Latest / The Killscreen Podcast / The Dog, The War, & The Souls You Can't Save
Transcript
- Jamin Warren: You know, like to get like slightly better picture quality if I can, but, yeah. Alan Kwan: Yeah, yeah. Jamin Warren: Um, great. Well, thanks so much for making time to chat with me. I really appreciate it. Um, I’d love to I’d love to hear a bit about like your background and uh like how you made to made your way to like XR as a, you know, XR and uh... yeah, just interested in like how you like the path towards like making this game. Alan Kwan: Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, so I started making games in 2012 or 2011. Um, I was working on this project called uh Bad Trip. And basically at that time I was like very interested in the idea of lifelogging. So I had like a very small camera like attached to my glasses and it was recording all the time and I generated this database of like virtual memories. And I had like an experimentation of like making a 3D virtual world, uh, to contain all these memories. And then people can use a game controller to go to different places and watch my virtual memories. Um, that was kind of like my first game project like in 2012. And then I was trained as an artist and I loved making games, experimental games, immersive installations, and stuff like that. So I’ve been pretty much focusing on experimental games, VR installations, um, sometimes game performances, over the past past 13 years. And for this game Scent, um, I’ve been working on it since like 2018, uh, on and off. And then the concept like changed a lot over the past seven years and I finally finished it in June 2025. Jamin Warren: Okay. Alan Kwan: Um, so that’s kind of like a rough uh trajectory of the project. Jamin Warren: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, where uh, how did you get interested in games? Or like what do you remember what some of your earliest memories of like playing games when it, you know, occurred to you to start making them? Alan Kwan: Yeah, yeah, sure. Um, so now I work a lot with like games and I teach making games as well in Chicago. And then, uh, yeah, but when I was like a kid, when I was like a teenager, um, I wasn’t so much into games. Like games are like, to me, means a lot about like competitions and stuff. Um, it stressed me out. Um, I grew up in Hong Kong and then after high after school, like like in middle school, high school, I would hang out with my friends in this like game arcade center in Hong Kong. And I don’t enjoy playing them but I enjoy watching people play games. So to me it’s like some sort of like an experience like watching, almost like a cinematic experience of watching people play. And I and one afternoon like I saw this teenage couple playing like a racing arcade and then they were sitting next to each other. So it’s kind of like the boy was like driving, his girlfriend was like sitting right next to him. And when I was like watching like their screen, they were like just like hanging out seeing this like virtual sunset in Tokyo. And that was kind of inspiring because they were sitting in a way that is kind of like a real car, right? So it’s kind of like funny at the same time like they were not competing with computers, with other players, they just like hanging out. So that was kind of like an inspiring experience for me that game can be beyond puzzles and like stuff like that. It can be romantic, it can be poetic, it can be just a space like for like a virtual romantic experience. And I think that inspired me a lot. Um, yeah. And I also eventually I watched films, stuff. I studied my undergrad initially as like a filmmaker. And I kind of saw like some similarity between film and games. So my games are kind of like cinematic as well. Like they don’t focus a lot on like funny on like a fun mechanic and stuff. Um, yeah, and the same as like Scent as well. Jamin Warren: Um, in terms of like uh, like growing up in in Hong Kong, like what did gaming like look like in that context? I know it’s different from like place to place. So uh, um, yeah, was it like uh computer cafes or like uh, yeah, tell me a little bit about like that what the the scene was like for you. Alan Kwan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, in Hong Kong, when I was growing up, uh like computer cafes were like super popular. And then like our middle school, high school kids, um, would hang out in those cafes after school. And then I also grew up in like the era of like PlayStation 1, PlayStation 2 and stuff like that. And there were like a lot of like pirate game stores in the city. And then as like a kid, there was this experience of like going to those stores and just look at like the game covers, reading like the description and stuff and it was like a really enjoyable experience. Evoked a lot of like imagination about oh, what these games are and what the gameplay is like, stuff like that. So even without actually playing it, like that was like a really interesting experience for me to just like read like game covers and stuff like that. It’s a very different experience from like going to Steam right now and see trailers and stuff. Jamin Warren: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Were uh, were your parents uh like interested in games? What did your parents do? Alan Kwan: Yeah, so my mom is a banker. Um, she’s like a very logical person. Um, my dad is like, my dad is a romanticist. Like he teaches like in high school. He loves art, he loves film, and stuff like that. So, yeah, it’s kind of like this like um... my mom is logical, my dad is like romantic, artistic, stuff like that. So I grew up in that environment. Jamin Warren: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh, classic like left brain, right brain. It sounds like. Alan Kwan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jamin Warren: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, did uh, when did you leave Hong Kong? Or uh, I guess, you know, when did when did you make your way to to the US? Alan Kwan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I grew up in Hong Kong. I spent like 23 years there. And then I I did my undergrad in Hong Kong, uh focusing on interactive art. And then I moved to Boston, um to MIT for grad school. And then, yeah, and then I spent a couple of years there um, and then working as an independent artist between Boston, New Orleans, and Hong Kong after finishing grad school. And then around 2020, I moved back to Hong Kong um, like spent some time with family and stuff like that. And then I moved to Chicago in 2024 to join the School of the Art in the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, SAIC, as a professor. Jamin Warren: Yeah. What uh, what part of Hong Kong did you grow up in? I’ve been once but, you know, it was quite a long time ago. Alan Kwan: Oh really? Oh cool, cool. Yeah, I grew up on like the New Territories side. Um, my district is called Fotan. Okay. Um, yeah, it’s like a pretty interesting neighborhood. Like one side is all residential and the other side is all factory buildings with like a lot of like loft and artist studios and stuff like that. I grew up in like the residential side. Jamin Warren: Okay. Got it, got it. Oh, is that um, is that across with the ferry? Like across from the Star Star Ferry? Like from the downtown, the main downtown area? Alan Kwan: Uh, no. Um, it’s kind of like the suburbs. Um, yeah, like the Star Ferry side is like more like downtown, Hong Kong Island, Kowloon. Jamin Warren: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Alan Kwan: And which area uh were you in? Jamin Warren: Oh, jeez. Um, let’s see. I stayed, I’d have to look at a map. Hold on, let me look. I’m curious. Uh, I went in 2019. Actually, you know, it’s funny, not I guess not that long before you before you came back. Um, let’s see. Alan Kwan: Oh wow. Jamin Warren: I stayed... uh... I’m looking at the train line because I stayed like on I’m trying to remember which end of the which end of the which end of the island I stayed on. Uh... Oh yeah, I I guess I stayed... Oh jeez. Um... Oh gosh, I was looking at the wrong way. Okay. Yes, I stayed on the Sai Wan side. Um... Alan Kwan: Oh, Wan Chai? Oh, cool. Jamin Warren: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Towards Kennedy Town, I guess was the name of the neighborhood. Alan Kwan: Yeah, yeah. Jamin Warren: Um, uh, yeah. And so I just remember I, you know, I got to stay in one of the pencil high rises or whatever, the those uh pencil size skyscrapers and then um, and then yeah, got over to the Kowloon, the Kowloon side. And I did one day on the south side. Oh, I took a bus, I think I took a bus down to Stanley um to go to the beach. Um... Alan Kwan: Oh, yeah, yeah. Jamin Warren: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I I had a really really good time. I mean I I lived in New York for for many, many years at at that point and so, um, you know, Hong Kong obviously shares a lot of uh a lot of similarities in terms of like the the density and uh but the relationship to nature was always like super was super interesting to me about Hong Kong. Now living in Los Angeles, like the LA is more spread out, but is much more in dialogue like with the mountains that are here. And Hong Kong kind of felt that way where you have this like city that’s like pushed up uh you know sort of like pushed all the way up against you know walking I took a hike to um, what is the name of that peak? Uh that overlooks the there’s a fit there’s like a shuttle that goes to the top. Um... Alan Kwan: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like The Peak. Jamin Warren: Uh, yes. I think it’s the yeah, the the Peak. Uh Victoria Peak. Alan Kwan: Yeah, yeah. Jamin Warren: Yeah, I mean I I hiked up there um on this like green this green trail section and uh it was just very strange to be like in nature, kind of like in and out of sky rises and then um in and out of like skyscrapers and then like getting to a mall at the like very at the very very top um uh at the top of like the tram station. So like I don’t know, Hong Kong is just like the urban geography of Hong Kong was like super interesting to me as, you know, as a as a visitor. So. Alan Kwan: Yeah. It’s extremely urban but yeah but actually like a big portion of like the city are country parks and mountains and ocean. It’s beautiful. Jamin Warren: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, well, um I guess, you know, I want to talk to you about, you know, I um I want to just spend some time talking to you um uh you know about your about your game work. You know specifically with Scent, um, what was like the initial seed for for Scent like as a as a project? Alan Kwan: Yeah, so this project has like... So for most of like my other games and project like usually like I try to seek like grants and then try to find like funders and stuff. But for Scent—oh sorry. Yeah, so for Scent um it has absolutely no budget. It’s like a very personal project. Jamin Warren: Right. Alan Kwan: And then um the seed for that was um initially um it’s a it’s like a winding like path of development. So like initially like eight years ago, like my dad had some problems with his eyes. And then like the doctor said that uh his like uh field of vision is going to shrink over time and then eventually he would become blind. And then at that time, I was reading a lot about like computer vision and like stuff like that. And also of course there’s this emotional aspect of like my dad like like very slowly losing vision, right? So at that time I was like envisioning sort of like a sci-fi game that you play as like a robotic dog. And then and then um there are like some conflicts between like the computer vision system and the batteries and like the hardware and stuff like that. And then like the parts in the robot start failing and then like you gradually loses like the sensory systems and like the vision as like a metaphor for how humans like uh lose their physical function and stuff like that. So that was like the original idea. And then like it’s a very it’s like a very personal project and then I did a lot of experiments and then it ended up became like a real like animal like dog. And then seeing like the global situation, so it slowly became like seeing human brutality and violence from the perspective of like an animal. So there’s no like clear uh narrative about where this war is, what the geography where the geography is, who are these people fighting with each other. But then it becomes like a sensory like physical experience of like uh just uh witnessing human brutality and violence. Jamin Warren: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh was that something that you were, was there a particular conflict that you were that kind of sparked this or that got you thinking about this? Alan Kwan: Yeah, for me like this is like... Well since like this game is like a fictional war. Jamin Warren: Right. Alan Kwan: It’s like a compilation of like personal experiences, what I’m seeing like from like media and things like that. So I’m not like referencing like a specific war in like the real world. Um, yeah. Jamin Warren: Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean I ask because, you know, when did you start the project again? It’s been what was the what was the first year you started it? Alan Kwan: Is uh 2018. Jamin Warren: Okay. Yeah, I mean I guess I feel like in the public imagination uh like war and conflict, you know certainly with Ukraine and then again in Gaza, like um and now in Sudan as well, like uh I feel like in the news we kind of go in and out of these, you know, in and out of uh having uh warfare be uh part of the public consciousness and part of the our public anxieties and that’s not always true. Um, but but certainly I think is interesting that you were working on this, I feel like uh like you know it’s hard it was hard for me to sort of ignore you know playing that game now in 2025 even if that was not your intent. It definitely feels uh like a very present uh a very present concern. Um. Alan Kwan: Yeah. Yeah, totally. I do want to like create this space like for people like to put in their own imaginations and relate to what they are uh experiencing in the real world. Jamin Warren: Right. Alan Kwan: Or from the news and stuff. Yeah. Jamin Warren: Right, right. Yeah, I mean I guess at the same time it’s like if you had chosen a specific, like that’s a weird it is like this weird thing where it’s like um because the documentary category doesn’t really exist in games, right? Like like in film you have uh you know there’s there was like fictional there’s like uh you know narrative non-fiction that might be set in a particular time and place uh or you might have like straight documentary. And in games um you have almost neither. It’s like neither neither are things like set in like real world environments nor do we have uh like you know documentary as a as like a form in games. And so I think is interesting that yeah, I mean you sort of are in the position where you know players are projecting a certain level of uh yeah just because games don’t provide currently don’t provide like that option. Um, yeah. Alan Kwan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I’m also very interested in like whether this project is like a game like to like I feel like from like an intellectual standpoint I see it more as like an interactive cinematic experience more than like a game like game. Jamin Warren: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean I’m not I’m not picky. Like I guess in terms of I I’m not I’m happy to have like a more expansive like category. Um. Alan Kwan: Oh yeah, yeah. Jamin Warren: Yeah, having lived through like the game not a game uh uh yeah yeah yeah. But it is interesting to hear you say that. Is there do you have some is there some anxiety for you in terms of like labeling something a game when you take it out to the public versus like interactive experience? Alan Kwan: Yeah, um I don’t have like anxiety. But I do, it made me think more when I have my games like play by like kids and like teenagers and those kind of questions like come up a lot. And they asked me if this is like a slow game, where the enemies, like and stuff like that. So like in like the intellectual sphere, like people deal with those questions like a many years ago. But it’s like fun to talk to students about that. Jamin Warren: And things like that. Um, yeah, um, could you walk me through like um what the like what the design was like? Um like how you were trying to pace out the experience and um yeah what the prototyping experience was like for developing something like this. Because it’s on a rail. Um, you know, it the game is is on a rail with you know some interactive elements but yeah how did you go about thinking through what you wanted players to do when you were playing when you were putting this together? Alan Kwan: Yeah. I think like a couple of things. Um, I have been pretty interested in like immersive cinematic games. And then um but those games like are usually very long and like usually like triple A games and stuff like that. So I have been curious about like making like short cinematic games as like a format. Um, so I borrowed like a lot of like sensory language like from commercial games. Like um relatively high fidelity like computer graphics, immersive spatial sound, and like occasionally cinematic action sequences, like and stuff like that. But at the same time I used some of these um commercial game languages but I do want to reject sort of like the reward system from like games and stuff like that. Um, so and regarding like the on the rail like system. Like I think the whole concept of this project is about like you witness without power. Like in most commercial games, like lots of games, like you have like superhuman abilities and stuff like that. Like you have open world and you change the world in some ways. But for most of my games, especially this game, the main character is very fragile. And you have very limited control over like the fate. So I picked this kind of like an on the rail experience. Like you’re still in this world, is still kind of like an interactive work, but at the same time you have like very limited control over like the destiny and you are forced to witness these things happening around you. And that’s why it’s kind of this kind of like on the rail experience. At the same time I want to make it accessible to people. I feel like that just from like my personal experience, like sometimes when I show games in galleries and stuff, like a lot of people refuse sometimes to get used to like an Xbox controller. Um it’s like a very simple problem but the problem does exist. So I do want to make like a work that only use like two keys and a bit like a mouse. So to minimize uh like the learning curve. Especially if the game is so short, I think I think it’s kind of uh like unnecessary. So and then for like the visuals or like the flow of the work, like conceptually I want to move like from like the human world from the war to like nature. Like it start with like seeing humans like fighting against each other and then like you move like slowly to like the animal world to like spirituality from physical survival to like nature and spirituality. And then that’s like the overall like flow. And then you have like a bit of like stealth mechanic in the beginning that you want to survive and then that mechanic like slowly uh like uh disappear as well. Moving to like the spiritual realm. Um and then cinem—and then cinematically, like how I structure like the whole thing, kind of like a long take. That you follow like the back of like the dog and you are witnessing things happening around you. So in some ways it’s kind of like an interactive 360 video that you just look around and walk and witness and hide. Jamin Warren: Hmm. Yeah, it starts with this like moment of, you know you’re kind of like in and out of uh in and out of reality. It starts with this kind of like uh like surrealist moment with you know that giant that giant elephant kind of like emerging. Um, yeah, I mean do you sort of think of um yeah how much of the like the characters are like uh representational versus like metaphorical? Yeah I’m just curious, like do they are they named in your like as you’re thinking about uh you know is there um yeah is there um I don’t know narrative or backstory for kind of like what what’s happening here? Because you provide so little. And so I’m curious whether even if that’s not explicit, you know whether that is something that um sort of informs how you want the work to to be experienced. Alan Kwan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like I chose the main character as like the dog because um like in in this experience like you collected like the souls, right? Like the suffering souls like from like the dead. And then uh like the game provides no answer in like whether you’re like trying to bring them out of this world or like stuff like that. But for most of like the experience, you’re just trying to be with this souls. And then when they die, they’re very anxious because it was like a gunshot like or something. And then you just like stay with them. So like the dog is kind of like a companion like to all this uh suffering souls and stuff like that. And then as you collected these souls near the end of the experience, they still got uh wrenched away by like the ravens, stuff like that. But there’s like still like war in like nature. Like the nature is still like brutal and violent as well. So um that’s like part of like the ravens like scene. And then like the elephant to me just like a symbol of like wisdom and like strength and spirituality as well. So it’s kind of like the game offers uh no answer to how to end like violence and stuff like that. But you can but you have like hope and you want to find an answer in the dream of like an elephant. So as the elephant like sleeps, like the soul rises. Like and stuff like that. Jamin Warren: Yeah. Yeah, that’s an interesting point about like uh you know not to uh like anthropomorphize too much the the animal creatures that they they in themselves are in a combative, they they themselves are also like locked in some type of um like I guess the you know the the the conflict of nature is just as inscrutable to us as conflict between humans is inscrutable to to animals. So it was interesting to see that kind of like pull um like pull kind of like full full circle. Um uh yeah I mean the other part I thought was just interesting was um you know the decision to have so much of the like the violence happen you know kind of like off screen. You’re often coming across like humans who are suffering or there are gunshots in the distance but like you know so much of it’s like implied in terms of like what’s happening in that sequence obviously where you come across the the mass grave um you know with all of those souls together. So there is like a horror that is implied, is is sort of implied there. Um games tend to not be a very subtle art form. So I you know I was curious your about your decision to say like I’m going to have so much of that kind of not be seen. Actually it made me think of um like Zone of Interest, you know kind of like works on that register where like there’s there’s so much there’s so much violence that’s happening in that film um that is uh that is off screen because you sort of know, you sort of you like know the horrors of the Holocaust so you don’t need to like showcase it in a in a like explicit way. So, yeah, just curious about that decision to kind of like um like kind of place the the violence in the background um for for players. Alan Kwan: Yeah, yeah. I think I think um yeah I think like in like I haven’t experienced like an actual war and stuff like that but in like chaotic situations, I feel like most of the time you don’t have like a clear visual sense of what is happening in front of you. Like there’s a lot that happens in the air and you hear like a sound like boom and boom and stuff like that. So I was trying to create this sort of like very sensory and visceral experience of being in like a very chaotic situations. And a lot of unpredictable sound and like things like that. And I think that would create like a more intense psychological experience than like showing a lot of people die in front of you like visually. Um, yeah. Um and I think also in terms of like sound as well like I’m like very interested in like the idea of like immersion. Like I did a lot of like uh haptics stuff you know back in grad school. But now I’m like very interested in using like very simple audio visual language to convey that kind of immersion. As the dog is like walking through the grass and how the body generate like sound with like the grass and like things like that. Like a lot of like very subtle elements can create that kind of like immersion and psychological anxiety. Um that’s what I was trying to do. Jamin Warren: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no that’s that’s um that’s interesting. Um well uh for your for your students, is there anything that like uh that you learned from developing the game that’s now you’re now trying to pass along to your uh to your students? Alan Kwan: Yeah, yeah. Like I actually like I learned a lot like from my students. I have like one of like my grad student like play my game. And one of like his like feedback is that, oh one of her feedback, is that like because it’s such like a linear experience, right? So in terms of like game programming, uh we uses this kind of uh trigger boxes in the game. So which means like if the dog walk into this uh invisible box, it will trigger that soldier like to come here and like fire gunshots and stuff like that, right? So and then if you don’t step into this box nothing uh will happen. So like this kind of trigger box like kind of like sensors, kind of like if you go to like an amusement park, if you go to like an haunted mansion in an amusement park, they have sensors to trigger light and sound, right? And then like one of like my students feedback is that like they don’t want to like start the game because like if you don’t step into these boxes, the war uh will not happen and stuff like that. So it’s kind of like I’m like kind of like intrigued, I’m always like intrigued at the way that they think about how this kind of system works and how that correlate with like conceptual elements. Because like if you don’t start this game, this fictional virtual war uh will not happen. I find that like philosophically pretty interesting. And I think like for like teaching about games, like my students like know a lot more about like new games like than me. And then we spend a lot of time playing new games in class. Like the first hour is always like uh we pass around like game controller, we look at the screen and then we like play and talk. And and then we do like picnics, you know stuff like that. So yeah, teaching is kind of fun. Jamin Warren: Yeah. That’s interesting. Yeah, I’m sure also for students like they come to class with a very like um, you know, people when when students take film class, you know, or they go take a art, you know, they take a painting class or whatever, they’re they’re learning as they go. And it’s like weird with games, I’m sure, that students have spent, you know, so much time like playing games have maybe some very specific thoughts about like how the medium is like supposed to work in a way that is probably different. Like you don’t come to film class being like, "Oh yeah, I finished the Sight and Sound 200 and like..." You know you like that’s not like that’s not really what happens. Uh so it’s interesting with games there’s a high literacy, a high literacy uh in one sense. Just like uh like they’ve spent a lot of time playing games even if they haven’t spent a lot of time thinking about games um like as a medium. Alan Kwan: Yeah, totally, totally. And also like I have like a lot of uh international students as well as well. And then in China, they don’t have like a console culture. And then um so like the way that that they interact with games is like very different like depending on their culture. Jamin Warren: Yeah. Yeah, no that’s a good that’s a good point. Cool. All right, well thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Alan Kwan: Yeah, thank you. It’s great to... If you visit uh Chicago or something, uh let me know. Jamin Warren: Oh, yeah, of course. Um yeah, I found the the experience like honestly pretty pretty moving. Um um yeah, pretty moving. You know I think games at different points in time have um tried to experiment with um like showing the like the horrors of war and um they struggle, I think they they they they struggle with um because it’s typically like in action environments, it’s like you know they’ve often struggled with um like showcasing that in a way because you get locked up in like having to pull players through like with mechanics and that leads you in like a certain direction from a game design standpoint. So just like kind of stripping everything down and saying like just move through this space, um I found that to be like a pretty um a pretty arresting uh a pretty like arresting approach to thinking about um thinking about conflict, armed conflict. Alan Kwan: Yeah, thank you, thank you. Jamin Warren: Cool. Alan Kwan: Yeah. I’m trying to figure out like a way like to publish this game online. So like this is what I’m focusing on right now. Jamin Warren: Mm. Yeah, yeah, no it’s uh I think short games also, you know you like that’s what I want to see more of. It’s like you don’t need like if it’s if if it you know if the purpose of you know like art is to like provoke the senses, you know it’s it’s not tied to length. It can be tied to length, but is not a prerequisite. So I’m always very interested in things that can be um like moving or get you to think um you know get get you to to think immediately that don’t require like you know 25 hours to like pull you through. So um but yeah getting those types of things out to the public is obviously like a different story. So. Alan Kwan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. And then um I’m pretty interested in like cloud streaming like these days. I just wonder if the game can be rendered on the cloud and people just need like a browser to play. Um so that I can remove that connection with like the expectations on like Steam and stuff like that. But I’m still like trying to learn. Jamin Warren: Yeah, Steam is um it’s a strange strange audience. They have very specific expectations. So uh yeah. Cool. All right, well thanks again. Alan Kwan: Yeah, thank you.