Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / How Divorce Changes Your Self-Concept!

Transcript

How Divorce Changes Your Self-Concept! · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

• 0:05
  Hi everybody and welcome to the Doctor Psych Mom Show.
• 0:08
  Today we're going to be talking about how divorce changes
• 0:11
  yourself concept, an interesting topic for anybody that has been
• 0:15
  divorced or separated or considering divorce or
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  separation. I work with obviously a lot of
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  people who are divorced or divorcing or considering divorce
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  as I work with a lot of people, you know, in their 30s forties
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  Plus. And that's around the time where
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  people start thinking that their marital issues are not not
• 0:34
  fixable. You know, is once you have kids
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  been together for like around, you know, a decade and you start
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  to think if stuff hasn't worked out by now, then it may not ever
• 0:44
  work out right. But before we get to that, I
• 0:47
  must tell you to subscribe. I have a lot of great subscriber
• 0:50
  content. Most recent episode was on the
• 0:53
  idea of marital coercion and what it is and isn't, and how to
• 0:57
  repair after marital coercion that did happen.
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  Because while, yes, of course everything can be subjective,
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  telling somebody that they were retroactively coercive and then
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  not, you know, empathizing with whatever they thought was going
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  on is certainly not the way to make your marriage work.
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  Because empathy is is on both sides, irrespective of what
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  framing is put onto anything retroactively, you know, such as
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  a man being told that he wasn't romantic for the past 10 years,
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  you know, would also possibly question that if he had never
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  been told that before and wasn't given any ways to fix it prior.
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  But that's just getting into more of the content of that
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  episode, so y'all should listen to it.
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  So anyway, the key variable, the key change rather in in a
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  divorced person's self concept and their identity versus
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  somebody who has not been divorced is that you know that
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  you've made a bad mistake, right?
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  And you really can't overstate how much this changes everything
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  because so many people, almost all people, go through life
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  trying to maintain an image that is, you know, good in some way
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  where other people respect them and think that they make good
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  choices. And you know that they can tell
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  themselves that they are try their best and they have
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  generally overall had a good life.
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  And never, you know, necessarily are they confronted with
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  evidence that they have made a bad choice.
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  Of course, until your kids get older and teenage years, years
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  than most people feel like they fuck some things up.
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  Because, you know, your kids at that point don't behave in the
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  ways that you may have thought you trained them to behave or
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  whatever. But at least people in their
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  40s, let's say, who are and aren't divorced are kind of
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  different, you know, because people have had marital issues.
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  But if they've not gotten divorced, many people think that
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  their marriage is great. Like people looking in, say, oh,
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  The Smiths, they're a good couple.
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  And so Mr. and Mrs. Smith may be completely miserable, but they
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  are usually tied in some way to the idea that at least some
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  people think that they're a good couple.
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  And overall, nobody can say about them that they have made
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  any explicit, glaring life mistakes.
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  Nobody thinks like this. People don't say, Oh yes,
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  another day that nobody thinks I've made a specific glaring
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  life mistake, you know, But it's it's a real basic part of
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  yourself concept to try to save face, you know, for humans and
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  to try to have other people think about you positively.
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  And when you've gotten divorced, you've made a mistake.
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  You truly have Nobody, literally nobody intends to get divorced.
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  I mean, maybe there's some Lifetime movies where there's
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  some you guy who's like 100 years old and a 20 year old girl
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  that marries him and she intends she actually doesn't intend for
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  him to get divorced. She intends for him to die in
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  her to get the money in those Lifetime movies or whatever.
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  But nobody, nobody just tends to get just tries to get divorced.
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  Nobody stands up there at their wedding day and says, you know,
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  this is good, but you know, it's really going to take the cake
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  when we fucking split up. Nobody.
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  So the point is you've made a mistake.
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  Now, certainly for those of us who have been divorced and have
• 4:08
  children, you don't think the children are a mistake.
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  You're in fact like when. Yeah, in my group, my Facebook
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  group. That y'all should definitely
• 4:15
  join if you like to listen to me talk because it's about we all
• 4:19
  talk about similar topics. Everybody's a Doctor Psych Mom
• 4:22
  fan. This is my Facebook group.
• 4:23
  Click on the blue subscribe button on the Doctor Psych mom
• 4:26
  Facebook page. 499 a month. But anyway, but the point is
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  there was a thread about like would you make a different
• 4:33
  choice in marrying your spouse. And it's interesting I've
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  noticed this all the guys guys are much more like kind of, I
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  don't know, fact based thinkers and they think about it
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  differently. When people say would you go
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  back and marry your ex-spouse again?
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  All the women say yes to get my children because that's the only
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  way you could do it. Like if it was Back to the
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  Future. Remember the movie Back to the
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  Future? If you didn't marry your spouse,
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  you couldn't have got your same exact children.
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  But the men think differently. They think factually, like in as
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  much as this time travel can be rational, they think.
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  But I wouldn't know those specific kids.
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  I wouldn't marry the woman. I would marry a different woman
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  with whom I would be happy and not get divorced.
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  And then I would have other children that I would love
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  equivalently and never know about these children, Right.
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  Which makes more sense, right? But for women, myself included,
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  you just cannot get over the hump of saying, but I wouldn't
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  have those specific children, you know, even though of course
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  you wouldn't have known them and whatever, but so, so yes, if
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  you've had children, at least most people could say yes, I
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  love my children very much, so therefore something good came
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  out of the relationship. But yet nobody intended to get
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  divorced. So obviously you didn't make the
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  right choice of partner or you you made a lot of fuck ups along
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  the way of the marriage, which led to the divorce.
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  You know, both. Usually compatibility issues
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  were a problem at the beginning that you shoved under the rug,
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  as we discussed in so many podcast episodes about why you
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  would do that and who you're drawn to.
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  And Imago theory and you know, drawn to somebody that you you
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  know would want to change in ways you could never change your
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  caregiver, etcetera, etcetera. And then also you fucked up
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  along the way because you fought too much or you didn't bring up
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  issues or you didn't focus on the marriage or whatever the
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  case may be, right? So at some point, if you got
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  divorced, if you're a divorced person, you know you fucked up,
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  then not only that, everybody knows you fucked up.
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  So you can no longer try to be infallible and you can no longer
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  like act like every decision you made is good or that your advice
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  necessarily would be great for everybody to listen to or
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  anything. And you know what?
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  For most people that I work with and decidedly this is a sample
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  of people who pursue therapy and therefore are more introspective
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  than average, right, And more openminded because especially if
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  they come to see me in therapy, they definitely know they're
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  going to get feedback. So these are people who not only
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  pick therapy but also pick me, but these people and also myself
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  personally, as I've been divorced.
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  It could be liberating, right? You no longer have to pretend
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  that you're perfect, so you can really try anything.
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  You could try so many different things in your life because you
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  don't have to worry what people will think.
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  So, so personally, right? So I got divorced, shoot what
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  was 38 maybe. And yeah, man, I don't even
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  remember. All right, Around 38, right?
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  I think 37, remarried at 39, whatever.
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  There was a year in between 3839 something.
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  I looked down. I got married because I have a
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  tattoo on my wrist. I was remarried on March 15th,
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  2020. So.
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  So it would have been 19 that I got divorced.
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  And so anyway, so for me, previous to that, in my earlier
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  30s when I had younger children, etcetera, I had thought at some
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  point I no longer want to do this, about dyeing my hair some
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  crazy color, like pink or something, because my daughter
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  liked pink hair. She was a very little girl.
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  And I thought I would do it, but I thought it'd be so
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  embarrassing, you know? I thought that would be so
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  embarrassing. My clients would come and people
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  would all, you know, think it was weird, It would look so
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  weird and whatever. And that seemed like a really
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  big deal, you know? Like, I wouldn't want to make a
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  bad choice. Maybe I would think it was kind
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  of fun or cute, but other people would think it was
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  unprofessional or like, bad or some, you know, whatever.
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  This was like something I thought about, like like almost
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  like, oh, I wish I could do that, you know?
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  But I can't, you know, like that sort of feeling about things.
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  Then like, I got divorced, that I'm, like a marital counselor
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  and I was like, holy shit, this is way worse, right, than pink
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  hair. Pink hair doesn't mean that,
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  like, you made a bad life choice.
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  Whereas, like, divorce definitely does, you know, at
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  least in some way. Of course, it could have been
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  the right decision to get divorced.
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  People could think that. But then the marriage wasn't the
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  right decision. Like, something's a bad
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  decision, right? So, you know, then I was like,
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  as soon as that happened, I was like, holy shit, like nobody's
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  gonna want to see a divorced marital counselor.
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  And this is like something that I'm in therapy, you know,
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  therapist list serves and groups.
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  And a lot of people think this like, you know, as they get
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  divorced or they have any sort of marital problems, they have
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  this crisis of identity, Like, why is anybody going to want to
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  see me if I couldn't make my marriage work ironically?
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  And I think, as I'm saying this, that I've mentioned this in a
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  podcast before, ironically, way more people wanted to see me.
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  And I think that's because of what I'm talking about.
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  Because if you have only seen a counselor who's been happy with
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  their spouse, what the hell do they know?
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  You know, it's like, it's like, you know, having like, a part,
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  if you've been raised dysfunctionally, having a
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  partner that wasn't raised dysfunctionally, it's like, the
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  hell do they know about your crazy family?
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  They can't possibly empathize. Whereas if somebody's been
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  divorced, at least you got to know that they understand
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  marital dysfunction, right? So interestingly, and yet more
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  and more people reached out to me than less.
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  But the point before is I never thought about the pink hair
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  thing again. I was like, I could do that.
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  I could do pink hair, I could do no hair.
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  I could do whatever the fuck I want.
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  Really. Because who cares really.
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  It did no longer seem remotely salient that, you know, some
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  people might judge it because they had much bigger things to
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  judge. And fuck, it can't do anything
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  about that. So who cares about the rest of
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  it? And I see this same sort of
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  motif in many of my divorced clients, if not all.
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  All of a sudden you're like, you know what?
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  I could kind of do whatever I want, you know?
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  Obviously it didn't work to try to do the normal.
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  What society tells you to do is find the right person, get
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  married, stay together, no matter what.
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  You know, that didn't work. So shit.
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  I mean, what else doesn't work? There must be a bunch of other
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  norms and mores that I was raised with to think were, you
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  know, unchangeable and something I definitely had to adhere to.
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  That also don't work for me, you know?
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  And I should really reexamine a lot of the ways that I've been
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  living and see what works and what doesn't, because people can
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  judge me no matter what. And many people have started to
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  judge me already. A person would think, you know,
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  because as I've discussed, you lose a lot of friends and
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  divorce. Both genders do.
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  And I have a whole podcast about that and post, so I don't have
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  to get into it. But anyway, since people judge
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  me, then I might as well live the life that I want to live.
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  I might as well live in a way that's consistent with my own
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  beliefs and values. And this also happens with
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  remarriage. People frequently marry
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  somebody. That would be unexpected.
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  So while there's this ridiculous concept on the manosphere of
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  hypergamy that women are always trying to, you know, marry an
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  even richer guy and date even richer and richer men all the
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  time, that's like the opposite. What I see, you know, I see that
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  women finally like just marry who they love and who they get
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  along with versus anything about thinking if he has a good job or
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  if parents are going to like him or if he's the right height or
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  like anything, you know? And of course, you know, like on
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  the men's side, it's the same sort of thing.
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  So a lot of women will be like, oh, but, you know, I would never
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  have expected him to marry that woman.
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  She's like, so, like, not traditional.
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  So, like, we had a traditional life.
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  I was a stay at home mom. He wanted to be me, to be stay
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  at home mom. He was working all the time.
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  But now he remarried somebody at work.
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  And, like, they're like splitting the childcare evenly.
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  You know, that it's like a totally different thing.
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  Yeah. That guy married somebody he's
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  more compatible with. He was probably raised to think
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  he should have a wife who's a stay at home mom.
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  And in fact, he gets along with somebody totally different and
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  he's allowing himself to do that, you know, to just marry
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  who he wants to marry now versus what he thinks he's supposed to
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  do. So divorcing gets rid of this
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  idea that, like, you're supposed to be somebody that people find
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  to be acceptable in all these different ways and that that
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  should be the primary goal of your life is to be thought of as
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  acceptable and to be approved of Because so many people don't
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  approve of the divorce that it's like kind of exposure therapy.
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  You're like, well, I was so scared of people's approval.
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  And now, like, all these people literally didn't approve because
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  it happens when you get divorced.
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  Many people and your friends, family, et cetera, don't
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  approve. And then if you date, they don't
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  approve. And then if you marry, they
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  don't approve and don't approve, don't approve.
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  So you get used to it, you know? And it's like, oh, all right.
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  I guess some people are going to approve.
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  Some people aren't. But how I get one life.
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  So guess I'm going to do what I want, you know?
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  And as long as I don't hurt anybody and as long as I'm a
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  good person in whatever way that matters to me, I guess this shit
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  doesn't matter as much about what people think.
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  And this is when people try to actually transition careers or
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  have different sorts of relationships with their
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  children, you know, more authentic or take up hobbies
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  that they never thought that they could take up or any sort
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  of any number of things. You know, people change a lot
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  more after divorce because finally they can.
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  It's like they broke the seal of this, you know, obsession with
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  others approval. That is totally normal, totally
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  normal human thing. And you never even really think
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  about it till you're out of it. Because most people, you know,
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  they do what their parents want, then they do what their boss
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  wants, then they do what society wants and what their spouse
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  wants, and then finally they stop.
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  You know, if they get divorced, they're like, well, shit, I'm
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  just going to do what I want, you know?
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  I'm going to do what's best for me and my children and I don't
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  necessarily care as much about if it meets these certain
• 14:22
  criteria that other people in my life have and people that were
• 14:27
  particularly enmeshed with their parents and really into their
• 14:30
  parents approval. If their parents do not approve
• 14:32
  of the divorce, it could be extremely liberating for them
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  because then they're like, oh guess I'm not the perfect kid.
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  So I guess I can actually live for me now instead of living for
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  you. And that is obviously going to
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  be a superior way to live in terms of feeling like your real
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  self for most adults is to live for yourself versus to live for
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  your parents. So anyway, it's an interesting
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  topic to think about and it's why when people are divorced,
• 14:57
  they become friends with other people who are divorced.
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  You know, it's it's like anything, it's like once you've
• 15:02
  been through it, just like combat vets, make friends with
• 15:04
  combat vets, you know, and I'm in no way, I'm not at all saying
• 15:09
  a divorce is similar to having been in combat.
• 15:12
  I used to work with combat vets at the VA That's why I think
• 15:14
  about it, because one guy said to me, well, I can't say
• 15:17
  anything about what happened to you because I would only talk
• 15:21
  about that to somebody who had experienced it.
• 15:23
  And interestingly, over time we got close and he did share
• 15:26
  things with me. But at first it's a very, very
• 15:30
  strong feeling that you should not share with anybody who has
• 15:34
  not gone through it because they wouldn't understand.
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  And a little version of that is for people who have divorced.
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  It's kind of like they don't think necessarily that people
• 15:44
  who have not been divorced would understand as well as people who
• 15:48
  have, which is the same as anybody who's gone through
• 15:50
  anything parents and non parents, widows, non widows of
• 15:53
  anything, health, people with health issues, other people with
• 15:56
  health issues, etc. So anyway, I thought this was an
• 15:59
  interesting topic, certainly one that would be interesting for
• 16:02
  you to bring up in therapy if you are in therapy and
• 16:04
  considering divorce or going through divorce.
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  Something for people to introspect about.
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  How has your divorce? Or how would a divorce change
• 16:10
  your life, if that's something that you're considering?
• 16:13
  I certainly do not think this is the only way to solve actualize.
• 16:16
  Far from it. Many people have similar
• 16:18
  epiphanies about how they're not going to do what other people
• 16:21
  think within the context of remaining married, or they
• 16:24
  transform their marriage into what Esther Peril calls marriage
• 16:27
  2.0. They try to have a totally
• 16:29
  different marriage, and couples counseling can really help with
• 16:31
  that. That's another one, by the way.
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  Interestingly, a little version of this is going into couples
• 16:35
  counseling. It's like you were saying your
• 16:37
  marriage was good. You were saying it was too good
• 16:39
  to need therapy. It was so good.
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  It didn't need therapy. It was fine.
• 16:42
  It didn't need therapy. It's OK Still doesn't need
• 16:44
  therapy. It's not great, but at least we
• 16:46
  don't need therapy. And then so I guess we do need
• 16:49
  therapy. And at that point you can't
• 16:51
  really be on your high horse anymore about being perfect
• 16:54
  because you're not perfect. You need marital counseling.
• 16:56
  And at that point even that small change, small versus like
• 17:01
  fully getting divorced is enough to open people up to trying new
• 17:04
  things. Because shit, as I say to most
• 17:05
  people, Matt, you know that are in my office, I say, well,
• 17:08
  things can't be going that great, right, because otherwise
• 17:10
  you wouldn't be talking to me. So let's actually talk about the
• 17:13
  issues because a lot of people in their first sessions,
• 17:15
  especially they try to save a lot of face.
• 17:17
  They try to just tell me how great the marriage is.
• 17:19
  I'm like, man, this is an expensive way to tell somebody
• 17:22
  how great your marriage is. You know, why don't we actually
• 17:24
  focus on why you're here? So, you know, once you have to
• 17:27
  say yes, I'm in marital counseling, then you can crack
• 17:30
  yourself open to looking deeper at how you'd like to change and
• 17:34
  which of these things that you're doing is working for you
• 17:36
  and not. All right, guys, hope you
• 17:38
  enjoyed this episode and I'll talk to Y'all soon.
• 17:40
  Have a great day.