Latest / Recruiting Evolution / FDE+ Virtual Event | The Future of Recruiting in a Changing Landscape: Expert Panel Discussion
Transcript
- Danny Cahill [00:00:00]: The problem is most of the jobs we're calling them about are no better than the one they have. So it really comes down to you don't have a compelling enough rate. You're trying to say to a candidate, majority of recruiters out there, no offense, but the majority of you are saying, how would you like to do exactly what you're doing somewhere else so I can make money? And the answer, amazingly, is no, I don't, I don't want to do that. But if I can say, as JT said, I don't know much about you, let's get to know each other and then if there's a search that I think is worth talking about, we'll do that. Kortney Harmon [00:00:30]: Hey, guys. Kortney Harmon, host of FDE. We're bringing you a special series of episodes called FDE. Those are going to be highlights from a recent virtual conference where hundreds of you joined us for an incredible event focused on boosting revenue for 2025. Each of these sessions is packed with valuable insights, expert discussions, and actionable strategies to help you drive growth in your business. Whether you missed the live event or want to revisit e each session, we've got you covered. We're going to drop each of these 10 live events to wrap up our year and kick off the new year. Right. Kortney Harmon [00:01:12]: So let's dive into today's session and uncover the key takeaways that will propel your success in the coming year. Stay tuned and let's dive in. Super excited to have everyone here. And again, the virtual conference is something new that we haven't done. We've kind of. I actually have had two of the four of you on the podcast in the past. So I've had Chris and Michelle on the podcast in the past and we're going to kind of talk and take a deep dive into what you've done in 2024, how you're transitioning for 2025. I know you guys don't have crystal balls, but what you're seeing, what you anticipate. Kortney Harmon [00:01:50]: So there's no better way to close out this conference. You guys are truly one of the best. I may be partial since it's our group panel, but this isn't just another industry panel. It's forward thinking. It's how fundamentally we're reimagining our approaches, whether it's disruptions, challenges, or just the changing evolution techscape. I have four top tier leaders here in our space and I can't wait to hear what they have to share because I have no idea. I have no idea what they're going to say. So I'm super excited. Kortney Harmon [00:02:18]: With that being said, I'm going to let each of you introduce yourself. Whenever you introduce yourself, I just want you to tell our listeners the space that you're recruiting in or the space that you play in, what type of staffing recruiting you do and your role within the organization. So if that's great, I'm looking forward to. Danny, you're off mute. I want to start with you. Danny Cahill [00:02:38]: Sure. Danny Cahill [00:02:39]: So, long story short, only job I've ever had, I built one of the largest search firms in the country. We have a variety of practice areas at this point and both the headquarters in Connecticut and remote offices all over the country, four Pinnacle members work for me. I also own Accordant Danny which is the largest training and development company in the recruiting space. And I run both of those all day, every day. Kortney Harmon [00:03:03]: No better person to talk all things staffing, recruiting. So thank you Danny for joining us. Michelle, give us your insight. Who are you, what do you do, where are you from? Michele Massaro [00:03:11]: Sure. I am Michelle Massaro, Chief operating officer of Abacus Corporation. We are an 80 year young company, been going strong since 1944. Our recruiting is across verticals but heavy in the light industrial space. So I've only had two jobs in staffing in the 34 years, so love it. Kortney Harmon [00:03:33]: Thank you. Chris, you're next. Chris Allaire [00:03:35]: Chris Allaire, I'm founder CEO of Verity. We are technology centric, so operating the teams within technology between software, engineering, security, DevOps, data that analytics, you know, all the whole data space. I've started A Verity almost 11 years ago, so I'm off my dining room table with a laptop now. We are, we've kind of dominated the New York City market obviously when things went remote about four plus years ago. Predominantly 90% of our business is still Manhattan based. But the remote culture these days, you know, people are a little bit of everywhere. So personally I've done nothing but technology with staffing for over 25 years on a national level from Boston, San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York, somewhere in the middle I'm probably missing, but that's my career. Kortney Harmon [00:04:21]: Love it. Thank you. And jt. JT Westendorf [00:04:23]: Yes. JT Westendorf [00:04:23]: Hello everyone. JT Westendorf [00:04:24]: My name is JT Wessendorf. I'm the president of Angot Search Group. We are based in Rochester, Michigan, just outside of Detroit. JT Westendorf [00:04:30]: Goliath. JT Westendorf [00:04:31]: Haven't had an opportunity to say that in my lifetime but it's a good place to be here right now. But Angot Search Group, we have been around since 1981, so 43 years now. We have 29 staff right now. Unfortunately have two retirements coming up here by the end of the year. So we'll be down to 27. Predominantly recruit and financial services. It's about three quarters of our revenue. I do have employees in eight states and that cover. JT Westendorf [00:04:54]: In addition to financial services, we also have a group that works in automotive and legal and energy. My desk is financial services. I'm still recruiting on a desk and I took over as president two years ago. Kortney Harmon [00:05:04]: Amazing. Thank you all for the introductions. I'm we'll go round robin. I would love for this to be a conversation, so feel free to jump in on anyone's answers that you hear. But 2024 has been a really different year for a lot of us. Michelle and Chris, I actually had both you on the podcast and your insights on Michelle. You were very early on in the year. Talk to me about 2024. Kortney Harmon [00:05:27]: Maybe. What adaptations did you have to do for the year of 2024 in this changing landscape? Did you have to like pivot in any way compared to the previous years past that lovely Covid era? Michelle, I'm going to start with you and then anybody else can jump in from there. Michele Massaro [00:05:42]: 2024 has been an interesting year. We didn't have a crystal ball to know what was going to happen. I think kind of felt last year was certainly we came off of COVID pretty hard in 23 and I think that redefining ourselves really was kind of the drive this year. Evolving, changing, shifting strategies. We did a lot of that, focused really on kind of the clients initiatives a lot. We saw a lot of our clients go through, we call vendor consolidation efforts. So we want to be, you know, a vital part of that. So really looked at that, those strategies to make sure that we had a seat at the table with some of our seasoned customers. Michele Massaro [00:06:22]: And you know, we are and I forgot we are national kind of we're in 25 states now. So we had different issues and challenges in different markets too. We saw a little bit of a recovery on the east coast with some of our clients, but we still see things. We're a little lethargic certainly as you move west geographically, we solve some challenges there. But yeah, it's been an interesting year and I know you guys feel probably the same way. Kortney Harmon [00:06:47]: Anyone else? Chris Allaire [00:06:48]: Yeah, I've picked up clients in Mexico, so I'm in the tech sector. It has been the last two years have been interesting. I haven't seen anything like this since the dot com burst. But it's been really interesting though because one of the things I've never done before. We have a lot of clients who are based in New York or based in the US we found them just closing offices and building their brands in Mexico City. So most of the CTOs and VPs of engineering that I'm associated with were still on site in New York but now hiring in Mexico. So believe it or not, I filled a lot of positions this year in Ciudad de Mexico. So I am well versed now in the Mexican cultures down there. Chris Allaire [00:07:27]: So that's definitely. I've seen a lot of growth in Latin America. I've seen a lot of growth in Mexico City. We've always kind of focused on contract staffing as much as we can, probably much like everybody else here. However, as a full desk company, we do full time, we do contingent, we do retain, we do contract. And you're kind of unfortunately, unfortunately at the beck and call of your clients when they need to hire full time. Danny Cahill [00:07:48]: People, you know, you got to be. Chris Allaire [00:07:49]: Able to service them, but also when they're hiring contractors. And what we've seen in the last couple years, but especially this year, is probably about 90% of our revenue, 90% of our business spend high level contractors, which has been fantastic. So those are the couple of major innovations that we've the shifts and the changes that we've seen this year so far. Kortney Harmon [00:08:06]: Danny, you want to add to that? Danny Cahill [00:08:07]: Yeah, oh, sure. Yeah. I think it's when people say it's been an interesting year, that's code for crappy for most people. But for us, this all happened in 23. I 100% agree with Michelle. There was this hangover from 21 and 22, but for me it wasn't. What innovative approach is. Well, here's the innovative approach. Danny Cahill [00:08:27]: Get over yourself. Get back to reality. 21 and 22 never happened before. There's never another pandemic. It'll never happen again. It was overheated. People had PPP money. It was not real. Danny Cahill [00:08:41]: People stopped doing original prospecting and business development. They kidded themselves that nobody talks on the phone anymore, which is silly. So when we got slapped in 23 and when I say slapped, we were down 19% off of our 22, which was our best year in 40 years. We're a direct hire executive search firm. But I saw I had 500 firms in my training company according to Danny, and they were down 50 to 60% and letting people go and, you know, struggling to make payroll and all that. So we were blessed in that way. But we were still a bunch of entitled spoiled brats who were sick of the fact that people weren't calling this anymore. So, you know, our native approach was to get over ourselves, get on the phone, call people that don't know you and interrupt their day because that's how you got here and that's how you'll stay here. Danny Cahill [00:09:34]: And 24 has been a really good year for us. In fact, October was our biggest month since 21. Danny Cahill [00:09:40]: Yeah, I think for us too. Just like Danny, 2022 was a record year for us. This is our 43rd year. 2024 is another record year for us. It really came back to going back to basics. All the work was coming in and that, you know, I was a little concerned in first part of the year. We had a lot of work at the end of the year and first quarter, oh my God, where's, you know. But it's getting back to the basics, getting on the phone because everyone's, you know, phone. Danny Cahill [00:10:05]: When I got in this business 18 years ago, phone probably batted lead off, right? You had to be on the phone three, four hours a day making 100 calls a day. Now it's, you still got to get on the phone. It may not bad lead off, but it's getting back to the basics. You know, we've had some folks have had some success handwriting cards to prospects and you know, writing out a card, maybe getting it printed, but handwrite the address on it. And that served some folks well too. Yeah, it's just interesting. You're competing for people's time, right? And how are you going to get their attention? Because we're, you know, all of us on this call and many on the feed today, they're getting emails from people who want to sell you this, sell you that, and you're buying for attention. How do we get that? You know, phone calls, one old school handwriting cards has been working for us and, but it's been, you know, we're up 22% in our billings and 20 in cash in through today. Danny Cahill [00:10:49]: So it's been a great year for us. Kortney Harmon [00:10:51]: Yeah, that's amazing. Now, anybody who's listening, if you have additional questions, you can put them in the chat. Danny, I love that you said we were spoiled little brats because of how business has been. And honestly, it comes down to those basics that people are like, well, I just don't want to do that anymore. I don't want to work that hard anymore. I didn't have to work that hard, that hard anymore. So I love that you hit that nail on the head. Thank you. Danny Cahill [00:11:14]: Documented too, because I mean, I get right, like six, seven years ago when people first started to sell in LinkedIn, I would get maybe 10 or 12 email messages a week trying to sell me something, and then I would get a dozen phone calls. Now I get 200 emails a week trying to sell me something and no phone calls. So remarkably, the phone has become a novelty item. And our connect rates in 2018 were about 12%. So it was depressing. You know, you make 100 calls, you get 11 people on the phone and people would say, let me try email marketing. And now wildly Me it's about 25% for clients and almost 50% for candidates because nobody's calling them. So the phone has become the innovative approach, which is hilarious to me since it's the oldest trick in the book. Kortney Harmon [00:12:07]: I love that. So let's kind of switch gears. Talk about specific examples that your company has used to transform revenue generation. And it may not be transformation and something new in response to the market challenges. It may be just getting back on the phone. Is there anything else that you're like, encouraging your teams to do? Specific example wise beyond the phone? Danny Cahill [00:12:28]: I think for us as a firm, we've had some opportunities to do some M and A. You know, we've acquired a couple of offices within our network. You know, small, you know, a couple desk offices. But we did one beginning of last year, one in the middle of last year, and you know, neither 24 all together here, that's added 800 to the date, about 845,000 in revenue for us. And we weren't seeking while we had the opportunities. So that's one thing from a growth perspective and that we've taken advantage of. And it's worked out. We did make a hire through one of our those acquisitions to work underneath. Danny Cahill [00:12:59]: One of those groups. Danny Cahill [00:13:00]: And that's paid off for us as well too. Michele Massaro [00:13:02]: I mean, I, I think touched on is the sales effort, right? I think really I would say 2024 to define it be a rebound year. Right. So we got back to some of the basis as Danny described, getting on the calls, you know, reaching out to people. When you go back, I mean, that is the recipe for success, right? When you are consistent and you're reaching out to customers and like I mentioned, the supplier consolidation initiatives we saw this year having these relationships and going back and saying, look, you know, you, you're recovering from the craziness of the last few years. How can we be part of that equation? Right? How do we have a seat at the table and help you with that, and I think it's having these discussions and not being afraid of having discussions with customers and potential customers that are framed around like, okay, how can we move this forward together? And that has been really successful for us. So it has been an interesting year, but not an unsuccessful year. You know, we've seen an increase recovery and with customers, economic conditions are getting a little bit more normal. And as a result of that, you know, we're seeing stability. Michele Massaro [00:14:05]: And I think that you'll continue to see that. And the other thing too is for us, we're in light industrial space, heavy in, that is, you know, it's a changing environment where we're seeing more technology come in. Robotics and working on ways to have our workforce work in parallel with the technology has been very interesting this year. So we've actually established some training initiatives, really focused on training, internal training and training our workforce. So that's been an interesting strategy. That's, we've seen some good success with that. So that's just kind of my take on initiatives for this year. Chris Allaire [00:14:38]: Yeah, you know, I find it interesting that, like, the innovative and new transformation is to remain, to talk to people. Kortney Harmon [00:14:45]: Yeah. Chris Allaire [00:14:45]: And this year is really proven. I know we'll probably talk on this a little later, but, you know, this year's really proven that human connection is the most important thing that's out there. And I think for all those of us who've been in the industry for a long time, you've always known that. But your ability to connect with people at a human level. This year, I think has been more important than anything else because of all the AI generated stuff, you know, you have no idea what's real, what's fake. You know, we're in situations, we have, you know, fake candidates. And I've, you know, I've been ghosted before and all that crap before in the past, but I've never seen something like really what's going on out there. So understanding that the C suite executives, whether CTOs or VPs and whoever your audience is, they've been going through the same thing that we're going through. Chris Allaire [00:15:24]: I've talked to a guy, cto and he's laid off pretty much most of staff down to a skeleton. True. To make the numbers work, but with that, no new products, no new innovations, Very frustrating. And you can hear the frustration in their voice. It's like, we want to move forward. We're ready to build some products, we're ready to get out there, we're ready to do some new things. And although they had to lay off X number of people this year to make the numbers work. They're already putting in their numbers for next year to rehire that staff. Chris Allaire [00:15:52]: So I have found that just by having a level of empathy with them, saying like, you know, we're all on this together. There's nobody that's been this huge outlier, like, dude, I'm killing it. I don't know what you're talking about. Like, we've all done better now than we did last year, I would assume. But no, really being able to talk to people about what I'm going through, you know, because there's a lot of people I've known for a long time and it's like, dude, it sucks this year. It's been brutal. Like last two years been brutal. And I'm sure it's been brutal for you. Chris Allaire [00:16:20]: You guys haven't done anything, how are you doing? And then you start to have these conversations with people and they remember that you know what, you're a human, you're a good dude. And like I'm a human. You know what? This is what it's all about. So the transformation has really been about empathy, like real human relationships. And honestly, a lot of times then, you know, they can afford me or not. I've been giving them data sets to help them with their searches. Like, listen, if you do this, this is what you've got sitting in front of, you know, 650 applicants. These are the steps to process so long it's going to take. Chris Allaire [00:16:56]: If you have seven jobs to fill at this rate, think about that place that you should run as places you should be finding people. So I've just been trying to figure out ways to just add value to them and knowing that they're going to come back to me. And kind of same thing someone said about October. We've done what, nine placements in the last less than six weeks and kind of looked at, it was like, wow, we're pumping again. We're off and running here. You know, so it's been educational, you know, for the most part, figuring out a way to, you know, navigate old school and new school methodologies. Kortney Harmon [00:17:30]: Okay, you mentioned technology, we talked human touch. Obviously this is a double edged sword, but talk to me about what technologies your organizations are implementing, but really just enhancing your process. You know, we've all heard the concept of a recruiter using AI will replace those that aren't. But there are the lazy recruiters that just go put it into a generative piece and just push it out. And I'M sure you're getting them as well as I am. They're saying they've met in my hometown at a restaurant that doesn't exist. And it's almost a detriment in a way if we're not using it the right way. So let's talk about technologies. Kortney Harmon [00:18:05]: How are your teams using it? These digital tools to enhance your processes, not replace them. Danny Cahill [00:18:11]: So I've got kind of a love hate relationship with technology. It's year to year, our tech stack gets more and more expensive. It's usually about 7 to 8% of our revenue, and yet I don't see a corresponding increase in activity because of the tech stack. Nothing makes me angrier than when I ask a recruiter if he knows the password to this tool and he has no idea before that he loved the tool when they did the demo for me. Some of my training clients, I tell them, you're paying way too much for technology you're not using, and you'd be much better off if you got rid of a lot of it. And, you know, on a dark day, I'd be like, if I had a CRM and a phone and my own wits, I could make placements without LinkedIn recruiter who I pay $300,000 a year to, but I have to give the devil's due to, right? So we use transcription technology, which has helped me help recruiters close deals. You know what's clear to me after all these years is if a recruiter comes in my office and says, boss, let me tell you about this situation. Whatever he or she says next is not what they actually said on the phone, but what they wish they said on the phone and don't want to look bad telling me where. Danny Cahill [00:19:24]: Now transcription technology, they send me the call, and I can go to 13 minutes and 21 seconds into the call and see exactly what they said. It'll tell me, you know, John said 14 times he uses filler words 71% of the time. I have one recruiter who's famous for talking too much, and he says, I don't talk that much. Now I can show my transcription technology. This was a job intake and you're talking 81% of the time and you're not the one paying the fee. And so the transcription technology has enabled me to save time and help close deals, help increase my training. So that's a miracle for me. I love that. Danny Cahill [00:20:05]: At the same time, ChatGPT, I think 4.0, which I pay for for all my people, it's not very good. Like You, Kortney. I can see a generative chat message coming, you know, 10 miles away. They're lame, they're obvious, they're formal, they're stiff. And that tells, I think you lose respect because then I don't think people think you took the time to actually try to communicate with them, which is so important, as Chris is saying. But it's amazing for a rookie because let's face it, when I hire a rookie, maybe they've got some sales experience. They've never been a recruiter and they certainly never been a recruiter in the med device market. So they get on the phone with a med device client, they don't know what they're talking about. Danny Cahill [00:20:45]: Ten years ago they're going to look stupid and not get that business. Now when the guy says did you have any quality control engineers with blah blah blah experience? I go to chat, give me a job description of a quality engineer with blah blah blah experience and in four seconds I'm talking to the client sounding really smart. So I give the devil it's due. Like most technology things since I've been in the business, they're always super hyped. They never turn out to have the impact that people say and you know, monster in 97, LinkedIn in 2003, it's going to end the recruiting business as we know, it's going to replace us all and we're all going to be on the streets in four minutes. And ten years later you see a relatively minor change. So I can't speak for obviously things like low level contract staffing which I think is more exposed than high level executive search. But you know, we don't live in any sort of fear that AI really going to change the game in any real way. Danny Cahill [00:21:42]: Love it. Kortney Harmon [00:21:43]: Danny, the question was what transcription technology do you use? I'm sorry, what Transcription? Danny Cahill [00:21:50]: A cloud computing phone system. It's called Chorus AI but there's, you know, I'm just a vendor, I mean I pay them, I'm not in bed with them, but there's a tremendous amount of them. They're all pretty much the same, I gotta say. And they're not very expensive but they're seamless. And the interface, well with both our CRM and our, our email system. So it just gets sent to me, I go right to the call and it saves a lot of time. So for that I think that's worthwhile. Some sort of transcription technology. Kortney Harmon [00:22:16]: Love it. Thanks Danny. Anyone else? Chris, Michelle? Jt? Chris Allaire [00:22:19]: It's so nice. Personally, it's like the ability to make A job Description in about 15 seconds. Let's call right be. And I have a chronic add, so I'm all over the map. Like, so my higher growth. Like, I mean, like, if you saw my notes on job orders, it's hysterical. So now I can just take all of it, plug it into a system and say, hey, you know, this is my client. This is what they're doing. Chris Allaire [00:22:43]: Here are my notes for this job order. Can you make a friendly job description crafted towards, you know, this type of population? And then I can go through and I can touch it up, and then I can say, hey, can you make it sound a little bit more better, et cetera, et cetera, so you can tweak it. So once I started embracing that, I was like, wow, this is like, coming up with JD's is kind of fun. Danny Cahill [00:23:01]: So. Chris Allaire [00:23:01]: Which used to be like a half hour to 40 minutes of, like, dedicated sitting down. I don't know about anybody else, but I don't like typing. It's just not my thing. Most of the time, if I look up, it looks like a drunken monkey, what I was trying to write down, or I banged my head against the keyboard. So this makes things a lot easier. And then the other stuff that. It's really been nice on the back. A lot of the back office integrations have been great. Chris Allaire [00:23:25]: Between QuickBooks integrations into Google Sheets, into having forecasted, I could just put a date in now to a sheet that AI basically wrote for me, and it'll forecast out things for, like, the next six months that are just awesome. So there's a lot of back office stuff that I've really felt have been. Has really been beneficial. Danny Cahill [00:23:46]: Yeah, for us, I mean, it's all about efficiency. Right? I mean, there's been like, Danny, there's, you know, the reliance on technology, it's great, but it's getting back to the basics. And, you know, for us, and Kortney didn't pay me to say this, but we did go to Cree Lake this year, beginning of the year, and it's been a wonderful move for us. It integrates. We use RingCentral for our phone system. We have the Zoom and LinkedIn tools. And it's just been for at least working a desk myself, it's been a game changer for the efficiency that we've had. And as a leader, the reporting has been great for us compared to what we had. Danny Cahill [00:24:18]: So it's trying to get people to stay within the platform versus going bouncing here to Outlook to send a candidate right up to a client. You can do it all within the system and I think people have really bought into it here and I think that's helped. And just seeing their numbers right, you can see how many outbound calls they're making and it's an eye opener, you know, at least for me. And everyone can see the leaderboard and there's one guy in our office that's crushing it every day and it's motivating for me still. It's like I gotta beat Nick every day. But you don't want to be on the last and the leaderboard terms outbound call and that's what we're trying to get more activity and you can't just send a LinkedIn note and be done. You got to find, find, get creative. We've been doing a lot of text messaging which integrates with our phone system. Danny Cahill [00:24:59]: I've done more of that personally this year than I have in the years past. And so for us moving crelate's been real positive and there's some other tools that we were looking at Metaview and which I like so far as well. We're looking at that too. Kortney Harmon [00:25:13]: Michelle, anything to add? Michele Massaro [00:25:16]: So jt, we're right with you. We are right now in the implementing crelate. Right. So we are looking at from an efficiency perspective that was an important driver to make that decision. So we're going to be first quarter 2025 to be completely integrated, implemented and ready to roll. But really looking at it too as little bit of technology consolidation. Chris Allaire [00:25:37]: Right. Michele Massaro [00:25:38]: We don't need to have such a huge deck tech deck if we can have everything kind of put into kind of a more simple and I think we're looking at simple and starting with the integration and implementation has been looking at our processes to kind of simplify them as well. So looking at the business process and how that will flow into crelate has been really eye opening for us because we can look at efficiencies right there and so that's been helpful. So excited about that. This has been a long time coming for us. We've been evaluating technologies for about three years. So I'm excited to see where it goes. Very excited about it. Kortney Harmon [00:26:11]: I love it. There's been a few questions around tech so I do want to add from my perspective, even though I'm not running a desk anymore for me interactions. I know it sounds goofy. Video on LinkedIn has been huge for me and our team. Chris Allaire [00:26:25]: You know what, Kortney, I gotta jump in because I listened to one of your podcasts and I heard about talking about the LinkedIn video thing. And I was like, oh, that's cool. I'm gonna try it because I can now I can deliver a message, you know, with this. Right. As opposed to these things. And it's awesome. I gotta tell you, it's just like, no, it's really cool. Especially if you just want to say hi to somebody, let them know that you're thinking about them, you know, let them know that, hey, your name came across my desk. Chris Allaire [00:26:51]: I just wanted to reach out and say hi, see how things are going for you. You know, if I can ever help you out or if you need anything, just let me know, you know, hopefully see you soon. And they're getting this and I'm getting responses from people like, first of all, that was really neat. Second of all, like, dude, thanks for the shout out. Like, that was really cool and it's been fun. It's no right answers, but it's. I've really enjoyed it, so. And I, I got that off your podcast. Chris Allaire [00:27:12]: Thanks a bit. Kortney Harmon [00:27:13]: Well, thanks. I would much rather they just speak for a living, not type for a living. So the message comes off better for me that way. So I love that. Haresh, I have not ignored your message or your question. He asked, with all the technologies that are coming out, how can a smaller firm really compete with the bigger firms for board or CXO roles? Do you guys have any perspective on that? Any opinions? Danny Cahill [00:27:39]: I'm not trying to say the question Kortney's asking whether technology has a role in C level roles. Kortney Harmon [00:27:45]: I think, Haresh, if you want to clarify, with all these new technologies coming out across the board with agency sizes, how can the small ones differentiate themselves or be a part of the game or use them in a way for more scalability is my assumption in what he's writing here. Danny Cahill [00:28:00]: Right. So, I mean, that's more of our world. We fill a lot of C level roles and honestly, we get beat all the time by solopreneurs, one man jobs. And of course it's frustrating because, you know, we're trying to sell our size and our tenure and all the roles we fill and we lose to somebody who goes, I'm a specialist, I know this space. I have a relationship, as Chris pointed out earlier. Check my reference with this guy and this guy. They don't care what your technology is. They don't care where you are, they don't care what your pedigree is. Danny Cahill [00:28:34]: It's how many of these roles have you filled like this? And who can I talk to that knows your work? We get beat all the time by small firms who are specialists in their sub niche and know their world. So you can't get specific enough, you can't get specialist enough. But if you can and then you really know that niche, you're going to get a lot of those roles that someone like me gets beat out on and you're selling against our size. You can say, look, you can get hops and associates on this and yeah, they're big and they've been around a long time, but you're going to get 10% of their time. Whereas I will focus all my time on you because I only fill three of these a quarter. We get by these guys all the time. Absolutely. Can compete without all the splashy AI enhanced tools that get bigger firm can't afford. Danny Cahill [00:29:24]: Absolutely. Plus the executive search phase. You can make a really good case where you don't need all these AI enhanced tools because. And I'm generalizing here, but all these AI enhanced sourcing tools do is get you to the person you already know faster. So. Right. The fact that you get there a little bit slower when you put a C level search that's going to take four months anyways is kind of beside the point. So I would relax. Danny Cahill [00:29:51]: I really would. You'll be fine. Chris Allaire [00:29:52]: I'm not going. It's a who, you know, business. Danny Cahill [00:29:56]: Yeah. Chris Allaire [00:29:56]: I mean that's what really recruiting is. Right. If you really want to put. It's like, hey, I need to hire somebody. Who do you know? Hey, I'm looking for a job. Who do you know with one on? Hire me and your network. If your network is tight, if your network is close and you know your network and you've got contacts and someone says to me, I need a VP of ad tech or I need a VP of infrastructure. I'm already going like, you know what? I know three people off the top of my head. Chris Allaire [00:30:18]: Boom, boom, boom. Let me make a couple of phone calls. I should have some people for you by this afternoon, if not tomorrow, depending who's available. And if you have that because you're a little bit smaller and they're off the top of your head because you have an inch specialty, you're going to. Danny Cahill [00:30:31]: Do really, really well. Chris Allaire [00:30:32]: Because most of the time, you know, again, it's much like the real estate game. You know, a lot of the times you're not worried about what sign is in front of the house. You want the house. So at that point it's like, I want the best candidate for the job and I want them delivered. You know, I want them delivered to me. And then everything else out there is about process and service and that's how you separate yourself after the fact. But it's at the start of the game. It's who you know, it's what really matters. Danny Cahill [00:30:57]: Totally. Kortney Harmon [00:30:57]: I love it. All right, so VP asked about what kind of video messaging you use. I only use the LinkedIn service because I personally, as long as I'm connected to somebody, I can send them a video message. Does anybody have a video messaging software that they use? Danny Cahill [00:31:14]: I do hear a lot of good things about Hinterview from people in Pinnacle. There are people that use it and like it. Kortney Harmon [00:31:20]: Okay, amazing. And there was one other question about technology and then we're going to move on from that. Do you have any non traditional recruiting tools or anything that may be a traditional recruiting tool resource that you have found value in? Anybody have any non traditional recruiting tools that they come to mind? Because everyone just wants a tool. It's not the easy button, but they want another tool. Chris Allaire [00:31:44]: I have a pen and a piece of paper and I'm not kidding you with my A list and I keep them in front of me in a notebook so I constantly remember to reach out to them. I may have just dated myself a little bit over there, but this little non traditional tool is mighty sometimes. Don't overlook the power of the pen. Michele Massaro [00:32:06]: Is along with the phone. Right to the pen or the phone seem to be the tools that we're talking a lot about. Right. Chris Allaire [00:32:10]: Not. Michele Massaro [00:32:11]: Not complicated. Yeah. Danny Cahill [00:32:13]: And I don't know disqualifies. But you know, in 21 and 22 we stopped sending people to trade shows in their niches because they weren't trade shows or they were poorly attended. But since mid 23, all the trade shows in our niches are super big. Again, very well attempted. And so, you know, our people in our digital technology space or our med device space or insurance, you know, they go to a three day trade show and yeah, I got to put them up at a hotel and I got to pay for their flight and a little schmooze money. But there's three or four or five hundred or a thousand potential candidates wandering homes for three days. And we found it gets us business and a lot of candidates as well. So I have a six figure budget every year for trade shows that I had sort of let go of for two years and now it's full force. Danny Cahill [00:33:06]: I kind of echo what Danny, that for us, especially for our financial services practice, we attend a lot of trade shows, you know, a lot of state bank associations and there's just no, yeah, it's a time. And you can't just go to one inspect, hey, you know, it didn't work out. It's a long term play. It's a marathon, not a sprint. You got to be committed because at the end of the day, and Chris, you made it. It's all about relationships, all about the people, you know, and you find a conference that you have a thousand potential candidates, thousand potential hiring managers and you can shake their hand. You know, I've got five that I'm going to already next year and it's the same ones, but the more you go, the people will recognize that. I can't tell you how much business I've got and saying, hey, nice to see you again. Danny Cahill [00:33:45]: I appreciate you supporting the industry or the association. Let's do business together. It's worth the time and investment. Because you mentioned 100 calls, you might get 11 people on it. You go to one location for a couple days for us. And we've been doing that ever since I've been here. And we've expanded it as well too. So again, long term play, but certainly worth it. Michele Massaro [00:34:05]: We've seen it. I'm sitting in a Westin hotel right now in Nashville for a conference, for an industry conference for one of our customers, right. So it's, we've come here an industry we support. We've been a part of the association for five years now. And now we're at a point where we're actually, I'll be speaking tomorrow. So because it is a long play and you can't go into these types of associations or conferences, organizations with hey, I'm going to go get business or I'm going to get candidates. You have to go with what are you bringing to that industry, to that group and being an active part of it for a period of time, that's where you start to demonstrate your expertise, right. And that's where you'll see your biggest return. Michele Massaro [00:34:43]: So it's nice to get back into those conferences and trade shows which were dormant for a couple of years and it's come back full force. Danny Cahill [00:34:50]: I'll mention too, you know, Chris mentioned the power of the pen, right. I mentioned earlier some of us here writing cards out. I mean, how nice is it to get a card doing that now, right? Again, get the attention now. I just had somebody, we talk about getting all these LinkedIn notes and emails about trying to sell us stuff. I had somebody just send me a sleeve of Pro V Golf balls and got my attention. I Am a golfer and actually had my low. Our company's logo on it had a little message saying I'm not hiding or I'm not lost. Just hiding from J.T. Danny Cahill [00:35:20]: westendorf. Right. So I'm going to call him, you know, kind of a lead gen company. But he took the time and obviously an expense to sleep a pro V. So it's getting the attention and how many people are getting bombarded online? You know, so kind of the old school pen, phone and being in person. Michele Massaro [00:35:39]: In person, yeah. Danny Cahill [00:35:40]: That wouldn't be enough softballs for me, jt, I'm a half to send me considerably more go. Chris Allaire [00:35:46]: Yeah. Kortney Harmon [00:35:47]: We had a question from Rebecca and Rebecca, I don't know the industry that you're in, but she asked, do you have any recommended trade shows? I know it obviously depends on the niche in the industry, but do you guys have any? What trade shows are you attending in your space? Danny Cahill [00:36:01]: Well, you're right, it is very specific. I mean, you know, our health tech team is going to like the RCM show soon, which is revenue cycle management, which is a niche within health tech. There are huge trade shows for like insurance has. The RIM show is the biggest in the industry. I honestly vet it. Like I want to see the exhibitor list. I want to know how many people are going to be there. It's got to be at least 300. Danny Cahill [00:36:27]: I prefer 300 to 1,000. You find these are mostly at big cities like Vegas, like Orlando, like San Francisco. And I like that because that means they put money into it and it's going to be well attended. Usually you have to pay a registration fee. In the old days you can just walk the vendor hall. But now they really are making sure you've got to pay a registration fee in order to get in. But we have a very specific protocol where the three weeks before the show we've got a message that everybody uses. I'm going to be at the RCM show. Danny Cahill [00:36:58]: I'd love to meet you. If you're not going to be there, I'd love to be your eyes and ears at the show. What questions would you have that I can find out for you? And that builds in a follow up after if they're not at the show. So three weeks before we send out, are you going to be at the show? Can I help you? And the three weeks after you're following up after the show to talk about the conversation you had. So for us, JT said he does it super well and he's not sure. I'm like, he can't even tell you how much business he generated, but we track it. I mean, you know, our health tech team, it's about 20, 25% of our jobs a year can be traced back to that shaking of hand, that buying you a drink, that going to a session together, just sitting next to somebody and looking at each other's swag bag. I mean, we find it actually works. Kortney Harmon [00:37:44]: Now, I just need to know what your favorite piece of swag is so I can make sure ours is right next to you. Danny. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding, Michelle. Best trade shows. Which ones are you attending? Michele Massaro [00:37:53]: It depends on the industry you're going after. Right? So today I'm at a Heavy highway conference, right? So non traditional, probably doesn't fit for everybody, but we look very similar. Kind of the protocol has to be well attended. Who the players are going to be there, how many of your competitors are going to be there, right? So you want to try to limit the number of competitors that you're interacting with, right. Or you're competing with to get the attention of the attendees. So really we hit it through the industries we support. So Heavy highway, we do a lot in the course of warehousing and distribution. There's large trade shows that that industry supports. Michele Massaro [00:38:26]: And you want something that is going to be, again, well attended. That's the key, right? There's a lot of these trade shows. They'll sell things almost like back in the day, we get like job fairs. Like they have these big organized job fairs and those were typically a bus, right? So you really need to get involved. And sometimes it's the best way to get is talk to your customers and say, hey, what organizations are you part of? You know, where can we learn more about what's important to your industry? And we'd love to participate. And that's how we've gotten involved in probably three or four of the organizations that we have been with for several years now. So I would talk to your customers. Danny Cahill [00:39:02]: That's a great point, Michelle. Yeah, no, it's a great point because there's some that, you know, I'll ask. Hey, you know, I saw this conference out there. That's something that I should be going to. And they'll say yes or no. But for us, it's a lot of State bank association conferences, annual conferences. But to Danny's point, you'll be sent out a message as well, too. The great thing about going to these conferences, you get attendee lists, right? What a great sourcing tool. Danny Cahill [00:39:24]: You know, a lot of Them might be in your database already, but there's some that may not be. But you know, obviously you're going to put it on your social media that if you're flying somewhere, you're flying there. Hey, if you're here, catch us up this booth. Now, historically, we never, we usually just go walk the shows. We've never had a kind of a booth presence. We switched that up a few years ago. We do have booths. A lot of them will have a booth presence. Danny Cahill [00:39:43]: Just trying to get the brand name out there to say we have a visible presence versus, you know, you go to these trade shows and you have the little name tags and people can't see your name. But now you can see our, you know, in our vendor hall. Yeah, we try not to go to many that have a lot of our competitors at. There is one, a huge one that's probably three or four thousand. It's a national conference that a lot of our competitors go to. But you know, there's plenty of business to go around and you know, those are great to. Especially a conference that big where you're setting up a ton of appointments. So. Danny Cahill [00:40:09]: But I, you know, again, depending on what audience you're going after, you're trying to find candidates, you're trying to find both. You know, I wouldn't go to a conference that doesn't have a lot of hiring managers at it. That's just me. It's got to be where we can decision makers that are going to be, you know, needing leading talent. But for us, it's been great. And having the booth has been great too. And having that kind of building the brand as well too. Kortney Harmon [00:40:30]: I love it. Chris Allaire [00:40:34]: Recruiting is complex. Sometimes you just need a hand, someone beside you to give you that nudge to keep you on course. Introducing the new crelate copilot. Copilot is crelate's AI assistant. But it's more than just artificial intelligence. Michele Massaro [00:40:52]: Copilot brings you recruiter intelligence. Chris Allaire [00:40:55]: Need a quick reminder to reply to a candidate's email? Or maybe you're stuck writing up that new job description. Need a nudge to send a follow up to that client who hasn't gotten back to you? Copilot is there to help you craft it effortlessly. With over 30 skills at your fingertips, Crelate copilot doesn't just keep you organized. It keeps you ahead of the game. Because recruiting isn't just about filling roles. It's about about building relationships. And crelate copilot is the partner you've been waiting for. Check us out and crelate the future of recruiting. Kortney Harmon [00:41:38]: All right, I want to talk about sales. Obviously we talked about businesses growing, but in order for business to grow we have to have new sales. What has been your focus this year? Has it been focus on new logos? Has it been focused on deeper account penetration? Where has everything been for you guys and what has been your focus at least for this year or what about next year? And I know it's probably a two for one. I'm going to guess that, you know, always be selling the whole concept of that. Chris, I'm going to start with you first. New logos, existing logos, both sometimes when we get in the day to day and we're literally reactive, sometimes we can only focus on one versus another. So talk to me about where your focus is for 2025. Chris Allaire [00:42:18]: I'm a fan of Go to the well I've known people that I've known for a long time. You know, I've watched them excel their career from senior level staff level engineer to vp. So for me it's not so much where they're working, but if they're in a technology sector or a stack that I work with, I'm always talking to these people. So most time they bring me with them, which is nice. So for me it's always asking them, you know, talking to them about what are they working on, you know, what are you building, who's using it, you know, what type of new products are you getting into right now? Are you seeing the marriage between product and technology? You know, because a lot of organizations are moving to separate. You know, you used to have a chief technology officer and product kind of ran under that umbrella. But now product and technology are together but separate. So networking with those people, I don't have any tricks to trade, but it's kind of knowing where they are, what they look for and constantly kind of letting them know like, hey, I don't know if you're hiring right now, but if you are, there's someone I know that's looking, hey, this is a rare find on the market, you know, etc. Danny Cahill [00:43:16]: Etc. Chris Allaire [00:43:17]: So constantly keeping kind of your name in front of somebody, but more the relationship with the person, less the logo. And what I want to know is that if, you know, someone leaves their job as, you know, a CTO of X and they are now the CTO of Y. Well I keep my relationship with X but now I have a great relationship with Y. So you know, kind of old school ways to grow your business right there. Kortney Harmon [00:43:41]: Danny, I see you shaking your Head. Anything to add to that? Danny Cahill [00:43:44]: Yeah, no, that's all good stuff. I don't think it's either or, Kortney, Obviously, I think you have to assume. I think part of the success we've had is I'm just a completely paranoid person. Like, I'm freaked out. If we get a lot of business from a client, I'm assuming they're going to drop us like a bad habit or ask us for reduction in fee that I can no longer accept because they feel like they got us because we filled so many jobs. So we're always about new business. At the same time. I just have this sort of philosophy that I've always had and it got sort of reinforced when I got into the training business and started going into other recruiting firms and seeing how they work. Danny Cahill [00:44:20]: So it's clear to me after four recessions and a pandemic that if you put a bad recruiter in a really hot niche, they will find a way to make money. Put a good recruiter in a really hot niche, they'll make really good money. Put a great recruiter in a really hot niche and they get super rich and become prima donnas and they become attitudes. But if you put a great recruiter in a bad niche, they will suck. So to me, that makes it obvious. You've got to go to where the hiring is. You've got to be looking not for just new logos but for hot niches. And that's my job in the. Danny Cahill [00:44:59]: In the industry as far as my company goes, because I'm not like a desk is. Where is the money? This is why we got into. We weren't always in software sales, but then we found out there's this whole health sales thing that nobody's in and it's getting big really fast. And you got in it early. I mean, right now I can tell, even though we're not in it, I wish we were. I think about whether or not we should try to get in it or whether I should try to recruit somebody who's in it. But the senior living space exploding, a food service space exploding. If you were a recruiter struggling because your niche has been hard hit in 23 and 24, I promise you, if you started over in senior living today, you would get back up on your feet faster than if you tried to continually call people who you've known for years who have no business for you and they're not going to have more business for you this year than they did last year because they're still struggling. Danny Cahill [00:45:54]: So to me, it's Always a mix of staying with your legacy people. Obviously you're going to service your existing clients and try to stand that. But we're always trying to find adjacent niches to where we already are that for economic reasons are growing right now. And we've identified some of those in technology and we're off to the race. Kortney Harmon [00:46:14]: Have you added any of those in 2024 or plan to in 2025? Danny Cahill [00:46:19]: Yeah, absolutely. And that I won't be bore you with them, but there are sub niches within technology that we've seen private equity money. I'm a big believer in finding out where the money's going and then going down the tentacles. And we talk to a lot of people, a lot of board of directors, a lot of PE firms, a lot of VPs of R& D and saying, where is the money going? Right. That's how we knew food service manufacturing was doing really well because interestingly, people seem to want to eat every day. So there's money going into that sector in robotics. And then you start looking at see what people do. Michelle mentioned earlier, it's like people hear automation and so they start calling automation companies. Danny Cahill [00:46:56]: No, it's who makes parts that the automation company needs. Who are the vendors to those people? Who's supplying technology to those people. So that's what we started to see 10 years ago. It's like this technology sector said, you know what, hospitals, clinics, private doctors, they're like in the 1990s, technology wise, there's a whole world out there that these people have to be updated to. And we jumped on that bandwagon early and it was fully 50% of our business for a decade. So I'm a big believer in chasing the money and the hot niches and not trying to squeeze one last dollar out of a niche that is going to be suffering for another two years or three. Kortney Harmon [00:47:39]: Great advice, J.T. i'm going to pick on you. You and I had a conversation last week too. Talk to me about what you guys have done in 2024 when it comes to your sales. Have you added any new verticals? Have you added business? Has there been a refocus on existing clients? Where are you guys focused? Danny Cahill [00:47:53]: Yeah, I mean, it's again, we're blessed to have a tenured team here. Right. And a lot of deep relationships. Nurse those for, for a number of years now. But, you know, being the bulk of our business is financial services. It's a consolidating industry. You know, you've got banks buying banks, you got credit unions merging. You've got credit unions buying banks. Danny Cahill [00:48:13]: So you know, when you have two clients that merge, you lose a client. So for us it's continuing for new logos and expanding geographically. We have to, you know, we're based here in Michigan. There's less and less banks every year and that's going around all over and it's still going to continue. So for us it's been a big focus on. And you know, we've done work in 20 states this year and you know, we're talking amongst our financial services team here pretty soon about our targets for next year. And it has to be, we have to continue to expand geographically for us. I mean we're a generalist firm. Danny Cahill [00:48:45]: So within financial services there's probably not a position within a financial institution we haven't recruited on at one point. Right. So that, that certainly has helped now through the recession. If we just did commercial lending, we might not be here today. Right. So you know, obviously if we just did mortgage, you know, we might not, you know, in the last couple of years, you know, a couple of years ago, yeah, mortgage was booming. Right. But as the market consolidates, we still have to continue to develop, you know, new new areas, new geographies for us. Danny Cahill [00:49:12]: And that's kind of spilled into, you know, some fintech stuff as well. Kortney Harmon [00:49:15]: Michelle, anything to add from your perspective from the staffing world with light industrial manufacturing? Michele Massaro [00:49:21]: It sounds like everybody, we're all kind of looking at business the same way. Right. So I think Danny mentioned adjacent industries. I wrote that down because I think that that's important. Right. Looking at, you know, where we saw obviously, you know, again looking to take advantage of opportunities. And those opportunities have changed, especially in the light industrial space. As I said, the E Commerce space has significantly changed. Michele Massaro [00:49:42]: So we start to look at, okay, well, you know, people aren't buying the product but somebody's still making the products. Let's get into the manufacturing space. Right. And so we kind of got more heavily involved in that. And the same thing with the robotics, you know, going out to the companies that are producing the product, the robotics and the technology and saying how can we support that? So you're finding ways to follow the money, which Danny mentioned and being, you know, nimble and quick to adjust. And that really does create when you're doing that, when you're going after those adjacent industries. And I like that you're going to pick up new logos naturally. And it is, of course we're in a relationship business. Michele Massaro [00:50:23]: The people that we've worked with, all of us have been in this business for a long time. So we have these relationships that carrier, you know, across your career. Right. Because people move from different companies and. And they move into different industries as well. So as they move into, you know, I never thought we'd be in that heavy highway and field, right? But we are, because someone from another industry, you know, brought us into it, said, hey, you know, we provide maintenance technicians over here. Can you provide them over here? I'm like, sure. So, you know, you kind of figure you find out ways to find those opportunities, but you always have to add, I think new logos is really the key. Michele Massaro [00:50:57]: And that's what we're really focused on and did well this year with adding new clients. We had set a goal. You always have to have that goal, hit that number and exceeded that number probably about halfway through the year in terms of adding new logos. So that was pretty exciting. Chris Allaire [00:51:11]: Just to echo a couple things, the industry thing is awesome. I've always been a huge fan of industries. The reason why most industries, if one company is doing something, they're typically not the outlier everyone's doing and in that industry to do the same thing, right? So if you look at streaming services, for example, they're all the same. It's just the content's different or where you get your news resource, it's all the same. Just maybe the delivery of content's just a little bit different. So if you find out that one company right in the streaming space is doing something and they're doing it new and different, and all of a sudden they're integrating new technologies, and you're like, wow, this is pretty cool. I guarantee you everybody in that industry is either doing it or talking about it or going to be doing it soon. So then you start having conversations with those people and you're saying, hey, are you doing this, this and this? Are you getting into this? And it's almost like, yes, we are like eavesdropping on our conversations, like, what's going on here? And then you're like, great, so are you doing this methodology? Are you following this? And you've already got all the answers. Chris Allaire [00:52:08]: And I found that just so your level of conversations with people are really high level. And then they kind of look at you like, I have, I guess I have to work with you now because you've officially scared the hell out of me. So I think if you see industries that are hot and doing really well swim in that pond because they're all going to be doing the same thing for the most part, maybe a little bit different. From each other, but not too different. Kortney Harmon [00:52:30]: Good advice. All right, I'm going to switch topics. We have candidates. There's talent shortage. That was like the talk of the town at asa. At American Staffing association, there's numbers to associate. We're having skills gaps, we're having talent shortages with our markets. Talk to me. Kortney Harmon [00:52:49]: Are you addressing the skills gap? Are you doing something different to attract top talent? Are you looking at your candidates processes? Let's focus on the candidates for a minute. What are you going to be doing different in 2025 when it comes to talent? Dani, you want to start? Danny Cahill [00:53:06]: Yeah. Although I just don't know your audience enough to know, Kortney, whether what I'm doing is relevant. Because you mentioned asa, which is contract staffing, and I know a lot of people on this call are in staffing. So when you say, you know, skills gaps and talent shortages, that's not the issue in direct hire, you know, especially because of LinkedIn Recruiter. Everybody's on LinkedIn Recruiter. The challenge is that this word passive candidate has been overused, was stolen by, indeed used by LinkedIn. It's used by ZipRecruiter, saying that it's giving you access to passive candidates. But that's just code for I'm online. Danny Cahill [00:53:43]: I'm online, so you know who I am. So we're assuming everybody online is passive. But in reality, you know, while we live in the ecosystem of LinkedIn recruiter, most candidates do not. So in executive search, it's not that there's a talent shortage, it's that they won't call you back. They're ghosting you. They have no interest in you. They're all happy where they are. So what we've tried to do is lean into that as a search firm. Danny Cahill [00:54:08]: And we've said. And this has helped us because the number one problem for a search firm is a company who has a lot of openings, hires a talent act team, and then they say, we have our talent act team and They've got a LinkedIn recruiter seat and we don't need you. So all good search firms are doing, and certainly what we've leaned into here and what I push in my training is to make a distinction like. Like the bad recruiting firm is saying, well, use your talent act people, but then use us too, and just hire the best person. Well, they don't want to do that talent acting. Our message to them is, that's not what we do. You won't get our candidates online. They're not trolling postings. Danny Cahill [00:54:48]: They're not responding. They don't even know they're looking until someone like me calls them. So we make a case for you don't even know the best people because they are not passive. They're actually furtive. They're secret, they're clandestine. They don't exist yet. And the good search firms are creating candidacy as opposed to the bad search firms who are just passing candidates on. So that's the sort of mantra messaging that we use so that we try to distinguish ourselves from these other firms and say, yeah, yeah, yeah. Danny Cahill [00:55:21]: What they do is not what we do. It's a very different thing. So that may not apply to contract staffing, where people are on projects and they're always available and all that, but in my world, the talent shortage is not about those gaps. It's about getting these candidates to call you back. Kortney Harmon [00:55:36]: How are you getting them to call you back, Danny? Danny Cahill [00:55:38]: Then. Yeah, no, it really goes back to what we were saying earlier, is my people are not sending 16 different InMail messages and then attaching a posting and saying, if this looks like something you or someone you know might be interested in, give me a call or send this on. No, we send an InMail. We say, I saw your profile. We should talk. When's a good time? That's it. We're getting on the phone with these people, and then we're usually getting referrals to other people. We're not usually placing that person. Danny Cahill [00:56:05]: I can tell you from being in a hundred different search firms in the last couple years, they're not doing that. They're just emailing and posting, posting and hoping, posting and hoping, posting and hoping. So they're very passive, and we're very aggressive. So it's as simple as that. Kortney Harmon [00:56:21]: Amazing. Jt, you were going to say something. I'm so sorry. Danny Cahill [00:56:23]: Yeah, I kind of agree. Everything Danny said, because we're. We don't do any contract staffing. Danny Cahill [00:56:26]: All work per. Danny Cahill [00:56:27]: You're paying us for our expertise to find those candidates. Right, That's. That's when I added on to that. We assumed you've already done the LinkedIn and the zip recruiters. You know, you know, you can think of examples of, you know, hey, this has been open for a year and a half, and we filled it in a few weeks. Right. Because you're paying us for our knowledge of the industry and the marketplace and who. Who we know we can call. Danny Cahill [00:56:46]: Increase. Danny Cahill [00:56:47]: You made a point. He can call. I got. You're looking for this? Yeah, I might have some for you. Give me a couple of hours. Danny Cahill [00:56:51]: Right. Danny Cahill [00:56:52]: That's what our expertise, that's our true value as a talent access partner is. We assume our clients have already vetted that out and that's calling us. Kortney Harmon [00:56:59]: So I'm going to ask you the same question I asked Danny. How are you getting those candidates to move? Because obviously they're a hot commodity. I know you do things different. That's your value. But how are you getting the candidates to call you back that are passive, that don't want to leave the place that they're at today? Danny Cahill [00:57:13]: It can't be about us. Danny Cahill [00:57:14]: Right? Danny Cahill [00:57:14]: It's got to be about them and learning. And again, it might take a couple and different. I, you know, I found, you know, as may agree, like different groups, if I'm calling somebody in a sales role, they're going to respond differently versus somebody that's maybe an accountant. Right. It's all about making it about them and trying to get them to say, hey, I'd love to talk to you about your career. You know, and again, you're going to tweak the messaging a little bit, but it's not a, hey, I got a job. You interested? Danny Cahill [00:57:38]: Right. Danny Cahill [00:57:38]: You know, that's a lot of what people do. And, you know, there's no, no relationship. You try to make it about them and, you know, you might get a response, say, hey, I'm good with my career now, but open to having a conversation with you. Just trying to get them on the phone, you know what? And it can't. Again, it's not about us. It's about getting to know them, building a network, a rapport with them that you may talk to somebody today that you might not have a search to work on within for like eight years, but you're establishing and planting that seed today and continuing to stay in touch with that person. Danny Cahill [00:58:07]: And I don't know if you want to get this far into the weeds here, Kortney, but the reality is when you say, well, how do you get these guys who don't have to move or aren't looking to talk to you in the move? Well, the reason why most people fail is not because candidates aren't willing to make a move. There's a lot of opportunistic candidates. I mean, anytime you look at surveys from Glassdoor and other surveys, I've seen up to 60% of people say they are looking to make a move at some point if they saw the red opportunity at any given time. 47% of people said, even when they take a job, they stay open to other jobs. The problem is most of the jobs we're calling them about are no better than the one they have. So it really comes down to you don't have a compelling enough story. You're trying to say to a candidate, majority of recruiters out there, no offense, but the majority of you are saying, how would you like to do exactly what you're doing somewhere else so I can make money? And the answer, amazingly, is no, I don't. I don't want to do that. Danny Cahill [00:59:04]: But if I can say, as JT Said, I don't know much about you, let's get to know each other, and then if there's a search that I think is worth talking about, we'll do that. Maybe not. Maybe I'll place in two years, who knows? But let's get to know each other a little bit. And then if I've got a compelling enough story, you know, the big myth is I'm looking for serious candidates. No, you're not. There are no serious candidates. Candidates get serious once they get in front of my client and my client shows them how much better their life could be. Candidates gets you there. Kortney Harmon [00:59:35]: Chris, do you have any vision of the IT industry and either talent shortage or opinion about the topic that we're talking about right now? Chris Allaire [00:59:42]: Oh, yes, I do. I love it. There's so many things about it. I'm listening to everybody. It's great because I'm highly specialized and I'm one of those people that I really preach, you know, find something you're good at and do it better than anybody else. And what I'm trying to do is. And I know I've worked around the countries is I've seen a lot of different practices, and I like being deep and narrow in my field. So. Chris Allaire [01:00:03]: Because what I want to do is I want to. It's who you know and when you know them. Right. That's the. The secret is they're not looking today, but they will be looking soon. The question is, so what I'm always teaching my team, I'm always preaching out there is I'm highly specialized in this area. You do this. So when you're looking, you're going to need to know somebody who knows what you do that's going to make your search that much better. Chris Allaire [01:00:27]: Highly specialized, because that's who I'm networking with is this. This deep and narrow body as opposed to the broad and shallow which I've seen in other firms that are like. And people like that know, God bless them, but they're very reactive. It's like, oh, I need all right, no problem. Oh, you need this for. Oh, you need a janitor. Good. Oh, you need a vp. Chris Allaire [01:00:44]: I, I can, I'll, I'll search the Internet for that, too. And I. There's a place for that. And I appreciate that. But personally, what I found success is knowing that when you're ready to hire someone in a month, I'm going to know the people that you need and when you're going to look for a job in the new year, because you're going to, you're going to need to know me and you're going to want to know me, because that's how you're going to find your. The best opportunity for you. So with doing that and when you know candidates, whether they're looking or not, it's always talking to candidates about what's hot and what's not. What are they interested in, what are they researching, what are they seeing the next trends are going to be, you know, where, what's the new technology initiatives, what are they going after. Chris Allaire [01:01:26]: So candidates are the eyes and the ears to everything that's going on in the marketplace, because I don't know what's. I don't. I mean, I only know what's hot in the text field by talking to them. So if they tell me that this crazy new thing is going to come out and it's going to change the world, and it's amazing, I'm going to listen to them because that means other people are going to talk about that also. So when I talk to my clients and I talk to them, I can ask them, how are you implementing this? Are you working on this? Are you talking about this? So your conversations are a lot more specific with people, and then they know that you know what they know. So. And then it's all about, like, when you know and then when you know. So I think that's. Chris Allaire [01:02:04]: The other thing is, like, I'm just a huge fan of being specialized in an area. So you're talking to them today, not for tomorrow, but for three months from now. Kortney Harmon [01:02:13]: Michelle, your lens is different. Michele Massaro [01:02:15]: Yeah. But I will say so. I was at the ASA conference and there was a discussion, lots of discussions about, you know, staffing shortages. I don't know that that's necessarily true. I think there are candidates out there. I think it's getting the right opportunity. And I think jt, somebody mentioned it's about the candidate. Right. Michele Massaro [01:02:34]: It's really got to be about the person you're trying to find a job for. And that's really regardless of industry Right. It's gotta be a good fit for them. If it's good fit for them and you can show value of where you're potentially going to place them, I think that it could be successful. I think the challenge that we have is, you know, the quality of candidates continues to be, you know, why people work has changed, the definition of work has changed and it may never go back, especially in that broader space, may never go back to what it was five years ago. Right. So finding ways to focus on that candidate and what's important to them, where their priorities are and helping then find the next step, because it is tough to say, hey, you can work here, you can work there, it's the same thing, right? It's got to feel different for them. And I think that that is a pretty universal message. Michele Massaro [01:03:24]: Regardless of what the person's skill or experience is, it's really focusing on where their priorities are, meeting them there and then finding what opportunity will get them to the next level, whatever that is to them. Right. It could be as simple as, I'm tired of working second shift, I really want a first shift job. Right. That could be a very basic, simple change for someone, or it could be, hey, I've just gotten my degree, I'd really like to go into the healthcare field, but I'm having a hard entry point into that. So how do you help me get there? So I think really that's been the focus and if you do that right, you know, you obviously it's a win, you get a win with the candidate getting selected for the right job, right opportunity, and it all comes together. So there's a lot of people out there looking for work right now, but it's finding the right composition for right, what works. Kortney Harmon [01:04:16]: I love it. We only have 15 more minutes. I'm going to kind of wrap up of this one big question. I want you to think about 2025. How are you preparing your organization to navigate what's to come? And do you have any predictions for 2025? Chris Allaire [01:04:32]: So in the tech sector has been interesting because typically what a lot of people don't know is in the technology sector, on average on an annual basis is about 34% voluntary turnover. So that's a third of the people you've hired are going to leave your engineering team that year. The last two years, the voluntary turnover has been less than 7. So there's a big difference there. The reason why not a lot of opportunities out there. However, the amount of people that we've spoken to that are chomping at the bit to get out of their job, to leave to look for something new, to make the change, to grow their career, to get into a new technology stack. Whatever it is they are, people are waiting and they are ready to jump out of the plane if they have a parachute or not. So I'm telling people right now like you better be ready for the turnover because I have a feeling that with the lack of what has happened in the tech sector over the last two years, we might be drinking from a fire hose coming 2025. Chris Allaire [01:05:30]: So the biggest things are get ready for turnover, make sure your all your stuff is organized, ready to go. Don't be afraid of global hires. We've seen it in the technology sector for years except we always called it offshore. You know, whether it's in India, Ukraine, you know, whatever it might be. But I wouldn't be surprised if rather than hiring somebody remote who's in Florida or Texas, where these people are looking at something in Argentina, Costa Rica, Mexico, you know, places like this. So I wouldn't be surprised if we see a lot more intent on, on near shoring and globalization. Also in the tech sector, preparing for a lot of cross pollination between roles. We used to be DevOps and security have merged a lot machine learning and it's now called ML Ops. Chris Allaire [01:06:13]: So these jobs have, have merged a lot where technology has overlapped. So it's making sure that you're staying on top of okay what's really going on out there. Like you need to be more, you really need to be more cognizant of hearing what's really happening so you can stay ahead of the curve when it happens. And if you're able to do that, you're going to be fine. If you're not, you're going to be completely reactive and then you're going to get probably beat you a bunch. So I'm telling everyone heavy turnover, be open to your global markets. Be not so strength in the types of tech and what people are really doing and how they're doing it these days. And the other oh and back to office. Chris Allaire [01:06:50]: I know in New York a lot of the hybrid stuff and we, we have still clients that are remote but I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing a lot more of what Amazon Amazon just did back like you're back in the office and I wouldn't be surprised if that's a new, a new old standard. Kortney Harmon [01:07:07]: A new old standard. Just like the phone. Jt, what are you doing for your firm? What are you focusing on? How are you preparing for 2025 and any predictions? Danny Cahill [01:07:15]: Yeah, I think for us again, financial services focused. I think there's still going to be market consolidation within our industry. So again, the challenge for us and the goal for us is to get new logos. I'm optimistic though in terms of, you know, team is today and seeing some of the work that's coming in now. I'm anticipating a good start to the year. But it's. There's always worries me every year, right. Danny's like, I'm always paranoid. Danny Cahill [01:07:39]: It says how dependent are you on one client? Right. And there's a couple people on our staff that are dependent on one client. But again, new logos because that can drop and if you're not marketing. So new marketing is going to be the huge focus for us. But I'm optimistic for, for 25. Kortney Harmon [01:07:56]: I love that. Danny, I'm going to come to you, but I'm going to remind everybody, if you have a question, we only have 10 minutes left. If you have a question that you want to ask this group, put it in the chat. How are you preparing your organization and any predictions for 2025? Danny Cahill [01:08:08]: I think to if we're going to answer that question seriously, then we have to touch on the third rail of seminars is you never talk about politics or religion. But we are going to have a change in administration. So as a business person, I have to be logical about that. Right. And I'll be honest, I'm a hardcore liberal. I'm seriously considering a four year verbo in Canada. But I also accept what happens. And then I go, okay, how does this affect my business? So either way you look at it, for people that are freaked out, that are on the liberal side or the Democratic side, any way you want to. Chris Allaire [01:08:41]: Look at it, I tell them to. Danny Cahill [01:08:42]: Relax because Barack Obama had both houses of Congress when he got elected and it took three years for Obamacare to get passed. Trump had both houses of Congress in 2017. He wasn't able to get the tax cut done until the very end of 2017 and it didn't affect anybody's income until 2018. So this whole idea of tariffs are going to be raised, the inflation's going to go out of control and we're going to spiral into recession. This is I guess the only advantage of being older and I mean it's the advantage because the rest is horrible, is you can look back a little bit and go, these things never happen the way they say they're going to happen. They get about 10% of what they talk about campaigns done and the reality of it is, I look at it as a reasonable, pragmatic person is whoever won in November was going to inherit a really good economy with less than 4% unemployment, with wage growth exceeding inflation, which went from 9 to 2.4. And you got a lot of pent up demand as Crick is talking about. So we have 41 companies telling us call us in January because we're going to be adding headcount. Danny Cahill [01:09:56]: That number was 13 last year. So the logic in me says we got a pretty good economy and if we just do our jobs, we're going to do really well. For what it's worth, the intuition that I've formed after four decades in this business is this industry, the staffing industry goes on runs. It goes on runs normally for like three to eight years when everything's good for about a three to eight year period. The Y2K period, the 2017 to 2022 period, those three crazy months with the pandemic. I can go back as far as, you know, Reaganomics kicking in in the mid-80s where you have a three to eight year period where greed is good and Gordon Gekko is on the movies. So my wish tells me that things are in place where we're going to go on a run as an industry again for three to eight years. So maybe that's my inherent optimist, but I don't think it's that. Danny Cahill [01:10:53]: I think it's seeing the pieces as they develop and go, okay, you've got this period of time read eight years, three, eight years from that. I don't think there's any question that AI will have an effect unemployment in America. And I can see industries that would be in trouble and it's mostly lower level stuff. But between there then and now, you're going to have the opposite with this. Danny Cahill [01:11:17]: Just what we've experienced in the recruiting. Danny Cahill [01:11:19]: Industry, which is, oh, I thought we're going to replace us in two minutes and instead it turns out to be a really nice tool to make us more effective. That's what everybody's going to find. Oh, I thought we were going to replace paralegals. No, we can't. Oh, we have robots in light industrial. We don't need Michelle. Oh, yes we do. And I think we're about to go on a run. Danny Cahill [01:11:38]: So we are pedal down hiring recruiters and we're going to go on a run. That's what we look. Kortney Harmon [01:11:44]: I love it. Michelle, organization, how you're preparing and any predictions for 2025? Michele Massaro [01:11:51]: Well, I think from a prediction perspective we looked at, so we heard common theme, all of us today was, hey, things are better this year. Right. So one thing staffing to me and being in it for three decades is we're the first ones to go into the tank and we're the first ones to come out. So we heard it right now everybody's starting to come out. So I, I predict that 2025 is going to be a stronger year. We're going to continue to come out and as Danny mentioned, it's going to run in that cycle. You know, we similar three to three to five years. We look at five to eight, whatever that number is. Michele Massaro [01:12:23]: But we're going to see an upswing in certainly opportunity. Right. So preparing for that. How are we preparing for that? It is client conversations, getting in front of what's most important, going after the new business opportunities really go back. I think we started the conversation going back to some of the basics. Danny Cahill [01:12:40]: Right. Michele Massaro [01:12:41]: Not being afraid to reach out. We reaching out and having those connections with potential and existing customers is how we all got here. Right. And making sure we are staying relevant to those customers. And I think if you're doing that, we're going to see a really nice recovery. And we've seen it started this year, so I think that we're coming out of it as I see it. Danny Cahill [01:13:03]: Yep. Kortney Harmon [01:13:04]: All right, Chris, I'm going to direct this one to you because it was tech recruiting. So there's a question in the chat. Chris Allaire [01:13:10]: Yeah. Kortney Harmon [01:13:11]: Will AI replace many tech jobs and how will this affect tech recruiting industry in general? Chris Allaire [01:13:17]: So it's interesting because AI is just a newer, more advanced version of a machine learning algorithm which just. It's all ones and zeros. Is it going to replace people? No, it is going to make their job stronger. The problem is what's going to happen is more people are going to be relying on it. And the issue we're going to see, I think we're going to have a little high and low on this is it can give you ideas on code, but it can't code for you. And if anybody's ever looked at what coding looks like on, it looks like the Matrix. So you've got 10,000 lines of dots and commas and spaces and, you know, depending on, you know, tabs, not spaces, depending on who you are. Everyone knows, like when these outages, right, have happened, you know, AWS had an outage or whatever, you know, these things happen. Chris Allaire [01:13:56]: It's like a comma's in the wrong place and that's what happens. And it shuts down Global economies. So there are certain industries where you can get away with having, you know, if your software as a service or an E commerce business, you know, you may not need, you know, the strict level developer that you used to think you have, but you can get someone who's proficient with a copilot or something to that effect. But if you're in insurance or underwriting or commodities, business exchange climate, any of these crazy industries where, you know, you need stuff processed in real time, you're not putting this on an AI bot to generate code for you. Trust me, they are not. And that's not any, especially in the engineering field because it's just not going to happen. So obviously it's going to get more sophisticated. But at the end of the day it's fun for certain things. Chris Allaire [01:14:46]: You know, it's prompts that can get you to like certain things. But it's still not going to do the job for you because even if it does generate some code, you still got to read the whole thing, edit it, make sure it's accurate. By the time you've done that, you can just done it yourself. Danny Cahill [01:15:01]: Yeah, totally. Kortney Harmon [01:15:02]: Great. I have one other question. The question is from Daryl. It says does anybody use any psychometrics testing on candidates like evaluating them for being a good fit with client culture or is that just not done? Danny Cahill [01:15:16]: I'm really, really opposed to that idea because I understand it as an idea because it's a value differentiator. And you can say to your clients we test our candidates, but in practice doesn't work. I'll tell you why candidates won't do it. So now you have a candidate who is a great fit, who'd be happy to interview, but he's not doing this damn test for you. Either send me on the interview or not. And so now you gotta make a decision. Do I lose this candidate because he won't do the test? And if I let him not take the test, what the hell are we using the test for? Everybody I know has ever done this, two months later gives up the test. You simply in this market, when you find a good candidate, you gotta get them in process before someone else finds them. Danny Cahill [01:15:55]: And waiting around for a test, oh my God, I'm utterly opposed to scared the hell out of it. Danny Cahill [01:16:01]: Anybody else we use a personality test for. You know, a lot of our, a lot of my clients have their own. We do offer one and it's not a pass or fail. It takes 10 or 15 minutes to do. And you know, there's really two components of it that you know, a client could take, or the hiring manager could take it, say, hey, who's the ideal candidate profile? It tracks traits like, hey, are they outgoing or are they more, Are they more introverted, are they more restless and pressure oriented? Are they, you know, competitive and goal oriented? It's things like that. So again, I tell my clients it is a tool. It is not a make or break. Because there's been folks that, you know, the candidate takes their portion of it, again, takes 10 or 15 minutes. Danny Cahill [01:16:38]: Client takes their hiring manager takes it. Ideal candidate profile. We put them together. Are they a match, strong match, potential match, or not a match. And I tell the clients, I said, hey, there's going to be people that I need that you're going to be, you're going to be seeing that are not going to be a match. You still should talk to them. And I can think of a CIO I did for a financial institution five years ago that wasn't an idea, was not a match to the profile that the CEO put together. And they got together and it's clicks because again, it's all about the human interaction. Danny Cahill [01:17:02]: It's a tool, but it should not be a make or break. But we offer it. Again, a lot of our clients use their own, but it's part of our service. Danny Cahill [01:17:09]: Works better at high levels for sure. Yeah, yeah. Kortney Harmon [01:17:12]: Okay. Let me ask the devil's advocate to that question. Does anybody use those tools for their own team when they're hiring certain personalities needed for sales or recruiting or still no. Danny Cahill [01:17:23]: We use the same for us here. Kortney Harmon [01:17:24]: You do. Danny Cahill [01:17:25]: I mean, if you looked at mine, probably not ideal recruitment, but yeah, I've been here 18 years. So again, you know, it's a data point, It's a tool in the toolbox. Chris Allaire [01:17:36]: I think it's interesting because the. We use them after they're hired. But most a lot of hiring is based on gut. You know, it's so there's no science or art to that. It's just like, I really like this person, I want to work with this person I'm going to hire. So after they're hired, we do the disc assessment and there's a lot of other ones that are out there, but I don't want to know these things until I know that, like, you know what, I want this person working here. Let's get them hired. And then after that's management. Chris Allaire [01:18:05]: So that's the hard part that people forget to talk about. It's like you're not even going to manage these people. So how do I manage Them, well, then you need to understand them. But as far as if that's the person I want to hire and you're leaning on the fence and it's a really high level position, I think what Danny said, if it's a high level position, you know, C suite executive or someone that's going to be sitting in a very high level management spot, I think there are certain things that might be beneficial to, like, man, we don't know if this is the right person for the job. This is an expensive role for us. Then I can turn around and say, like, you know what? I've taken. I don't even know how many of these profile tests that, that are out there available. And I'm always interested to see when I come back, I'm like, I'm not as amazing I thought it was or I am amazing. Chris Allaire [01:18:45]: So I'll say, like, if you're leaning on the fence, this person really wants this job. Have them do this, get the results, see what it does. And I've seen it work, I've seen it not work, but I mean, there's a way that you can help. But I think if you're hiring and you're turning around, you're saying, I don't want this person hired, but then they pass a personality test and now you're hiring them, I don't think that's a good idea. So I'm a fan of kind of everything that Danny said. I'm not a. Like, you gotta, if you see him, you like them, hire him. If it doesn't work, it happens. Chris Allaire [01:19:17]: But if they turn into, be the best person you ever hired, your life, you're a genius. Danny Cahill [01:19:20]: It's all about the gut. You know, someone could be a perfect on paper and oh gosh, it's gonna be a home run and there's no chemistry, right? Or someone's like, ah, the resume. Ah, there's some things here. And you know, are you hiring for culture? Danny Cahill [01:19:32]: Right. Danny Cahill [01:19:32]: You know, and you know you can teach the skill set, right? Danny Cahill [01:19:35]: Yeah. Kortney Harmon [01:19:36]: You guys, this has been amazing. Thank you so very much for taking the time out of your very busy days to give us the insights of what you're seeing, what you're hearing, what you're doing. So thank you each very, very much. We've already got Patricia saying in the chat that it's been a great panel discussion. So thank you all. I don't want to keep you too much longer. I've literally kept you for an hour and a half on top of everyone else who's been here for two days. So the four of you, thank you so much for your time. Kortney Harmon [01:20:04]: I'll be following up via email to send you some goodies. And for everyone that joined us, thank you so much for joining us for this two day event. Keep on the lookout for so many more like this because 2025 is going to have more of these from us here at Crelate. So have a wonderful day guys and we will see you soon. We hope you found today's session insightful and inspiring from Remember to stay tuned in the upcoming weeks as we'll be sharing all of this amazing content of our virtual conference. If you missed any part of it, don't forget to subscribe to our show so you don't miss anything upcoming. And if you like this valuable content, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to share it with your network and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. We'd love to hear your thoughts. Kortney Harmon [01:20:49]: Together we're building a community of growth and learning. Until next time.