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The Theory Is Usually Wrong · The Lagging Team

0:00
Devon Morris: How often is that conclusion really wrong?
0:06
Brandon Raines: It's wrong most of the time.
0:09
Devon Morris: This is the lagging team. Falling behind is
0:13
a position, not a verdict. Today's episode is stop blaming
0:19
the team. Diagnosing the real gap. My friend, my colleague, a
0:26
peer of mine, Brandon Raines. Let's just welcome him, welcome
0:31
him, welcome him, welcome him, welcome him. Brandon, recently
0:35
we did a we did a APA presentation, man, that I think
0:38
was off the charts. How you feeling, man? It
0:41
Brandon Raines: was huge, man. It was huge. I'm, I'm still over
0:45
the moon about that whole experience. I mean, it was so
0:48
good on so many levels. It was fantastic.
0:52
Devon Morris: People talked about it. People reached out.
0:54
People asked, "Do we want to present in other places? It's
0:58
been a good response.
1:01
Brandon Raines: It's been an amazing response, and like I
1:03
said, it's on so many levels, right? Like you and I got to
1:07
connect again and do something together that felt super
1:10
special. Then people actually responded really well to it, you
1:15
know, and have continued to respond really well to it. So I
1:18
mean, like, how could you ask for more?
1:21
Devon Morris: Yeah, well, you know, man, we're gonna have to
1:22
do the the the round to earth show and and continue to do this
1:27
for sure. So, so I'm sorry, y'all, we didn't got started
1:31
here, but let me really introduce my friend here.
1:34
Brandon Raines is a professional certified coach and founder of
1:40
Shakunen advisors, he spends his days in rooms with leaders who
1:45
are frustrated with their teams, and he spent enough time there
1:49
to know that the story the leader is telling usually isn't
1:52
the story that is actually happening. I asked Brandon here
1:56
because he is really special to me, but let me add to that
2:00
because he knows how to go about fixing teams that have fallen
2:05
behind, and he's somebody that knows how to diagnose teams
2:12
appropriately and get to the why. Brandon, here is something
2:18
I keep coming back to: when a team falls behind, the leader
2:23
almost always has a theory about why, and the theory is usually
2:27
wrong. So let's kick this thing off by allowing you to tell me
2:34
or the audience here about a time you watched really that
2:38
ground shake and move under a team.
2:45
Brandon Raines: Yeah, wow. You know, lots to pick from, right?
2:48
But I would say, like, there's a team pretty recently that I was
2:53
working with where I had just come in in, and you know,
2:59
getting to know a team. One of the things I really like to do
3:01
is to get to know the team, get to know the team, get to know
3:04
the leaders, get to know the customer set to make to get a
3:09
really good understanding of what's going on, and
3:11
understanding that there are so many different perspectives of
3:14
what's going on, and that those perspectives are important and
3:17
they're all voices to be heard. I think one of the things is
3:23
that I understood was they weren't they were they were
3:26
always getting stalled. It seemed you know just looking at
3:30
the data and then that data started to match up with the
3:33
narratives of what I was hearing from from folks and there was
3:38
just a lot of stalls that were happening here and there,
3:42
meaning, you know, they would get started on something, and
3:46
then all of a sudden, it just started to to wane as far as the
3:50
progress that they were making, and then something else would
3:52
start up again. And you know, we we started to to look in and and
3:57
have an understanding, and yeah, like you like you had said, the
4:02
the ground started moving from underneath the team, and you
4:05
know the the the finger started pointing at the team. Yeah,
4:10
toward, and so what we so what we found it was a couple of
4:16
things. We we had some conversations together, all of
4:19
us together, and that was another thing that I found
4:22
didn't wasn't happening a whole lot was that these conversations
4:26
were happening in pockets. So there was a lot of hidden
4:29
information about what was going on, you know, hidden from the
4:33
team, hidden from the leaders, hidden from the customers, and
4:38
that was one of the things that seemed like it might be a good
4:40
idea. Like let's maybe let's talk together, share some some
4:44
things together with with each other. Now
4:47
Devon Morris: I know you probably had the opportunity to
4:49
actually get the perspective of the leader. So what did the
4:56
leader think was actually happening?
5:01
Brandon Raines: You know, it it was a spectrum, right? It was a
5:03
spectrum of I'm not sure that I'm getting everything out of
5:08
every individual on the team, therefore out of the entire
5:11
team. I'm not sure that they understand what our customer or
5:17
me is asking for. Like I ask for something, I don't get what I
5:21
expect.
5:22
Devon Morris: Yeah.
5:25
Brandon Raines: I think there was some there was there was
5:27
there was some frustration even with the customer set and you
5:31
know asking for a lot of things all at once and not being clear
5:35
on you know what that thing is describing that thing and when
5:39
they needed
5:40
Devon Morris: it
5:41
Brandon Raines: or or the indecision around what was
5:44
needed.
5:45
Devon Morris: Okay,
5:46
Brandon Raines: so yeah, that's that's what I was hearing from
5:47
the leader.
5:49
Devon Morris: You you had mentioned earlier some of the
5:51
things that you you saw in reality, and it doesn't seem to
5:55
match what the leader was thinking. So how far apart was
6:00
those two different realities?
6:02
Brandon Raines: Oh, it was massive. It was massive. It was
6:06
one of those things where, you know, I guess I kind of viewed
6:10
myself at one point as a Martian, you know, looking down
6:13
on a planet, right, going, "That's different. You know,
6:17
this is like I'm really visiting a different civilization, kind
6:21
of thing, and and and looking at it from the perspective of wow,
6:26
there's similarity from my perspective of what's happening
6:30
and what I see, but they see such a a desperate reality.
6:36
Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and I like that description
6:39
of being that Martian, right? Looking at something from the
6:42
outside, and so the the the question is, when you when you
6:48
look back at them, what did it cost them? Kind of sitting in
6:55
the wrong diagnosis for how long they sat in
7:00
Brandon Raines: it. It cost them time. It costs them reputation.
7:06
It costs energy, sanity. Right? People were frustrated, and
7:10
that's not a great place to be when you come into work every
7:13
single day and you feel frustrated. Especially when you,
7:16
you know, I'm of the belief, and this is what I experienced with
7:18
this particular team and so many teams. People want to come to
7:21
work and do a good job. Yeah, you know they they they want to
7:24
do a good job. They want to feel successful, and that's all
7:28
around. Whether or not you're a leader, a customer, or the team,
7:33
you know people want to win. You know people really do want to
7:36
win and be successful, and you know it just it it becomes a
7:40
sinking feeling when you have that desire, and sometimes don't
7:46
have the tools, or sometimes have the tools but don't know
7:48
how to use them properly to get to that win or that success.
7:54
Devon Morris: So then, when you start going back to that
7:57
misdiagnosis, give me an idea of why do you think leaders just
8:07
kind of default to it's the people?
8:15
Brandon Raines: So I'm going to give you an answer that I don't
8:19
that always makes Me sad,
8:21
Devon Morris: okay, okay.
8:22
Brandon Raines: But I think that it's the easy thing to do.
8:28
Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah. You know that's
8:32
Brandon Raines: yeah. the The person in front of you, that's
8:36
the as humans, that's the easy thing to do is blame the person
8:40
and not understand the problem and put the problem out in
8:44
front, and then you know create an alliance with everybody
8:49
around and say, "Hey, there's the problem. Let's attack the
8:52
problem.
8:53
Devon Morris: Yeah,
8:53
Brandon Raines: it's really easy to say, "Hey, Devon, you're not
8:56
doing so well today.
8:58
Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah, and it take it takes it really does
9:01
take pressure off them from really trying to really figure
9:05
it out, and so realistically, when you have when you've seen
9:08
that experience and you've had it time and time again, how
9:12
often is that conclusion really wrong?
9:18
Brandon Raines: It's wrong most of the time, You know, it's
9:21
like, yeah. So I guess the way that I usually see it is when
9:29
it's the person, it's a situation where this isn't the
9:34
person for that particular position. It isn't like you
9:37
suck,
9:38
Devon Morris: yeah,
9:39
Brandon Raines: right, or you're a you're a terrible developer,
9:41
or you're a terrible tester. It might not it may not be a good
9:47
fit in terms of team, in terms of culture, in terms of this
9:51
particular product. Rarely do I see it's a skill set. I've seen
9:56
that, you know. I've totally seen that, but that usually.
10:00
Isn't that usually isn't the case? That's more the exception
10:04
rather than the rule.
10:06
Devon Morris: And and and we not and by no stretch of the
10:07
imagination would Brandon or myself be saying that you don't
10:12
have situations where it just really truly isn't a good fit or
10:15
you have really a performance issue that happens. Those things
10:18
do happen. We we all can agree on that, right? But as you get
10:22
beyond those type of issues, we're talking about when it
10:25
normally really happens. Most of the time, it's just not the
10:28
case. And so then, what makes blaming a team so comfortable
10:34
for the various levels of leadership? And then, how do you
10:38
see that surface in terms of with the team, with the work
10:43
every day.
10:45
Brandon Raines: Yeah. So again, I want to go back to to this.
10:48
People want to win. People want to be successful. So the vast
10:50
majority of leaders that I encounter really want to figure
10:54
out what the deal is. You know what what is causing the
10:58
particular issue. I mean, it's usually why we get hired, right?
11:01
That's that's the cool thing, right? And I think sometimes
11:05
it's getting to that point of understanding. Hey, I may need a
11:08
different perspective, and maybe I, as a leader, even sometimes I
11:14
have this, I have these these tools, these leadership tools,
11:18
but maybe not how to apply them in that particular situation
11:23
that I'm in, and so I think that's another one of those
11:26
things of of crossing that particular bridge is how do I
11:30
apply my leadership tools for this particular situation that
11:34
I'm in with this team? You know, because teams can be different;
11:38
they have their own they have their own culture and way of
11:43
working and personality, if you will, and then how do you apply
11:46
those leadership skills to that particular team that's in front
11:49
of me that I'm actually leading, not the team from two years ago
11:54
where I was super successful and everything went lovely. It's the
11:57
team that's in front of me that I'm working with right now.
12:01
Devon Morris: Yeah, and you you said something earlier that I
12:05
want to kind of come back to, and that this goes back to the
12:10
cost, right? What's the cost of getting that diagnosis wrong?
12:14
And I'm not talking about in wasted effort because I know we
12:18
mentioned effort, but what it does to the team is the
12:23
question.
12:26
Brandon Raines: Yeah, I I think I don't think I'm not sure you
12:30
can put a price on reduced morale for a team. Like the hit
12:37
is huge for it for a team, and I think it goes. It's it can
12:43
proliferate too.
12:44
Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:46
Brandon Raines: Across beyond the team, across the entire
12:50
culture, and so for me, that cost is you start to lose faith.
12:55
It starts to affect your performance. It starts starts to
12:58
affect the results.
13:00
Devon Morris: Yeah,
13:00
Brandon Raines: it starts to eat in, and that success that we've
13:03
been talking about,
13:04
Devon Morris: and and and I like that because when when when when
13:07
I when I think about that brand, and it goes back to the
13:10
presentation that we did, right? Thinking about that ability to
13:15
bounce back when things aren't really going right, being able
13:19
to build up that capacity is impossible. is It's hard to do
13:26
if you're not motivated. You just don't have the morale. You
13:29
just don't feel like things are going to really truly go in the
13:32
right direction, and so it could have a huge, huge, huge impact
13:36
on a team. And you've seen it time and time again. I've seen
13:40
it time and time again because we always come into situations
13:42
where we got to deal with some of the hardest problems, and I
13:46
know you experience it over and over again, my friend.
13:51
Brandon Raines: Yeah, and I think what I'm particularly
13:52
struck with struck by is when I walk into when I work with an
13:58
organization, I pay a lot of attention to responses and
14:01
reactions, and and by that I mean, well, when something
14:05
didn't go as planned, is there is there a reaction or is there
14:10
a response? For me, the distinction between the two is
14:14
reaction is, whoa, that sucked, that was terrible. What in the
14:19
world did we do? What happened here, as opposed to a response
14:23
for me at least, is hey this is this happened. What should we
14:29
do? And I think that one of the big things about it is we. What
14:34
do we do about it? And I think it's what did we learn. So I'll
14:39
start listening to stuff like that. Do we use these as
14:43
learning opportunities, and then put those learning opportunities
14:47
into the next event?
14:49
Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah. For me,
14:51
Brandon Raines: that kind of pulls up the team.
14:53
Devon Morris: Yeah, a lot. And and you want to and you want to
14:57
pull up the team collectively. Because in many organizations,
15:03
the team is truly the unit of what it takes to deliver
15:05
something. Especially environments that you work in
15:08
and that I work in, there's such levels of complexity that you
15:13
have to have specialized skills. And if you got specialized
15:15
skills, usually it means that people, one person, can't
15:18
deliver everything or do the most effective job at delivering
15:22
every piece of what it takes to make something, and so you know
15:25
you you you're gonna have a team more than likely put together to
15:29
deliver that, and making sure that unit can function and
15:33
operate in a way where it can be the best team it can be is
15:38
important. So yeah, so then I start thinking. I'm starting to
15:41
think about the gap, right? Because we we've been we've been
15:45
messaging this for years. I mean, you definitely have. I
15:50
definitely have. It gets so bad that that at least I get to the
15:54
point where I just go, "Hey, man, if you just listen, we can
15:57
get over this hump. You know what that that's like, right?
16:03
And so, when you think about clarity, agreement, environment,
16:13
capacity, where does it? Where does that gap often land? You
16:21
know, when it comes to a team,
16:24
Brandon Raines: you know, you hit it like first word, clarity,
16:28
right? Like, and that's where I usually see the big gaps. And
16:33
I'll use another, use a complementary word is is that we
16:36
use a whole lot, right? Visibility, making things big
16:39
and visible.
16:40
Devon Morris: Yeah,
16:40
Brandon Raines: and so part of that is making the big invisible
16:43
and being clear. Like a a good friend of mine introduced me to
16:48
one of those Brene Brown quotes of "clear as kind, and you know
16:53
it's one of those things of being really clear about roles,
16:57
being really clear about intent, being really clear about what is
17:02
the what's what works in this particular culture? What may not
17:05
work really well in this particular culture? What are we
17:08
trying to strive for? And in making all of those things
17:13
really visible, really known from moment one.
17:16
Devon Morris: Yeah, I mean, and clarity is if I'm a member of
17:19
this team, as a member of this team, I learn my team member as
17:25
well, and I may know my team member may be may we might have
17:28
the same role, but they may be a little bit weak at this
17:31
particular thing. While I'm a little bit stronger, and we find
17:34
ways to to kind of cover those gaps. So clarity comes in many
17:38
many ways. But but I'm glad you keyed in on clarity, right? What
17:43
does a clarity problem look like from the outside versus a
17:48
capability problem?
17:52
Brandon Raines: Yeah. So when I see clarity issues from the
17:55
outside, I often I will often say, "Hey, what is actually the
18:01
goal for this particular product? Yeah. Who is it for?
18:07
Because it's you know when sometimes when I walk in, it's
18:10
not clear to me. Like I will have those questions, and I will
18:15
often experience the pause and the hmm, I'm not sure. You know,
18:22
we're down in the weeds. Like if you talk to an individual
18:27
developer or somebody on the development team, you know, you
18:31
you get that pause and not have a really clear answer.
18:34
Devon Morris: Yeah.
18:34
Brandon Raines: And sometimes maybe even a customer, because
18:37
in some spaces that I work in, customers turn over so often.
18:41
Devon Morris: Yeah.
18:41
Brandon Raines: And they just kind of handed it to them.
18:45
Devon Morris: Yeah, no, I I agree with that. I mean, and it
18:47
goes back to the very simple statement of setting a goal,
18:52
right? Setting, right? You know, when you think about OKRs, when
18:56
you think about goals within a sprint or across a roadmap for a
19:01
particular release, right? What you're trying to do in terms of
19:03
ROI, having some clarity around that is really absolutely super
19:10
important. So then, when is it genuinely a people problem, and
19:18
how do you know the difference?
19:22
Brandon Raines: I I know the difference in a couple of
19:24
different ways. So when when is it a people problem? For me, I
19:30
define the people problem is not a good fit for a particular
19:34
culture, for a particular team, and it may be a skill set. It
19:37
may be that we misidentify the skill that we actually needed on
19:41
the team, yeah. And this person just doesn't fit the bill, or
19:44
maybe at the skill level that the team needs at that
19:48
particular point. And perhaps there's not a lot of space for
19:51
that person to grow into that role. There's just not enough
19:55
time. Like there's the speed, the speed of which the team
19:59
needs. To operate doesn't allow that person to grow at the level
20:05
that the team needs it, and so that may that that may be a
20:08
personnel, that might be a skill set, and again, not the right
20:12
person for this team at this particular time. And what are we
20:16
going to do about
20:17
Devon Morris: it? Yeah. Do you have do you have an example of
20:20
that in terms of your experience, something specific
20:23
without going into the people that were involved.
20:29
Brandon Raines: I'm actually going through a probably, gosh,
20:32
I'm almost working 30 years. Probably one of the most
20:35
egregious examples of that right now. This is crazy timely, So, a
20:43
person was hired into a team, and this person was replacing
20:50
someone else. Yeah, and you know, honestly, that person that
20:56
left the team, huge reputation, fantastic, stellar reputation,
21:03
and did I mean like this was he? He was the definition of a
21:08
T-shaped person, right? Like super wide.
21:11
Devon Morris: Now hold up now, now please, please, please.
21:14
Everybody's not agile people. Yeah. What's T? What is what is
21:18
T-shaped?
21:19
Brandon Raines: Yeah. So if you think about somebody who has a
21:23
breadth of skills across a lot of different areas, so think
21:26
about a T going wide, and then there may be a couple of skill
21:30
sets that they can go really deep in, right? So that's the
21:33
vertical part of of the T. So that's what I mean by a T-shaped
21:37
person, and oftentimes teams will, a lot of teams will strive
21:42
to have as many T-shaped people as possible. I'm a fan of at
21:47
least having one, depending on the size of size of your team.
21:50
Okay,
21:52
and so this this person who was there was a you know like you
21:57
look in the dictionary for T-shaped person. This guy was
22:01
that, you know, and so unfortunately, you know that the
22:07
the next person who was hired, you know, they were stepping
22:09
into some really large shoes.
22:11
Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah. Having
22:12
Brandon Raines: said that, the gap, the gap between you know
22:16
what was needed and what showed up in this in in the new person
22:21
was just massive, or is just massive.
22:24
Devon Morris: Yeah,
22:24
Brandon Raines: and I think just being able to realize that,
22:29
realize that quickly, and then being able to reevaluate what is
22:34
it that we actually need, and let's make sure we put this
22:38
person. This person shouldn't be on this team,
22:41
Devon Morris: yeah.
22:42
Brandon Raines: What do we actually need going forward? And
22:45
let's reevaluate that.
22:48
Devon Morris: I'm curious. Like this is this is a this is a
22:51
question coming from a very different place, and I can ask
22:54
this of you because you have had several roles, right? So you are
23:00
probably one of those few people that are a classic T-shaped
23:06
person. Okay, my question for you, as a person who is a
23:12
classic T-shaped person with a breadth of skills and several of
23:16
them that go deep, were you able to recognize be that because of
23:22
your past being a T shaped person, because other people
23:27
aren't that, and how do you recognize that if you've never
23:31
really truly been a T kind of shaped person?
23:37
Brandon Raines: Ooh, wow! I would imagine. Oh wow!
23:42
Devon Morris: You know, I say that, Brandon, because I'm a
23:45
T-shaped person, right?
23:46
Yeah. And I'm
23:47
able to see lots of things that a lot of people can't see, and
23:52
so I'm curious, and I'm getting your perspective on this, right?
23:56
There's a lot of people that's gonna be listening, watching.
24:00
It's not T-shaped. How do they? How how do they recognize that
24:05
if they haven't been exposed to it?
24:10
Brandon Raines: Ooh, man, you asked me two back-to-back hard
24:12
questions. I I I think to answer your first one is, would I have
24:20
been able to recognize that if I weren't a T-shaped person, I
24:23
think certainly would have been harder. It it certainly made it
24:27
easier for me to go, whoa, there's a big gap here,
24:34
Devon Morris: yeah,
24:34
Brandon Raines: and to do it pretty quickly. How would
24:39
somebody who didn't have that experience do it. So first, one
24:44
of the things that I would say is don't do it by yourself,
24:47
right? Like, and and honestly, I I had to. I I said, hey y'all,
24:54
here's what I'm seeing. Are y'all seeing the same thing in
24:57
terms of the gap here, the skill set gap?
25:00
Yeah,
25:01
and others. There were some folks who you know struggled a
25:04
little bit, or were on the fence, or what weren't really
25:07
sure. There were others who were like, "Yeah, dude, you're right.
25:11
Yeah, yeah. So that was helpful. It was helpful to me. It was
25:14
helpful to all of us because it was it was a validation kind of
25:17
thing just to make sure, because that's a hard thing, right?
25:20
You're talking about somebody, and potentially their
25:23
livelihood. It's a job. It's a real human being here.
25:27
Devon Morris: Yes. Yes. Now, and and and it's not just there's a
25:32
real human here, but there's real judgment here, right?
25:37
Brandon Raines: Yeah.
25:37
Devon Morris: There's real judgment here, and you're
25:40
talking about somebody who could be really amazing, super deep,
25:46
like really amazing, super deep. That's one area right here, and
25:52
they are super dope, greatest ever, the greatest ever.
25:58
Brandon Raines: Yeah,
25:58
Devon Morris: but then they had a Predecessor. There was a T
26:05
shape that that was able to go deep. Maybe not as deep in that
26:08
one thing, but could go across to help everybody out too.
26:13
Brandon Raines: Yeah,
26:14
Devon Morris: that's a tough situation for a person to walk
26:18
into, man. That's a tough. Really
26:20
Brandon Raines: is.
26:21
Devon Morris: Wow, wow, wow. So I'm like, whoa, that that that's
26:25
tough. That that's spot on. So here's the deal, right? Let's
26:29
let's shift gears a little bit because we already have done
26:32
that, and I want to start talking about how to diagnose
26:37
these things, right? How do you really get at that why or what's
26:42
happening or what's going on going on, and this is really
26:45
just trying to deal with that coaching craft that you do so
26:49
very well. Walk me through it. You've you are brought into a
26:57
team that's actually behind. Everybody says that they're
27:02
actually behind. The team knows that they're actually behind.
27:08
What do you do first?
27:11
Brandon Raines: I think one of the things I want I do is craft
27:15
a definition of success. So if this is what behind looks like,
27:19
tell me what on pace or success look like. Be pretty articulate
27:25
about that and say that in front of the team. That's one of the
27:30
first things.
27:31
Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah. Because
27:31
Brandon Raines: that way they at least know here's where we're
27:33
going.
27:34
Devon Morris: Yeah, this
27:35
Brandon Raines: is what we need to do. Make sure that they
27:37
understand that because unfortunately there are times
27:40
again. This is where I was talking about that some
27:43
conversations happen in pockets, right, and not together. Is
27:46
sometimes the team doesn't even know that they're behind or
27:50
they're not doing what is being asked of them. And so it again
27:54
is it goes back to that clear as kind kind of thing of being
27:57
being really clear of hey, this is what success looks like.
28:01
Here's where we are right now. Let's talk about how we get
28:04
there.
28:06
Devon Morris: I think I think that's an amazing that's an
28:09
amazing answer. You know, I was I was coaching someone through
28:16
an interview through an interview, and I told them just
28:20
one big question to ask is what does success look like for this
28:24
role that I'm applying for, right? It's like what does that
28:28
end result look like? So for those that don't quite get what
28:30
he's saying, that's what it's like. Most of the vast majority
28:33
of y'all have been through an interview, right? And so what
28:35
it's like is when you get to the other side, what does success
28:39
look like? And for a team, that's important because if you
28:42
can see that in gold, now we really can talk about the how
28:47
the in between the gap between where we are at and where we
28:51
need to go. So I that's one of the most amazing answers. Sorry
28:57
to am asking you hard questions or amazing questions, but that's
29:01
what I'm supposed to do. You're here for that, right? All right,
29:04
Brandon Raines: amazing questions. Yes, I'm here for it.
29:08
Devon Morris: All right, so then, so here's now, now let
29:10
let's let's let's take it in a little bit, right? What are you
29:18
listening for that the leader standing right there can't hear
29:29
Brandon Raines: clarity. The lack, or I should say, the lack
29:33
of clarity, the lack of expectations. I'm listening for
29:40
oftentimes roll down. or at least pointing out that of what
29:49
roles does the team need in order to be successful.
29:52
Devon Morris: Yeah,
29:54
Brandon Raines: I'm also listening for that that maybe
29:58
the leader can't hear. Was not aware of tone of how that person
30:04
addresses the team, but also is there some notion of learning?
30:13
So just being able to to work in a way such that hey okay we we
30:19
did a little bit. What did we learn, and how do we push that
30:22
into into the next cycle of learning? So I often want to
30:27
hear it. Is is there that notion, or is more of a notion
30:30
of we failed, that sucked, you suck,
30:35
Devon Morris: yeah. All
30:36
Brandon Raines: right, let's go again. So I'm listening for
30:40
those two, those two things,
30:44
Devon Morris: I I like it. I love it. I even wrote down a
30:46
couple here because it just leads into the next thing I'm
30:49
going to ask you. And again, there are many leaders on a
30:56
team, right? There's team leaders on a team. There's
30:59
leaders that are external to the team, so any kind of leader
31:04
here. Okay, what questions do you ask that? I just I just
31:14
asked you that, right? I'm about to ask you that again. What
31:18
tells you the team knows something the leader doesn't.
31:22
That's what I really want to ask you. How do you know that? What
31:26
tells you that?
31:31
Brandon Raines: You know what? The biggest tell is body
31:33
language. So I. I mean, you know,
31:37
Devon Morris: literally when I say to you, when I say to you, I
31:39
wrote down body language is one of those things I wanted to ask
31:42
about. I wrote it right here, and I said to myself, "I'm not
31:47
gonna bring that up. We're gonna see. And you brought it up, so
31:50
great, great minds think alike. Continue that. Continue that
31:53
thread.
31:54
Brandon Raines: Yeah, I love, I love to be able to sit and see
31:59
the shifts in the seat for you know, this kind of thing, or you
32:07
know, or the the head going down motions that I sometimes see, or
32:16
you know, the opposite of that of the perk ups, right? Or you
32:20
know, hmm, ah, the ohs and the ahs, those all matter. Like I,
32:27
there's some teams that we're in person. There's some teams that
32:30
you know kind of work remotely. Most of the teams I work with
32:33
right now are are physically located with each other.
32:38
Devon Morris: Yeah,
32:38
Brandon Raines: but sometimes we still get on you know these
32:42
video conferences, and I will often encourage folks, even if
32:46
you aren't on camera, come off of mute. And I will often say
32:50
the O's and the A's tell a whole story, right? So they do. Let's
32:56
hear them.
32:58
Devon Morris: You know what's what's beautiful about what's
32:59
beautiful about what you just said is you and I just did that
33:03
presentation in terms of APA, right? And we we had never done
33:10
a presentation together before, and nobody in that room would
33:13
ever guess that. But here's what I recognized with you
33:19
specifically that made me be able to ease my soul, right? Is
33:25
that you were observing the room, you were looking at body
33:33
language, you was listening, you was present, and what that did
33:40
is that helped us with the pacing in the class. So as I saw
33:45
you doing that, I became less worried about the time because I
33:51
knew you was pacing it appropriately. You look at them
33:55
and you saying that oh they're engaged in this. Let's go a
33:58
little thread longer here. Okay, okay. Now we need to take that
34:01
back and get them moving a little bit faster. And being
34:04
able to control that when you're doing a presentation with 7500
34:08
people in a room is what I saw that you were able to do. I do
34:14
it. I'm looking at you. I'm just like this. This is part of the
34:19
reason why nobody could ever recognize that that was our
34:23
first time doing a presentation again.
34:27
Brandon Raines: Yeah, so us working together, it was magical
34:32
and it was really intentional. Because one of the intentional
34:35
parts about it was we established our relationship,
34:39
Devon Morris: yeah, yeah,
34:40
Brandon Raines: our rapport, and quite frankly, the most
34:43
important relationship to me in that room was the one between
34:46
us.
34:47
Devon Morris: Yes.
34:47
Brandon Raines: Secondary was everybody else, right? That was
34:49
going to happen as long as us, our thing together was
34:53
happening, and it happened. It happened, right? It happened in
34:57
a great way. Happening now, right? Like, and I think what
35:02
you pointed it out is being able to pay attention to each other
35:06
and be generous with each other, and and having an understanding
35:09
of where each other is coming from and be additive, right?
35:12
It's like that whole yes and improv thing that happens, and
35:16
part and a lot of that is you want to make the other person
35:20
and therefore the relationship better.
35:23
Devon Morris: Yeah. How long? You know, it's one of those
35:26
things when you're in room, and and this is a question. This is
35:29
a question, right? How long before you usually know what's
35:34
actually going on? You know, after you kind of sit with that
35:38
team or get with that team initially, how long does it
35:41
really take for you to kind of start to see those threads?
35:47
Brandon Raines: So I'm just gonna put some disclaimers out
35:50
here. Yeah, that my answer today is very different from my answer
35:55
five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. Right. Okay. Let me
36:00
just say that to everybody out there. Now,
36:02
Devon Morris: now you got to say that because you've written
36:04
books, which means that comes with perspectives. So, I'm with
36:08
you. I'm with you. I'm with you. Go ahead.
36:14
Brandon Raines: Yeah, and so experience experience counts for
36:17
a whole lot, and practice counts for a whole lot.
36:20
Devon Morris: Yes,
36:23
Brandon Raines: it's it's usually there are some times
36:26
where I can figure it out in the first encounter. Yeah, the the
36:30
first one and and and more disclaimer, right? I always
36:34
reserve. Okay, that was my first encounter. That was my first
36:38
contact with with this system that might be. Let me reserve a
36:43
little bit of maybe I misread something. Yeah. But usually
36:48
it's pretty fast. Usually it's it's hours, days, maybe
36:54
depending on how big the organization is. But now it's
36:58
it's pretty darn fast.
37:00
Devon Morris: Yeah, I I would say you know I agree with you
37:04
and and pretty much with me it's it's um it's I just pressed the
37:08
clap button by mistake, but that was a great answer. With me,
37:15
it's the it's the first impression.
37:17
Brandon Raines: Yeah,
37:18
Devon Morris: because the first impression starts to give you
37:20
something, right? Yeah, and it becomes part of the throughline.
37:24
You can even start seeing who's trying too hard, right? Who's
37:27
really the teacher's head? You can start seeing all kinds of
37:30
things in the in the initial handshake, in the initial intro.
37:36
You can start seeing those things immediately if you're
37:40
listening,
37:42
Brandon Raines: yeah,
37:43
Devon Morris: and unfortunately, a lot of people aren't
37:46
listening, and that's that's where they don't catch it.
37:51
That's where they don't see it. And I think one of the biggest
37:54
distinctions with you, maybe with me, is you listen.
37:59
Brandon Raines: Definitely with you. Definitely with you. Yeah,
38:03
you can go ahead and say it.
38:07
Devon Morris: I can go ahead and claim that one. Now you know,
38:09
but but but a lot of people don't, and and you can you can
38:12
you can see it like like you can tell the distinction between
38:20
really good coaches and ones that aren't as good, and it's
38:24
probably a throughline through all that for me. And it starts
38:29
off with active listening.
38:31
Brandon Raines: Absolutely, absolutely. And you know,
38:34
there's and there's different levels of it. It's kind of like
38:36
what you were describing when we were in the room at APA, right?
38:39
There's different levels of listening. There's the us
38:43
listening to each other. Yes. There's us listening to you know
38:47
the room, and you know for us, there's stuff happening outside
38:51
the room too. Yeah. And so being able to be aware of all those
38:55
all those different levels of what's happening, and being able
38:58
to integrate that, aggregate that, and then be responsive in
39:02
the moment. It's a thing, and you know. So I think one one
39:08
thing that I have stolen, or I have found it super helpful, is
39:13
I think I think it was I think it was that book Blink that I
39:20
read when I first learned about these folks, the Gottmans, and
39:24
they're like these super-they're big heads in the world of
39:27
relationships, particularly romantic relationships. And I
39:31
think I might be screwing up the statistics here, but I think
39:34
that they were able-they were-they were saying that
39:37
effectively they can tell within a blink whether or not a couple
39:42
would end in divorce or be successful 85% of the time,
39:47
listening to one conversation that they had, and if and it was
39:52
it was mostly about what we talked about before. It was like
39:55
tone: how do they talk to each other? How do they answer each
39:58
other? It's all of those. Things and I've started to try to
40:01
integrate that as much as possible. Is look at the body
40:04
language, listen to the tone, listen how they talk with each
40:08
other, and you can tell kind of the state. You can give you
40:11
clues at least into the state or the health of a relationship,
40:15
and perhaps even extrapolate a little bit out.
40:18
Devon Morris: Yeah, I, I, you know, I agree with you 10,000%
40:21
and you know I I remember the days of doing a lot lot of CSM
40:26
trainings, and when we went into the pandemic and had to go home
40:31
and was doing everything virtually, me not being able to
40:35
see somebody's foot tapping on the ground something, and you
40:41
know me being able to adjust myself to go really have a more
40:45
personal conversation with them as I'm training everyone in the
40:49
room. You you mix you you miss out on things like that when you
40:53
don't have that body. You don't you're not able to listen to
40:56
those cues, that body language, things like that. So I agree
41:01
with you wholeheartedly. I absolutely love the answer, but
41:05
we don't stop there because I got a I got another solid
41:07
question for you, right? So then here's the deal, right? Here's
41:10
the deal because you and I know it ain't always the team,
41:18
Brandon Raines: right?
41:18
Devon Morris: So what do you do when the leader is the gap?
41:30
Brandon Raines: That's tough. It's really tough. One of the
41:33
things that one of the things that I try really, really hard
41:38
is developing a relationship with that leader, in order for
41:43
me to get to the point where you know we can have the convers, we
41:46
can have the real conversations about can I be a mirror for you?
41:51
You know, can I hold up a mirror in front of you and give you
41:54
some observations of what I see? You not agree with me, but we
41:59
need to at least get to the point where we can have that
42:01
conversation, and you you think about it, and perhaps even get
42:05
to the point again, stolen kind of thing. This is my horse
42:09
training coming out. Is what's the 2% truth? If you don't if
42:12
you don't think I'm 100% true, could you even consider that I
42:16
might be 2% true about something? Did we get some
42:22
answers?
42:26
Devon Morris: I absolutely love that. I I agree with you, and I
42:29
would say to you, it's probably the same thing that that I'm
42:32
doing is I'm getting to know the leader, you know, and and
42:38
building that really truly transparent. I shoot from the
42:43
hip, you know. So I'm a straight shooter. So people, you know,
42:47
kind of lean into that honesty and they latch onto it. And I'm
42:53
always going to be really, truly transparent and shoot from the
42:56
hip. So it's going to be sometimes a little bit rough,
43:00
but it's going to be honest, right? It's not going to be
43:01
anything in negative kind of way. But yeah, yeah, yeah. It's
43:06
tough when it's the leader that's the problem. Like it can
43:09
be really tough, right?
43:12
Brandon Raines: And I think that's a real superpower for
43:14
you, Devon. Like you have that ability of being really honest
43:18
with folks, and people really respond to it, and I think for
43:21
leaders in particular, they look for that, right? They need it.
43:25
This is why you get hired, right? Is give give it to me,
43:29
tell me, right? Like let's have this real conversation. So yeah,
43:34
yeah, I think that ability to cut right through that is is a
43:36
real superpower for you.
43:38
Devon Morris: Yeah, and and that um, it it does mean I don't get
43:43
all the big big contracts like the big gigantic boys out lie
43:47
about things, but hey, I'd rather live on my honesty and
43:51
come back another day. You know, when you need something else,
43:54
right? So I think that's good. So then here's the deal, right?
43:57
So what what I don't want is as I don't want this to be all
44:01
about complaining and talking about problems. We diagnose some
44:04
things. So then, let's kind of turn. What changes once they
44:10
start seeing things, seeing it in the right kind of way, right?
44:15
What happens in a leader when That diagnosis, the mirroring,
44:24
right, finally lands. Yeah.
44:30
Brandon Raines: So a couple of things. One is again, I go back
44:32
to looking at listening to tone, listening to body language. So
44:37
what I start to see is people start coming in with their chest
44:41
up, you know, with their head up, I see smiles more often
44:45
because it's like, all right, this is a better place to come
44:47
into every day because everybody wants to do that. Again, we
44:50
talked about that before, right? At the top, is you want to come
44:54
into work and feel good? You don't want to come into work or
44:56
like, oh my god, here's another day.
45:00
Devon Morris: Very true.
45:02
Brandon Raines: Yeah, yeah. And you want to look around and go,
45:04
all right, I don't need this to be a family. I don't need these
45:07
to be my best friends. But I would like to work with people
45:10
every single day that I can trust. You know, that I know
45:13
will do a good job. That will try as hard as they can. That
45:17
will still have. You know, there will still be some things where
45:21
we we we don't do it as planned. We fail. We learn together. We
45:25
keep going. So I tend to see the body language change. I tend to
45:30
hear the tones change, and then the data supports it. The data
45:34
of what the team actually does supports it. I often I often
45:40
will say, "Hey, I feel like I'm successful if you get promoted.
45:44
So you get promoted, fantastic.
45:49
Devon Morris: You you know one of one, but but the the the
45:51
thing for you that is different in saying that, and I can say
45:56
that I can say that because I'm the same way in many ways, I'm
46:05
I'm making sure you understand I'm not a threat. You know,
46:09
yeah. I want to see. You know, I feel like there is a big enough
46:15
planet for us to exist in, and and us all to get everything
46:20
that we desire, right? And so, whatever it is that's out there
46:25
for you, I don't have to be mad because you achieved it or
46:29
you're working to get it. And what can I do to help you get
46:32
there? Like, I like when you say that because when you do that
46:35
for people, man, they will run through brick walls for you.
46:42
Brandon Raines: Yeah, absolutely. You know, a big goal
46:47
for me is to make it better. Like I first started doing, I
46:50
first started getting into coaching, honestly, kicking and
46:53
screaming because true, my my true nature is to be techy, to
46:58
be a developer. That's like that stuff still plays a huge role
47:02
even in my coaching, and part of a big part of impetus for me
47:05
coaching is I wanted to make the world a little bit better for
47:09
software development because I experienced the suck, right?
47:12
Like this has got to be better, and if I can contribute in a way
47:17
to make this better for other individuals, teams, I'm. I'll do
47:23
it. I'll do it. I'll try. I'll try at least.
47:27
Devon Morris: Yeah, no, I, I, I agree with that. You know, it's
47:32
just a. I'm, I'm an introvert with all all extroverted facets,
47:39
right? So for most people, I don't look like an introvert at
47:43
all, but they don't see me when I check out, right? So it's just
47:46
one of those things where I completely understand and I
47:50
really get that nature because it's something that I deal with
47:54
right on a regular basis. So then, when you when you think
48:00
about this this turning of the ship. What is the first thing
48:06
that they should do differently?
48:18
Brandon Raines: You know, I so want to give you a different
48:20
answer, but listen is really the answer.
48:28
Devon Morris: Yeah,
48:28
Brandon Raines: you know it really is. There's for me. I I
48:32
see this personally. I see this professionally. Is having this
48:37
ability to listen to someone to try at least to understand where
48:44
they're coming from, and then follow that up by a little bit
48:50
of curiosity.
48:51
Yeah,
48:54
I I've just seen it do wonders because as a really good friend
48:58
of mine often reminds me of, especially when I get
49:02
frustrated, is context is everything, and it explains a
49:07
many of behaviors. So when you understand the context around,
49:15
you know why somebody did something, what somebody did, it
49:20
opens up so many doors to so many things, and you will just
49:24
have these. Oh, that's why you did that. Yeah. Oh, I didn't
49:28
realize that. Oh, dude, that's not what we were trying to do.
49:32
Come on, let me let me be a little bit more clear about what
49:35
we were trying to do. Let's let's turn this around. Let's do
49:38
something different.
49:40
Devon Morris: Well, I I I love it, and and and I I love the
49:45
answer, even though it's repeated. It's not a problem
49:48
because I think it's the best answer. So, when I think about
49:51
that listening part, I really think about it as being the
49:54
smallest change that can produce the biggest shift, right?
49:57
Brandon Raines: Yeah.
49:58
Devon Morris: However. You mentioned things that come after
50:03
after listening, and one of the things that you mentioned,
50:08
because this takes some effort,
50:14
Brandon Raines: yeah,
50:14
Devon Morris: is curiosity,
50:16
Brandon Raines: yeah.
50:19
Devon Morris: What is an example that you can give us of moving
50:25
from that listening to being curious.
50:34
Brandon Raines: You mean like a real life story or an example of
50:37
how to get to be curious?
50:39
Devon Morris: I'd rather go with it. I want to go with both,
50:42
right? Let's start off with a short story. What do you got?
50:44
Whatever. Start off with a story, and then what the nugget
50:48
that's in there is what I want to talk about.
50:52
Brandon Raines: Yeah. Hmm. So here's where I often, and and
51:04
maybe this fits in with the theme too of what we're talking
51:07
about is I will often hear from leaders. I remember at least one
51:13
leader saying, "Hey, we're not moving fast enough, and I I ask,
51:19
"Well, what does fast enough mean? And they were saying,
51:23
"Well, I we haven't we haven't actually delivered anything in a
51:27
few months. And when I asked the team, "Hey, what what do you all
51:32
think we've delivered? and they said, "Hey, we actually
51:35
delivered a few things that were that maintained the system.
51:39
Devon Morris: Yeah,
51:40
Brandon Raines: and I don't think the leader understood that
51:42
they didn't know that, and they didn't know that these a couple
51:46
of these maintenance items, if if they didn't do that, they
51:50
would have produced gigantic security holes. Yeah. It one it
51:56
was a license that was expiring, and if that license had expired,
52:00
it would have crippled the entire system,
52:02
Devon Morris: yeah.
52:03
Brandon Raines: And but but the team didn't really explain that
52:06
stuff with clarity, and so just being a little curious and
52:12
asking like the one more question of what do you all
52:16
think has been delivered at the team side, and then having an
52:20
understanding from the leader, what what does delivery mean?
52:24
What does releases? What are those things? I think it just
52:27
opens up the door to have some understanding, and then again,
52:30
pulling those conversations together so they can have those
52:33
conversations together. It was a lot of aha moments for them. So
52:38
I think that's the for me the the technique is asking the the
52:42
secondary question, combined with having a little bit of
52:47
courage. This is a this is a practice for me. Yeah, is right.
52:53
This is this is the the good old Southern boy in me who always
52:58
wants to be polite.
53:00
Devon Morris: Yeah,
53:01
Brandon Raines: doesn't want to offend, but has to really muster
53:04
up the courage to be able to say, "Hey, don't make
53:08
assumptions here. Ask the question, and it's okay if the
53:13
person in front of you goes, 'I don't either. I don't understand
53:18
your question, or that might not be the right question. It's
53:22
okay. You'll figure out the better question after that. But
53:26
you've learned so much by hearing that. But more more
53:29
often than not, it's the right question, and usually the
53:34
response is, "Oh wow, that's a good question. Let me think
53:37
about it, and it opens up so many doors.
53:40
Devon Morris: You know, man. Let me tell you. This is this is
53:42
crazy because I'm thinking about what you just said, right? And I
53:47
have been with clients, with teams, and my way to start off
53:55
that curiosity has been at times. That's stupid. And then
54:03
the question comes after that, and I get just lots of
54:07
information, right? I can't do with everybody, right? Because
54:10
some people be totally destroyed, right? But literally,
54:13
it's like, okay, that's really dumb. That doesn't make any
54:15
sense. So here's the question, and then I get way more out of
54:20
them, because I just took away all. I guess the professional
54:24
courtesy. So that curiosity thing, though, man, is amazing.
54:29
It's like the best way that I can phrase it up to just take it
54:33
out of the work world for just a second, right? Understanding
54:40
people who have a different sexual identity than myself.
54:47
Boom! If you don't understand it, if you don't understand what
54:51
that's about, if you would use a little bit of curiosity to learn
54:56
more about that, I remember when um. When I was at an
55:01
organization and I first started working with people from India,
55:05
and one of the things that I didn't understand was why they
55:11
were acting the way that they were acting. So I started
55:15
learning about the culture, curiosity, asking them
55:17
questions, right? The caste system, those kind of things,
55:21
and it helped me tremendously when I spent a lot of time
55:25
there, right? So you know, it's like okay, I see a guy that's
55:29
standing in the bathroom the entire time we're in this
55:32
building. Well, he was an untouchable. Understanding that
55:37
was important, but how do you understand that if you don't
55:39
have any curiosity, right? So, I, I, I'm with you, man. I'm
55:45
with you. I'm with you completely. So then, here's the
55:48
here's the question. So, what do leaders do at the moment that
56:00
there's a setback, even if it's small.
56:09
Brandon Raines: Figure out what they could do better to
56:12
articulate the issue better, and then again, it really it comes
56:17
back to, hey, here was a setback. Let's acknowledge that.
56:23
Let's all acknowledge that this was a setback. Here's why it was
56:27
a setback. Let's figure out. Let's figure out together why
56:32
why it was a setback. What should we do differently next
56:35
time? Like for me, those are the steps.
56:38
Devon Morris: Yeah. No. Identify
56:39
Brandon Raines: it. Acknowledge it. Delve into why. Now let's
56:43
figure out what should we do differently.
56:45
Devon Morris: Not as true gap analysis, right? So I we love
56:49
that. So then, then in a lot of these situations, there are
56:53
leaders who have messed up already when it comes to that
56:58
moment and that setback has happened, or they messed up
57:01
because they didn't diagnose the team appropriately. How do you
57:06
rebuild a team's trust after things have gone wrong? And and
57:12
you're the blank. You're part of the blank.
57:15
Brandon Raines: I think you you start first with acknowledging
57:17
that is my bad, and here's why it's my bad. Like, don't just
57:25
don't don't just say my bad because it can come off as lip
57:28
service sometimes, right? Like, like be earnest with it and say
57:31
why. Here's why. Here's what I would do differently next time.
57:35
Here's where I need your help for next time. I think showing a
57:40
little bit of vulnerability for leaders-it's a-it's a modeling
57:44
thing too. Because what happens when when leaders model the
57:48
vulnerability, then it makes it safer for everybody else. So
57:53
that when, because everybody's going to make a mistake, whether
57:56
or not you're an individual on the team or the team as a whole,
58:00
a mistake is going to happen. It's inevitable.
58:04
Devon Morris: Yes.
58:04
Brandon Raines: And so I think the question becomes: When those
58:07
mistakes happen, what is our response versus reaction around
58:11
it? And I have seen that the more healthy thing is to be able
58:15
to say to first of all fess up to it and say, "Hey, I made a
58:18
mistake. Here's what happened.
58:22
Devon Morris: I mean, if you if you don't, how do you really
58:26
start to repair it?
58:28
Brandon Raines: Yeah, exactly. I will tell you one of the things
58:30
that drives me nuts are the fake apologies. The "I'm sorry if I
58:36
offended you" apologies.
58:42
Devon Morris: Yeah, that that that that that that's just like
58:44
let me just pack up and go home today because this this is not
58:47
gonna go right. That's keeping me. You're gonna
58:50
Brandon Raines: reveal to the world if you want to drive me
58:52
nuts. Nothing happens. Apologize that way.
58:58
Devon Morris: Yeah, that that that you know I have these reset
59:00
moments, man, and when I have a reset moment, everything is not
59:03
going right during the day. I just got to go home and go to
59:05
bed, and then wake up the next day and just kind of start over
59:08
like I'm in the Matrix or something. So that's always the
59:11
case for me, man. So realistically, that's really all
59:16
the questions I really have. But I'm gonna ask you a final
59:19
question as we start to close the show out, right? What would
59:25
you tell a leader whose team is behind right now and knows it?
59:39
Brandon Raines: I would tell them have a have a little self
59:43
exploration first. Have I articulated to the team what the
59:49
goals are and what success looks like? Have I positioned the team
59:55
in a successful way? Do I have? Are there are there really.
1:00:00
Truly, the skill sets needed for the team to be successful with
1:00:05
the goals that that I just set and articulated. And if the
1:00:09
answers to those things are no, you you have your start starter
1:00:13
list for your homework to do.
1:00:16
Devon Morris: I think that's sage advice, and so I agree with
1:00:21
you completely, and that's really a good place for us to
1:00:25
kind of start to shut this thing down. So here's the deal: where
1:00:30
should people find you,
1:00:38
Brandon Raines: Brandon? For some reason, that "We're in the
1:00:39
Waldo" song is. I think the best way to reach me is is LinkedIn.
1:00:49
LinkedIn. I am fairly active on LinkedIn. I think I respond
1:00:54
pretty pretty well there. So if anybody's looking for me, look
1:00:58
look for me on LinkedIn. That's probably the best way to do it
1:01:00
now,
1:01:01
Devon Morris: okay? Yeah, no. LinkedIn is a way to reach out
1:01:03
to you, that's for sure. And then, is there anything's coming
1:01:08
up for you that you would like to talk to the audience about?
1:01:15
Oh,
1:01:15
Brandon Raines: I could go on a long tirade about car racing and
1:01:19
stuff, but I guess more germane to this particular topic. I
1:01:24
think what I'm looking forward to is figuring out what is my
1:01:28
next learning opportunity. You know, I I usually take this time
1:01:32
right now to figure out. Okay, the the year's kind of ending,
1:01:36
another year's kind of starting. Where else do I want to go off
1:01:40
and and learn some stuff. So you know, I guess I'm asking. You
1:01:44
know, fill me up. Tell me what. That's that's what I'm looking
1:01:48
forward to. I'm looking forward to if there are any other
1:01:53
speaking opportunities, certainly that you and I can do
1:01:55
together. Yeah. Oh, I am very much looking forward to that. So
1:02:01
yeah, I think that's I think that's a big. In
1:02:03
Devon Morris: terms of learning, one of the ways people can learn
1:02:06
is by securing one of your books. So, can you tell the
1:02:11
audience your books?
1:02:14
Brandon Raines: Well, I I will tell I will I will throw this
1:02:18
out there on LinkedIn on LinkedIn Learning, I'm actually
1:02:22
an instructor there, and so you can look me up. There is, there
1:02:28
is. I may look a little different, so forgive me on that
1:02:30
one. But the video is called "Characteristics of a Great
1:02:34
Scrum Master. Check it out. Tell me what you think. I'd love to
1:02:40
do a part two to that someday and get get get that up on
1:02:43
LinkedIn, LinkedIn Learning, or somewhere else. But I'd love for
1:02:47
you all to take a look at that and tell me what you think.
1:02:49
Devon Morris: You should just do a part two anyway, man. Do a
1:02:53
part two anyway, right? Just do a part two anyway, anyway, and
1:02:57
just stream in a lot of that additional coaching stuff, a lot
1:03:01
of the sage advice that you brought us here. So I will say
1:03:04
to you, Brandon, this was an amazing conversation, brother. I
1:03:10
couldn't thank you enough, man. Like that, like literally, like
1:03:15
today is the day we're recording this is on the third. It was
1:03:20
August the eighth when we actually did our presentation,
1:03:23
so we haven't even had 30 days since we did our presentation.
1:03:26
So I'm still riding high because of that. We talked about it. You
1:03:29
are still riding high because of that. And one of the things I
1:03:32
will tell you all in terms of the audience is there's a magic
1:03:37
to having peers, like real true peers, people who you respect,
1:03:44
and you can respect them from afar. But when you get an
1:03:48
opportunity to do something with a peer, I can't name you
1:03:54
something more magical. I can't. And Brandon is a peer. I
1:04:02
appreciate you, man. Hats off to you. Thank you for joining us.
1:04:08
Where every Tuesday and Thursday we work toward bridging the gap
1:04:13
for teams that are behind.