Latest / Sukany4: The Walk and Talk Podcast / S1E3 - Ewen Turner - Outskirts of Kendal - Career, Lifestyle and Anti Racism

Transcript

S1E3 - Ewen Turner - Outskirts of Kendal - Career, Lifestyle and Anti Racism · Sukany4: The Walk and Talk Podcast

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the podcast where we chat and walk, quite literally.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Today's episode almost didn't happen.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you why.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Ewan and I agreed the time, the date, and the place to meet Costa Coffee.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, on the morning it was wet and windy, so we we sort of checked in with each other and we agreed that we would still go ahead with the podcast.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: And we both set off on our merry way to Costa Coffee.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Lo and behold, we get to Costa Coffee and we realize that we've each gone to different towns.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: And we were standing outside a different Costa Coffee.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Eventually we did find each other, thankfully, because it was a really great walk, it was a really great chat, and despite the rain, you know, we had we had fun.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Ewan has had one of the most fascinating and varied careers you can imagine, from working with young people to writing for the world's largest online mountain magazine.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Mountain biking magazine, rather.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: And now he's working as a facilitator with Anti-Racist Cumbria.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Ewan's journey has been very colourful, and trust me, there's plenty more in between as we delve into that today.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: So grab your headphones and come along with us on this wet and windy July day as we walk through a farm on the outskirts of Kendall.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: The weather might have been wild, but so was our conversation.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't want to miss it.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Ewan!
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_05: Hiya!
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we made it same town, same time, same place.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, there was it was all perfect.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_05: No problems at all.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: The main thing is we got here.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um thank you for joining me on this walk.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's quite alright.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll just make it up as we go along in terms of the route.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And as always, it was a nice um windy, rainy day in Kendall for July.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we like.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: Normal July weather.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: I saw a meme the other day actually.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: It said um July is taking inspiration from October.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, October vibes.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: So how are you doing?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: How's business?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: How's work?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um things alright, yeah.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's summer, as you as you said.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: It will soon be the school holidays and we take some time off.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: So that'd be nice.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: Another couple of weeks of work things.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then spend time with the boys.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, and then obviously the sun will come out and we'll have a nice time and some will be.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Living the dreams, skipping in the fields.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Cumbrian summer.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: So have you always lived in Cumbria?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Are you Cumbrian born and bred?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: You might better tell from my accent.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, some people disguise it.
• 3:12
  unknown: Yeah.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna give you my Cumbria accent.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: So where where do you hail from?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: Hail from.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good one.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um Peterborough.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I did not know that.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, well there we go.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: How long did you live there for then?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh 18 years.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I left for uni.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Never to return.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: Never no, very much.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, apologies to anyone um from Peterborough.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well that's just social migration, isn't it?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's how it it happens with universities, I think.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people tend to either stay in their university town or go somewhere else.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, yeah.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: I move north.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: Never to return.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: And did you say your parents live in Cumbria then?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they followed us up.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: They followed you.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's so nice.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: Eventually.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's really nice.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, once you um produce children.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: Well maybe, yeah.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oh that's really nice though.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: So everyone's together.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so how did you get into what you do?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, this is always complicated for what I do.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: You did at uni.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: Well, to make money, that sort of thing.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what did you do at uni?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start there.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, um, I did a natural sciences degree.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, did you?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: Cheers.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh geography and geology.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well that does make sense because you are very outdoorsy, aren't you?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'm quite outdoorsy, yeah.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, on brand.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: On brand, yeah.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: I like it.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it was it was kind of in the making from the start.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, maybe, yeah, yeah.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And um, how did you find the course?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, that's like that's a really long time ago now.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_03: I had a really good time at university.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's my answer as well.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: I had the best life experiences.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, um, yeah, went like climbing a lot, did outdoor things, did music, um, that sort of stuff.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then there was the degree.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, you came back with the degree.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, which is like that was the it facilitated that lifestyle for a bit.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so yeah.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then what did you do straight after unique?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Did you go straight into work?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, I moved, that's when I moved to Cumbria.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I finished and came to work at an outdoor centre.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: Ah.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: So um it was uh like a local authority centre.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: Residential centre, so all that sort of outward bound style.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like taking groups.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so kids come on residentials, right?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: We do outdoor activities, um, all part of their sort of personal development, confidence building, yeah, all of that that sort of thing.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: So most primary school kids still I don't know most, that's probably most I did it.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, a lot of children get some option to do something like that.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oh well that's good.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, did you need to get a teaching degree or qualification or anything for that?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Nope.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: No, just let anyone do it.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's great, that's good to know.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: I feel very safe.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh no, you need like qualifications and things to to cover the technical safety aspects of things.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: So you get you go through those kind of things.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: You become accredited to look after people.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: And did you naturally feel like it was a natural fit for your sort of personality to be around kids and like organise group things?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think so.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, some of it was me just wanting to not have a normal job.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, having been well, you know, having been through the kind of traditional academic routes.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: It was like, yeah.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't suit.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh didn't feel it at the time.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, it's just thought, well, that's what I want to do.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: I want to be in the mountains, I want to do something that I like doing, but also there's um hopefully some value to the work you're doing if you're working with young people.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I guess there's a lot of reward to it as well.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you kind of see immediate results or change in confidence and enthusiasm.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, it's good.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's that sort of introducing people to new places, spaces, ideas.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and certainly if you're working with kids that come from somewhere that very much is not Cumbria to come and see.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's um Yeah, because it's actually a very different skill, isn't it?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: When I moved to Cumbria, I quickly learned that I don't know how to walk.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: I was like You're doing a good job.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like well, pavement walking's different, isn't it?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like walking up the high street's different to walking in a fell, and I kept tripping over, wasn't lifting my feet properly, or wasn't looking at where I was going, because actually you don't need to in a city.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was a car crash.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: This is why this is why we're walking on some nice tarmac right now.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know your audience.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that's there's a cattle grid coming though.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: He he knows what he's doing.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was a nightmare.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, what is this?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then obviously, as I've told you before, the whole breathing thing, like it's quite important to actually breathe.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: Breathing and walking.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's just multitasking's not my strong suit.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: So anyone listening to this who hasn't been to Cumbria thinks the pavements are just muddy ruts.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's the image I'm portraying.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: And you must breathe in order to work your way through this.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Lift your feet up for goodness sake.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: And the first time I came, I went for it was really funny.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: I went for a walk and I came across a uh I was going through a field with a group and I was in the front and I came to a fence and just stopped and I was like, Well, what do I do?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the guys was was like, What are you doing?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, what do I do?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: There's a there's a gate, and he was like, Climb over it because it didn't have a uh opening.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh my god, really?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it was very interesting.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Very interesting.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: Outdoor spaces can be like that, can't they?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: Because everyone goes, Ah, just come to the outdoors, you know, yeah, just come.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's the outdoors, it's free.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, not you've got to get here, you know.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: And then people somehow will come and they'll use it wrong doing air quotes.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: And then it's like there's no there's no rule, there's no science, there's no anything.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, yeah.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: But when you have had an exclusive city life, and then suddenly you throw yourself into the countryside, everything's brand new.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: How do I do this?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Let's master walking first.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm supposed to extract some sort of joy from this windy wet field that I mean.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I have to say, for the first year in a bit, I was like, this is crap.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Why do people do this?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Where's the shopping centre?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_05: Yep.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: And now I've done a full full 360.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, why would you go to a shopping centre when you can be in a field?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so many people who've known me from before are like, oh my god, who is this woman?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: You're so different.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it's just so much more joyful and and rewarding.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I definitely get it.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: I definitely get the connection to outside.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: So did you um then carry on with the sport like kiddie groups?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um I got sort of caught in the sort of dunno progression sort of conveyabouts of the outdoor world, doing more qualifications and things, and then doing more don't know, sort of what's perceived as desirable work, so like more risky work or more climbing, um, expedition work, um winter stuff.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, it's certainly, you know, and I've bit the mould for that, you know.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: I like my climbing, good at climbing, all this.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so went down that for a while.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: Still doing a mixture, it's all very much a freelance kind of world.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: Do some work in outdoor centres, um, go on a trip, um, like an expedition, um, those sorts of things.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: You get a kind of mixture of things, yeah.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so yeah, like a decade of that, I suppose.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: Oh wow.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and do you do things like um writing for magazines or anything about this?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: I did, I drifted into doing some journalism and editing.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um I was like, yeah, it's good.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like using my degree, yeah, yeah.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: Sort of writing things.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: I can write stuff.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's cool.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I did a bit of that sort of media side of things.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: And how's that world to navigate?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um how do you get into it?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um bothering people, yeah.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: That was it, and and as usual, you've got to maybe know someone, yeah, chat to them, and then see if you can test some kit or write some stuff or take some pictures.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um okay.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: So see if they like it.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so there was a time period of that, yeah, I suppose.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: And then edit ended up editing sort of website online magazine.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um anything we might have heard of?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh mountain bike website magazine, international mountain bike magazine.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: One of the I forget what the biggest, biggest mountain bike magazine online magazine mountain bike magazine in the world.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's got a good strap line like that.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Someone's like with a mountain biking celeb right now.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, people that edit and write are never there.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: Just do some graphs.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: You get to chat to the the the celebs in the cycling world.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oh that's cool.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you did that alongside.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, doing outdoor things.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you've always been freelance then.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think I was once employed for about nine months.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: How did that go?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it was only part-time.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think you just struggle with commitment, commitment issues.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: You just know, don't you, if it's if your path is just not that, and you've obviously always had that sort of entrepreneurial free spirit about you.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's um just I like projects, I like sort of defined pieces of work and things like that rather than ongoing operational.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm the same actually.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of um lose a bit of interest once the exciting bit's done.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I like stying things, yeah.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: Things go in.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: I like being sort of catalyst to make things happen.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then hopefully bring other people on board and pass it on.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, ideally.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: And if you've done it right at inception, then it is sustainable.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and something like publishing can be quite good if you've got a publishing cycle because you've got these projects like every month or two.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: You've got to get a magazine out the door, you've got to get I think these parcels of work quite well, and freelance as well, people book you for jobs and bits of work.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um that sounds good.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: So um when you say sort of parcels or like packages of projects, what's an example of something you've worked on?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um I suppose I suppose that brings into more of the work for the last 10 years.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: It was like 10 years of like pure outdoor work, and then the last 10 years of moving into training and development work, facilitation work, some corporate work, yeah.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: Which again is still working with people, sometimes even outdoors.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but those sorts of when we think about a package of work, might be working with a client for or a team of graduates or something for a whole year, maybe at various points throughout a year.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um so and what sort of thing are you sort of delivering?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so to start with, I was doing pretty much just um leadership development, graduate development, yeah.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um for or early career people, lots of those sorts of terms, yeah, um, some of that through outdoor things, yeah.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um some of it just through a bit of uh team games on the lawn type, experiential learning, yeah, and some of it purely classroom-based or one-to-one coaching facilitation work.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right, so it's quite a lot.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did you get into that side of things?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there's a bit of a crossover around here, right?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: Cumbria, yeah, where there's lots of outdoor things going on.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: There's also some training and development centres, yeah.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: So some big names that have residential centres, which traditionally businesses have had away courses to do leadership development or any sort of personal business development kind of work.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I started working with some of those initially just covering the safety side of things, they were doing something exciting, yeah, boats or up and then I gradually sort of transitioned to the more coaching and facilitating side of that and found that that was a nice fit.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: Having always worked with people, yeah.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um generally always been introducing people to new things or maybe scary things or um building rapport with people quickly, building trust with people.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, maybe it's it's then a sort of business side rather than leisure, but it's it all it doesn't feel like work then.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, it it fits.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um enjoy doing.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, from my experience when we went up um Lencathra with you, I thought you were great because it's such a mixed group of people, and actually you didn't lie to anyone in terms of this is gonna be really hard, but you said it in a really like encouraging way to not put people off.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, because it was a tough audience, yeah, yeah.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: And actually it was really lovely and the sort of gentle guidance without being in your face and pushy, and it was just really great.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: I really enjoyed your your manner, not your mannerisms, yours, your style.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I thought that was really nice, so thank you.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I really enjoyed it.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: What's really nice about those days out is that I'm now doing that as a volunteer.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm kind of gone, I'm not really doing outdoor work for my income.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: Really anymore.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: So it's nice to have a bit of cooling off time and then actually go back and revisit that in a way that I want to do it.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: With the people that I want to do it with.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I like that you said that you like to pick, you like to revisit routes and explore different paths and really know them well and really intimately, which I thought was really nice because then it's kind of it's it's definitely felt more like a passion for you rather than a um bragging rights thing.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Ticked off these mountains.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there's a lot of that approach to outdoor things, which is like you know, sticking a flag.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, you know, well, that's how climbing mountaineering was, it was just colonial mentality.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: Well, go, climb that one, conquer, name it.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's probably already got a name, yeah.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that sometimes even comes through to climbing and mountaineering, which is like more is more, you know, climb more peaks, lists of things to do.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: And that can be cool, that can be good, but also it can be nice just to know a place and spend time in a place.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and know the sort of um hidden tracks and things.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I quite like that.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: And know a place you might sort of care for a place as well, yeah.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um even just sort of figuratively just have a greater understanding of it, yeah, or you know, actually care for it, look after it, tidy it up, you know.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, be sort of a cost custodian of a of a of a space.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I I really like that, and I kind of feel I mean I've been in Cumbria for 16 years, I think, now, and I feel like that for certain routes that I do because I do the same routes all the time, and um A, there's a bit of a comfort comfort to doing the same route, yeah, and B, it looks different every day.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you don't actually need to kill yourself to be interesting.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, that's it, and there's something nice just about recognising the rocks or the river or the trees and starting to have more of a kind of connected relationship rather than I suppose what I think of what I was previously just describing, you know, when you're climbing a mountaineering walking, sometimes it's extractive.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like what excitement can I get from the land, from nature?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like um, but coming off sort of be with it, yeah.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um it all sounds a bit sort of conceptual, but there is like, oh, I want to go climbing, get that route done, and tick that one, and yeah, but actually when do you just stop and take it in and you don't have to achieve something?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: Well, this is that kind of classic needing to be measurable, yes.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, where did you go?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: How big was it, how quickly did you do it?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's just like well, you might say, Oh, I sort of walked around the side of that hill, didn't get to the top, had a sandwich, yeah, came back to none of it makes good Instagram content.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: No, but you might have had a nice time.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so much of it isn't as you know, I love Instagram, but I'm also you know, there are things I do, which might surprise people that I don't post.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: This is where you do the like and subscribe there.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, I'm not gonna do that.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'll do that in the stories.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well no, maybe I'll do it in the outro.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, have you got a theme tune?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: I do, yeah.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I got a theme tune.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: No, I can't actually remember what it is, but um it's kind of uh peppy.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Peppy kind of happy, it resonated with me, and it's not too much.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because I felt um because my attention span isn't so um good in that you know, a lot of my friends are the same as me.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: One one person I um podcasted with said she listens to things on one point five.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_03: So that's kind of the So so should we just start talking quicker?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: No she won't have to do that.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well if she does, then it'll be really funny.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I don't have the patience to listen to a big chunk of music.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to get into the thing I've tuned in to listen to.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, right, you don't want a long intro.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want uh, you know, bagpipes and drums and fantasies.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, and and that's why I like the walking, because it keeps us engaged and active and we can look around at all the beautiful scenery and the whole tree tree hormone pheromone thing.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's only good for us, isn't it?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, going inhale some good air from the woods.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Even if it smells a bit cow like farm.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: Cows in a dairy farm shed.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: But that's okay too.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now that we're we're on the other side of it anyway.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna cross the tracks now.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: I've never done this bit.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: I've never been this way.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: So this has actually worked out really well then.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right, that was we were in different towns this morning.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it was so funny.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's like he's kidding.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: He he's not in a different town.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_03: Is this one of these anecdotes that we think's funny and then we talk about it now and just goes, no, that's not that's not fine.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: You are not reading text messages anyway.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was very funny though.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um worked out fine.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it it's still raining, so it's you know it made no difference which town we were in.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: We talk about railways now.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: We're crossing a railway.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, West Coast Main Line.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: That that's all I've got.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's all you've got.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's great when it works.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yes, yeah.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I know in terms of like I should take the train more, but I feel like I've done my time on the trains, they're so unreliable.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to get to where I'm going.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to wait for a train.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: Where are you?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, it's such a deep question, Ewen.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: At this point in time, I feel like you could be taking me to meet my end.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea where I'm going, literally.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's just it frustrates me that our train system's so crappy.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: And especially when you're sort of trying to be more climate conscious and it's so prohibitively expensive.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's um it's a point of point of pain and frustration for me, to be honest.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: Should be easy, shouldn't it?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: It should be an easy choice to make.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you shouldn't even think about taking your car five hours south.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, how is that preferable over sitting on a train?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: But that's where we are.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: So um so then the past ten years has been about the leadership training, coaching, facilitating.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: What's the next ten years?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: What's your five year plan?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: Don't have a five-year plan.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: Very much it's been thinking, oh, like what looks exciting, yeah, or what seems to fit.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: Just sniff that out, go and try that for a bit.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: See where I can be useful.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: But um I like that.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because actually I'm the total opposite, as you would imagine.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: I have a very structured plan in place.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_05: Oh.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: And for since I was 15, actually, I've had a five-year plan.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_05: So it's only been going um.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I like it smooth.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, there we go.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Smooth.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there is flex in it because you don't know what life events are gonna happen, and so you have to be a bit accommodating to change.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but generally I've always got my eye set on something and what the next thing is.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I think and and for me that brings me joy.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I love that for you, you don't need that, and actually it's not a it's not a big driver for how you do the next things.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's not sort of like a working back from somewhere I want to be.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, a lot of it can be done, I suppose, from deciding what you don't want to do, right?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then seeing what's left, maybe.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like that, yeah, because actually that's really strong, isn't it?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: And forces you to get to know yourself in order to know what you don't like.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, and that's it.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: And if what's that thing about trying to live to your values?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_03: So, and if you make decisions based on if you know what you stand for and you know what you yeah, you want from the world, yeah, um hopefully I can help make good choices that you will be happy with.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's that's an interesting point because I think for a lot of my twenties, I don't think I was that social well, I know I wasn't that socially conscious, yeah.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I was very much making choices that benefited me.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Personally, exclusively.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: I had the best time.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, it just wasn't in my consciousness to think about anything wider than that, and then as I've got older, thankfully that's changed, and I like to think I'm a much nicer.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: I I like who I am now more than I like who I was 20 years ago.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: And there were characteristics I noticed in myself that I was like a lot of that was environmental that doesn't get questioned because that's just the way it is, and then I've kind of worked through that to become the version of me I am today.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of never-ending, isn't it?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think you have to keep checking in.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's that acceptance, hopefully, of of change.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: Big fan of change as a concept.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, me too.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: That things will constantly change.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: And you would hope so, wouldn't you?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think we have to be if we don't embrace it, you have to be open to it because things will change.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's impossible.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, because I mean you can't be, I can't be the version of me 20 years ago with everything that's happened in my life since then.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: If I was, then I've just not processed things and I'm incredibly ignorant.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there's this you know the idea of just being sort of very static or wishing for times in the past.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yes.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: I really like that.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: So focusing on what you don't want to do or drawing out what you don't want to do so you steer away from that, I think that's really powerful.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that matches up with where my work has gone.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: We haven't talked about ARK, have we?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: We have not.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to talk about ARK?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well that goes in, you know, with the career time line was when 2019.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: 2019?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, 2020.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: So my work has developed as ARC, as anti-racist Cumbria came into existence.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, really.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: That was a have you done it, have you done an episode that says all about ARC?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, I haven't.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: Do the do the backstory the origin story.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, it'd be really interesting to do that because I think different people have their version of it from their lived experience.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think that's a really nice thing to do.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, go.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: Go.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_03: Anti-racist Cumbria.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um 2020 was a pretty shit year on so many fronts.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: On many, many levels, but um folks will no doubt remember tractor coming.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Noisy tractor coming.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, come this way, come this way.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And now does Vic and we gallop across a bridge.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: Don't worry.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, there's a big puddle, is that where we're going?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, secret pathway.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Secret, secret pathway exciting.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh local knowledge.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Local knowledge.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's nice actually.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_03: You can walk around here, it gets a bit overgrown with a bracken.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but this is a nice bit of woodlands.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, it looks lovely.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: Some older woodlands.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: They're the old reservoirs for Kendall.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, it's a bit muddy.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like this location because actually you're just close enough to town to get to what you need to do without a car, and you can do walks like this from your doorstep.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, Antiochus Cumbria.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: Anti-Vrocks Cumbria was born in 2020.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it was a shit year.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, George Floyd was murdered.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: The resurgence, the reinvigoration, perhaps, or simply people paying attention to Black Lives Matter movement.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that was 2020.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: Cumbria needed a response.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um the world needed a response.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And uh can watch that.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um and Janet and others stepped forward and created some space online to talk about what was going on.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um and which was very much needed, wasn't it?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, given the response positively, and the people that needed that community spoke for itself.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it just it needed something.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's that was the moment.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: And there were some online sessions.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: There was one first one, I didn't go to the first, very first one.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_03: Claire was there, so my wife Claire was there, and I sort of stuck my head in.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, uh, I think I was put I think I was putting the kids to bed or something, you know, there was a lot going on.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we were in lockdown still, yeah.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: And oh we were, it was all the same, wasn't it?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, and I was like, right, this seems good, and Claire was like, Yeah, it was good, yeah.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I think um Claire was like, yeah, there was no men there.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: Well, if there was, then maybe it was one.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to um I don't recall misrepresent.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: But there might have been there's a lot of sort of it ideally what should have been happening, and it did for a bit.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: People start thinking about themselves, their place in the world, yeah, um, what they want from the world, yeah, maybe realising the world is not quite how they thought it was, didn't work exactly, yeah.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and needed to do a bit of work to decide whether they wanted to change, change again, you know.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: Do we want to embrace change?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, you know, something about that I was like, yeah, yeah, you know, we need to we need to show up.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: I need to show up.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and despite having a good idea of what I thought was right and wrong with the world or being relatively well informed because I read The Guardian, um I was like, not so much sort of action, yeah.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's outside of work, you know, personal accountability, yeah.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's that's it.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: So um that was the origin it started and has grown since then.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_03: It is now a registered charity, it employs several people.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um yeah, it's amazing.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: And all the grassroots work is for yeah, there is yeah, community base, community, grassroots, impacting leadership.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but if Janet listens to this, she'll just be like, You missed out this, you missed out that.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, sorry Janet, we're just walking up a hill and I'm yeah, I'm breathing, so you'll do really well.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: So anti-racist Cumbria was born and continues to grow and develop and evolve and change, yeah.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, taking the feedback on and evolving and really doing the work, yeah.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: And then the piece that links me in professionally, yeah, we were doing us talking about that was I found I could get involved with the training development facilitation offering from Anti Racist Cumbria, yeah.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, which has been a huge journey for me, yeah, working out who I am, what I'm about, yeah, whether I can even show up in this space with any authenticity.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and um, yeah, in the past I wonder when we first started.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's been a good couple of years, maybe three years since we first started running sessions, yeah, running facilitated conversation um generally to white audiences.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: So a lot of the work I do is about people taking their first steps usually into what anti-racism might mean for them.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, what it might mean for Cumbria, yeah, their places that they worked.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I get a lot of well not a lot, but I do get people saying, but is Cumbria racist?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: With a sort of kind of question mark, high-pitched ending.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but is it though?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: And what they're really what they're really asking, making a sweepy statement is do I really need to get involved?
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, is it the Do I need to know this?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's much nicer if I if we pretend it's not happening and everyone likes you.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've had that before, but um I think yeah, my response is always pretty standard in that, and I'll be interested to know what your response is.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of always say, well, it's it's a form of abuse, and other forms of abuse exist in Cumbria because Cumbria contains people.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, people will do things that are not nice, and racism is one of them, and that's my lived experience.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, the answer is yes.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not you know, we're not saying everyone in Cumbria is racist, but I think the point is everyone around the world has responsibility to speak up against abuse, and the abuse that we're focusing on is racism.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's my personal take on it.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good take.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good take.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um but that's the that's the interesting bit about the work is working out where you're coming from.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um, and a lot of the time it's encouraging white folks predominantly, because that's our audience, to consider what it means for them.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um and to try and start unpicking the world we live in and the systems that are in place.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_03: Systems that just evolve, some are designed, but yeah, you know, nature's full of systems.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: Enough people do stuff, patterns emerge.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then we there are people who rise to the top, yeah, and people that will find it much, much harder to rise to the top if we should even have a top.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, that that's the whole so it's thinking about that whole sort of system or systems, any system of oppression and how that then plays out in society.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe starting to see that it's not an entirely level playing field, which can sometimes be a leap for people.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, just just making that connection.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting, isn't it?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because um, it's such a personal journey and it is uncomfortable.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you do look at yourself and think, oh my god, I can't believe I said that, or I can't believe I did that, and I'm mortified and I don't know how to come back from that.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: But that's part of it, because you know, receiving racism is uncomfortable.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: So to undo that and undo that damage, or to to move forward in a different way is gonna take work and is gonna be difficult, but it's so important.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I think this is it because if it was easy to solve, yeah, it would already be solved.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: We've tried a lot of other things, yeah.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and there's a lot of stuff that happens in businesses and institutions that perhaps works on sort of harm reduction, yeah.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um for those sort of in line to receive abuse and oppression, yeah.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_03: But something like anti-racism is thinking, well, what is actually going on here?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and how do we, if not fully dismantled, start to disrupt this system?
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_03: What can we do differently that might start to unpick this?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: And not in that sense of oh you're a bad person.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: No, exactly.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um there are bad people, but a lot of the time, you know, that's if that make takes up a lot of the sort of noise and attention, it does, and it's thinking of the the other stuff as well as the deep-rooted sort of systems, systemic issues, yeah, in cultural issues, yeah.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: I mean that in a kind of you know, what is the dominant culture?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: Who are the people that really thrive and in your workplace or in your organization or in your social groups?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: So part of your agency says um facilitation work.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: What sort of things are you thinking about when you walk in the room?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and to add to that, how do you protect yourself?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_03: Follow-up question.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, nice.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: I know you could do this for a job.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think the root way to all of this is people, individuals caring about it enough to change in some way.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, just little bits, um, maybe just kind of nudge them a little bit to think differently that might open up things.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we can't come in and just fix it all, yeah.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_03: Or give people a list of compliance.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we've got Equalities Act, we've got other things people can comply to and be legally tick boxy.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I feel it's up to individuals, and that's that's why hopefully we can try and connect with them in a way that is empowering.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_03: And they would hopefully very much like to see um a more liberated future for everybody.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: Because it it needs to be enticing, it needs to rather than a stick, you know, naughty naughty.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in the corporate world when you do all this EVI training and things, yeah, like you said, it's legislative, it's sort of policy driven, yeah.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: We've done it, 500 employees, everyone's done the online training course.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: So what?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what does that what changes that enacting other than we know how to hack the training system so we can speed through to the end and do the questions?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: So, I mean that question is how do you show up for it?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think it really does require that a an open approach, yeah, where you listen to people and really find out what where they're at with this.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: And is there a fear factor maybe?
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: Racism is massively scary.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_03: The idea of being called racist is um perhaps consider well it is considered for people to be worse than actually the harm that racism does.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it does, isn't it?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_03: It does this.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: We've we've been told for a long time not to what we can't say or things like that, and then you end up shutting it down.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but it still leaks out.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: We see it in the stats, we see it in people's own experiences.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you protect yourself?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: You forgot the follow-up question because I'm such an expert.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: I know, good follow-up question.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, I suppose there's that assumption to start with that you know, you're I'm in a white body, so I'm impervious.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, like somehow it's not going to impact me.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: But it's um it's not true.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like it does, it's different, like looking for equivalence, isn't it?
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: You know, comparison, yeah, it's not a healthy place to go there.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um, and so with all of this work, if you want to make the world a better place, you're gonna need people and you're gonna need community.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that's what ARC does to start with.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: Also, the work we do, we tend to deliver in teams or pairs.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so okay.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: So we go in together.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um you have a support network in the room from the start.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:48
  unknown: Yeah.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and we do well, we can try and embed embodiment work into all of the things that we do.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: And what does that embodiment work mean?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh again, Rowan, if you're listening to this, yeah.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_03: Rowan Carr, yeah, embodiment coach and all around um amazing person.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_03: All-round amazing person.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so embodiment is us relearning how to link what's going on in our bodies with our minds.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's the way I interpret it.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: Too much we have gone to the mind to deal with things.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I'll just rationally work this out.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: In an academic sense.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like really kind of like we are of the mind.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so we can just logic it out, whatever, and that then ignores what's showing up in our bodies.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: And also answering that question, then how are we feeling?
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: How does the what does that trigger in ourselves, in our bodies?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: And if we're switched off to that, we might not know.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you sometimes see in kids when they have massive kind of meltdowns.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Or something, it's but it's like how does it show up for you?
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because sometimes the body will know before anything else.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: Whether you feel tension or stress and that stuff dropping feeling.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's personal to each each person, but um trying to get that and some emotional literacy going about and and then some honesty about I'm feeling scared.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: And when all that happens, it's that fight or flight response.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: So you either kind of like attack or run away.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um because you know you've sensed a threat, and that threat could be someone opening up a conversation about racism.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: And then when that happens, you're not much good to anyone when you get that stressed.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: Because the blood runs out of your brain, it's ready to run away, and then all of all of your thoughts get jumbled, and it just becomes difficult.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really interesting.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: That connection, isn't it?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: The physical to the mental connection.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: That we don't always, well, very rarely, unless you're into it, do we consider that in any scenario?
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then the long-term effect of that as well, the long-term effect on your body of any sort of trauma or or confrontation or stress.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: I find I love, well, I don't love it, but I love the topic.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I love the the fact that I am tuning into that now.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I am looking after myself a bit more in that space.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that's that's it.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's something you can start tuning into.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: You can never kind of complete it and be like, oh yeah, I get it now.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm just privileged to be able to work with Rowan and learn from him.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_03: And try and understand it in my own way.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, this this is it.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like, oh, I've got the certificate and I I'm accredited.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I think showing up with that level of sort of humility as well.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: This is where I've got to.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: This is where I think, you know, these are the really interesting things to think about, talk about, and feel about.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and hopefully we can then encourage people to to come with.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know, because come over here, it's nice.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um because we're less we're less scared.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and if you tackle anything from a place of learning, acceptance of continued learning, acceptance of gaps in knowledge, and like you said, that humility, then it's okay to be vulnerable and say, Well, actually, I'm really uncomfortable here.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what to say right now, so I'm gonna get back to you.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, like, yeah, good question.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: Don't have the answer.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I've kind of got to a space where I'm just like, I'm I'm not here to teach you about something that's done to me.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, this is where there's that that stark kind of difference, isn't there?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's that perhaps well-meaning request that you educate.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but something that how can I understand when someone's doing this thing to me?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we don't ask um domestically violent people.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm a victim of domestic violence.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: Why you why is this happening to you?
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we don't do that, so why are we doing that in this context?
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's been that traditional way.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, just taking sort of maybe business for an example, when they go, right, you know, we need someone to deal with our lack of representation.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, you know, that's focus on the groups of people or the identities that we don't have enough of, yeah, and ask them why.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: Why, yeah.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, rather than turning on themselves and saying, What is our culture of this organization and what is keeping why are we not attracting different people?
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I and just going back to the physical connection when when these conversations happen, I just find myself so tired, I feel drained and tired.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so, my way of sort of dealing with that for me, everything comes back to exercise.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I go to the gym or go for a massive long walk, or you know, just be in nature, be outside, and decompress and work it through my head with some banging tunes.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but everyone's way of doing it is different.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: Journaling, maybe write it down, get it out of your head.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that does some sort of connection, or at least answering that question about how it's showing up.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_03: Because one of the things I think you can do, and I'll be guilty of of that, is maybe like running or doing exercise to just pack it down and not work it out.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's like fingers in your ears, it's like I'm feeling something, I don't want to, I'm gonna run really fast.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna do things.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, feel something different un until it's gone.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_03: And perhaps that's alright.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_03: Perhaps that deals with it, it will get rid of the adrenaline or the some of those sort of chemical response.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_03: But maybe you need to be asking, at least knowing why.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_03: Why did I have that response?
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_03: What was it?
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_03: Where did I feel it?
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like I'm I'm getting into a world of embodiment that I have no right to kind of.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, but it's interesting from ancient experience.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: Are we going back on ourselves or we probably should because if not we end up at a big road?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that was like the pacing of this, it's probably um yeah, it's just interesting from a so definitely not asking you from an expertise perspective, but from a lived experience perspective, what tools have you got in place at this point in time?
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's likely to change in five years, isn't it?
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: As you grow and learn more and change in yourself.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I always find that outdoors and the space to think, and I can't do that at home because I feel the walls are too close in then.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: I need that, I need that sort of view of the horizon.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I uh for me personally, I feel like I let it go, it's out in the atmosphere then, I've let it go.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I like my house to be free of that kind of toxin.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: Burn loads of sage.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: And make that keep that as the safe space.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but it's really heavy work, so thank you for sharing that with me.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a big topic to to do.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, we could do a we could do a whole episode on and it seems fitting that we've been battered by the rain as we talk about this heavy stuff.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I suppose I suppose there has to be something with the heaviness, yeah.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: That is the lightness.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: The lightness, yeah, I was just going to say that, yeah.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: You see, we'll stop now.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it's true.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you we wouldn't do it if there wasn't a light to it.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh no, no, there has to, and that's the community part as well.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_03: To come together with people that similarly share some values, share some intention, share some desire for change.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely, and it's a wonderful community.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: And when you actually find people like that, yeah, who you can resonate with and you can sit with, yeah, suddenly the the relationships you can have are much greater, stronger, deeper, and then the the joy and fun you can have within those groups can be um even more, you know.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_03: And it's that sort of joy as resistance.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I agree, definitely.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of and it's great that we do get a lot of support and and we found each other.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't have known you existed otherwise.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: And well, there you go.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean that's wonderful.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_03: But I mean the irony of it is that I is it irony, I don't know, I only benefit.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, yeah, here we are again, you know.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, white bloke, you know, got another kind of work stream, you know, work at the arc, I have wonderful people around me, I have a more broad and better understanding of the world and how I want to shape it, um better understanding of myself, yeah.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, oh right, okay.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it starts falling in on it, so I get all a bit kind of oh you get into yourself a bit into your head.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've done it again.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, or just like look, look, but also that should be the kind of how how can you how can you lose getting involved in in this?
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_03: Certainly as um white bodies coming into this, yeah, this space.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_03: And it's um yeah, this chat was the other day with a with a group was starting to think about whose responsibility is it to the whole to s to solve this, yeah.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_03: Is it on or any oppressive discriminatory system, yeah, is it on those who are receiving the harm to fix it?
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's tends to be a kind of classic sort of trope we fall into.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not, we need, I think, saving a long time together, we need we need white folks engaged and doing.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_03: Not talking about well, we need to talk about racism, they need to talk about whiteness, they need to talk about what they're bringing.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, better understanding of that.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, no, that's really great.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was just thinking in terms of resources and things, what would you recommend?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: But let's park that because we can add that, we can share information of that in the caption.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if there's anything you can do.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like and subscribe.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like and subscribe.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's all we care about, people.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get those followers up from 10.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone has to start somewhere, Ewan.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, that's that's it.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you've got more followers than I have.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: My podcast doesn't have anyone, it doesn't exist.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so no five-year plan, which is great.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: I love that it's organic, yep, and you're feeling your way through.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, let me just get out of the way of this car.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, no five-year plan.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't have guessed that I would be here five years ago.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_03: No, talking to you about anti-racism work.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_03: That probably, yeah, that wouldn't have been a guess.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: And about being a mountain biking journalist kind of guy.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's one of those careers, it's like, yep, yep.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_03: But I do feel now, you know, it's that values-led kind of work that's important.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it might take a long time to get to, and then you're like, no, I want to do things that are aligned with me, yeah.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: What I stand for.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_03: Change, yeah, positive impact.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's great because some people get that from a very early age, and some people grow into it like me.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of grow into it and question things and evolve.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's great that you're really tuned into that.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: So um, can we talk about music?
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_04: Sure.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: Go.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: Talk.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, how long have you been into music and what kind of music?
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I have um been doing music for well, I don't know, mm most of my life, probably.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_03: I think I probably was put in front of a piano keyboard.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, primary school age, but yeah.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um did that.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you just took to it?
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh not not initially, no.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_03: I was just kinda I remember really not liking it.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh really?
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that interesting, yeah.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um never known it so busy.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, tiny little They must have heard I was here.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure they had a camera.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: My bright yellow NYC hat.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like a beacon in the hills.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um music.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_03: Did that, got to secondary school, I was I got a saxophone.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, oh yeah, this is cool.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, cool.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_03: I really wasn't very cool, but um I thought I know I know how I could be cooler.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_03: A saxophone.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um it didn't make me cooler, but I did enjoy playing it.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay, good.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, and that was coolness has overrated you, and and anyway, you are very cool.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: I've accredited you now, so I get a badge.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: I might put that on the um blog on the podcast post.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_03: Have a badge.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, stamp it, yeah.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so saxophone then.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, I did loads of music, played, played, DJ'd a bit.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_03: As anyone who went to university around turn of the century.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: Forget about Mozart in 2000, it was there is no kind of like white middle class 40 something who can't DJ.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: Love that.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I guess you were kind of uh was that at your 40th you were doing the the DJing thing.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I did some.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_03: Was that some my brother did my brother was DJing as well.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um same era.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_03: And both.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_03: Same sort of era.
• 57:33
  unknown: Yeah.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: Very heavy stuff.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: Very heavy stuff.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is that your sort of comfort zone then?
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um music-wise, uh I don't mind it if we get to drum and bass by the wee small hours.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I like a sort of progression.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I play music and I like jazz.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_03: And that's kind of like done one end and then I like electronic music, I like drum and bass.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um anything that's fun.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_03: And preferably music that has lots of change within it.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so I don't just want to go to like you know, like classic kind of like house, you know.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_03: Oh well, yeah.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_03: Well, now actually to be fair, I'd probably go if you if yeah if you invited me, I'd go with you.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: Don't tell Claire.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, didn't you go?
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_03: What are you going to do?
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: Boys to men.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like I'd come to that.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, would you?
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: They were really good.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: They did this whole like rock guitar thing in the middle.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: It was amazing, yeah.
• 58:32
  unknown: Yeah.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_03: I try not to be too snobby.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: I I do as well.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I would go to the show.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: Music should be fun, yeah.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: It should be and you don't know what you're gonna connect with.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, you have to keep an open mind.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, playing it, listening to it, yeah.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's all good.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so what are you working on at the moment?
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know you're very busy with music sheets and printing and arrangements and things.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, just arranging some parts.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then you need the printed, and because I'm a uh millennial, I don't own a printer.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: You millennials.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a Gen X.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_03: Are you?
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: I am, yeah.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_03: They're the coolest.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: I believe so.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean Gen X after as a general rule as well, we tend to look a lot younger than the millennials and just saying.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_03: Apparently, well I I looked it up and I am like a geriatric millennial.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_03: I'm as old as you can possibly be.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: To be a millennial.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_03: So and I think um, yeah.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_03: So I might just be I might be roaring at that a little bit too much.
• 59:38
  unknown: You know.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's like there's a 10-year window or something.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh god.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so ten years is a massive I don't know how much I have in common.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a long time.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: It is actually like given how technology has evolved so quickly in that time, yeah.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: There is a big generational difference.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so is it for a gig?
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_03: Got some gigs in Lancaster with a couple of couple of bands down there, which is all very lovely.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: Anything I can come to?
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um when are you when are you publishing this podcast?
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh September onwards.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know where this episode will be, but we can add it to the caption.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: Closer to the time.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone can descend on all ten people.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_03: All ten people, yeah.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be in the front with my bright yellow hat.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_03: But um, no, it's been really nice.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_03: After COVID, I decided that I should probably do some music again with other real humans.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay, yeah.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_03: Up to that point, I'd probably have been like, I could always do music if I wanted to.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_03: I could always, you know, find some people to play with.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, young family, all this sort of stuff.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_03: COVID happens, and I'm just like, no, I want to do it now.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_03: I've got time.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_03: Once you're told you can't do it, yeah, you know, you're locked down.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was just like, oh but this is exactly what I actually do want to do.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_03: So when COVID finished, I emerged and we went sniffing out.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_03: I emerged.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_03: We just went down to Lancaster sniffing about, playing my saxophone down the street.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, cool.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: Busking.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_03: Not really.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: Can you do that?
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_00: I want to video it.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: Can you do like a busking in there's a guide that busks in boness.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can do that.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: You can block at my house.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_03: You could do.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_03: You could like say don't know where my career is.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_03: Don or is going or has been.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I could I could do that.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that'd be awesome.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_03: But I think it's all wrapped up in that personal development piece of actually coming back and deciding what's important to you and what bits you need in your life.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, having kids does a thing to you, does a number on you, you know, and you decide what's going on there.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I think that constant kind of assessment of where you're at.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um not maybe for me where I want to be, but like what actually makes me happy.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_03: How do I live with myself?
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that's really important because actually you and Claire are both very tuned into making choices that heighten your lived experience.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, hopefully.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you're not chasing things for the sake of keeping up with the Joneses or something like that.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: You're actually thinking deeply about this is my lived experience and what does that look like and what what what brings me joy?
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but that's it.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, what do I value?
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_03: What do I want?
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: You have to respect who looks back at you in the mirror.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: I say this all the time.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: I've probably said this in every podcast.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: This what this is I'm very, very linear on these things.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, but it's it it it has to come caveated because I'm aware of putting this kind of like, oh yes, I've achieved some level of enlightenment.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I have not.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I did see the beam of light through your head.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_03: You sort of say this stuff and it all makes sense, but then it also comes in with a massive kind of load of self-doubt and like circular kind of questioning of like, oh I'm doing this, oh, should I be doing this?
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not sure.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um intentionally compromising on other things that you know, the things that don't fit into that bucket.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's um it's definitely linked to some of the core things that we're used to in society, like growth for growth's sake, as in like you know, money, for instance, you know, or bigger things, get more is more, yeah, and uh perfectionism.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so this idea, so again, you know, trying to then be like we don't need people to be perfect in their anti-racism work or you know, in their any activism or anything perfection isn't authentic.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_03: Well, no, you we need people to be like reasonably good at it, yeah, or getting better at it.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: Something's better than zero, yeah.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's um yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_03: So this kind of absolutes like yeah, um, we just set traps traps for ourselves.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_03: We must be like this and it must be perfect, yeah.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_03: And even if we don't vocalise it like that, that can sometimes be for me.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just like ah, there's not, yeah.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it doesn't have to be.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, is it better than it was?
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_03: Am I moving in the direction I want it to be or it feels right?
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I always find like seeing you guys is so so lovely because there's always such a nice energy around you, and you're kind of very balanced in yourselves.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's no edge, that's what I mean.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's no edge, there's no kind of not edgy, no, no, no, edgy in a cool way, obviously.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of stunt with my approval.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_00: But not edgy in a sort of chip in your shoulder kind of edgy or insecurity sort of thing, because actually you're working through those.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, I think my insecurity is well hidden.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: But you do kind of you you are what you see.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: You are hopefully, hopefully.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it comes across that way, definitely, definitely for sure.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so is there anything anything you would like to close on, Ewan?
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_00: Having entrapped me in a wood to save me from a truck and walking uphill while we record a podcast.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I apologise for any heavy breathing on the recording podcast.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: The heavy breathing podcast.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we did we did talk about it before, didn't we, and decided that wasn't the audience we were going for.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: But we might have gone down that route anyway.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_03: Your audience will choose you have it.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's true.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: I can't control these things.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_00: No, um, but I'm hoping for good things with the mountain biking, jazz playing, outdoorsy pinboy, poster boy on my podcast.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm very excited, so thank you for being part of it.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's fine.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for having me.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um onwards and upwards.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like and subscribe.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like and subscribe, thanks.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that brings us to the end of another episode of the podcast.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_00: A huge thank you to Ewan for joining me despite the weather and despite us starting out in different towns.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thankfully, we did manage to find each other and we did go on our walk, and it was a really great conversation.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_00: Ywan's journey is really, really interesting from working with the young people, climbing expeditions, journalism, facilitation, coaching, training.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, and the music, of course.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about a varied career.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: Apologies if you heard any tiny glitches in the sound.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm gonna blame that on the Cumbrian rain because you know it's always raining, but that's why it's so beautiful up here.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you liked what you heard, be sure to tell your friends.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_00: As Ewan was saying, like, share, and subscribe.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to let us know what you thought in our in our comments on the social media channels.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_00: We love to hear from you.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, take care and keep exploring.