Latest / Tom's Hirschsprung's Podcast / Episode 55 - With Hannah Davis (Part 2)

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Episode 55 - With Hannah Davis (Part 2) · Tom's Hirschsprung's Podcast

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Speaker 1: You are listening to Tom's Hirshprung's Podcast, where our provide
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Speaker 1: a look into the remarkable experiences of the most inspiring
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Speaker 1: people around Hirshprung's disease and sports. Hello and welcome to
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Speaker 1: episode fifty five of Tom's Hirshprung's Podcast. I'm joined once
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Speaker 1: again by Hannah Davis. Hannah, welcome back. So we didn't
0:51
Speaker 1: get time last time to talk about probably the juicier
0:57
Speaker 1: bits of the story do with your son Jasper, which
1:02
Speaker 1: we talked a lot in the last episode about his
1:05
Speaker 1: diagnosis or eventual diagnosis, and I imagine we'll get to
1:09
Speaker 1: that in a bit later on as well, and we
1:12
Speaker 1: talked a lot about how he is now, what he's
1:15
Speaker 1: doing now, how he's so sporty, and how he's thriving academically.
1:19
Speaker 1: But today we are going to go through the legal fight.
1:25
Speaker 1: I guess that you had a long, long legal fight
1:31
Speaker 1: that you had with the NHS, and I won't spoil
1:35
Speaker 1: the outcome for everybody at the moment. They will have
1:37
Speaker 1: to listen towards the end. We know spoilers, But yeah,
1:43
Speaker 1: the long legal fight you had with the with the NHS,
1:46
Speaker 1: your fight for for Jasper really and fight for advocacy.
1:52
Speaker 1: So we ended the last episode. I know we sort
1:55
Speaker 1: of skipped ahead a little bit in time, so we'll
1:57
Speaker 1: take it back really too. You've been through the diagnosis
2:03
Speaker 1: eventual diagnosis, You've had seen multiple hospital visits and lots
2:09
Speaker 1: of illness and talks that's gone to all manner of
2:12
Speaker 1: different hospitals. When did you start to think, actually, I
2:19
Speaker 1: really want some sort of recompense or some sort of
2:23
Speaker 1: apology or or something from the NHS.
2:29
Speaker 2: It was. It all kind of started when we actually
2:33
Speaker 2: got the diagnosis, and I was so angry at the
2:39
Speaker 2: team at Brighton, in particular that one surgeon. I really
2:45
Speaker 2: had it in my head that he had personally caused
2:51
Speaker 2: just two years more pain and sort of failure what
2:57
Speaker 2: they called just the failure to thrive. And in my
3:00
Speaker 2: head he had personally caused that. And I'm sure that's
3:04
Speaker 2: not the case. It's a system yadiyada, but I was like,
3:08
Speaker 2: I want him to say sorry. So I emailed the
3:13
Speaker 2: hospital addressed it to him, emailed basically any email address
3:18
Speaker 2: I could find that would would get to him. So like,
3:21
Speaker 2: that's a pediatric one. There was a gastro one. There
3:25
Speaker 2: was an ame one. So I was like firing off
3:28
Speaker 2: these emails, just saying, like, in a friendly but firm way,
3:32
Speaker 2: so I ignore my puppy in a friendly but firm way.
3:38
Speaker 2: You wrongly made choice that day, and this is how
3:41
Speaker 2: it has impacted my son's life. I want you to
3:44
Speaker 2: know that that decision you made on that day to
3:47
Speaker 2: not give him a bioxy for something that we had
3:50
Speaker 2: been sent to you for underlining the ambulance notes Hirshbrum's
3:56
Speaker 2: biopsy question mark. Your choice to not do that has
4:00
Speaker 2: cost my son two years, two and a half years
4:03
Speaker 2: of agony, and I want you to know you were wrong, basically.
4:09
Speaker 2: And so I fired off these emails and I got
4:13
Speaker 2: a reply saying he hadn't done anything wrong. Really sorry
4:19
Speaker 2: for Jasper's diagnosis, but no, we followed the nice guidelines.
4:24
Speaker 2: We did nothing wrong. And I was like, you are kidding,
4:29
Speaker 2: Like to me, it's so black and white. We went
4:33
Speaker 2: to you for a Hirshbrungs bioxy, you didn't do it
4:36
Speaker 2: and said he didn't have Hirshbrungs and he would be fine.
4:40
Speaker 2: He has Hirshbrungs and he hasn't been fine. Like to me,
4:43
Speaker 2: it was so black and White, so I obviously then
4:47
Speaker 2: he had annoyed me. So I then emailed his boss
4:52
Speaker 2: and his boss said, no, you did nothing wrong. You know,
4:56
Speaker 2: sorry that this happened to Shasper, but no, we follow
4:58
Speaker 2: the guidelines and it would have been reckless of us
5:01
Speaker 2: to do a biopsy. Well I think we can argue
5:04
Speaker 2: that probably isn't the case. So then I was like,
5:08
Speaker 2: at this point, steaming me angry, go to Oberdsman, which
5:13
Speaker 2: is something I didn't know existed, and my mom and
5:14
Speaker 2: dad being like, you could speak to the like health oberitsman.
5:18
Speaker 2: So I did that, wrote everything that had happened, and
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Speaker 2: the Oberdsman came back and said, no, he did nothing wrong.
5:24
Speaker 2: And at that point I was like, am I just
5:27
Speaker 2: like shouting into an empty echo chainber Like to me
5:33
Speaker 2: and my family, it was so clear, so obvious. Plus
5:39
Speaker 2: we had had someone from Sir George's being like, you
5:43
Speaker 2: do know that this is like gross negligence. You could
5:46
Speaker 2: sue the NHS for this, and me being like, oh
5:51
Speaker 2: well I hadn't, Like I didn't even know, like I
5:54
Speaker 2: was twenty six, Like I didn't know this is a thing.
6:00
Speaker 2: And I spoke to like my parents are quite not worldly.
6:07
Speaker 2: I like made some cell culture. They're a bit culture,
6:09
Speaker 2: but they're like quite clued up on things and they're
6:12
Speaker 2: very nice, Like my parents are quite generic Surrey conservatives.
6:17
Speaker 2: That just paints a picture which is exactly my parents.
6:19
Speaker 2: For all of their sins, they vote to Brexit. I
6:22
Speaker 2: know that's not my parents. I have to still love them,
6:25
Speaker 2: but you know, they're those people. And they were like,
6:29
Speaker 2: when you sue the NHS, it's not you're not suing
6:33
Speaker 2: a hospital, you're suing the trust of NHS. And they
6:37
Speaker 2: literally my dad was like, they literally have an entire
6:40
Speaker 2: budget for being sued, Like you're not going to take
6:43
Speaker 2: away from patients on the floor. You're not gonna like
6:47
Speaker 2: there is entire teams and pots of money that basically
6:51
Speaker 2: pay people off. And he was like, so don't because
6:56
Speaker 2: I was like, you know, the NHS, yes, they made
6:59
Speaker 2: a a bad choice, but they also saved Jasper's life
7:04
Speaker 2: and they stopped his bow from bursting and they have
7:07
Speaker 2: done this Stromer which has totally changed my son for
7:10
Speaker 2: the better. So it was quite a conflicted process and
7:20
Speaker 2: it all goes back to had they have just said sorry,
7:23
Speaker 2: we won't do it again in the future. What we'll
7:25
Speaker 2: do is we won't just follow these stupid nice guidelines.
7:29
Speaker 2: We will look at more cases more like just done
7:31
Speaker 2: something literally, just said like sorry, we got it wrong.
7:35
Speaker 2: We'll learn from this, because really I just didn't want
7:38
Speaker 2: other parents, other children to go through what we had
7:43
Speaker 2: gone through for the two and a half years. So
7:46
Speaker 2: that was kind of my head and I just kept saying.
7:49
Speaker 2: I was like, I just want them to say sorry,
7:51
Speaker 2: Like all I want is for them to say sorry,
7:55
Speaker 2: Like to me, that's such a big deal, and I
7:59
Speaker 2: just wanted them to know they got it wrong. It's
8:02
Speaker 2: okay to get things wrong like that happens, we're humans,
8:06
Speaker 2: but you need to learn from that. And the fact
8:07
Speaker 2: that they were so walls up we didn't do anything wrong,
8:11
Speaker 2: we're not saying sorry and we're not changing what we
8:13
Speaker 2: did to me, I was like, you're just going to
8:16
Speaker 2: do it to close with other kids then, Like that's
8:19
Speaker 2: kind of where my head was at. So then we
8:23
Speaker 2: spoke to my brother in law on John's side, who
8:28
Speaker 2: was older and wiser and I still really know as
8:31
Speaker 2: job is that he there's something to do with legal stuff,
8:33
Speaker 2: and they had stud the NHS, which I didn't know
8:38
Speaker 2: years prior from when my niece was born and they
8:41
Speaker 2: basically like scarred my niece loads. I think I think
8:46
Speaker 2: that's what had happened, Like there was something something had
8:49
Speaker 2: happened with my niece. So he was like, yeah, you
8:54
Speaker 2: totally could. Like this is the firm that I'm either
8:56
Speaker 2: consulting with or working with or something. I've spoken to them,
8:59
Speaker 2: they want to talk. So I was like, okay, so
9:02
Speaker 2: I spoke to the I'm gonna say owner of a
9:06
Speaker 2: law firm. I'm sure they're like a lawyer or they
9:08
Speaker 2: have like a title. But the person whose law firm
9:11
Speaker 2: was named after him. He called me and was like, hey,
9:16
Speaker 2: I've spoken to like your brother in law. Do you
9:20
Speaker 2: want to tell me, like what's happened. I basically recounted
9:24
Speaker 2: our podcast number one guy and went through everything, and
9:29
Speaker 2: he was like, I mean you definitely have a case.
9:33
Speaker 2: He was like, this is mad, basically again that they
9:36
Speaker 2: hadn't said sorry, and I was like, thank you, Like
9:40
Speaker 2: somebody is on the same page as me. So then
9:45
Speaker 2: we were like, well, let's sue the fuckers. Was basically
9:49
Speaker 2: where it got you purely like I didn't. Obviously, when
9:54
Speaker 2: you sue someone, you're like, well, who aren't going to
9:56
Speaker 2: be rich. That is not the case, and we are
9:57
Speaker 2: not rich. But I just desperately wanted them to admit
10:05
Speaker 2: that they had done something wrong. That would like I
10:07
Speaker 2: have just had it in my head. I was solely
10:10
Speaker 2: focused on this, and given I had a newborn, I
10:14
Speaker 2: had a kid that was I think at this stage
10:17
Speaker 2: Jasper had had his reversal as well. So we had
10:20
Speaker 2: waited a long time, and I was like, you know what, yes, Like,
10:25
Speaker 2: I think the obudsman is wrong. I think they are wrong,
10:29
Speaker 2: and other people that work in the NHS also think
10:33
Speaker 2: they are wrong. I'm going to basically prove a point,
10:37
Speaker 2: which is a terrible thing to do, but I'm a
10:39
Speaker 2: scorpio and that's in my mentality.
10:41
Speaker 1: Oh I think I think you have to. I think
10:44
Speaker 1: the thing that sort of strikes me as a word
10:47
Speaker 1: that strikes me then when you when you when you
10:49
Speaker 1: said about going through the chain of command and going
10:53
Speaker 1: through the surgeon then his boss, then the obdsman is arrogance.
10:58
Speaker 1: I think that's the word that that really really sticks
11:01
Speaker 1: out to me. It's kind of like, no, go away,
11:04
Speaker 1: we did nothing wrong. You don't know what you're talking about.
11:07
Speaker 1: I might be paraphrasing a little bit there.
11:10
Speaker 2: But no, it's the same guy that had written in
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Speaker 2: Jasper's medical notes over over cautious first time parent, I've
11:19
Speaker 2: said they need apple juice. It was the same guy,
11:22
Speaker 2: and I was like, no.
11:26
Speaker 1: No, no, exactly exactly. And I think it's and it
11:32
Speaker 1: can it can really stick with you when you go, actually,
11:35
Speaker 1: all I want because all you said, all you want
11:37
Speaker 1: is an apology or acknowledgment or is something, and then
11:42
Speaker 1: to learn absolutely absolutely, and you just don't want it
11:46
Speaker 1: happening to anybody else. You know, if if you by
11:50
Speaker 1: doing this can change something either in their mentality or
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Speaker 1: in their practices, that two years on the line, five
12:00
Speaker 1: years down the line, ten years down the line. Yeah,
12:02
Speaker 1: somebody else comes in presenting with hirshprung symptoms or similar
12:06
Speaker 1: symptoms to Jasper, and they go, oh, actually, we don't
12:10
Speaker 1: really want to get sued again, We're going to do this,
12:14
Speaker 1: and it makes them think twice. Then I think it's why. Yeah,
12:19
Speaker 1: I think it is very much worth it. And it's
12:22
Speaker 1: like you said, when you're speaking to your parents, it's
12:25
Speaker 1: not about going after the NHS or taking away from
12:31
Speaker 1: potential care because they're funding illegal something.
12:36
Speaker 2: Yeah.
12:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's absolutely right, because at the
12:39
Speaker 1: end of the day, it's it's about doing the right thing,
12:44
Speaker 1: and I think that's kind of all a lot of
12:46
Speaker 1: what it comes down to.
12:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was, it was a real like it was conflicted.
12:53
Speaker 2: It is definitely conflicted. And we talked about it a
12:57
Speaker 2: lot numerous times, and numerous people, including medical professionals, who
13:04
Speaker 2: were like, oh, honestly, we don't even And I was like, well,
13:06
Speaker 2: there'd be like a black market against his name for
13:08
Speaker 2: further care and they were like no, like we have
13:11
Speaker 2: no idea who sues everyone? And they were like often
13:14
Speaker 2: we do say to people like, you know, you should
13:17
Speaker 2: go further with this, and they were like it is
13:21
Speaker 2: a learning Like she was like, they need to know
13:24
Speaker 2: the person that told us to do it. So George's
13:27
Speaker 2: was like, they need to understand that this is wrong,
13:30
Speaker 2: like that it's so black and white. And that's what
13:32
Speaker 2: had kind of reinforced me being like it is black
13:36
Speaker 2: and white. And the fact that even the Obensman was like, nah,
13:40
Speaker 2: it's like, how how are we so on different pages
13:44
Speaker 2: Like I couldn't. I have no idea how the interweakings
13:48
Speaker 2: of the NHS work. And I know they have many
13:50
Speaker 2: positives and many flaws. We all know that, but I can't. Yeah,
13:56
Speaker 2: I can't pretend I know how all of that works.
14:00
Speaker 2: So it was a bit. Yeah, it was conflicted. But
14:03
Speaker 2: then I spoke to these lawyers who I wouldn't recommend.
14:06
Speaker 2: They weren't great, but I spoke to them and they
14:09
Speaker 2: were like, yeah, okay, let's let's crack on. Can you
14:12
Speaker 2: pay up front? And I was like, oh, so we
14:17
Speaker 2: did no win, no fee, which again means you know,
14:22
Speaker 2: our lot, my lot at the end would get minimal cash.
14:25
Speaker 2: And I was like, I don't care, Like I've never
14:28
Speaker 2: in my life been money driven at all, Like if
14:33
Speaker 2: I won the lottery, you'd have no idea, Like I'd
14:35
Speaker 2: still have a shitty car and live in an all
14:37
Speaker 2: right house. Like I'm not I'm not wired like that.
14:42
Speaker 2: So I was like, yeah, fine, let's do this, Like
14:44
Speaker 2: I don't care how we do it. I can't afford
14:46
Speaker 2: to pay you on a monthly retain egguse you guys
14:47
Speaker 2: are really expensive. Let's just fight. So it kind of
14:52
Speaker 2: it started, and it was a really, really really long
14:54
Speaker 2: process took probably two and a bit years. It was
15:02
Speaker 2: I found it quite draining because our legal team didn't
15:08
Speaker 2: really understand what Hirshbrung's was. They didn't understand what was
15:13
Speaker 2: normal with Hirshbrung, so they were trying to sue them
15:15
Speaker 2: for him having twenty five percent of visit in testine removed.
15:18
Speaker 2: And I was like, no, like that's like, that's not it.
15:21
Speaker 2: Like I kind of felt like they weren't listening. So
15:24
Speaker 2: I felt having in my mind trained as a nurse
15:28
Speaker 2: to look after my son, I feel like I then
15:30
Speaker 2: trained as a lawyer to look after our legal team.
15:33
Speaker 2: So I got his medical notes, so you can access
15:37
Speaker 2: your medical notes with Charles medical notes whenever you like.
15:42
Speaker 2: So I went to our GP and said I would
15:45
Speaker 2: like these. You don't have to give a reason. I
15:48
Speaker 2: didn't give a reason. They didn't ask. They were like, yeah, fine,
15:51
Speaker 2: got this like a foppy disc, No, not foppy disc,
15:56
Speaker 2: a CD disc, which I then couldn't use on my
15:59
Speaker 2: Mac so and I had to. I'm like walking around
16:01
Speaker 2: being like who has this old tech?
16:03
Speaker 1: Who uses a c deity or where it's.
16:09
Speaker 2: So then I got it all. I printed it all,
16:12
Speaker 2: and honestly, the notes that you get, like Jasper's file
16:16
Speaker 2: was like this thick. I looked at it and was
16:19
Speaker 2: like we have calls one one one quite a long times.
16:22
Speaker 2: Every one on one call is recorded in there. It's
16:25
Speaker 2: all typed up. Every GP appointment, like literally every interaction
16:30
Speaker 2: with the NHS is written down, which is both helpful
16:33
Speaker 2: and overwhelming. And that's when I saw our medical notes
16:37
Speaker 2: for like the guy Brighton, who I do not like,
16:41
Speaker 2: had written like, oh, worried first time parents, and there
16:48
Speaker 2: was it was quite eye opening some of the things
16:49
Speaker 2: because I guess they probably think we might not ever
16:52
Speaker 2: see what they write, so it's like they're always professional,
16:56
Speaker 2: but always quite to the point. So there was a
16:58
Speaker 2: few of like like overconcerned new mother and things like that,
17:04
Speaker 2: and it's like, oh, now you've really kissed me off.
17:08
Speaker 2: So it just kind of added fuel to the fire really,
17:11
Speaker 2: and I went through everything. I highlighted all of the
17:17
Speaker 2: bits that I thought were key, so things like the
17:19
Speaker 2: fact in our A and E notes, in our ambulance
17:23
Speaker 2: notes it had said from the lovely lady at Royal Sorry,
17:27
Speaker 2: it had said Hirshbrung's question mark biopsy underlined. And it's
17:33
Speaker 2: like to me that was quite key in the case.
17:35
Speaker 2: Another gastro specialist had sent us in an ambulance for
17:40
Speaker 2: one reason and one reason only. So all of these
17:44
Speaker 2: things and I'd kind of made nights of dates, sent
17:48
Speaker 2: everything over to the legal team, and I think they
17:51
Speaker 2: were also quite overwhelmed by the paperWe oh, don't eat
17:55
Speaker 2: more Christmas decorations, will I? No, No, she's gonna eat
18:00
Speaker 2: that bull bull And then yeah, So they looked through
18:06
Speaker 2: it and then they needed to get an opinion of
18:11
Speaker 2: another medical professional, so they were like, these are the surgeons,
18:17
Speaker 2: like the pediatric gastro surgeons that we're looking at, Like
18:22
Speaker 2: what hospitals basically haven't you been to? Because you need
18:25
Speaker 2: to make it as like not linked as possible. So
18:28
Speaker 2: we found a chap who was at Southampton Hospital and
18:34
Speaker 2: he knew obviously what Hirshbuns was and he was happy
18:38
Speaker 2: to look at the case. And then he came back
18:40
Speaker 2: with quite a wishy washy reply, and I was like,
18:45
Speaker 2: you guys are asking the wrong questions like this, you're
18:48
Speaker 2: again you're asking things that about Hirshbrungs, not about delayed diagnosis.
18:54
Speaker 2: So I kind of went through and was like, this
18:56
Speaker 2: is what you need to know. These nice guidelines which
19:01
Speaker 2: anyone who goes to task with the NHS will be
19:04
Speaker 2: given these nice guidelines are basically it kind of it
19:10
Speaker 2: gives you all gives the NHS team a sort of
19:15
Speaker 2: a list to follow, so it's like like, does the
19:18
Speaker 2: child do this? Does the child do this? It's like
19:20
Speaker 2: a tick list to then decide on how you treat
19:25
Speaker 2: that child. So these are the nice guidelines that had
19:28
Speaker 2: apparently been followed. So I was like, I found the
19:32
Speaker 2: nice guidelines and was like, these are the nice guidelines
19:35
Speaker 2: that they say they followed. Here is proof on every
19:38
Speaker 2: single one of them that they did not follow the
19:41
Speaker 2: nice guidelines. And I was like, these are what you
19:43
Speaker 2: need to be asking this random surgeon man. So they
19:47
Speaker 2: went back and asked him all the questions that I
19:49
Speaker 2: had kind of pushed for, and he then came back
19:52
Speaker 2: and was like, yes, it was gross negligence. You're right,
19:55
Speaker 2: like this this is as is. And then we had
20:00
Speaker 2: to wait some time to see. Obviously, with hirshbrungs, it's
20:04
Speaker 2: such a roller coaster and you never quite know what
20:08
Speaker 2: you're going to get. So we then had to wait
20:10
Speaker 2: for some time to see how Jasper's hirshbrung develops, how
20:15
Speaker 2: he develops as a little boy, what we can put
20:20
Speaker 2: his symptoms, and what's happened to him down to hirshbruns
20:24
Speaker 2: or what we can put down to late diagnosis, because
20:27
Speaker 2: it is not the NHS's fault that he has hirshbruns,
20:29
Speaker 2: It is not their fault that he had a stoma,
20:31
Speaker 2: none of that. Had he have had early diagnosis when
20:36
Speaker 2: but at birth, he might not have needed a stoma,
20:38
Speaker 2: we don't know. Because they're on a milk based diet.
20:40
Speaker 2: Obviously he was on food at this point, which is
20:43
Speaker 2: quite rock and roll. So it's all of these things
20:47
Speaker 2: and it was kind of separating out, and I felt
20:48
Speaker 2: like I did a lot of the legwork with that,
20:51
Speaker 2: with sort of my family being like, well, here's the paperwork.
20:55
Speaker 2: What do you think what would you put here? You know,
20:57
Speaker 2: our lawyers keep going for hirshbrungs related things because they're more,
21:01
Speaker 2: oh my god, you needed to have a stoma, or
21:03
Speaker 2: oh my god, you removed his intestine because you'll be
21:05
Speaker 2: your mistake, and it's like no, no, no, no, no
21:07
Speaker 2: no no, like trying to constantly sort of or compartmentalize things,
21:15
Speaker 2: and then they what else did they get? I had
21:18
Speaker 2: to send them images. They pushed back on quite a
21:21
Speaker 2: few things, so things like why had I waited like
21:25
Speaker 2: years to sue them, which I thought was ironic given
21:29
Speaker 2: how many times I had gone to hospital and been ignored.
21:34
Speaker 2: And obviously at this time I also had a newborn,
21:36
Speaker 2: so I had a kid who was a toddler with
21:39
Speaker 2: a stoma. I then had a newborn. I then had
21:42
Speaker 2: a kid that had reversal. The reversal then had gone wrong,
21:45
Speaker 2: and he was incredibly unwell. And when you got those
21:47
Speaker 2: medical notes, that was terrifying. That was probably knocking on
21:50
Speaker 2: death door. Also, he was then starting school and we
21:54
Speaker 2: were in COVID times, so it was like you're asking
21:58
Speaker 2: me why this is taking or why like are you
22:01
Speaker 2: kidding me? And then there was pushback on things like
22:06
Speaker 2: the time we had gone to Brighten in their ambulance,
22:11
Speaker 2: then that two weeks where we were still under bright
22:13
Speaker 2: and we hadn't been discharged, and he had had that
22:16
Speaker 2: kind of head toe covered in pooor our friend's house.
22:20
Speaker 2: All of that. They were like, well, have you got proof,
22:22
Speaker 2: like we need proof that he was poorly in that
22:26
Speaker 2: two weeks and then the surgeon signed him off saying
22:29
Speaker 2: he was thriving. What proof have you got that he wasn't?
22:33
Speaker 2: And I was like I have firstly documented Jasper Hirschbrun's
22:37
Speaker 2: on social media, so I have got stories saved on
22:40
Speaker 2: highlights in our archive. My husband does as well. I've
22:46
Speaker 2: also got like voice notes to my mum, which obviously
22:49
Speaker 2: everything is time and day stamped and you can't like falsify,
22:54
Speaker 2: or maybe you can with like photoshop or something, but
22:56
Speaker 2: I'm not skilled in that way. So I was like, okay,
23:02
Speaker 2: leave it with me. I'm like a fucking dog with
23:04
Speaker 2: a bone, I will find anything. I found messages to
23:07
Speaker 2: my granny in Australia detailing what had happened. There was
23:12
Speaker 2: messages between me and my mum. I then was obviously
23:14
Speaker 2: talking to my friend whose house it was, and I
23:16
Speaker 2: was like, can you look back? Have I text you
23:18
Speaker 2: about it? She was finding things where she had been like, honestly,
23:22
Speaker 2: don't worry, how's he doing now? Has he pooed? More
23:27
Speaker 2: like all of these questions insinuating something had happened. I
23:31
Speaker 2: went to like all of my best friends and was like,
23:34
Speaker 2: can you look between these dates and these dates on
23:37
Speaker 2: your WhatsApps and see if we've mentioned anything, if we've
23:41
Speaker 2: talked to you about it. So they were then sending things.
23:44
Speaker 2: It was like a real sort of team effort, like
23:46
Speaker 2: friends and family, like John's family, John's sister who works
23:52
Speaker 2: in the NHS, like all of these people. Her then
23:56
Speaker 2: sent things through which was so helpful, like, honestly, we
24:00
Speaker 2: we needed it everything again, time and date stamp. So
24:03
Speaker 2: it's like, there's no way if all of this communication
24:07
Speaker 2: happened within that two weeks around Jasper's illness. Are you
24:13
Speaker 2: then insinuating that I have gone to the surgeon and
24:17
Speaker 2: told him that he's been fined for the past two
24:19
Speaker 2: weeks when literally there's me messaging being like, we're going
24:23
Speaker 2: to go see that guy in two weeks, so we'll
24:25
Speaker 2: let him know and he'll hopefully help us. And it's
24:28
Speaker 2: like are you, Like, are you really then saying that
24:32
Speaker 2: I've gone there and been like, yeah, he's fine, nothing happened,
24:35
Speaker 2: He didn't pooh everywhere and literally swim in it like
24:38
Speaker 2: of course I would have said. So that really helped,
24:43
Speaker 2: And there were a few other instances where the NHS
24:46
Speaker 2: had pushed back saying, oh, no, you know, we had
24:48
Speaker 2: this six months where he was thriving, and it's like, okay,
24:52
Speaker 2: so we go back to that six months, and I
24:54
Speaker 2: guess for anyone trying to see anyone. It's really difficult
24:57
Speaker 2: now because everything is logged. It was like, okay, so
25:00
Speaker 2: scroll back. Nope, this is what happened. Annoyingly, I'd got
25:04
Speaker 2: a new phone at some point in this case, but
25:07
Speaker 2: my friends hadn't, so they still had the one way conversations.
25:11
Speaker 2: So it was like, oh, okay, this you know, six months
25:14
Speaker 2: where nothing happened. We were in this hospital, we went
25:17
Speaker 2: to this DP. Here we are talking to one on one.
25:20
Speaker 2: Here we are doing this like it's like there was
25:24
Speaker 2: never more than probably three weeks where we didn't need
25:27
Speaker 2: any medical intervention. And it was all yeah, there was
25:31
Speaker 2: a paper trail. So I then kind of built this
25:35
Speaker 2: folder of times and dates and I was putting everything
25:38
Speaker 2: in it to make it really organized, and there were
25:40
Speaker 2: let me and sticky notes, were like this, and went
25:45
Speaker 2: back to them and we're like, this is everything. Gave
25:48
Speaker 2: it again to that surgeon who was consulting on the case,
25:51
Speaker 2: and he was like, oh my god, like right, this
25:56
Speaker 2: is what we need to go for them. Go to
25:58
Speaker 2: them with. So I think out of we went to
26:02
Speaker 2: them with a counts of negligence. So it wasn't just
26:04
Speaker 2: Brighton man, I would argue, it was buff They were like,
26:09
Speaker 2: you know, you were let down by the GP right
26:11
Speaker 2: at the beginning. You were let down by Royal Surrey
26:14
Speaker 2: because you'd been there so many times and at any
26:17
Speaker 2: point they could have referred you a second time and
26:20
Speaker 2: they and they didn't. And and I love our local hospital,
26:23
Speaker 2: and I think they were put between a rock and
26:27
Speaker 2: a hard place. But yeah, on paper, they could have.
26:30
Speaker 2: But I do understand they were. I'd certainly feel like
26:34
Speaker 2: they were trying, but they got cut in. I don't
26:41
Speaker 2: think so Georgies did. No, they didn't. They they came
26:46
Speaker 2: out of it quite scot free, which is good because
26:47
Speaker 2: it was their staff they told us to do it.
26:51
Speaker 2: That would have been awkward. But yeah, but obviously Brighton
26:56
Speaker 2: Man was on there on quite a few counts of negligence.
27:01
Speaker 2: So we then went to the NHS with this and
27:04
Speaker 2: the legal team were like, you know, it should be
27:06
Speaker 2: pretty good because we've got an expert that agrees with you,
27:10
Speaker 2: and all they would be doing is trying to get
27:11
Speaker 2: an expert to argue with somebody at the same level
27:15
Speaker 2: that It's like, if our guy on our team is
27:18
Speaker 2: saying this is grace and netligence here at eight eight
27:21
Speaker 2: things or nine things that you've done wrong. It's going
27:24
Speaker 2: to be really hard for a professional who's not biased
27:29
Speaker 2: to argue with his peer, basically, So further down the
27:35
Speaker 2: line this went on, and then the NHS pleaded guilty
27:40
Speaker 2: to six out of eight counts of negligence actually do
27:45
Speaker 2: all of the stuff at Brighton, which is what the
27:48
Speaker 2: Obensman and Brighton had said they hadn't done. NHS were like, yeah,
27:52
Speaker 2: we absolutely fuckt that one up, which I remember finding out.
27:58
Speaker 2: I saw on my way to a camp and I
28:02
Speaker 2: sat in the car and they were calling me, like
28:06
Speaker 2: the lawyers, and I was like, oh, like, you don't.
28:08
Speaker 2: Everything happens like behind the scenes, so you don't. You
28:11
Speaker 2: kind of only know top line information. You don't know
28:14
Speaker 2: day to day what's happening. And they literally called me
28:16
Speaker 2: and I'm like, are you sitting down? I was like yes,
28:19
Speaker 2: I'm in my car and they were like you won.
28:23
Speaker 2: They've pleted guilty, and they listed everything they'd pleaded guilty
28:27
Speaker 2: to and I burst into tears and I'm quite emotionally void,
28:32
Speaker 2: like my dad says, I'm stoic. I'm very British, you know,
28:37
Speaker 2: don't show any emotion. And I all my eyes out
28:42
Speaker 2: for I missed my entire boot camp. I literally sat
28:45
Speaker 2: in my car watching them work out, sobbing uncontrollably, calling
28:50
Speaker 2: my husband, calling his parents, calling my parents. Just it
28:54
Speaker 2: was like this insane weight that I'd been carrying for years,
29:00
Speaker 2: not realizing that's what it was, left me and honestly,
29:05
Speaker 2: like the boot camp man came over to the car
29:06
Speaker 2: and was like, you're okay, and I was like I
29:09
Speaker 2: couldn't even like I could not. He was literally like
29:12
Speaker 2: a hole. I got like, what is happening?
29:15
Speaker 1: Did you think it was him? Do you think it's
29:17
Speaker 1: only a boot calf? You know he's a worry.
29:20
Speaker 2: To you today? Ham He was just like what, Like
29:25
Speaker 2: what is going on? And it was just it was
29:29
Speaker 2: absolute madness the whole thing, and then Blessed Jasper. We
29:34
Speaker 2: then had to go to court. But so basically they
29:38
Speaker 2: they wanted to pay us off so we wouldn't go
29:41
Speaker 2: to court, which is fine, and but we had to
29:44
Speaker 2: go to It was I don't know what the technical
29:48
Speaker 2: turn is. I think it was a crown court we
29:50
Speaker 2: went to, but it wasn't. There wasn't a jury or anything.
29:53
Speaker 2: There was there was the guy in the wig, and
29:56
Speaker 2: there was my barrister who literally speaks in tongues. He
30:00
Speaker 2: I was so delightful. He was brilliant a Jasper. My
30:03
Speaker 2: husband was away so and my parents are away, so
30:05
Speaker 2: my mother in law came as well. So it was
30:07
Speaker 2: the two of us and Jasper sat in this really
30:10
Speaker 2: tiny courtroom with our barrister like a little junior person.
30:16
Speaker 2: And then I guess the NHS is guy, and honestly,
30:22
Speaker 2: the pair of all three of them, like the head
30:24
Speaker 2: the main guys were speaking in tongues. I was sat
30:29
Speaker 2: there like trying to kind of keep up with what
30:32
Speaker 2: was happening. Jasper was obviously bored shitless. I just gave
30:35
Speaker 2: him my phone and he was playing on it. I
30:37
Speaker 2: was like, just don't make a sound, but you're not
30:39
Speaker 2: allowed to, like talk, You're not allowed to. So it
30:43
Speaker 2: was they were like talking about me, and I wasn't
30:46
Speaker 2: allowed to say anything. So then I hike put my
30:49
Speaker 2: hand up because they were basically arguing over some point
30:53
Speaker 2: and I put my hand up and they sort of
30:55
Speaker 2: looked at me, and I was like, am I like
30:57
Speaker 2: can I speak? Because it seems like or second guessing
31:00
Speaker 2: what I'm thinking and I'm right here, like I get
31:04
Speaker 2: this answered. So then like they had to ask me, no,
31:10
Speaker 2: I had to ask them to ask the judges permission
31:12
Speaker 2: for the judge to tell them that I'm allowed to speak.
31:14
Speaker 2: And we're all four foot away from each other. It's
31:18
Speaker 2: like the weirdest I don't know the whole thing. I
31:22
Speaker 2: it's just unlike anything I've ever done. And they were like, Okay,
31:25
Speaker 2: yes you may speak. So I was like, I don't
31:28
Speaker 2: know if I following this, but I think this is
31:32
Speaker 2: what you're kind of arguing over, and this is my
31:36
Speaker 2: opinion on it, because they were basically I think they
31:38
Speaker 2: were working out. At this point, they had already pleaded guilty,
31:42
Speaker 2: so it was working out, like I guess, the money
31:45
Speaker 2: side of things, and it was like, what what bits
31:49
Speaker 2: that have gone wrong equate to how much in general
31:53
Speaker 2: and whether we because like Jasper gets money from it,
32:00
Speaker 2: and we get money as careers and as the people
32:04
Speaker 2: having to go through it, and then obviously the lawyers
32:06
Speaker 2: take everything else just like what they're made of us.
32:12
Speaker 2: And I think they were arguing on what kind of
32:17
Speaker 2: trust I wanted jas was wanting to go into or something.
32:19
Speaker 2: So I was literally like, if I following, like, this
32:22
Speaker 2: is where we're at, this is what I want, just
32:25
Speaker 2: for clarity, like I'm saying what i want. If that's possible,
32:30
Speaker 2: then that that's what I want. I wanted to get
32:31
Speaker 2: it when he's eighteen, ideally when he's twenty one, but
32:33
Speaker 2: it has to be eighteen. And they were like, oh yeah,
32:39
Speaker 2: like kind of half laughed, like being like huh and
32:42
Speaker 2: then go back to this like super formal if the
32:46
Speaker 2: whole thing was weird. But then our barrister Offers was like,
32:50
Speaker 2: that's hilarious, like I've never known anyone to kind of
32:55
Speaker 2: get involved. And I was like, but it's so weird.
32:57
Speaker 2: You're literally talking about me guessing my thoughts and I'm
33:01
Speaker 2: sat two seats away from you, And so he was
33:05
Speaker 2: lovely blessed him. I never saw him again. I don't
33:07
Speaker 2: know who he was. He just came out of nowhere
33:09
Speaker 2: from our lawyers and then disappeared off again. But yeah,
33:14
Speaker 2: then it was then it just went through and the
33:17
Speaker 2: lawyers were like, yeah, give us your bank details, here's
33:20
Speaker 2: a trust set up for Jasper. So they paid. I
33:23
Speaker 2: can I mean, I can tell you how much. It
33:25
Speaker 2: was not very exciting, but I think he got I
33:29
Speaker 2: think like sixteen grand baby around that I can't remember
33:34
Speaker 2: that's in a savings trust thing for him. It gets
33:42
Speaker 2: money on it every month or whatever, like a like
33:45
Speaker 2: a savings.
33:46
Speaker 1: Account like an ISA or something.
33:48
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, So he's got one of those which
33:50
Speaker 2: is run by the court. So it's in the courts
33:52
Speaker 2: funds that when he's eighteen he can have access to.
33:57
Speaker 2: But at that point I think we can then with
34:00
Speaker 2: his permission at that stage, asked him to keep hold
34:03
Speaker 2: of it a bit longer or take it out, put
34:05
Speaker 2: it because I don't want him to have money money
34:06
Speaker 2: he's eighteen. Then we got paid, So we got paid.
34:14
Speaker 2: I think we got eleven thousand for me and John
34:20
Speaker 2: and that just got paid into our account. And then
34:24
Speaker 2: I think our legal team got something like fifty six
34:28
Speaker 2: thousand or thereabouts. They got obviously considerably more than us,
34:33
Speaker 2: and it was because it was a no win, no
34:35
Speaker 2: fee they had had to pay barrister and the guy
34:40
Speaker 2: from Southampton. They and I mean they would charge us
34:43
Speaker 2: like forty quid to send an email safe. But I
34:47
Speaker 2: was like like I don't care, Like I don't care.
34:50
Speaker 2: I want Jasper to have something out of this. I
34:53
Speaker 2: don't care if we get anything out of this. I
34:55
Speaker 2: don't really give a shit how much the lawyers take, Like,
34:58
Speaker 2: what I want is the apology. And then we did
35:00
Speaker 2: then get a full blown apology on behalf of the
35:04
Speaker 2: NHS plus from Brighton saying that they're really sorry that
35:10
Speaker 2: these things have happened, they will learn from these mistakes,
35:13
Speaker 2: they will second guess when things happen like this again.
35:16
Speaker 2: They're so sorry for their part in it. And I
35:18
Speaker 2: was literally like, you could have saved number one, all
35:23
Speaker 2: of our time, all of this money, all of this
35:26
Speaker 2: effort if you had just said sorry two years ago.
35:32
Speaker 2: But that's kind of then, yeah, how it ended, and
35:35
Speaker 2: that that's it. It means. So things like we had
35:39
Speaker 2: got Jasper's Disability Living allowance. We had had that when
35:45
Speaker 2: he had a stone, I think, and that's another weird
35:51
Speaker 2: government thing where we had applied for it on recommendation
35:54
Speaker 2: of the hospital. The DLA said, no, he doesn't have
35:59
Speaker 2: any additional care to a normal child. I was like,
36:04
Speaker 2: are you mental? I had then argued as apparently it
36:08
Speaker 2: is my thing, and I'd sent those of pictures of
36:11
Speaker 2: his prolapses and stuff, and I had enclosed it being like,
36:14
Speaker 2: you know, this is quite graphic, but if you want
36:18
Speaker 2: me to show you that he's not a normal child.
36:20
Speaker 2: Open this and then we got the highest amount of
36:23
Speaker 2: disability living allowance and I was like, oh, that's so
36:25
Speaker 2: weird that you went from no, there's nothing wrong with
36:27
Speaker 2: him sore he shit, it's so sorry, which again I
36:30
Speaker 2: think he's just people money saving. And one of the
36:35
Speaker 2: court things was that we then had hay all of
36:37
Speaker 2: that back and I was like, no, we don't, and
36:42
Speaker 2: even the lawyers were like, oh, yeah, you do, because
36:45
Speaker 2: it's linked to the case. And I was like, no,
36:49
Speaker 2: that money was because he has Hirshbrungs and a stoma.
36:52
Speaker 2: We have realized numerous times that that is to do
36:55
Speaker 2: with hirshbrungs. That is not to do with late diagnosis.
36:58
Speaker 2: So I was like, that's like saying someone is wheelchair
37:02
Speaker 2: bound and then or somebody's you know, breaking their wrist.
37:06
Speaker 2: You wouldn't get DLA for that, but you know what
37:08
Speaker 2: I mean, someone's breaking their list but then they get
37:10
Speaker 2: hit by a bus and are in a wheelchair, but
37:14
Speaker 2: you can't help them because they break their wrist. Like
37:16
Speaker 2: that makes like it doesn't make you sat. So then
37:19
Speaker 2: the lawyers went back to the NHS and were like no,
37:22
Speaker 2: you like one of the things that they tried to
37:24
Speaker 2: see them for, which I argued so many times not
37:27
Speaker 2: do was the fact that he had a stoma and
37:29
Speaker 2: the NHS had pushed back. And that's one thing they
37:31
Speaker 2: weren't guilty of obviously, is that he in a stoma.
37:34
Speaker 2: So I was like, so, hold on, why are we
37:36
Speaker 2: paying you money for the fact that the government paid
37:39
Speaker 2: because he had a stoma, Like like, you're const said, so,
37:43
Speaker 2: either you're guilty and you have to give us more money,
37:46
Speaker 2: or you're not guilty and we don't pay that back.
37:48
Speaker 1: So we lively guessed they very quickly went to we're
37:52
Speaker 1: not guilty.
37:54
Speaker 2: That weirdly, Yeah, So so there was a bit of
37:58
Speaker 2: an argument about that, and yeah, other than that, that
38:01
Speaker 2: was kind of it done and dusted, and we haven't
38:04
Speaker 2: heard anything had to do anything since it's just that's
38:08
Speaker 2: how it is. It doesn't mean that anything that happens
38:11
Speaker 2: from that point onwards to him that's linked to a
38:14
Speaker 2: late diagnosis, which it's hard to know if it is
38:17
Speaker 2: or not with hershbrums, but we can't sue them a
38:19
Speaker 2: second time. And I was like, well, like they've said, sorry,
38:22
Speaker 2: I don't care. What I wanted has happened. But yeah,
38:29
Speaker 2: that's that was that the rollercoaster of suing the NHS.
38:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, and all of this in terms of time, how
38:40
Speaker 1: long did sort of from start to finish, How long
38:43
Speaker 1: did that all take?
38:45
Speaker 3: So the legal stuff I would say was from him
38:50
Speaker 3: being two and a half was when or maybe even
38:54
Speaker 3: three when I first started it, and it finished when.
38:59
Speaker 2: He was five five and a bit, so a good
39:05
Speaker 2: two and a bit year is.
39:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a lot all of this would have been
39:10
Speaker 1: avoided had there just been some accountability and some honesty.
39:17
Speaker 1: I think that's that's the other that's the other word.
39:19
Speaker 1: I think that needs to be mentioned. We can have accountability,
39:22
Speaker 1: we can have people saying sorry and people apologizing and whatever,
39:25
Speaker 1: but just some honesty, just some yeah, we got it
39:28
Speaker 1: wrong and we are very very sorry, and we you know,
39:33
Speaker 1: we we we will never let this happen again, we
39:36
Speaker 1: will learn from it, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, and
39:40
Speaker 1: it would have been avoided.
39:42
Speaker 2: So when I said that to my dad, because he
39:44
Speaker 2: worked not for the NHS, but he worked for the
39:46
Speaker 2: government in a different capacity, and he was like, they
39:49
Speaker 2: will never say sorry, because that's showing you that they
39:53
Speaker 2: were guilty of something. And then you will sue them
39:56
Speaker 2: because they did something wrong. And I was like, it's
39:59
Speaker 2: such a backwards way of doing it, because maybe that
40:01
Speaker 2: is the case with some people, but for some people
40:04
Speaker 2: like me, all I want is that so it's like it.
40:10
Speaker 1: So they probably again it may be the case, or
40:13
Speaker 1: may not have been the case, may have known they
40:16
Speaker 1: were wrong. I mean, like you said, it is so
40:19
Speaker 1: the way you've described it, it's so blasphemo. And I
40:23
Speaker 1: guess sometimes as well, when when you are seeing something
40:28
Speaker 1: that is so blatantly obvious, you can then start to
40:32
Speaker 1: question and go, am I the one that's wrong? You know?
40:35
Speaker 2: Am I going mad? Or you get mad? Yeah, And
40:38
Speaker 2: especially because our legal team weren't the best it was,
40:44
Speaker 2: I second guessed myself quite a lot, and like it
40:47
Speaker 2: was very stressful, Like it was quite all consuming firstly,
40:56
Speaker 2: and plus you have a newborn baby, you still have
40:59
Speaker 2: a kid that needs it's COVID times, then you're dealing
41:03
Speaker 2: with this and I kind of felt, which I'm sure
41:05
Speaker 2: a lot of Hershmores people feel, is that you're constantly
41:07
Speaker 2: trying to really dumb it down so that people understand
41:11
Speaker 2: what's going on. And I felt like that with anyone
41:16
Speaker 2: that I spoke to really plus with our legal team,
41:19
Speaker 2: and it was like, just fucking Google before you've talked
41:23
Speaker 2: to me, Like just just think about what we've already,
41:26
Speaker 2: and like they had had staff changes in that time,
41:28
Speaker 2: and my case kept given to someone else who would
41:31
Speaker 2: then make the same mistakes as the last two people.
41:33
Speaker 2: So it was just like, can you is there like
41:36
Speaker 2: a handover process here? Guys? Like come on, like you're
41:41
Speaker 2: both paid an awful lot of money and you're not
41:42
Speaker 2: doing very much. Yes, yeah, it was. It was a
41:49
Speaker 2: big undertaking, definitely, and I think it's it is in
41:55
Speaker 2: what we know. NHS is flawed in many ways, and
41:57
Speaker 2: I think the system is flawed, but also I think
42:00
Speaker 2: it is. The thing that really got me was that
42:03
Speaker 2: the obodsman, who was meant to be unbiased in all
42:06
Speaker 2: of this obdsmen had pushed back and I was like,
42:11
Speaker 2: you would have seen what I saw, and you've pushed back,
42:15
Speaker 2: and it just at the end of the day, everyone
42:17
Speaker 2: needs to make money, don't they. And I just think
42:20
Speaker 2: the same with the DLA people, the same with the NHS.
42:25
Speaker 2: Push back, push back and hope they go away. And
42:28
Speaker 2: I think a lot of the time people would take
42:31
Speaker 2: what the obitsman or what the team and Brighton had
42:33
Speaker 2: said and been like oh okay, maybe I'm wrong and
42:36
Speaker 2: kind of not taking it further, and with the DLA
42:39
Speaker 2: being told no, your kid's absolutely fine, not pushing back
42:42
Speaker 2: and therefore they've saved themselves from cash. It's like all
42:45
Speaker 2: of these things, I think, sadly as much as in
42:52
Speaker 2: life people think about it money wise rather than human
42:56
Speaker 2: to human. And actually it could have been nipped in
43:00
Speaker 2: the Bard years prior, with no financial numorification, neither parties,
43:04
Speaker 2: no one going to court, none of this happening, had
43:08
Speaker 2: there have just been some kind of human being, like
43:11
Speaker 2: I get it, like I'm sorry, even like I was
43:15
Speaker 2: willing to go in and be like, you know, this
43:17
Speaker 2: is our case, or like this is what happened to us,
43:21
Speaker 2: like and like working with them, Like I don't mind
43:24
Speaker 2: sitting in a room with that man that I hate
43:25
Speaker 2: that I feel ruined my child's life, okay, fituatic, but
43:29
Speaker 2: like I don't mind being put in a room with him.
43:31
Speaker 2: And I'd even said to my dad, I was like, like,
43:34
Speaker 2: if if I go to a room with him, will
43:36
Speaker 2: you come with me? And be like because my dad's
43:38
Speaker 2: super calm and very like articulate, and I was like,
43:42
Speaker 2: would you come with me? And and like I'm more
43:45
Speaker 2: than happy to kind of kind of workshop with them. Okay,
43:49
Speaker 2: if this happens again, you know, what can you guys
43:53
Speaker 2: do from your side because this is kind of where
43:54
Speaker 2: we were at, and you know, like work with them
43:58
Speaker 2: in some capacity to make sure it doesn't happen again,
44:00
Speaker 2: and are like obviously Brighton said no and our legal
44:04
Speaker 2: team are like, no, they won't do that. And I
44:06
Speaker 2: was like, like, can we ask? Like I genuinely like,
44:11
Speaker 2: I think that is more valuable? Valuable? Valuable? Is that
44:15
Speaker 2: the word?
44:15
Speaker 1: Yeah?
44:15
Speaker 2: That's so for everyone involved than you're just giving us
44:19
Speaker 2: some money and saying sorry, yeah, Like like like, can
44:23
Speaker 2: we do something that you know is a bit more
44:26
Speaker 2: you know, proactive? But no, how are unfortunately as to
44:30
Speaker 2: make you a bit I think they're busy and they're like, yeah, whatever,
44:32
Speaker 2: little lady.
44:33
Speaker 1: Yeah they they yeah, not. That's not how legal works.
44:36
Speaker 1: It's works at all. And just as we sort of
44:41
Speaker 1: round towards the end, how do you feel about the
44:45
Speaker 1: whole process now sort of looking back on it with
44:49
Speaker 1: it being sort of a few years ago, now, how
44:52
Speaker 1: how do you view the process? You view it differently
44:55
Speaker 1: when you were going through it than you do now,
44:58
Speaker 1: or is it how is that changed?
45:01
Speaker 2: Good question too, I feel it differently, probably not. I
45:08
Speaker 2: would hope I never have to do it again.
45:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can that.
45:14
Speaker 2: I'm very aware I suppose of documenting things like I
45:24
Speaker 2: chat shit on Instagram all the time, or being I'm
45:28
Speaker 2: very communicative person, whereas like my husband isn't He's more
45:33
Speaker 2: of a closed book guy. I'm very open, very like
45:39
Speaker 2: I'll tell anyone anything that they want to know, like
45:41
Speaker 2: I don't really care. And actually that was a really
45:46
Speaker 2: beneficial thing. So I think for me, like just in life,
45:49
Speaker 2: it's always like just I think communication for anyone is
45:52
Speaker 2: really important. And I also think standing up for yourself
45:58
Speaker 2: and certainly for your kids when they don't have the
46:00
Speaker 2: voice to do it, there is nothing more important to me.
46:04
Speaker 2: And having done that, like when either of my kids
46:09
Speaker 2: are ill, obviously I have a very high threshold for
46:11
Speaker 2: what requires a hospital visit versus what can I do
46:13
Speaker 2: at home, But it's like I know, at what point
46:18
Speaker 2: do I need to kick up a fuss? And what
46:21
Speaker 2: has been really good is that Weirdly, in our village
46:23
Speaker 2: there is another baby that has Hirshbrungs. I mentioned like
46:27
Speaker 2: we their doula is my friend's sister, so we kind
46:31
Speaker 2: of like I know the family. I know Albie, I've
46:34
Speaker 2: met them, I've cattered to the mum loads. In fact,
46:37
Speaker 2: we were talking about your podcast, yes, and she is like,
46:44
Speaker 2: it's just so nice having someone to talk to. And
46:48
Speaker 2: I was like, communication again is so important, and this
46:53
Speaker 2: is where we're at. And there's another lady that reached
46:55
Speaker 2: out to me on Instagram and was like, this is
46:56
Speaker 2: where we're at. It's not Hirshbrungs. We don't quite know
46:59
Speaker 2: what it is, but she was like this is happening,
47:03
Speaker 2: like is this normal? Is this bad? And it's like
47:06
Speaker 2: document everything, write everything down, text anyone anything, because you've
47:12
Speaker 2: got time and date stamps all of these messages to me,
47:15
Speaker 2: keep them like this is all really important for you
47:19
Speaker 2: and you just need to always advocate for your child
47:21
Speaker 2: and if something I think I've learned that where I'm
47:26
Speaker 2: super chilled and kind of don't want to impose, don't
47:30
Speaker 2: want to cause a fuss, don't want to you know,
47:32
Speaker 2: there's always somebody more important or like somebody that needs
47:35
Speaker 2: more help, or somebody that's a higher priority. Than than
47:38
Speaker 2: you or your child, and it's like that is all
47:41
Speaker 2: well and good, but your child does not need to
47:43
Speaker 2: be kneel by mouth lying on a bed for two weeks,
47:47
Speaker 2: like you can kick up a fuss before then. And
47:49
Speaker 2: I think now we've changed as parents. Actually we're still
47:54
Speaker 2: super chilled, Like our kids are veryl everything's fine, but
47:59
Speaker 2: like but at school, for example, there was one occasion
48:01
Speaker 2: where a teacher told him he couldn't go to the
48:03
Speaker 2: toilet because there was no pass available, and like, he
48:07
Speaker 2: can go to the toilet at any point, it is
48:09
Speaker 2: in his EHDP, like it's a rule. But it was
48:13
Speaker 2: a new member of staff who didn't know, and he
48:14
Speaker 2: had an accident. And there's not me being all like,
48:18
Speaker 2: oh it's okay, do worried. I was literally like, this
48:21
Speaker 2: is what we need to do. Do you need to
48:23
Speaker 2: George Is to teach you this? Like what can I
48:26
Speaker 2: do to ensure this does not happen ever again? And
48:29
Speaker 2: they were literally like, oh, sorry, but it won't happen again.
48:33
Speaker 2: And it's like, I think that's how things have changed.
48:36
Speaker 2: It's just that I'm a bit more to the point direct,
48:42
Speaker 2: still lovely and friendly and you know, nice, nice around
48:45
Speaker 2: the edges. But don't fuck with my kids, I think
48:47
Speaker 2: is the moral of the story, because I will do
48:49
Speaker 2: everything in my power to take you down absolutely.
48:53
Speaker 1: I think we need. I think we will end on
48:56
Speaker 1: that point. What a fantastic well was dying to no
48:59
Speaker 1: fuck with my kids? Fantastic We'll lend all that.
49:03
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for this, no worries, Thank you
49:07
Speaker 2: always a pleasure, Tom.
49:12
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the podcast. Find us on
49:15
Speaker 1: Instagram Tom's Underscore Hirshprung's Underscore podcast. Listen to previous episodes
49:21
Speaker 1: on Spotify by searching Tom's Hirshbrung's podcast.