Latest / The Midlife Pivot / What Chinese Medicine Reveals About Stress, Sleep, and Menopause w/ Dr. Thalia Kazakos Omar | 006
Transcript
- The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Today we're looking at midlife and women's health through a very different lens. Our guest today is Dr. Thalia Kazakhis Omar, a doctor of Chinese medicine, licensed acupuncturist, and the founder of Muse Medicine and the Muse, a healing arts and wellness studio in New York City. Thalia's journey into healing is fascinating. Her background has taken her from sustainable agriculture and plant medicine to movement, dance, and yoga, and ultimately to acupuncture, Chinese herbal medicine, and integrative health. At Muse Medicine, she takes a whole person approach to wellness, looking beyond an individual symptom to understand what may be happening throughout the body. Her work encompasses women's health, hormonal and reproductive health. Stress and emotional well-being, pain management, digestive health, and even holistic approaches to beauty and aging. And that made us especially interested in talking to her about midlife. Because this is a time when so many women suddenly feel as their bodies they've known for decades are changing the rules. Sleep changes, energy changes, hormones change, stress can feel different, our skin and bodies change, and sometimes. The answer we're given is simply it's part of getting older. Thalia offers another perspective that perhaps instead of fighting our bodies, we can learn to listen to them differently. So today we're going to explore what ancient Chinese medicine can teach modern women about navigating midlife, managing stress, supporting our changing bodies, and ultimately feeling more connected to ourselves as we move into this next chapter. Thalia? Well welcome to the midlife pivot. Thalia: Thank you so much. Very excited to be here. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Kristen McGee is our is our mutual connection. When Kristen mentioned you to me, I I won't lie, I was certainly initially, I don't know whether this is the path that I want to go. And I have to say, after spending the hour that you and I, maybe it was even more, that you and I got to chat a little bit, I had this. Honestly, this renewed perspective on what you do and what you have to offer. And I remember coming to you and saying, my god, I mean, I have not stopped talking about you since we spoke ten days ago or whenever we spoke. I mean, I've told my girls about you, Thalia: Aww, that's so sweet. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: I've told my friends about you, and everybody's like, This is gonna be one we wanna listen to. Didn't you just Thalia: Ooh. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: say that you Yeah, I mentioned it and they said, my God, please get a card, you know? We gotta listen if we want to. Unfortunately for my Maryland folks, Thalia is in the New York area, as I mentioned in the intro. But you know what, her wisdom and her knowledge is just so profound, and I am so excited to share you with our viewership here on the Midlife Pivot. So, with that being said, we are going to go ahead and ask you a couple questions. So hopefully we'll we'll get some great insight into what you do. All right, so Thalia. Your own path to this work wasn't necessarily a straight line. You came from a background that included sustainable agriculture, plant medicine, dance, movement, and yoga before becoming a doctor of Chinese medicine. What ultimately led you to create Muse Medicine? Thalia: So I guess it started when I had my own health struggles in my mid-20s. For background, my parents are both nurse practitioners and they were certified nurse midwives my whole life. So I grew up in a women's health-focused home with two women that worked in maternal ill health, but also Western medicine because they were working in hospitals and at a clinic. So I got a little bit of both the more holistic approach, but also the Western medical system as a framework. And when I was in my mid-20s, I was living in Mexico, developing a permaculture project, piece of property. We had extensive orchards, a mycology lab, just all sorts of stuff going on there. And I had complete burnout and adrenal fatigue. I developed endometriosis. I had terrible cystic acne. I had digestive issues from the water, so I kind of hit rock bottom at an early age. I also herniated my L4-5 when I was 21, which is very uncommon when undiagnosed because of that. I sought out an acupuncturist because I had some, I had a raw dessert business that I was also operating out of this project. And we ended up doing an exchange for treatment. And I remember after my first treatment, I had never felt that way before I felt like I was floating on a cloud. It was kind of an intense experience, but I walked out of there like with a totally new experience of life and being in my body and calm. And I started going regularly and then I started seeing other acupuncturists and I just within maybe six months had completely resolved my menstrual issues. The gut stuff took a little bit longer. The skin stuff has been a long journey, but The way it changed my body and helped me heal in such a short time was so inspiring. And I had been feeling like I wanted to offer more to people. I wanted to get more involved with people's healing. And as a yoga teacher and working in agriculture, I wasn't able to do that. I didn't have the knowledge or the skill set or the scope. And I also lacked the passion I saw in my colleagues for things like soil biology or just working with the land. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: So interesting, yeah. Thalia: Like people were so driven and passionate and I was doing it almost out of we need more people doing this, which we still do. And I want to support those people, but my passion and drive was in working with human. beings one-on-one in healing environments, healing spaces. So I thought, what a perfect marriage of both Western medical science and legitimate medical practice and more esoteric, more spiritual aspects of the human experience and healing. So I decided to pursue a degree in acupuncture, which is a master's program in the US. And then I went on to get my doctorate because I wanted to kind of bridge some of the gaps I saw in healthcare between Eastern medical practitioners and the masses or what is digestible and approachable. So for you to say that, that you were excited after talking to me makes me so happy because that's kind of part of the reason I went into this was to turn more people onto this ancient, holistic way of approaching health, which I believe is part kind of intrinsic part of a lot of cultures. not just Eastern, but you'll find it all over the world. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. That's absolutely interesting. So interesting. So interesting and amazing Thalia: Hmm. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: too. I think when one's passionate about what they do, that can just absolutely, boil over into what you're ultimately going to provide to somebody. So clearly you you have that. Thalia: Absolutely. Yes. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: And it's it's so important also to be able not to influence, but to explain to people who don't know what it's all about. It's only when you experience it that you realize it's helping. So I want to know, for someone who has never experienced acupuncture or Chinese medicine, how would you explain the fundamental difference between the Eastern approach to health and the Western medicine most of us grew up with? Thalia: Yes, so it's very different. I would say Western medicine is it targets symptoms. It doesn't look for a deeper understanding of root causes generally, or if it does, approaches it in a different way, not necessarily shifting it, but masking it or suppressing it. It doesn't have a deep understanding of how everything is holistically connected, different organ systems. Parts of the mind-body-spirit connection, it's very A to B to C. And Eastern medicine, at its root and its origin is a very holistic, interconnected approach to health where everything influences everything else. most symptoms are related. which is why I think for patients that are dealing with chronic illness or somewhat ambiguous, mysterious issues will come and they'll finally have answers to all their questions. And instead of feeling dismissed or not listened to or, that's your dry eyes are not related to your anxiety and your inability to fall asleep, you find out, actually, those are all the same pattern. They're all treated the same way. And when we address that root cause, whether it's like yin or blood deficiency or whatever, everything gets better. And you start to notice that the side effects of your acupuncture treatment are also benefits, which is a huge difference because we often have to compromise in Western medicine of like, well, if I don't take this, I'll die. But I also now get chronic headaches. I have tinnitus. My stomach isn't the same. I've gained weight. I've lost my libido, whatever The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Yeah. Thalia: else. So I mean, I could go on and on, but I would say it's a full systems holistic approach versus a symptoms-based treatment. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Okay. Thank you. That's great. Yeah. Thalia: Eheh. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Yeah. Absolutely. So for for certainly for myself and and for women, midlife can feel like the moment when a woman's body suddenly starts behaving differently. I mean, no question, we see hormonal change, sleep, your energy, weight, mood, digestion. So from a Chinese medicine perspective, what is actually happening? during this stage of life. Thalia: I like to remind everyone that evolution has its own intelligence, right? People often say, well, we used to die when we were 40, right? Back in the The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Yeah. Thalia: olden days. But actually, in ancient China, people were living into a hundred early hundreds, right? So maybe our idea of longevity needs to be rethought. And every woman has seven life, seven year life cycles where there's shifts. And at 49 is when there is a depletion of the Chong Mai, which is the vessel that runs through the uterus. And there is a shift in where our fertile energy and blood exists in our body. And these are, some of these are not. from the classics, but more modern adaptations. But there's this notion and interpretation of the second spring in Chinese medicine where menopause is a period of renewal and where the energy and the potential that is used to create new life moves up into the heart and can be used to birth wisdom, intuition, creative processes. And it's a type of spiritual enrichment that happens. And blood. is the yin substance in the body, which carries our consciousness, our memories, our spirit. and we can see this in Western medical explanation. So we often call this the freshman 15, right? Where women gain weight when they're in college. Okay, so that's the 21 year cycle. And then everyone's like, wait till you're 30 or wait till you're almost 40. So you'll see this gradual shift and everyone's not everyone is aligned, of course, but some people have their menstruation into their 50s or they start perimenopause in their mid 30s. It's different for everyone. But generally this these life cycles are natural. They're innate in our biology and they can happen in a graceful and elegant fashion where we kind of move through them without sudden shifts or symptoms that are problematic to our life and kind of embrace each new phase and the virtues it offers to us. So as we move through menopause, there is often symptoms that arise, which are typically insomnia, hot flashes, dryness. mood changes. So a lot of this we would categorize as yin deficiency. And yin is what gives us the ability to feel calm, collected, cool, restful. We can look at this, if anyone's familiar with the term sanguine, which means optimistic, at ease, joyful, positive. So sanguine comes from the Latin root sangre, which means blood. Blood is the yin substance. there's a lot of crossover with this concept and what blood gives to us as beings and then the opposite of blood is Qi, which is a yang substance. So action, expansion, all that. as women living in modern societies that are very demanding, that reward productivity, that push people all the time, that don't honor the monthly cycles, many women approach this timeline and they're already very blood and yin deficient. So this natural phase of life can be quite jarring, quite uncomfortable because we're adjusting hormones and we don't have any yin left to kind of ride through this life phase. So that's a way to look at it in terms of planning ahead and self-care is like you want to always, as a woman, you want to be replenishing yin. your entire life and you want to be choosing yin activities, eating yin foods, incorporating yin practices, yin herbs, if you need that, especially if you're yin deficient. And that is kind of a key and a perspective shift. nothing's wrong with you, you just need more yin and here are the multitude of ways you can get more. And reframing what midlife is and what it means to take care. Something else I was thinking to bring up is a lot of, I've noticed especially in a city like New York that's so fast paced, self-care becomes another thing to check off the box, another chore, oftentimes another form of self-punishment, exercise where it's this like intense endurance-based high cortisol experience where you're not actually helping your body. You might even be preventing your body from losing weight because you're putting it into a caloric deficit where your body holds on to things, which that's a whole other topic. I think reframing phase of life and what it means to be a woman and to take care of your hormonal chemistry is the key to incorporating the wisdom. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: I told you she was fascinating. Fascinating. I told you she was fascinating. And I could never eloquently tell anybody. I've been, as I said, I've been talking about you since I since I had the opportunity. Thalia: Aww. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: And honestly, in listening to you say it all over again, it's like kind of sinking in even more. And I truly hope that that everybody gets to really sit down and listen to this because we do. Thalia: Yeah. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: We, you know, we we tend to live in a society where we always want to look at the negative. And we want to see, so now we're going into menopause and we want to look at the negative of what menopause is. But something you said Thalia: Mm-hmm. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: to me, and you kind of alluded to it a little bit in the beginning of this explanation, is it is a rebirth. You know, it's not the end of our life, it's the beginning of the second phase Thalia: Hmm, yes. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: of our life. So, as you had explained to me before, it, you know, we've gone through this puberty, we go through our, you know, first phase. 50 years of life. Most people go through menopause Thalia: Totally. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: at 50. And then we have 50. And and I, you know, mom and I laugh about it all the time. We're live to we're gonna live to a hundred. So we have this next 50 that we have to get through, and it is a rebirth. And we can, you know, Thalia: Yes. Yeah. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: we have to stop looking at it from a negative perspective and kind of turn. And again, something I talk about every week on the podcast is making lemonade out of lemons. And this is just another way that we can take our bodies and Think about how we can move forward. It's just fascinating. And what you just shared with me, and hopefully that, you know, viewers and listeners is is remarkable. I mean, you you don't think about it Thalia: Yeah. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: from that perspective. You know, we're so focused on knowing that we're going to go through menopause and nobody's spoken about menopause and you know, going Thalia: Right. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: into the second chapter in our in our lives. my God, phenomenal. Thalia: I've heard too just in general in healthcare, people are even more dismissive of women's health issues over a certain age. It's like bad enough, but after a certain age, my mom talks about that all the time and she works in healthcare. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Yeah. Thalia: And then I think too another just societal thing is like honoring and respecting elders in a different way. We have not carried that into Western culture in the same way as it exists, maybe Western Europeans to some extent. I know Mediterranean families are very into elders. My husband's family is South Asian. It's a different approach. Eastern medicine honors elders, the wisdom they carry, the knowledge. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Yeah. Yeah. Thalia: I think that's a reframing too, and that fits right in, is if all your consciousness and enrichments moving to your heart, you're no longer focused on procreation. You're focused on your spirit. That's a beautiful thing to remember and to remind each other of. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Such a beautiful thing. Well, I I have a friend who is South Asian, and she always says to me when I say how wonderful my children are to us, my husband and myself, and how they welcome us and are there for us. And she says, Yes, this is how our culture is. Our culture Thalia: Yeah. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: is it's time for us to be able to be there for our parents and help them and see that everything, you know, they need in in their Thalia: Yes. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: But I also wanted to say one thing that comes up repeatedly in your work is treating the whole person rather than just Thalia: Mm-hmm. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: an isolated symptom. If a woman comes to you saying, I'm exhausted, I'm not sleeping, and I just don't want to feel myself anymore, what are you looking for that perhaps we aren't accustomed to being asked about in traditional medicine? Thalia: Yes, well, I think it's the relationship to deficiency and to take away that like negative connotation with deficiency, but replenishment, tonification, like tonification will come up as a misspelled word if you type it on a word doc, but that's a huge term we use with acupuncture. There's tonifying herbs, tonifying needle techniques. So looking less at what we need to take away, which is often, for example, in anxiety. Anxiety is often a blood deficiency symptom. You can't settle, your heart's racing, you're not cool, calm and collected. How do we treat that in Western medicine? Often something that kind of disconnects that experience, suppresses that emotional agitation or whatever it is. But in Chinese medicine, we would give you something to help. settle and calm that versus like take away a part of it. So I think looking at enrichment and nourishment as a form of healing versus getting rid of things or being different and knowing our innate constitution is our best, is the best version of ourselves. We look to honor people as they are and give them the virtues. So we all have the five elements. We lean towards different Some of us are woodier, some of us are earthier, but we all are our best when we're in our full expression. So someone who is vigilant by nature, planning, taking into account resource focus, that's a strength of theirs. So how do we nourish their water element so they can live their best life versus suppress it and make them more like everybody else or whatever it is. If you're exhausted, you're chi deficient, you might be blood deficient. If you don't feel like yourself, there could be a disconnect between your heart and kidney access, which is a beautiful concept where the kidney is the throne and the heart is the ruler. So we need to put the queen back on her throne. There's a treatment for that. I met a doctor that was like, Yeah, I work just in heart and kidney disease relationship. And I was like, so there's like a West, there's a whole Western medicine world department where people study that relationship. So even deeper, goes deeper into the spiritual side. So sleeping, we look at the ability to fall asleep is blood deficiency and the ability to stay asleep is yin deficiency. So depending where you show up in that spectrum, we would either give you blood nourishing herbs, yin nourishing herbs, a combination of both, and we'd look at maybe lifestyle, sleep hygiene when you're starting to wind down so you're not getting your second. wind that happens around 11, there's this beautiful concept that your ethereal soul lives in your liver and it untethers to commune with the heavens between the hours of 1 and 3 a.m. to plan and make vision for your life. So if you're not sleeping, you might feel unmotivated, directionless. So we want to get, you know, there's that's why and that is the thing in Ayurveda. I think they've even proven that there's cortisol spikes that happen in Western medicine at 11, and that's when you enter a gold bladder. So it's all connected, it's all very poetic, The Midlife Pivot Podcast: I can fall asleep beautifully but it's that staying asleep that I that I Thalia: Staying asleep, yeah. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: struggle with. I mean I don't get more than five hours and I try, I wear a sleep mask, I do everything that Thalia: Yeah. Yeah. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: I you know that I should, and I really struggle with kind of getting more than about five hours. so I need to look into the yin, yeah. Thalia: Yes, and yin, yeah, yin herbs, which they're different for everybody and you can be blood deficient or yin deficient or both or whatever, you know, there's, can have mixed patterns, but yin also, when you have yin deficiency, there's the dryness, heat symptoms, and that's, I would say the most common menopausal thing is a yin deficiency. Perfect. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: The next time I'm in New York, I'll be consulting with you and I will I will get my yin I will get my yin back. I'll get my yin back. Well, talking about that, stress Thalia: Yes, we all need more yin. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: seems to become particularly important in midlife. How does chronic stress show up physically in the body? And what role can acupuncture and Chinese medicine play in regulating the nervous system? Thalia: Yes, that's a good one. So stress, I think, is different for everyone as is anxiety. I always ask in, well, are you overthinking, ruminating, obsessive thoughts? Are you having heart palpitations? Are you having existential dread where you're just like afraid of everything, the sky is falling? So what's the flavor? All of the above. Are you tense? Are your muscles clenching? Are you getting sick all the time? Because that would all indicate different organ systems and different issues. And like our immune system, for example, can go out of whack in different directions. It can be overactive, underactive, a little bit of both. So in terms of nervous system regulation, Acupuncture helps you enter a parasympathetic state where your body can do all that rebalancing and healing and recalibrating that it can't do when you're in a sympathetic state, which we talk a lot about, you know, if you're running to a meeting, your body and nervous system doesn't know the same difference as running from a tiger necessarily. So in New York, we live in and then add the layer of just chaos that exists here. There is a vigilance and arousal, is like a fast track to adrenal fatigue and nervous system dysregulation in Chinese medicine. It's a water element where you're like one eye behind you, everything on your to-do list, go, go, go. So acupuncture kind of gives you that place to calm down, feel safe, feel at ease, and your body will start to do what it's designed innately to do, which is achieve homeostasis, heal, defend from external pathogens, and repair. Cellular repair is happening every night. And I'm sure we've all had those experiences, whether it's a rash or we pulled a muscle where we wake up and we're like, wow, or we're sick and we wake up and we're like, I feel great, my fever is gone, my knee doesn't hurt, whatever. So we know we see that miracle of sleep every night. So acupuncture gives you a little bit of a boost in that arena because it's also working with your body's biochemistry to release endorphins, are happy chemicals, natural painkillers. It releases peptides, opioid analogs. There's a whole slew of things they've proven and also a whole world of things they have yet to prove because there's not a lot of funding. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: where do you believe acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine can fit into a woman's menopause toolkit? And what can they Thalia: Yes. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: realistically help with? Thalia: Yeah, everything really. I remember I had a woman come early 50s for hot flashes and symptoms. I kid you not, two treatments and maybe a day on herbs, she left a review like, my hot flashes are gone. And I'm like, that's remarkable. Some people it is that quick. It's like a scale tip. I like to look at health as... It's the scale. what's that one thing? Because it's never one thing. It's an accumulation, but sometimes it can feel like one thing. So you can be moving along, teetering, and then you put something heavy enough on the scale and it tips and you're better and you feel relief and things clear up and your body can take control and work in the right direction. You know, we see that with injuries oftentimes. Like maybe you just needed a week more of rest or you were always re-injuring it because you never gave it. the chance. So I think the main things, absolutely the heat symptoms, easy stuff, low hanging fruit would be hot flashes, insomnia, dryness, what else? Irritability, absolutely. Libido. There's a lot of just all the typical things and then perimenopausal start replenishing. the yin so that it's different experience and you're not feeling depleted by the time your body's natural process begins to shift. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Yeah. Right. Perfect. Yeah. Thalia: And these are lifelong, like you can get acupuncture as much as you want. I have people come for an issue, then they come weekly for self care, but herbs are something, herbs in diet and lifestyle is something you're doing for yourself every day. So it's like, those are those real heavy hitting things and they cost you nothing or herbs are very inexpensive. You have to eat anyway. So incorporating some of that, those traditions and tools into your daily self care will make a huge difference as well. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: I know that insurances and Medicare will not Thalia: Mm-hmm. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: approve acupuncture because of the stupid thinking of people, you know. Even some doctors turn away about acupuncture. And Thalia: Yes. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: have you tried the whole acupuncture world, the Chinese world, have you tried to sort of get Medicare or or insurance insurance to at least pay for half of it, you know? 'Cause it isn't cheap. You yeah. Thalia: Yeah, so yes, it's not cheap. Some insurance will cover it. There's a push. know they're trying to get Medicaid for elders to cover low back pain, right? Because they're realizing it's going to be expensive to have immobile elders in pain. So actually, it's worth us paying for it. So what people are starting to cover is pain conditions more than anything. And a lot of times that's low back pain. A lot of people have low back pain. That can often happen with menopause because the low back is ruled by the kidneys and menopause is a kidney-chi situation where your kidneys are losing essence, jing. So sometimes there's crossover, sometimes there's not. I, for example, some people have a certain amount of visits per year. I know a lot of acupuncturists try to work with people and do packages, make it more accessible. also think of, I'm like, okay, well, what would you pay for a cocktail? Would you pay that for a week's worth of herbs? Because they oftentimes are about the same price in The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right, so changing focus just a little bit. I love the part of your practice that it focuses on beauty and aging, facial acupuncture, gua sha, and microneedling. But from a much more holistic perspective. Perspective, you're doing this from a much more holistic perspective. How do you think we need to change the conversation around beauty and ageing, particularly in women in midlife? Thalia: Yes, I feel like we need to change the conversation around beauty and appearance from the moment women are born because there is so much just the beauty standards, the pressure, the trending, the trends for what people, what is considered beautiful, the unrealistic expectations, the body dysmorphia that results. from all of it. So I think there needs to be a shift of like what it means to be beautiful, seeing health as beauty, seeing vibrance as beauty, seeing glowing skin as beauty. I've struggled with skin issues, which is a hard kind of thing to accept because it's not, I just don't like how this part of me looks. It is a type of inflammation. And I think we swing the other direction with these like positivity movements, like Acne positivity, that's great, but acne is a sign that your body is inflamed and something's not healthy internally or balanced. So I think we need to seek health over anything and know when it looks good, even with movement, I think about this. When a movement feels good in the body, generally you can see that in how it manifests physically. So feeling good is more important than looking good, but feeling good, being healthy, vibrance, vitality, those are signs of beauty. And we do kind of neurologically know that in an innate way. There's a lot of aspects of attractiveness that translate into fertility or viability. But yeah, just shifting our focus and appreciating how we are unique and different features and different ways to... beautify the appearance that also support health as a focus. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: I also think what I like about what you just said is is really kind of getting to the root cause. So let's take acne for example. You know, why why do we have this? And it's fine for us to go to a dermatologist and they'll prescribe a medication and you know, we spoke about Accutane and you know people can go Thalia: Yes. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: on it. But there's a root cause for where it's coming from. Thalia: Yes. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: And I think it's addressing that and figuring out where that is. and then yeah, yeah. So that's a very interesting yeah. Yeah. Thalia: for sure. Just same with puffiness or dark circles. Dark circles are often adrenal fatigue or overuse of caffeine or cold in the womb, which is a concept we don't even know about in Western medicine or all these cold plunges. women should do, no, women should not do two minutes in cold water. There's, that can congeal blood, it can increase... menstrual pain, infertility, there's all sorts of issues with cold exposure. And they're taking this tiny little blood sample right after extreme element exposure to be like, you produced more of this and that, but what's the long-term effect? also, you know, we talk about the Wim Hof breathing. Yes, that's pranayama. That's breath work. We know breath work is good. It encourages vitality in the body. That doesn't mean that your endurance to cold is a great way to support your health. People take things out of context. The whole longevity medicine trend is very fascinating because it's a lot of this biohacking and these trinkets and gadgets and it's like, we're missing the point, which is that all of that longevity regenerative tech is within our DNA and our innate body's physiology. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: But I think what you said, I think what you said, and and you and I have spoken about this so often, is I think it's a little bit of an acceptance. I think we live in a world today, I mean, as I shared, and I'm very I'm very vocal about it, I've never had Botox. It's just something that never appealed to me. I didn't like the idea of injecting something into my face. And you know, my my my mom and I have spoken about it a lot. You've always you've always been someone that has said, I wish I'd had a face, I wish I had done this. And And and as you can see, she's stunning. She's stunning. She's 85 years old. She has had Thalia: Yes. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: no work done. She has had no Botox. She's had nothing done. And I know you look in the mirror and sometimes think to myself, my gosh, I'm so lined. You're the only one that sees that. Yes, and yet I do believe that aging skin is hereditary. My mother was lined completely, and I've come to accept that. And you know what? My mother was a beautiful woman from inside. And so are you. So it didn't matter so much. I mean, seeing my friends today, some of them have got older than me, beautiful skins. Well, they're lucky. No, but what I what I like, what Thalia is saying, is that we gotta look within. Like we can do stuff to make us better by taking herbs and by doing stuff, but to start injecting in our foreign objects into our bodies. I mean, that's for a whole nother and we said this is a whole nother another conversation. We'll bring you back for that when everybody's Thalia: Toxins at that. Yeah, that's a whole other conversation. I think it's both. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: when everybody's infatuated with you as the way I am right now. And going on with what we're Thalia: Perfect. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: talking about, food as medicine, are there nutritional Thalia: Mmm, yes. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: principles from Chinese medicine that becomes particularly important? To a woman when she enters her forties and her fifties, and beyond. Thalia: beauty in Chinese medicine is it's very nuanced and it always depends. So a woman who has had chronic digestive issues, bloating or constipation maybe isn't assimilating properly, they might experience more dryness and more loose skin because they don't have the upright chi from the nutrients, they don't have the yin, they're not absorbing it. Whereas a woman who has been in frantic stress state might have more expression lines, more tension, more kind of general signs of aging. So they do manifest differently, but absolutely as we get older, we need to focus more on our macros, more on our nutrient absorption. I also wanted to comment on dairy because dairy is an The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Yeah. Thalia: interesting one. You know, I think In many ways, dairy can be a really helpful food for people. can get a lot of nutrition in, but there is an element of it being a damp inflammatory food that can alter the hormonal landscape of women and can create systemic inflammation. And I have a bit of a theory with a lot of women who are struggling to lose, like no one is 10 pounds overweight in my opinion. Right. So when we have this kind of like inflamed puffiness where we're like, if I could just lose 10 pounds, I think oftentimes it's inflammation in our tissue that we're upset about more than it is fat. And when we shift our diets, even for a temporary period, like we can do cleanups for weeks or months. We don't have to do a total lifestyle overhaul. We'll often see a shift in our tissues and we will lose this quote unquote weight or inflammation. And we just needed to give our body a little break, a little reset, a reframing of nourishment. So I think there's some crossover and just inflammation we're living with based on stress, processed foods, chemicals in foods, pollution in the environment, and how it's manifesting in our tissue. And I think that's something I see a lot. So yeah. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: that and I think the younger generation are are conforming. I mean I know with my girls they've definitely said that. My older daughter has often said Mom Dairy just she loves it, but she said, I know it's just it it not it works in my body world. And my younger Thalia: Yeah. Yeah. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: one knows that these, you know, seed oils and all the stuff that we've kind of put in our food is so they're trying to educate me. Thalia: Totally. And there's a lot that goes into dairy via factory farming, like sure, grass-fed or ghee, like there's different qualities, but just there's this huge push, this like protein, protein, protein, or keto, and it's like these approaches often make things The Midlife Pivot Podcast: To be a balance. Thalia: worse or swing you in the other direction. Yeah, so The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Yeah. Thalia: I think... just back to the basics and true nourishing kind of ancestral style eating. Maybe you look into some blood type stuff or your ethnic background The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Right. Thalia: to influence like what foods you process better. I think there's a lot of refinement we can do that's not punishment, but it's inspiring and exciting because we start to see results or we're drinking Tramella mushroom tea or we're... The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Exactly. Thalia: you know, we're getting enough vitamin C, because like the whole collagen thing, that's not collagen isn't going to do anything if your body can't synthesize it. What do you need to synthesize it? Vitamin C and what blocks vitamin C? Sugar. So it's like you're better off having orange juice, even though we've been like, juice The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Right. Thalia: is so bad. It's like, yeah, when you mix it with like whole milk, no one does that. It would curdle. But you know what I mean. There's a lot of this kind of like A granola bar that's high in sugar and processed food is not maybe what you need versus whatever. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: There's a trend now that's going around peptides. People talk about peptides. So can you e sort of explain a little to us? Thalia: yes, yes peptides. Yes, actually, I came back from Scotland the other week and I watched the ozempic effect, which was, I had a whole moment with it. So peptides, there's so many peptides, right? It's such a broad term. Acupuncture makes your body produce peptides. There are some that are more oral supplements that are less bad. that have anti-inflammatory effects, regenerative effects. So if peptides across the board, we can't say they're bad or good, but GLP-1 as a substance, it works by shutting down the digestive system, And it changes our, how we experience rewards in the brain. So it impacts our addiction or our desire to drink, the food noise, but it basically keeps stomach. food in our stomach and digestive tract for longer so we feel full, we can eat less. And so in some ways that can be really helpful for people where they kind of get this whole mind reset and reframing around snacking and consumption and then along The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Mm-hmm. Thalia: with their GLP-1 they're starting to work out more and make better choices and eat better food. but it's also I think about our spleen which is the yin of our digestive, so we have spleen and stomach. Spleen is where our intellect lives. we ruminate, where we process and digest, where we, our upright chi, our immune system is greatly involved, our fertility. And so there's all these other long-term side effects of like, your bones lose density, your muscles lose density. I can tell. When I have someone who is on GLP-1, can feel it in their tissue, in their face when I touch them, when I palpate. all to say, I think there's value in flipping a switch, right? Breaking a cycle, breaking a pain cycle, an emotional cycle, seeing light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe if you've been living with a ton of excess weight for years, like maybe that... reset is so healing and helpful, it ignites a totally new chapter for you. But you have to be careful about how long you continue on that, how you integrate it into daily life, and knowing that in a way it's reframing your ability to connect with your intellect, your appetite, your spleen gives you your appetite or not. your nurturing, your spleen is about earth, it's about nurtured reciprocity, thoughtfulness. So it's almost like, is that a good thing or is it a bad thing? And how and to what end? And of The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Yeah. Thalia: course the impacts on your body can't be good if the goal is to get stronger and thinner. And I have another theory, like I've been all, when I moved to New York, I gained 30 pounds. I was like having tempura all the time, whatever it was. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Yes. Thalia: I did a few resets. just, feel like our bodies, and of course we have genetics, we're all different, but our bodies like gentleness. They like to recover. They need that time. When you deprive them of nourishment, they hold on to things. When you don't rest, things become inflamed. So I think with women especially, less can be more. Gentle exercise can get you as physically fit and vibrant as we think endurance exercise will get if not more so. And your metabolism changes. My husband's always like, your metabolism is so fast. I'm like, I mean, I could say it's genetic, but it's my whole family isn't like this. So I think there The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Right. Thalia: is an element of nurturing and balancing the action with the rest that creates healthier bodies. And maybe that would, if we looked at other populations and cultures we could find how, know, Mediterranean, whatever, whatever it is. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: It is fascinating. Right? Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I mean it's fascinating. It's fascinating. It's fascinating. It's fascinating. From everything you've learned about the body, healing, aging, what do you think women misunderstand most about this chapter of their lives? And you've just explained it. So you went so Thalia: Yes. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: deeply into it. What do you think? Thalia: I think it's a great opportunity for people to reestablish or reacquaint themselves with their true passions and interests. Maybe for many of us, this is when we're no longer raising children or, you know, or they're more independent. They're going into high school or middle school. You're not dealing with small children or they're going off to college or maybe menopause. that essence and resources is reallocating to different parts. you know, midlife is like, it's a big phase, right? Like 35 to 60 or what are we thinking, right? That's a big, there's a large spectrum. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Right. Exactly. Thalia: I even was saying like, I'm 30, I'll be 36 in a month, but I was like, I'm having like a midlife moment, cause I kind of like opened a new business. So I think just looking deeper into what you, what you still want to explore in life, gifts you might have to offer that haven't been offered yet, or the things you've developed through your journey, much of which is hardship. We talk a lot about that in acupuncture, like the healer's journey or the wounded healer. When you go through hardship, you can often alchemize it into something really beautiful and meaningful for other people. I think... you know, looking at it as that way and you have all this experience behind you and wisdom to share and you can enter that with grace and confidence because you deserve that and we as a society will see that and respect that, or we as other people, you know, even if we're not implementing it all the time, that is part of the human experience, right? Wisdom. So, and the water phase in life. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: Right, right, right. Absolutely. You have given us so much food you have just given us so much food for thought. I Thalia: Uh-huh. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: I'm so I'm so honored to be able to share your wisdom with those that take the time to listen Thalia: Thank you. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: to this because it it has it changed my perspective. And you know, I was and again, I'll I'll kind of say a tongue-in-cheek, but I didn't want it to be kind of woo-woo, and it's not. You've given us such fantastic, Thalia: Yeah. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: fundamental advice that we can really step back and say, you know, I need to heed this advice. There's so much wonderful, information that you've given us. Our time is up. I could speak with you all day. I could keep Thalia: Lovely. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: speaking to you. I am just so truly, truly appreciative of we both are of I think you've also I I've seen I've never seen my mom Thalia: thank you. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: so enthralled in something and she's like you know I am a believer Thalia: So The Midlife Pivot Podcast: I'm a proponent Thalia: sweet. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: of everything you're saying and you've taught me so Thalia: Yeah. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: much at my eighty-five year old. I look at you and I think eighty five year young. Eighty-five. I look at you and think to myself, wow, now I've learnt Thalia: Aww, that's so sweet. Aww. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: this and I've learned that. Thank you, so thank you. I will make sure that folks know how to Thalia: Of course. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: reach out to you. As I said, I have tons of folks in the New York area. If you're interested in going to find out more about Muse Medicine I think that that you are just such an incredible resource. And as I said, you and I have a date when I'm next in New York. I I can't wait Thalia: Thank you. Yes, please let me know. The Midlife Pivot Podcast: to see you. But folks, as always, we just always like to thank you for taking the time to tune in, to get to listen. Make sure that you comment, like, subscribe on all the different social media platforms and podcast platforms that we're on. And from us here, we will see you next time.