Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Beyond No-Contact: High Conflict Skills for Family Relationships
Transcript
- Megan Hunter Welcome to It's All Your Fault on TrueStory FM, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you with the most challenging human interactions, those involving someone with a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddy. Bill Eddy Hi, everybody Megan Hunter We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute and ConflictInfluencers. com. where we focus on training, consulting, coaching, classes, and anything to do with how to handle high conflict people, high conflict situations. Welcome listeners. Thank you for joining us today. In today's episode, we are going to analyze Oprah's conversation on her YouTube channel on why adult children cut ties with parents. A topic that clinical research now shows affects millions of families. Her conversation with Dr. Joshua Coleman, a psychologist and author of Rules of Estrangement. uh was very uh inspiring, I should say, and it got a lot of press. So let's break down today what's happening socially, psychologically, and emotionally, and does high conflict have anything to do with it? Who's at fault? Is anyone at fault? So, Bill, this video um that Oprah put out is is really about why adult children are cutting ties with their parents, which is kind of a rather new phenomenon. Um with language that kind of was never used in the past. I I don't know about you. I I can I I suspect that you didn't grow up with uh the concepts of going no contact with your parents. That wasn't something that I grew up with. Bill Eddy Not an option, not even a thought, not even a thought. Megan Hunter Not an optimal. Right. Right, exactly. It seems to me kind of the norm now. I think if you asked my adult kids, um, you know, some of them might know about it, some might not, and no one's gotten no contact with me yet. So That's good news. But um I think it is more of a norm for uh the younger generation. So how did we get here? And is it a good thing? That's what we're gonna talk about today. So, you know, our background in family law has given us a lot of history and insight and information about estrangement and alienation in the divorce context. family law. It's a lot more common there, or at least was in the past, than just out in ordinary society in the non-divorce world. So I guess more with an intact family. So now we're looking at perhaps a similar problem, maybe not, from a different angle. Adult children who are going no contact with their parents So in the first part of the video, Oprah notes that one-third of Americans go no contact. And she frames this as a cultural shift. So does that number seem about right to you? Too low, too high? What's the research say, Bill? Bill Eddy Well, what's interesting is the current issue of psychology today, the magazine. Of a November-December issue includes an article called Healing Family Splits and has some statistics. Megan Hunter Oh, nice. Bill Eddy So, and they match what Oprah is talking about. So one of the articles in there says in the US, 26% of adults reported estrangement from their father and 6% from their mother. So you put those together, you got 32%. There's your third third of adults Notably, though, it says, the U. S. study also found that most estranged adult children eventually reconnect. eighty one percent with their mothers and sixty nine percent with their fathers. The data suggests estrangement is often temporary mather m rather than permanent, and in many ways that's good news. But there's a lot to discuss why this happens. So Megan Hunter Yes. So let's let's kind of um let's start with uh kind of where Oprah and Dr. Coleman started, that being a rather new phenomenon. Um They noted that the old values and concept of honor your father and mother are now a thing of the past, which, you know, I think shouldn't be a surprise with the high rates of divorce and just the disintegration of the family and or I I don't know if that's the right word to use, but um the the I I guess the disintegration of that core family unit, right? Um, there's ancillary problems that come with divorce like alienation and just different problems. Empowerment of children and disempowerment of children. the rise of social awareness about mental health issues. In fact, Dr. Coleman said that the number one reason stated in letters to him from people who've done this is protecting my mental health. So Bill, we'll talk about a lot of reasons, but are we creating a weaker society? Or are people evolving, on the other hand, to become more self-aware and healthier? Bill Eddy I think I think it's a problematic direction. And in a sense, we're in from many directions. Creating a weaker society with fewer conflict resolution skills. So that seems to be, in my mind, many reasons why You know, it's always easier to just give up on somebody than to kind of struggle through. And we see that in a lot of the high-conflict divorce cases. So that's one factor is we're weakening our conflict resolution skills, which can is unsustainable. You can't have a society without conflict resolution. And everybody needs to know how to do this. To me, another big factor, and I talked about this in that interview I did with Andrew Huberman. That most people don't talk about. I think smaller family size is part of the issue. You know, I was one of four kids. Um, you were one of four kids, right? Megan Hunter Yeah. Bill Eddy And so and I had cousins that were eight kids, um, and it it wasn't Something you were part of this family, and you could kind of back off from so-and-so a bit without having to reject the family, reject a parent. do all of that. So there there was a lot of having to be flexible. And, you know, the great Megan Hunter And I would add, sorry to interrupt, that all on the flip side, there's a lot of support Right? Bill Eddy Yeah Megan Hunter My I mean, my mom was one of eleven children, my dad was one of eight. My mom was the youngest, my dad was the oldest um in their respective families. I had seventy-five first cousins. And I I recall my mom talking about Uh having so much support from her siblings. Bill Eddy Yeah Megan Hunter They didn't have sibling rivalry. They didn't uh have crosswords with each other. They were each other's best friends and they supported each other. So Um, I I hadn't thought of that, Bill, and I I think that's that's there there's something to that, the the smaller families. Bill Eddy Because in smaller families the relationships are more intense. And so if you're the only child and your parents are having a conflict, There's a good chance they're coming to you. In the larger families, in the the more tight-knit communities, um Parents went to their neighbors, went to their brother own brother or sister to complain about their spouse. It wasn't that all marriages were happy and and then now with divorce they're not. It's always been up and down, up and down, up and down. But another factor, I think, is mobility. See, I see this in this kind of bigger way that society mobility, you can leave. Megan Hunter Yeah. Bill Eddy You can leave the state of your parents, the country of your parents. You can really get far away if you want. So smaller families, more mobility. Um, but another factor that I didn't realize until I was writing our new world of adult bullies, and that is Bullies used to be on the fringe of families, on the fringe of communities. It's like, if you don't behave, you're not going to have friends. What's happening today is with social media, bullies are finding each other online and reinforcing their bullying behavior and their distorted perceptions. And so what's happening is people are forming new teams, new families that sometimes are quite dysfunctional. And then that team or that new social media family says how rotten your parents were. There's that emotional pull. And I remember as a kid, you know, kids talk about their parents, and teenagers complain about their parents forever. But you don't leave the family. You just vent to your friends, then you come home. And you find ways. to get along. So this new element, I think, of social media communities in the in the um Our new world of adult billies book, I call it an anti-community, that people are forming anti-communities today where the purpose of the community is to be against somebody else Megan Hunter Wow. Bill Eddy And in many cases, that's people's parents. And like you were saying, Megan, about mental health, often these communities talk about mental health and how it's all the parents' fault And so you're right to cut off that that evil mom or terrible dad. Megan Hunter Because you're a victim. Bill Eddy And so yes, you're a victim. Megan Hunter You're their victim. Bill Eddy Oh, we're we're really in a victim society right now, I think. Megan Hunter Yeah, I think that's a good idea. Bill Eddy And in many ways, high conflict people see themselves as victims, and yet they're often perpetrators of domestic violence. of child abuse, of other bad behavior, and the people doing that feel like they're victims, so they're justified in doing that. And then they get social media anti-communities. that reinforce that justification. And so so we kind of have this push-pull. And to me it really comes down to we've gotta have more skills. and also be much less judgmental about other people and think in terms of problem solving. And a and a lot of this in divorce cases, you know, child comes home from visitation or or weekend with dad and It says, you know, dad wouldn't look at my picture. And mom says, oh, dad's a jerk. I always thought that. Or Mom says, well, maybe show it again an hour later when he's not as distracted or he might see that We're not teaching problem solving, we're teaching blame. And to me, that's what we need to shift. Megan Hunter Yeah. Yeah. I and and and really what we're talking about here, Bill, is the the US experience or the Western experience, I should say, you know, because I think we've both observed, I know personally I've observed, many from um outside the US who have a very strong familial culture. And the parents are still the anchors. Bill Eddy Mm-hmm. Megan Hunter And the children from the time they're born through the end of their lives know what their role is. Um, and they do respect their parents and honor their parents. Bill Eddy Mm-hmm. Megan Hunter And it it seems to function well for the most part, right? Bill Eddy Right. Megan Hunter It's and it's so it's For us, it's it's it's sort of needing skills. Um for other cultures, it it is the mindset, it is the culture, it is the the norm. um that you are going to always take care of your parents. And I think we flip that around in in at least in in the US society to uh you know we we look at our kids for the relationship for more of a source of strength instead of the other way around. So it's like there's this role shifting, unfortunately, um, instead of Bill Eddy Right. Megan Hunter uh you know seeing that so it would I wish we had a magic wand we could just wave and kind of get us back to that. There's there's just so so many different fractures and and different reasons and And it's it's it's like the decision to go no contact is like you said, the blaming solution. It's not the problem-solving solution. Perhaps the problem-solving solution is To um, if you want, you know, to go to therapy, go to therapy to strengthen yourself and your own resilience so that you can have a better relationship with that person or at least Bill Eddy Right. Megan Hunter try to right it's still going to depend on that other person as well but we now have this mentality that's set in cement that We just break contact. I don't need them anymore. And it's empowered, like you said, with those anti-communities. Bill Eddy Yeah. Megan Hunter But at the end of the day, are those anti-communities going to be there for you? Who's going to be there for you when you're sick? Who's going to be there for you when you're on your deathbed? Bill Eddy Right, we see Megan Hunter Are they going to be there? Sometimes they might, but usually it's family. Sometimes not. Bill Eddy Right. Well the thing about family is they're supposed to take you in regardless of everything. And an anti-community often pushes out its own members because, hey, you really made me angry. I'm I'm cutting you off now. So an anti-community is built around rejecting people, and so anti-communities are unsustainable because they reject each other. But I I want to get a kind of a footnote in here. As a therapist and dealing with high conflict, there's a small percent of parents Who really you need to get away from to get healthy. And I think of it as more like three to five percent of parents And that I've counseled people whose parents were terribly physically abusive, sexually abusive, uh verbally abusive. And to get healthy themselves, they need to get away from all those negative messages. And so there are cases where it's appropriate. But I think it's been exaggerated and that that people go, oh, well, my parents one of those horrible people. Well, what did they do? Well, they look cross-eyed, cross-eyed at me, you know, once a year. or something something like that. Megan Hunter Yeah Bill Eddy But I also want to add something. This research I I read to you, there's also research from Germany. Which is similar, and I wanted to mention says in Germany, one study found 20% of adults estranged from their father, 9% from their mother. In the US, it was uh 26% from father, 6% from mother. So Germany isn't all that different. Megan Hunter Yeah Bill Eddy But I think, again, when you're talking about culture, I think the larger families And also often religion's a factor that holds people together. And so I think of You know, I'm here not very far from Mexico. And it's interesting the the uh sense of um family and happiness in Mexico is much stronger um than in the US. And I think part of it is larger families, part of it is Catholic families. The Catholic Church really holds Mexico together more. than any church in the United States. And not promoting any specific religions, but the idea that our community supports like neighborhood centers and not being able to just change states have also helped in the past help people hang together even when they were upset with each other. So that's It's it's but but the goal to me isn't we can't rewind society. We have to teach skills. We can deal with all this if we learn the right skills. Megan Hunter Yeah, because it's just it's the wrong direction. It's the wrong direction. Bill Eddy Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Megan Hunter Um so I think about not just the breakdown of the relationship then with the adult child's parents, right? That relationship, but it has a ripple effect into into others. So I think we can talk about the most uh kind of public example of this right now is Prince Harry and and um his wife Meghan Markle. Bill Eddy Yeah. Megan Hunter Uh they're very you know their their situation is is quite public in cutting ties with in Prince Harry's case with his father, stepmother, brother, sister-in-law, and uh presumably niece and nephews. Um and on Megan's side, it's been very public knowledge of this rift be and and cutting off of her um own father and siblings. All right. So their two children now that re that removes three grandparents. So I don't know what the relationship is like between those children and their maternal grandmother, if any. I have no idea. But if so, that's just one grandparent when they could have four. Right. Bill Eddy Right, right. Megan Hunter So, you know, what does this teach children? And I I I I know your answer, Bill. It doesn't teach them about relationship skills and valuing relationships and and um conflict resolution skills. Bill Eddy I think it's so destabilizing. Um, a lot of a lot of kids, especially from high conflict divorce, because that's what I see the most. in their twenties are really uncertain about forming any relationships. And we're looking at that, you know, much later that people are getting married, if they get married, A lot of young adults saying, I'm never going to have kids. Now, I know a lot of adults years ago said that too, and then they had kids. Um, but I think I think we're seeing a fear of relationships that, you know, pushing your parents away is easy, but then there's this loss. And And a lot of that uh psychology today article talks about the the the emotional loss. Megan Hunter Muslim Living Bill Eddy It's like people aren't really happy. rejecting all these family members. Um and that's part of why eventually people do uh reconcile, but there's a loss there sometimes 10, 20, 30 years. that that people are un unstable. Megan Hunter Yeah. Bill Eddy So I think it destabilizes young adults and that they're looking for community Um, they're looking for relationships and yet frightened of relationships. And that's that's where we teach about high conflict people, and this is 10% of society, but 90% of society basically isn't preoccupied with blaming others, doesn't have all or nothing thinking. Date those people, you know? Megan Hunter Right. Bill Eddy They're out there. Megan Hunter Marrying children with those Bill Eddy Yeah, have kids with those people. That's 90% of people who can be happy. And also, you know, for high conflict people, work on yourself. And find healthy people to be around. Don't find the support group that says everybody else is at fault and we're we're victims. is find support people that say, hey, work on this, learn some skills, and you can be happier. Megan Hunter Right. Yeah, you don't have to bug out because the feelings are big. You don't have to bug out because you feel like running. Bill Eddy Yes. Megan Hunter It's that's when you have the instruction. to you know give yourself the the instruction to stay and you know just shut your mouth for a little bit sit through the feelings think about it don't cause a you know don't hash things out just you know, maybe seek help to to to have a conversation, if that means a therapist or a conflict coach or something like that. But um it doesn't need to be just cutting and running because I I feel Um, there's so much value that grandparents and extended family members can bring to young people, to these little grandchildren. And if they don't have that, where are they going to get that? Bill Eddy Ajá. Megan Hunter And it's it's it's sad. It's very similar to, you know, divorce when when um you know a child doesn't get to experience much of a relationship with with one of the parents and and grandparents. There's there's a lot of grandparent alienation um happening as well in our society. So it's you know you kind of In a way, uh extracting something valuable from a child's life, even if you don't think that grandparent or family member is a stellar human being. um you can still teach your children um how to be strong, how to manage their emotions, how to do the opposite things maybe that other family member is is exhibiting, right? Bill Eddy Right. Megan Hunter Because I think What happens eventually is that pendulum swings. You know, now we have we'll have one-third of the US population who you know, went no contact, their kids aren't getting to have a relationship with their grandparents, they're probably going to really want that when the for their kids when they're older, right? When they start having children. I I I can only assume it seems that the pendulum really swings and then they'll probably be angry at their parents for cutting off them off from their grandparents. So Bill Eddy Right. Well, a lot of this stuff is intergenerational, just like we know like domestic violence. If if you have a parent. with that. The child's going to grow up with that. You're going to have a child who may be violent or a child who may be victim of domestic violence. And then they're going to grow up and pass it on. And that's where, you know, it's interesting during divorce, we have an opportunity, because the legal system's involved, judges are involved, to put people on a better path. And I I feel very um reaffirmed or something when I have divorced clients, mom or dad, about half and half. say at the end of the divorce, you know, I feel like I'm a stronger person now because of what I've learned going through this process, because of the skills that I learned while I went through this process. Megan Hunter Yeah Bill Eddy And I think that's what we're about, you and I, especially, is teaching people skills going through divorce. So you come out actually as stronger. healthier, happier people, and your kids do too by learning managed emotions, moderate behaviors, flexible thinking, checking yourself instead of pointing the finger of blame. I think that's the only way to really turn this around. Megan Hunter And it impacts not just the family, this this impacts the workforce. Bill Eddy Yes, very much. Megan Hunter Yeah. Bill Eddy And they need this they need the same skills. And that's interesting because we started in family law. You and I trying to train professionals. Then it came to all law. And then we quickly were asked before the end of the first year by people in the workplace how can we get this training and to our human resources and our employee assistance personnel and our managers. And so that's that's a lot of what we're doing. Megan Hunter Yeah. And you and you you you you end up with, you know, if you have a workforce that's full of people who um are prone to going no contact, what's your attrition rate going to be when they get mad at you? And, you know, with that victim mentality, when they get mad at the organization and the company, as opposed to someone who's who's learned to manage their emotions have moderate behaviors, flexible thinking, and take you know own their stuff, right? And not blame, their resilience is going to be so much higher. And I I would think uh you know that it There's no doubt that that flows into their their career and having um a more stick-to-it attitude and probably makes for better leaders Bill Eddy Mm-hmm. Yeah, and they have an opportunity, just like the courts do during divorce, in the workplace, managers, human resources, etc. um leaders, owners, supervisors had the opportunity to help people get on a healthier path, help people learn skills. I I think of a woman that came for consultation and she said, I just got a new boss. I got two years to retirement and this new boss is really a high conflict person. And she persuaded me that that was true. Megan Hunter Yeah. Bill Eddy But she said I run in, I kind of hide from her and run into my own office each day. And I said, try learning ear statements, statements showing empathy, attention, or respect. When you come in the beginning of the day, pop your head in your boss's office and say, you know, how was your weekend? That was a great presentation last week, or connect with her. And after a month, she said, now I'm my boss's favorite employee. Megan Hunter Yep. Bill Eddy So teach people skills, don't just give up. But so many people don't know their skills and that that the world isn't evil, you know, that like, you know, 10% of people are high conflict people, but they're not evil. And many of them are trying to learn skills to become. We get people say, I think I'm a high conflict person. Can you teach me not to lose my job? And that's, I love it when that happens. Megan Hunter Yeah, yeah. So kind of wrapping this up, because the name of our podcast is It's All Your Fault. And sometimes we get lost in these conversations and we kind of forget that. Bill Eddy Yeah. Megan Hunter So um, I mean we've we've talked about that a bit here, but You know, relationship terminations can be a very fine line. They can come from misunderstandings, communication breakdowns, uh, distance, mobility, like you said. Sometimes an another adult sibling driving a wedge between you and your your parents, right? Bill Eddy Right Megan Hunter Um can come from a spouse's jealousy about that their spouse's relationship with his or her own parents. um or from a high conflict situation in which either the adult child has a blaming high conflict personality then very all or nothing. Let's, you know, it's my way or the highway, you don't agree with me, you're out of my life. or um a an adult child with a high conflict parent or parents who is perhaps being domineering, intrusive, vindictive. And then that adult child is just setting limits and imposing consequences. And I I I find this a lot in consultations and training is that line between am I setting a a necessary limit and imposing a necessary consequence or am I just being all or nothing? Bill Eddy Right Megan Hunter So when is it okay? Bill Eddy And that's so important, yes, because you can set little limits and have little consequences and improve relationships rather than just setting the biggest limit of all and cutting them off. Megan Hunter Nice Bill Eddy Let me add a couple thoughts that I have. I want to make sure we get in here. High conflict people with high conflict personalities, we think of as preoccupied with blaming others, all or nothing thinking, unmanaged emotions. and extreme behaviors. Many people are born with those tendencies. It's not somebody's fault. It's not their parents' fault. But some people are born that way. And you said like a young adult may have these characteristics through no fault of reasonable parents. And I've counseled many families like this. So it's important to take fault out. You know, it's all your fault. The title of our podcast is actually a joke. In other words, when people say it's all your fault, that's a problem. Megan Hunter There's a red flag Bill Eddy And so that's a red flag. Yeah. And so the idea is if you start thinking it's all somebody's fault, then you've got to check yourself Because that's part of high conflict thinking. Is that think it's all somebody's fault? It may be mostly somebody else has a problem, but always look at what you can do. What can I do to make things better? And I think that's what we're trying to do. What can we do to educate people, to try to help turn this around? So, but I want people to have empathy for high conflict people because they didn't choose to be this way. By by young adulthood, this is their personality from Genetic tendencies of birth, early childhood experience, which could be positive and make those genetic tendencies really more subdued, high conflict stuff. Or Early childhood abuse, attachment disruptions, all that may reinforce this. Plus, the larger environment is reinforcing blame and not taking responsibility. So Just having empathy, I think, for for the whole family is so important, even if you have to have little little limits and little consequences. I guess that's the goal. Megan Hunter Yeah, exactly. Good. Okay. Um, well, I think that's it's very interesting, and I hope that you our listeners are um you know, think about this in your own lives and and and uh you know what you're seeing around you and um just keep trying to influence in a positive way those those around you and Try not to encourage no contact, but to help people explore and learn new skills. So thank you for listening today. You'll find the link to the Oprah interview video along with a few resources on our website, including all of our trainings we're doing this year for new ways where you can learn, uh help. uh learn how to help clients and customers and things um learn those four big skills we talked about. And we have our conflict influencer class starting up very soon. So if you're looking for training, consultation, classes, anything to do with high conflict. uh let us know. Highconflictinstitute. com or conflictinfluencer dot com. Keep learning and practicing skills. Be kind to yourself and to others while we all try to keep the conflict small and find the missing piece.