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Funding and the Succession Challenge · Succession and Transition

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_10: Hi there, my name is Chris Underhill.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Andrea Coleman.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_10: I'm Mel Young.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_10: We've created the Elders Council for Social Entrepreneurs to explore succession, leadership, well-being, and money.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_10: Navigating the good times and the bad.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: Hello everyone.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to our discussion today.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm delighted to welcome Rebecca Eastman.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Rebecca has a really unique perspective on social entrepreneurship.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: She's seen the movement from almost every aspect.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Today she'll be guiding us through her recommendations about succession, especially around communication with funders.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: I've asked Rebecca if she could do an introduction to her own organization, Greenwood Place.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome, Rebecca, and please lead on.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for having me.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: When Chris and Andrea emailed and said, could I do this?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: I said, if you're asking me, then I have to.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: So that was really that was really the reason.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm co-founder and CEO of Greenwood Place, which is a social enterprise that runs foundations or advises foundations.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_03: We do two things.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: We run a number of small foundations from the office and we advise others and we set it up because it needed to exist.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: So basically, the problem that we solve is that there is a bunch of capital, which is more than you can give, more than your monthly giving, but less than would enable you to have a staff team.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: And those people in the middle, many of them would like to give really make a real difference, but they can't because they don't have the time or the expertise.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: So we crowded in.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: So the office here, which is where I am, is a bunch of grantmakers.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: And that's our day job.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: My background is I ran a charity.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: So I started as a lawyer, then I worked in arts education for quite a long time, started up and ran an organization, then I spent 10 years in a bank, unbelievably.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I started and ran Philanthropy Advisory within JP Morgan, which is where I met you, Andrew.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: So I did that for quite a long time, but I've been running Greenwood Place since 2017, and it is a lot of fun.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess I have been a founder and transitioned out twice.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_03: Even the business that I started at JP Morgan, I was the founder of it, and I handed it over.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I've been a founder and I've transitioned out.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: I have funded people over transitions.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: I have many friends who are founders of things who think about what's going to happen after they go and who maybe don't think of some of the things you think about when you come at it from a giving perspective.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I sit on boards.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: So all of those things that Chris said, I'd like to talk about these three things, a social entrepreneur, the funder, and a board.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: I can wear all of those hats.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: So hopefully I can be a little bit useful.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's the beginning.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_03: What would you like me to do?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: How would you like to start this?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: You can see now why we've invited Rebecca to join us and to speak at this moment.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: We really think about succession and transition, its place in the sustainability of the movement of social enterprise, the sustainability of the individuals, the founders and the leaders of social enterprises, and the sustainability and continuing impact of organization.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's why this is very important and it's a conversation we have often, as you all know.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: So we felt that this was a point where Rebecca's perspective and insights could really help us all.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Rebecca will speak for 15-20 minutes and then we'll open the floor to questions.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Are you ready, Rebecca?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: I have my notes here, but feel free to interrupt me.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: Just put your hand up or ask if I say anything that doesn't make sense.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: And 15 minutes is a long time for one person to speak, so I'm really hoping that you will.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: Chris gave me three headings when we were thinking this through.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: So the social entrepreneur, the funder, and the board, and to think about funding and succession and transitions through those lenses.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: One of the first points, I guess, I wanted to make that I see isn't often done is as a social entrepreneur, when you're thinking about funding and asking for funds, people don't often think about themselves in the right way or even their teams in the right way.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: Pensions, thinking about what's going to happen when you stop work, thinking about building in healthcare, building in those kind of very basic and important things into funding bids.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: So what is the actual cost of running the organization, not on the shoestring that you started it with, but in a way that is sustainable for you and your team and post-career, let alone post this particular job.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: Here in the UK, it's a thing that people leave jobs in the social sector and move into government because they need more stability and they need some of those kind of extra perks that come with that.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: My sister-in-law's just done it.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: She's just moved from working in prison reform to working for the local authority in the UK because she just needs to make sure that she's got stable income and she's got pension contributions.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: So like these are very boring but quite grown-up things to think about.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: So I'd say from that point of view, just thinking about that and assuming that funders are not going to ask you that question, but that you need to build it in.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: And when you do, if anybody asks you, I think it's highly unlikely that they would object.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: So that's one of the kind of key points, I think.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: And then when you are thinking also from the point of view of a social entrepreneur, thinking about how and when to share information about, well, I'm thinking about leaving.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking about retiring, I'm thinking about leaving, I'm thinking about moving on.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: That's a really difficult thing to share with a funder.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: That is a really it is the big thing.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: And many people will have a key man clause in their grant agreement, which says, we reserve the right to stop funding you if you disappear.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: Being really clear about that and really practical is it's difficult.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: I was thinking about examples of where I've seen it done extremely well.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: One of them is happening right now.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a transition of leadership in an organization that we fund, and it's been done so beautifully.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: So it was flagged last year that the CEO who is stepping down has over a long period of time brought up her number two, who is an executive director of most of the organization already, in calls for quite a long time.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: They'd both be there.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: This has been an internal hire.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: You don't always have the luxury of an internal hire of your successor, but an internal hire of a successor gradually built up and handed over.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a lovely story to it as well, because the outgoing CEO has handed to somebody who is in the place that they are because of the organization.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: So the organization's been going for a really long time.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: The incoming CEO was originally a young person helped by that organization who's now worked in it, done various jobs, is now the CEO.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: That's as good as it gets.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: And it has been so well flagged.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: And the first thing that happened was so there was a phone call saying, This is happening.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to step down and I'm going to hand over to my colleague who you know really well, and you knew that this was happening because I've been saying it for a year.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: And as the funder of that organization, I feel very comfortable.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_03: So I know that there's always a risk that something will go wrong under new leadership.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: There always is.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: For a couple of years, we'll just be in a learning mode with that organization and we'll be really supportive of the new leader and we'll be with them for the journey because of the way it's been done.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: Another organization, to give you the opposite, we found a little organization in the UK that's quite kind of sparky, it's great, it's doing good things, and they're quite new to us.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: So we haven't built a strong relationship yet.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: They're quite new, but they do know us, and we are giving them money, and we have been to see them, and we know their office, and we know how they work.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: And the CEO is the guy who's out doing all the advocacy, he's a real activist, he's really punchy, and you think this organization is managing what it's managing because of him.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: And then we found out from social media that he's got another job.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: That is the way you don't do it.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: I think social media found out before his team found out.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: So that was a really bad one.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're thinking about two approaches, the one perfect approach you can't always do.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: You don't always have a colleague you're handing over to who you've worked with for a long time, who knows your organization better than you do.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: But you can do better than the second person.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: I am now really worried about that organization.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what's going to happen.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's a tiny team, it's really scrappy, it will probably fall apart because they don't have a CEO at the moment.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: That is not that's a bad transition.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: And one that is very scary and destabilizing for a funder.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: And remember, because I'm not responsible for my own money, I'm responsible for other people's money, and they're trusting us to make good judgments with how they give.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm responsible to them.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: And that is often the case.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: Greenwood Place is quite unusual in that we are responsible to a number of different people with different focus areas.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: But most people that you interact with who are funders, it's not their money, they're staff of somebody.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: And they are responsible to a board who have given them a mandate.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so enabling them to tell the story of a transition is really important.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_03: Otherwise, you can break a relationship with a funder, which then you know has bad consequences for the organization that you built.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_03: So that's from the perspective of the social entrepreneur.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_11: That was a really terrifying example, the one with the social media.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: I know, and it's totally unfolding right now, live.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_03: I really don't know what's going to happen.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: So when you speak, when you don't speak, and I think from the perspective of a funder, for us at Greenwood Place, and I know this is not the case for all funders, but for us at Greenwood Place, we are all about relationships.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's what we're about.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: We're about knowing the people that we work with, knowing their organizations, really being useful.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: And it was very surprising to us that somebody didn't call us.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: Pretty much always somebody will call us.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: We know what's going on.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: People will say, I've got this problem with my board, I've got this problem with my staff, we know what's happening.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: And we try and be a friend and a sounding board to our partners.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_03: With something like transition, even with me, and I'm on your side, so I'm a funder and I'm on your side, I would still be wary about talking too early about leaving.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_03: I would make sure that it's very clear that it's really happening, that you've talked to your board, that you've got all those ducks in a row, as we say in England, before you talk to anybody external and funders are external.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: But then have a comms plan.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: Who do you need to telephone?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: As many people as possible, phone.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_03: So we fund an organization in the UK that helps young people get into university.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the co-founders has retired.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's a wonderful organization.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: He called me.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: He didn't need to call me.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, it would have been perfectly fine to send an email.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: But the fact that he phoned me and said, you know, I've been doing this thing for 30 years, I've decided to retire, and this is our plan, made me feel really like I was really in the plan with him and the board very early on.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: He said, These are the things that I'm worried about, these are things I'm not worried about, this is why it's the right time for me to go.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: And these are the people who are coming up behind, who I think will step into my role now, and then we'll be recruiting.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: So it was all very that again was done very well.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think phone calls, if you can do them, are the best.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: When I left the bank, I phoned everybody and it really helped.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: Phoning up everybody internally and externally, and saying that you're going makes everybody feel like they're part of the plan.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it just helps you to maintain relationships which you might want or need to keep long term.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_03: So it is just a good idea, even though it feels like you're too busy and you can't possibly, because you've got a team to look after and other things to do.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's probably the key.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: So we've talked about looking after yourself and making sure you've got enough money and building that into funding.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: We've talked about when to speak, when not to speak, how to manage it, moving slowly, flagging the plan, being very relational, communicating as much as you possibly can.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: And then from the board perspective, the very boring thing is to maintain the risk register.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: Risk register, item number one, risk of it happening, CEO leaving.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: We hope it's low.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: Risk problem if it does happen, very high.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: So, how can we manage that?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: What can we do?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: We have a partner at the moment who has in the last year built a strong senior management team, far too late.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: They're doing it much later than they should have done, but they are at least doing it before they break.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: And having that strong senior management team is key.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes there is literally nobody who is quite you, and that is a risk if you're the founder, and that there is nobody who's quite you.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then actually, there's a conversation about what do we do if there's nobody who's quite me?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: How can the organization be better with somebody else?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: What does it look like in its new grown-up post-founder world?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: And that there always is a way through.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: One of the other stories that I said Chris I would share was of an organization that had a very powerful and effervescent CEO who really was the key to the organization, who was identified with the organization.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: And when she stepped down, her deputy stepped up, and her deputy was an accountant who has moved into the organization as a volunteer and stayed.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, that new CEO has been remarkable and has taken the organization to another level.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: And the former CEO is still around on the periphery, fundraising and bringing in money and doing speeches.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: And that has worked beautifully.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: It was a bit sticky to begin with, but it has worked.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: So risk register, building the SMT, I think those are things that boards can do really well, ensuring that the CEO is well supported and then supporting, if there is a transition, supporting with developing that communication plan, which I think is key to all of this.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_11: Thank you, Rebecca, very much.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_11: That's really good.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_11: One of the things I was going to say to you was that even though boards are informed by diligent founders, chief executives, that they're on their way, they still often get quite panicky at the actual moment of departure or at the announcement, at the resignation letter.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_11: And I wondered if you'd had experience of having to reassure work with a board, not necessarily in your own context, not about yourself, but in the context of your role and how that had developed over time.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: So boards do get panicky.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: I know this.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: And boards sometimes make bad decisions as well.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, make bad decisions about who the new person should be, how that should work.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: I guess the advice is to leave when you have a good chair.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: So that in all of this, everything that is big and difficult about organizations is about communication and having a chair of the board that you can communicate with as the outgoing person and a chair who can support you in communication.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like I think that's the critical thing, as somebody who has grown up enough to be able to cope when you do step down.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: Because yes, it can be panicky, but I don't think I've worked actively with a board who have panicked.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: That might be because they disappeared.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_11: And they then said, Okay, on your bike.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_11: And off I went.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_11: That was probably quite a good departure.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_11: Just one point for me.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_11: I was thinking about when you were saying, don't forget to add into the budget the various requirements, maybe for pension, maybe for whatever it was.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_11: And I can remember starting organizations and being really frightened at doing that and being really frightened of quote unquote inflating the budget.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_11: Now, from the perspective that you've taken, you obviously don't see it as inflation.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_11: You see it as logical.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_11: So I just wanted to make that point because it is actually quite frightening, especially when you're relatively young and starting a new organization.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: I have exactly the same.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: So we have at the moment, we phoned our partners and said, tell us about how the cost of living increases.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: If they exist in your context, how they're affecting you and your stuff.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: Do you need more money?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: And if so, what does that look like?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: So on the funder side, I'm doing that, but in my work, people pay us to run their foundations.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: But I have been putting my staff salaries up and my costs have increased, and I haven't passed them on.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the thing I have to deal with as well.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: It is hard to do that, though.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: I know very much how hard it is.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: When you first set out, you're so focused on the mission, all the money to go to the mission, and you forget just how important that transition moment is going to be, and investing in that, it seems to me, is vital.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I just wonder if donors can be seen and organizations can be seen as investing in good transition because it's fundamental to the impact of the organization.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: May I just draw your attention to a question from Augusto?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: I Augusto, would you like to put your question up, please?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_08: Yes, thank you.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_08: Thank you very much.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_08: Rebecca, that's was fantastic.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_08: Thanks.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_08: My question is if you can further explain the role of the former CEO, particularly if it's a founder, he or she's a founder.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_08: I found it quite problematic that because it could be good, because it could find the new CEO or the board could find some support or some, but it could be really problematic for the new CEO because if he or she is still around, you can never set up the new lines.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_08: So if you can explain from your experience what's best or how what to do, because we're in the middle of one of these transitions and it's quite complicated.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_08: Thank you.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: I can see it going very badly often.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: The one that I talked about, where the very charismatic CEO handed over to the accountant, it was difficult for a while.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: And it is testament, I think, to the new CEO and their temperament, how calm they are that it worked.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: But it wasn't easy at the beginning because it is not easy to have somebody who is much more outward-facing and sparky than you are out there making speeches, and also really popping into the office and telling you how to run your business as well, sometimes.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: So it was not easy, and they had to do some very clear boundary setting.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: There's one happening now, which I think is quite smart.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: This is a good way to leave if you are the outgoing charismatic CEO.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: So charismatic CEO has just left.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: They have disappeared.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: So they disappeared before the major conference that their organization had to be at.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: So they were gone.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: So the new CEO became the face of the organization instantly on an international stage.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: And they've disappeared off to write a book.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: And they won't be talking to anybody for six months.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: They spent a long time communicating that they were going.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: They spent a long time working with the team.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: The new CEO came in and they were welcomed.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: And then the outgoing CEO has disappeared for six months and intends to come back and be useful on some kind of strategic fun things that the organization feels nobody else can do.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: And they'll do that, but it's lovely because the outgoing CEO has no ego at all.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: And that has worked beautifully.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: I think often it's quite hard to leave and leave something properly.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: Though I think of other organizations where it has happened, it often doesn't work terribly well.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: So one of my really good friends built an organization over 15 years and then felt it was the time for her to leave because she'd done as much as she could.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: She'd taken it as far as she could and handed over to somebody great, very thoughtful, very involved in the this is who the new person is, really approved of the new person, stepped back.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: And the new person came in and just never called my friend.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: Just didn't speak to her, didn't want anything to do with her.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: And my friend was heartbroken because she had stepped away, but she didn't expect to be bereaved.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: So that was very difficult.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that was, I think the new CEO has been there for five or six years now, has done a really good job.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: But I think the new CEO was frightened of being in the shadow of the founder.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe that heartbreak was, I think it could have been handled better.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: It could have been done much more sensitively.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: But probably that you need to go and I need to not have you around because it will make my job as the new CEO.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think that conversation should have been had.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: And it I think it wasn't.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: So some former CEOs can stay around and some can't, I think.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_11: That's probably what it amounts to.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: Augusto, knowing that you're right in the middle of it, please keep us in touch with how things are going.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: But we do have a sort of safe space to talk about those challenges because we all know how hard they are.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's it can be, as Rebecca said, both heartbreaking and financially stressful and all sorts of things.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: So please, if you need to talk about it, just make a call to Chris and we'll arrange something.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: What other questions have we got?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_11: Well, we had a couple of questions on the line.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_11: So let's bring Elaine first.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_07: This has been so helpful, Rebecca.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_07: I feel are you talking to me personally?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_07: This feels like the whole thing is just fabulous.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_07: But one of the things, the question I have, if you have words of wisdom, and I imagine Chris might have those some as well as others, is that I'm in this process of transitioning right now.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_07: And one of the things that's happening in the organization, they're having tremendous growth.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_07: And so it can make the ship a little bit wobbly.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_07: And so, any words of wisdom for me in terms of continuing with this transition when this huge growth is happening and wanting to again be in the sidelines.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_07: And yet there's part of me, as you all know, it's like my child going, Oh, we didn't know you were gonna have this happen to you.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_07: Maybe you need mom to come in.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_07: Of course, I'm trying to put the brakes on that thought that comes in my head.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_07: So, anyway, any words of wisdom.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_07: Do you have your successor?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_07: Yes.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_07: Yes.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_07: And he's done a great job.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_07: And he is, I would have to say, I'm like the charismatic leader, and he is quieter.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_07: But like the accountant, he's been fantastic and he's been in the role now for two years.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_07: So I've been slowly transitioning into the sidelines, doing the things, of course, that are fun that I'd like to do that I didn't have time to do when I was running the organization.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_07: So I think that's happening fairly well.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I would say, I guess, so it sounds like everything is fine.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's just that you're a bit bereaved.
• 24:46
  unknown: A little bit.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_07: Yes, you know how you've said, I have to let it go.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_07: And then I'm going, oh my gosh, this growth is tremendous.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_07: And I know it's difficult for him right now, for example.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_07: It's hard when all this new growth is happening, when he's just starting to take.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_07: Is he asking you for help?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_07: He sometimes does for some things, yes.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_07: But I really have tried to step back and he knows that I'm there if he would like to ask me a question.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_07: And we also have hired a outside consultant to work with him individually for the transition to also add an extra supportive measure for him.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: That sounds like you're doing the right things.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: It does sound like you're doing the right things and you ought to just continue doing them and not turn up in the office.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's probably right.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: As long as he knows he can call you.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, he does.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: As long as he can call you when he needs you and that you're there.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: I guess that's the best.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_07: That's the best, isn't it?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_07: I think so.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_07: I think it's just that there's been so many unexpected, kind of wonderful challenges that have happened that when he took over the realm, he didn't know, but I do think he has the support.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_07: But anyway, if there's any other ideas, please anyone send them our way so that we can.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: Do you have an official role still?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_07: Yes, I do have an official role, and I'm thinking about making it less official.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_07: That's what I'm in the process of doing right now.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_07: So I'm the director of innovation, which essentially means I can do almost anything I want to do to promote and be the ambassador for the organization.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_11: Thank you for that.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_11: Kat, you had a question.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_06: I do.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you, Rebecca, for your very organized presentation.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_06: It just covered a lot of ground.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_06: My question for funders is is there an ability to do more investment in actually creating a wider pool of CEOs?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_06: In the last few years, foundations have started funding organizations that did not exist before, that are basically more activist organizations, more grassroots, more community-based.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_06: And people know their constituencies very well, but they don't necessarily have that experience in actually being a CEO and running an organization.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_06: And that's something that I'm finding in the field that I work in more than we expected, because we didn't expect to get to this point because we were very new in the beginning.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_06: So I'm interested in what you have to say about that.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I'd say yes.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: I think your question is a really well-phrased one.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: So, like I'm involved, we're involved with a leadership program in the UK, which is about supporting, hopefully, helping grassroots organizations to build stronger leadership.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: Programs like that must exist.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: So it's not about growing the pool of CEOs, but it is about strengthening the resilience and ability of those who find themselves accidentally being CEOs, and which I think is more where you're coming from, isn't it?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: I think there should be more of it.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: I really feel like there's a there are a few organizations that do it, but not very many.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_06: As a first-generation CEO in the field that I'm in, our organization was the very first one to be funded in the US that does the work that we do.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_06: I call it the Dinah Ross and the Supreme syndrome, that we put a lot of investment in the leaders, and they get a lot of exposure and a lot of information, a lot of experiences that the people that they're working with don't get an opportunity to be exposed to.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, that really happens.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, and I'm really working with Ashoka to have a defend, the person, your associate director or whatever, into the Ashoka fellowship or the at least the experience.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I completely agree.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: And there are very few people in the social sector who get anything, and then all of the all there is gets put around a few CEOs, few leaders, and then the next level down who are brilliant get nothing.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: You're completely right.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: And there should be more.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_03: We were talking, so Andrea, you can actually talk to this better than me, but we were talking over lunch with somebody who runs a foundation who one of her team is an accredited coach, and they started because of that person, they started commissioning action learning sets for people who weren't the CEOs in their grantee partners, but people who were the next level down.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's a kind of cheap way of doing it.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: You are looking at six months of support for people who then may transition into having their own little group that meets up every week without professional support.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_03: And she said that's been really powerful.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I wonder whether that's those kind of things.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: But I learned about that three hours ago, so I'm sharing it for what it's worth.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: Andrea has been in an action learning set forever.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for mentioning that.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I just wonder if we could hear from Mary and one more question.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's okay.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you so much for this.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_05: I really appreciate all of these comments.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_05: I have, especially the one about having the CEO hang around, and I'm really glad we dug into that because so often they think this makes perfect sense.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you for that.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_05: I am right now, I'm a development person and I am transitioning.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_05: I was the interim director of development for crisis action, and I'm transitioning a development director who's official, and I'm gonna hang around as a consultant, and I'm a little worried.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_05: I don't want to usurp her power.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_05: So any thoughts on that would be just great.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_03: That's really tricky.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: I guess you have to step back and say, what would you like me to do?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: How can I help you?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: And for the first couple of weeks, you'll be able to do more, and then after that, you take on jobs.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: You have to just release your power, don't you?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think so.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_05: I think so.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_05: And I want to have a okay, back off day.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: Back off day.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: And also, where would you like me to be useful?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: What would you like me to do?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_03: Let me take some jobs and be invisible as well.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know whether you go into the office, but if you can be invisible from the office for a while and work from home, because the problem is with you being there and people having known you, they will come to you.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's the same, and that is not because they're trying to undermine the new person, it's just because they know you.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: May I quickly add to that, it's not just the new CEO finding their feet, it's you finding your feet outside your organization because that's another thing.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: It needs time to build your new life and focus.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's for you as well as for the organization.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: We'd love to hear from some youngers because we've got some wonderful youngers here.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if any of you have a question.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everybody.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: My name's Claire, I live in Edinburgh, I know Mel, and I literally this month publicly transitioned out of my CEO role where I've been leading an organization, probably conceived of it 20 years ago, and been leading that ever since.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm also not leaving entirely.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a bit of a junkie, I can't cut it out of my life, but uh get to remain part of the family and the team.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm enjoying hearing people talk about you get to choose the bits that you like the most and let go of some of the graft, let's call it that, shall we?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: How are you finding it and how is the new leadership finding it?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: The new leader has worked for me for five years, so we had a little what would it be like if I stay on how's that gonna be?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I tried to reassure her that to recognise amongst all of the people that may surround her, I have a very good idea of what being CEO is and how therefore one could best be enabled.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that does involve me getting involved sometimes and giving her plenty of space herself.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like many people have also put forward, where was the pension plan where I spent 20 years building up a social enterprise?
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Passion before profit and before our own well-being, I think, is a real lesson that hindsight teaches us.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: But funding a startup, I hear the talk about what could funders do, could actually make funding realistic for projects or just don't fund them.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: I just think that we are asking not just our leaders but our employees in the third sector to take on too much personal pain in order to deliver on our ambitions.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's with someone who's been very successful and is very happy with my career to date.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: We need to quickly get Wainwright and Graham in.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_09: Graham, did you have a question?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_09: Hi, I'm slightly different in that I run a small social enterprise consulting company, and I'm in a similar situation that's been described.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_09: My co-founder and I want to move to a sort of advisory part-time role.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_09: And we've been grooming three specific managers from our second line to take over and have been doing that and have been forcing them into the sort of front line of the corporate projection for want of a better description.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_09: But now this excellent session has made me quite scared about doing that because we're being told don't become board members, and that's exactly what we intended to do.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_09: So I'm wondering whether it's different or a sort of for-profit where frankly we own the shares, and what I propose to do is slowly transfer those shares to the three guys who are taking over from the two of us.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if it's any different at all, because effectively, if you stay on the board, you'll be line managing these poor people.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think you need to think about this quite hard, and it's a team discussion, isn't it?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: Seems to me like a kind of team off site coming up, kind of something like that.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_09: We've started this process last summer and don't intend to complete it for two, three years.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: I think you need to have a big discussion where you're not in the office about power and relationships and how those things can work best, because you've got a very clear idea of where you want to get to, which could be really positive.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: But I just worry that if you set up structures that don't support you in that, then it's just bad when things go wrong, especially when it's an organization you've built.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_11: Wayne Wright, over to you, sir.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Rebecca.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: So my name is Wayne Wright, and I run uh an educational organization in Liberia.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: We are improving learning outcomes.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: I am a three-year-old founder CEO and very insightful.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of these I've been thinking about.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: But the challenge is really when you're building newly, you're thinking about fundraising and building a team and building the programs.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: And especially if you work in a space that you're planning models, it's even increasingly difficult assistance approach you're taking.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think two questions.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: One is that at what point do you really start to think about the succession of the corporate governance structure that can help facilitate the long-term planning?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: And three years into us building our organization, we are still figuring out the very basic things in that regard.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the second question is at this point in time, is there a phase where you start to think about different parts of building the organization?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe the first five years you focus on a particular aspect, the next five years you focus on a particular aspect, or do you do them altogether?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of these questions I'm trying to disentangle.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so when to think about succession, honestly, you don't need to think about it now, but what you can do is think about running an organization that supports you and your staff.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: So some of those things that we talked about about what does it really cost to run the organization and building the real cost into funding bids.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_03: And that cost includes making sure people are supported.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: So, like my organization had, doesn't have now, but it used to have insurance so that it would the kind of basic costs of the organization would be continued if I broke my leg.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: Because at the early days, nobody could have kept it going.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: Now it would be fine.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: So we don't have that anymore.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I can't remember the second part of your question, Wayne.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: I got lost in the first part.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was asking what are the early priorities for a new founder or CEO and at their faces to think about organizations' priorities as you build along.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: In terms of succession, which we have to talk about today, we there are lots and lots of other things to think about.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: But in terms of succession, I would say so.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: Think about the costs and then think about that risk register thing that we spoke about.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: So make sure your board is thinking about you, because you are the risk.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: What happens to you?
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_03: And if something happened to you, what would happen to the organization?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: Who are the people around you?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: And can you at this stage, at three years in, five years in, be building that second layer that are really good, that really understand the impact, that really could run the organization, that understand the HR?
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: And once you've got those, that's expensive, I know, and it's hard to do early.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: But at the point that you can afford it, then having those people will A allow you to dream bigger and B will provide a bit of a safety net should something happen to you.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_11: Thank you for that.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_11: We are now pretty much out of time.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_11: Eva, did you want to just jump in with a very quick comment?
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_04: Just two things.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_04: I think the the comments about costing out are really important, very critical.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_04: I started something 20 years ago in 219.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_04: I stepped out.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_04: We had a new executive director.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_04: Did not turn out all that well.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_04: He actually left, and people found on social media that he did leave, which was interesting to hear your other example.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_04: But I'm on the board and I'm working hand in hand with an interim executive director to really get things straightened out.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_04: So as the founder, I'm working together with an interim ED, and it's actually working very well.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's really all a question of personalities and egos.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_04: And if you can do it and step away from your ego and just do it to help the organization transition, it's not a problem.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_03: I completely agree.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_03: And we talked about that, didn't we?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: The kind of egos, like understanding your need to be in the limelight, not.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_04: It's really important.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_04: It's about respect for the organization as well, because if you really wanted to survive, because I'm not going to be around, and hopefully it will be around.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_11: Thank you, Eva.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_11: So there we are.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_11: If you have any further questions, which we didn't get sorted out today, do send them on, and that'll be great.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_11: And if you haven't become a member or an associate member of the Elders Council, what are you doing?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_11: We need you to be members at once.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_11: And there's no cost, and there's a great deal of benefit to it.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's all upside.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_11: It's all upside, exactly.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_11: And you get to join a merry group such as we are.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_11: I just wanted on my part to say thank you, Andrea.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_11: I'm sure you'll want to come in.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: I thought that session was a thrill.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: What it makes me realize is just how important it is.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: And we are collecting all these pieces of wisdom to put on the website so we can gather the wisdom of all the people here.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Rebecca, so much for leading that and fielding everything.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: And thanks everyone for great questions.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: Really brilliant.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.