Latest / Legal Late Night / "Special Friends," Rapping for Clients & The "Human Premium" in an AI World

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"Special Friends," Rapping for Clients & The "Human Premium" in an AI World · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00): Hello everybody. We've got a show that promises to be at least mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. I'm your host, Jared Correia. I'm the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. For the monologue, I'm discussing email management. In the interview, we've got An Ruda, Bartko Pavia LLP, and manages her law firm like no one else you've ever seen. Find out how and why. On the counter program, we've got a news segment called JD or OG. Now, let's talk about your overflowing inbox. Attorneys trafficking documents and emails mostly. Lawyers spend a lot of time working on solutions for building documents. However, they're mostly drowning in emails. It's pretty easy to give up to. Watching is something like a passive observer as your inbox count threads up into the four figures. Inbox Zero is but a fever dream. Traditionally, attorneys who have been more aggressive about managing their inboxes have done things like created subfolders for each matter and/or for certain substantive or administrative categories. (01:18): Some law firms even utilize law practice management softwares as organizational tools where they can save or archive email messages to those relational databases in order to keep their messages organized under clients and matters. Oftentimes, the creation of sub folders is simply what law firms do when they haven't uncovered the use of relational databases or they don't want to pay for one. Ideally, you should have an organized inbox that also connects to a relational database and potentially other softwares through integrations, including potentially customer relationship management or CRM tools. Lawyers who want to take email management to the next level should also consider additional products in the productivity suite. For example, one way to get emails out of the inbox is to turn them into tasks to act on. That involves the calendar tool. Another way to reduce the number of emails you have in your inbox is to turn them into projects that invokes note-taking or project management software like OneNote in Microsoft or Keep and Google. (02:20): You can also utilize the built-in organizational tools that providers now insert into their products. Gmail, for example, automatically organizes your inbox into four categories, primary, promotions, social, and updates with a good deal of accuracy. The idea being that they are taking the load off your email management by categorizing certain messages on your behalf. Of course, many products now feature AI tools at certain subscription levels and email and adjacent features, which can help you to move through email processing more quickly by getting summaries and organizational suggestions. Beyond that, attorneys who are successful at managing their inboxes may utilize a system. Once such system is a version of David Allen's getting things done, you may have heard that referred to as GTD. The idea is to reduce the mental bandwidth required for email responses. So if you can respond in two minutes or less, do so immediately. (03:18): And if not, delete the message if it's unimportant or convert it to a task to perform later on. Third-party AI-based email management tools also exist like Fixer or Superhuman, both of which purport to organize and maintain your inbox quickly and efficiently and on a regular basis. These vendors promise a higher level of organizational features than built-in programs. Of course, if you require more than just the management of your own inbox, there are also more focused products for that too. Many lawyers who want to help managing client requests will allow their staff to log into their inbox, which while convenient is a security nightmare. Don't do it. It's better to use products like Zendesk or Front to be able to manage tickets effectively across various inboxes. You may only be scraping the surface of viable email management techniques for your law firm. Up next, we've got An Ruda from Bartko Pavia LLP. (04:23): We're moving from organization to complete the total chaos. Come on back. Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast. So I will simply drink from this graphic mug, which says kind of a big deal for the next several seconds. This is really great, but I think we should interview our guest who may be even more graphic than this mug I'm holding. Our guest today is An Ruda, who's the CEO and co-managing partner of Bartko Pavia LLP. An, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you. An Ruda (05:06): Thank you for inviting me. I am looking forward to letting people hear our private conversations. As you know- I was told I could be myself. Jared Correia (05:20): You could definitely be yourself. I don't know how anyone in the firm will feel about that, but you can be yourself with me. As you know, I'm a little bit of a graphic mug aficionado, so I thought I'd bring out a good one for you today. An Ruda (05:33): You sent me a couple of mugs, if you'll recall. But you didn't include your name. Jared Correia (05:42): Correct. An Ruda (05:43): Yes. So one cm- Jared Correia (05:45): I didn't want HR tracking it back to me. An Ruda (05:48): One came after the next. The first one was, I think, organic white male tears. Jared Correia (05:53): Yes, correct. An Ruda (05:54): And the second one was something else, something else until I figured out it was you. Jared Correia (06:00): I was trying to figure out white male tears mugs. I wanted to find the best ones, but I couldn't decide between the top two. And then this is probably why I asked my wife to help me send anything because I left on my name. Kind of embarrassing. Thanks for coming on the show. I want to start here because I've never actually asked you this and I'm interested in origin stories when people come on the podcast. Why did you decide to become a lawyer other than the fame and glory? An Ruda (06:37): Oh, okay. So I graduated from UC Berkeley with a degree in English literature. So this story is like- Totally Jared Correia (06:51): Useful degree. An Ruda (06:52): Boring story. And my emphasis was African post-colonial studies. Okay? Jared Correia (06:58): Oh, wow. An Ruda (06:58): Wow. So I was so employable. All right. Jared Correia (07:02): Yeah. You went all in on being non-employable. Well played. An Ruda (07:06): I went all in. I was going to be an English professor and then I realized that I was not that interested in an eternal vow poverty. So that got nixed. And then I was like, let me work for a couple of years and see what I want to do. So then I went ... So this is a callous. I went to interview at a radio station to be a receptionist. And this is in, oh man, like 1996. Okay? Oh Jared Correia (07:39): Man. An Ruda (07:40): And the dude- What Jared Correia (07:40): A great year. Anyway, go An Ruda (07:42): Ahead. Yeah. And the dude says to me, "Hey, do you know how to use Microsoft products?" And I was like, "Oh sure, of course I do. " He's like, "We have a little test for you. " And I was like, "Oh Jared Correia (07:58): Shit." I don't actually know what Microsoft is. An Ruda (08:03): I was like, "I can type." But I kind of lied. So I'm assuming this interview is over. And he's like, "Yeah, the interview is over." Oh, Jared Correia (08:17): You didn't even take the test. You just admitted you got me. No, what I was going to do. I An Ruda (08:21): Didn't know how to do shit. What was I going to do? Yeah, I Jared Correia (08:25): Fucked up. My bad. An Ruda (08:27): I was going to like ... I don't know. I was going to sit there for an hour and pretend. No, that felt torturous and there's no way I was going to get the job. So I just figured I'd confess then in there. So anyway, so there ended my career in radio. Before Jared Correia (08:43): It even started. An Ruda (08:44): Before it even started. And then I was like, "Shit, what am I going to do with my life, man?" I don't know. I don't want to have good ways to make money. So I applied to law school. I applied to one law school. Jared Correia (08:59): Really? An Ruda (08:59): On a LARC. That's crazy. On a LARP. Jared Correia (09:04): And then you did the LSAT stuff and all that. An Ruda (09:08): Yeah, I did all of that. I didn't study. Jared Correia (09:10): So you did well enough obviously to get into law school. An Ruda (09:13): I mean, I only applied to one law school, so yeah, I got in. Sitting Jared Correia (09:17): There sweating it out like, "Man, I hope there's no Microsoft questions on the LSAT." An Ruda (09:20): I know. No. And I got accepted. They gave me a scholarship. I was like, "All right, I'll do it. " I grew up in a very conservative, Vietnamese Catholic home where I was not allowed to go out by myself after dark. Jared Correia (09:39): Oh, wow. An Ruda (09:40): So in the summers I could stay out longer in the winter. I was like, "All right, it's five o'clock. I got to go home." It's dark. Not allowed to stay out. Jared Correia (09:50): I bet your parents were like, "Oh, doctor or lawyer, right? That's cool. That sounds like a great thing to do. " An Ruda (09:55): No, dude. This is what my mom said at one point. I got my law degree and my sister is actually a Fulbright scholar and she has a PhD in sociology. This is what my mom says. She's like, "You girls have too much education for girls." Jared Correia (10:14): Oh, An Ruda (10:15): Wow. So you should have stopped. Your bachelor's degree because who's going to want to marry you? That was kind of her thesis to all this education that was happening around here. Jared Correia (10:26): She's like, "Once you lost out of the job at the radio station, it's all over." So you did the law school thing, you came out and- An Ruda (10:35): I did. Jared Correia (10:35): You've been successful. And one of the things we talk about is you really have focused on mentorship in your practice. You've had good mentors, you have a really interesting theory about mentors, which you can share with us if you wish, but this is also time, if you want to, to shout out some of the people that worked with you and kind of helped you on the way up. An Ruda (11:01): I got really lucky because I was a first generation law student. I didn't even know that the law school you went to was important to getting a job. I just thought I would just apply. And then I happened to take tests very well, so I got good grades. I was pretty high in my class. So somehow I hit all the right deadlines and I got into big law-ish, big law-ish. I started a firm called Crosby He which then got gobbled up by Reid Smith, had not really signed up to be lawyer 1,100 something. So left with the partner that I worked with and went to a boutique. He was my first mentor. His name was Clyde Hutchinson, old guy. Jared Correia (11:54): Yeah. An Ruda (11:55): He was one of those guys that was old when he was young. Yeah. Jared Correia (11:59): Clyde Hutchinson's such an old guy name. He's like Benjamin Button. An Ruda (12:03): He was old when he was young, and he was one of those guys that smoked outside, voice sounded like gravel. And he would, before he went home, he'd call his wife and say, "Fire up the cocktails, Joan." And then he'd go home, have a drinky poo, have dinner. I Jared Correia (12:25): Thought you said you weren't law firms in the '90s, not the '70s. An Ruda (12:29): It was the same difference. It was old school. And you know what? He was my first good mentor, this old white guy who was ... I think about it now. He was in his 50s, but he felt like he was in his 70s. And I started out working for the railroads and those guys were great. I mean, as soon as I got sworn in, he let me take a depo and he had one of his buddies in the railroad bar, Rasney. So I'm defending a depo and this guy is all on my ass, objections, totally just rude, just combative. And I'm just like, "Jesus, man. All right, whatever." And then this is the day after I was sworn in, okay? Jared Correia (13:22): Oh my God. An Ruda (13:22): Wow. This was a rite of passage. It was Jared Correia (13:25): Like- You did a deposition the day you were sworn in. Oh An Ruda (13:29): My God. The day after. This was his tradition. And he got one of his- That's so funny. ... to haze me. And after the depo was over, he comes over and he's like, "You did pretty good, kid. Clyde told me to haze you and go hard on you. " But that guy let me do everything. I mean, I really, really learned from him because he was a free range mentor where he's like, "Go make your own mistakes. There's nothing you can do that's going to be that bad. You'll learn, not go get humiliated a couple of times and you'll figure it out. " And then I left there and then I have actually been with my current mentor for 20 years, Luzian Fernandez. Yeah. I met her in 2006 and we're going to celebrate our 20th year anniversary this year. Jared Correia (14:32): That's amazing. I've never heard anyone quite put it that way, a mentorship. What are you guys going to do to celebrate? An Ruda (14:40): I don't know. We'll figure out something. I mean, it's just like ... And I think that's what makes it worth it. People are so willing to jump these days to go from one thing to the next. And I had so many opportunities to leave and make more money, but I was not willing to leave the old girl. At one point, the guys at my current firm had recruited me, they recruited me for seven years before I came to Barclay. Oh yeah, it was a long courtship. Jared Correia (15:10): Yeah, that definitely is. Geez. It's like Bridgerton or some shit. An Ruda (15:13): It's totally Bridgerton. And at some point I was considering accepting and that there was financial whatevers and I was going to make more money. And then I was like, "I cannot leave Louisiana." That's cool. So I called the managing partner up at the time. I was like, "I just can't do it. I'm so sorry. I cannot leave her. You're going to have to wait till she retires or dies." I will just stay until that happens. Jared Correia (15:43): It's funny. I like where you're like, "Well, I graduated from law school in 99 or whatever." And then you told me about how you basically worked in an 1870s law practice representing Cornelius Vanderbilt in the railroads. An Ruda (15:57): Those guys taught me a lot though, but you've never met me in person, so you don't know. I'm about four- I know. Jared Correia (16:04): One of these An Ruda (16:04): Days. I have four foot 10. Okay. So when I represented the railroads, they were like, "Oh, you're never really going to know what it's like until you climb into an engine." Okay. So they Jared Correia (16:20): Had me- Is this some Michael Dukakis in the tank moment? An Ruda (16:24): I was so goddamn scared. I climbed up this ladder like a little monkey. Okay. I was like this and I'm weak. So then they had a dude above me and then they had a dude below me. Jared Correia (16:42): You have your whole team getting you into the train? An Ruda (16:47): Into the engine. Jared Correia (16:51): Oh, that's really funny. An Ruda (16:53): I don't know that people get those kinds of experiences because the people that- Not Jared Correia (16:58): Anymore. I don't feel like. Yeah. An Ruda (16:59): They want to jump for 10, 20, 30, 40 grand. And they don't think about investing in themselves. Actually, when I left Reid Smith and I left with Clyde to go to a boutique firm, okay, I took a $40,000. Jared Correia (17:20): Oh, wow. Just so you could continue to work with him. An Ruda (17:24): So I could continue to work with him and learn to be a real lawyer, right? Because I didn't feel like at Big Law I was going to get to be a real lawyer. Jared Correia (17:34): Yeah. Yeah. Probably would've been true. So we talked a little bit about how you try to talk about mentorship with the attorneys you have at the firm right now. An Ruda (17:43): Yeah. Jared Correia (17:44): And you've got this whole theory around how your mentors are like your homies. Would you- An Ruda (17:51): Okay. There's levels. Okay. Jared Correia (17:53): Did I fuck it up? I might've fucked it up too. An Ruda (17:55): No, no. Jared Correia (17:56): It's your theory. An Ruda (17:57): You mostly got it. So one day I was talking to one of the younger partners at the firm and I said, "Who's your special friend?" Jared Correia (18:09): Oh, yes. You're like, Mr. Rogers. An Ruda (18:12): And this guy said his special friend were these two seven-year-olds. And I was like, "That's not a special friend. That's a mentor." You don't understand the differences. So I sent an email out to the firm. Okay. I think I shared it with you. Jared Correia (18:28): Yes, I've seen An Ruda (18:29): It. But what I said in the email is for a lawyer to have happiness and longevity at a law firm or a law practice, one, you need a special friend. Okay? You don't need more than one. If you have more than one, you're blessed. But a special friend is your ride or die. That person you can say anything to. You can whine, you can complain, you can talk some mad shit to, and they have your full trust. Okay? That's your special friend. Don't give that out easily. Not everybody's a special friend. Okay? And then you have your homies. Your homies are like everybody else that you're friendly with. Okay? They're like, whatever. You get along with them, you can call them, you can talk to them, whatever. And then you have your mentors and your mentor is a special relationship. That is the person that's going to help you grow and develop and look out for you. (19:37): And that has to be organic. You cannot assign a mentor. I hate it when mentors are assigned because you don't know- That's Jared Correia (19:46): A good point. Yeah. Yeah. An Ruda (19:48): You don't know if there's chemistry. There has to be chemistry. And so after I sent out that email, what I thought was funny was everybody started thinking, "Who's my special friend? Who's my mentor?" Jared Correia (20:05): Typical law firm stuff, right? An Ruda (20:08): And people have amazingly ... I've had a couple of conversations then where somebody says to me, "Would you think this person's worthy of being my special friend?" I'm like, "The fuck if I know, I can't tell you if that person is worthy of being your special friend." You just got to feel it. You just got to feel it. It's not like, "Oh, well, what will this person give me? What can I get? " That's not what a special friend's about. This Jared Correia (20:37): Is great. An Ruda (20:39): But other people- Jared Correia (20:40): This is another Wednesday at the firm, right? Who's my special friend and who's my homie? How do I know? An Ruda (20:47): It's kind of like you know it if you know it. If you don't have any special friends, you better go and get you one. Jared Correia (20:55): Yeah. An Ruda (20:55): Okay. You better go and get you one or it's a lonely practice. Jared Correia (20:59): Right. All right. Let me ask you this. Obviously you got a unique culture at your firm. You the managing partner over there. How do you balance this type of stuff, like making sure everybody's friendly with each other and collegial and helping each other with productivity? Because that's a hard thing, frankly. An Ruda (21:19): I feel like it's a constantly shifting subject because- Jared Correia (21:26): Yes, it's definitely a moving target. An Ruda (21:28): I think really the way it works best is if people are on a team and there's a common enemy.That's a good way to look at it. If you think about it, when you're playing on a sports team, they don't have to be an enemy in a bad way, but you've got a foe that you're trying to defeat, right? Jared Correia (21:53): Yeah. It's a competitor, for sure. An Ruda (21:56): This is what law practice is. Each of the cases are different games, what I mean? Different sports games, and you have to assemble the right team. And hopefully team members work well together and encourage each other to be better. Jared Correia (22:14): And even in an environment like that though, you're also encouraging productivity and you're measuring it too, which I think is relatively unique. A lot of law firms don't do that effectively. An Ruda (22:23): I measure productivity, but I'm constantly refining it too. I started out measuring productivity as a function of someone needs to make three times their ... Needs to generate in revenue three times their base. That's just normal consulting principles, right? Jared Correia (22:43): Right. Yeah. An Ruda (22:45): Benefits are so expensive. If you are insuring a family of four and average family of four, you as the employer are probably paying an extra three to $4,000 a month for medical insurance. Jared Correia (23:04): Oh yeah, An Ruda (23:05): Definitely. And then at our firm, we do an automatic 3% contribution to everybody's 401k. We don't do a match. And so once you add everything together, like when you're measuring productivity or what someone needs to be generating, it really needs to be 3x their total compensation package. Jared Correia (23:31): Most people look at just a salary and not the total package. So it's great that you do that. An Ruda (23:35): Yeah. What we did at the end of last year is we generated total compensation statements to everybody and we told them, "Okay, here's your base, here's how much you got in bonus, here's what your benefits cost." Just so that people have visibility and transparency to what it costs to run the firm. Yeah, Jared Correia (23:56): That's smart. I An Ruda (23:57): Do not hide that from people. I tell people, this is how much it costs for me to keep the lights on every month. Okay. So it's just because I think it's too easy for people to just think of themselves as, "Oh, I'm just like, well, I don't care. It's not my problem how revenue comes in. Jared Correia (24:17): " Oh, absolutely. Very easy to think of that if you get a salary, for sure. An Ruda (24:23): Exactly. So I'm trying to create a culture where it's everybody's problem. Jared Correia (24:30): I feel like it's hard for all the lawyers to be like, "I'm going to be transparent about finances in any way." Was that a struggle for you or are you just like, "This seems to be the right thing to do, so I'm going to do it. An Ruda (24:41): " It felt like the right thing to do, but it's been a lot of trial and error because one thing that I've had to be better at educating people on is, okay, just because you're doing more than 3X doesn't mean that I'm going to compensate you up to that because you're also making up for some of your homies that aren't doing that. Jared Correia (25:03): Right. That's why we're all homies. We're all pulling for each other. An Ruda (25:07): Exactly. And so I don't know. I've thought about a team dashboard as well. Jared Correia (25:13): Oh, that's awesome. I love that. An Ruda (25:15): So you have your individual number, but you have the company number as well so that you can kind of know. Although I have to balance it because I don't want to scare people. Jared Correia (25:25): It's true. An Ruda (25:25): You know what I mean? Jared Correia (25:26): Although the state of KPI management and law firms is like, there's a lot of work to be done there. Somebody out there, if you're listening, build a good KPI dashboard for law firms and I will help you promote it. An Ruda (25:41): I feel like I've been refining the one that I've been working on for three years now. And when I first rolled it out, I think people were resentful because people don't want to know their Jared Correia (25:55): Number.That's always said. Also, everyone would like to coast if they could. Yeah. Really? An Ruda (26:04): Yeah. Jared Correia (26:05): I think it's great. Okay. Would you like to touch the third rail with me? An Ruda (26:09): Sure. Tell me what you want to touch. I'll touch it. I don't care. Jared Correia (26:13): Let's talk about DEI. An Ruda (26:15): I'll do this and touch the electrical rail. Oh, Jared Correia (26:19): You don't have to do that. An Ruda (26:21): Okay. We'll get electrocuted together. I'm good with Jared Correia (26:24): That. So DEI has been shifting stands for years now. 2020 pandemic, everything was like, we're woke, we're doing all the shit. Now Trump is back in office. Unless you're a white rich dude, he doesn't give a fuck about you. I feel like it's ping pong. What is going on right now in law firms and what should be going on? An Ruda (26:53): Well, I mean, I have different pressures than big law, right? Yeah. But I was at Big Law for a hot second. And I kind of feel like when you're at Big Law, people are working their asses off. I look at the billable hours requirements because there's a publish and then there's unpublished, right? Jared Correia (27:17): That's fucking nuts. Yeah. An Ruda (27:19): Yeah. So if you're sitting there and you're billing 23, 2,400 hours on the regular just to be part of the homies, okay? At my firm, you built 1,800. It's a true 1,800. So I always say to people, "That's 500 hours less of your life." Think about it. Think about it. And different people want different things, but when I think about what can you offer when you're at big law to these young people who went to law school, most of whom went to do good. Jared Correia (27:58): Right. Every lawyer I've ever talked to is like, "Why'd you become a lawyer? Because want to help people. " Literally everyone says that. An Ruda (28:05): Yeah, except me. I needed a job. Jared Correia (28:07): Except for you. I blame the radio station that's why you're here. An Ruda (28:14): Yeah. But if you want to help people, how can they offer something to you? So there's pro bono programs, there's DEI initiatives and shit like that. Yes. Jared Correia (28:25): Right. An Ruda (28:26): That is performative. Okay. And I'm not mad at you. You got to put some shit on your website. Jared Correia (28:38): Right. We need the God debt. An Ruda (28:40): Yeah. You need the content. You got to put some brown faces on your webpage. That's cool. But you're not really ... I mean, my concern about those programs and who they anoint to lead the programs is it's performative. It's like- So you think Jared Correia (29:01): There's like a token Black lawyer or a token Vietnamese lawyer at the firm? Just have An Ruda (29:06): One. Well, they usually don't have a old white guy heading those DEI initiatives. Jared, why don't you pull it up and see how many ... I'll give you a hundred dollars for every old white guy that's the head of a DEI initiative for big law, okay? Jared Correia (29:19): Yeah. I don't think I'll be making much money from that. Okay. An Ruda (29:24): Why don't you give me a thousand dollars if you can't find any, and I'll give you a hundred bucks for each one you can find. All right, good deal. I'm going to go spend that money right now because I'm going to win. Okay. Jared Correia (29:37): I mean, yeah. Go ahead. Go An Ruda (29:39): Ahead. Here's the thing. You could call it whatever you want. It doesn't matter. I don't have DEI on my website. It's intentional. Okay. I don't have that, but the number of women, the number of whatever non-dominant culture people All I have working in my firm is very vast. Okay? Jared Correia (30:04): Yeah. An Ruda (30:05): And part of that is law of attraction because I literally give no fucks what color someone is, what gender they are. Just call yourself whatever you want. I don't care. My clients don't care. Yeah. First of all, don't use it as an excuse like, oh, whatever. Boo fucking who? That was me too. What I tell people is, listen, they're going to think you're not as good. That's just the fucking bottom line. Okay. Don't be mad about it. What you going to be mad about? Just be better. You know that's what you have to be. So don't be mad about it because all the time you spend being mad about how unfair life is, you're here. Nobody promised you fairness. All you were promised was an opportunity. Jared Correia (31:06): Yeah. Right. So you don't have a formal program. You don't think you need a formal program, but it sounds like in just the course of actions that you take and how you talk about the firm and promote the firm, that you attract the kind of candidates you want. And then once you get them in, you don't care what background they have, what race they are, whatever. An Ruda (31:32): I spend more time on an individual basis telling women not to go 80%. The only people who ever come to me and ask to go 80% are the women. The men never do that. Jared Correia (31:45): Interesting. So I've never heard that before. Why do you think that is? An Ruda (31:51): Because they feel the pressure of the billable hour and they're very responsible. And I'm like, "Don't do it. Or if you want to do it, do it at the end of the year." I've talked them out of it just because no dude ever rolls up to me and says, "Oh, I know my billing sucks ass. So can I take a 20% pay cut?" Never happened. Jared Correia (32:16): Ever. An Ruda (32:17): Okay. Jared Correia (32:18): Yeah. An Ruda (32:18): So I don't know. You tell me why that's the case. I don't know. That's just my opinion. I know, Jared Correia (32:23): Man. I feel like every mediocre white dude is like, "I'm taking all my shit right now, getting everything I can. " But that's kind of always been the way it is, honestly. An Ruda (32:33): Because they have a sense of confidence. Okay? Yeah. And I want to give the young women and the men of color the same confidence, the same swagger. And to be able to say, "No, I'm just going to perform." I worked when I had a baby. It just sucks. You just change your schedule around. So it's like, you can do it. So they're the only ones who ever asked me to do that. And I'm very intentional where I'll say, "Well, you wrote the motion. You should argue it. Jared Correia (33:16): " An Ruda (33:17): Why are you signing my name? I didn't write this thing. You sign it. Jared Correia (33:23): So you're kind of preaching like take ownership, have some swag and just do your thing. An Ruda (33:29): Yeah. Jared Correia (33:30): Because An Ruda (33:31): In most law firms, it's like the partner signs the plea. No, you wrote it, you sign it. You wrote it, you argue it or you co-argue it. Jared Correia (33:42): And you feel like because you're at a midsize firm, you have more wherewithal to be able to do something like that. I mean, I think you would probably do the same thing at a big law firm, but I'm just saying you may feel like you have more flexibility. An Ruda (33:56): I think I feel like I have more flexibility because we're about 70 lawyers. I have more of an opportunity to really get to know people and I encourage them to come talk to me. And so I don't know how you would do it in big law. I guess you could do it by departments or practice groups. But the whole point is if you want to do some performative shit for your website, that's fine, but you still have to invest in the people. And part of investing in the people is giving them the opportunity to fail and being okay with it. Maybe the first time the young lady argues the motion that she wrote, she won't be great. Okay. She'll be better the next time. So I'll give you an example. I had a summer law clerk do a binding arbitration, labor arbitration for one of my clients, which was a nonprofit. Jared Correia (35:03): Huge deal though for a summer law clerk, right? An Ruda (35:06): A summer law clerk, a second Jared Correia (35:08): Year An Ruda (35:09): Summer law clerk, right? It was a one day arbitration. And I talked to the client in advance and I said, "Hey, we're going to supervise him. We're going to make sure he's trained. We'll be in the background, but are you okay with this? " And then I said, "You know what? I'm not going to charge you for his time." So free is always better. Jared Correia (35:32): It is. Free is always better. I want to dump one more topic in here before we finish up this segment. Artificial intelligence, I can't go through a podcast now without talking about AI. You're a very people focused, culture focused manager. What do you think about throwing AI into the mix? An Ruda (35:57): I love AI. I want as much AI as possible. Here's what I tell the employees when they're concerned. Jared Correia (36:11): Right. Because when you say that, I think people are probably thinking a little bit like, "Okay, what about my An Ruda (36:17): Job?" Here's the thing, human beings are the premium product, I think. I was talking to one of my friends who's a CEO and we were joking that having a human being EA is a new flex, right? Because people have calendary or whatever, but actually having a human being EA Jared Correia (36:39): Reflex. You're like, "I don't have an automatic scheduling tool. I have a human." An Ruda (36:44): I have a human. Who's Jared Correia (36:45): Going to help you schedule? An Ruda (36:46): And having an onshore human being- Oh, Jared Correia (36:49): That's an even bigger flex. An Ruda (36:51): It's the megaflex. Okay? Because it's like AI assistant, offshore assistant, human being assistant that sits outside your door. That's the ultimate flux right now. Tell you. Jared Correia (37:04): That's funny. An Ruda (37:07): And so what I say is human beings are the premium product, right? Yeah. So what can you do as a human being that AI cannot do? Okay. And I listen on my doom scrolling to when Jensen Wang talks about this or Jamie Diamond talks about it or whatever. Jared Correia (37:25): And one An Ruda (37:26): Thing that Jenna- You do Jared Correia (37:27): A lot of dumb scrolling on AI. An Ruda (37:29): Yeah. And one thing that Jensen Wang said that I thought was very interesting is the nature of what it means to be smart has changed. Pure academic intelligence, pure analytical ability, computational ability is a commodity. So what is not a commodity? I'm going to steal this from him because I really liked it. Well, you Jared Correia (37:52): Attributed this, so you're good. An Ruda (37:55): And I believe the same thing. It's a premium product. It's the human being's ability to form connections with other human beings to see around corners, to use judgment, and to provide a concierge experience. So if you're a human being, your ass better be the Ritz-Carlton. Okay? Because if you're Motel six, it's going to be a robot checking it. Okay. Jared Correia (38:27): Oh, that's great. An Ruda (38:28): People will pay for the human premium. Jared Correia (38:31): Yes. I think. I think that's a great point. Okay. Last question for you is like- An Ruda (38:37): Sure. Jared Correia (38:39): When you're thinking about how to introduce AI into your firm, what does that look like? Where does that start? Is that in association with individuals? Are you looking to have AI run certain tasks? What are you thinking about right now? I know it's a work in progress. An Ruda (38:56): Well, we're implementing two, right? One is, and I'm not plugging this, but Nancy, you better give me a discount, is Billables AI. We've- Jared Correia (39:06): She was one of our recent guests, so plug away. An Ruda (39:11): We rolled that out. And honestly, I wanted to roll it out housewide because I believe to get good data- Jared Correia (39:19): Which you did, right? You just put it out there. Yeah. An Ruda (39:23): I did, but I had to hold it back a little bit because there's some privacy issues. Oh, sure. Yeah. So we rolled that out. I'm going to check in to see how that's doing. And the other AI tool we're going to roll out is a tool called ConnectAI, which will be our HR assistant. We still have a human being assistant. We still have a human being HR person, and we have a human being, senior HR consultant. But for the mundane questions, this AI agent will be able to answer the employees day or night. Jared Correia (40:01): Yeah, that's a great use case. Awesome. An Ruda (40:04): And I'm looking up more. Jared Correia (40:06): Yeah. An Ruda (40:06): I'm looking at Jared Correia (40:08): More.What An Ruda (40:08): Are the efficiency tools that I can roll out? The more, the better. Jared Correia (40:14): Absolutely. Yeah. And a pleasure as always. Will you hang around for one more fun segment before we let you An Ruda (40:21): Go? Of course. Me and Bob. Me and Bob are here for you. Jared Correia (40:24): We haven't mentioned Bob, but yes, there's a human head behind you. An Ruda (40:28): Yes. Bob is my punching bag. He's dressed. He's in a t-shirt. Jared Correia (40:35): I mean, he looks pretty good for somebody who gets knocked around. So good on you, Bob. An Ruda (40:41): Yeah, he's tough. Jared Correia (40:43): We'll be right back. Welcome back, everybody. That's right. It's a counter program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where you can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at a greater depth with my guests. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. And I drew up something just for you. I think you're going to be into An Ruda (41:08): This. Oh, I'm excited. Jared Correia (41:11): I put together a little game called JD or OG. It's very simple to play. Okay. I am going to read a statement and you just have to tell me if it was uttered by a lawyer or a rapper. An Ruda (41:26): Okay. Jared Correia (41:28): I know you're into the culture. So I believe you've rapped for clients before. Is that correct? Yes. An Ruda (41:37): That's how I got a client. All right. Jared Correia (41:38): Before we get into it, do you want to tell that story? Because I think that's great. An Ruda (41:42): It was so funny. I got a referral and one of my friends says, "Hey, he's so tired of his lawyers. He needs a gangster." So I told him to go talk to you. So I put on a fur vest and I think it was, I don't know if it was ludicrous, like, "Bitch, get out of the way," or something like that. And I did a whole performance and I texted- Jared Correia (42:11): I can vote for this. An Ruda (42:11): I texted it to him. You saw it. I texted him. I've seen the video. I texted him and he's like, "No questions asked you're Jared Correia (42:22): Hired." That's amazing. All right. If you're ready, I'll start. I'm going to start out slow. This will be easy. First couple will be easy, I think. Okay. If it doesn't fit, you must have quit, rapper or a lawyer. An Ruda (42:37): That's easy. I know that was a lawyer. Jared Correia (42:40): Maybe I think that might be the most famous statement ever uttered by an attorney. An Ruda (42:46): Yeah. But he's got him a gangster though. Jared Correia (42:48): Johnny Cochran. Yeah, definitely. An Ruda (42:50): Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. He's like part lawyer, part gangster. Jared Correia (42:54): Yeah, absolutely. All right, next. I've got this one. My glove compartment is locked, so is the trunk in the back. And I know my rights, so you're going to need a warrant for that. Rapper, lawyer? An Ruda (43:10): That's going to be right. I know Jared Correia (43:11): I didn't do a justice, but. An Ruda (43:13): That's a wrapper. Jared Correia (43:15): Jay-Z. I got 99 problems. Great. Great song. All right, you're two for two. Can I just tell you, I know you're an attorney and you're competitive. I don't think I've ever had anyone get 100% right on our little segment at the end An Ruda (43:32): Of the show. Now I got to try hard. Jared Correia (43:34): No, no pressure. No An Ruda (43:35): Pressure. Oh man, like you tell me that. Jared Correia (43:38): Just to fuck with An Ruda (43:38): You. Messed up. Jared Correia (43:39): Okay. An Ruda (43:39): Messed up. You know my brain's competitive. I would run a foot race that I can't run, that I can't win for a dollar. Jared Correia (43:52): That's great. All right. Here's another one for you. I'd rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. I'd rather have a mind open to by wonder than one closed by belief. Is that a lawyer or a rapper? An Ruda (44:12): That is so lame. That's a lawyer. Am I wrong? Jared Correia (44:18): No, you're right. You're right. Jerry Spence. Famous trial lawyer. Well, I think Jerry Spence just died recently. I was like 100 years old. An Ruda (44:29): No offense to Jerry Jerry. A lawyer would talk about wonder. Jared Correia (44:34): That's An Ruda (44:34): True. There's no threats of violence. Nothing like that. Jared Correia (44:39): Speaking of threats of violence, try this one on for size. I'm a short fused son of a bitch and I'm going to get you. I'm a shortfuse son of a bitch. I'm going to guess you. Lawyer, rapper. What do you think? An Ruda (44:53): I like that. I feel like that's a lawyer. Jared Correia (44:56): It is. Oh my God. That is a lawyer named Joe Jamal, who was a famous attorney. 1920 to 2000. I think he was alive. All right. You're four for four. No pressure. But the pressure bills is kind of like that An Ruda (45:13): Anymore. Jared Correia (45:14): No, they don't. You could get a little sign. Put that on your desk. Like Harry Truman had like the buck stops here. An Ruda (45:20): I like that. That's a good sign. It feels like a t-shirt. Jared Correia (45:24): Yeah. All right. Well, now I'm going to have to send along some t-shirts that I don't put my name on. So watch out for that in the mail. All right. Next one. The truth is undisputed until the evidence is tampered with and the jury is polluted. The truth is undisputed until the evidence is tampered with and the jury is polluted. Rapper or lawyer. An Ruda (45:48): See, the easy answer is lawyer, so it's got to be rapper. Jared Correia (45:52): Oh, this is why I like having lawyers on this because you really think about the answer before you say it. It is a rapper. It's push a tea from the song, the games we play. All right, so I will tell you, you have three left. You go three for three. You're in the hall of fame. An Ruda (46:10): Wedding. You're Jared Correia (46:10): In the hall An Ruda (46:11): Fame. Sweating. All righ I'm going to miss it. Jared Correia (46:12): Just flip back at Bob, get some encouragement. An Ruda (46:15): Okay, Bob. Bob, if I don't get this all right, Bob, I'm going to beat the shit out of you. Jared Correia (46:23): All right. Here's another one. I don't want to know the law. I want to know the judge. Lawyer or rapper. That's a lawyer. I want to know the law. I want to know. An Ruda (46:35): It is. Jared Correia (46:35): It is a lawyer. An Ruda (46:36): Lawyers are always so fucking arrogant. They always think, "Oh, I know the judge. He's got to do something for me. " Okay. Jared Correia (46:44): William Fallon, attorney known as the great mouthpiece. All right, two more. Two more. Got to keep the perfect street going here. Here's the next quote. Premature certainty is the enemy of truth. Premature certainty is the enemy of truth, lawyer or rapper. An Ruda (47:08): I'm a go rapper. Oh, you're right. Because Jared Correia (47:17): Lawyers are always nipsy hustle. An Ruda (47:20): Because lawyers are always prematurely certain. That Jared Correia (47:25): Is a good point. I was trying to trick you on that one. I feel like that was a tough one. An Ruda (47:30): That was a hard one. Jared Correia (47:31): Now I'm sweating because my reputation is in serious trouble here because you have the chance to go 100% here. The last- An Ruda (47:42): Okay, Bob. Okay, Bob, help me out. Jared Correia (47:45): The last question. The more you say, the more vulnerable you are. Control the information and you control the situation. The more you say, the more vulnerable you are, control the information and you control the situation. Rapper or lawyer. An Ruda (48:05): That's a lawyer statement. Jared Correia (48:09): My track record is intact. Damn it. But that was the closest anybody's ever come. Now I was sweating. That was Mr. 50. 50 cents. An Ruda (48:25): Oh, I love Fitty too. I love Fiddy. Jared Correia (48:31): That was great. Did you prepare for this in advance? I'm impressed. An Ruda (48:37): No. No, I didn't prepare for it. I just- Jared Correia (48:38): Well played. Well, I will say that. I will say that you were the true OG of the legal industry, so thank you for coming on. I appreciate it. An Ruda (48:49): Thank you. Jared Correia (48:51): All right. We'll have you back some time. Take it easy. An Ruda (48:54): Okay. Thanks, Jared. See you soon. Jared Correia (48:56): Thanks to our guest, An Ruda, the CEO and co-managing partner at Bartko Pavia LLP. To learn more about An and Bartko, visit Bartkopavia.com. That's B-A-R-T like Simpson, Bart Simpson. K-O like knockout. P-A-V-I-A.com. Bartkopavia.com. Check him out. Now, because I'll always be a 90s kid who sadly never learned to rollerblade, but his true passion is burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I'm now just doing the Martin version of that, which is craving Spotify playlist for every podcast episode that I record, where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. For this week's playlist, we've got rappers dropping lyrics about legal issues. It's Jurist at the mic and is sponsored by Death Row Records. No, it's not. And I probably shouldn't even say that. I mean, I don't want Suge Knight hanging me off a building like he did with Rob Van Winkle. Join us next time when I spit even more fire.