Latest / Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour / How To Hear Your Child Without Fixing

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How To Hear Your Child Without Fixing · Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, this is Kim Lee, Child and Adolescent Psychotherapist, and this is the next episode in the series entitled I Wish My Parents Would.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I did a an interim podcast on the subject of why I do these podcasts.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess one of the benefits of doing that is to help people to understand what the motivation is and also to make very clear that we are talking about patterns, as I said, but we're also talking about uncomfortable subjects.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess in this series it's slightly different in as much as we're talking about what I would regard as the unspeakable.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: And when I say the unspeakable, I mean the words that the child can't speak.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: And why I do this is because in the consulting room very often they can.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: And some of the things they say are really quite powerful.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: They may talk about things that are happening in the present, but often they'll talk about things that have happened in the past that they've never told anyone else about.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so in this episode, I'm going to I'm going to focus on a concept which is the sort of having to do with listening without trying to fix some things I've heard.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I start telling them something before I finished, they're telling me what to do.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they say it happened to you when you were young.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: That was a long time ago.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then we're talking about you.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: But it makes you feel like what you remember, your experiences.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: I know they want to help, but I haven't told them the worst bit yet.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still trying to work out how to say it.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then they tell me what I should do so quickly without hearing anything, I start to feel stupid for finding it difficult.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I say, Oh, it doesn't matter.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: But it does.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: I wish they would just listen rather than just try and make it better.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now, these are the opening the opening words of what are from an imagined child's voice.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: However, in many ways, they're a kind of slightly diluted version of the source of things that I hear.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: But they express something that can happen between a worried or frightened or traumatized child and a loving parent, even when both are trying to find their way towards one another.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: For married parents, hearing that their child is unhappy, fearful, struggling brings an immediate an immediate urge to act.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: We want to deal with things, we want to intervene, we want to make it better, we want to make a phone call to a teacher or to somebody else and explain the misunderstanding, find the answer.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, yes, action is needed.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: But there can be a moment before we know enough to act when our child simply needs us to listen.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that moment can be surprisingly difficult to hear.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine your child comes home and says, Nobody likes me.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know that can't be the whole picture.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: You remember the birthday invitation, the friend who came around last weekend, the child who called for them yesterday.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: So you answer, Of course, people like you.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: What about the other person?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: The child says you don't understand.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: You feel frustrated because you're trying to reassure them, and they feel frustrated too.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: They were trying to tell you how lonely they felt.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: The conversation has become an argument about whether their words are accurate.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the experience behind those words remains unexplored.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody likes me might mean sometimes I I care about or someone I care about rejected me today.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know where I belong.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to be with people.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: I keep getting left out and I'm frightened it's going to happen again.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we only discover what it means for the child by giving them room to tell us.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: I talk about this as being the space for the child to step into.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And in order for that space to be stepped into, you have to stand still.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hard and still required.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: So a response might be, okay, something happened today.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And can you tell me about it?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to get the wording exactly right.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: We're making an opening, and the child says yes.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And they might say no, that's not it.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Either response gives us somewhere to begin.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, as I've said to children, I can see that you you want me to know something, but you're not ready to say what it is.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we rush towards an answer.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because a child's distress can dis can stir very powerful feelings in a parent.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: We might feel helpless, we might worry, maybe we've missed something, maybe it's that it touches something in our own childhood.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is what's meant by resonance, something external touching something internal.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: And particularly the times when we have been in situations where nobody heard us.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: We might also be exhausted.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we we might be uh struggling just to spin the plates and make sure they don't fall off and crash to the floor.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes parents say, Don't worry about it, just ignore them.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: You're overthinking.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: For a moment, these words may help us feel that we've offered something useful.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: But we need to notice what happens next.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Does the child understand?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Do they say more?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Or do they become quiet in a way that suggests they've given up trying?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Silence after reassurance can mean several things.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to be curious about it.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the parent feels the matter is settled while the child feels like the conversation is over.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Children don't always begin with the thing that matters most.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: They may start with a complaint about something, lunch, a broken pencil, or someone taking their siege.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Things which are seemingly innocent.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: A teenager may mention something troubling while looking at their phone, apparently uninterested in your response.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: They may be testing whether there is room for more.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: If we dismiss the first part, we may never hear the rest.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: You can't get upset over every little thing, you might say.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Just sit somewhere else, you might say.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't you tell the teacher?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: You might say.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now each response may make sense to the adult, but the child may still be approaching the part about feeling and being humiliated, threatened, or repeatedly excluded by their peers.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Listening means allowing the story to unfold before deciding what kind of story it is.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes a useful question is simply what happened then?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's what was that like?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes the child needs us to stop asking questions completely and just let them find the words.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's a particular kind of loneliness in not being given an answer to a problem you haven't yet managed to describe.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: A child may leave that conversation with perfectly sensible advice.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: They may still feel alone with what's happened.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Parents sometimes worry that listening will mean agreeing with everything their child says.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: So what?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Suppose a child shouts, I hate my brother, I wish he was dead.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: We can hear the anger without accepting cruelty or allowing anyone to be hurt.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I know you're very angry, and I know you want to do those things, and of course you can't.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me what happened.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: That response holds two things together.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: The feelings can be spoken about, and the behavior has a boundary.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the same applies when a child feels wronged.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: We can listen carefully without immediately deciding that their account contains every part of the situation.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds rough.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: What happened?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Understanding helps us to develop what we're hearing, and it can develop into something that makes it possible both for the child and the adult to think about.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's no need to cross-examine, particularly if the child is distressed, in order to remain thoughtful.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And we we don't have to promise agreement before we offer care.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what it's like, that's not what it's about.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: A child says they were embarrassed in class, and maybe we remember something similar and beginning with, ah, now that happened to me when I was your age, and that's really helpful.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Sharing an experience can sometimes help.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: It can also show a child that we recognize something of what you're describing or what they're describing, but we should also notice how long we remain in our own story.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Have we returned to theirs?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Have we become so certain that we know the feeling that we've stopped asking what it was like for them?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things I often say is, and what I often think is, and I have to remind myself of, particularly in the consulting room, is I hear things that I can identify with because they may be similar to things I've experienced.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: I would never say, I know how you feel, because I don't.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: I know how I felt, but I don't know how they feel.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the moment I start introducing my own feelings, I'm overriding theirs.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, perhaps our embarrassment in our own situation passed quickly.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps theirs has continued for weeks or even months.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps when we say, ah, well, this is what I experienced and this is what I did, well, how does how does that help?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: You might think it's advice and it may be well intended, but it may be that the child that you're saying that to feels like I can't do that, therefore I'm a failure.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: My parent knows what to do, and I don't, and therefore that's why these things are happening.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's a whole lot of there's there are a number of ways of approaching a child's experience without relying on our own.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Some children find a face-to-face conversation uncomfortable, particularly when they're already feeling exposed.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: They may speak more easily while drawing, walking, traveling in the car or doing something alongside us.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: A child may say very little and still need our company.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that connection matters.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we need to say, you don't have to explain it all now.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: We can do it in bits.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: For a teenager, we might say, I'm here when you need me.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then we need to be around in a way they can use.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't require constant availability because parents have limits and responsibilities.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: If the timing is difficult, we can be clear and reliable.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: I want to do this properly, I do want to hear you.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: I just need ten minutes to finish what I'm doing.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And what matters is the returning.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: A promise to listen becomes meaningful when the child experiences as people who keep those promises.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: After a child has had some room to speak, there may be something useful to do.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: We can ask, we could think about this together about what might help.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: We might also say, is there something you want or need me to do?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes children will say no.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because actually, well, they they might not say, but they what they're wanting is just to be heard.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: And in the hearing, you're doing something.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: But you may not need any more action than that.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: You might say, shall we keep an eye on this?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because it may be that you might need some, you might need a bit of backup with this.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: In a sense, what you're saying is two things there.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're hearing and appreciating your understanding, but you're also saying you don't have to do this all on your own.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: But you're and so what you're doing is you're reinsuring and you are identifying the child's agency.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes children come back and say, I dealt with that, I did this and I did that, or that stopped, and I did.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you sort of think, well, they did that.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's because all you've done is to listen and to acknowledge.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's made it real, they're not doing anything wrong.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: You are validating without any other kind of action.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: We can also recognize effort without pretending that everything will be easy.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that sounds like that is difficult.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be a tough one to get through.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: You can do it, I'm sure, but it it it I know it's not gonna be easy or it isn't easy.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: But then if a child describes being harmed, threatened, or unsafe, listening needs to lead to protective action.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to explain as clearly as we can that what we need to do and involve them as far as possible.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: You've told me something serious, and it really is serious, and I take it seriously.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna talk about this with you a bit more in terms of what we do next, because I want to help you with this.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Listening continues while we act.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: There are going to be times when we respond too quickly.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: We offer advice before hearing the story.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: We minimize something that later turns out to have mattered deeply, and then we might give ourselves a hard time for having done so.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the thing we can go back.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: We can say, I've been thinking about what you said, and I don't think I'll let you tell me the whole story.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't understand, and that was because I didn't let it happen.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And when I said don't worry, I think I made it harder for you to explain why you were worried.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you still want to tell me, I'd like to listen.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: They may be ready, they may need time, but the invitation matters.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so does what we do when they take it up.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps the child's wish beneath this episode is let me finish.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Let me be upset without feeling that.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to know the answer straight away.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes when you react too quickly, it makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know the words, and I need to know that when I find them, you can hear them and you can cope.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: When you think about it, sometimes in our efforts to help a child, we close them down.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now please don't hear this as a criticism.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because the motivation behind it is good.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly the motivation isn't to close them down.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: But if you can't tolerate what they're telling you, it means they're not going to learn to tolerate it either.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: I do hope this is helpful.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard, it's very hard.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I speak as someone who has had to learn this.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Every day in my work, I have to practice it.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I hear things which arouse very strong feelings in me sometimes.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: These are normally to do with harm and injustice or just the pain of seeing a child or young parent being caught in a sorry, a child or young person being caught in an impossible situation, seeing the pain, imagining and picturing the situations that they describe that cause that.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I know it works.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's hard, but think of yourself as an adult.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: If it's not possible for you to say everything you need to say without someone coming in and trying to fix it and close you down, it's not gonna help.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Children are no different.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: The hidden value of listening to a child rather than fixing a child is considerable.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: You will see that benefit when they become parents, or at least I hope so.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.