brand can evolve, but I think if you're living true to who your personal brand is, your brand should not change according to what the world wants out of you. And if you're building a brand that is solely based on what you think everybody wants you to be, it is not going to work out well for you. Like, that is a facade that is very, very hard to keep up. Kortney Harmon [00:17:22]: I love that because that's like, mine goes along with my next question. Like, where do you see that alignment between what a leader thinks of how they show up and how candidates or clients or whoever actually interpret it? Is there a disconnect? Like, I have this thing that I think, but they experience me completely different. Do you think there's a disconnect between those two? Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:17:42]: I do. And I think thinking about my own brand, what I think it is and how people experience it probably are a little bit different. But I guess to everybody that I kind of work with, right, If I'm working in advertising or if I'm speaking on a panel or if I'm doing something else, but I'm never going to change who I am for them. But I also think that really comes with experience and just acceptance. There is something that happens as you get older that you're just kind of like, I'm so exhausted of having to be somebody else. Kortney Harmon [00:18:10]: You really have a different view in your 30s? My 40s we won't say what my new motto is, but my 30s was a realization of I don't have to appease everyone in the room. And that's really what my 30s like was that realization now for like, hey, I am who I am. Take it or leave it. You're here in the room or find a new room. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:18:29]: Well, and we have to think about too, this entire generation of Gen Z that is really in their, their personal branding when it comes to work positioning right now. And so many of them are authenticity to the core, but then the other, so many of them are taking a page out of like what a content creator is doing. And that is so hard to figure out what's next when it comes to that. Like, there is something too about, like, especially when you're LinkedIn, like, how many people are looking at me like, how many likes did I get? The thing about LinkedIn, and I just wanna remind everybody who's listening, is that that algorithm changes so often you cannot get ahead of it, even if you Try and, like, it really should not stress you out. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, one day you post something and it's got like five likes, and the next day you post something, it's got 3,000. Kortney Harmon [00:19:20]: You're like, so what you're saying, it's not them, it's the algorithm. That's what you're. Did you just say that? Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:19:27]: I mean, I think it's a little bit of both, right? If you're putting. If you're putting out of a post that it just sounds like AI wrote it. And B, you're not playing the game. I mean, like, on LinkedIn, you should be commenting on things, not reposting things. You. You should be posting a certain amount of times a week. Like, there is still an algorithmic game to this, right? Kortney Harmon [00:19:44]: Yeah. Okay, so you talked a lot about LinkedIn. I know you talked a lot about LinkedIn whenever we were out in California as well. With that being said, what are some algorithms that, if I am president on LinkedIn, which All recruiters are, what are the things that I need to know? What do I need to think about any algorithmic things? Tell me all, all the goodies. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:20:02]: Okay. For right now, Right. I'm telling you this because that could. Kortney Harmon [00:20:05]: Change tomorrow, today, January 22, 2020. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:20:10]: So the thing about LinkedIn, the number one thing I want everybody to think about first is do I want to be a thought leader on LinkedIn or do I want to be a participant? That makes a huge difference. You kind of need to be both at some point. But if you're like, I don't want to write anything personal, I don't really want to get into this, that's fine, too. Comment. Commenting actually gives your profile and the profile that you're commenting on more reach than anything else, because that's all about engagement. So comment away and comment with something that is real engagement. Right. Thoughtful conversation, congrats is not going to get you anything. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:20:44]: Right. When you are ready to post, I want you to think again about those kind of three pillars that I talked about. The hard skill, soft skill, passion project. Stay in your lane as you're building your brand. What does that look like as you're talking about recruiting? Are you sharing insights in a pillar? Let's say that you know a lot about. The other thing is, when it comes to authenticity, you want to share things that are real. Here's what I learned about this. Take this and run with it, but also have a little fun with it. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:21:12]: The other thing is you do want to go through and AI optimize your page. Your bio should be in first person. You should have a bio using all of the tools that LinkedIn has. It will reward you for so making sure that you have recommendations. I tell all my clients like a Friday every month, write a recommendation or referral for somebody, one person. It means the world to that person to have somebody say something nice about them. And to be honest, it's actually like I just feel like that's good for you too. Giving compliments is just as important as receiving them. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:21:46]: Make sure your picture is real. Unless you work in AI, do not use an AI headshot. It makes you look like a bot. And there are bots on LinkedIn too. So you need to think about that. Kortney Harmon [00:21:57]: Right. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:21:58]: I have turned off my notifications on my phone for 2026 when it comes to LinkedIn. Now as recruiters, I know that is very hard and you can't do that. But even if you turn them off at night, it just gives you a little bit of reset. And for me it took away the anxiety of what is everybody thinking right now? One of the best things I actually did this year, and this is not LinkedIn related, but I got a brick. Have you heard of this? My God, it's amazing. So it's like this little thing but you can brick different apps on your phone, especially if you have kids. I would brick my kids phones every night. It's incredible. Kortney Harmon [00:22:33]: I'm a crazy mom. Like they have lockdown, like it doesn't work until after 9pm, doesn't work before 5. They, they get like a four hour window but they only get an hour on it. Yeah, I'm crazy. But I need to look at that. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:22:44]: It's awesome. And you can use your FSA or HSA on N2. Kortney Harmon [00:22:48]: Okay. Yeah. But anyway, you talked about this and I don't know, it was before we started recording or after. But burnout in this industry, in all industries right now, in all industries world is crazy. So it's really a good reset to be like when I'm there, I'm 100% there. I'm never just half there. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:23:06]: Yes, I experienced burnout where I ended up getting a migraine, drove myself to the hospital and I lost all my motor skills. They literally, they thought I was having a stroke. Then they thought that I had like drug overdose and I was, I mean I had gone into shock. I was like, no, I couldn't tell anybody what was wrong with me. And the thing is that burnout presents to everybody in so many different ways. So there's not like a one size fits all. Like, here's a silver bullet of you're not burned out anymore. So I also think when you're talking to people about what's going on, when you're recruiting people, there just needs to be a sense of understanding back to what you were saying of like, everybody is just like, very in a heightened state of anxiety and stress right now. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:23:47]: I try to remind everybody there's always something going on in somebody's life that you don't know. So it's definitely hard. Burnout is so specific and so personal. It is the individual that needs to acknowledge that they are burned out and then needs to do something about it. Kortney Harmon [00:24:00]: But I love the brick is a good option. I love it. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:24:02]: It's great. Kortney Harmon [00:24:03]: Anything else for LinkedIn profiles before I move on to something else? We talked about this before on the panel. I look at LinkedIn as, like, your storefront. It is like, what do you want them to see? Because you don't need them to see a family photo from Christmas or whatever. What do you want them to see? And what do you want to stand out to them? So that is my favorite way of saying that because really puts it into perspective for people. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:24:25]: Yeah. My last thing on LinkedIn is that I really believe that this year will be the year of kind of like, unhinged bravery, because you're going to be like, oh, that person's real. So especially because I work in more of a creative environment, I'm kind of, like, leaning into that and what that means for people who are in more, I'd say, like, corporate roles. Right. Like manufacturing and I think different board seats and that kind of stuff. You have to do what's right for your industry and what feels right for you. But I always tell people that people are connecting over the things that are personal. Right. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:24:58]: Where you're like, oh, my God, you're a twin. I'm a twin, and I always connect with people that I'm like, oh, my God, you have a twin. You are a twin. She doesn't look like me. We are very, very different. But still, it is a connector. When people write on their LinkedIn like, I've rescued two dogs. Someone will always see that and be like, oh, my God, I too, am a dog. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:25:14]: Like, dog person. I love this. So, like, what are the few things that you love to talk about that you don't need to think about talking about that you're like, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of candidates. We're all good at this. But, like, this is the special sauce. And this is the thing that I like love to talk about that I can bring to the table. So I just like kind of lean into that too. Kortney Harmon [00:25:33]: That was 100% like, I'm gonna go industry specific for a second. While I didn't have, I know my clients didn't have a need when I was running a desk, I still kept my meeting because we talked about mother in laws coming into town, we talked about soccer tournaments. And I will tell you, they're like, this is my best meeting because I don't have to know that you're gonna sell to me, but they're gonna tell me all the things. They're gonna tell me what is happening in their business, what needs they're gonna have. I have more insight because I don't make it transactional and it's not a hard sale than someone else that was trying to sell them something. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:26:05]: But I think that's the thesis of this entire conversation. When it gets to relationships is what is the authentic relationship that I'm building with somebody and why? Because that's a relationship that you can bring with you to every job and to every role and to every different big life moments that you can celebrate with people again. Being in PR and working with media, I always know when it's somebody's birthday. I know when they're having babies. You know what I mean? Like, I know when things are not great and I always send like a little note. And back when you could send gifts to journalists, I used to send, we used to send like little onesies and little gifts and a book that we really loved. And that's what creates relationships and that's what creates really authentic connection. And that's the thing that I hope that more people will get back to doing, because I just. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:26:50]: So much of that has gone by the wayside of sending people memes and hoping that that's the connection that's making it pop. And that's not really working. Kortney Harmon [00:26:58]: Well. Technology, I think it's removing some friction from recruiting because they look at it like an easy button. Granted, we all want an easy button. I can tell you I live in ChatGPT all day long to validate my spelling errors and all the other wonderful things that I am meant to talk and not write in a day. But I think it's also distancing us from people. So as firms think about all the tech that they're using, where should these recruiting firms intentionally slow down to protect the human side of the relationship? Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:27:27]: It's just a hard question. Because I think so much of it comes to budget. And I know that sounds crazy, but I really do believe it is the in person stuff that makes all the difference in the world. Kortney Harmon [00:27:36]: And most of our recruiting firms, they recruit nationally, so like, in person is hard for them. So yeah, I can understand that would come down to budget. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:27:43]: In person is really hard. But I think it makes a big difference when as a recruiter you're like, you know what? I'm going to go to Los Angeles for three days, I'm going to post up and I'm going to tell everybody that I'm going to this specific restaurant and I'm going to hold a happy hour. You don't have to pay for everybody. But it just like, how are we meeting these people in person and how are we actually seeing how they interact in person? I think that makes a huge difference. I also think that I don't know how this happened in the recruiting industry. Please let me know if you have insight. I'm sure you do, but insight on this. The nine waves of interviews that need to happen. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:28:18]: So it's like, oh my, I've been interviewing with this company for four weeks and I've dedicated three hours at a time and I've met 17 people. Do you really need to meet 17 people for a mid level director job? So I think that in many ways I don't know why we're doing that, but when I talk to candidates, that's the thing that I think is really frustrating because you've also dedicated so much of your time and, and when you don't get that job, it really feels awful. And there's not a lot of understanding around that. Kortney Harmon [00:28:49]: I think there's a lot recruiters can do in that regard to be like, here's the expectation, here's what you're going through. But I think I'm going to take a stab at this because I've seen this happen hundreds of times. They don't necessarily know who or what they want for the role. And they've opened a can of worms by interviewing to say, oh my gosh, Elizabeth has a skill. I didn't know I needed this skill, skill, but now maybe I need that skill. So I think as people start going into the interview process, it's like a la carte, like, ooh, maybe I didn't really understand the true job description of what we put out. And maybe we need this. I think people start to second guess themselves. Kortney Harmon [00:29:24]: That's my guess. I'm not defending any of those companies, but do think that comes down to us as recruiters. It's hard to pull teeth or push a rope, if you want to say that, to say, hey, I need a job description. But we're going to walk through this to make sure you truly need these things versus want these things. Because when I'm giving you the plethora of people, we can't say, oh, well, maybe, or, oh, can I just see one more? That puts us all in a hard position. So 100%, that's probably where that stems from. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:29:51]: And when it comes to the tech side of things, I mean, I think I told you that I also guest lecture at a few universities. The students are very stressed out about having AI interviews and that being their first foray into this is what this job is. And this is like, how are they supposed to understand and how are they supposed to then sell themselves through this? I think I'm going to be fascinated, I really am fascinated on where the trajectory of this is going to go and how this is going to affect this new generation getting into the workforce when they're already kind of being told, like, doesn't really matter where you go to school. It doesn't really matter what you do. Like, you need to be able to do these five things, and then there's not a lot of jobs for you anyway. So let me know if you decide to do an entire hour on that, because I can't wait to hear about what that looks like and how relationships are going to affect that as well. Kortney Harmon [00:30:38]: We're going to have to come back to this, at least touch points along the way, like Pulse, like, six months from now. How's it going? Because I can tell you, even just from what, when we started using ChatGPT, like, two years ago to where it is today and what it's doing now, I think from our industry, we also thought, like, AI would be doing more now. You're right, AI is still interviewing. But people that are having business today, which is amazing, all of my conversations, these larger organizations, they're like, we're struggling. The ones that are doing well right now, which is crazy to me, is the moms and pop shop, the two to four or five recruiters in an office. Those people haven't lost their way because they don't have the budget to buy all the tech, and they're not getting lost in the mix. They have to rely on, hey, let's go get coffee. Hey, let's go have a conversation. Kortney Harmon [00:31:26]: And these bigger organizations are adding tech to be like, let's go bigger, faster, stronger And I think it's having an opposite effect. Now I can only speak to the people that I'm speaking to. But it's been funny that people that are really good at their jobs right now have based it all on relationships. They're not going to find new clients. They have just really good ones that they have put their blood, sweat and tears in relationship wise to send them the onesie to give a congratulations, to give a birthday call, because that's all they got. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:31:54]: I mean, I think it's relationships. I don't think it's intuition. Kortney Harmon [00:31:57]: Oh no. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:31:58]: I mean, I talk a lot about intuitive intelligence and I do a workshop all about that is like, how do you really hone in and remember how to like strengthen that skill when AI is kind of pulling you in the opposite direction. And I don't think enough people use referral programs. I have referral agreements with like 30 different people because somebody can come to me and be like, I have this job, like, you know our business, you know what I'm looking for. You've really done a good job at like. And this is what I pride myself on too, of really nurturing and growing my network throughout the many jobs that I've had and throughout my career. So when somebody comes to me and they're looking for something, I'm like, I know exactly. These are the three people that I would recommend. So people are getting counsel that way and you're fast tracking yourself. Kortney Harmon [00:32:47]: Right. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:32:47]: So I just don't think enough people think about the fact that their network is IP and that they should get a kickback for it. Kortney Harmon [00:32:55]: Okay. As AI continues to automate, obviously it's going to continue to increase. What do you think? What relationship skill becomes most valuable, not less for recruiters going in with more AI, more automation. What is the one skill that is going to be like if you sharpen any sword, this is the one. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:33:12]: So funny. The very first thing that like came into my head was like your everyday conversation, like being able to have a conversation like this. But I think that's like a life skill. And that is something that a lot of people struggle with because they're like, I don't want to waste anybody's time. I don't know if I'm talking about the right things. And I think the thing that's going to continue to strengthen relationships is connection in real life, actually connecting, I think community, finding the right organizations and networks that feel like those are your people and give you both support and an outlet as well as reach. But authentic conversation is the Thing that I just think, like, small talk. People have forgotten how to small talk. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:33:55]: And I blame the pandemic partly for that. Again, I think there were some things that were hugely beneficial that we learned from that experience. But I also think many people isolated and their groups got smaller. Instead of being able to have conversations about big things and easy things, we don't need to always be having conversations about hard things. Sometimes you can just talk about, like, the football game or a hockey TV show or whatever book you're reading. It doesn't have to be so serious. Kortney Harmon [00:34:29]: I like it. Maybe that's why we get along. We just do a lot of small talk. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:34:32]: We are good small talkers. But it is, you know, one of the things we met him at the conference as well, is there's a lot of people who need training in that, especially people who are. Who are not as extroverted as the two of us. Right. Who really need to learn how to tell their own story and need to learn how to have those conversations. So I also think if you're somebody who has a little issue with that, look into classes, look into groups that are actually going to help you foster and help you really learn how to do that in a way that makes sense right now. Kortney Harmon [00:35:05]: I love it. And that answer actually goes into my next question, but I would maybe not like you to answer that way. Recruiting reputations travel fast, right? Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:35:13]: Yeah. All reputations travel fast. That everybody should know this. Yes. Kortney Harmon [00:35:17]: Wait a minute. Didn't we talk after, like, the cold plate incident happened for the first time? Like that was like the, like it was like post. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:35:23]: Yes, yes. Kortney Harmon [00:35:25]: Some reputations travel faster than others. Okay, so with that being said, obviously reputation travel fast. What habits should we be thinking about? Maybe helping professionals build relationships that compound over time? What habits should we encourage people to do to help their reputation and their personal brand besides authentic conversations? Because I'm sure there's a lot of people out there. I'm a little type A. I create my own habits. You already talked about things you're already implementing and not implementing for the year. But I think it comes down to. And you said network as your net worth, essentially. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:36:02]: Got it. Okay. Kortney Harmon [00:36:03]: Yeah. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:36:03]: I needed to understand how to answer that question properly. I think you need to set some goals for yourself, some 20, 26 goals for yourself that feel a little outside of your comfort zone if you are not a, like, natural connector. Right. So it's like this year, go to one event, two. Right. Is it something that is a dinner with a bunch of people that you've Never met before. Is it just something outside of your comfort zone that's going to, I think, challenge you to do and think differently? I love going to conferences that are totally outside of my industry. I had so much fun at that conference in San Francisco because I knew nobody there. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:36:40]: And for me, now, that sounds like a nightmare to a lot of people. I totally understand that. But for me, I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I had no idea that these are all of the other things that people are thinking about in a totally different industry. This is super interesting. And then it opens up a network with you and then a bunch of other people that I didn't know and tools that I had, like, no idea even existed. So I think that. I think when it comes to different habits that you can think about when it comes to LinkedIn, again, that feels very overwhelming and can feel very stressed out if you're like, oh, my God, now I have to do this. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:37:14]: It's also, let's be real, like, LinkedIn is very cringy. There's a lot of things you're just like, really? This is going on in the world right now and someone's talking about this award they won. Like, I cannot be bothered. Just know that it is part of the game that we all kind of have to play. And pick one or two things that you can do. I'd say a week, but maybe a month that are different than what you've. Kortney Harmon [00:37:35]: Done in the past. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:37:36]: Are you posting something? Have you changed your LinkedIn? Have you commented more this month? So it's behavioral changes that actually do pay off once you really lean in. But like anything else, it has to be a goal that you're setting yourself towards of what that looks like for you. Kortney Harmon [00:37:54]: I love it. I mean, and that could even be as little as, oh, I need to put emphasis on my LinkedIn brand number one. It could be likes comments, it could be writing your own content. It could be recommendations. You mentioned that. Or even request a recommendation. I think people are fearful to ask, but I think it's also a good exercise. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:38:12]: Okay, so on the recommendation thing, I always tell everybody, think about your recommendations. Cause someone's gonna say to you, I'll sure, I'll write your recommendation. If you can write it, then they all sound like you, and that's ridiculous. I am the power of threes for everything. So I always say, like, break it up into three things again. It can be like your client relationship, how you manage somebody on your team, and the success of Blank Blank Blank. I would send those to Somebody and be like, I would love it if you would write about just our relationship and what it was like working together as me as your client or working together as me as your manager. These were the things that stood out for me. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:38:45]: Give somebody some, like, thought starters, then go ahead. Because if you're just like, I'd love you to write a recommendation. A lot of people get, like, super stressed out about that. Cause they're like, oh, my God, I have no idea what to say about this person. So it's almost like you want to give them all of the ingredients in the pantry so they can make the meal. It's pretty easy. I also wanted to say on when it comes to relationships and other things, of how you can nurture those. I want everybody to think about the things that they really love. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:39:12]: Like, what is something that I actually like, really love to do? Like, do I love playing pickleball? Great. Think about how you can then create a networking event with everybody playing pickleball. Do I love teaching? Do I love mentoring? If that's something you really love to do, set up a monthly meeting in your office of just like, you know what, I'm gonna invite all the junior staff in here, and you guys can ask me any questions about my career and what that meant and how I can help you. But if you're doing the things that you actually really love to do, it's not gonna feel like work. It's going to feel like you have a little bit more purpose. And it's going to feel a little bit like, okay, I'm just, like, blending the things that I need to do with the things that I like to do, and then it's not so hard. Kortney Harmon [00:39:50]: Love it. I feel like you're answering my questions before you. I ask them. Dang it. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:39:54]: Yeah. I'm also an intuitive, so that helps. Kortney Harmon [00:39:56]: If you were advising a recruiting firm or owner, because you very well might after this podcast, who maybe wants to future proof their business. What's one relationship building habit that they should start, start or stop Today, How. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:40:10]: I would manage the company is to let your recruiter shine. Allow them to be them. You can always give a framework of what that looks like, but let them talk about the things and let them create the relationships that are then going to allow them to thrive. Because if they are successful, the business is successful. And the more you handcuff somebody, the more they cannot be successful. Kortney Harmon [00:40:34]: That's a very taboo thing for a lot of organizations. They're like, yeah, these are. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:40:38]: I know everything we can talk about. Kortney Harmon [00:40:39]: I'M very lucky. My organization's like, hey, you know what you're doing? You know what you're talking about? Go talk. And I can literally meet a marketing specialist in San Francisco and relate it to our industry, because that's what it is. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:40:51]: But you've built trust to do that, right? So that's the other thing, too. Kortney Harmon [00:40:55]: Yeah, that is good advice. Very good advice. Well, thanks. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:40:59]: My name's Sake. And then when it comes to, I think things that people need to stop doing is, again, those things that, like, really feel like they're sucking the life out of you, that's always the stop. Because that tends to be the thing that really doesn't serve you in the long run. And I'm sure people are going to be like, great, Well, I hate this new tool that Mark Company's making us use. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not telling you to stop using the tool. We all need to adapt at the speed of which the world is innovating and moving quickly. But again, there has to be a balance of how we can do this and that. It is very stressful to hear a bunch of. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:41:38]: And again, it tends to be, I think, a more senior group of people that I'm hearing this from. But to say, like, I'm just not into AI. I mean, that's like saying you're just, like, not into the Internet in the 90s or, like, email in, like, 2000. Like, not my jam. It's happening. So, like, how can we blend both worlds together in a way that will allow us to continue to keep the relationship part of our job, authentic and human? We are all, as a society, literally building the planes. We're flying it. Like, that is crazy to think about. Kortney Harmon [00:42:12]: The pedal is to the metal, and we are all passengers right now. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:42:15]: Yeah. So it's kind of like, okay, well, what are we going to do while we're there? Kortney Harmon [00:42:19]: But continue to keep your ear to the ground, listen to what people are doing, and take what you like. I have coached for years, and I played Division 1 softball, and literally every single time, a good coach was like, just take one thing. Take one thing you heard to be like, okay, I can adapt it or I can twist it or I can use it in this way. Don't feel like you've got to change everything from start to finish through this process, but be concrete. Love it. I'm only going to ask you one more question. I had, like, 12 more questions, but I am not shocked you did not get all of them. What is one relationship lesson from your own career that you think every recruiting leader should learn sooner rather than later. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:42:58]: I think it was when I was younger and the bonding by talking shit about people and things, that was the thing that I look back and didn't serve me. As I've gotten older, too, I have really learned the difference between responding and reacting. And you can write that email, Just don't send that email. You can listen, but you don't have to immediately have a response. And that, I think, has to do with us wanting to move so quickly and wanting to get things done. And so much of the time, it's more about, maybe I should do this right instead of now. And that is a really hard lesson to learn. And especially as a business owner, it is something that I'm really priding myself on now, where it was like, I need this now. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:43:45]: And I'm like, okay, but I want to get this right. So let's actually think about what this means and why. And then also just being able to, like, pivot as things change again, the world is happening so quickly around us. We have to be very cognizant that, like, sometimes our initial response the next day is not actually going to work anymore. So this really learning the difference between respond and reacting is important, but it is something that has to be practiced. Kortney Harmon [00:44:12]: I love that. Now, what if someone wants to work with you? How do they know what they work with you with? Where do they find you? Give me all the details for those that are working with you currently, a. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:44:22]: Lot of recruiters send me people that they're working with who either are looking for purpose, who are looking for a personal brand refresh. I work with a lot of executives on how to tell their story in the most interesting way possible. So the thing that's funny is a lot of people come to me and they're like, well, I want to talk about, you know, AI and leadership and, you know, creativity. I'm like, no one cares what you have to say about any of those things. Like, that is not interesting. But you have this really interesting, like, job and where you grew up and you've adopted three kids and you, you know, have traveled the world and, like, let's talk about that and how we build that into your brand and your story and how you show up in the world and what you have to offer. It is my absolute favorite thing to do. Like, I love putting the mirror up to people and showing them who they really are. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:45:12]: It is the best. And then I also just work with a lot of companies on their executive leadership on PR and marketing in terms of like how the brand is showing up in the world properly. As I said, I my network is so vast so normally someone's like I need this and this. I'm like hold on a sec. There's so many amazing fractional talent right now in the world and I think you can get very, very high level strategic thinking of somebody who's seen more and has been in a different industry and has a different perspective that is actually going to catapult your business versus doing the same old same old all the time. So you can find me on LinkedIn. It is my favorite platform. And then@thegoodadvicecompany.com I will put both of. Kortney Harmon [00:45:54]: Those in the show notes in case anybody is curious or reach out to me if you're on LinkedIn and I will happily put the two of you together. I love this. This was amazing. This is out of the norm, but something people don't talk about or think about enough. So thank you for sharing your perspective on relationships, leadership, presence, what it really means to show up intentionally. So really, relationships are still our foundation and how you communicate, build trust, all of those things are important and honestly help shape your career, your reputation after the long haul, after everything is done. So Elizabeth, thank you so much for your time today. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:46:31]: Thank you. I mean I knew it was we met this would be a fun conversation and I know there's many more to come, so I appreciate you inviting me. Kortney Harmon [00:46:37]: On many, many more. Elizabeth Rosenberg [00:46:41]: I'm Kortney Harmon with crelate. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Industry Spotlight, a new series from the Full Desk Experience. New episodes will be dropping monthly. Be sure you're subscribed to our podcast so you can catch the next Industry Spotlight episode and all episodes episodes of the Full Desk Experience here or wherever you listen.