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376: The Problems with Punishment, with Bryan Post · Beautifully Complex

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Punishment does not teach a lesson. It shuts down the
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: very part of the brain that your child needs in
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: order to learn one. Today, I'm talking with Brian Post,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: a child behavior expert who spent nearly three decades working
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: with families about why punishment and discipline are not the
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: same thing and what actually happens in a child's brain
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: and your own brain when stress takes over. We get
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: into the neuroscience of reactivity. why a stressed out adult
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: cannot calm a stressed out child, and a simple breathing
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: practice that can change everything. I'm Penny Williams, and this
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: is Beautifully Complex. Welcome back, everyone. I am insanely excited
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: to have Brian Post with me for a conversation around
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: punishment and sort of the challenges, the problems with that
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: approach to changing behavior. I've been following Brian for a
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: long time on Instagram. Every time I watch a video
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  Speaker 1: or a talk, I'm just nodding my head in agreement
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  Speaker 1: the whole time, like.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
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  Speaker 1: So I'm just thrilled that we're going to have this
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  Speaker 1: conversation together for everyone listening. But will you start by
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: letting everybody know who you are and what you do?
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  Speaker 2: Sure. Well, Penny, thanks for having me. Looking forward to
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  Speaker 2: sharing this time with you. My name is Brian Post.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: I'm a child behavior expert is kind of how I'm labeled.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: I work with all types of families, all types of children,
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: but have primarily specialized in foster care and adoption over
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: the last 28 years. So my real interest lies in
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: how stress and trauma impact human relationships and how that
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: shows up in families. and trying to help families unravel
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: those dynamics so that they can have more peaceful, more
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  Speaker 2: loving relationships. Awesome.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: I love that you brought up relationships. I'm sure we'll
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  Speaker 1: get into more of that relational aspect as we have
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: this conversation. But I think the best place to start
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: would just be defining what punishment is. When we talk
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: about punishment, what do we mean? And maybe How is
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  Speaker 1: that different from discipline? Because I think we tend to
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  Speaker 1: lump them together.
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  Speaker 2: That's perfect. It also ties directly into relationship. Yeah. So
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  Speaker 2: punishment is the use of force or coercion to impose
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  Speaker 2: one person's will over another. And it's pretty straightforward. So
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  Speaker 2: I typically look at punishment as any behavior approach towards
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: a child or another individual. That is punitive and judgmental
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  Speaker 2: in nature. And the difference and the contrast that with discipline.
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  Speaker 2: The definition of discipline is to teach, not to punish.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: And we typically discipline our children under the auspices of punishment.
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  Speaker 2: But discipline and punishment are not the same thing. So,
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  Speaker 2: and I'll go as far into this as you want
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  Speaker 2: to go, Penny, and feel free to interrupt me. Sure.
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  Speaker 2: But one of my probably... best scientific citations comes from
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  Speaker 2: Joseph Ladeau. He wrote a book called The Emotional Brain.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: He's a neuroscientist at NYU. And in the book, he
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  Speaker 2: cites that in times of stress, our thinking becomes confused
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  Speaker 2: and distorted and our short-term memory is suppressed. So when
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  Speaker 2: we are stressed, we are not thinking clearly and we
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: cannot remember. Now, if you take that, if you take
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: that and you measure that against punishment and against discipline,
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  Speaker 2: you have the capacity to come to a completely different understanding.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: Punishment creates stress. Punishment creates overwhelm. Punishment creates shame. And
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  Speaker 2: if punishment creates stress and overwhelm and shame, then what
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  Speaker 2: it's doing is it's stressing the brain And when the
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  Speaker 2: brain's stressed, we cannot think clearly and we cannot remember.
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  Speaker 2: And if you can't think clearly and if you cannot remember,
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  Speaker 2: you cannot learn. So in essence, punishment actually impairs the
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  Speaker 2: brain of the individual to be able to learn the
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: lesson for which they are being punished. Now, the other
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  Speaker 2: really important part of punishment is the person who's doing
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  Speaker 2: the punishing. Why do we punish? We punish because our
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  Speaker 2: amygdala is our fear receptor in our brain. Your amygdala
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: does not think. Your amygdala does not respond. Your amygdala
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  Speaker 2: is all emotional and all it does is react and
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  Speaker 2: it releases cortisol. When the amygdala senses a threat, it
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  Speaker 2: has three major drives. It wants to control, it wants
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  Speaker 2: to suppress, or it wants to change the behavior. So
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  Speaker 2: when a child is misbehaving, the amygdala of the individual,
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  Speaker 2: usually the parent or the adult, the parent or the teacher,
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  Speaker 2: becomes stressed because they see a threat. The behavior is
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  Speaker 2: a threat. So then they want to control it, they
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  Speaker 2: want to suppress it, or they want to change it.
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  Speaker 2: So we use punishment as a direct reaction to to
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  Speaker 2: something we perceive to be as a threat, which in
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  Speaker 2: essence has nothing to do with teaching a lesson and
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  Speaker 2: everything to do with controlling, suppressing or changing. Now, the
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  Speaker 2: reason we see the behavior as the threat is because
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  Speaker 2: we feel threatened. We feel afraid, we feel overwhelmed, we
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  Speaker 2: feel scared. So we wanna control, suppress and change. But
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  Speaker 2: we have been misled for generations to believe that punishment
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  Speaker 2: is actually teaching a lesson when in fact it is
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  Speaker 2: actually arresting the very mechanisms of the brain that you
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  Speaker 2: need in order to learn the lesson. You contrast that
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  Speaker 2: with discipline. The definition of discipline is to teach, not
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  Speaker 2: to punish. So if you want to discipline a child,
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  Speaker 2: then ultimately you are having to take responsibility to teach them.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: But because we've been misled to believe that discipline and
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  Speaker 2: punishment are the same, what we're calling discipline isn't discipline
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  Speaker 2: at all. It's punishment. It's no different than the difference
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  Speaker 2: between love and fear. What we're calling love in our
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  Speaker 2: society from years and years and years of generations of
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  Speaker 2: negative conditioning and negative beliefs about what love actually is,
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  Speaker 2: It's not love. It's fear. We've grown up experiencing fear
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  Speaker 2: disguised as love. So what we're calling love is not
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  Speaker 2: love at all. It's actually stress and fear inducing. And
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  Speaker 2: it comes from a place of stress and fear. So
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  Speaker 2: if you want to discipline a child, you have to
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  Speaker 2: take responsibility to teach them, which means first and foremost,
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  Speaker 2: as the teacher, you have to calm yourself down enough
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  Speaker 2: to to be able to think clearly and to remember
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  Speaker 2: so that then you can teach your child. First of all,
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  Speaker 2: you can be aware of whether they're too stressed to learn,
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  Speaker 2: because if they're too stressed to learn, that's why I
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: say connection over correction. You have to connect first because
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  Speaker 2: the connection allows the process of regulation. The process of
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  Speaker 2: regulation allows for the brain to be more coherent, to
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  Speaker 2: be able to think clearly, and for the memory system
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  Speaker 2: to be able to be turned on to remember. Now
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  Speaker 2: the child can learn. A stressed out adult cannot calm
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  Speaker 2: a stressed out child. It is neurophysiologically impossible. The only
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  Speaker 2: way an adult can calm a child is if the
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  Speaker 2: adult is calm first themselves. And with that, I'll step
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  Speaker 2: away from the podium for a moment.
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  Speaker 1: I wish I had sound effects. I just wanted to
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  Speaker 1: like clap and have so much applause. I'm with you 100%.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: This is the thing.
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  Speaker 1: This is like my biggest confusion is that we are
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  Speaker 1: pressuring kids to comply, basically.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: We are sending them into dysregulation. Like the point is
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  Speaker 1: to motivate and have them do things. But what it's
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  Speaker 1: actually doing is shutting down the access to the thinking
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  Speaker 1: brain that you were just talking about. And so here
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  Speaker 1: we are, generation after generation after generation, using pressure, using punishment,
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  Speaker 1: using all of these things that the science is showing
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  Speaker 1: us are actually creating the opposite effect of what we want.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly.
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  Speaker 1: And yet we continue.
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  Speaker 2: And the reason we continue is because we get stressed.
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  Speaker 2: And when we get stressed, we're not thinking clearly and
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  Speaker 2: we cannot remember.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're being reactive.
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  Speaker 2: So we just do the same thing and expect a
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  Speaker 2: different result. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So let's talk about that then. How do we change?
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  Speaker 1: How do we shift?
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  Speaker 2: It's simple. It's not easy. Yes. And let me tell
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  Speaker 2: you how simple it is. It is as simple as
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  Speaker 2: being willing to stop and take three to ten deep breaths.
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  Speaker 2: It is that simple. It is that profound. The willingness
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: to stop and take three to ten deep breaths starts
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  Speaker 2: to shift everything in your physiology and in your brain. However,
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  Speaker 2: when you experience stress, your brain goes into survival. So
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  Speaker 2: the first thing your brain does when you become stressed
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  Speaker 2: is you start holding your breath and start taking ineffective, short,
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  Speaker 2: ineffective breaths, thereby arresting yourself in the ability to think
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  Speaker 2: clearly and to remember. So the challenge and what makes
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  Speaker 2: it so difficult is when you are stressed and you
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  Speaker 2: are seeing a threat, when there's a behavior, you're stressing,
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  Speaker 2: your thinking's confused and distorted, your short-term memory's shut off,
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  Speaker 2: your cellular system is going into survival. Everything in your
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  Speaker 2: amygdala is saying, I'm going to die. I'm going to die.
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  Speaker 2: The idea in the very, the very thought, the action
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  Speaker 2: to stop and breathe is so contrary and so foreign
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  Speaker 2: to what all of our cellular conditioning is doing. And
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  Speaker 2: so it's, it's like the, the most challenging thing in
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  Speaker 2: any given situation. is to stop and breathe. Because if
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  Speaker 2: you do not stop and breathe, you cannot think clearly
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  Speaker 2: and your short-term memory will not turn on and you
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  Speaker 2: will literally feel like you're going to die. And if
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  Speaker 2: you're in that state and your child's in that state,
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  Speaker 2: you have two people who are completely freaking out. And
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  Speaker 2: so you have to stop and breathe. I don't want
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  Speaker 2: to tell parents what to do. I want to tell
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  Speaker 2: parents how to be. Because I know if I can
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  Speaker 2: help you be different, you will do different. And I
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  Speaker 2: believe that there's just a small, small, small space that
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  Speaker 2: we can step into that can completely change 90% of
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  Speaker 2: the challenges that parents have with their children. If I
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  Speaker 2: can get a parent to slow down, take a deep breath, soften,
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  Speaker 2: I can help them see something completely different than what
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  Speaker 2: they've been thinking. And in fact, I call it breathe,
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  Speaker 2: slow down, soften. Because the breathing and the slowing down
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  Speaker 2: are tied together. But you have to breathe. You have
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  Speaker 2: to slow down. And when I say slow down, I
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: don't mean you're not going to get things done. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: your thinking is going to be more open and more
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  Speaker 2: clear while you're doing it. And then the soften is
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  Speaker 2: to get out of the confused, distorted state in your
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  Speaker 2: brain and drop into your heart. When you drop into
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: your heart, all of a sudden you realize that number one,
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  Speaker 2: you're not going to die. No one's going to die.
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  Speaker 2: So you soften and then you look at your child
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  Speaker 2: and then from that place of clarity, that place of
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  Speaker 2: connection to who they are and to their story, you're
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  Speaker 2: able to see that they're not even their chronological age
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: in the moment. They're their emotional age because an acting
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: out child is a stressed out child is a regressed child.
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  Speaker 2: So they're not at their chronological age. They've regressed. You've
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: got to see that regressed emotional age and then respond
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: to that person.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: If your kid takes a stimulant, you know the dreaded hour.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: That moment in the afternoon where their medication wears off
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: and you're back on the struggle bus. School seems to
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: get the best hours ever. while you get the hardest
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: ones at home.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: Their stimulant is.
• 13:36
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• 13:40
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• 13:44
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• 13:48
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• 13:52
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• 13:56
  Speaker 1: levels and alleviating oxidative stress. Just a single supplement in
• 14:01
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• 14:05
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• 14:10
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• 14:14
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• 14:18
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• 14:22
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• 14:32
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• 14:41
  Speaker 1: It expires February 28th, 2027. We talk a lot in
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: the neurodivergent space about the developmental age. Where are their
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: skills in this moment right now? Where can the expectation
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: be doable? And when are we raising the expectation too high?
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: And so we're looking at not their calendar age, but
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: meeting them where they are, right? And understanding that they
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: may be in a different place in the first place.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: Who doesn't want to be met there? Yeah. When we're
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: really struggling, who doesn't want to be met with understanding?
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: Who doesn't want to be met with patience? Who doesn't
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: want to be met with some kind of firm kindness
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: or advocacy or support or encouragement? Who doesn't want it?
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: We do all these things as adults and yet expect
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: our children to do something completely different. We don't give
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: our children the opportunity to express their feelings. But when
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: we're adults, we freaking want to express our feelings. And
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: not only do we want to express our feelings, but
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: we expect that other person to listen to us. But
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: kids don't get given the same grace. They don't get
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: provided the same opportunity. But that's where all healing lies.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: That's why relationship is so important. Relationship is the single
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: most important thing that exists. Every cell, every dendrite, every
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: synapse is organized for relationship. Nothing matters except for relationship.
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  Speaker 2: We've been conditioned to believe that behaviors matter. Behaviors do
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  Speaker 2: not matter. They do not matter. A behavior is nothing
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  Speaker 2: more than a manifestation of stress and fear and trauma
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  Speaker 2: and hurt and unexpressed grief. That's all behavior is. So
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  Speaker 2: in reality, what we should be doing is encouraging the behavior.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: We should be wanting the behavior. We should be accepting
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: the behavior. We should be thanking our children for giving
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  Speaker 2: us their behaviors because that's their attempt to try to
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  Speaker 2: express the feelings that are preventing them from healing. Because
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: you cannot heal something you cannot feel.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: And it feels so much better.
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  Speaker 1: If we think about the two differences, the two different
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: ways we can respond, one just feels a whole lot better.
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  Speaker 1: But also that one that feels better is what we
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: would expect people to do for us. And we don't
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: give the same space and grace to our kids. And
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  Speaker 1: it drives me nuts. Like if your kid is yelling
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: and you want them to stop yelling, then why are
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: you yelling at them?
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  Speaker 2: Right? You're doing the thing you don't want them to do.
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  Speaker 2: This is why I have been preaching this quote from
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Joseph Ladeau for 25 years. 25 years, Penny. In times
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: of stress, our thinking is confused and distorted. When you
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: are stressed, you can't think clearly, so you do crazy
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: things like yell at your child and expect them not
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: to yell. You do crazy things like hit your child
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: and expect them to not hit or to not be
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: afraid because our short-term memories shut off. We cannot remember
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: that those things do not work. They may help get
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: a very short-term Compliant response, or it's really a compliant reaction,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: because a response requires thought. It requires consciousness. They may
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: get a short-term compliance, but it's doing nothing for the internal, developmental,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: regulatory state that ultimately has to mature in order for
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: our children to go out and navigate the world. See,
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: punishment is external. Discipline is internal. And we will not
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: internalize something we feel threatened by. If you feel threatened
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  Speaker 2: by it, you got to push it away.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: It's our instinct.
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  Speaker 2: It's instinct. It's instinct. It's natural. It's automatic.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: I was just watching a talk from several years ago
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: with Dr. Bruce Perry, and he was talking so much
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: about relationship, that we are built our biology requires relationship
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: yes requires it and he was talking about how far
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: away we're getting from that right between um this was
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: actually pre-covid even when he was doing this talk but
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: i think about you know the isolation we had with
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: covid and uh we're on devices more than we are
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: in person and while that provides some opportunities we have
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: to remember that we need that relational aspect too. And
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: I think that we forget as parents sometimes how important
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: that is in helping the nervous system feel regulated and
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: safe so that that thinking brain can be accessible, right?
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: It's critical. It's critical. Once you lose the relationships, You
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: lose everything because you lose the ability to influence. And
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: once you lose relationship, the only alternative is control. So
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: then you move into control. And then you're really setting
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: up a nasty dynamic because every human being that exists
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: needs to have some modicum of control over their life
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: in order to feel safe. So if you move into
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: control and you start taking away the control and exerting
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: your will over your child's will, then all you're doing
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: is setting up a nasty cycle that may work while
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: they're five and it may work when they're 10, but
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: it's not going to work when they hit adolescence. And
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: now because you've lost all relationship, you have no ability
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: to influence. And it's so... It's so difficult and challenging
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  Speaker 2: for us as adults because we live in a fear-based
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: society and we have been taught ourselves, our DNA is
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: conditioned for stress and fear. So when bad things show
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: up or scary things show up, the automatic thing that
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: our cellular system does is constricts into survival, which is
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: the antithesis of relationship. And that's why this work is
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: so simple, but it's so difficult because you're going against
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: everything that you've ever been conditioned to know. And so
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: we just, and that's why you come back to, you
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: got to stop, you got to stop and breathe. That's
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: the most powerful lesson anyone can learn. is to be
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: able to breathe in the midst of stress. When you
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: can breathe in the midst of stress, you are accessing
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: complete consciousness. When you can breathe in the midst of stress,
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: you're accessing love. When you can breathe in the midst
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: of stress, you have a direct line to God. You're
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: infusing yourself with God, because God is love and God
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: is consciousness. And when you're not breathing, you're shutting off
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  Speaker 2: that access. So you're shutting off all your power. The
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: most powerful person is the person who can breathe and
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: calm themselves down. Yeah, yeah.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: I just learned yesterday that the Chinese symbol for listen
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  Speaker 1: includes an ear and a heart.
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  Speaker 2: Perfect. Right?
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  Speaker 1: I found that so powerful. So powerful. If we start
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  Speaker 1: listening with our hearts... Yes.
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  Speaker 2: Imagine how different the whole world.
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  Speaker 1: Can be, right? But if we can just focus on that,
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  Speaker 1: you know, you're talking about taking a breath, which is
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  Speaker 1: helping our body and our nervous system to try to modulate.
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  Speaker 1: And then, you know, if we can then also have
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  Speaker 1: this mindfulness moment of like, I really want to listen
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  Speaker 1: with my heart. I want to respond with my heart
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  Speaker 1: to this child who is in front of me struggling,
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  Speaker 1: not giving me a hard time, but struggling.
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  Speaker 2: Right?
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  Speaker 1: How different that dynamic could be as well. Just really, really,
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  Speaker 1: really sat with me. Again, seems so easy, right?
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  Speaker 2: But it's not easy.
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  Speaker 1: It's not easy to go against our biology that's trying
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  Speaker 1: to protect us. But these are simple concepts that we
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  Speaker 1: just have to continue to practice. I know that you
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  Speaker 1: talk some in your work also about how our childhoods
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  Speaker 1: as the adults impact how we how we respond to
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  Speaker 1: challenging behavior, how we respond to our kids or our
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  Speaker 1: students or other, you know, people in the world around us.
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  Speaker 1: Do you want to talk a minute about how we
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  Speaker 1: can sort of uncover when that's happening for us, when
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  Speaker 1: things that were problematic for us in childhood are actually
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  Speaker 1: coming out in the ways that we're responding to kids?
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  Speaker 2: Well, these things are very unconscious because they occur in
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  Speaker 2: childhood and we don't store a lot of those very
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  Speaker 2: specific accessible conscious memories. So all that's very unconscious. It's
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  Speaker 2: buried in your brainstem. And so I like to give
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  Speaker 2: people a really easy exercise. I call it easy. It's
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  Speaker 2: not easy. It's very difficult. Even just attempting it is difficult.
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  Speaker 2: But we only grow through challenge. And so what you
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  Speaker 2: do is the next time you find yourself being reactive
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  Speaker 2: to someone or something, you take those three to 10
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  Speaker 2: deep breaths. You ask yourself, how am I feeling? You
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  Speaker 2: breathe into that feeling. And then you ask yourself, when
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  Speaker 2: was the first time I ever had this feeling? And
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  Speaker 2: you spend some time and get really honest. with the
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  Speaker 2: first time you had that feeling, and it's going to
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  Speaker 2: take you way back further than this present moment. Because
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  Speaker 2: I like to say that anytime we're finding ourselves being
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  Speaker 2: reactive to someone or something, it has far less to
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  Speaker 2: do with that person and that thing and far more
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  Speaker 2: to do with ourselves and something we've experienced. So if
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  Speaker 2: people will just try and I'm just going to say
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  Speaker 2: try because I know it's not easy. If you try,
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  Speaker 2: it's like practice, and it does take practice. The moment
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  Speaker 2: you find yourself feeling reactive, and that's upset. That's wanting
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  Speaker 2: to choke your child or wanting to kick them out
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  Speaker 2: of the car or kick them out of the house
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  Speaker 2: or any reactivity. We all know what reaction is. And
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  Speaker 2: this is even after you react. Even after you yell
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  Speaker 2: and you do something you know ultimately you shouldn't have done,
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  Speaker 2: you can still do it. That's oftentimes the best time.
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  Speaker 2: Take a deep breath. You get in touch with how
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  Speaker 2: that made you feel. And then you ask yourself, when
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  Speaker 2: was the first time I felt that way before? And
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  Speaker 2: you will have an eye-opening experience if you really slow down.
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  Speaker 2: And then what you do is you go to your
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  Speaker 2: child or your partner and you apologize. And you say
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  Speaker 2: that that reminded me of this situation. And that's why
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  Speaker 2: I got so upset. And I'm really sorry. You didn't
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  Speaker 2: deserve that. And I'm really sorry for me, Brian, that
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  Speaker 2: I had to experience that. And Brian, thank you for
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  Speaker 2: sharing that with me. Because when that comes up again,
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to slow down and I'm going to spend
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  Speaker 2: some time listening to a part of myself that hasn't
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  Speaker 2: been heard before. And that's why I get upset. And
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  Speaker 2: then I'm going to grow in my consciousness. And then
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  Speaker 2: when I grow in my consciousness, I grow in my power. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: We don't reflect enough.
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  Speaker 1: This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately.
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  Speaker 1: We have to reflect to grow, right? We have to
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  Speaker 1: reflect to grow.
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  Speaker 2: That's right.
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  Speaker 1: But we're so on autopilot that we're not stopping and
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  Speaker 1: reflecting enough so that we can grow. And I think
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  Speaker 1: it's a really valuable skill to be teaching students our
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  Speaker 1: children as well. Imagine if they could grow up reflecting
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  Speaker 1: and learning these things, right? How different their experience will
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  Speaker 1: be when they're the adult.
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  Speaker 2: It'd be a completely different world if we as adults
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  Speaker 2: and we as parents would work on being more mindful
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  Speaker 2: and more aware so that we could then create a
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  Speaker 2: model for our children and their little mirror neurons to
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  Speaker 2: To model us being more mindful and being more aware.
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  Speaker 2: And then they're going to grow up being more mindful
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  Speaker 2: and more aware. And that's how you change society. But
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  Speaker 2: it starts with the adults. It starts with the adults.
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  Speaker 1: And being purposeful. I think so much of what you're
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  Speaker 1: talking about is taking the time to be purposeful. Because
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  Speaker 1: we all feel like we don't have the time, right?
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  Speaker 1: We're all so busy and we don't have the time.
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  Speaker 1: And we have to make time for it. It just
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  Speaker 1: changes so much. It's worth the time.
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  Speaker 2: We do have the time. We're just too stressed. And
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  Speaker 2: when you're stressed and your thinking's not clear, you're like,
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  Speaker 2: I don't have time. I don't have time. But really,
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  Speaker 2: that's all you have. All you have is time. and
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  Speaker 2: a dynamic you're creating that is like the parent trying
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  Speaker 2: to force the child to get up to go to school,
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  Speaker 2: which is going to create 20 minutes of conflict, if
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  Speaker 2: that parent would give themselves permission to slow down, to
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  Speaker 2: really tune in to where their child is at, maybe
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  Speaker 2: readjust their approach instead of freaking out and threatening and shaming,
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  Speaker 2: go in, soothe, nurture, be curious as to why your
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  Speaker 2: child is struggling to get up and go to school.
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  Speaker 2: And then that 20 minutes that you would have spent
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  Speaker 2: in conflict, you condense that down to five minutes, five minutes,
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  Speaker 2: but five minutes is a long time. It's a long
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  Speaker 2: time when we're really present and we're really connected.
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  Speaker 1: Sometimes it's scary.
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  Speaker 2: It's so scary. See, we're back to that fear thing. Yep.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: We're back to that fear thing.
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  Speaker 1: Totally.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: There's so much work to do on ourselves. You know,
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  Speaker 1: I've been saying for years about this parenting. It's like
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  Speaker 1: 90% about us.
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  Speaker 2: That's right.
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  Speaker 1: And like 10% about our kids. We're not trying to change.
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  Speaker 1: them we're not trying to fix them it's the most
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  Speaker 1: important work it really is the most important work we
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: can do is self-work yeah let everybody know where they
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: can find you online where they can learn from you
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  Speaker 1: maybe work with you all the good stuff sure Fear2Love.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: Com is probably the best website. There's also a BrianPost.com.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: And then on Instagram, BrianPostOfficial, we put a lot of
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: videos up there all the time just to offer support
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: and education and encouragement.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: And they're fantastic.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: They're so fantastic. I really appreciate the work that you're doing.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: I'm going to link all of that up for everyone
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: in the show notes. And I thank everybody for being here.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: And I thank you so much, Brian, for sharing just
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: a little bit of your time and your wisdom with
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: us and the work that you're doing. In the world,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: it's really meaningful.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you, Penny. My pleasure.
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  Speaker 1: We'll see everybody next time. Take good care. Visit beautifully-complex.com
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: for more resources, coaching, and parent training. And help another
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: kid by sharing this with someone who could benefit from listening.