Latest / Evolutionary Men / No More Mr. Lone Wolf (with Dr. Robert Glover)

Transcript

No More Mr. Lone Wolf (with Dr. Robert Glover) · Evolutionary Men

0:00
All right, and welcome back.
0:26
So I am tremendously excited today to be joined by my mentor, friend, and teacher, Dr. Robert Glover,
0:35
who is personally very exciting for me as I've known him for a few years now
0:39
and been the recipient of a lot of his wisdom and have spread it as far and wide as I can.
0:45
Most of you guys listening have certainly heard of his book, No More Mr. Nice Guy,
0:49
which is, I would say, the matrix book for so many men.
0:56
I work with that they read it and it kind of blows their mind and on ramps them to a path and journey of transformation.
1:04
And Robert has worked with, I mean, at this point, probably tens of thousands of men in various capacities
1:12
through your media, through your one-on-one work, through your group work,
1:15
and is one of the, I would say, mentors in the field of men's work that, you know, is cresting, I would say,
1:24
in a pretty big tidal wave.
1:25
But you've been in the trenches, man, for a few decades longer than most of us.
1:29
So I'm very excited to have you here today.
1:32
Welcome.
1:33
Jason, good to be here with you.
1:36
You know, I consider you a friend.
1:39
So when you say I'm a mentor and teacher to you as well, I go, okay, I'll accept that.
1:45
But we're buddies.
1:46
We're friends.
1:48
And, you know, I never heard anybody quite explain no more Mr. Nice Guy like you did when you said it's kind of like this matrix opening.
1:56
Because, yeah, it really is.
1:59
You know, I've received, for 20 plus years, I've received countless emails from people that said,
2:05
Robert, your book opened my eyes.
2:07
How did you know me so well?
2:09
I've read every self-help book out there.
2:11
And this is the one that most spoke to me.
2:14
So that's kind of a cool way to put it.
2:17
Thank you for that.
2:18
Yeah, my pleasure.
2:20
And it's real.
2:21
You know, the work I do with men, you know, I've talked to thousands of men around the country.
2:27
And this, you and this work is the one consistent thing that hits so many men and at least the guys I work with.
2:35
So it's really a huge gift you've given to the world.
2:39
And, you know, one thing I'll note is, yeah, I totally consider you a friend as well.
2:43
And one of the many things I think we'll talk about here today as part of the context, you and I know each other, is through men's work and men's groups.
2:51
And one of the really cool, unique things that groups can do is this real kind of cutting edge, I would say, flex flow peer leadership,
3:04
where you're both mates and you really get to receive the best gifts of each other.
3:11
And there's moments in time where, you know, I might be able to bring forward some authority and lots of moments in time where you get to bring forward authority.
3:18
And it's very counter to, I think, how a lot of us men have been raised culturally.
3:23
You know, certain men are at the top and then we got to, like, fight up there.
3:27
But something cool about men's groups is both a leveling and an acknowledgement of depth and wisdom that I get to live, you know, twice a month with you, which is really, really incredible.
3:37
Yeah.
3:37
And, you know, I love that our topic is, of course, men's works, men's groups, you know, men connecting.
3:45
It is my passion.
3:46
I've been, even before I knew it, I was building communities of men.
3:51
When I was in private practice as a therapist in Seattle, you know, wrapped that up about 15 years ago when I moved to Mexico.
3:58
But I was leading five men's groups a week, which was, and it never felt like work.
4:04
It felt like it fed me as much as feeding them.
4:07
I just had a workshop here in my house right behind me in this room this weekend.
4:11
Seven guys.
4:14
Interestingly, all of these guys had come to a workshop with me here a year ago.
4:18
Two of the people knew each other because they're twin brothers, but the rest of the people were strangers.
4:23
They stayed in touch over the last year and all wanted to come back again together because it was so powerful.
4:30
This year they rented an Airbnb and they all stayed in it and came to my place for our sessions.
4:35
And, you know, just the power of the work.
4:41
And what I love about, you know, when I do like these weekend workshops, Friday night, the guys, as I said, usually don't know each other.
4:50
Often I don't know them either.
4:52
And, you know, they come in my office.
4:54
We spend three hours just getting to know each other, talking about why we're here, why we came.
4:59
And, you know, when we guys, I mean, it takes a lot of courage for a man to go travel often to my place in Mexico.
5:07
So to travel to Mexico, not know what you're getting into, you know, be with a group, a small group.
5:12
I mean, if it was a big auditorium of people, I mean, that's so anonymous, you wouldn't care.
5:17
But a small group, eight guys at the most.
5:20
You don't know these guys.
5:21
And, you know, we get there and everybody's kind of measuring each other, checking each other out, kind of building the hierarchies in our mind, who we like, who we don't like, who we think's an ass, who we wish hadn't come, who reminds us of somebody else we used to know.
5:39
You know, who's the alpha, you know, and we all do that.
5:42
And I always tell the people that first night, everybody's doing that, by the way.
5:46
It's not just you.
5:47
Every other guy's doing that as well.
5:49
And placing ourself in that hierarchy as how we see ourself with man and in the world.
5:55
And I tell them, by the time they leave here Sunday evening, they went from a group of strangers that were suspicious or not knowing of each other to a group of guys that feel like they've been frat brothers for 20 years.
6:10
You know, they've known each other so well, been through so much because of the work they do here in the room, especially getting vulnerable, sharing and revealing.
6:18
But the conversations they have during breaks, how they talk and connect while they go out to dinner together, it just, I call it the secret sauce.
6:27
It's just so powerful when men in a safe container, in a safe group, will just open up and risk.
6:35
And, you know, the B'nai Brown, get vulnerable, you know, tell things that we don't want anybody to know about us, but we tell it anyway.
6:44
And we hear other guys do the same and we realize, well, they didn't judge me for that, you know, and I'm not really judging him for his thing.
6:50
He didn't want us to know.
6:52
And there's something about that within, again, by midday Saturday, they're usually going, Robert, this already exceeded my expectations.
7:01
Not because I'm such a genius, but just because they are in a space that most men never get to experience of just that openness and vulnerability and support and love and accountability from other men.
7:16
And that's really my mission on this planet is to just keep both creating those spaces and supporting other men who are creating those spaces because I can't do it alone.
7:28
So if and I'm so excited because really there is this worldwide men's movement of really good men like you and so many other men I know and don't know that are creating these spaces for men to do their deepest work.
7:43
And I'm excited.
7:45
I'm just I'm I'm thrilled to see where things are going because it wasn't like this 30 years ago when I started my work.
7:52
Very different.
7:53
Yeah, totally.
7:55
And I would actually love for you to speak to that part of your journey a little bit in terms of, you know, where did no more Mr. Nice Guy come from?
8:03
Like, what was the genesis, the birth of, you know, what is now a pretty seminal work in the men's work world?
8:09
How did you discover, so to speak, nice guy syndrome and decide to write about it?
8:17
It found me like most things in life and usually most of the things in life that have found me that are worthwhile sometimes come out of a difficult or challenging situation.
8:27
So basically, I was about two, three years into my second marriage.
8:31
I was in my early 30s.
8:33
And my then wife said, everybody thinks you're such a nice guy, but you're not.
8:39
You know, you can be a real asshole.
8:41
You're passive aggressive.
8:42
You lie to me.
8:43
I can't trust you.
8:44
I think everything's fine.
8:45
And then you blow up at me.
8:47
She said, I'd rather be with a jerk because at least a jerk is going to always be a jerk.
8:51
And she goes, you need help.
8:53
I'm going to leave you if you don't get help.
8:55
And I'm thinking, I'm a nice guy.
8:57
What's the problem here?
8:58
I try to do everything for you.
9:00
I try to make you happy.
9:01
I give you everything you want.
9:03
You know, I'm always keeping the peace.
9:05
You know, if it wasn't for me, you know, this would be a shit show.
9:08
Yeah.
9:09
Okay.
9:10
I didn't want to lose her.
9:12
So, um, and she was telling me, you're a sex addict.
9:14
You need to, you know, so I went to a 12 step group for sex addicts and quickly found out
9:19
I wasn't having enough sex to be a sex addict.
9:21
Uh, and I wasn't, I was, uh, a relationship addict and approval addict and codependent, you
9:27
know?
9:27
Um, but that, that, that 12 step group was the perfect place for me, even though I really didn't
9:34
belong probably.
9:35
But it was all guys, right?
9:37
All men.
9:38
And they were probably thinking, why is this guy here?
9:40
You know, such a, such a simp.
9:43
His wife made him come, you know, and the, but it was for the first time in my life, I
9:49
began revealing things about me that I'd never told anybody.
9:52
Things I'd done, feelings.
9:55
I had thoughts.
9:56
I had impulses.
9:57
Maybe I'd acted on them.
9:58
Maybe I hadn't, but just the impulse scared me.
10:01
And so that I actually got excited to go to that group every week.
10:06
I think it met at 6 AM.
10:07
And, you know, I get excited because it felt really, really good to go tell stuff about me
10:15
that I'd always kept inside all my life.
10:17
And the strongest reaction I ever got was, thank you for sharing, Robert.
10:21
You know, it was never like, what kind of pervert are you?
10:24
Or what, you know, it was just like, thank you for sharing.
10:27
I also got into therapy.
10:29
And then, um, maybe six months or so later, I got into a men's group that was led by a female
10:34
psychologist who'd written some books on sexual shame.
10:37
And I was probably in those groups and working with that therapist for five, six years, maybe.
10:42
And it was during that time that I, I began writing No More Mr. Nice Guy, because what happened
10:48
is I was working on me and my core beliefs about the world, my paradigm that, you know,
10:54
if I'm just different from my father, just different from all the bad men I've heard women complain about,
10:59
if I'm just kind and caring and giving and generous, I'll be liked and loved and get my needs met.
11:05
And I found out, you know, that wasn't really working so well.
11:09
And everybody else wasn't responding to the same, you know, rules that I was thought, I thought I was playing by.
11:14
And I was a marriage and family therapist, had private practice.
11:17
And I started noticing, you know, once you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
11:22
So once I kind of had that awareness about this nice guy syndrome,
11:26
this something that I call covert contracts, giving to get, men thinking they have to please women.
11:32
Women and if they make women happy, then, you know, women will be happy and want to have sex with them.
11:37
And everything will always be flow and be happy and good.
11:40
And yeah, that and these men were coming to me for therapy, often with their wives or girlfriends.
11:46
And they were saying the same things I'd said.
11:49
I'm a nice guy.
11:49
I'm one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet.
11:51
I treat her better than her ex.
11:53
I'm raising her kids.
11:54
I buy her the new car she wants.
11:56
I get the leather interior, but it's never good enough.
11:59
She's never happy.
12:00
There's always something else.
12:01
When's it going to be my turn?
12:03
Oh, and she never wants to have sex anymore.
12:05
And I thought, man, that's all the same stuff I was saying.
12:09
So I was, I think at that time I'd already was leading a men's group.
12:14
And I decided to start another one just focused on nice guys.
12:17
And we started meeting every other Wednesday.
12:21
Quickly, I added a second nice guy group.
12:23
And I just started writing stuff.
12:26
What I was learning about me and kind of theory building about nice guy syndrome.
12:31
As I came to call it, where did it come from?
12:33
Why is it so prevalent?
12:34
Why do so many men think the same thing?
12:36
If I'm just different from my father, if I'm different from other bad men, if I just treat
12:40
women well, I'll be liked and loved and get my needs met and have a smooth problem-free
12:44
world and all the sex that I want.
12:46
Even though I've got lots of sexual issues and kind of tend to avoid all the sex that I want.
12:51
And, you know, just a lot of unconscious patterns really started bubbling up.
12:56
And I just kept writing for about five, six years.
12:59
Finally, you know, finished.
13:02
If I publish everything I'd written, the book would be about that thick as it is.
13:06
It's a little bit more manageable.
13:07
Took about three years to get it published.
13:12
Many, many book editors said, Robert, we love your books.
13:15
Well-written.
13:15
But they all had the same but.
13:17
Our marketing department says men won't buy a self-help book.
13:21
And I kept saying, if you don't publish them, they can't buy them.
13:25
And that was kind of just at the beginning of just internet, Amazon, e-book readers, audio
13:35
books that you, you know, probably still back then you had to get them on CDs before it became
13:41
all streaming.
13:42
Before podcasts where men could listen to somebody talk, interview somebody, and we'll put the
13:47
book in the show notes.
13:49
And then you click on that.
13:50
You go to Amazon.
13:50
Men, or men, people who bought this book bought this book too.
13:55
And, you know, I don't know if men read the books, but they buy them.
13:57
So, you know, my royalty checks have gotten bigger every year for the last 25 years.
14:03
Most books, if they don't sell within about 60 days, they tank.
14:07
So it's quite the phenomenon that 25 years later, it's the book is still growing.
14:12
And that just shows not only how many nice guys are out there, but how it's even expanding
14:20
with each generation to, you know, I kind of was started out working with.
14:24
Baby Boomers and Generation X.
14:27
Now it's Millennials and the Gen Zs that, you know, most of the young men I meet nowadays,
14:33
my generation, I heard from the men about their fathers.
14:37
Oh, dad was not there.
14:39
Parents were divorced or he worked all the time or he was dangerous.
14:42
He was abusive.
14:42
He was addictive.
14:45
Nowadays, the younger guys, the Millennials and the Gen Zs, they say, oh, my dad was a nice guy.
14:49
And all that he taught me was, don't piss off your mom because that's what he was trying not to do.
14:55
Yeah.
14:55
So it is expanding.
14:59
And as I said, I'm really grateful because when I started my recovery, like I said, I had to go to a 12-step group for sex addicts.
15:06
I got with a woman therapist leading a men's group.
15:10
I did a few, you know, Robert Bly, mytho-poetic stuff.
15:14
I went out in the woods a few times, beat a drum, had a talking stick, said, oh, I don't think I ever took all my clothes off.
15:22
But you know what?
15:23
That was, like I said, unless you knew somebody who could tell you about something, there was no real way to find out about it.
15:30
I think Mankind Project already existed.
15:33
I think the Sterling Weekends already existed at that time.
15:36
But unless you knew somebody who had done it and then would just say, hey, let's go do this thing, you really had no way of finding out about it.
15:43
So I am so thrilled that now, here we're talking 2025, that, you know, just thousands of podcasts for men, many of them with millions of followers.
15:55
You know, people like Chris Williamson and Stephen Bartlett and so many people that are speaking to men's issues.
16:01
And that information is out there.
16:03
And so many men's coaches and so many men's programs and retreats and groups and membership programs and books that just did not exist 30 years ago.
16:13
And that just excites me to no end that I get to watch this wave, you know, pulling men in as men are really realizing how badly we need other men in our lives.
16:25
So, yeah, I'm just so I'm always excited to do these kind of conversations.
16:30
Anything that just spreads the word to men that, yeah, don't go it alone.
16:35
It works better if you got good men in your life.
16:39
A hundred percent.
16:40
And part of what initially brought us together was getting built in our own lives.
16:45
We joined the same men's program.
16:46
We joined the same year and we were you're probably one of the first people that I met and got to know.
16:54
And to the testament of what you were explaining happens in your weekends, that very much happened for me in that in that men's program and community.
17:02
Just going so deep with you guys that it's like, oh, I'm in for life now with these guys.
17:07
You know, it's just there's a certain bonding that happens in in doing this kind of work that a lot of men just don't find elsewhere.
17:15
I know I hadn't.
17:17
And now that I've tasted it, I'm like, I kind of want to don't want to do anything else.
17:20
It's like if I'm hanging out with men, it's like in men's work and men's programs and guys like you who we can have fun and we can go deep.
17:26
And it's a bit of an addiction of my own.
17:29
Yeah.
17:30
But here's the cool thing, or at least to me, it's a cool thing.
17:34
When I was on a book tour, 2003 for No More Mr. Nice Guy, my publisher sent me around the country, several big cities and got interviewed a lot, television, radio, print.
17:44
And I got asked a lot, did I see a worldwide men's movement coming?
17:48
So, again, we're talking 2003, so almost 25 years ago.
17:52
And I said, no, I don't really think so.
17:57
I said, I don't think there's one unifying factor to bring men together, kind of like in the women's movement, whether that was equality, fair treatment and work and other parts of life.
18:09
You know, just the laws and culture that, you know, that was repressive to women.
18:16
And so I think there was something that brought women together.
18:20
And I've also always said, I think the women's movement succeeded to the degree that it did because of good men that brought it along.
18:27
You know, it was, you know, male judges, male legislators, male university presidents that began to say, yeah, this isn't fair.
18:37
Male CEOs, we've got to make some changes.
18:40
And so I think the women's movement succeeded to the degree that it did.
18:45
Now, that may give me some flack.
18:46
That may, you know, you can say, wait a minute.
18:48
But I think it was actually good men that said, that's right, this isn't fair.
18:53
We need to address these issues.
18:57
And I didn't know if that same thing would happen if men rallied around a single cause would also the good women of the world say, that's right.
19:06
We need to be supportive of that.
19:09
I think actually it does happen to some degree.
19:11
But just as much what I see is that, you know, if you read or if you go on social media and even some mainstream media, if journalists seem to write an article about men's male empowerment, men's group, they lump it all with, you know, the man of fear.
19:27
Red Pill, Joe Rogan.
19:29
You know, they put everything in one big club.
19:31
I've even seen articles where they lump it all back to the January 6th riots at the Capitol.
19:37
That that's what men's work, the origins of men's work is about.
19:40
Almost like, you know, we're all white nationalist skinheads.
19:44
So there is still that resistance to men doing organized work.
19:49
But but here's here's what I actually see is happening.
19:52
Yeah.
19:53
The Internet, YouTube, social media is really helping, you know, coaches, people with programs, with books connect with the men.
20:03
But here's what I see happening that I didn't see coming back in 2003 is that I think there's a movement happening that doesn't look like a movement.
20:13
And because it's subtle.
20:14
But what happens is, you know, some guy goes out and finds a dojo and starts doing Brazilian jujitsu.
20:21
Another guy's going through a divorce and he finds out his church has a divorce support group for men.
20:28
Another guy has never dated or had sex.
20:32
So he decides to go to a dating pickup boot camp.
20:36
Another guy's got addiction issues and he goes and joins 12 steps and maybe ends up in a stag group.
20:43
And what happens is these guys without knowing it, they don't want to learn to grapple or I need to I need help going through my divorce or I want to learn how to meet women or I want to I got to get over my addiction.
20:55
They're going and finding groups of men to do that in.
20:59
And then they connect with the men through that platform, whether it's, you know, you're doing Brazilian jujitsu, you're rolling around on the floor with a bunch of guys, you know, whether it's your divorce support groups, a bunch of guys, your 12 step group, then maybe it's a bunch of guys.
21:13
You're you know, you're even you're dating boot camp while you're going to pick up women.
21:17
The fun part is you're going with a bunch of guys.
21:20
Right.
21:20
Yeah.
21:21
And then so that men are reaching out to connect with men through some intuitive evolutionary knowing we need men.
21:30
Whatever it is we do, we're going to do it better with other men at our side, not by ourselves.
21:36
This whole lone wolf.
21:37
I'll read a book.
21:37
I'll watch a YouTube video and figure it out myself.
21:40
Men are connecting with men.
21:42
And then what happens?
21:43
You start hanging out with a man, you know, with men and somebody says, hey, have you heard of this book?
21:49
You know, it might be no more Mr. Nice Guy.
21:51
It might be way the superior man.
21:53
You know, it might be, you know, book by Connor Beaton or John Wineland.
21:56
You know, could you know or hey, you know, I've been going to this men's program.
22:00
Let me tell you about it.
22:01
Or, you know, have you have you watched this podcast?
22:03
I mean, how many links to podcast have you sent to people?
22:07
You know, again, it might be Chris Williams said it might be Peter Atiyah.
22:12
It might be Stephen Bartlett.
22:13
It might be, you know, some.
22:15
And so guys do that.
22:16
You know, we're always sharing, you know, various things on social media.
22:19
And so what's happening is I think is this kind of perfect storm that men, whether they know it or not, are seeking tribe.
22:29
They're seeking connectedness with other men.
22:31
There's so many entryways into that male masculine tribe where there's Brazilian jujitsu, divorce support, 12 step, you know, pickup.
22:41
There's entryways.
22:42
Even red pill is an entryway into the men's movement.
22:48
And then people start sharing information.
22:50
We start connecting.
22:51
We and it just keeps growing and expanding.
22:54
And it becomes this tidal wave in men's lives that just didn't exist 30 years ago.
22:59
And so, like I said, I'm as happy as I could be just watching how this happens in so many just subtle, seemingly unrelated ways.
23:09
But yet it keeps creating a bigger and bigger wave of men's connectedness and empowerment in all the best ways.
23:17
Consciousness, open hearted empowerment, loving empowerment.
23:22
Yeah, as you can tell, I get excited talking about it.
23:25
Yeah, it's so great.
23:27
And, you know, to your credit, you've been a co-creator of that as well, which we'll get into a little bit with one of the other ways we're connected through your integration nation.
23:36
But before we get there, I do want to just do a quick, I would love to hear you kind of define in your mind these days, you know, nearly 20 years later.
23:46
What is nice guy syndrome?
23:49
And what does it cost men?
23:51
Like, what have you seen it cost yourself and cost men in the world?
23:55
Yeah, okay.
23:56
The elevator pitch for nice guy syndrome is a guy.
24:00
And by the way, women are affected by this.
24:02
Probably most nice guys learn to be nice guys, maybe when we got trained by nice guy mothers.
24:07
So, you know, women listening to this as well.
24:10
I mean, so many women write me and they'll go, Robert, thank you for your book.
24:14
I learned a lot about myself and I learned a lot about, you know, my ex or my husband.
24:19
I got an email just the other day saying, thank you for this.
24:22
It's opened up my marriage in a good way with my husband.
24:25
He's reading your book.
24:26
Do you have any support for me?
24:27
So, but basically a nice guy, well, since we're using the mail, is a man who usually at a very early age, I mean, we're talking a few weeks, a few months, a few years old, inaccurately internalized an emotional belief.
24:43
Not an intellectual belief, but just an emotional belief, a nervous system belief that I'm not okay just as I am.
24:49
I'm not lovable.
24:51
I'm not good enough.
24:52
Whatever that might be.
24:54
I'm bad even.
24:55
And then they developed a survival mechanism, a life paradigm that says I have to become what I think other people want me to be so I can be liked and loved and get my needs met.
25:07
And I've got to hide anything about me that might get a negative reaction that might get scolded, punished, abandoned, shamed.
25:15
And so nice guys are extremely chameleon like.
25:19
There's no authentic us in there.
25:22
It is in there.
25:22
But we don't even know what's in there because most of our life we've been trying to do this thing to just get approval, people pleasers, external validation.
25:32
Like if I was talking to you and just measuring everything you did, and every time I got a nod, a smile, an affirmation, I'd keep doing that.
25:41
But if you kind of like kind of squinted your eyes, maybe looked a little hostile, I better not do that again or I better explain that.
25:49
I better, you know, steer away from that.
25:51
And nice guys are doing that unconsciously or consciously all the fucking time, 24-7.
25:59
We're measuring.
26:00
We're changing colors as a chameleon.
26:03
We're checking which way the wind's blowing.
26:05
We're adapting.
26:05
We're trying to fix and manage.
26:08
And so if you just think about that, if we're walking the planet constantly reading our environment and constantly having to adjust, adapt, pull back, avoid, how are we going to ever live up to our full potential?
26:25
How are we ever going to be our true self?
26:27
How are we ever going to be authentic with anybody?
26:29
How are we ever going to be honest, transparent with anybody?
26:33
How are we ever going to take risks and be vulnerable and, you know, take the big swing of hitting it out of the park if, oh, no, I might look foolish or fail or, you know, have negative consequences.
26:43
So it costs us our relationships.
26:47
It costs us our integrity.
26:49
It has happened to me a number of times.
26:53
It costs us our passion, our purpose, our happiness, our joy.
27:00
It robs us of all those things because basically we're living life with trying to figure out, okay, I'm not supposed to be that.
27:09
That's been taken off the table.
27:10
I've been told don't be that.
27:11
That's been taken off the table.
27:12
We get these messages from family, from church, from religion, from culture, from women, from media, from social media.
27:19
Oh, I better not be that.
27:20
Oh, I can't be that.
27:21
So what's left?
27:23
What is there left for me to be as a man, as a human?
27:26
And so that's the crisis.
27:29
Most men, when they do find your work, find my work, find some sort of men's work, is that they're basically confronted with, who am I?
27:39
Who am I?
27:40
And because we haven't been being us.
27:43
We didn't know there was an us.
27:45
I get a kick out of so many men when they come to me for, like, dating advice.
27:49
You know, my key piece of advice is be yourself, be authentic, be real.
27:52
And they go, well, apparently being myself isn't working so well because women aren't attracted to me, don't talk to me, don't want to sleep with me.
27:59
And my question always is, how many people do you let see the real you?
28:03
Do you let you see the real you?
28:06
Do you let people know how much time you waste on social media?
28:10
Do you let people know how much you jerk off to porn?
28:13
Do you let people know how much your brain ruminates and you beat the hell out of yourself that you have an internal assassin?
28:20
Do you let people know your hidden addictive behaviors?
28:23
Do you let people know your opinions that might offend somebody?
28:26
No, all this stuff is hidden and pushed away.
28:29
So there's no real you for anybody else to be drawn to or attracted to.
28:35
And one of the things I say in No More Mr. Nice Guy, and this weekend, it got repeated more than once that people are attracted to other people's rough edges.
28:45
I'm attracted to you, Jason, because of your rough edges, because of who you are, not because you're so smart or you're so intuitive, which is all true.
28:56
But the thing that really attracts me to you is your rough edges, your insecurities, your vulnerabilities, your not good enough parts that you believe aren't good enough.
29:08
I find those things interesting and engaging, and I can relate to them.
29:13
So that's why I'm connected with you.
29:16
Not because you're so goddamn perfect.
29:18
It's because you're so goddamn you.
29:21
And that's interesting.
29:23
Yeah, I love that.
29:26
I think that speaks to the unique...
29:29
It's a bit of a paradox, I think, for guys when you realize, well, being my authentic self, we're showing my rough edges.
29:37
When, this is something I work a lot with guys around, when we become okay with them, right?
29:43
So instead of holding them in shame, it's like, hey, here's the fucking thing I'm struggling with.
29:46
I'm not good at this, or I feel vulnerable about this.
29:49
The paradox is that is when we become okay with that and share that, on the outside, people experience that as, oh, that guy's pretty fucking confident.
29:59
He's securing himself.
30:00
He's not trying to bullshit me or put up a front.
30:02
Even if we're not confident, even if our knees are knocking while we're sharing it, it looks confident to be that vulnerable.
30:09
Well, you know, you and I have been in a group with five other guys for seven years.
30:16
And, you know, we made a commitment, a lifetime commitment.
30:19
Well, we'll probably be in that group more than most of us will be, you know, in our primary relationships.
30:25
And, you know, about two weeks ago, I mean, I was just, I was in the, not only in the dumps, I was like just riddled with anxiety.
30:34
I'd been away from home for a month, traveling, all good experiences, came back home, and I just found myself riddled with anxiety, feeling fatigued, no real energy.
30:46
I didn't know if it was leftover jet lags.
30:48
I'd been to Asia.
30:49
I didn't know if it was just some things that were hanging over me that I hadn't done while I was gone, that I was kind of procrastinating on.
30:57
I didn't know if maybe I had an infection from a tooth problem I was having.
31:02
Come find out, I did.
31:03
I'm on antibiotics.
31:04
I just, I didn't know if it's because I'm in a place where I'm working with some teams to help me expand my visibility and platform.
31:16
Am I bumping into some glass ceilings that are, I didn't know.
31:19
All I knew was that I just wanted to go curl up in my bed and not do anything.
31:24
And the stuff that was hanging over me, making me anxious, wasn't getting done, which made me feel more anxious.
31:31
And I was in this vicious cycle.
31:32
And I'm lying there, and I had this brilliant insight.
31:37
I should tell the guys in my men's group.
31:40
You know, here I am teaching and preaching the power of being in men's group and the support we get and the accountability we get and the love we get.
31:50
And just being known by revealing ourselves.
31:53
And I thought, you know, how come I didn't think of that a little bit earlier?
31:57
But, you know, I thought about it, you know, soon enough in the process.
32:01
And so about two weeks ago, Monday morning, I got up and shot three or four short videos to post to you guys in the group.
32:11
Just talking, just saying what I just said.
32:13
I'm feeling lethargic.
32:15
I'm riddled with anxiety.
32:17
I'm having fear.
32:19
I'm not getting anything done.
32:20
I don't know what's wrong.
32:22
I don't know the cause.
32:24
I said, but I just need to tell you guys.
32:26
And I told you guys everything.
32:27
I just basically said here.
32:29
And I said, I'm going to make a list of the things I need to get done in their highest priority.
32:33
I'm going to have some grace with myself.
32:35
I'm going to let you know at the end of the day what I got checked off my list.
32:42
I'm going to let you know how I'm doing.
32:44
And you guys all, you know, responded, voice messages, videos, written message, supporting me, making some suggestions, helping me with some accountability.
32:55
And within two days, two, two and a half days, I was feeling more energized, less anxious.
33:02
And I, but I kept the check-ins, just kept them coming because they were so effective.
33:08
So even me working with this stuff for 30 years, knowing the power of having men, when I was down in my dumps, it still took me a little while to go, oh, I should tell my bros.
33:20
I should let them know what's going on.
33:23
And the very act of making those videos and posting them for you, I felt better immediately.
33:30
I began to feel a sense of relief that I'd be okay.
33:33
Things would get figured out.
33:35
I knew how much you guys loved me.
33:37
You'd be there for me.
33:39
And you were.
33:39
And within, like I said, three days, tops, I was feeling better.
33:45
And I've felt better ever since.
33:47
And I've still continued to check in.
33:50
Here's how I'm doing, guys.
33:51
So it's just so powerful to have that as a resource.
33:57
I mean, if I just had, you know, tried to pull myself out of this all by myself.
34:02
Yeah.
34:02
And I talked to a coach that I have and I talked to a peer of mine that works with me at Integration Nation.
34:08
I had a few, you know, deep conversations.
34:12
But yeah, I went and just told people, I'm not doing well.
34:16
And here's where I'm at.
34:19
And that in itself was so, so transformative in where I was at.
34:25
It's such great modeling.
34:27
And I totally fall prey to that all the time of suffering alone, even though, you know, I'm teaching other men to do this.
34:34
And it blows me away.
34:35
I imagine you've had this experience.
34:37
I will have guys who are literally paying me as a coach to support them.
34:42
I won't hear from them for like a week or two.
34:45
And then eventually I'll get an update when I keep poking.
34:47
It's like, oh, my God, I just had the worst week and a half of my life.
34:50
I was so in the dumps.
34:51
And I was like, I'm here to be used.
34:54
You know, like that's when you want to reach out.
34:55
And I think this is a big thing for men is often when we're in pain.
34:58
That's when, as I talk to guys, that's when we withdraw the most.
35:02
Yeah.
35:02
When almost always the antidote is to come forward.
35:05
Open to some kind of connection.
35:08
And in particular, you know, I think that was a great example of the way to use groups.
35:13
What I've seen with guys is just having somewhere to put our feelings.
35:18
That isn't our intimate partner and isn't just our ruminating mind.
35:23
And, you know, I'd be curious what your thoughts are, particularly with the nice guys I've worked with.
35:28
I've often seen kind of the big three seem to be challenges.
35:31
Anger, shame and fear.
35:33
They either are not connecting enough to their anger and don't know how to bring that online,
35:38
which sometimes a group is really potent for of like, hey, like sounds like you're actually pissed about that.
35:44
You know, instead of it coming out sideways, bring it forward.
35:46
Or shame that kind of you spoke to not, you know, not being good enough.
35:50
Or just the fear, the ruminating fear that I know I get lost in sometimes.
35:55
And we'll bring to groups and you guys will be like, oh, you know, it's probably going to be OK.
35:58
And I'm like, oh, fuck, you're right.
36:00
It's probably going to be OK.
36:01
And then it is OK.
36:02
Right.
36:02
But just having somewhere to bring that forward, I think, is one of the key things I've certainly experienced in groups.
36:09
And I think you just modeled great with those stories and in our group.
36:13
And, yeah, you know, I'm curious to kind of tying this all together.
36:16
What are some of the ways you think in particular that men's groups and male community can be why they can be such a key part in nice guy recovery?
36:29
I think there's several pieces I could throw out here.
36:33
I think just fundamentally is wired into our DNA is that our male ancestors have always spent time with other men.
36:43
I mean, if you go like look at us as a tribal community for, they say, a million and a half years.
36:49
Yeah, we were dependent on our fellow brothers, our tribesmen.
36:54
There was probably a tribe within a tribe.
36:57
There was probably probably the women, the children, the older and firm people that kind of huddled and stayed close.
37:03
And then probably the men or maybe the stronger women that could go out, hunt, gather, fight, bring it back.
37:09
But the men always did this together.
37:12
I mean, Mother Nature does not reward the lone wolf mentality in humans.
37:19
Number one, if we're not around others, we don't get to pass on our DNA.
37:22
And so that gene of being isolated doesn't get passed on for better.
37:29
And we just, most animals, humans included, just have a higher survival rate when they're a part of a group.
37:38
Whether it's a tribe, and we have so many different words, you know, tribe, pack, herd, flock, school.
37:45
I mean, you can go on and on and on.
37:47
I haven't looked up what is a group of raccoons the other day.
37:50
I'm trying to remember what a group of rats is called.
37:55
A mischief.
37:57
A mischief of rats.
37:59
Right?
38:00
So most animals do better in a group in terms of just if the group's strong, they have a greater likelihood of surviving.
38:07
And then, of course, passing on their DNA.
38:10
Because that is the imperative of every living thing is pass on your DNA.
38:15
So I think this thing to be with men is in our DNA.
38:18
It's wired into us by Mother Nature.
38:21
Even when we quit being so tribal, they say around 10,000 years ago, and we became more staying in one place, agrarian.
38:30
That's the beginning of probably what we call the patriarchy.
38:33
I call it ownership mentality.
38:35
We're going to own a piece of land, a tree, a cow.
38:37
Our woman, her vagina, the children that come out of her vagina, all of that ownership.
38:43
We'll own slaves.
38:44
We'll own the whole ownership mentality.
38:46
But even for about the last significant part of the last 10,000 years, a boy comes into a family.
38:55
You know, as soon as he's old enough, he's out with his dad, you know, moving rocks, milking cows, picking chickens up, hunting, doing whatever.
39:03
So even up until maybe the last 100 or so years, boys were with men, dad, uncles, cousins, grandpa.
39:11
You know, my wife grew up in Mexico, 8 of 10 kids.
39:16
Her father was one of 16 kids.
39:19
She's got a shitload of cousins, primos.
39:23
I don't know what you'd call a tribe of primos, a mischief of primos, maybe.
39:27
So, you know, even in her culture, she had cousins everywhere.
39:34
You know, I never hung out with cousins.
39:36
You know, I just didn't.
39:37
I grew up in the suburbs.
39:38
So it's really only been about the last 100 years and probably since World War II when fathers pretty much left all agrarian, you know, farming and just moved to the cities, started working in factories.
39:53
Started having jobs that took them away from their sons.
39:56
So it's really only been the last less than 100 years.
40:00
The boys just didn't grow up with much male influence.
40:03
So now there's no real form of any kind of masculine initiation, anything teaching young men how to get comfortable being comfortable, how to learn a trade, how to be self-sufficient, how to be part of a team.
40:16
There's just nothing teaching boys that anymore.
40:20
And that's because that is part of our evolutionary history.
40:23
It's part of our epigenetics.
40:25
We've always been around other men.
40:27
You know, your grandfather and my grandfather probably didn't spend that much time with our grandmothers.
40:34
They just didn't.
40:36
You know, they didn't walk around thinking, oh, we're soulmates.
40:39
We're best friends.
40:40
Let's do everything together.
40:41
Let's divide all of our responsibilities equally because everything has to be equal and fair.
40:46
They didn't think that way.
40:48
Right.
40:48
Your grandfather, my grandfather just got up and did what had to be done.
40:53
And our grandmothers got them, did what they had to do to get things done.
40:56
But they didn't spend all that much time together.
40:58
All right.
40:59
Now, I'm not saying we need to go back in time or try to reverse engineer anything.
41:04
All I'm saying is that now we live in a culture where men just don't as readily connect with men.
41:11
And because it is in our DNA, that goes back to what I was talking about.
41:16
This men's movement that doesn't necessarily look like a men's movement is men are going out and finding ways to connect with other men and finding out, oh, grappling is more fun if you have someone to grapple with.
41:29
Right.
41:30
Talking about your feelings while, you know, your wife decided she doesn't want to be married to you anymore.
41:35
And she's taking your kids from you and isn't going to let you talk to them.
41:38
And she's lawyered up and is trying to take you for what you're worth.
41:41
Oh, that goes better if you have someone to talk to.
41:45
Yeah.
41:45
You know, going out to, you know, pick up women in a bar.
41:49
You cannot look like such a predator or pervert if you're actually hanging out with two or three other guys having a good time.
41:55
And women will actually find that attractive and want to come towards you rather than you're just by yourself sitting in a corridor staring at women.
42:02
Right.
42:02
So everything works better if we get connected with men.
42:06
And we know that on an intuitive level.
42:11
Now, let me just say one last thing about relationships, because I've been working with a marketing company lately.
42:17
And they're really interested in this concept that having a good bond with men is the best thing we can do for our relationships.
42:24
And I'm trained as a marriage and family therapist.
42:27
I got my doctorate in marriage and family therapy at 29.
42:30
So I've been doing this for over 40 years working with relationships.
42:34
Now, I've bumbled my way through every relationship that I have.
42:37
But the thing that I would tell every couple that walked in my office back when I was in private practice is that the best thing you guys can do for your marriage is have good same sex friends.
42:47
Now, the women, you know, with your wife, they keep their girlfriends.
42:51
Now, they they fight.
42:53
They fall out.
42:54
You know, just last night, my wife was telling me about, you know, her friend that goes dancing with her.
43:00
She's mad at me.
43:01
I don't even know why.
43:02
I'm going, you know, all I can really say is women, women.
43:07
Women.
43:07
Women.
43:08
And then she goes, women.
43:10
So they fall out with each other.
43:12
But this morning we're walking.
43:14
I go, you and Anna OK?
43:15
She goes, yeah, yeah, we're fine.
43:17
We went out last night and we're dancing.
43:19
I go, what was wrong?
43:20
I don't know.
43:22
So, you know, women will keep their posse, you know, their girlfriends around.
43:30
Guys, if we had guy friends, we get in relationship, we lose them.
43:34
You know, there's too much to do.
43:35
And because we're doing that and all our guy friends, they get in relationship.
43:39
Also, we don't hear from them anymore either.
43:41
We just get invested in the woman.
43:43
That starts taking up all our free time.
43:45
We don't want to say, hey, I'm going to hang out with my buddies.
43:48
You know, I'm going to Austin, Texas tomorrow.
43:50
And, you know, Lupita and I were talking this morning and she's kind of basically, so what are you going to do there?
43:54
You know, I went there three times last year, so she thinks I have a girlfriend there.
43:58
But I said, no, I got a lot of guy friends there.
44:00
I've got a shitload of guy friends.
44:03
I said, I'm going to go do a guy's retreat while I'm there.
44:05
And I'm going to get the rest of my tattoo while I'm there.
44:07
And I said, and I'm going to go do a plant medicine journey, a therapy session while I'm there.
44:14
She goes, oh, how cool is that?
44:15
And I said, I'm going to have dinner three or four different nights with just a bunch of guys.
44:20
So, you know, I'm going to do that connection with guys.
44:24
But I didn't have that.
44:26
When Lupita and I got married eight and a half years ago, I had maybe one and a half good guy friends.
44:32
And I say a half because one, I was just ready to end it because of some history.
44:36
And that's when I went and joined a men's program before I met you.
44:42
Because I knew that this marriage would not survive the struggles, the stuff she and I both were triggering in each other if I wasn't in around men.
44:53
Men that I could say when I was hurting, when I was feeling pissed off and resentful, to share my victories with, to share my slippery slopes with.
45:02
Oh, you know, that woman's been real friendly with me.
45:05
You know, I needed a group of men for that relationship to survive so that I had someone to talk to when my best friend was pissed off at me and I didn't know why.
45:15
You know, somebody, a group of guys in my life filling my bucket so I wasn't needy on that one person to always be there for me.
45:24
Some people just give me kind of perspective and say, Robert, she'll get over it.
45:29
She always does.
45:30
Oh, you're right.
45:31
She does always get over it.
45:32
Right.
45:32
I needed those men in my life.
45:34
And now seven plus years later, the marriage is thriving.
45:39
It's strong.
45:41
We get through things quickly.
45:43
We still have a little flare up.
45:44
Yeah, I do better with it.
45:46
She does better with it.
45:47
We're stronger.
45:48
My businesses have grown.
45:50
My health is improved.
45:52
I'm carrying the amount of weight right now that I had in my 30s.
45:56
So I'm fit.
45:59
I'm healthy.
46:00
Financially, I'm stronger.
46:02
Everything is stronger, but especially my marriage because of being with a group of men, both in the program I paid to join and the groups of guys that I've created ever since.
46:14
Like the groups with you and others we meet every other week.
46:17
Having writers retreats in my home once a year.
46:20
You've been to that as well.
46:21
You know, I go to Austin and I'm already sent an email this morning.
46:24
Guys, I'm going to be there.
46:25
Let's go get dinner on Friday.
46:27
And already, guys, you're saying, I'm in.
46:29
I'm in.
46:30
I'm in.
46:31
So I've built a tribe of men.
46:41
So I've built a tribe of men that has leveled my life up in really a relatively short amount of time in quantifiable ways.
46:42
So both in terms of my income, my business, my business, my health, my reach, my relationship, and just my happiness and joy and purpose and passion.
46:54
All of those things can be measuredly shown to have improved just because I got into a men's program.
47:01
So, again, not only do I offer community for men, I seek it and take advantage of it because I know the value.
47:12
Kind of like when I was in grad school and I had a professor that said, if you believe in therapy, like if you're training to be a therapist, get therapy.
47:20
And I've heard so many coaching, you know, mentors say the same thing.
47:24
You believe in coaching, get coaching.
47:26
You believe in men's programs, be in a men's program.
47:29
And so I believe in them.
47:31
So I am.
47:32
Yeah.
47:33
This is one of the things I most admire about my experience of you is that you do walk your walk, right?
47:40
You're not just sitting on the pedestal teaching this stuff.
47:43
You're in an active engagement and process of learning and growing, even as you continue teaching.
47:50
And to me, that's extremely trustable.
47:53
It's the ones who think they have it all figured out that I'm like, I'm going to stay away from you.
47:57
And you know me well enough.
47:58
I teach from my fuck ups.
48:00
Yeah, totally.
48:01
But that's why it's so relatable.
48:02
And that's what people tell me, Robert, you know, you're so authentic.
48:06
But nobody, 30 years ago, nobody would have accused me of being authentic.
48:10
Nobody ever said, Robert, I value how authentic.
48:13
You are.
48:14
I just wasn't.
48:15
There was nothing authentic about me.
48:17
So, yeah, I found that the best stories come out of the fuck ups, you know, and that's the ones that everybody can relate to.
48:24
Absolutely.
48:26
And just as we start to wind down here, I want to be mindful of your time.
48:30
I'm thinking about that thing you said of, you know, particularly the younger generations now being raised by nice guys.
48:36
And that something I've experienced in men's group, particularly my one with you and other ones I've been in and that I'm also leading for men is this kind of renegotiation of there is no perfect father.
48:50
No.
48:51
Right.
48:51
We had a father who was too assertive.
48:53
We had a father who was too much of a pushover, not present enough, too present.
48:56
Like, but what's cool about men's groups is, you know, Thich Nhat Hanh had this old thing of the next Buddha will be the Sangha.
49:03
Right.
49:04
So it's the community.
49:05
And I've experienced that in men's group, kind of tying it back to part of what I appreciate about our group is we're both we're all authorities in our own and learning from each other.
49:15
And it's like the group itself becomes this kind of perfect father in a sense where not one individual can hold it all.
49:24
But usually someone, one person has something to bring that unlocks, you know, growth or healing or acceptance that is only possible.
49:34
I would say in that group dynamic, like I love one on one coaching.
49:38
I've done lots of one on one therapy as well.
49:40
And groups are where my heart is because it's just where I see men transform the fastest.
49:45
I shared this this weekend.
49:47
I do my father work by committee.
49:50
You know, inherently, no father could have given us everything that we needed.
49:56
I mean, go back again, 10,000 years or more.
49:59
We were raised and initiated by a tribe of masterful men.
50:04
And so I the analogy I give is like Swiss cheese.
50:08
Any one man, any one father is going to be a slice of Swiss cheese with several holes in it.
50:13
Yeah, there's I've had guys complain.
50:15
My father didn't teach me how to work on cars.
50:17
OK, I guess he didn't know how to work on cars.
50:20
My father didn't teach me to play an instrument.
50:23
OK, my father didn't teach me how to approach women.
50:26
Maybe he sucked at it.
50:28
You know, my father didn't teach me how to invest.
50:31
You know, OK, that was the holes, right, of your father.
50:34
But in a tribe, all of those pieces, slices of Swiss cheese all get overlaid.
50:41
And if you have enough resources, no more holes.
50:45
All the holes, the gaps get filled.
50:47
And a boy can learn everything he needs to learn.
50:51
So, yeah, our fathers were inherently deficient in being good fathers.
50:57
Your father, I'm a father.
50:58
We have our holes.
51:00
But I tell you what, if as we as men, as we do our father work and recover from the gaps that that affected us as children, because our fathers were less than perfect.
51:12
They had their own holes from their own fathers.
51:14
If we can do our father work by committee.
51:19
And that's and that's what you do.
51:21
It's what I do is I just surround myself with so many good men.
51:24
Like when I shot those videos and posted them to our group a couple of weeks ago.
51:29
Each one of you gave me a different thoughtful insight or word of encouragement that I thought.
51:36
Perfect.
51:37
That was just what I needed.
51:38
Now, you know, that was the beauty of having a few of you give me the feedback rather than just one person who would only see it through his lenses.
51:46
And that was so helpful.
51:49
So, yes, we men need that fatherhood committee.
51:54
Our dads were inherently imperfect and flawed.
51:58
They couldn't they couldn't give us everything we needed.
52:01
So that's our job today to go out and build our own new kind of father committee.
52:06
And because we're still doing our work.
52:08
I mean, I'm still doing my father work.
52:11
Ditto.
52:13
As you get to see every other week oftentimes.
52:16
Thank you so much for your time.
52:19
As we come to a close here, just any last piece of advice you'd love to give to any men seeking more authenticity or connection or recovery?
52:28
Yeah, I think we pretty much nailed it.
52:32
You want the best of everything in life.
52:34
You want to attract a good woman.
52:36
You want to keep a good woman.
52:38
You want to create tremendous polarity and excitement and challenge and love and fun and a good woman.
52:45
You want to take your work to the next level.
52:48
You're whatever it is.
52:50
And I know that sounds like we're lumping a lot.
52:52
Everything is better when we have good men in our life.
52:57
And so I can't preach that enough.
53:01
So even if you don't believe me, give it a try.
53:05
If you're feeling down, you're struggling with something, call up a buddy you haven't talked to for a little while and just say, do you have time to talk for a few minutes?
53:13
I've been struggling with something.
53:14
Just say that.
53:16
And I bet you'll find that buddy will be available.
53:18
Let me clear this.
53:20
I can do it tonight.
53:21
Yeah, I'm there for you.
53:23
And just see how it feels to tell a buddy something that you're struggling with or something that you're celebrating.
53:31
Call somebody up and just say, can I tell you something I'm really excited about, something I'm really proud of?
53:36
And just try it.
53:38
Just try it.
53:39
I've said it better myself.
53:41
Thank you so much, Robert, for being here.
53:44
And until next time, guys.
53:46
Bye.
53:47
Bye.
53:48
Bye.
53:49
Bye.
53:50
you
53:52
Thank you.