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Attachment: Connections That Shape Us · Millennial Mental Health Channel

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, Eddie, what's your Halloween costume this year?
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: Damn it?
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: This is Millennial Mental Health Channel. I'm doctor Justin Romano,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: a Child and Adolescent psychiatry fellow, and.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: I'm Medikoreo, a licensed clinical therapist. Our podcast is here
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: because we wanted to start a much new to conversation
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: about mental health.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Our goal is to teach you as much as we
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: can by sharing our own experiences and interviewing experts in
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: the mental health field. We will discuss topics like mood disorders,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: psychotic disorders, substance use, personality disorders, and many more.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Millennial Mental Health Channel buy Millennials for everyone. We hope
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: you enjoy. Today's episode.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: MMHC is a production of Speaker from iHeartMedia.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I HEARTMA. Okay, hold on, how do I best explain this?
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: We're not going to the Halloween party. Kevin and I
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: are not going to the Halloween party that we usually
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: go through this year because instead we will be celebrating
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: the one year anniversary of our friends getting married. Shout
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: out Grace and Jeff. So weon't do that but tomorrow
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: I'm planning. I randomly years ago bought this headband from
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Dollar Tree that has like little bees on it. And
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: then I'm gonna wear a yellow shirt and some black
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: and then I'm gonna call it good.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: So he's just gonna be a big, cute, little big
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: did you guys do you Dan?
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Liam? What do you guys got?
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: We went to a party last weekend and I said,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: hence I shaved my beard so that I could be
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: doctor Evil.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I did see that.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: We'll have to post a picture on the on the Instagram.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: The we we.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Didn't bring him to Omaha, but we got him a
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: minime outfit so that I could put him in his
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: baby Bjorn and go yeah, Mini me.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: I love those Austin Powers movies. It's so funny.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Those were good.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: So today I do have a shout out real quick. Actually,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: I just was on a podcast called The Internet Is
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Crack and I had a great time. Yeah, it's all
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: about how the Internet is addictive and crack. So it's
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: a perfectly right up my alley. Oh and it's kind
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: of another off topic, but my ted talk is up
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  Speaker 1: to over four hundred thousand views on YouTube. It's just
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: crazy that that many people have seen it. So yeah,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: shout out to the Internet is Crack. I had a
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: great time on the show. Any shout outs for you,
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: my friend.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Well, that's just making me think of you. Ever seen
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: the clip of Stephen A. Smith who like, there's something
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: with like lamar Otum and then he goes whose first
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: move as head coach of the Lakers was to draft
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: or trade for lamar Otum, who was on Crack.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: So I thought you were gonna go with stay off
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: the we is a walking sound by?
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  Speaker 2: He is? He really is. Yeah, I don't have a
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: shout out other than Steven A. Smith.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Well today we're gonna be talking about attachment and yeah.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: I recently had someone ask me, like, who's your favorite
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: like child psychiatry theorist, because there's a couple a handful
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: of people who have like really influenced the field of
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: child psychiatry.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 1: I had to think about it for a second and
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: I said, I guess if it comes down to it,
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  Speaker 1: I would say John Bowlby, who came up with attachment theory.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Because there are a few things in this world from
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: a psychological perspective that makes sense and applies to almost
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: every single human on earth. But I think attachment theory
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: does it. I think it is such a simple but
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: beautiful theory that helps explain why people do what they
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: do and act how they act. So that's one of
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: the reasons why I wanted to talk about it with
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: you guys today.
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  Speaker 2: Was Bolby the one that did the study with Oh man,
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: it's like the something Stranger, like the unknown stranger. Do
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: you know?
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, the Strange situations developed by Ainsworth. So that was
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Mary Ainsworth based John Bowlby's attachment theory. So it is
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: building upon it.
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  Speaker 2: I'm always surprised when I remember ship from school.
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  Speaker 1: Years and years ago. Now we're getting old, we are
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  Speaker 1: getting old.
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  Speaker 2: Oh can you give me a definition of attachment theory?
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  Speaker 2: What do I need to know about this?
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  Speaker 1: So, according to simplypsychology dot com, and I like this
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: definition that they had. Attachment theory is a model for
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  Speaker 1: understanding human beings, behavior, and psychology, emphasizing the central role
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  Speaker 1: of caregivers and attachment figures who provide a sense of
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  Speaker 1: safety insecurity. Attachment theory hypothesizes that early caregiver relationships established social, emotional,
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  Speaker 1: and developmental foundations, but change remains possible across a lifespan
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  Speaker 1: due to interpersonal relationships during childhood, adolescent, and adulthood, so
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  Speaker 1: essentially our relationships that we have with our primary caregivers
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  Speaker 1: as babies, so most of the time it's our parents
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  Speaker 1: shapes the relationships for the rest of our lives. And
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: this stuff isn't static. It is dynamic. It can change
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  Speaker 1: and it can move, but sometimes it can be hard
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  Speaker 1: to change these things, and a lot of these patterns
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  Speaker 1: that are built when we are babies are there for
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: a long time for a lot of our lives.
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  Speaker 2: I like that part of the end where it says
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: it remains possible to change across lifespan due to other
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: interpersonal relationships. TikTok has made so much of like basic
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: psychology information and like definitions into like this pop psychology stuff,
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: so you get like, I don't know, you get these
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: things like psychology says that if you react this way
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: when someone opens the door, it means you have anxious attachment.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: And it's like, I don't know, like that, that's that's
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  Speaker 2: way too like trivialize. It's not that much. Yeah, And
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: then I think on the other side of it, you
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  Speaker 2: get people who will say, like, oh, well, I learned
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: off of TikTok that I act this way because of
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: my attachment style from my childhood and it's like, yeah,
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: I mean that could be part of it, but also
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: you've had a number of other interpersonal relationships that can
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  Speaker 2: help and have help shape your attachment style and the
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: way that you interact with others. So like to just
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: base your behavior off of like a thirty second video
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: from TikTok, I think is which you shouldn't be doing
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: that anyway, But I think that's the one thing when
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: we when the decision was made to talk about attachment
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: style today attachment theory, that was one of the first
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: things that came up was how much like I think,
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: it's the spot in the middle where it just gets
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: all mushy because of social media and TikTok. I don't
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: like that part social media.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: TikTok, they're teaching people about a lot of this stuff,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: but just like anything on the Internet, there is so
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: much false information misinformation out there. You've really got to
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: be careful what sources you have. Yeah, you know, the
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: only one I really trust on social media is casual Geographic.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Have you ever seen that Guy's like animals? It's hilarious.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: There's this guy who just does these animal videos and
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: you can clearly tell these a huge SpongeBob fan. Seems
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: like he's a millennial, and so yeah, you're looking him
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: up right now. Yes, I've been watching a ton of
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: his videos that they're all letched about animals. They're lighthearted
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: and funny. He doesn't Yeah, he's great.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: Curious I have seen this guy before.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's John viral a bunch of times. He's super popular,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: but no one knows that. Like it's casual geographic.
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  Speaker 2: Is yea the times I see it's where he talks
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  Speaker 2: about like, oh, these animals seem fluffy and cuddly, right
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  Speaker 2: wrong this, Yeah, we talked about it. Why is this important?
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  Speaker 2: It's important even though I should it on a little bit,
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  Speaker 2: not really, it just the tiktoks out of it. But
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  Speaker 2: it's important because it means that every relationship that you
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  Speaker 2: have in your lifetime is in some way, shape or
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  Speaker 2: form influenced by the relationship that you had with your
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  Speaker 2: caregivers growing up. This makes me think about you know,
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: when I was working in a clinic where I had
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  Speaker 2: a lot of clients who were like in the foster
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  Speaker 2: system or who were going through maybe change of caregiver,
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  Speaker 2: all that kind of thing, and you can really see
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  Speaker 2: how it impacts how they either react to certain situations,
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  Speaker 2: how they think about certain situations. It's not just like
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  Speaker 2: this person or person reactions of like how do they
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  Speaker 2: act with their caregiver, how do they talk to adults,
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  Speaker 2: But even it extends to like relationships with other kids,
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  Speaker 2: with kids their age, with other peers, with siblings. That
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  Speaker 2: kind of stuff impacts those relationships too, And you can
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  Speaker 2: really see when it's someone who's had struggles with their
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  Speaker 2: original caregiver that can really impact them for a long time.
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  Speaker 2: It could impact the way that they choose a partner
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  Speaker 2: later in life. It could impact the way that they
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  Speaker 2: choose friends. It could impact the way that they how
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  Speaker 2: they are as a worker and an employee, Like all
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  Speaker 2: those kinds of things can be impacted because of what
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  Speaker 2: they've gone through early on in life with their caregiver
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  Speaker 2: and with those relationships. We don't want to just say
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  Speaker 2: it's just parents, because there's a lot of roles that
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: come into play. But things that think about too are
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  Speaker 2: things like grandparents, teachers, I mentioned it, foster parents, daycare workers.
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  Speaker 2: If you're someone that goes to a daycare early on
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  Speaker 2: in life, you're there for the first three or four
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  Speaker 2: years of your life. It's the same people. Well, they
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  Speaker 2: definitely will have an impact on you and you growing up.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: As a child psychiatrist and a clinician, I would have
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  Speaker 1: to say like ninety percent of my tough cases are
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  Speaker 1: the ones where kids grow up without a solid, consistent caregiver.
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  Speaker 1: Mom and dad are usually into drugs and alcohol in
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  Speaker 1: and out of prison. They're not consistent in their kids' lives,
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  Speaker 1: and they never really learn how to bond and connect
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  Speaker 1: with people, so it's hard for them to trust you.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: It's hard for them to open up, it's hard for
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: them to work on things because just the basics of
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: trust and understanding each other takes so long to establish
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  Speaker 1: that these cases can take a very long time to
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: make any progress. But if you do have a good, safe,
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  Speaker 1: secure attachment to your caregivers growing up, you're more likely
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: to be trusting, loving, and understanding. I see so many
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  Speaker 1: people make comments like, you know, I can't remember that
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: time in my life, so how important can it be?
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: But actually it's so incredibly important. And so many things
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: that we learn as babies are subconscious as adults, like
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: literally how to move, Like I'm watching my nineteen month
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: old baby right now learn how to move his body.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: All of this stuff is going to be so second
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: nature by the time he becomes an adult, But right now,
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: it's a day to day learning. How do you walk,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: how do you move? How do you lift your leg?
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: How do you move around? Same stuff with relationships and
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: trust with people. You learn so much when you're a kid,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: and you establish those foundations when you're a baby, So
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: you learn how to trust, you learn how to love,
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: You learn how to make up with people, You learn
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: how to forgive people, You learn how to problem solve
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: during relationships. Those first three years of your life is
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: so crucial and essential for your emotional and social development.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: Man, that really makes me think just so much. I
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: mentioned it earlier and you were talking about it. Those
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: kids who are in the foster system will have a
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: really negative relationship with their caregivers of like I think,
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: I guess I want to talk about a little more,
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Like yeah, it's not just the those like peer to
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: peer or parent to peer relationships, but I just think
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: of like how they react when they get like a negative,
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: negative constructive feedback from a teacher, How they react when
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: a boss tells them that they did something wrong. How
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: do they react when someone out in public takes their
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: parking spot? Like, all these things end up being shaped.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: A lot of it because of, you know, what their
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: relationship was with their caregiver early on. I didn't say
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: this earlier. I was thinking about it as you talked.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Reactive attachment disorder right, very common in kids teens who
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: either were in the foster system, who maybe didn't grow
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: up with a primary caregiver. That is something that we
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: see a lot, and I saw a ton when I
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: had clients who are on who were in foster care.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: Like they they struggled, they had these things. And then
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: you think about too, like, these are the kids that
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: you get reports from school, or you get reports from daycare,
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: you get reports from other institutions that they blow up
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: or they don't know how to talk to kids, or
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: they don't know how to communicate with others. And it's
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: all a lot of it comes from, you know, those
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: early on relationships that they had with their care or
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: lack of relationships that they had with their caregiver. It
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: just you're making me think today, I like good, it's connecting,
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: it's connecting dots. We'll talk about research. What does it
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: say according to the Cleveland Clinic, there's been about five
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: decades of research on attachment theory, which is confirmed that
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: your earliest bonds can directly affect the health of your
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: romantic relationships. And then there's babies whose caregivers can regularly
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: be relied on for comfort and devoted attention, they tend
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: to have more stable relationships later on. And then there's
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: infants whose caregivers are the ones. When they have caregivers
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: who are less attentive are more likely to have more
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: difficulty forming healthy relationships as adults. So even like you
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: said earlier, justin people will say, you know, I can't
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: remember that part of my life. How important can it be?
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: You mentioned it already very important.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: There's a couple of different specific attachments types and styles,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: which is what I love about this. It's it's simple,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: it's clear, it's concise, and it just nails it so perfectly,
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: does ya thinking about it in a simplistic way. There's
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: secure attachment and insecure attachment. There's one type of secure
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: attachment and a couple of types of insecure, but secure
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: attachment style usually comes from babies who form secure attachments
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: with their caregivers and when the caregivers provide consistently or
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: consistent physical and emotional needs. They're fulfilling all of those
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: needs of a baby. Babies who are securely attached prefer
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: their primary giver over other people and are calmed by
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: their presence.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: I think about that too, when you have like, yeah,
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: like a newborn. You have a baby who like you know,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: the aunt, uncle, whatever, like they're trying to help out too,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: but like it does and always work the same. It's
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: when they get to mom or dad or whoever primary
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: caregivers are. That's when they start to feel sooth. I
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: see that a lot of like, yeah, that that is
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: an example of a secure attachment. People with a secure
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: attachment style or style are more readily able to form
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: long lasting and healthy relationships with others, and they're more
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: likely to trust their partner and be emotionally available for them.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: It's estimated that about fifty eight percent of adults have
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: a secure attachment style, so that leaves about forty two
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: percent dispersed across the other ones. And then, just because
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: someone has a secure attachment style does not mean it's
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: smooth sailing all the time, that's for sure. It definitely
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: does not mean they are without issues or problems or
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: running into things, but.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: The foundations there you're able to form trust and connections
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: with other people. So let's dive into those insecure attachment.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: So the first one is called anxious attachments to usually
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: happens when babies whose primary caregivers are not consistent in
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: meeting the baby's needs. Babies learn that they may or
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: may not get the attention they need to survive, and
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: they aren't easily comforted by their caregivers. People with anxious
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: attachment style may be seen as clingy, needy, or not trusting.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: They often have a strong fear of abandonment and feel
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: like they need a lot of reassurance in relationships. And
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: it's estimated that about nineteen percent of adults have an
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: anxious attachment style, so about one in five.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: The next one is avoidant attachment. So this usually occurs
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: when a caregiver does not provide a baby with sufficient
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: emotional support. They often do care for the physical needs
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: like feeding and bathing, but not the emotional comfort that
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: the baby also needs. The baby then learns to not
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: rely on others for their emotional needs. As adults with
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: avoidant attachment style, they could be seen as self reliant
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: and emotionally guarded, and they're unlikely to seek comfort, seek
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: emotional comfort, understand how they're how to comfort their partner emotionally.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: And it's estimated that about twenty three percent of adults
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: have and avoidant attachment style. So that's the that's about
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: one in four instead of the one in five.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: And the last one is disorganized attachment. This usually forms
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: through particularly tumultuous childhoods, often with a lot of fear
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: and trauma. It stems from an erratic, incoherent relationship with
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: a baby's primary caregiver, and adults with this disorganized attachment
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: are likely to live with mental health problems or personality
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: disorders that prevent them from developing healthy relationships with others.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: This is pretty incommon. If you notice that the other
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: ones account for like ninety nine percent and then disorganized
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: as probably five percent or less. These people tend to
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: crave close relationships but push others away when shown attention.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Oh that sounds like borderline personnel disordered a little bit.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, very.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: Simp Do you remember I feel this almost feels like
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: one of those things where I'm making this up. Okay,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: so we're talking about secure attachment, and we're talking about
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: maybe they avoided an attachment. More specifically, there was a
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: study done which I think at this point I don't
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: know if the IRB the International Review Board would approve it,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: but it was with I believe, like baby monkeys, and
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: there was one monkey, so they had like the baby monkey,
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: the two baby monkeys, and they were put into a cage,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: and inside of the cage, I believe there was two
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: adult monkey like figures, so they weren't actually monkeys, but
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: they looked like monkeys. On one side was supposed to
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: be a monkey that was warm and cuddly and it
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: was made out of like a blanket or like soft material.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: On the other side was a metal one that was
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: not warm and cuddly, but had access to like a
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: bottle or where to get like food from. And I
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: think they found that the monkeys preferred the warm and
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: cuddly blanketed one instead of the other one, even though
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: the other one provided food and meant their basic needs.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: I will preface this, or I guess I'll continue this
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: with saying this was probably fucked up to do that
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: to the monkeys, and there probably was not like was
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: it worth it? To figure that out. But I feel
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: like this is coming back to me too of a
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: study similar to that, where it might have even seen
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: a video like in class or when I was in school.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know if I'm making I
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: feel like. I feel like it's a thing.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: And as soon as you said like a metal monkey,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: my first thought was brass monkey, that funky monkey, because
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: I'm constantly just cycling through songs in my head because
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: that's the way my brain works. But there was also
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: I remember reading a lot of studies on rats that
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: they did and that rat mothers that like lick their
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: babies show them physical affection. They tend to release more
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: oxytocin in the brain of the mother and the baby,
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: which is that connection and chemical that is released in
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: our brain. Like when humans hug and kiss each other,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: We're releasing a lot of oxytocin and that forms their
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: bonds and also predicts how successful they are with dealing
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: with stress later in life. So this stuff has been
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: shown in other animals. It's not just a uniquely human thing.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: And that's pretty fascinating that this is survival, this is evolution.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: There's an evolutionary advantage to having connections with our family
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: and our loved ones. It's crazy, that's so cool.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So we want.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: To talk a little bit about attachment styles and how
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: they predict the health of your relationships with family and
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: with your children, because oftentimes attachment styles are passed down
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: from generation to generation. If your parent has a specific
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: attachment style and shows you that models that to you,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: you are more likely to have that attachment style with
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: your parent and then subsequently with your children as well.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: It's easy to be able to say, like, well, why
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: don't people just provide their children with their emotional and
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: physical needs. It's like, well, sometimes people can't. Sometimes people
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: struggle sometimes that was never shown to them in their lives.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: And this generational aspect is this strong.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: I was just thinking that, like, maybe they're not able
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: to because of their own attachment that they are their
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: own experiences, you know, growing up as kids and then
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: becoming adults and having children of their own or being caregivers.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: So so I know that we got some of the
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: basics of attachment theory. Let's do some disgust and discussion questions. Anie,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: how is attachment theory important in the concept or in
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: the context of therapy.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. You know, we were talking about a
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: case before this, and it's been popping up in my
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: head as where we're talking through the episode of like
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: how this individual's attachment and relationship with their caregivers growing
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: up probably has a huge impact on where they're at
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: right now, and like how they are dealing with authority
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: or dealing with other adults and other relationships in their life.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: And so I think it could be really helpful. I
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: think if as long as you have someone who's kind
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: of understanding of attachment styles and how that could play
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: and not just like the pop psychology stuff we see
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: on social media, I think it's really important. It can
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: be really helpful. What do you think.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of times your therapist is the
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: one who can reshape your attachment style. If your therapist
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: is someone there for you all the time, and you're
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: not worried about your therapist leaving and you feel like
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: you can really trust them and talk with them, that
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: can help you shift that attachment style to a more
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: secure attachment. That's a big part of the concepts of
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: why therapy works, because almost all types of therapy work.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: They all do something, especially if you give them enough time.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Some might work a little bit sooner than others. But
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: the main reason why we think that therapy works is
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: because you're developing an attachment with your therapist. You're learning
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: how to connect with other people, how to trust other people,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: how to trust other people with your information, your deepest,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: darkest thoughts, and then you can start to use that
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: secure attachment with your therapist to other relationships in your
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: life once you have a good, secure attachment with that therapist.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: So that is such an important thing, and it's so
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: sad to me that some people in their lives don't
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: have a secure attachment. They don't have someone that they
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: could feel like they can really trust until they finally
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: get that therapist hopefully. So it's good that there's hope,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: but sad that, you know a lot of people don't
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: have that.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: What about with We've talked about it a little bit,
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: but any other examples that you can think of attachment styles,
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: attachment theory in popular culture?
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: So, my wife and I have just been on a
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: real kick of reality dating show Love Island, Love is Blind,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: and I can't do it anymore. It's driving me absolutely crazy.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: I told her, I was like, we gotta watch anything else, please,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: But I hear this line a lot in those types
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: of shows, and it just happened in Again and Love
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: is Blind season seven, the most recent one, where I
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: can't even remember which couple it was, but someone said,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: I feel myself being able to open up to you
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: and it's terrifying, And I thought that was perfect. That
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: is like the perfect line for someone with an avoidant
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: attachment disorder. They want that connection, but they're so afraid
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: of that connection. They're so afraid of the vulnerability it
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: takes to attach and connect with someone like that that
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: it puts them off, It scares them, it makes them
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: shy away, and boy, it makes for excellent television because
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: it's like, well, they won't they Will they be able
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: to overcome this? Will they be able to actually trust
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: each other?
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: You remember shows like Next or Room Raiders or like
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: Parental Control those days, yeah, back in the.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Day, oh the MTV ones and pH one.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah yeah.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: And now we have the Golden Bachelor, and now I.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: Have the Golden Bachelor.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: If you don't mind sharing, what attachment style do you
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: think you have it? In any examples you can give me.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: I was like scrolling back, it was like fuck uh,
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Man, this has made me think I
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: feel like I am someone who needs some reassurance. But
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm someone who needs a lot
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: of reassurance or just like some here or there. I'm
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: definitely also some and not just like in my relationship
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: or other like friendships and stuff, but also like reassurance
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: like at work sometimes like making sure that I not
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: that I need to be told that I'm doing a
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: great job all the time, but just like reassurance that
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: like am I doing things I don't know? I feel
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: like that's that m the one thing I'm hung up on.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Other than that, I feel fairly confident that I'm in
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: the fifty eight percent with a secure attachment. I just
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: think of like these really long relationships and friendships and
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: stuff that I've had over the years and connections that
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: I've built, and feeling pretty pretty secure most of the time.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: But honestly, yeah, I think the reassurance part is one
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: that I think is really sticking out to me. And
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: I can't remember if someone can have a secure anxious
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: style or like what that like little I'm trying to think.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: I swear I can like picture a textbook in my
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: head from like undergrad of like all the secure all
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: the attachment styles and stuff. But yeah, I'm probably somewhere
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: in there, probably more to the secure side. Actually, Like
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: the last point that you made says, just because someone's
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: secure attachment doesn't mean everything is smooth saliente. So yeah,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: I consider.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: And yes there are four like big broad main categories,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: but yeah, it's somewhat of a spectrum. No one's all
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: one thing or all the other, especially in like a
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: work setting. I just like to know that I'm doing right, Like,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: especially if I don't get any feedback for months, I'm like,
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: am I doing the right thing? Am not doing the
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: right thing? It's like it's hard to know unless someone tells.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: You, Yeah, what about you? Have you thought about it?
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm secure attachment, you know. Thinking
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: about my childhood, I don't think there was ever a
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: time in my life where I didn't or where I
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: ever had to question the love for my parents.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: They were always there for me, which I think also
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: brings up another really good point of like privilege, because
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: we think of privilege a lot of times from a
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: socioeconomic standpoint, like how much money and opportunities you had.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: But also I think there's emotional privilege how much your
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: parents were able to invest in your life and your learning,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: in your relationship and your connection, because that sets you
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: up with all the rest of the relationships for the
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: rest of your life. And I feel incredibly privileged for
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: the parents that I was given. And i know I've
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: said it many times before, but I'm just so lucky
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: and I always just want That's one of the reasons
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: I like being in psychiatry is because I want to
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: help people heal from a lot of the generational trauma
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: that they've been through so that they can make a
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: world for their children like I had. That's kind of
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: like my big goal.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know when you mentioned never having to worry
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: about being cared for and needs men and stuff as
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: a child, I think that's where I'm That makes me
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: more lean to the secure side because the same thing.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Very privileged to be on that end of the spectrum
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: where it's not something that I ever really had to
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: worry about, and definitely has played a positive impact to
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: where I am today.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: And you know, I've met your parents. They're incredibly loving people.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: It's just so cool. It's fun to meet your friend's
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: parents and be like, oh, I can see why they
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: are the way that they are.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: And I think as adults it's a little cooler like
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: when you're like, yeah, middle school, in high school, it's
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: like hey, but then like as an adult's you can
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: actually like talk to them, which I think is cool.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: People are curious about their attachment style. What recommendations do
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: we have? How do they go about researching this stuff?
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: Talking about these things?
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: TikTok search attachment style? I think one. I mean, we
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: got a lot of our info from the Cleveland Clinic.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: I think any type of like trusted medical, psychiatric psychology information,
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: whether it's like the American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association,
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: the American Counseling Association, any of those places, the National
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Institute of Health, all those things, SAMSA, the some substance,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: all those places I think are helpful therapy for sure.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: This episode is hopefully a good start, especially if you're curious.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: But that's what I got. What do you think?
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Well, from a psychiatric standpoint, medicines don't really help this one. Yeah,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: attachment style isn't really made any better by medicine, So
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: this one's kind of on personal growth, self discovery, trying
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: to experience packing your childhood and trying to figure out
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: where you land and maybe if you feel like you
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: are landing more in the insecure attachment style, it may
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: be time to reach out to a therapist and start
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: working on these things.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you got for us for celebrities before
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: we close this one out?
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: You know, like I always say, some topics are like
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: lists and listen list of celebrities, some are none whatsoever.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: I found one person that has actually come out and
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: talked about their specific attachment style, and that is the
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: beautiful Emily Redikowski, who said that it was an interview
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: once where she said that therapy was actually really helpful
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: for her in overcoming that fear of abandonment, which sounds
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: along the lines of that anxious attachment style, and she
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: also studied attachment and her attachment style. I thought it
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: was cool that she was willing to open up and
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: talk about how therapy and learning about attachment theory helped
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: her change her life.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Dope, Well, thank you all for listening. We're really excited
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: for our next episode. We have a really cool guest
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: coming on. We're excited to share that with you. We'll
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: give you more information as we get closer. Shout out
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: to Justin for this cool topic that we could talk about.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Really made me think about myself. But I think O
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Brawl is a lot of great information. We appreciate you
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: all for listening Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you listen to
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: your podcast, we are there and available. Feel free to like, share, subscribe,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: show it to your friends, send it to somebody, leave
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: us a five star review. You can also leave us
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: a comment. Someone left the comment the other day, I
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: was going to ask you about this Justin on Spotify
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: that they said that I had an L take on
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Mariah Carey's album and I can't remember exactly what I said,
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: but it was probably something along the lines of saying
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: that the emancipation of Mimi that was like her best album.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: And I don't know if that's an L take.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Someone to comment.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: Shout out to them. I love it. I'll take it,
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: but leave us a comment, leave us a five star review.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: We're here for We appreciate you all. We've started to
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: show up on some charts a little more frequently recently,
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: so that's been pretty cool. Whether it's Chile, New Zealand, Australia.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: Shout out to everyone listening. We appreciate you all on
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: social media at Millennia MH That's TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: and our website MILLENNIAIMH dot com. Thank you again for
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: listening and make sure to take care of all mentals.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: Viva Chile.