Latest / 8 Years To Live / The Stories We Learn About Ourselves | Whitney Richardson
Transcript
- 8YearsToLive Episode13 Audio: Every person has a story. Some shape us, some break us, and some help us heal. Join Sisters Kim and Bibi as they explore mental health, trauma, relationships, and personal growth through honest conversations, lived experiences, and professional insights. Because understanding your story can change the way you live it. This is Eight Years to Live. I have gone into a coma. I would just say. Mario Shriver. Yes. Yes. Why do we have so many nicknames for each other? It's a good question. Because medical trauma is one of the most under recognized forms of trauma. Who are you gonna talk to when I die? He's already telling you you've got eight years slip. Mao Kim WWW. I am recording a podcast in Las Vegas. Let's see, W1W is what are you doing? Recording the podcast. Where are you at? Las Vegas. And who am I with? I'm with you, and from what I understand, we've got a special guest. We sure do. So I am also at home. You can see the side that looks very neat. That side is a mess. I'm reporting a podcast with a very dear friend and you and Ruben's downstairs. I don't know what he's doing, probably just chilling. So we wanna welcome this person that has so dearly affected my life. I have known this is Whitney Richardson. We just realized I've known her since she was ten. Ten years old. gosh. Yes. So that would have made me twelve. I met her sister in junior high. Also phenomenal gal. Awesome. And so Whitney and I somehow reconnected probably a couple of years ago. Immediately I was like, my gosh, this girl gets it. And I told you, Mao. I called you I'm like, This girl I just wanna know more about her. Mike everything I'm very curious about her life, about who she is. She's so cool. Just very, very like thought provoking for me. So she has her own podcast called The Nativist. Incredible. I've listened to so many episodes. So cool, very informative, very compassionate person, very sweet. Very smart. There's so much I could say about you, Whitney. So without further ado, Whitney Richardson, welcome. back onto both of you because those are such apt descriptors for both of you. So I will I will receive it. I will do my best because we're working on that and I appreciate that. Thank you. Truly honored truly truly sincerely honored to be here because I admire both of you so much for those reasons. So thank you for letting me be here. Thank you for being here. And Whitney, yeah, I've never met you. I've heard so many things about you. When the two of you reconnected and I think maybe you went for a walk or something, I thought, I wanna be in on that walk. Like she walked in on that walk. Yes. Yes. Yes. So when she when BB said, Hey, you know what about having Whitney on the show? I thought, my gosh, absolutely, yes. So I love that we're in the same mental health space of just wanting to normalize things and wanting to help people feel like you know I'm not alone. I've had those same thoughts. my gosh, I'm so glad that someone else is on that journey with me. And that we can help put words into what people are thinking and it might help some someone somewhere along the line. Yes, putting words to what people are thinking and feeling is transcendent. It is so powerful not only because Well A, that aspect of it, having the language to articulate and describe what you're feeling helps you further process it and understand it and work through it and manage it and work with it, not even just through it, but with it. But also feeling seen and heard, which is and I'm sure Mal, I'm so happy to connect with you. But I know I get that from Baby so extensively, and that means everything. Especially when you're in a shame spiral or you're talking about these taboo subjects that are just swallowed up in shame. When you're able to offset that with recognition and validity and feeling seen and heard, that right there lifts the burden from it, and all of a sudden it diffuses it and eases the sting, and all of a sudden it feels. bearable and that's what we can contribute to each other through podcasting and through sharing and like Bibi and I talked about on my podcast discernment comes into it so you don't have to offer your story necessarily to every person you meet. So you know there's an appropriate way and time to do it. But gosh how helpful I don't won't speak for you guys but how helpful have you found it when you've heard people Talk about things, even if it doesn't directly relate to you, even them just daring to talk about it, because maybe it resonates because it affects someone you know and someone you love and then you're like, it helps you understand and then it helps you feel seen and it just helps you not feel like such a monster or a Yes. Somebody who's ostracized, yeah. Like you just feel seen and heard. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Totally. Huge difference. So I thought that when we were when you were recording and you had me on your podcast. my goodness. If people haven't heard that episode, I was blown away at your honesty, at your vulnerability. And I mentioned I like, my gosh, we're recording right now and you're just offering where you're at. And I I true I value that and I I don't take that lightly that you open up because I've I told you for me it's hard to do that in the moment I'm like you that's the power of you because you create such a safe space because quite honestly and I do try to be as transparent honest and I you know share things That go on, but I think just that aura that you emanate creates that sense of safety that I feel that I can open up too. Mm-hmm. Because as open as I do try to be, and I was talking to my sister about this the other day, and she's like, Yeah, you also talk around it though a lot. And you also dance around it too. And you joke about it, like, Yes, I do, and I I do, and I sensed I do, and I recognized I do, and I know. Damn well I do that. And so speaking directly still is looking into the sun and it still feels a little daunting. And so thank you for being that safe space. And that's just what you do, and I'm just forever grateful. And you reach out and you just are there and such a constant presence that carries more weight than. I will say then you know and I know that you have your own experience you can draw from that you can know just how valuable that is, but still from my end it just means everything, especially because I haven't really opened up that much even to the people closest to me, like my sister knows, mm-hmm, the family knows, but even have a really close friend and she knows but sh you know the extent of it like really what I'm into right now and you're the one who has shown up and I I haven't really had that in my life and it's meant so much. So thank you. I don't even know if I can respond to that. This is very timely. I will cry. Very timely. Thank you. Thank you. That means the world. I really appreciate it. I strive to be a safe space for people. So when it's received that way, it means the world. Thank you. And you're brilliant at how you do it because you do it so beautifully how you should do it. Mal, I'm sure you can speak to this too, that this is such a good practice. And I know this and I don't always do this because it takes some extra bandwidth where it's not just a checking in, how are you? How are you today? I love how you do it and I'm gonna take a quote quick break. I love how you do it because it's just Thought of something funny, you'll share a meme. You will, hey, just a random question. But that's your checking in, and I recognize that's your checking in, and I know exactly what you're doing, and I appreciate it so much because that's what it is. You're just letting me know, hey, thinking of you. I'm here. And it's like just in case, like you're down in it too. Like I'm trying to keep you out of that whatever possible spiral you could be into or whatever. You know what you're doing. and you do it masterfully and thank you. Thank you that go so far. So that's such an inspiration and aspiration for people for just checking in on your friends and again it's not often it's more effective wouldn't you say Mao when it's not just, Hey, how are you? How you doing today? It's hey, just thinking of you. Or I mean it's showing the like little things or the random questions and what what's your typical day like? What's your schedule like? Things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. That's awesome. Well, I'm just gonna go ahead and ask you, we have a few questions and Mao and I both know we don't We never get through them all. We have questions. We're like, well, we'll start here. I was reading the first yes, I was reading the first question and I tell Mao, I'm like, there's like ten questions in this first question, so I don't really know what to ask. So I just kind of I'm gonna put my own my own twist into it. Okay, so we've talked a lot about what you're going through, but we haven't named it. So my question for you is So do you wanna tell us just a brief overview of what you're going through and then I can ask the question to kind of dig into that? Sure, yeah. So I have had a history of eating disorders and I will I guess preface with saying I was Late in life diagnosed with ADHD, so I was about twenty-five, rejected the diagnosis outright because I was operating under the conventional understanding of what ADHD is. You know, as our generation understood it to be. Like I wasn't a hyper kid and I got straight A's. And I was a line tower and rule follower to the max. Gotta love that masking. And so I was like, that defies everything I understand about ADHD. Absolutely not. And so I was like, okay, yeah, that's cute. That's a cute thought when my doctor said that, but I d dismissed it. And then another doctor completely unrelated a year or two later was like, Yeah, the minute I met you, I knew ADHD. I'm like, okay, I'm sorry for this. And I mean I trusted the first doctor too, but especially this next doctor. And so I looked into it and then I remember crying because again those idiot idiosyncrasies all of a sudden made sense and I was like, and I felt seen and I'm like, yeah, it's okay. I do pace when I listen, and I do have to always be coloring or doing something minor to so I can focus and just all those little things that felt so specific to me. And so all of a sudden it just felt like I could understand myself. And so I had that ADHD diagnosis and then I studied psychology in college, initially majored, then minored in it. And so and I since that I had O C D and then the more I understood, I was like, okay, yeah, I think I'm pretty sure I do. Wasn't officially diagnosed until a week or two ago. And so ADHD, generalized anxiety and what else? O C D. And so and as we talked about, O C D isn't just you're very particular, that's a completely that's separate. So O C D is you have the compulsions and you have the intrusive thoughts. So, all of that in the mix, and you know that also co-happens with eating disorders and addiction and addictive personalities and extreme personalities, and so that's exactly what I have. And so that's manifested and presented as orthorexia and disordered eating and excessive. working out and so through the years I'll vacillate, go back and forth and I've done outpatient treatment for eating disorders, but still I I lapsed and so that's back where I am. You know, when you think when you feel like other aspects of your life are out of control, that's a way to try to emotionally regulate and a way to try to control your life. And there are so many aspects of that too and contributing factors because you know you have the aesthetic part of it where you're praised in the society we live, we're praised to look a certain way. And so that comes into it. And when you when you start to look a certain way, it's fueled by people's praise and comments. And so that just kind of confirms, this is what I need to look like. I need to continue this. that happens and that still feeds and even intellectually know that's happening still somatically I still respond to that. And it's really hard to let that go. So I'll just say that's what I'm dealing with. So I've relapsed back into disordered eating and excessive working out. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So the question is that's a lot. That's a lot of a lot to be going through mentally, a lot to process, a lot to understand. What does what's it gonna look like to treat it? And that's a big question that I don't think can be answered like in with one specific thing, like, here's here's how you're gonna solve this. So as when you got the diagnosis, what did you know would be the next step? Or what did your therapist or your doctor what do you do? Well, I'm beaming BB because that was the big question. And like I had said before, I had done outpatient treatment. helped somewhat, but it didn't quite stick, and I don't feel like it fully resolved it. And as I'm sure you've seen Matt, like when you I mean, therapy is always well, I won't say always, you have to find something you're compatible with, and there are a lot of factors there. But Yes, it did help and it helped to address the surface issues and to you know, I had worked with a nutritionist and a therapist and it just didn't quite address the underlying issues. It did tangentially and somewhat, but not quite. And so that was my lingering question, and especially now when I recommitted to going back to specifically addressing this. That was my question. I was like, I I know I live in this world. I've been a self-reflector my whole life. I love this world. I eat it up. And that's one of the reasons why I love our conversations, BB, because you do too, and we have this insatiable curiosity. And that's why I'm so excited to connect with you, Mal. And I'm so familiar, and I know what makes people tick, and I just get it, and I get people, and I get myself. Not to say that I'm not constantly discovering things about myself, but all to say there was still such a gap between, okay, I know where I am, and I know where I need to be, and I know theoretically how to go about it, I know intellectually, I know essentially what needs to happen, but practically day-to-day. what does that look like? What does that look like? And even like I'm I'm working through with a therapist through work and she's great too, but still like I and I pose this to her and I still wasn't quite getting what I was needing. And I was trying to articulate it as clear clearly as possible. I still wasn't quite getting it. And so I started with this new therapist and she works with my sister. And my sister's like, you guys would get each other and I really think you would understand. And I referenced her on my podcast with you, BB, because I don't think ever before I've ever been able to find a practitioner, a healthcare provider, whether for just my regular health or mental health practitioner. that I could fully trust and that I could fully surrender to and you and I talked about just how delicious relieving that sounds. Mm-hmm. And because and I don't want this to come across as arrogant, but what drove me to having to take my healthcare into my own hands, mental health and physical health, was I wasn't getting what I needed. And we're just naturally curious people, I think all three of us. And so that drives a lot of it too. But I would have to educate myself because I wasn't getting what I needed. And so I, you know, when you learn so much about it and then you go to a healthcare practitioner provider and they can't meet you where you are and it's like they stopped their training at med school and then they kind of just called it good. And so then it's like, well then I have to juggle all of that and I have to translate what you're saying and fill in all the gaps and I don't feel like I can fully trust you because I feel like you d you're not even up on the latest research even from ten years ago, five years ago. And I'm telling you these things and you're not even fully aware of the full mind-body connection. and how this affects this and this and this. And then it's just like, okay, so then I'm gonna take what you're getting me with a grain of salt. And I feel like I cannot fully surrender to you. And so, and I swear I'm gonna land on this plane. And so with the new therapist for the first time. Like even I just mentioned other conditions that might be seemingly unrelated, but she immediately jumped on it. She's like, I know your high level of histamine is your MCAS, mast cell histamine like activation syndrome. Yeah, I know exactly how that plays into the AHD and the mental health and all of that, and just how all of that it's so connected and just new. And she She was able to fill in those gaps. I could tell. And so that right there I knew I could trust her. And that meant everything to me. And then I knew that I could fully surrender. And so then I had my first appointment last session. This week. And so I sat down and I was so anxious because that's exactly what I needed is I'm like, okay, I need the steps. I need to know exactly what this treatment protocol is gonna look like. And she addressed that right off the bat and she's like, Your prefrontal cortex, especially because I live in my brain and I live in that processing area. You know, like you have that emotional basic that primordial brain like she's like you're gonna need you're gonna want the tools you're gonna want all of that but we're gonna take it back to the basics because we have to rebuild that foundation and she's like she provided two analogies and I'll offer one of them. it's like swimming and she's like you've been swimming for years and years and years you know how to swim. We're gonna go back to swim class and we're gonna gather like everybody in the class we're not gonna be swimming this first day in these first sessions. We're gonna share Our names. We're gonna go around and share a fun fact. And she's like, You're gonna get and Mao's like, Yeah, I know. We're gonna share our names and we're gonna share a fun fact about ourselves, and you're gonna get so frustrated and so anxious and antsy to get to the next step because we want to get next step. And she's like, But we need to build that foundation, and it's not even just building trust in her, but it's just reorienting yourself essentially. And she's like, because we could keep building on what you're working with, and that's gonna be a shaky house of cards, because you have a shaky foundation. And that made sense, and it just so immediately spoke to my question of what are we doing? And I just felt like I could fully it just strengthened my trust in her because I'm like, she has a vision and she knows what she's doing. And top therapy is so important too, but I needed to feel like they had a clear directive and they knew what they were doing and she had that and that was everything. So I'm like, yes, I'm gonna be frustrated as shit. I know I am. I'm on board, bring it on, let's do this. I just needed to know that there was a rhyme and a reason to this. That was the longest answer on earth to your question. I love it. So many good things. So so many good things. I was like, should I just start writing my questions down? Because I wanna tr you know, go down this trail at every single sentence. So a few things came up I thought, like, if we if I would have not had as much mental health training and or personal therapy myself, how would I better understand like How does O C D show up in you? Because O C D is like, I've got O C D, it's my O C D it's my ADHD, you know, that and then you threw one that I was not aware of, orthorexia, and I'm like, what? You know, so all these things. That's number one. And then number two, I just wanted to validate and this is kind of how we started the podcast, that medical trauma. where doctors may not know what they're talking about, so they dismiss you. That's not happening. This is what we're gonna do. You know more than them, so now we're gonna pretend like, you know, nope. Well and the gaslighting that happens within the medical trauma, all you're just like, I just want to feel better and I know that what you're saying isn't addressing what I'm what's happening in me. And so you knew to just continue to advocate for yourself. So many people don't know to do that. But you said, you know what, you're not you don't know. I'm gonna go seek somebody else. And then the reason why this person resonated with you is she slowed you way down. You're like running, running, running, and she's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, come on back. We're gonna sit here, we're gonna do stretches before we even take off running. Because you're just gonna get hurt. So those were my thoughts. that's exactly what she did. That's exactly what I needed, and that's exactly what she did. That's why you're so good, Mel, you get it. You get it. Thank you. So if we rewind just a little bit, tell me how does OCD, you know, because OC like you've been diagnosed with OCD, so this isn't just the it's my OCD. You're like, okay, how does that show up in your life? We'll start with that one first. So I've always had compulsions and they change flavor depending on the era in my life. for example some of the compulsions I would have is I would have to my dad still teases me and it's lighthearted and I don't take it offensively but when the clock would strike six six clock on the dot on the dot on the dot on the dot and I'd have to repeat it six times or there'd be certain things and certain routines and rituals I would have to do and they show up in my life and like my current doan I Rituals that I have to do. So I have to do my lymphatic drainage massage every day. I have to do five minutes of and it creeps, and you get that creep. I have to do the five minutes and then it starts to morph into more longer of like this squat progression and then like a stretch sequence, then squat progression, and I have to do certain series of pistol squats every on every half hour and it just morphs and it starts from a a healthy place because it'll start from we know that sitting all day isn't great and you're supposed to move and you're supposed to move like every thirty minutes and so it starts innocently but I'll take them I'm like okay I see that innocent gesture move and then I'll just I'll completely like OCD it, OCD if it. And then I need to do it. And then I'll just can progressively intensify it. So that's essentially what that usually looks like. And then it just other little quirks and things that I have to do. And so to answer your question directly, just compulsions that I have that I have to do daily. and that just get out of hand and then they start to spin out of control. And I can't rest easily and I can't go about my day and I'm very uneasy on edge if I don't do them. And it's just a way also to regulate my emotions. And then And I think a lot more people, well I won't speak for everybody, but intrusive thoughts too. And I I don't have those necessarily as much. I those pop up here and there, where it's like what if I just swerved into oncoming traffic? Or what if I like I'll be talking to somebody and what if I just reached out and like just really uncomfortable and this is even really uncomfortable to say and this is why it's like really hard to talk about because there's so much shame there and it's like you're worried about being misperceived because you're like I would never act on it, and that's when you know it's truly OCD and it's truly an intrusive thought because you wouldn't act on it. And you're so worried that you would, and that right there is your safeguard against it. But I'll be talking somebody I'm not even attracted to and I'm like what if I just reached over and kissed them on the mouth and that's it just feels so icky and inappropriate and you're just like that doesn't even feel like something I want to do But that thought comes unbidden. And so just things like that. And what if I did this? Or what if and I know that there's like a term for it, so it's not just O C D specific, but the call of the void, like you're standing on the edge of something like tall something, and you're like, what if I just jumped over the edge? What if I just did that? So intrusive thoughts like that and yeah, just compulsions. And Malcolm. Are the compulsions? go ahead. well, my question was if for the compulsions, like if you're not doing the compulsion, or if for example, if you don't do, you know, the stretches that stu start out, you know, as a good thing, now I it's stretched out, now I have to do this. Or even like you said, you know, when you were a little girl, if I don't say, you know, this six times or seven times or however many times, like, is it a an overwhelming Feeling? Are they thoughts? Is like urgency? my gosh, I gotta do it, I gotta do it. Because if I don't then what? Full body tension. So complete like emotional and somatic unease and anxiety and it will consume me. And so like before this, I have this, I have my little routines and my rituals. And so I knew that I had to sweep my kitchen because I do that on Saturdays. And if I didn't do that before I sat down with you guys, that would be hanging over me. And I knew that I would need to do that and I wouldn't be able to fully be present and fully focused. And if I don't max out on my workouts that will hang over me and it'll be so heavy, it'll quite literally feel like it's dragging me down and I can't focus. It'll just hang over me. And so I can maybe have a conversation, but it's still weighing me down in the back of my mind and I'm just like, mm and so it's like full body tension and then full emotional and cognitive tension too. Mm-hmm. Ooh, even just like talking about it just so I'm like I can feel my heart race and I just get really anxious. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. So even just talking about it like starts to have the somatic reaction within your body. Yeah. And it's like, how am I gonna tell my body, it's like it's okay. Like I just thought about it, but I don't need to really fully engage. Even just like doing that's like okay. But then somebody's like, but no, I can't I ha ha ha ha I gotta Yeah. Yes, hundred percent. And I've been working Wow my therapist I worked through through work and Again, love the thought. I'm gonna try. But it's just I mean it's a process and I gotta I gotta give myself grace to be gentle with myself, but I was really gonna focus on you guys this week to only work out for a half hour and then to sit in those feelings of discomfort that arise when I don't exceed the hour or the half hour or when I don't go the full distance and I just It just takes over. It takes over. And you know, I know that what I'm doing isn't healthy and it's not serving me. And I know 'cause I know fitness and I know muscle growth and I know physiology. And I'm like this is just serving me. This is actually Counter this is undoing a lot of my effort. So if I really wanted to build muscle, if I really wanted to be the fittest and the healthiest, I would stop because I've already reached that threshold for muscle growth. Now I'm getting into where I'm just exhausting my body and that's gonna undo the muscle building and the muscle growth and the fitness benefits that I just worked so hard to achieve in that 30 minutes. And just I know that this isn't healthy for me to do, but I'm still gonna do it. And I'm still gonna keep on doing it because it doesn't sit right with me unless I don't. And so it's like that constant tension between what you know to be right and healthy and the optimum way to do it, and then just your body's like, Yeah, but you know, we gotta do it, we gotta do it this way. And I like I want to say, Mao and I are both nodding, and I'm sure people that listen will be like, my gosh, thank you.' So saying out loud those intrusive thoughts, as you're saying them, I'm like, I've totally thought that. I've totally thought like what my gosh. Like, especially the what is it called when you betray your own body all the time. We're on a mountain. I'm like, what would happen if I just threw myself off? Or like I don't know if I trust myself to stand here. What if I just like throw myself? And I sometimes will laugh and I'll tell, like, if I'm with my sisters, I'm like, my gosh, what if I throw myself off this? I actually had this conversation with a couple of friends. You might remember them, Kelsey and Lisa from Highland. Anyway, we talked about this. One friend was like, I have never thought that. Us two were like, I think this all the time. Like there's an oncoming car and I'm like, what if I just at the right time stand in front of it? Yes. I'm not gonna do it. No. I know I'm not gonna do it. Yeah. But I think that. Or the kissing thing. What if I just grab this person's face and kiss them? Yeah. I've never done that, but I've those thoughts definitely crossed my mind. Yes. And I n from what I know or what I've heard with O C D it's specific to aggressive sexual thoughts and or harmful thoughts, whether to yourself or to others. And I think I've never been diagnosed, but what you're saying, I do my checks all the time, like I have patterns I do on my fingers. And then if I don't complete it, there's an unease in my body. I'm like, I just have to do it. And Ruben will ask me, like, what are you doing? I'm like, I I just have to get over it. Let me just do my thing. Okay, I'm done. Yes. No, but you see this, I remember talking about this with you and the somatic symmetry too and I think that's part of it. I think you said you do it too, yes. So I do want to go back to how you frame the betraying your body, but the somatic symmetry where you do something on one side, you have to do it on the other. Yes, you too. Yes. you get it girl. Mal you too? Yes. Well I do it I think on my feet mainly. So like if I step on something now I have to find to step on the other with the in the same area of my foot. So it's like, why am I feeling, you know, I'm stepping on a crack, break my mother's back, saying as a kid. But it's like, okay, why? And I can see how that can develop into, okay, I've done it with one foot. Now I have to give in to the urge of stepping onto the other foot because if I don't, now I can't handle the unease. And like you said, you know, your brain knows it, but th your body doesn't know it. So then your body just takes over and it's like, you know, we tell ourselves, like, I know I shouldn't be thinking this, you know, my mind says this, but my heart says this, you know, and then creating that, you know, connection between the two can be like, Okay, I've stepped on it. Okay, I don't have to step on it. But to get there takes time and like you said, you know, I'm gonna try to sit in this unease. Okay, today I sat in it with for one minute. Okay, great. Mm-hmm. Okay, now today's gonna be two minutes. Okay. You know, and just kind of sit in that. But it's so much easier if someone's with you in the unease to be that witness. Right? Because if your therapist says this is your homework and this is what you're gonna do, thank you. I'm gonna go ahead and try that and I lasted ten seconds. And about ten seconds more than I was yesterday. But to have somebody there's like and just be like, my gosh, this is so overwhelming and I just really, really wanna do this and you know, and to have a person just be with you and not try to correct you or fix you or telling you that you're wrong or just whatever can it can be such a game changer. It really can and I'm glad you said that. And I know truly I sense and I talk with my sister about this too that in the past, like when I did my outpatient treatment for eating disorder and excessive working out I went and moved in with my parents for a time because you need that witnessing and that monitoring in a way. And even just even if it's just that presence there, like you would send, that's again why BB's text and just just knowing that somebody is aware of you helps so much too. Because there's that you're not being judged. And then the accountability and you don't feel judged, that's major. And especially because I feel or I live alone. So it's so easy. And like Baby and I have talked about yeah, I mean you can hide it too or you think you can hide it. But There's a lot of slick moves you're doing on the side to try to hide your behaviors, but when it's you just on your own, game on. Like you can do all the things and nobody's gonna stop you. And so I've tried to be as transparent as possible. But again, like you had said, Matt, like to have somebody there helps so much. And I love how you had suggested just okay, so the first let's try incrementally just living in that discomfort for a minute, and then tomorrow's gonna be two minutes, and then just easing it. it and if you don't mind and I know that we're coming up on time but I love how you frame that BB just a light went off when you had said betraying your body because and I think you said it in the same vein it was a segue from disassociation and disembodiment because that's something that and for multiple reasons that's not a symptom or I'd say a driver of of this behavior of disembodiment and you're just so used to for and there are so many reasons you're so used to overriding your body's signals and so when you disconnect your body that's when you're able to really this behavior is able to flourish because you're not listening to your body's signals anymore. And we have our own reasons for why we've disengaged and like disconnected from our bodies. And then going back to the superstitions, and like all three of us have done the we have the somatic symmetry. But even if people are feeling like, okay, I can't quite relate to some of those intrusive thoughts or the somatic symmetry, superstitions, and that's why like this relates to most, if not all, of us, and addiction touches all of us, directly or indirectly, but even just like the superstitions, man. Like we have superstitions that don't make any sense. But so many people like they're spiritual. Teams, they are convinced, even if it logically doesn't make sense, that they sure as heck have to wear those yellow socks so their team will win, or they have their other superstitions, and that's just a human condition that I think so many of us can relate to. Whether or not you've been diagnosed with OCD, and that's that's not OCD, but just how it can, there's a spectrum and how it can affect. And so I think that helps us relate to one another, and that's right. entry point into connecting to each other where it's like okay I get it and I I experience that in a thing in a certain way and we can empathize with each other and that can I think offset some of the shame. Mm-hmm. I love that you said superstitions. I would never really thought about it that way. If someone asked me are you superstitious I would have said no. But I do do that. I think because When I did this last time, this happened, so I'm gonna do it again. Whether it's conscious or subconscious, if our brains have a like a way of finding patterns. So then it'll build. I did this and this. last time I had to do these five things. Okay, last time I had to do this, and it can escalate so easily into the rituals. So easily. And because we're wired for control. We need to control. We're wired For certainty, we find comfort. Humans find comfort and certainty. That's why we love well, I mean, this opens a whole other conversation. Conspiracy theories and just needing certainty and the binary thinking and black and white thinking because we need that certainty. It's far too uncomfortable to know that threats could come at any way at us, and we just need to know this then this. This happens, then this happens. That happened to that person because they were a bad person because they did that. So if I'm Good person, I follow all the rules, or I do this and I do my ritual, then this will happen and I can control it. It is so scary to think that the world is uncontrollable. Because then how it off and ward off those threats. So scary. And so that's our way of controlling it. Whether or not I think in this heightened environment that we live in. I think anxiety just thrives too. And so I think more and more people are affected by it. And so I think that speaks to superstitions or at least the need for control, you know? Yes, yes. Ubiquitous, they're all over the place. And calling it what it is. I think that's what I like. Like, is it superstitious? Yes. Would I have said I was superstitious? No. I mean like I don't believe in That's not gonna happen. That doesn't make sense. So I love that you're calling it what it is. And that it's you know, we're wired for these things like we need to know what's gonna happen next, you know, we're wired for certainty because ultimately we're wired, our brain's number one job is for survival. Yes. And so I need to find these patterns to make sure that I am ahead that I'm gonna survive this one thing and if it feels similar to a situation when I you know, as a child where I thought that I wasn't gonna survive because as kids, you know, we think that. Now the minds, you know, put all these memories together and now we're in this situation that feels similar. my gosh, I know that last time I did these things and that feeling of unease or whatever, you know, helped me. I'm gonna continue to do that, like you said, BB, right? And now we've done all these things so that I can survive. Our brain's just like, What can I do to survive? I'm gonna do this and then this and then this and and then I'm gonna be good because I know I'm gonna survive. Just stay alive. That's crazy. So I did wanna bring this up because I know Whitney, we talked about this right before the podcast, how when someone calls you names when someone says things to you about you that are hurtful, it has a lasting effect. Even if it's said once, twice, like whatever, it it holds on to you or you hold on to it. So I was listening to your podcast, when you were with your sister and you mentioned you said a grandfather, is that right? Okay. would call you the devil. Yes. And how that has impacted and affected a lot of what you're currently going through. Yes. So my question I wanted to ask how old were you when he would say these things to you? I just want people to understand, myself included, what I say affects people. And what is said to us affects us. So if you can I don't know, just tell us about that. Such an important reminder. I was about five Because my parents, my grandparents would babysit my cousin and I. And so mm, my cousin is a crucial part of this story too. So my grandfather would tease us and he would call her an angel and me the devil. And she would definitely get preferential treatment. And So I internalized that and I interpreted that as you know, as a ki as kids tend to do, they'll internalize it because it's far safer to view themselves as the problem than to think that their caregiver who's providing their safety is the problem. Yeah. And so I accepted that and I received that as okay. I'm unlovable because it's one thing, and if my cousin wasn't there, I don't think he would carry quite the same weight. But when I'm compared to her, and okay, so he's capable of love and he's capable of viewing somebody as worthy, I just am not meeting that standard for some reason. I don't know why, but I'm not. So that feels inherent. And so she's She's worthy of love. I'm not worthy of love. And that would he'd he'd call me the devil or he'd say certain things and just constantly just bash me. And I didn't recognize it for what it was. I didn't have the language. And I remember even my sister would recognize it. She's like, he just was relentless with you. And he'd just laugh and laugh and laugh. You know, and then just if I felt affected by it, you know, I'd just be dismissed as being too sensitive. And I remember my grandma would see it and should be sticks and stones, Whitney sticks and stones 'cause I remember one time it really got to me, 'cause usually I could just you know, I just was too I didn't want to speak up and so I just I always just took it. I never stood up for myself. And it just wasn't until much, much later, I think just even within the last five years I was able to trace back so many feelings of unlovability. And then my relationship with my father too, and he was such a present loving dad in so many ways. But it just goes to show when we're all banged and bruised no matter what our parents no matter what childhood we've had. And so this isn't necessarily a testament to their present or the love they gave me, because they gave me a lot. But if you're not working on your stuff, that's filtering out and bleeding onto everybody else. Mm-hmm. And so that carried through with my relationship with my dad. And so a lot of what I received of the message I received was you're lovable in different ways. He wouldn't call me the devil. He was very careful about what he said, but there were things that he said and behaviors that he would give towards me and not towards my sister and just, you know, I was just early on just received the message, okay, I'm not the same as her, I'm too intense, I'm too I'm too much, and I'm just not as likable and I'm not as lovable. And it's that hurts. That hurts. I even had this conversation, I brought it up with him, I think it was Thanksgiving or Christmas this last year. And I brought it up to him and I'm like, I know you love me. And you show me a zillion different ways and he's just constantly doing things for me. And I'm like, I almost feel like you're trying to prove your love for me. And I I know you I love me and like we connect in so many ways that again, like his demons get in the way. And I just I'm like, I don't feel like you like me. Mm-hmm. Just the things that you say and I can I can tell. I don't feel like you like me. And there is a difference. There's a there's a differentiation there. And so I finally I never in my life had I ever had the guts to ever present that to him and I didn't he all but confirmed it. He's like, Well, yeah. Wow. was hard. And so luckily like I just I had to walk away after that. I was like the hell gut punch. And so then we reconvened and I was were able to talk through it and I was able to explain like I that's that was really hard to hear and I don't know if you meant to I appreciate the honesty and that's what I need. I don't need sugar coating. I need honesty and that's how we're gonna resolve or address this. But I'm like wha and I need to receive where we are and I need to just accept that. That's my role in this. I can't control him. I can only control my you know, I can only work on my side of it. But, you know, I just talked through him like I think that there are some things on both sides that we need to work through and again I've asked him before about going to therapy and I'm like, Are you open to that? And he said yes and he still he hasn't and he has his own his own journey. And he does I just appreciated him l afterwards like being able to talk more openly about it. But all that just goes to say that that's just created this feeling of unlovability that drives my behaviors. And so I have the O C D sure I have the neurodivergence and all that again there are multiple factors, but there's just this huge hole that I think many people can relate to for whatever reason, whatever your background is, you have this feeling and maybe your hole is a different shape and size and flavor. Mine is filling unlovable, and I think that's pretty common. And I just am constantly trying to prove my worth. Mm-hmm. And even knowing that, even knowing that's what I'm doing, that's a lifetime of it's so deeply baked in that it's not just okay, I understand that intellectually you have to know it and that's where the embodiment comes back into and trusting yourself and that's that's not easy to do. And it takes time and it takes grace and it takes gentleness. my gosh. Thank you for sharing that. Seriously, like that took so much courage. Thank you. And like I felt that pain of just that interaction, the current inter interaction as an adult. But then as a five year old, my gosh, like that brings tears to my eyes right now. The depth, like you said, this deep, deep well. that then got filled with other things that just deepened it is so heartbreaking and that helps to make sense of your story, right? To have that compassion. Like, it makes sense why I'm having these reactions. It makes sense why, you know, I want to do these things to make sure that I'm safe. Because a long time ago I learned that if I didn't, someone was gonna hurt me with their words and then I was gonna go into these shame spirals and I didn't know what to do as a kid and I just want to be loved. You just and you think of like people and they're and BB and I talked about on my podcast, we're just like little baby baby and like little witty. Just want to hug them and love them. Yes. And that's where, like, just combining these, that's where the labels and the words we use can carry such power because just in a throwaway comment, just one day a kid is shy or reserved, or they're not feeling well, they're just quiet that day. You label them shy, so often they will live into. that. And so growing up and even now, yes, and I find myself and I hate myself and I'm really trying to be kind to myself, a lot of times I would be unlikable, and I think a lot of that is is just you know like I'd be well so many reasons for it, I'd be irritable or I'd be hard to to be around so many times because I just felt unseen and unheard and that would translate into just certain problematic behaviors for so many different reasons. You know, if you're overstimulated the irritability and all that can come out. But also just okay, so that's my identity. I'm the unlovable one. I'm the unlikable one. I'm the difficult one. So you start to live the identity. Yes. You just think of Anybody who's listening to this can think of the labels that they accrued that they recruit through their lifetime that maybe didn't fit, but they've made them fit. And so I think it would serve all of us to go back and re examine them and then to maybe throw them away if they don't fit anymore. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. Mm-hmm. And I can't imagine just with you and your sister. It's hard to hide when there's two of you. I think with in my personal like perspective when I'm thinking about our childhood or my childhood, it was easier to hide with five. I can I am still labeled, but it's easier to be like, no, go ahead, look at them, don't look at me. But with two it's like even with your cousin, she's the good one, you're the bad one. And then with your sister She's more well received. She's well liked. You're not. You know, just so easy to be like, Well, it's gotta be one or the other. And I tend to have that thinking in some areas of life where I feel like I have to choose this is either good or bad. And then I have to remind myself, it doesn't have to be good or bad. Mm-hmm. I'm sure there's good and there's bad because things are nuanced. There are so many things that come into play with people, with lives, with activities, with things you like, just in general. Like that is thinking that is not healthy. It's either this or that. Doesn't have to be. So that's a message for parents, for ourselves, like you're not you're obviously not the bad one. First of all, you're amazing. And it may be hard to receive and now I'm understanding more why that's hard for you to receive. my gosh, Whitney, I just want to give you a hug right now. Yes. The love that I have for you. Thank you, thank you. I will listen to that so briefly. And that is so insightful because that's exactly what happened and I still and that's what even my parents would and my dad would say, like, they're your sisters more liked and your sisters more People just respond to her by and so I still carry that like, people just like her more and that's still there's such a deep insecurity there still. Mm-hmm. so thank you for recognizing that and seeing that and so reminding parents and just people in general to re mind each other that people are people and we're so complex and we contain multitudes. And I like to say like they're I mean, to each their own but there aren't necessarily good and bad people. We do good and bad things, you know? And just to understand that just There are reasons why we do what we're doing too, and so many times it's just our maladaptive behaviors or ways. We're just coping, man. We're trying to make it through the day because there are those little kids within us who are just desperate for love and recognition and attention and it just makes you want to just go hug everybody. Yes, yes. Yes, yes. And as I was describing you in the intro, I was trying to be very cautious. I want to be free with Mm, I don't wanna say it's complimenting. I just wanna be honest about my feelings towards you. I do I do wanna be careful when I said you're smart. I know that that can have it's weighty for you. you are smart. that's why you're so happy you have a podcast. You're so good. And I so with that I wanna say you're not just intellectual. You are intellectual. That's great. But you're smart. You have the capacity in your mind to love people. And to me that's more smart. That is more valuable than head knowledge. So take both, you're intellectual, you're smart, you're more than just what your brain what you think your brain can do intellectually. Mmm, thank you. takes a lot to to break through 'cause I felt s I felt so numbed and lately that I've finally been able to like find this emotional release. But I think with you, like when you 'Cause it just feels so seen by you. So thank you. 'cause usually like if people compliment me, there's like a numbness or like a you know, like a rejection. So get it. I think just because you just you're so safe that I'm able to receive it. So th that brought tears to my eyes. Thank you so much. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it. Thank you. So so good. We got to question number one. Good friend. Which just which just means we need to have you back because I do I do like for me as you were sharing your story of of your grandfather, to me like the well of love that I felt for you as I was thinking of you as a five year old and just wanting to go to you and hold you and not just say sticks and stones, but just, you know, tell the grandfather some really horrible words to protect you. Yeah. that was just my natural instinct because my instinct is to protect. And I felt that overwhelming sense of love and wanting to protect you and put you behind me and say, I don't think so. You know, this is not who she is. And she is a beautiful child that has nothing but happiness and joy to give. And that's what she's wanting, this love. And as you're standing behind me, you know that there's safety there. You know that I'm gonna protect you. And that somebody's there and that you're not in it alone. Because you have so so much so much within you that is just goodness and light and you even just wanting to share your story says who you are at your core. That you have this great capacity to love others, which means that you do have a great capacity to receive it. You're just looking for that door. Thank you for saying that because I think that's just like what like my child is just so desperate to see because I just felt so misperceived and just to know like my intentions are have always been to love. And I know it sometimes Like my behavior says otherwise where I could come across as like harsh or abrasive, but just I feel such a giant soul sigh of relief when somebody recognizes that all I'm trying to do is just love. Yes. And so on just means everything to me, like when that's scene. So thank you. Thank you. Well you guys are good. Holy smok. I have been needing this this emo I haven't had an emotional release like this in years. my gosh. Guys, I am so happy you guys are doing what you're doing. This is so crucial and valuable. So thank you. Truly Yeah, I believe that like What we were just in, the story that you shared is such a sacred, sacred space and I do not take that lightly that you've invited me into that space. It is beyond an honor for you to have shared that with me, but like I can only speak for myself, to get a glimpse of you like at your most honest, vulnerable self. Like it is truly my honor. Thank you. That's why you're I'm so happy there are people like you doing what you're doing. Cause though that's exactly what you would hope for is the people in your space with your mindset and your heart and your spirit just truly wanting to connect with people and help people and having such a gift for it. And then baby, you just gosh can't say enough good things about you. Thank you both. Thank you. Yes, and so we'll just remind people that if they want to follow you on your journey, your the name of the podcast is The Nativist and we are going to link it and link the episode where Bibi was specifically and then link the episode with your sister which I can't wait to dive into. So just again thank you and if listeners have comments leave them. Make sure that you are liking and subscribing and all the things.