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Attachment Styles in Dating · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:02
  Speaker A: Welcome to Gaiman going deeper, a podcast series by the Gaiman's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. I am your host, Matt Lancadell. I'm a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment. I love working with highly sensitive people, empaths and gay men, helping them to develop a stronger sense of self worth. Today's topic is attachment styles in dating. So how the attachment styles influence monogamous and non monogamous relationships. And we're joined by Ken Reed again for the second time on this podcast. Good to have you back.
• 0:38
  Speaker B: Thank you. I feel like I've been a recurring guest, whether it be on this podcast or others that you've invited me on. So thank you very much. I'm glad to be back.
• 0:45
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I was thinking, well, we talked about this at the end of our narcissistic, or I think it was narcissism in the gay community. We did that episode and we talked about this when we were off air, and we thought this would be a great next topic to talk about. So I'm glad to have you back on, and I'm sure the listeners are as well. And for those of you who are just meeting Ken for the first time, he's an attachment and trauma informed counselor who specializes in grief recovery, relationship guidance, and CPTSD recovery. So, yes, your expertise on this podcast is very much comes in handy because we can benefit from that tremendously. So the concepts and questions we are going to explore in the episode are what is an attachment style? Looking at secure versus insecure attachment, briefly going to define the four main attachment styles, talk about monogamy and non monogamy, and then we're going to look at the insecurity side of monogamy and non monogamy, as well as the secure side. And then we're going to explore how anxious people date and show up in relationships, and how avoidant people date and show up in relationships. And then we're going to wrap up with talking about how we can move towards having more of a secure attachment style. So, yeah, let's just hop right in. So from your perspective, what is an attachment style? What?
• 2:12
  Speaker B: Yeah, if I had to be very reductive, I'd say it's a way of relating to someone and also how we love or fear in a relationship. So we find that there's a gap between those that are securely attached and those that have an insecure attachment. Those with a more secure attachment are able to love without much interference, interference from fear, meaning that they're not the kind of people to self sabotage a relationship because they worry about being abandoned or getting too close to a partner. They're individuals who are able to regulate, they're able to communicate effectively and are, generally speaking, pretty good at being self sufficient, whilst also wanting a degree of interdependence with a partner. Then we have the insecure attachment styles, which are not set in stone. They're on a continuum where people can exhibit mild or severe ranges of these attachment styles. And we have, say, individuals with an anxious attachment who have a preoccupation with a fear of abandonment, where when they're in a relationship, they worry about when their partner might leave them. And they also tend to exhibit more behaviors about trying to control their partner to avoid feeling abandoned. Whereas someone with an avoidant attachment style has a preoccupation with a fear of intimacy and closeness, which overshadows their fear of abandonment for them. They're more worried about being vulnerable with another partner, worrying that they're not going to be good enough for their partner, which then also subsequently leads to their fear that, well, if I stick it out with this person, if they get to know the real me, they will leave me and so notoriously avoid. Natasha's have got a bad reputation for being the fboys in not only the gay community, but also in just like in the larger world as a whole, where, you know, they seem to have this reputation of being non committal, which is actually not accurate at all. But the key thing you have to understand about them is that their means of control in a relationship is managing. That is managing the distance and intimacy between them and the partner that they're connecting with. And then finally, we have the disorganized attacher, who's a bit of an amalgamation of both of these attachments. And essentially, it's someone who exhibits the same fear of abandonment, whilst also a fear of closeness. Someone who is on one hand, worried that their partner might leave them, but when they get to a point of closeness, they then start to push their partner away. This is the disorganized attach rule, the fearful avoidance. So that is essentially it in a nutshell.
• 5:06
  Speaker A: I'm curious, what causes insecure attachment, if.
• 5:13
  Speaker B: I'm being completely honest? Whilst the literature would suggest that a lot of this is to do with the way we're brought up through upbringing, through the way in which our parents and society has conditioned us. So, for example, if you had a lot of inconsistent parenting and you weren't sure whether there was love available, you're more likely to develop as someone with an anxious attachment. And then if you were smothered as a kid, you had a lot of really overbearing parents or a lot of emotional neglect, you may be more likely to develop into someone who is a dismissive avoidant. Whereas if you're someone who had not only very inconsistent parents, but those that, you know, whenever something, you know, good happened, it was quickly followed by punishment or something terrible. And there was maybe a lot of addiction, trauma, abandonment in the household. Maybe a lot of, you know, maybe there was also a parent with a personality disorder, too, that was quite harsh on the children. You may be more likely to develop as a fearful avoidant or a disorganized attacher. That's what the literature would say is consistent with the upbringing for these insecure attachment styles. But whilst I don't have the scope to talk about this today, I'm also curious about the role of how our ancestors epigenetics may also play a role in this, in that unresolved trauma could also have a role in influencing the way we relate. There can also be some environmental and cultural factors, too, where I think that, for instance, avoidant attaches tend to be more. I suppose they're more socially acceptable because if you're in a society which praises emotional unavailability and avoidance, are actually very good at compartmentalizing their emotions, and can look absolutely impeccable on paper and a phenomenal impression managers, they can actually thrive in a variety of cultural settings as well. And I think in a community that doesn't like neediness, doesn't like shows of big emotions, then anxious attachers are less likely, I think, to find a similar degree of acceptance because of their proclivity to feel their emotions quite deeply and not have an outlet for them. And I also wonder privately whether there might actually be a biological component to some of this as well, too, because maybe there is something here, genetically, that's also influencing this. But in summary, the literature and the dominant research would suggest that a lot of this is influenced by parenting.
• 7:43
  Speaker A: Yeah. Like nurture versus nature in the conversation. Yeah. It's interesting what you said about avoidance, and it reminds me of people who are, like, emotionally over regulating. Right. And they might be stoic and they might look like they have it all together. They're calm, cool, collected. And really, that could be the byproduct. As an outsider looking at it, it might look like you're composed or stoic, but really, at the end of the day, it's. It's like a dissociative state, and you're not actually feeling what's. What's alive there. So I think you're. You're. You're bang on when you say that, like, our culture, it really, really values and puts people on a pedestal if they are that way. You look at corporate and, like, you know, no emotion. Don't bring emotion into the. Into these things. Men are conditioned to not be that way. And I think, you know, that's, for me, that's the interest of this conversation is, you know, this is a podcast for Gay Mendez, and we are conditioned as men to not be emotional, right? So there's. I would agree with you, there's probably a proclivity to there being more avoidance in our culture and with men in general than there would be towards anxiety. But I do think there's an intersection here. Like, I think, you know, in my work, I've seen when I'm working with somebody with an avoidant attachment style, they tend to have to go through anxiety to heal, to become secure. And when I'm working with an anxious person, they tend to have to go through avoidance to become secure. So it tells me that there's an intersection between these two attachment styles. And I'm a firm believer that if you look at the conscious fears of each attachment style, so you have anxious. Their conscious fear is abandonment. And the conscious fear of the avoidant would be intimacy. But I'm a firm believer that the unconscious fear that they're probably not even aware of would be for an avoidant, it would likely be abandonment. Right. If I get too close and I have that intimacy, I'll be left, or they'll think that I'm bad, wrong, shameful, and they'll leave me. Right. Whereas an anxious person, their unconscious fear is likely going to be intimacy. And I've seen this in myself. I have a disorganized attachment, and it's like, I want intimacy. I want it, bring it to me. And then as soon as it arrives and it's present, the person's present, they want to be there for me. I freak out, right? So it's like, it's telling me that, yes, I have a fear of abandonment, but I also have a fear of intimacy, because if somebody gets close, there's a possibility they might leave me. Right? So there's so much intersection between these two attachment styles.
• 10:24
  Speaker B: 100 billion%. And I love the fact that you brought up the subconscious elements of this, too, because I think that people assume, especially when you've had a breakup with an avoidant attacher, and they look like they've moved on with seeming ease, that everything's hunky dory. It's like you don't understand. Like, these people, you know, have very sophisticated defense mechanisms to intimacy. Like, you know, and just because they appear stoic doesn't mean they don't have any emotions. In fact, often, at times, they are extremely emotional and have big things going on inside of them, which they're trying to manage. And often I've heard my avoidant clients be like, I feel like I'm holding a dozen plates, and if I even stop to think about someone else's emotions, I'm going to come undone. It's a 24/7 job from what I understand. And, I mean, I lean more anxiously attached. I have avoidant parts, but I'm not someone who identifies with an avoidant attachment based on my style of relating. But what you said also about how the pathway to healing these is to go in the other direction is to be like, if your dominant style is more avoidant, you have to go through the anxious side of things. And if your dominant style is more anxious, you have to learn to embrace those more avoidant styles of you. I completely agree, and it's hard because it's easier said than done. Like, I mean, people who are more anxiously inclined have a real, I think, tend to have this real fear of coming across as being, you know, mean as being, you know, self centered, selfish, and really what they need to learn. Like, if there's, um. I don't know if our viewers are going to see this if they're listening in, but basically I'm holding up my phone to represent a line, I always say to clients, I'm like, look, if skew is the base in the middle and you've got anxious on my left and then avoidant on the right, we're really trying to get people who are anxious, who are dwelling in the realm of codependency, loving too much and being far too good at overwhelming and engulfing people, to start learning to go into more loving selfishness and learn to embody their sense of self without needing to engulf another person for their sense of self. Whereas the avoidant attaches are at the complete other end of the spectrum. They are way too good at having individuation, they're very good at being selfish. They are very good at doing their own shtick. And what they need to learn to do is go in the other direction and learn to love and also to embrace another person.
• 12:49
  Speaker A: Yeah, amen. And that can easily lead to gaslighting for. And that's happened to me. Dating avoidant people, they can gaslight you easily and be like, you're needy. You know, you have all these needs, these sorts of things. And I look at what causes attachment trauma in people is it's a legacy of unmet needs, right? So, like, as an anxious person, if you have anxiety, it's likely because you had a lot of unmet needs as a child. Then you have this avoidant person telling you that you're needy. Right? So it's really reinforcing this, this narrative of, you know, my needs don't matter. I'm alone in this world. And, you know, it's. I've, I have a belief that, like, and I'm, I'm, I'm disorganized. So I have both. I have an anxious part and I have an avoidant part within my, within my attachment style, I would say my, my anxious part's a little bit, bit bigger, but they're pretty, pretty equal. And in my experience, I think, you know, because it's also shifted for me. So there was a period in my twenties when I was purely anxious, and then I went through a period where I was purely avoidant. And so I've under, I understand both of these attachment styles extremely well. And when I was anxious, I was very anxious with my partner and very avoidant of self. Okay? Which caused the anxiety because I wasn't here. I was self abandoning. So of course, the anxiety perpetuates when your safety insecurities reliant on this person outside yourself that isn't consistent. Right. But then I also find that when I was avoidant, I was, I was very anxious with self and very avoidant with other. So I was holding all this shit in and all this anxiety was stirring around inside me, but I was showing a composure to people outside me and I was very avoidant of, you know, talking about my feelings or my inadequacies or these sorts of things. So it's so interesting. I find these two attachment styles, they mirror each other and oftentimes the healing, at least for myself, the healing has come through dating the opposing attachment style. So when I was avoidant and I was dating an anxious person, I had to really step into my power and, you know, have a strong sense of self and set boundaries and communicate my needs. And then when I was anxious, I was, I was learning from a partner how to be with myself, how to be with my emotions because, you know, I was looking outside myself for safety and security when all along it was it was within me. Right. So there's a lot of lessons that can be taught between these two attachment styles, but very painful lessons, I must say.
• 15:18
  Speaker B: Oh, my God, I completely agree with you. And I mean, can I just say thank you very much for sharing that story? Because I think I look, even though sources like attach will say that disorganized attaches are 5% of the population, I don't agree with that. I think that they would constitute a much bigger percent of the population. And I think what I love about the way you described your experience is it's really important, I think, for people who identify with a disorganized attachment to realize, like, you are part of a huge population. And I think, especially in the gay community, I think that I would argue that there's probably a higher percentage of disorganized attaches than there would be dismissive avoidance or even anxious attaches. Purely because, as I mentioned with you in our last episode, that there is a higher rate of trauma for gay men in general. And I think because men, as we said, are conditioned and socialized to not have emotions and also not to be needy, in my experience. So I have dated quite a few disorganized attaches in my time. And I have to say, on paper, they have been phenomenal daters. Like, generally speaking, they can be very funny, quirky, charming, very intense individuals as well when you're getting to know them. And what I found is that it's really interesting how those that have yet to sort of, like, integrate a lot of those anxious parts tend to sometimes have a lot of self loathing towards their own neediness and project that, being like, oh, I don't want to come across as being too needy. And simultaneously, you know, they also can pride themselves at times on their compartmentalization and their skills to stay aloof every now and then as well, too. And just to put it together when they're going through an emotional crisis. And I have to give them credit where it's due. Like, I mean, you know, I wish I could shut my emotions down, but I can't. And it's impressive on one hand to look at these individuals when they appear so stoic. But as you said, it can be devastating to someone's nervous system when you have a breakup with one of these people, especially, like, whether it be in a dismissive avoidant or a fearful avoidant, if you have an abrupt ending to want to look to a situationship or relationship, it can really destroy people. But it can also simultaneously be the catalyst to actually start working on yourself and healing your own attachment wounds. Because usually I find, as you said, in dating, you know, you start to learn to appreciate self when you are dating a lot of these individuals, regardless of whether you are dating an anxious or an avoidant, attach her. And I think that dating actually, even though I think a lot of people would love to just be like, you know, let's heal in a relationship. That's wonderful if it happens. But I actually think a lot of the magic can actually happen just in dating because you can get a lot of your own triggers coming up, and it's actually an opportunity to reconnect with yourself.
• 18:06
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Well said. Very well said. I want to give a shout out to what you said about dating a disorganized attacher, because we're talking about insecurity and attachment. We're nothing. We're not saying that these people are bad people or anything like that. And I can even have days or periods in my life where I'm very secure. And if I'm dating a secure person, I can match that security. I've done a lot of deep work on myself, so. But there is. It's a very fluctuating thing, attachment. It's not like if you land in disorganized, you're going to be there forever. It's malleable. It can change. You can grow, you can heal out of it, and there's a lot of strength in each one. I know for people that tend to be more fearful, avoidant, or disorganized, they are very good at vulnerability and being present, and they're highly attuned to the people in their lives needs, because most of the time, these people had a significant amount of trauma. There was a lot of chaos in the home, so they had to become hyper vigilant. They had to notice everything that's going on outside themselves. So they abandoned themselves to take care of other people's needs so they can find their. Probably their most primary need, which is safety. Right. And. And I think this is where the insecure attachment is the birthplace of it, right. And I think for myself, I went into hyper independence. My subconscious comfort zone is to not have needs, because when I had needs when I was younger, it was an inconvenience or they weren't met. So instead of continuously having the disappointment of my needs not being met, I turned my needs off. Right. And that was a very adaptive strategy as a child to that environment. Right. So I. But part of my work now is to bring myself back online to I matter. Right. My needs matter. It's okay to have, right? Because I noticed that. To reaffirm what you said. Like, I notice that comes up for me when I have needs, there's a judgment or there's shame around that. Like, there's something wrong with me. I shouldn't be needy. I shouldn't have needs. It's not safe to rely on. Somebody is a big one. You know, I'll be disappointed, I'll be betrayed if I put myself out there and somebody doesn't show up for me the way that I need them to. A lot of this, this language is what stirs in the mind of somebody with an insecure attachment, right?
• 20:25
  Speaker B: 100%. And I want to add another layer to that, too, which is, it's easy to become almost addicted to your own unhappiness when you're in the depths of an insecure attachment. And what I mean by that is that if you're someone, let's just continue using this example. Let's just say you're someone with a disorganized attachment and you've grown up with a pretty awful childhood where you've had, like, a lot of chaotic parenting, you've had a lot of, you know, difficult things happen to you. You know, genuine love, kindness, empathy can be really unsettling for one's nervous system, if that's your familiarity.
• 20:59
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 20:59
  Speaker B: And if, you know, what I often find is for a lot of people who lean in the category of being fearful, avoidance, dismissive avoidance is that. And even anxious touches is that. If you're someone who hasn't had a lot of, I'd say, functional role modeling of what those more positive, unconditional loving traits and qualities can be, you can often misconstrue another person's kindness, in this case as control, manipulation. And it can make you feel like, I am not worthy to receive this love. I worry that if we connect and we get deeper, this person's going to realize what a fraud or how terrible I am and they're just going to shout at me and tell me how bad I am. It's like, I know it's hard for a lot of people to understand this because I think anxious to touch a brain would say, well, if they love me, they would fight for me. They would want this relationship where it's like, no, no, avoidant brain will never, will never, ever, ever think that way. Avoidant brain is, this is too scary. I'm out of here. Because inevitably this is going to go badly. So I'm doing us both a massive favor by walking away from this. And, you know, when we talk about, like, it's incredible with the amount of work you've done on yourself, too. But I also want to give, you know, listeners an opportunity to say, just because, you know, people have the opportunity to recognize these experiences inside of themselves and work on them doesn't mean everyone will. Because when you're in the depths of that insecure attachment and you are, as I said, addicted to your own situation, it can be very hard to break free of that. And not everyone has the willingness to do that.
• 22:38
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so. I love the way we create because it's like, you end. And, like, the exact thing that I was wanting to share prior is, like, that's a perfect segue for it, which was, oftentimes, insecure people date other insecure people. Right? So anxious avoidant. Right. Most insecure attachers are not drawn to secure attached people until they get to that point where they've done enough work. Right. Because they see it as boring. Right. If you have an insecure attachment, you likely grew up in an environment where there was inconsistency, chaos, drama. It was like, high, high cortisol adrenaline environment. So a secure person is, like, level, calm, collected. They're present, they're there for you, and it's, like, very jarring, right. For somebody that's used to having a lot of chaos. So. And that's what creates a lot of conflict in relationships. And again, I see this in my private practice, like, galore with people struggling with dating, and why can't I find somebody? There's so many avoidant or anxious partners we can never match. It's always like this. Like you're hitting off the mark. And I really do think it's because of this. I think we have a high representation of attachment trauma and insecure attachment in our community, which leads to a lot of conflict in relationships and a lot of unmet intimacy needs because there's a lot of fear of intimacy or in fear of abandonment. So this is, again, one of my inspirations for doing this work, connecting with you, having the brotherhood. All of this is because I want to help heal this so we don't have to have so much disconnection and, you know, continuous, you know, recurring trauma over relationships. Right. It's. It's taxing. It's so taxing on the nervous system. So.
• 24:25
  Speaker B: And society as a whole, like, I mean, look, to be fair to a lot of gay men in dating, I get it. Like, I work with a lot of, like, you a lot of clients in our community who are at their wits end with dating. They're just like, God damn. It seems like everyone is just afraid of commitment. We want these non monogamous relationships, et cetera. It's like. And I know we'll talk about that, but it's one of those things where, like, I understand the hopelessness that it feels around dating as well, too. Like, I really get it, and I'm not about to spread this toxic positivity message of, like, it gets better. There's, like, there's always the next person around the corner. No, say, like, I think that we have to be aware that, you know, there is, unfortunately, some reasons as to why, you know, it's as challenging as it is. I think, on one hand, yes, there is a huge body of people who have a higher insecure attachment, especially, I think, in not just the gay community, but the LGBTQA plus community as a whole. We don't have, I think, a lot of good resources and adequate training to help people who are experiencing attachment trauma who are also in the lgbt community in general, because I think it's mostly focused on straight men and women. I do think that a lot of that stuff can be translated very well for our community at large, but I think that, you know, I can understand that. Realistically speaking, we have a bit of a basket case situation when it comes to dating. And at the end of the day, there's only one thing you can do, which, in my opinion, is you've got to accept and work on yourself, because as much as would be nice to maybe give up and be a monk in the mountains, you know, that in and of itself doesn't help anyone. And so I think that it is one of those things where, for those that are actually willing to work on themselves and do this, you know, I once upon a time, and I feel like this is a very anxious status sort of thing to do, I used to think, well, if I work on myself, well, then finally I'll have, you know, a partner. And now I'm like, no, I'm doing this for myself. I don't care if I end up dying alone. I'll make friends with the nurses if that's the case. Like, I mean, for me, I'm just like, no, it's one of those things where I think, building that relationship to self, you know? Yes, all this other good stuff will happen, but I think that we've got to divorce ourselves from this whole need to, like, be with another human being out of fear of, like, being alone, being judging ourselves for not having a partner, but it's far easier said than done.
• 26:45
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And it's kind of like which side of the coin, right? Because I think for some people they need to learn how to come into connection and get their needs met. And then there's people that, to learn how to have individuation, right? So it's like, you know, big, big s, little o or big o, little s. Like other self. Right? Like what's your flavor? And that can kind of flip flop. Okay, let's, let's move this into the second half of the conversation because I'm really, really curious to get your perspective on this. So, you know, relationship structure, choosing relationship structure that works for you in our community, it's very, very common for there to be monogamous, non monogamous polymerase, different types of relationship structures. I'm curious about the intersection between attachment styles and choosing different types of relationship structures. In this episode, we're not going to go into all of them. I think let's just look at non monogamy as a category that involves relating with more than one person and monogamy as relating with one person and it being a closed connection. Okay. And yeah, there's going to be security and insecurity in both of them. So I like it to call it the shadow side or in the conscious side of making the choice of what you're going to choose for an attachment style. So for your attachment style. So I'm curious for you, what's the correlation here between, like, let's, let's even start with anxious, somebody with an anxious attachment, what are they more likely to move towards as far as an attachment relationship structure?
• 28:18
  Speaker B: In my experience, I think that anxious attaches have a tendency to want a more closed monogamous relationship because the, whilst it sounds all very good and appealing, I think angst attached to insecurity is they will leave me and I will be alone and I will feel like I am worthless and I am unlovable. So the danger is if those unhealed wounds haven't been taken care of, the tendency can be to not only have a monogamous relationship, but actually quite a smothered, enmeshed, codependent relationship where your sense of self is completely dictated by the presence of that other person that's in that relationship too. And this can be dysfunctional. Like, this can be the sort of thing where it's like you need to hang out with this person all the time, 24/7 your identities start to blend together. It's almost like, you've taken on the hobbies and the attributes of this other person without actually having your own sense of self in this entire experience too. I mean, that's the extreme part of it. But you know what's really interesting too, and I guess this will nicely lead on to the next aspect of this. It is very funny how sometimes anxious attaches will sometimes acquiesce to an avoidant partner and go into having a more non ethical, monogamous style. Sorry, ethical non monogamy. Yeah, ethical, non monogamous style relationship to please a partner as well, too, who might be going into this. Because what we often find with insecure attachments, especially anxious attachers, they have terrible boundaries. Like, they don't tend to stand up for themselves in terms of their own sense of self and what their wants and needs are. And I mean, avoidant attachers aren't much better at this as well, too. But when angst attachers, you know, want to hold on to that connection for dear life, they can go in very hyper mode where they'll try and, like, hold on to the person, or they'll try and let the person do whatever they want and pretend to be as cool and collected about it, when in fact, both of these are really taking them away from their sense of self.
• 30:19
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So just, I want to kind of maybe just reflect what you just said, like, just paraphrase. So I'm getting the sense that somebody with an insecure attachment on leaning on the anxious side is going to have a tendency to want to gravitate towards, like, closed. So that way it's like possessive. There might be some jealousy in the relationship. They tend to rely on their partner for a sense of self or maybe worth these sorts of things. So there's more of a codependent nature. It's in a mesh type of relationship. What about somebody from the like with a insecure attachment leaning avoidant? What do they tend to draw towards?
• 30:59
  Speaker B: I think avoidant attaches, interestingly, I think in our community, they can make the assumption that they are meant for more non monogamous style relationships, because part of, I think, their fear of intimacy is that when they get close to one partner, one of their rationalisations might be, oh, well, maybe this is just the way I am, maybe I'm actually not meant for monogamy. And so they'll conclude, based on that irrational realization, that the way forward to them is anything but monogamy. And this becomes really problematic for them, because the irony is, is that whilst it may seem like polyamory you know, or anything around that might be freer, less restricted. No needs need to be worried about, too. It's actually opposite, because to be in a polysaccure relationship means you have to take into consideration multiple people, emotions, jealousies, insecurities, boundaries. It's a full time job and a full experience to have. And it's one of those things where if an avoidant attacher goes into that direction, it can ultimately prove quite dissatisfying for them as well, too, because the same issue keeps coming up for them, which is when they get close to someone, even if it's a primary or secondary, it starts to cause them to distance themselves away and cause unnecessary, you know, resistances and insecurities in their partners as well, too. But then, interestingly, avoidance can also go the other deep direction as well, too, which is if they get with someone who maybe is comfortable enough for them where their triggers of intimacy and commitment aren't being activated. Like, let's just say they get with someone wherever, frankly, their partner is either extremely non emotional or lacks emotional intimacy, or is extremely dysfunctional, held, even narcissistic. Or someone who has, like, really bad emotional dysregulation. They may stick it out for a very long time in what looks like a committed relationship, but it won't activate them because none of that emotional intimacy is happening, because there's no vulnerability in that relationship.
• 33:22
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And I would see this in the shadow side of, say, polyamory. It's like I'm going to give 25% of myself to four different people. Right. So there's not as much accountability. There's not as much. Right. And that's what I would say the shadow side. Right. That's the person who's leading with fear. Right. So they're going into this with intentionality, or maybe it even is unconscious with, I'm distributing my eggs in four different baskets. So then that way I don't have to deal with my fear. Right. My fear of intimacy. So, okay, so this is interesting. So then if we look at the conscious side, so people who are, who are deliberate, they're not leading with fear, they're leading with love. How would that change whether somebody, when it comes to selecting the type of relationship structure that would work for them?
• 34:08
  Speaker B: That's a really good question. I think that, look, as someone I know for myself, because I've tried all kinds of different things myself, and I think I'll speak of my half of myself as someone who's a recovering age detacher and say, I know, for me, I like monogamy not because I want to keep my eyes on my partner, but because I find that I work best when there's just one other person there and I don't have to also think about other people as well too. Like, I only have the bandwidth for one person, and I only came to that conclusion through trial and error, if I'm completely honest. Like, I came to that conclusion through not only trial and error, but also working on myself and also learning to be honest. I had to also heal my fear of intimacy as well, too. And a lot of my stuff to the point where I'm like, yeah, actually, I could definitely be in a committed relationship with someone, but I don't think I could take on other entities as well. One is enough for me. Otherwise it just gets a little bit too messy. And I think for an avoidant attacher, it's not to say that they're, you know, that they're always going to be someone who's inclined to monogamy, but I do think that they start to, I think, come to a point of realizing love is a choice and that they need to step away from choosing what their fear tells them to do, which is to run and to get closer, to lean in. And I think mine is the opposite where it's like I need space and I need you to just do your own thing and to just have a life outside of myself as well, too. And I need to do that myself. So I think it really goes to what you've said consistently, which is when you meet the other part of you, in my case, the more avoidant part, or for you, depending on your partner, the more anxious or avoidant part of you. I think it's about finding that balancing act and also getting back to self and being like, okay, if I don't have to be ruled by my insecurity right now, whichever is prevalent, you know, how would you know what would allow me to choose joy, peace, freedom and love? Because at the end of the day, and this, I don't mean to sound too woo, but at our core, we are beings of love, but all this humanness stuff gets in the way of that. And that's what causes all these problems in dating.
• 36:21
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I'm a firm believer, too. I think, you know, even for people that have significant trauma in childhood and they develop insecure attachment, I think that's like, we can, we can have what I would call parts. We have different parts inside of us, and when we're unhealed, our parts that are wounded are big, right? But I don't think those parts just dissolve. When we do healing, they're there, but they're just smaller and they're not. They're not screaming the loudest. So I'm a firm believer that when we move towards more security, we're still going to have these parts. So there might even be somebody who's secure listening to this. And they're like, yeah, I prefer monogamy because it feels safer for me. Because in my childhood, right, I didn't. There was so much chaos and moving parts, or maybe there was infidelity between your parents, these sorts of things. So those scars can still stay with us. They just don't drive the bus, but they still can influence our decisions in what we choose and how we choose to show up in our relationships. But I will also say, too, like, for myself, my journey of moving towards more security has been easier access to my authentic desires. So it's less fear at the forefront and it's more like, ah, yeah, this would feel good for me. And understanding, like, you know, my desires and being able to lead with those and not having to make choices out of pure fear. I think that really is what, how I would describe security attachment, especially earned secure attachment. I think that's very different from somebody who has organic, secure attachment. Like, they, you know, I think earned earned secure attachment is. It's like a badge of fucking honor, honestly. Like, truly, like, I'm so, like, I just have learned so much in the last ten years of healing, healing attachment trauma that, like, security means so much to me. Like, truly. Whereas I think somebody that maybe was. Had, like, a secure upbringing and they never had to navigate any sort of trauma related to relationships or development. I think maybe there's, like, not as much like, wow, like, look at how far I've come, you know?
• 38:18
  Speaker B: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think earned secure attachment. Look, I'll be honest, I'm going to be like. I actually think if I had to be putting a preference on it, I much prefer to the idea of being just securely attached at birth because, you know, one of the joys, I think, of trauma healing, and I'm not wishing anyone had trauma, but one of the joys of trauma healing is I think you gain access to a breadth of your own human experience as well, too. You know, in each scar there can often be a lot of growth and a lot of, you know, material for foliage to actually come out of those experiences. And I will say that my biggest relationship scars have turned into the foundation for who I am today. And again, look, I understand that, realistically speaking, I know some people will never, ever get to a stage where they're able to say what you and I are saying, and that's fine. Like, for some people it is just the way it is. But for those of us that can get to a stage of, you know, earn secure attachment, I think it's a huge achievement. And I will be honest, like, in my experience, I have to say, I actually think for those that have at least a very strong avoidance attachment also deserve tremendous, you know, just praise for the work that they do on this sort of stuff. Because as someone who, I said, I don't really identify with avoidant attachment, but I've heard from clients and I've seen some of the things that they will say and how they relate to love, and it's bloody hard work. Like, I've worked with some avoidant clients and it's slow, it's steady. You're not expecting these people to race to earn secure attachment. It takes time. And I think that there's a lot. I'm sure you've seen this too. There's a lot of people online who will be like, heal your attachment wounds in three months. It's like, there ain't no way in three months you're going to be healing from that shit. And I know from you, you've even mentioned how you've done some significant trauma work where you've tried and you've gone through the emotions of meeting those parts of yourself, too. Every time I have an avoidant client who's working through parts, it's a deeply emotional experience for them. And it is one of those things where, you know, with all due respect, like, yes, the statue journey deserves its own commendation too, but for someone to meet parts themselves, that they've compartmentalized like that, like, that's an entirely different beast.
• 40:41
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And the thing with avoidance is you have to activate, right, if you've been dissociating, numbing these sorts of things, you have to activate the emotion before you can start the healing journey. Whereas if an anxious person, they're already flooded, they're in emotion storms, right? So they're working on how to regulate, and then, so they're almost like a step ahead. I find an avoidant person has to activate and then go through all the steps an anxious person would have to, would have to go through, right. They have to learn how to feel and be with some of their big emotions. And, yeah, it's quite a journey. And I. Yeah, I'm curious around security. Like what would be some things that you would say can help the listener viewer move towards security? What are some, maybe your top three things that you would suggest that they focus on?
• 41:34
  Speaker B: That is such a great question. I think one of the first things that I would recommend is develop an awareness habit such as journaling. Whenever you have like, big emotions come up just to. Just to get started. Because a really easy thing you can do is you can go back to a significant relationship that you've had recently. So say, if you're more anxiously attached, pay attention to the moments where you may have felt jealous, where you felt like, you know, your partner wasn't going to respond back to you after a text message. Take the time just to even write out some of the thoughts that you might have been having at that particular moment, just to start separating yourself a little bit from it. The second thing that I highly recommend, just to even get this, you know, this work really rolling is also develop an emotional regulation technique. I am a huge fan of techniques like rage journaling, of just writing out how I'm feeling from time to time and even dialoguing with certain parts of myself when they come up. And that's a bit of an advanced technique, but one of the best things that I found is just that anytime I feel a major emotion just to really express it. And the final part that I'm actually going to recommend, which does connect a little bit to dialoguing, is one of my favorite techniques that I think is really essential is, and this is especially true for anyone who's experiencing insecure attachment, is I would start meeting an inner critic. Often I find people with insecure attachment habits, scathing voice, telling them you're anxious. Well, if you did x, y, z, then this person wouldn't have left you. Whereas the avoidant might have, well, you know, you're a bad person, so they're not going to want to be with you anyways. You might as well try and cover that shit up because if they find out who you are, they're going to reject you or they're going to shout at you. And so the reason I think that part is really important to address before any of the other stuff is because if you attempt to meet your inner child or to do any of this other stuff without addressing that part of you, good luck, because that can cut you into a million pieces and it's very easy to just tell it to shut the fuck up. But, you know, for those of us that are in you know, in the mental health world, we know that that actually is the worst thing you can do to that part of yourself. So I'd say to round at that piece is it's really good to learn how to communicate and validate and hear what that part of you is saying and to unpack a lot of that fiery, as it said, than done. Probably best with a clinician. But just want to say, just beginning that awareness, developing your emotional regulation, and even just getting into dialogue with that inner critic can do so much good foundational stuff.
• 44:11
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Thanks for sharing all that. I think there's some great, great tips there. Yeah. For me, I would. There's a strong correlation for me in my experience and in the experience of the people that I work with around anger and anger of the childhood that never was there. Or, you know, it's anger that is manifesting on the top layer and grief sits underneath it. A grief of all of the unmet needs that led to the attachment trauma. So I think anger work and I want to give a shout out to the episode that I released, I think it was four weeks ago, called dealing with, or dealing with anger in healthy ways or something like that. That's going to give a lot of people that do have maybe unresolved anger sitting underneath that is fueling some of this stuff. Definitely go to that episode and take that, listen to that, or watch that. And then another thing. So ten years ago, I learned about attachment from me within myself. I learned about it in school, but where I actually understood what insecure attachment felt like. And I was in a relationship with a very avoidant guy, which activated the anxious side of my attachment style. And I was sent on a 18 month horrible journey. I had adrenal fatigue. Um, I was, had insomnia. It was terrible because my mind would not shut off. I had such a highly activated nervous system. So the biggest thing is to educate yourself, like, understand, like, what your attachment style is, first of all. Like, if you're just having all of these big emotions and you're not sure what is actually going on, you know, take our attachment style quiz. We have that on our website. The link will be in the show notes. Um, take the quiz, learn what your attachment style is and then go from there. And I would recommend, like, like you said, working with a therapist or, or a coach or somebody that can support you, that is trauma, like attachment trauma trained. That's really important. You want to have somebody that understands attachment theory and they can work with you on helping you understand your needs and how to set boundaries and how to feel emotions. I just think that's such a huge part of. Of this work. And then the last one I'll say is, have compassion, because this has probably been. I've been through a lot of things in my life, and I had a crack addiction for seven years. And healing my attachment style was way harder than overcoming an addiction. It was very, very challenging for me. It was ten years. I'm still working through it. And depending on the amount of trauma that you had, will obviously depend on maybe the length of the duration of the healing journey. But it's so. Just have so much compassion for yourself and know that you're not defective, you're not flawed, you're not broken, you can still love and be in relationships with an insecure attachment. It just takes little nuances and you have to communicate, and you have to show up and express yourself and these sorts of things. And I do believe that people can heal in relationships. If you are an anxious or avoidant person and you get in a relationship with someone who's attuned to you and they are more secure, that can pull. It's like the people pulling out of the crab bucket, right? Other crabs. Pulling other crabs out of the crab bucket. That's what a secure attacher can do for us, is help us heal, because they know the. The remedy they. They're able to attune and help us meet our needs. So, um, yeah, well, so many things, honestly, we could do a whole episode on healing and developing secure attachment, which, uh, you know, maybe that could be our next one in. In the fall, but, uh, who knows, right?
• 47:48
  Speaker B: Yeah. I love everything you said, like, not only from, you know, the importance of anger, but also the significance of compassion as well, too. Because I think that both, like, having a healthy outlet for anger is so cathartic, and healing and compassion, I think, is a very understated, yet necessary part of us building our own re parenting for ourselves as well, too. And it sounds like, I know it's a little bit twee and quaint when people say, you need to learn to love yourself. I actually think, whilst that phrase is not entirely accurate, I think you actually do need to learn to accept love in order to be able to be with someone else. Because, like I said before, about being addicted to unhappiness, if your nervous system is rejected love, then you got a problem. And even if, like, I agree with you about the crab bucket analogy of being with someone secure, but I want to add to that a secure attachment is not the answer. So if you're dating someone with a secure attachment, it won't necessarily mean that it will save you from your insecure attachment. You have to be willing to work on this sort of stuff, you know, when you talk briefly about, you know, what it was like being with an avoidant ten years ago. It's funny, I have often said to people, like, just because people who are disorganized or dismissive avoidance may not recognize the impact of what they do to people when they're leaving a relationship. They know it when they get with someone who is more avoidant than them. And it embrace, like, I mean, it's often I find, like, my come to Jesus moment. And also my work on my attachment began when I had an avoidance situation shift five years ago because it made me realize, oh, my God. Like, I didn't even recognize that I had all this anxious attachment stuff inside of me. And it was. Even though it was the most painful and hardest thing to ever, like, that I ever had to overcome, I am so infinitely grateful for it because that was the catalyst that got me to where I am today. But I will say that breakup was the hardest thing that I ever went through in my life, emotionally speaking. And I know people who've been in narcissistic relationships and have said to me, yes, the NarC was bad, but nothing was as bad as that breakup was, because when you go through that, it just triggers every abandonment wound in your body. It is horrific.
• 49:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I agree. I think that people like, you know, on the healing journey, like, you're not going to be drawn to a securely attached person until you get to a certain point. Right. And that's kind of that point where I think they can pull you out, they can help you as long as you're doing the work. I think that was well said. I couldn't agree more. I think that's really important. There was something else that got activated when you said I was going to say something, but it's escaped me for now. But it'll. Yeah. Anything else that you want to. Because we should wrap up here, but is there anything else that you think is important to note or leave the audience with?
• 50:36
  Speaker B: Yeah, I just want to say that whilst developing a secure attachment can have tremendous benefits, relationally speaking, I also want to say to the listeners that it can also have a tremendous impact on so many other areas of your life, too. Because attachment doesn't just happen in our romantic areas of life. It happens with our relationship, with money, with our profession. And if you do overcome a lot of this stuff, you will actually see just a huge net positive in a lot of other areas of your life, too.
• 51:11
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 51:11
  Speaker B: Whilst the journey is hard, you will, I'm sorry, but you are going to lose people along the journey, because that's just how it works. Unfortunately, when you've developed self, you realize, okay, I'm outgrowing a lot of people in my life, too. You know, the benefit of a lot of this is you overcome a lot of, and this is something you talk a lot in your podcasts, is you overcome a lot of crippling loneliness. You also, I think, develop a greater sense of peace, and you will probably find a greater sense of purpose and mission for your life as well, too. And I think, look, I really want to end this podcast episode. Echoing what you said, that, yes, change is possible for some. I understand it may not be a possibility, and it is what it is. Everyone's on their own journey. But if you can commit to this part of your journey, then I think you will find that it does lead to a lot of incredible things for you. It just may not be maybe what you're immediately thinking it will look like, because it is a very evolving experience.
• 52:10
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And I want. We could go on all night, but I want to say this, secure is, like, securely attached. I think oftentimes we can look at it as, like, it's perfect. Once you get there, you're perfect, you're no longer activated. And that could be. Couldn't be further from the truth. Truth. The difference. The difference between somebody who's secure versus insecure. A secure person can still get anxious by dating a highly avoidant person, but the difference is that they don't make it mean anything about them. They're able to kind of stand in their power and say, this is about them, not about me. Whereas an insecure person, specifically an anxious person, is going to say, this means that I'm not worthy, I'm not lovable, you know, I don't belong. Like, that's what. That's what happens. So I think a secure person has worked through their core wounds that get stimulated by, you know, relationship activations, whatever that might be. So I want to just. I wanted to say that because we don't want to strive to be perfect, because when we do that, we bypass and we end up being stoic and over regulated like an avoidant person would be in the first place. So a secure person still has big emotions. They still feel. They still get, you know, heartbroken. They still feel betrayed. Like, it's all. It's all part of it. Human emotions are messy and biggest and they're going to bring up stuff for us. So I just. I had to say that because I don't want people to think that, you know, when you're dating a secure person that they're perfect and that they never, you know, get upset or angry or have conflict and these sorts of things.
• 53:37
  Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely not. I mean, look, I would argue that I've definitely feel more secure in my attachment now, but there are moments where I'll have a part of myself come up where I'm like, oh, that's my anxiety again, better go have a chat with that. And I think that to your point about not taking things personally, you're absolutely right. Like, I think the less you make someone's behavior mean something about yourself. And I really speak to my ex attached audience when I say this, the healthier you will feel like. I mean, a concept that I don't think either of us have talked about is there is a need for developing a positive narcissism in ourselves. In terms of being, like, my needs matter. I am important. What I say matters because frankly, I should be the arbiter of myself. And whatever anyone else has to say, I will, you know, take their opinions with a grain of salt because I have to put myself first. And that's going to trick a lot of people who may be used to, you know, more forms of modesty, of not wanting to, you know, praise their own accolades. I get it. But there is real benefit in putting yourself first, and it doesn't mean it's going to be easy and there are going to be moments where you make mistakes, but such as the life of being a human being.
• 54:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. There's so much I could say, but you'll be on again. I have a good feeling about that. So we'll save that for our next conversation because I do want to keep this under an hour. But honestly, well, before I wrap up, I want to say, building better relationships course, we have a course that can bring you from a to z in some of these technical things. If you want to learn more about attachment styles, learn more about navigating conflict, how to get your needs met. We developed a course in the Gaiman's brotherhood about this. So that'll be in the show, in the show notes as well. And then just so much gratitude to you, to coming. For those of you who don't know, it is Ken's birthday today, and he chose to spend the first few hours of his birthday with me with us, sharing his wisdom. So thank you so much for that. We appreciate that.
• 55:32
  Speaker B: You're very welcome. I'll be honest, when you suggested the date and the time, I was like, well, we are talking about attachment and I do enjoy having this conversation. And I, you know, we've had good banshees. I was like, yeah, I'll treat myself to this. This won't feel like work. So I was very happy. Thank you very much. I'm very grateful to have this birthday moment as well, too.
• 55:50
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, it's always so stimulating. I love creating with you. It's just so easy and it vibes, it goes back and forth like a ping pong game. So I love it. And yeah, for people that are maybe not joined us yet in the Facebook group gay men's brotherhood, come and join us there and share some of your thoughts. If you're watching on YouTube, share some thoughts in the comments about what this, this conversation stimulated for you. We'd love to hear from you. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please give us a rating. Hopefully five stars. If you enjoyed what you heard today. This helps us get into the ears of people that need this information, this content for their own healing journey. So, yeah, until next time, everybody. Much love.