Latest / The Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast / How to Turn Customer Stories into Trust, Brand, and Revenue | John Elbing

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How to Turn Customer Stories into Trust, Brand, and Revenue | John Elbing · The Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast

• 0:00
  We go through three steps when we encounter a brand.
• 0:02
  And the first one is sort of like,
• 0:04
  do I recognize myself in this brand?
• 0:06
  Is it for people like me or for companies like me?
• 0:08
  Yeah.
• 0:10
  Often I find one of the problems is you
• 0:12
  tell about you, tell everything about your offer.
• 0:14
  but what I want to know is why should I choose you over your competition?
• 0:19
  Dare to niche down, dare to specialize,
• 0:21
  dare to stand out.
• 0:23
  You'd rather have a few people that really are crazy about you than a whole crowd
• 0:27
  of people that don't really care.
• 0:29
  Companies know their customers a lot better than they think.
• 0:31
  There is an interesting story there.
• 0:33
  They just don't know how to tell it.
• 0:50
  Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Relentless Pursuit of Winning podcast.
• 0:54
  My name is Rick Meekins. I'm gonna be your host today and in our studio
• 0:57
  we have John Elbing. How are you today,
• 0:59
  sir?
• 1:00
  Hi Rick, happy to be here. great way to end the week.
• 1:03
  Yes, yes, yes. Thank you so much.
• 1:05
  I I appreciate I'm humbled by that.
• 1:07
  Thank you so much. Folks,
• 1:09
  if you haven't done it already,
• 1:10
  we would be delighted if you would like,
• 1:11
  subscribe, and hit the bell so that you can get updates on every episode that
• 1:15
  we drop. And without further ado,
• 1:17
  let's get to it. So John, as we ask all of our guests and our our audience
• 1:21
  is just sitting on the edges of their seat waiting to find out,
• 1:24
  who are you? What do you do and why do you do what you do?
• 1:27
  Okay, so I coach companies and startups and I specialize in storytelling.
• 1:32
  And and I found that storytelling,
• 1:34
  it started out as trying to help people get a better marketing message,
• 1:37
  and it's turned out to be a more powerful tool than that,
• 1:40
  where it helps teams align teams on the same story,
• 1:44
  even clarify position that your positioning,
• 1:47
  be more focused on on the customer.
• 1:50
  So, what I do is I help them write their customer story.
• 1:54
  And it's
• 1:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:55
  how they fit in their customer story.
• 1:57
  And that flips the script and helps them see themselves from the outside.
• 2:02
  You know, everyone is so concentrated on what they do,
• 2:06
  what they offer, what they, you know,
• 2:07
  from the inside out. So what I help them do is step back and look
• 2:12
  at themselves from the outside and tell their customer story.
• 2:15
  gonna have to dig into that but what I need to know though you know ~ what
• 2:20
  got you into this space I mean this isn't something that you know we step
• 2:23
  out of college and it's like hey I'm gonna be a storyteller unless you're
• 2:25
  a communications manager major but and then it's more like we'd like to
• 2:28
  do that but you know nobody's gonna pay us to do that because we have
• 2:31
  no experience so what what got you into this field?
• 2:35
  I mean, I've zigged and zagged.
• 2:36
  So I was a I I I was a software engineer ~
• 2:40
  Uh-huh.
• 2:40
  and ~ you know went into kind of things like project management.
• 2:44
  I went back to do an MBA in finance and I thought,
• 2:47
  ooh, finance, never again. ~ but
• 2:50
  Yeah.
• 2:50
  it's a great, you know, background knowledge.
• 2:52
  I did some startups that didn't work out,
• 2:55
  and then I worked in marketing agencies.
• 2:57
  So I have this combination of of tech.
• 3:01
  Finance, marketing, entrepreneurial experience.
• 3:04
  And I got into a lot of different methods,
• 3:07
  design thinking, and I have canvases
• 3:08
  Mm-hmm.
• 3:09
  where you use post-its to figure out things.
• 3:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 3:12
  And I've worked with all these companies.
• 3:14
  And and then, you know, I've just keep reading,
• 3:17
  keep learning different things.
• 3:18
  And I when I stumbled on s on on on storytelling,
• 3:22
  that's when I sort of started playing with it and I found what it you know,
• 3:25
  how how powerful it could be, because
• 3:28
  really forces people to ask the right questions.
• 3:31
  Who am I talking to? What's important?
• 3:33
  What's less important? And things like that.
• 3:34
  So I so I I really can't say that I was,
• 3:37
  you know, meant for this. it was,
• 3:39
  you know, I it's sort of this combination of all these things.
• 3:42
  And I think one one step was was stand up.
• 3:45
  No, sorry, was improv. So I did like eight years of improv,
• 3:49
  you know, and went on stage and you sort of learn to
• 3:52
  to tell stories but to let you to let go and to not feel the you know
• 3:57
  the ridicule or anything like that.
• 3:59
  And somehow that that that that that story side sort of sort of stayed with me.
• 4:05
  and so then I
• 4:06
  So the last step, I guess, is that I realize that storytelling is this buzzword.
• 4:10
  Everyone's talking about storytelling,
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  and I and a lot of it is how to tell your story in a better way.
• 4:16
  You know, we start with a hook and do this and dance on one foot or whatever it is,
• 4:20
  but not much about what story to tell.
• 4:22
  So I created this method called story building.
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  It's a book with the method is about building the right story.
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  Then with that story, you can create a website or a pitch or go up
• 4:33
  on stage or whatever it is, talk to your customers.
• 4:36
  But it's it's more about getting the right story than than just the sort
• 4:41
  of tips and tricks on how to tell it well.
• 4:43
  I like that. Give me a s give us give us a give us an example of where
• 4:48
  you took a company that ~ didn't quite have a story,
• 4:51
  you know, a decent sized company,
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  I don't and you know, whatever whatever that means to you.
• 4:55
  ~ I'd love to hear about what that transformation looked like because what what
• 4:59
  I heard you say earlier was that,
• 5:01
  you know, it's not just the the marketing story anymore,
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  but it's a story that, you know,
• 5:06
  does a bit of a transformation within the organization.
• 5:08
  It's everybody aligned and on the same page and that sort of thing.
• 5:11
  so one that comes to mind is Felco,
• 5:13
  which is the world leader of garden shears of all things.
• 5:17
  their 80-year-old company. you know,
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  even you know, farm workers in California buy them even though they're crazy
• 5:24
  expensive because they last forever.
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  You know, it's a really heavy-duty garden shears,
• 5:29
  but also, you know, kind of tools like that.
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  And then a few years back.
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  They created their first e-commerce website.
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  And they realized that there were,
• 5:37
  you know, gentleman gardener kind of types,
• 5:40
  you know, your little yard that loved their brand and their tools.
• 5:44
  They wanted the best tools. People had actually tattooed Felco on their body like
• 5:49
  Harley Davidson. And
• 5:51
  Wow. Okay.
• 5:52
  and so they started a, you know,
• 5:53
  this new, you know, they created a few with the leather handles and golden.
• 5:58
  Blades and with a designer and stuff like that.
• 6:00
  But somehow their story was, hey,
• 6:03
  you know, Swiss quality, and you know,
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  and you know, that's about it.
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  And so you
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  Mm-hmm.
• 6:07
  went on their website and there was this mix of heavy-duty tools
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  and sort of designer tools all together with the no story.
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  Mm-hmm.
• 6:16
  And so we not only had to build a story,
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  but we had to build two stories for the two different audiences.
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  Because somehow
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  Mm-hmm.
• 6:22
  they're
• 6:23
  You know, the benefit was sort of the same for both.
• 6:25
  So we, you know, we created two different personas and sort of to say,
• 6:28
  you know, we understand you. These are your aspirations,
• 6:31
  your challenges, this is what we offer,
• 6:33
  and this is how your life will be better,
• 6:35
  but in two different worlds. And then
• 6:35
  Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 6:37
  they're their resellers have different stories to tell.
• 6:40
  And you know, it sort of created ~ had them there was sort of this click internally
• 6:45
  to say, hey, you know, we we have these two different very
• 6:49
  different audiences and products and styles and that changed how,
• 6:54
  you know, their whole you know,
• 6:55
  then they hired this million dollar marketing firm to do to actually implement that
• 7:00
  change.
• 7:00
  but that was quite quite a big step after eighty years.
• 7:03
  Yeah. You said eighty years, not eight years,
• 7:06
  right? 'Cause eight years, I mean it's just like it's
• 7:06
  Yeah. Yeah, eighty years. It's sort of like the
• 7:10
  it's the the grand the grandson or the great grandson that took over the company,
• 7:15
  you know, third generation kind of thing.
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  Mm-hmm.
• 7:18
  But but but somehow it's you know i it's almost even more obvious with startups.
• 7:24
  You know, I have some of these very deep tech startups.
• 7:27
  So they have this amazing tech,
• 7:29
  and then they say, Ooh, well, I guess we have to sell it now.
• 7:32
  You know.
• 7:33
  Who should we sell it to? And so to go through that,
• 7:36
  you know, to see what they're offering from,
• 7:38
  you know, c companies will say,
• 7:41
  we have this great solution. Well,
• 7:43
  the problem must be exactly what matches our solution.
• 7:47
  You know, almost
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  Mm.
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  the problem is they don't have our solution yet,
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  kind of thing. And
• 7:51
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 7:52
  when you step back and you understand the client,
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  you know, it's it's not necessarily the practical solution.
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  It's about feeling seen, it's about security,
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  it's about
• 8:00
  being the hero. It's about you know solving more other problems and things.
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  And if you can, if you can get that right,
• 8:07
  I worked with NGO into in water purification.
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  And
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  Mm-hmm.
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  normally in developing countries,
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  they'll have a program and they'll deliver chlorine in powder form by truck,
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  put in the water and that you know clean cleans out the bacteria
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  and cleans the water. And they have a system where with electrolyse they can
• 8:26
  Create chlorine locally instead of shipping it.
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  And ask them what the problem,
• 8:30
  what is the problem you solve?
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  And they say, well, you know, people get sick,
• 8:33
  kind of thing. But then we step back,
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  and the the people in the field,
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  their worry, the thing that held the that kept them up at night,
• 8:41
  was that the truck could get stuck in the mud and not arrive.
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  So they were solving a logistic problem,
• 8:47
  of course, in the scope of people not getting sick.
• 8:50
  But to understand that the worry of the user,
• 8:54
  the client, the is is a different level.
• 8:57
  I even saw an ad for some kind of handyman that would come to replay your appliance.
• 9:02
  And their ad was, we arrive on time.
• 9:04
  Mm-hmm.
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  And what that says is, you know,
• 9:07
  if I need a plumber, I'm not worried he's a bad plumber.
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  I'm worried that I'm gonna have to take the full day off and I'm
• 9:12
  not sure he'll arrive or they'll be late or stuff like that.
• 9:15
  So sort of like
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  Yeah.
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  your time is just as important as ours.
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  And I respect you. And you know,
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  I'm gonna be there for you. And that creates this level of trust because
• 9:25
  you really feel like, okay, he he gets my worry.
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  ~
• 9:29
  Yeah.
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  And and that changes how you interact with the with the company.
• 9:34
  Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that.
• 9:36
  ~ what comes to you know, it's interesting.
• 9:38
  I I like two sides of the spectrum like cross my mind.
• 9:42
  It's like, you know, I I think about like the the AI companies that have you know,
• 9:46
  that are launching, you know, ChatGPT and Anthropic and you know,
• 9:50
  they come out and just like, hey,
• 9:51
  we have this really cool tool,
• 9:52
  you know, and everybody's just like,
• 9:54
  this is so cool and we're doing all the things,
• 9:56
  you know, but there's not really a story,
• 9:58
  you know, behind it. It's just it just exists and and you know,
• 10:01
  we we play with it.
• 10:02
  But then I started to see like these little ads that are starting to pop
• 10:05
  up and it's just like wow this is practical.
• 10:07
  There's a lot of opportunity to to put a wrapper around these AI,
• 10:10
  very specialized in your
• 10:11
  yeah, absolutely.
• 10:12
  program, your problem. And you know,
• 10:14
  I've I've I've been coaching AI startups,
• 10:16
  and
• 10:16
  Okay.
• 10:17
  like a year or two ago, it was look how the crazy stuff we're doing.
• 10:22
  And today it's
• 10:22
  Exactly.
• 10:24
  okay, you know the crazy opportunity of AI,
• 10:27
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:27
  but
• 10:28
  You know, what about security,
• 10:29
  about privacy, about hallucination,
• 10:30
  about you know, implementing, about you know,
• 10:32
  employee onboarding and all these problems.
• 10:35
  So we're doing
• 10:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:36
  this, you know, the the amazing crazy stuff like everybody else,
• 10:40
  but we're doing it right. And
• 10:42
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 10:43
  it's so it's an interesting shift,
• 10:45
  especially for
• 10:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:46
  companies. If a company is gonna buy AI today,
• 10:48
  so you're a hospital, what are you gonna just send all your your patient information
• 10:53
  up to you know, Chat GPT?
• 10:56
  No, I mean this has these stuff this has to be managed.
• 10:58
  And if if that report, you know,
• 11:00
  you generate a report from a you know a medical report,
• 11:03
  damn, if that report isn't 100% correct and they amputate the wrong leg,
• 11:08
  I mean that that's that's really bad.
• 11:10
  So it you know, so there's governance that comes in and all these other things.
• 11:14
  You know, we've we've just passed that you know kind of hype phase where
• 11:17
  you can say, you know, you can do amazing stuff.
• 11:20
  Yeah, but
• 11:21
  But you have to do it right. So that yeah,
• 11:22
  so it's interesting again to see what what the worry is.
• 11:25
  ~
• 11:25
  Right,
• 11:26
  right, right. ~ the other side of that I was thinking about was was Nike,
• 11:29
  you know, with their their just do it,
• 11:31
  you know, and it's like, you know,
• 11:33
  you think about the story, you know,
• 11:34
  as as an athlete, it's just like,
• 11:36
  yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna get out there,
• 11:37
  I'm gonna do the thing, I'm gonna practice,
• 11:38
  I'm gonna work hard, I'm gonna win,
• 11:40
  et cetera, et cetera. I mean there's always a story around those three words,
• 11:44
  just do it. And I j I just find that so fascinating.
• 11:47
  But I think that's even it's even more powerful than that.
• 11:50
  Because so, yes, there are, it's it might be a myth,
• 11:53
  but it's supposedly there are people that actually buy sneakers to run,
• 11:56
  but most people buy them to look cool.
• 11:58
  Right.
• 11:59
  No, but I mean, so they do have really two different audiences.
• 12:02
  They do have the athletes, and it's a sports brand,
• 12:05
  but they have the lifestyle. You know,
• 12:08
  people have Nike. And so if you're gonna,
• 12:10
  a lot of other sports brands target the athletes.
• 12:13
  And it's a kind of a side thing that there's a little bit of lifestyle.
• 12:17
  But with
• 12:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:18
  just do it, well, just do it, you know,
• 12:20
  go get the girl or whatever, you know.
• 12:21
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ~
• 12:22
  And so it's a way
• 12:24
  of saying, we're there for people that have ~ an aspiration,
• 12:29
  you know, and yes, the athletes are part of that,
• 12:31
  but not only. And so other, you
• 12:33
  I know.
• 12:33
  know, the what wherever you're at,
• 12:35
  you can sort of say, Yeah, you know,
• 12:37
  I have to.
• 12:38
  I'm okay, I'm gonna quit my job and start my startup or whatever,
• 12:41
  you know, just do it. And so it's a way of,
• 12:45
  you know, reconciling the all their different audiences in one in one tagline,
• 12:51
  which is which is quite a feat.
• 12:53
  sense you know i i i guess i only looked at it from like you know my world
• 12:56
  my world view but i i get that that that makes total sense that makes total sense
• 12:59
  that's that's huge so you your your big your big story your big idea
• 13:04
  is that we're building customer centric ~ stories and you you talked about
• 13:09
  the the company earlier and they had two different audiences and
• 13:11
  you built stories around each of them ~ what do what do we do wrong
• 13:15
  you know what what is the what is the typical story
• 13:18
  making process sorry creation process that you're seeing and then of course,
• 13:24
  you know, your your solution and and what are the problems with that.
• 13:27
  let's start there.
• 13:28
  Well, I guess the first thing is,
• 13:29
  I mean, you know, people are are are caught in their bubble.
• 13:32
  And so say, what do you if you say,
• 13:34
  you know, what do you do? They're gonna,
• 13:37
  well, I do this great stuff.
• 13:39
  Yeah.
• 13:42
  but as a customer, I found that We go through three steps when we encounter a brand.
• 13:47
  And the first one is sort of like,
• 13:49
  do I recognize myself in this brand?
• 13:52
  Is it for people like me or for companies like me?
• 13:53
  Yeah.
• 13:54
  You know,
• 13:55
  if I land on a, you know, I'm an independent consultant,
• 13:58
  so I'm looking for a CRM, you know,
• 14:01
  a customer relationship management system to think,
• 14:03
  okay, I'm gonna finally step up my my thing.
• 14:06
  And it says, we're the best for teams.
• 14:09
  Well, they've lost me. I'm not a team.
• 14:11
  But
• 14:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:12
  if they say, you know, we specialize in independent independence,
• 14:16
  you know, because
• 14:17
  We understand you, I'll think,
• 14:18
  no, gee, they understand, they see me,
• 14:20
  they like me.
• 14:21
  Yeah.
• 14:21
  And so that first step is really a kind of shortcut into trust by saying,
• 14:25
  you know, hey, we understand who you are,
• 14:27
  we understand your aspirations,
• 14:28
  we understand your challenges.
• 14:30
  And and and a lot of companies skip that.
• 14:32
  So then the second step would be perception,
• 14:35
  which is just understanding ~ the offer.
• 14:38
  And Often I find one of the problems is you
• 14:41
  tell about you, tell everything about your offer.
• 14:43
  So, you know, I know what a CRM is.
• 14:46
  So if
• 14:46
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:47
  you tell me that, ~ we follow up on customers,
• 14:50
  you think, yeah, but what I want to know is why should I choose you over the other,
• 14:54
  your count, your competition? So
• 14:56
  Yeah.
• 14:56
  what you're doing different is often more important than what you're doing
• 15:00
  in general. We do all the normal stuff,
• 15:02
  but we do it differently, or we do this in addition,
• 15:05
  or whatever it is. There there can be.
• 15:07
  ideas around categories and things.
• 15:09
  Anyway, so you know, somehow companies know how to talk about what they do,
• 15:12
  even though you can probably do better.
• 15:14
  But then there's a third step,
• 15:16
  which I call projection. So I say,
• 15:18
  okay, that's CRM, that's the thing I have to do,
• 15:20
  but then I'm gonna have to install it and I'm gonna have to learn to use
• 15:24
  it and and I'm gonna have to get all my data from my,
• 15:27
  you know, emails and spreadsheet,
• 15:28
  you know Okay, I'm gonna do it,
• 15:30
  but I'll come back next week and then I don't.
• 15:32
  And so if you can accompany people to say,
• 15:34
  this is how it's gonna happen,
• 15:36
  these are the steps, and hey, by the way,
• 15:39
  you know, you won't have these problems anymore.
• 15:41
  And then close your eyes and imagine your day.
• 15:44
  Imagine how you're this positive future.
• 15:47
  Mm-hmm.
• 15:47
  Somehow it you know, it it it closes all these open questions,
• 15:51
  all these objections, and you're so with if you do recognition well,
• 15:56
  you have the right people coming in.
• 15:58
  Instead of random people coming in.
• 16:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:00
  And then you bring them a few steps further on in the engagement.
• 16:05
  They're already pre-living what you're selling.
• 16:06
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 16:08
  And so that book a demo or you know sign up for our trial or whatever that your your
• 16:14
  your call to action is, you
• 16:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:16
  know, they you you've closed down a number of objections,
• 16:18
  then they can see it and they can imagine it.
• 16:20
  ~ you
• 16:21
  Mm.
• 16:21
  know, often they'll say, that looks cool,
• 16:23
  but I have no idea what what what's gonna happen.
• 16:25
  Is this consulting? Is it an online thing?
• 16:27
  Is it a training? Is it a way,
• 16:29
  you know? If you but if you can really say,
• 16:31
  okay, this is gonna be four weeks and you're gonna spend 20 minutes a day,
• 16:34
  and it's this, and then that c you know makes it such more,
• 16:38
  such so easier ~ for people. So
• 16:42
  Yeah.
• 16:42
  recognition perception ~ projection,
• 16:45
  and and and often companies skip on the first,
• 16:48
  the first one and the last one.
• 16:49
  I mean, they only talk about what they do.
• 16:51
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 16:51
  And this is a
• 16:51
  way of saying, you know, we get you.
• 16:53
  This is how you're gonna be impacted.
• 16:55
  This is how we can help you. We're the best at making you successful.
• 16:58
  It's not that we're the best, you know,
• 17:00
  we're the hero. It's you're
• 17:01
  Yeah. Right.
• 17:02
  the hero and we're gonna we're gonna be your guide to help you
• 17:05
  be successful and look how it'll be great.
• 17:07
  ~ and so if you can build a story that follows those steps,
• 17:10
  that is very engaging.
• 17:12
  Yeah. The ~ interesting. I'm I'm thinking I'm stuck on the nuts stuff,
• 17:17
  but you I'm thinking about the CRM in particular and just the amount
• 17:20
  of competition out there. And one one of the and I mean you you've you've done
• 17:24
  marketing. ~ one of the things that they've always we've always shied away from
• 17:28
  in marketing is you know, talking about the features and benefits.
• 17:32
  You know, and so we're not talking,
• 17:34
  but you know, just getting wrapped so wrapped up in the futures and benefits.
• 17:37
  and I'm wondering when we're talking about,
• 17:40
  you know, highly competitive areas,
• 17:42
  how we craft that part of the story without,
• 17:46
  you know, just coming down with a list,
• 17:48
  hey, we do this, this, this, this,
• 17:49
  this, and this, like every other firm.
• 17:51
  But, you know, what whatever, how how does that work?
• 17:53
  How do we put that together? How do we figure that out?
• 17:55
  So so I I found that one people,
• 17:58
  some people will come in and say,
• 18:00
  Hey, we do all these things for all these people.
• 18:02
  There's no way where we can come with one story.
• 18:05
  You
• 18:06
  Yeah.
• 18:06
  know, and that's the Nike example,
• 18:08
  where you know, you come down and you get this one story.
• 18:10
  But you have to choose what is
• 18:12
  What is the core identity? What are their you know their their
• 18:15
  one or two challenges? But you have all this backlog of,
• 18:18
  well, we solve all these other problems too,
• 18:20
  and look at all these other benefits.
• 18:22
  Right.
• 18:22
  So at the end of the story, you can sort of raise the stakes.
• 18:26
  You know, if you don't go forward with the CRM,
• 18:28
  you're gonna still, you know, miss follow-ups,
• 18:31
  you're gonna, you know, you're gonna have all these issues.
• 18:34
  But if
• 18:34
  Yeah.
• 18:35
  you before with us, imagine what it's gonna be like.
• 18:37
  You're you know, you're going to
• 18:39
  You know, have the time to spend with your thing,
• 18:41
  you know, you're going to, you know,
• 18:43
  you increase your this, you're going to be more successful.
• 18:45
  You can. And a lot of it is about emotion.
• 18:48
  There's a direct benefit, but then there's the emotional benefit of the benefit.
• 18:53
  So I say I mow your lawn.
• 18:55
  Mm-hmm.
• 18:55
  Imagine how you'll be proud in front of your neighbors.
• 18:58
  So it's not necessarily about your grass is going to be an inch long.
• 19:02
  It's it's about.
• 19:03
  about how you feel with this. You know,
• 19:06
  the the ben you know, we often stop at the benefit,
• 19:10
  the practical benefit, and then don't go all the way to the emotional benefit.
• 19:14
  You know, you're gonna be the hero of your company.
• 19:16
  ~
• 19:16
  Yeah.
• 19:17
  you're going to or whatever it is.
• 19:20
  Yeah. Yeah. So it it almost sounds like I it it it almost sounds like we're
• 19:25
  in a situation where who tell you know,
• 19:27
  who tells a better story? I mean if you think if you think about,
• 19:29
  you know, your ~ you know, your your lawn care company,
• 19:32
  you know, it's like my lawn care company says,
• 19:34
  you know, look at your lawn, your lawn is gonna be beautiful,
• 19:37
  your lawn is gonna look better than your neighbor's yard.
• 19:40
  You know what I'm
• 19:40
  Yeah.
• 19:40
  saying? We're gonna come out like every two weeks,
• 19:42
  we're gonna make sure your grass is you know,
• 19:44
  and so you know, I get that.
• 19:45
  you know, that feeling of pride,
• 19:46
  you know, I get the confidence that they're gonna be out there every week,
• 19:49
  et cetera, et cetera. But I mean,
• 19:51
  another company can come along and say the same thing.
• 19:53
  And so is it just a
• 19:53
  So that's where the differentiation is important.
• 19:56
  what's that?
• 19:57
  That's where the differentiation is so important.
• 19:59
  It's like, you know.
• 19:59
  And and
• 20:00
  how do we how do we how do we get that into the story though?
• 20:03
  I mean you just talk about cutting grass.
• 20:03
  Well well,
• 20:06
  first of all, you have to have one.
• 20:09
  So now
• 20:09
  Okay.
• 20:10
  I've seen landscapers or whatever,
• 20:12
  or gardeners who will say, you know,
• 20:14
  we have a subscription model or something,
• 20:16
  you know, you and then we come when we need it,
• 20:19
  you know, we organize the thing,
• 20:21
  or somewhat, you know, or or we have what we do is that we choose
• 20:25
  the plants that will fill your yard with butterflies.
• 20:29
  Yeah.
• 20:29
  Or and and I I knew someone like that that would sell
• 20:31
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:32
  flower seeds depending on the region that would attract butterflies.
• 20:37
  Amazing.
• 20:38
  and so so this idea of doing something different.
• 20:41
  So say you're an accountant and you think,
• 20:43
  how in the hell
• 20:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:44
  can I be different as an accountant?
• 20:46
  Well say you speculate.
• 20:46
  Mm-hmm. That's a good question.
• 20:48
  Drumroll, please.
• 20:49
  I I think companies are are afraid to niche down.
• 20:52
  They're always afraid to say, you know,
• 20:54
  if we niche down, we might lose that one customer,
• 20:57
  you know.
• 20:57
  Yeah.
• 20:58
  But actually, if you niche down,
• 20:59
  so say you're an accountant, you say,
• 21:00
  Okay, I it I'm an accountant for medical professionals.
• 21:04
  And so sure, the plumber won't come to you.
• 21:06
  But if I'm a if I have a, you know,
• 21:08
  I'm a doctor and I need an accountant,
• 21:10
  I think, wow, okay, he knows my business,
• 21:13
  he knows how I work. Damn, I'm I'm not gonna choose a random one.
• 21:16
  I'm gonna choose the one that specializes in this.
• 21:19
  And so instead of having you know people flipping a coin to pick a an accountant,
• 21:24
  you know, yes, it's a niche, so that you you you narrow it,
• 21:27
  but you are number one choice for that niche.
• 21:30
  And and so I it's probably one of the mo the the most common advice I give
• 21:36
  to to companies is Dare to niche down,
• 21:39
  dare to specialize, dare to stand out.
• 21:41
  If I was gonna open a pizza parlor,
• 21:43
  I would do, you know, I'm in Switzerland,
• 21:45
  so I would do, I don't know, Chicago pizza.
• 21:48
  Because then the choice is should I do one of the normal pizzas or should
• 21:52
  I do Chicago pizza? And it and it,
• 21:54
  you know, so you it's not for everybody.
• 21:56
  But you stand out. And if you stand out enough,
• 21:59
  so let's look at energy drinks.
• 22:01
  Give me three brands of energy drinks.
• 22:03
  You got our monster, you got what is that the r Red Bull and I don't know,
• 22:09
  ~ Sprite Ultra.
• 22:10
  So I think you're you're
• 22:12
  I think you're the first one ever to not put Red Bull first.
• 22:16
  Ha ha ha ha ha.
• 22:17
  So usually it's Red Bull paws monster paws.
• 22:21
  I can't find a third one.
• 22:23
  Yes, that's I
• 22:24
  don't drink energy drinks. I mean that's that's that's my
• 22:27
  I don't
• 22:27
  I don't either, but but I think there are a hundred and ninety two brands
• 22:30
  of energy drinks. Red Bull
• 22:31
  Today. Don't
• 22:32
  bring more tomorrow.
• 22:33
  But Red Bull has a 50% market share.
• 22:35
  They own the category. They don't advertise their product anymore.
• 22:40
  They advertise crazy stuff. You know,
• 22:42
  Yeah, yeah.
• 22:43
  if you say, ~ let's talk about vacation rentals,
• 22:46
  well, it's Airbnb and then there's probably some others.
• 22:49
  But they weren't the first there.
• 22:51
  You know, Uber has become a verb.
• 22:53
  I mean, if you can actually in the energy drink space,
• 22:56
  what was interesting, there was a thing called the five.
• 22:58
  5-Hour Energy there there's some s brand that was basically an energy shot instead
• 23:01
  Yeah. Uh-huh.
• 23:04
  of the energy drink. And and Red Bull said,
• 23:06
  ooh, let's try to do that. And they couldn't do it because that
• 23:10
  had become a different category and that other company owned that category.
• 23:14
  ~
• 23:14
  Right.
• 23:15
  and so if you can create something that is that is that is different
• 23:20
  and special that has a, you know,
• 23:21
  is your own category, that's a very powerful position.
• 23:24
  And that's worth, you know,
• 23:26
  Nishing down, risk. You'd rather have a few people that really are crazy about
• 23:30
  you than a whole crowd of people that don't really care.
• 23:33
  Then they'll they'll pick you
• 23:33
  Yes, yes, yes.
• 23:35
  because you're cheaper or something,
• 23:36
  and then they'll switch to someone else.
• 23:37
  But if you're doing something special,
• 23:40
  you know, I I land on a company that says we specialize in services
• 23:43
  for independent consultants with white beards with a cat that live in Switzerland.
• 23:47
  I think, ooh, wow, that's for me.
• 23:49
  and I don't even know what they're selling.
• 23:51
  Yeah, right. Yeah,
• 23:52
  Yeah.
• 23:54
  I was I was I was thinking and I'm wondering,
• 23:57
  do you guide people in that? Because you you talked about two things.
• 24:00
  You talked about, you know, niching down,
• 24:02
  which is you know, which is one thing and it's a a bold move,
• 24:05
  as you pointed out, but you also talked about the need for differentiation.
• 24:08
  You know, and niching down can be a differentiation strategy,
• 24:12
  but you know, but encouraging butterflies,
• 24:15
  you know, to
• 24:16
  ~ visit your house every every you know every spring,
• 24:19
  that's a different level of differentiation.
• 24:21
  That is intentional. Is
• 24:23
  Yeah. So
• 24:23
  that part of typically part of the strategy or do you go to or let me
• 24:28
  let me allow you to answer that.
• 24:30
  No, no, but
• 24:31
  so the the thing is so so what I did is I I came up with ~ some canvases.
• 24:35
  So you have a canvas, you put post-its and you ask her answer questions about your
• 24:39
  customer first, sort of try to forget about your company and you know get
• 24:43
  to get to know your customer. And I find that Companies know their customers
• 24:46
  a lot better than they think. and then there's a framework where you put
• 24:49
  you you put these elements into a into a sequence for the story.
• 24:53
  And so often companies have, you know.
• 24:56
  There is an interesting story there.
• 24:57
  They just don't know how to tell it.
• 24:59
  And they don't necessarily
• 24:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 25:00
  have to change what they're doing.
• 25:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 25:03
  But often if the if the story doesn't hold up,
• 25:06
  it's sort of the symptom of something else that doesn't quite hold up.
• 25:10
  You know, if you can't create that interesting story,
• 25:12
  I mean, then either you're not talking to the right people or you're
• 25:15
  not creating the right output or something,
• 25:18
  you're and and so.
• 25:19
  And then you know we can come up with a with a different view.
• 25:22
  So some companies will come and say,
• 25:24
  you know, damn, you know, that's what's important for them.
• 25:27
  And you tweak, you tweak their offer just a little bit,
• 25:30
  and it becomes ~ it becomes something something different.
• 25:34
  And you don't necessarily have to be revolutionary and have this a crazy thing that
• 25:39
  no one's ever seen. It's really just a it can be a posture,
• 25:42
  it can be a promise. You know,
• 25:44
  when you say,
• 25:44
  Hey, we arrive on time. That's not,
• 25:48
  you know, you don't need tech or things.
• 25:50
  You just need a commitment and you know,
• 25:53
  and ~ and a promise, and that and that's already ~ that's already different.
• 25:58
  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
• 26:00
  You know what I love about that approach is ~ you know,
• 26:03
  there are so many electricians and lawn care professionals and that sort of thing.
• 26:06
  And, you know, what your approach does is it takes them out of the commodity space.
• 26:11
  You know what I'm saying? And so when they're going back and they're looking
• 26:14
  at pricing, they're not necessarily pricing directly,
• 26:16
  you know, to their, you know, to their competition.
• 26:19
  They're they're pricing based on our own space,
• 26:21
  you know, especially when they're recognizing that space.
• 26:23
  I I absolutely love that approach.
• 26:25
  We did that with the
• 26:25
  Yeah, I mean, I think
• 26:26
  that that's the very dangerous.
• 26:28
  If you're a commodity, people will choose you over price and then
• 26:30
  Yeah.
• 26:31
  there'll be a fight pro you know,
• 26:32
  price a price war, and all it does is that you know everyone loses out
• 26:37
  and you you know, you're you it's a race to the bottom.
• 26:40
  Race to the bottom. Mm-hmm.
• 26:43
  you know, sometimes there's these there's these stories like there was
• 26:46
  in this chic Swiss Alp ~ ski resort,
• 26:50
  the guy had these cashmere sweaters and you know he had
• 26:54
  Extra inventory and didn't what to do.
• 26:55
  So, you know, he multiplied the price by 10,
• 26:58
  put a sign saying the most expensive s sweaters in the world,
• 27:01
  and he sold them out.
• 27:01
  Mm-hmm.
• 27:02
  and so so you know, why do people buy things is is complicated.
• 27:07
  and and if you can make feel
• 27:10
  I I I did my MBA in Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh.
• 27:14
  And I got there for a three-week session.
• 27:16
  And I went to the ATM to get some dollars.
• 27:19
  And I put the wrong code twice and it blocked my card.
• 27:23
  And I was there for three weeks.
• 27:24
  And I said, Damn. I walked
• 27:26
  Yeah.
• 27:27
  away from the ATM. I probably did five steps.
• 27:30
  My phone rang and said,
• 27:32
  You're in Pittsburgh, your card got blocked.
• 27:34
  This is, you know, Visa Zurich.
• 27:36
  How can we help?
• 27:37
  Mm-hmm.
• 27:37
  it was a person.
• 27:38
  Yeah. And I thought, wow. And they solved my problem.
• 27:40
  Wow.
• 27:42
  So what it was was fraud control
• 27:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 27:45
  to say, this guy in Geneva, his card was blocked in Pittsburgh,
• 27:48
  what's going on? But instead of saying,
• 27:50
  This is the card police, are you really,
• 27:53
  you know, John Elbing? It's, hey,
• 27:55
  how can we help? And and
• 27:56
  Right, right.
• 27:58
  and I I I sort of always remember that.
• 28:00
  That was, you know, 20 years ago,
• 28:01
  but it felt like someone got it right.
• 28:04
  You know, marketing
• 28:04
  Yes.
• 28:05
  is everything you do. It's how you answer the phone,
• 28:08
  how you open the door, what your shop smells like,
• 28:11
  what you know, you know it's all that.
• 28:13
  It's not your logo, it's not your colors,
• 28:15
  it's it's how you interact with the world.
• 28:16
  The experience. Yeah.
• 28:19
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That yeah. That that exper how the world experiences you.
• 28:25
  ~ I love that. One of the one of the intro and you've worked with startups,
• 28:29
  so I think this question should be applicable.
• 28:31
  One of the things I've noticed ~ you know,
• 28:33
  with starting companies is that the customer often the customer that
• 28:38
  we envision that we're building our product for isn't always the customer that
• 28:42
  ends up being our primary customer.
• 28:44
  And so in creating the story with a startup,
• 28:48
  how does that process go since you don't necessarily know who that
• 28:51
  end user's gotta be?
• 28:53
  So yeah, so it's not you know,
• 28:54
  it's not it's more more art than science in the sense that you're sort
• 28:58
  of working on your best guess.
• 29:00
  And it doesn't mean you can only have one story.
• 29:03
  You know, at the beginning with a startup,
• 29:05
  it's not necessarily that they're buying,
• 29:07
  you know, a Super Bowl ad. It's more like they're gonna contact different,
• 29:12
  you know, different types of companies or different in types of individuals,
• 29:15
  or you know,
• 29:16
  association, you know, trade associations or groups or resellers
• 29:20
  and all these different methods.
• 29:22
  ~
• 29:22
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 29:25
  Often I find that the the the value proposition piles up.
• 29:28
  You know, you can you can have the end user will benefit from
• 29:35
  the the the person that decides using the service that was that was delivered by
• 29:40
  An intermediary, it was built by the thing that was,
• 29:43
  you know, and so if if you want to convince,
• 29:45
  you know, the investor, you know,
• 29:47
  you're not gonna say this is gonna bring you a lot of money.
• 29:49
  It's you know, we have people that are,
• 29:52
  you know, we're really delivering something that they're gonna pay for.
• 29:55
  And I can I can feel that. So so often you can make a story that
• 30:00
  one this recognition part is often identity.
• 30:04
  aspiration and challenge.
• 30:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:06
  But sometimes you can make the ~ the identity pretty a little bit vague
• 30:10
  and it's more about the aspiration.
• 30:12
  And then
• 30:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:13
  a lot of people fit into that aspiration,
• 30:15
  sort of like the Nike thing, where you sort of say,
• 30:18
  you know, we work with people that want to solve this problem.
• 30:21
  And then suddenly it's the grandmothers that,
• 30:23
  you know, that react and not the the young kids.
• 30:27
  But
• 30:27
  Yeah.
• 30:28
  ~ but then again you have to try.
• 30:30
  And then and then if it doesn't work,
• 30:32
  you you can you can try again.
• 30:35
  You know, startups. ~ I think the most frustrating I've had is is things where
• 30:41
  the the ob the audience is obvious,
• 30:44
  the need is obvious, they're screaming to have it,
• 30:48
  and somehow it doesn't work. And you think,
• 30:50
  damn, you know, I have this one startup.
• 30:52
  That helps you write your will.
• 30:54
  Uh-huh.
• 30:55
  In Switzerland at least, if you want to write a will,
• 30:57
  it's very there's there's crazy laws,
• 31:00
  protections, and things. And you have to go to see a notary.
• 31:02
  It costs you probably $3,000 to write this will.
• 31:05
  And two years later it's going to be obsolete because something happened
• 31:09
  and it's a crazy thing and all that.
• 31:11
  So they created this platform for like 300 bucks.
• 31:13
  You can not only write your will,
• 31:15
  it goes through all the steps online,
• 31:17
  and then it and then you
• 31:19
  You pay $50 a year to at any time you can update it,
• 31:22
  you know, because you divorced
• 31:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:24
  or you whatever it is, kind of thing.
• 31:25
  And they used it, you know, they you know,
• 31:27
  they looked and they said 87% of people s think that,
• 31:30
  you know, having a will is really,
• 31:32
  really important. Only 20% actually do it.
• 31:35
  You know, it's because it's too complicated and too expensive.
• 31:38
  And nobody does it. And
• 31:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:40
  it, you know, it could be something like,
• 31:42
  well, writing a will is is scary.
• 31:45
  And so, yes, if you ask people why they don't write their will,
• 31:48
  they'll say it's complicated and expensive.
• 31:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:50
  But it might be just that they don't want to face the idea that they'll die someday.
• 31:54
  And
• 31:54
  Mm.
• 31:55
  so you can have the, you know,
• 31:56
  it's the right story, but then there's something missing,
• 32:00
  and that's something that has to be worked through to figure out how do you,
• 32:04
  you know, they can bring people in with the right story,
• 32:06
  Mm-hmm.
• 32:06
  but then then to get them to to go all the way through it,
• 32:10
  is, you know.
• 32:11
  And sometimes frustrating.
• 32:12
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that's that's painful.
• 32:15
  That's painful. I've I've I've seen that.
• 32:17
  You know, it's it's I was gonna ask you earlier.
• 32:19
  It's it's like, you know, you you have a a technology,
• 32:22
  you know, and you understand the technology,
• 32:24
  you understand the benefit to people,
• 32:26
  et cetera, et cetera, but people don't really understand that they need
• 32:29
  the technology and it's just like,
• 32:31
  ~ it's right here, kid just eat.
• 32:34
  You know, sometimes there are problems out there that people don't see as problems.
• 32:39
  They see
• 32:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 32:41
  they see them as, well, you know,
• 32:42
  life sucks sometimes. So they go 10 times around the block to look
• 32:46
  for a parking space. That's just life.
• 32:48
  So if you come with a solution to say,
• 32:50
  hey, we have a way to find the parking space,
• 32:53
  no one's going on Google to say,
• 32:54
  how can I find parking spaces faster?
• 32:57
  Because it it doesn't seem like a solvable problem.
• 33:01
  Right, right.
• 33:01
  So you bring
• 33:02
  in these new solutions, you have to sort of educate them,
• 33:05
  you know, that, hey, this is something we can actually actually work on.
• 33:09
  And that's that's that's quite a process.
• 33:11
  You know.
• 33:11
  to tell
• 33:12
  you, I that's that's that's funny you say that because like for the first time like
• 33:16
  ever I went to a city I don't normally go to and I was meeting someone
• 33:20
  for lunch and like on the on the app we use Waze it actually had like
• 33:24
  you know where parking was and I for the first time I used this thing.
• 33:28
  And I I was I was so happy with it.
• 33:31
  It was like I'm gonna do this again you know and the
• 33:33
  Yeah.
• 33:33
  funny thing is the person I met she ended up parking like
• 33:37
  A block and a half away. She paid like twenty bucks for the day for parking.
• 33:41
  And I was just like, ~ you're gonna park like right next to the restaurant.
• 33:44
  See? So someone someone saw saw you.
• 33:45
  Yes, yes. We don't
• 33:46
  we don't know that we need it.
• 33:47
  We don't know things are available.
• 33:48
  That's amazing. Do we have time
• 33:49
  And then when
• 33:50
  ~ to to walk through perhaps at a high level what this what this process would look
• 33:55
  like? So I am a I'm a, you know,
• 33:57
  ten year old company. I've been doing what I I I do.
• 34:01
  you know, I have a decent, you know,
• 34:02
  customer base and that sort of thing.
• 34:04
  But, you know, like you talked about the the gardening company,
• 34:07
  it's like, you know, we're not really we don't really have that story.
• 34:10
  You know, especially when we look at,
• 34:12
  you know, passing that passing the idea of who we are to that next generation
• 34:15
  or enhancing our market position or,
• 34:17
  you know, getting in deeper with our current customer base.
• 34:20
  What is what does that process look like for working with you?
• 34:23
  So the first the first step is you sort of have to realize that.
• 34:27
  And and you know, when things you know,
• 34:29
  you you keep going, keep going.
• 34:30
  you know, you don't necessarily think,
• 34:32
  we need to work on the story, you know.
• 34:33
  So again, I'm in that position of saying,
• 34:36
  you know, working on your story,
• 34:37
  and you know, all the companies in the world would benefit from this,
• 34:40
  but no one, you know, they don't necessarily know that that's a an issue.
• 34:43
  So I find that there are there are situations where it's a little bit more obvious.
• 34:46
  there's
• 34:47
  product coming out, there was there was a merger,
• 34:49
  there, you know, there's an MBO,
• 34:51
  you know, market the management buyout,
• 34:53
  there's there's something happening where they have to say,
• 34:55
  okay, now we're going to reposition.
• 34:57
  but I but I found that it you know it also works with you know companies that
• 35:01
  are just that are just ongoing and can but they can they can step back.
• 35:04
  So how it works is
• 35:06
  So what I'm coming out with now is this an analysis of your online presence to say,
• 35:11
  what is the story you tell today?
• 35:12
  To make it a little bit obvious,
• 35:14
  to say, well, is that the best,
• 35:16
  is that the best story you can tell?
• 35:18
  Is that really the story you want to tell?
• 35:20
  Yeah.
• 35:20
  ~ and if it sort of is, then we can work on on making it better,
• 35:25
  you know, improving your website and things like and things like that.
• 35:28
  Yeah.
• 35:29
  you know, with adding recognition and adding a f ~ projection,
• 35:32
  but somehow the core story is there.
• 35:34
  But otherwise, then then there's this process.
• 35:37
  And so we we go through these canvases where we hopefully we can
• 35:42
  get the the customer-facing team.
• 35:45
  In some of companies that are a little bit bigger,
• 35:47
  there's
• 35:47
  Mm-hmm.
• 35:47
  there's marketing and sales, and they're at odds with each other.
• 35:51
  If the
• 35:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 35:51
  if the client doesn't sign, the salespeople will say,
• 35:54
  You, you know, you don't give us good leads,
• 35:56
  and the marketing
• 35:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 35:57
  team say, hey, you can't even transform our great leads,
• 36:00
  kind of thing. So if you can get them
• 36:01
  Yeah.
• 36:02
  together and they build the story together,
• 36:04
  that's the story you know, the marketing will sell will will say.
• 36:09
  And it's the same story that then the that when the sales takes over,
• 36:12
  and there and and people you know feel that coherence.
• 36:16
  You know, if they go on the website and then the salesperson says something
• 36:18
  different and
• 36:19
  You know, that then they're confused.
• 36:21
  And then you know, they're on the link,
• 36:22
  the LinkedIn posts, you know, say something different and all that.
• 36:26
  So I work on this sort of n narrative coherence of of the story.
• 36:31
  ~ and
• 36:31
  Mm-hmm.
• 36:32
  so then we go through, you know,
• 36:34
  one company we spent 18 hours,
• 36:36
  nine times two hours, eight people online in different countries,
• 36:40
  you know, going through, and then they would go back and test an idea
• 36:44
  of a story with.
• 36:45
  with existing customers and then come back and say this and then come
• 36:48
  up with a thing and then say, that's a great story,
• 36:50
  but it looks like what our custom you know,
• 36:52
  our competitors say too. What
• 36:54
  Right.
• 36:55
  how can we make the story, you know,
• 36:56
  more unique? And then we go through until really they really have a core story that
• 37:01
  says, okay, now we can build on that.
• 37:04
  And then
• 37:04
  Right.
• 37:05
  they still have to go back and you know update their website and update their pitch
• 37:08
  deck and their sales ~ stuff and all that.
• 37:11
  So so and you know so there's j just there's really I don't feel that I've invented
• 37:16
  something crazy new, but it's the it's the it's the systematic.
• 37:21
  It's we
• 37:21
  Mm-hmm.
• 37:21
  go through saying, okay, we ask the questions,
• 37:24
  we go through the things, we you know,
• 37:26
  elaborate. So what is their aspiration?
• 37:28
  Is it just very practical or is it something more aspirational?
• 37:32
  Or what is what are the problems?
• 37:34
  Which one is more important? What what is the vocabulary they use?
• 37:38
  know and how how how does this match what you're offering and we go through
• 37:40
  all this and we and we come up with a story and then they they tell
• 37:44
  the story and feel how they feel you know and then and and that story that comes
• 37:49
  out of that process you know creates you know team alignment and and
• 37:53
  and has this foundation that then they can create campaign you know marketing
• 37:58
  can create campaigns they can they can talk to the their customers they
• 38:02
  And you know and and and that that that's a kind of a powerful powerful process.
• 38:07
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, that is,
• 38:10
  that is. If s if someone wants to I guess learn more about that,
• 38:13
  I mean what's what's a what's a great resource?
• 38:15
  So my company's name is Standpoint because it's so important to take
• 38:18
  the other person's standpoint.
• 38:20
  my website is standpoint.ch. I'm in Switzerland,
• 38:22
  but I work with you know companies ~ around the world.
• 38:25
  if you go onto ~ onto the website,
• 38:28
  first of all, you can get a free 30-minute consultation,
• 38:31
  talk about your brand, talk about your thing,
• 38:33
  you get some insights around your story.
• 38:35
  I have some tools. One is a tool that can help you build a tagline.
• 38:39
  And actually by building your tagline,
• 38:41
  you go through what is what's important,
• 38:43
  but you know, different formats,
• 38:44
  different things, and you know,
• 38:45
  it comes up and it already shows a little bit of a hint of you know,
• 38:49
  tagline isn't just ~ yeah, we're the best.
• 38:51
  It it
• 38:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 38:52
  you know, it can really, when it's well done,
• 38:55
  it can really be just the the teaser for you for what you're offered.
• 38:59
  and I have a few things coming up like that,
• 39:01
  but to start with, just go down to the bottom of any page and just
• 39:04
  get 30 minutes with ~ with me.
• 39:06
  And and see what we can do.
• 39:08
  So we so we have a tagline generator,
• 39:10
  we've got some other tools, and standpoint.ch,
• 39:13
  is that right?
• 39:13
  Exactly.
• 39:14
  Fantastic, fantastic. so I've got I've got one more question for you.
• 39:18
  Okay. So the name of the show is The Relentless Pursuit of Winning.
• 39:22
  winning is something that you know we can all define for ourselves.
• 39:25
  The challenge that we have sometimes is maintaining that relentless pursuit.
• 39:28
  How would you advise our audience on how to maintain that?
• 39:33
  Relentless pursuit.
• 39:35
  Yeah, one one of my my issues personally is the relentless part.
• 39:38
  I'll, you know, write a book and things and then I'll go on to the next project
• 39:42
  and then build this and things.
• 39:44
  And you know, I'm I'm not really good at actually ~ doing that.
• 39:48
  I'll I'll do videos on on LinkedIn and then you know,
• 39:51
  I've done like
• 39:51
  dozen of them and then suddenly I realize it's been six months
• 39:54
  and they haven't anymore. but for me it it's it's about
• 39:57
  somehow understanding enough about what you're doing to build something that's
• 40:01
  coherent with who you are and what you ~ what you want to accomplish.
• 40:07
  You know, I used to have a well-paying banking job kind of thing,
• 40:10
  and now I earn, you know, a third of that,
• 40:12
  but I'm ten times more happy. And I,
• 40:14
  you know, I I'm involved and there's this idea that you can
• 40:19
  you you you you understand who you're helping,
• 40:21
  how you can help, and how you can get value out of that.
• 40:24
  And it's sort of learn to love the process,
• 40:27
  the the the job itself. You know,
• 40:29
  sometimes you sort of feel like you'll get the result,
• 40:31
  you know, way at the end. And you know,
• 40:34
  okay, you're willing to suffer the whole route,
• 40:36
  you know, to get that thing at the end.
• 40:38
  ~
• 40:39
  But there's no real end. And so it's all about the route.
• 40:42
  And it's all about
• 40:42
  Mm-hmm.
• 40:42
  the journey. And so to be building the the right journey,
• 40:46
  I think makes then that relentlessness much easier because the journey itself
• 40:51
  is part of the is part of the winning.
• 40:53
  It's not it's not yeah.
• 40:53
  Building the journey, building the journey.
• 40:55
  Yes.
• 40:57
  That's it, that's that's great.
• 40:58
  That's great. I I I love I love that idea.
• 41:01
  I hear ~ like I guess, you know,
• 41:03
  it's kind of a conversation, you know,
• 41:04
  sometimes the the journey is more interesting,
• 41:06
  you know, than the destination.
• 41:08
  And you know, just being willing to go with the journey,
• 41:10
  how it goes, is is one of the ~ one of the things that I'm starting to enjoy,
• 41:15
  you know, where I've spent like thirty years,
• 41:17
  you know, for trying to force everything.
• 41:19
  It's just like
• 41:19
  There's so much more out there,
• 41:21
  you know, but just take the time to step back and be curious.
• 41:23
  You know, every day, you know,
• 41:25
  it's just like, hey, it's one more day.
• 41:26
  Let's what are we gonna do today?
• 41:28
  You know? ~
• 41:29
  Yeah,
• 41:30
  you know, curiosity is a be I I mean,
• 41:32
  I'm surprised it didn't come up earlier because I mean empathy,
• 41:35
  curiosity, this this connection and you know,
• 41:37
  yeah. Couldn't agree more.
• 41:38
  Absolutely,
• 41:38
  absolutely. John, is there anything else you want to share with
• 41:41
  our audience before we call it a day?
• 41:42
  you know, you know, you know, they say,
• 41:44
  you know, when you have a hammer,
• 41:45
  everything looks like a nail. So,
• 41:47
  you know, sometimes I feel that everything looks like a story.
• 41:50
  Uh-huh.
• 41:51
  but also feel that this this idea,
• 41:53
  you know, if you go back and go to your website,
• 41:55
  try to have a quick lobotomy and forget what you do,
• 41:59
  go onto the website and say, Who is this for?
• 42:00
  And if you don't, if you're not,
• 42:02
  if you're not sure, or ask your mother,
• 42:04
  you know, and if you know she's not sure.
• 42:06
  That can be a f an an a sort of easy first step for for that ~ for
• 42:11
  for that first recognition of the you know who's your ideal client and
• 42:15
  how can you talk about them so they feel,
• 42:17
  ~ that's for me. And that's ~ that's a first,
• 42:20
  you know, not easy, but I mean it's the it's a first step that can
• 42:24
  can be pretty powerful.
• 42:25
  Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I I think that's so important so important.
• 42:28
  I it's it's funny. I I talk to people about building a website.
• 42:32
  It's just like if people can't recognize themselves in your website,
• 42:35
  you know, immediately they're gonna go someplace else.
• 42:38
  So that's that's absolute gold.
• 42:39
  John, thank you so much. this has been a wonderful conversation.
• 42:42
  I I love storytelling and I I love the way that you presented it.
• 42:46
  This was this was absolutely fantastic.
• 42:48
  Well, thank you. It's it's been a pleasure.
• 42:50
  And I hope that our listeners got as much out of it as I did.
• 42:54
  Awesome,
• 42:54
  awesome. And folks, we do hope that you enjoyed this episode
• 42:58
  of the Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast.
• 43:00
  We'll catch you next time.