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Chuck DeGroat on Healing What's Within · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
0:13
21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you
0:36
with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:46
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Chuck DeGroat to
0:49
the program. Chuck is a professor
0:52
of pastoral care and Christian spirituality
0:55
at Western Theological Seminary in Holland,
0:58
Michigan, where he also serves as the founding
1:01
executive director of the Clinical Mental Health
1:03
Counseling Program. He is a licensed
1:06
therapist, spiritual director, author,
1:09
retreat leader, speaker, and faculty
1:12
member with the Soul Care Institute.
1:15
As a therapist, he specializes in navigating
1:18
issues of abuse and trauma,
1:21
pastoral and leadership, Health and Doubt,
1:24
and Dark nights on the faith Journey.
1:26
He trains clergy in handling issues of
1:29
abuse and trauma, conducts pastor and
1:32
planter assessments, and facilitates church
1:35
consultations and investigations of
1:38
abuse. Before transitioning to
1:40
training and forming pastors, Chuck
1:43
served as a pastor in Orlando and
1:46
San Francisco. He and his wife Sarah have been
1:49
married for 30 years and have two
1:51
adult daughters. A, uh,
1:54
reminder, before we start today's conversation, please
1:57
take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave
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a review and share Future Christian with a
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and Future Christian on Instagram.
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Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro
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ah.com
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with comments, questions or ideas for
2:17
future episodes. We appreciate your
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voice in how we faithfully discern the future
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of the church.
2:33
>> Chuck: Okay.
2:33
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond
2:36
Jr. And today I'm pleased to be welcoming
2:39
Chuck De Groat. And I'm sorry, Chuck, did he want, like, titles
2:41
or.
2:42
>> Chuck: No, no, Chuck is great.
2:45
>> Loren: Yeah. Thanks so much for being here. You've been on the show before.
2:47
But just share, if you would, briefly, just about your, your
2:50
background and uh, what, what's,
2:53
what's going on with you today?
2:55
>> Chuck: Yeah, I, uh, I was in,
2:58
uh. Well, I'm originally from Long Island Island, New
3:01
York, um, by way of Iowa,
3:03
Chicago, Florida, San Francisco, and now West
3:06
Michigan. I was a pastor in Orlando
3:09
and in San Francisco and
3:12
started some clinical counseling centers in those
3:15
places. And then I've been, ah, a faculty member at
3:17
a seminary in West Michigan, Western Theological Seminary for the
3:20
last 11 years where I, um, lead a clinical
3:23
counseling program here and so, yeah, it's been a
3:26
pretty full life. And I'm a therapist, I'm a pastor as
3:29
well as a therapist. So I've been practicing as a
3:32
therapist for 25 years as well.
3:35
>> Loren: Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. And then,
3:38
uh, you're, you're good at this. And I could probably use some of
3:41
this later on after we wrap some spiritual
3:44
practices that uh, are rec. You like to do or
3:47
find meaningful.
3:48
>> Chuck: Well, um, I
3:51
think at the top of the list is
3:54
contemplative, uh, prayer, silent prayer.
3:57
M. Um, I grew up in a tradition
4:00
where, uh, prayer was wrapped around a lot of
4:03
words. And so, um, for me
4:06
now, silence, uh, a more
4:08
imaginative space that I go
4:11
into. Um, those are important practices.
4:14
Breathing, connecting to my body. So very
4:17
embodied. Contemplative prayer practice is kind of right at
4:20
the top of my list. But you know, I love, I
4:23
love engaging nature walks in nature walking
4:25
labyrinths.
4:26
>> Loren: Yeah.
4:27
>> Chuck: Um, and things like that too.
4:29
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome for sharing. Thanks you. Thank you for
4:32
sharing that. Well, we're kind of jumping right into it
4:35
because Chuck has a heart out and a, ah,
4:38
lot of content actually to talk about in his book.
4:41
Chuck's the author of the book Healing
4:44
what's Within. You'll have to give the subtitle, but
4:47
when does this book come out, Chuck? As a recording?
4:49
>> Chuck: October 8th of 24.
4:52
>> Loren: Okay. So, uh, I can't remember when this is scheduled there, but
4:54
so be on the lookout. I'm sure it'll be
4:57
available for pre order regardless. Right?
5:00
>> Chuck: Yeah, that's right. That's right.
5:02
>> Loren: So whether it's uh, whether it's pre October or post
5:05
October, be on lookout for it. But I
5:08
think so. And I had the, I had the
5:10
privilege, Chuck, to hear you when you spoke at
5:14
Steve, uh, Cust's conference. Yeah, that was like a year
5:16
ago.
5:17
>> Chuck: Yeah, that's right.
5:18
>> Loren: In the Denver metro. And you touched on some of these themes.
5:21
But talk a little bit about
5:24
like, I hate to say what inspired the book, but really like
5:27
how this coalesced into a book.
5:30
>> Chuck: Yeah, well, I had done some work before
5:32
this on narcissism in the church and
5:35
um, you know, that conversation,
5:38
there's a lot that goes into that. Narcissism, um, and
5:41
spiritual abuse in the church, uh, is
5:44
pretty fraught territory and
5:46
um, you encounter people in a lot of
5:49
pain. And I had my own experience many years ago
5:52
too. And so as I thought about what
5:54
might be next, I really wanted to focus on
5:57
the healing process. I didn't want to do like a
6:00
narcissism book. 2.0 or something like that.
6:03
But, you know, now when we experience
6:06
things that are hard and that we can't really
6:09
control, like events that happen to us,
6:11
um, maybe a desire for justice that we just can't
6:14
get, like, so what do we do then? And how do we do the
6:17
healing work with within? One of the things we know about
6:20
trauma is that trauma is not what happens to you, but what happens
6:23
within.
6:24
>> Loren: Yeah.
6:24
>> Chuck: The imprint that's left behind. And so
6:27
this is really a book that invites people to do that deep
6:30
inner work, but, um, also framed
6:33
up through three questions from
6:36
Genesis Chapter three. So I really wanted to
6:39
also, uh, invite people to hear God's
6:42
curious and compassionate questions, um,
6:45
with a different ear than they might have heard them with
6:48
before, perhaps if they'd grown up in traditions
6:51
where God was particularly angry in
6:53
Genesis Chapter three. And, um.
6:56
>> Loren: Yeah.
6:56
>> Chuck: And so I really wanted to sort of frame
6:59
those in a compassionate way to say, you know, in the
7:02
midst of your pain, your trauma, experiences of injustice,
7:05
abuse, God shows up with kindness and
7:08
compassion.
7:10
>> Loren: Why don't you share a little bit about. Because.
7:13
Why don't you share a little about Internal family systems theory? Because I
7:16
think that certainly has a key
7:19
role, that concept or framework within the book. Why
7:22
don't you explain that a little bit for our listeners? Uh, we might reference.
7:24
>> Chuck: Yeah, there's one particular chapter. I think it's like chapter seven,
7:27
six, five. I can't remember.
7:30
>> Loren: Yeah.
7:30
>> Chuck: Um, where in fact, I even start out with,
7:33
um, the movie Inside Out. The first one. I don't think when
7:36
I submitted my manuscript, I knew a second one was coming out.
7:39
But, uh.
7:39
>> Loren: Yeah.
7:40
>> Chuck: Yeah, I found Internal Family Systems 20 years
7:43
ago now, um, on a VHS tape
7:45
at a school where I was doing some teaching. And it blew
7:48
my mind. Because the real
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simple way of talking about it is we all have parts.
7:54
Which is to say we, uh, wake up in the morning and
7:58
part of us wants to lay in bed. And another part wants to get
8:01
going. And another part says, I'm not even sure I want to
8:04
be in this world anymore. And
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we're complex, we're multifaceted. And I
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think the reality is, is because of the
8:14
pain of our lives, the experiences that we've had, there
8:16
are different parts of us that show up in different ways at
8:19
different times. And, you know, there's. There's probably a version
8:22
of me that shows up to something like this that tend. Wants to
8:25
do well. You know, wants to. Wants Loren
8:28
to appreciate, you know, how articulate
8:31
or articulate. See, I can't even say the Word I am,
8:34
um, and ah, how much I have to offer.
8:36
>> Loren: Yeah.
8:37
>> Chuck: Um, and other parts of me that might be sort
8:40
of hiding the background that carry shame or
8:43
anxiety or. And we all live like
8:46
this, we end up living pretty divided lives.
8:49
And um, the work of internal family systems
8:52
is really about uh, being deeply
8:55
connected to our true selves, um,
8:58
and living from that core and anchored place
9:01
well, remaining well, continuing
9:04
to have access to these other different parts of us
9:07
that tend uh, to go off on their own but
9:09
really need a lot of love and care, uh, in the
9:12
process. And so part of what I introduced folks
9:15
to in this is a bit of that work of befriending
9:18
the different parts of us that sometimes uh,
9:21
take over, sometimes perfectionistic, sometimes are angry,
9:24
sometimes we're ashamed, um,
9:27
and uh, with a lot of kindness and hospitality
9:30
within.
9:32
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. And
9:35
um, I'm just thinking again, like, I think I said this in my email to you
9:38
that this is in many ways like a book that I read that I found so
9:41
helpful for me and that's why I wanted to talk to you and I'm hoping
9:44
it's helpful for our listeners as well.
9:46
Um, but I'm just thinking about like
9:50
the parts like I was at a church group and I've been really trying
9:53
to do some like parts work myself
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and I was in a group where I felt like I was.
9:59
I'm trying to be aware of like again how my parts show up. So like
10:02
in this group, like I felt like, oh, I'm talking too much and that
10:05
part is being too much. And then I talked to my
10:08
wife and she's like, hey, you didn't say enough.
10:11
So it's just being aware of those
10:13
parts, right? Yes. Is a learning endeavor.
10:16
>> Chuck: Yeah, it is. And you know,
10:19
I think this is part of growing in self awareness, you know
10:22
that as you become more aware of how you show up in
10:25
different times in different places. Like someone reflected
10:28
back to me recently that they sensed that I was a bit
10:31
anxious and that I was, that I, I was coming off
10:34
as like the funny guy. I was trying to be the funny guy. And I
10:36
thought, oh, that's a really old story in my body.
10:39
Like that, that was one of the ways that I used to cope growing up
10:42
on Long Island, New York, where I grew up in the midst of the
10:45
anxiety and tumultuousness I grew
10:48
up in. So I'd keep it light, I'll keep it
10:50
funny. And, and so how do I
10:53
become more aware of that part of me that's okay to
10:56
Be funny. Mhm. But I also want to
10:59
be aware of when it's a way of coping
11:01
because of stress and anxiety and other things.
11:05
>> Loren: So you mentioned the
11:07
befriending of our
11:09
parts in the book, befriending our Suffering.
11:12
I think that's been one of the most intriguing
11:15
aspects of IFS internal family systems
11:18
theory as I've learned it. Um, but,
11:21
uh, I'm thinking about, I'm not going to say my parts,
11:24
right. But I'm going to think about my parts and I think about
11:27
like, it was a real revelation to
11:30
me to think about some of
11:33
these parts that are behaving in ways that are
11:36
not super helpful for me. Right. Moving forward
11:39
and then learning, like, hey, like those
11:41
parts can actually like really be helpful
11:44
and just about figuring it out. So like,
11:47
I want to really contextualize this
11:50
because again, this is a, this is a podcast for
11:54
pastors and church leaders. So I want to contextualize
11:56
it to that context and space.
11:59
And I remember like having this
12:02
conversation with another guest. But like,
12:05
I guess I'll speak somewhat general generally
12:08
for myself. Like, I can imagine
12:11
in a church context where I have a part
12:15
that's as a pastor
12:18
that it's hard to think of that part as helpful
12:21
when it's constantly behaving in an unhelpful ways.
12:24
Like it's like, oh, you know, the budget is
12:26
screwed and, um, you know, everybody hates you or
12:29
whatever. Or, you know, there's a
12:32
congregant that really brings up some memories
12:35
of a difficult relationship. Right.
12:40
>> Chuck: Yeah. I mean, I, I think that all we
12:43
can do is sort of control what's going on in us and be aware of
12:46
what's going on in us, you know, and then, and you know, if
12:49
you do have some leadership capacity with
12:51
others, there's a way that, uh, I think if you're doing your
12:54
own work, that you can lean in and begin to invite others to
12:57
become more aware. But the reality
13:00
is, like when you, when you have a group of people come around
13:03
a table, well, if my funny guy is showing up
13:06
and her angry side is
13:09
showing up, and his, you know, quiet, passive
13:11
side, you know, um, it
13:14
might be a disaster of a meeting. Um,
13:17
it's, it's always best when we can bring the fullness of
13:20
ourselves to a meeting. And so
13:22
learning this, doing this work and learning this language as a kind
13:25
of shorthand so that we can show up more
13:28
fully is really important, I think.
13:30
And the reality is we have lots of different ways of,
13:33
of coping. Um, our parts are
13:36
really in many respects Ways of
13:39
coping, uh, in the m. In the midst of our
13:41
anxiety and pain and things like that. And if
13:44
we can become more aware of not
13:47
only how we're showing up in the present moment, but what the roots are. Like, how
13:50
did I. How did that start? You know,
13:53
it's. That could be really helpful.
13:55
>> Loren: Yeah. I did something in CPE where I had
13:58
a clinical, uh, pastoral education for our
14:01
listeners, where I had to write, like, a. A narrative.
14:04
Foundational narrative or something like that. And again, it was
14:06
something. When I thought about
14:09
that narrative in the context of
14:13
ifs, like, my parts, I was like, holy smokes.
14:16
Like, that's. It's all right there.
14:18
>> Chuck: Yeah.
14:18
>> Loren: Uh, and then talking to one of my good friends who is well
14:21
trained in ifs. Like, he similarly, like, has a
14:24
story that he's kind of recognized that
14:27
really has those parts playing
14:30
different roles. So it is. It is. Boy, it's
14:33
powerful.
14:34
>> Chuck: Yeah.
14:35
>> Loren: I don't want to get too far into this to not talk
14:38
about Genesis 3, those three questions. So
14:41
why don't you just talk through those three questions? Because, man, for me,
14:44
they were so holy smokes.
14:46
Foundational or impactful?
14:48
>> Chuck: Ah, yeah. It's
14:51
a lot of people, I think, experience. This is a different way of
14:54
engaging, um, God or being.
14:57
Being, um, engaged by God in Genesis chapter three. And
15:00
for me, this goes back a long, long time ago,
15:03
early 2000s, where I was leading some retreats.
15:05
And it struck me that God's where are
15:08
you? Was, um, maybe not as angry as I'd
15:11
heard it before. You know, people know. Most
15:14
people know the backstory of Genesis 3. This
15:17
slithering serpent sort of sidles up to
15:19
Adam and Eve and says, did God really say that you must not
15:22
eat from the tree? And really what the serpent is doing
15:25
is it's causing, um, doubt or
15:28
questions about God's goodness, about Adam and
15:30
Eve's enoughness. It's just raising lots of
15:33
questions. And Adam and Eve are left with
15:36
this big, big question of, like, are we going
15:39
to have to grasp for that fruit in order
15:42
to, um, fill ourselves in a
15:45
way that maybe God hadn't filled us or
15:48
to meet needs that maybe God hadn't met. Like, uh, in the midst
15:51
of that question, are we enough? They go ahead
15:54
and grasp. And of course, they're awakened to their own
15:56
nakedness. They feel exposed, and so
15:59
they're ashamed and they hide and they sew fig leaves.
16:02
Most people know that part of the story. It's the next part
16:05
where God is walking in the cool the day, which is
16:08
really interesting because he has commentators
16:11
really wrestle with what's going on there. But the reality is that God was
16:14
probably walking during the part of the day when
16:17
the sun had gone down, when it was cooler, probably
16:20
during the time of the day, at least the way the story goes.
16:23
Um, that God and Adam and Eve would have taken
16:25
a walk. I think that's. That's, you know, whoever is narrating
16:28
the story is trying to tell something of a story like that. Like,
16:31
they were friends in the garden. And now God's walking in the
16:34
garden, like, where did you go? I
16:37
miss you. And that's what struck me is
16:40
like, God's, where are you? In fact, the word where is the
16:43
first word of the book of Lamentations. It's a word of
16:45
heartbreak. It's like a broken friend. Where
16:48
are you? Um, I remember I got lost a number of
16:51
years ago in the woods. And, you know, my dad was crying
16:54
out, where are you, son? Where are you? Um,
16:57
and so that's so
17:00
different. Like, if you grew up in a tradition where God was
17:03
angry and it was like a where the hell are you?
17:06
Um, who told you? So. So where are you?
17:09
Is a kind question, and it's a question that invites us to
17:12
come out of hiding. Um, to become aware
17:15
of how we're hiding and the fig leaves that we've
17:18
sown.
17:18
>> Loren: Yeah.
17:19
>> Chuck: Um, we talked a lot about that. The second question, who told
17:22
you? Which gets us to reflect on our
17:25
stories, like, how did you get here in the first place?
17:28
And what story have you been believing about yourself?
17:30
And then the third question, have you eaten from the tree? Which is to
17:33
say, where have you taken your hunger and thirst?
17:37
Um, where have you gone for satisfaction?
17:39
And, uh, my sense is
17:42
that that takes us to the New Testament and the question that
17:45
Jesus asks more than any other question.
17:48
And that's, um, what do you
17:51
want? What do you long for? You know? And I think
17:54
God is asking us, what do you long
17:56
for? Wanting us to
17:59
get in touch with our deepest desires and deepest
18:02
longings.
18:04
>> Loren: Yeah. It really reminds me of something else you talked about in the book
18:07
about that. I think you wrote about
18:10
addiction really being about disconnection.
18:13
>> Chuck: Yeah.
18:14
>> Loren: Which I think is a powerful, powerful, uh, way to say it.
18:17
But I was reminded of the where are you? Like, one of my
18:20
previous guests, Yolanda Solomon, I think she
18:22
made this exact point that throughout Scripture, that question
18:25
is being asked by God, where are you?
18:28
And it's such a powerful
18:31
reframing to think about. Not as, like, you said,
18:34
that angry, where are you? But, hey,
18:37
where are You. And I think it does fit with the narrative of
18:40
Scripture when we think about.
18:43
She, um, referenced another story I hadn't thought about. But certainly the
18:45
prodigal son is the most obvious one that comes
18:48
to mind. Yeah, I think
18:51
the. Who told you? I feel like that really resonates
18:54
with the parts. Right?
18:56
>> Chuck: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think
18:59
as you start listening within, you begin to hear
19:02
some different voices. And, um, I don't know about
19:05
you. Maybe I do. Maybe people who are listening
19:08
right now are like, he hears voices.
19:11
Why did Loren invite him on? But I
19:14
do think that in any given day,
19:17
as I'm listening within, um,
19:20
there are parts of me that are like.
19:22
They're out ahead of me, and they're like, you've got this.
19:25
You can do this. You're well prepared. You're going to be fine. There
19:28
are parts of me that are like, oh, no, stay
19:31
home today. This isn't going to go
19:34
well. Um, I. This morning I taught a
19:37
class here at the seminary. And, uh, on some material I
19:39
hadn't taught on in a while. And I even told the class, you know,
19:42
there's a part of me that comes in kind of excited about
19:45
today, um, with a voice of like, isn't this
19:48
wonderful that you get to teach on this? And then there's another part of
19:51
me that just wanted to kind of crawl into a hole this morning
19:54
and not come out. Um, because I have this
19:57
sense that, uh, you know, I. Gosh, I
20:00
haven't taught on this in a long, long time. And what if I, you
20:03
know, what if it doesn't go well? That's, uh, my shame sort
20:06
of catching up with me. And there are lots of other different
20:08
voices within me at any given time, uh,
20:11
that can be critical, that, uh, can be judgmental
20:14
of others, that can be grandiose, that can.
20:17
That can be beautiful. And so
20:20
I. It's always a fun exercise. I mean, people, as you
20:23
probably know, are kind of dubious about this until they
20:26
start practicing it.
20:27
>> Loren: Right. It sounds super wonky. Like,
20:30
I was reading. I was reading, uh.
20:33
Because. What is it? Schwartz's big white cover book. I can't
20:36
remember the title.
20:37
>> Chuck: Is that no Bad Parts or something else?
20:39
>> Loren: No, I think it was, like, an introduction. I can't remember.
20:42
Yeah, it's frankly. It's frankly,
20:45
like, boring. Like, I couldn't make it through. It was so boring.
20:48
Um, like, I was. I was reading it, like, wanting to read, like, what's,
20:51
um, his name? Um. Gosh, who's
20:54
the. Who's the family systems rabbi guy that I'M blanking
20:56
on.
20:57
>> Chuck: Oh, Friedman, Friedman.
20:58
>> Loren: Like I was expecting like Friedman level of just like brilliance and
21:01
you know, just humor and dry wit and everything. And it wasn't
21:04
quite that, but I was reading that his, his
21:07
things about these parts and like what's coming to mind, Chuck, is
21:10
like Frank Peretti, like
21:12
you know, like these uh,
21:16
you know we're. There's just this inherent mistrust
21:19
of just anything that sounds different and oh gosh, that might
21:22
be bad. Which I guess is a part. Right? Might say almost.
21:25
Right?
21:26
>> Chuck: Yeah, yeah, uh, I think so.
21:29
>> Loren: But I was thinking of uh, when I'm thinking
21:32
about.
21:35
When I'm thinking about uh, parts and. Who told
21:38
you. I can't remember if you write about this in the
21:41
book, but I'm thinking of. And I'm blanking on titles
21:44
right now, I think. Is it Ashley Cook,
21:47
uh, who co wrote a book on ifs from a Christian
21:49
perspective?
21:50
>> Chuck: Oh, Allison Cook.
21:51
>> Loren: Allison Cook, yes. And they talk about, I can't remember the
21:54
co author but they talk about like the spirit led self.
21:57
>> Chuck: Yeah.
21:57
>> Loren: So talk a little bit if you can. Just about. I don't
22:00
know, I don't know if you use similar phraseology or naming. Uh,
22:04
but how do you know?
22:05
>> Chuck: Like what?
22:05
>> Loren: Because again, just to be transparent,
22:08
because there was a, there was a time for me where I like, I
22:11
could say like hey, I don't think that's the voice of truth. But I
22:14
don't. Mhm. I don't know if I can hear like the
22:17
voice of truth. Right.
22:18
>> Chuck: Yeah, yeah. I mean it goes by
22:21
various names. You know, even in the Bible, Paul talks about the
22:24
old self and the new self, you know, and in the Christian tradition
22:27
it's become the true self. Um, Allison and
22:30
Kim Miller talk about it as the spirit
22:33
led self. However you describe it, what they're saying
22:36
is this is the core of you. Um, this is the
22:39
image bearing core where God dwells. This
22:42
is you when you're anchored and rooted, you know,
22:45
in that Ephesians 3 kind of sense.
22:47
>> Loren: Mhm.
22:48
>> Chuck: Um, that's your adult self and that we all
22:50
have a ah, capacity to
22:53
connect to our adult cells and live from our adult cells. But
22:56
the reality is, is that because of what happens to us
22:59
and what we experience in life, that we live out of
23:02
these, these other cells that um, that are
23:05
just trying to cope frantically oftentimes in the world.
23:08
Right. And so maybe it's a perfectionist you or a critic
23:11
you or a workaholic
23:13
you, um, maybe it's a self
23:16
sabotaging you, you Know, but there's a constellation.
23:19
I remember when I was doing my IFS work.
23:21
I started back in 2009,
23:24
2010, something like that, with Jay early out in San
23:27
Francisco. And, uh, I remember
23:30
calling my wife one day after a session, and I was like, I'm up to
23:33
14. Um, but the
23:36
idea being that the true self is that
23:39
anchored self, where you are the
23:42
conductor of the orchestra, you create a place at the table for
23:44
all the other selves around the self to come and sit and
23:47
be known and seen. And when we're,
23:51
uh, when we're fragmented, when we're
23:53
frazzled, when we're overwhelmed, when we're exhausted, it's
23:56
like some of these other selves get out ahead of us and m.
23:59
You know, perfectionistic me drives the
24:02
train, or self sabotaging me drives
24:05
the bus, or, you know, and that's
24:08
what we have to begin to notice is like, um, in any given
24:11
day, at any given moment, like, for me, even before our time,
24:14
I'm asking myself, where are you, Chuck? You
24:17
know, because I want to make sure that I'm here,
24:20
sitting in this chair, and it's not like some performative
24:23
version of me or maybe some overwhelmed and ashamed
24:26
part of me that, you know, that I'm. I'm here and
24:29
I'm present in my body and ready to talk to
24:31
you.
24:32
>> Loren: Yeah, let's stay on that theme, because I wanted to talk
24:35
about. I'm going to try to find the quote here
24:38
on page 80. I thought this
24:41
was, frankly. I mean, again,
24:44
I grew up very conservative, so I found this almost
24:47
revelatory. You write that while some might contend that our
24:50
core problem as humans is that we think too highly
24:53
of ourselves, you say. I'd argue that most of us
24:56
live with an underlying sense of worthlessness,
24:58
alienation, and disillusionment.
25:01
I mean, again, as someone who grew up very conservative
25:03
Christian, that quote is shocking,
25:06
almost.
25:07
>> Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. And what we know
25:10
is that there are certainly people who think too highly of
25:13
themselves, but underneath that, inevitably, is shame.
25:16
>> Loren: Yeah.
25:16
>> Chuck: Um, and we see this play out. You know, this
25:19
is sort of a psychological truism. I think it's a biblical
25:22
one, too. There are a number of people now
25:25
who are saying, even before Adam and Eve grasped for the
25:28
fruit, which, you know, is sometimes theologized
25:31
as some sort of arrogant decision, Adam and
25:34
Eve's pride. What they're wrestling with
25:37
are these questions that are raised by the
25:40
serpent. They're being gaslit by the way they're
25:43
being abused, you know, by the serpent,
25:45
who is raising questions that Send
25:48
them spiraling like maybe we're not enough. Maybe
25:51
we're missing something which I call shame.
25:54
And so shame precedes even the grasping of the fruit.
25:57
And so I think for, for all of us. And
26:00
you know, I've done some significant work on narcissism.
26:03
You know, the way we understand that psychologically is that you're not
26:06
born with narciss. You don't wake up one day and choose to become
26:09
a narcissist. It's born out of a way of
26:12
coping. I'm going to become grandiose. I'm going
26:15
to become the bully because I experienced abuse or I
26:18
was bullied or I was small or I was made to feel ashamed.
26:21
And I never ever want to feel that again.
26:25
>> Loren: Yeah, that really makes sense again from a parts perspective. Right, because
26:28
you, uh, I mean, I'm not an expert, but I imagine
26:30
that that narcissistic part is
26:33
just doing super extra overtime.
26:36
Right?
26:37
>> Chuck: Yeah, that's it. 100%. And that, that's
26:40
the, that would be a take on narcissism
26:43
that, uh, very few really
26:45
get and understand. Like, I, I rarely hear that articulated the
26:48
way you just articulated that, Loren. But I'd say
26:51
it's, it's a really important next, um,
26:54
step in our understanding of it. Because too often when
26:57
people talk about narcissists, thinking about that
27:00
beautiful space we call Twitter or X, you know,
27:03
uh, where we have such healthy conversations all the time. But
27:06
people will call other people narcissists in a
27:09
way that, uh, they seem to be labeling them
27:12
and speaking to the very core of who they are. I've
27:15
been doing this work for a long time, and I know narcissism
27:18
is never reflective of the core of who
27:21
a person is. A person at their core is
27:24
loved as an image bearer, is seen and known by God. But the
27:27
narcissist seems to be driving the bus,
27:29
you know, and it's loud and the narcissist is causing a
27:32
lot of problems, you know, but it's just a part.
27:36
>> Loren: Yeah. And I think that gets into something that
27:39
I found intriguing in the book,
27:41
in, in the lecture I heard you give.
27:44
I mean, there certainly is in some ways. I don't know
27:47
if you want to dive too deep into this, but there certainly is
27:50
a theological framework or undergirding that's
27:53
a little shift away from like this total
27:56
depravity type mentality towards
27:59
like a, at least in my own language, I
28:02
would say as like a brokenness or, ah,
28:05
a woundedness. I think you use that word Right.
28:08
>> Chuck: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I
28:10
mean, I want to start with original goodness. And I want to say
28:13
that that's core to who we are, you know, and we are image
28:16
bearing, which is to say we're made for worth, belonging
28:19
and purpose. But, uh, the
28:22
reality is, is that there is this. I call it
28:25
a primal wound. You know, uh, instead of original
28:28
sin, I talk about a primal wound. And the
28:31
reason I do that is, you know, wound is the
28:34
trauma. By the way, trauma is the Greek word
28:37
for wound, right? So when we're talking about trauma, we're talking about
28:40
a core wound. And when we talk about trauma, we're talking
28:42
about disconnection at its core. And so
28:45
really what Genesis 3 is, is about a primal
28:48
wound, a primal disconnection, a primal
28:51
trauma that renders us alienated
28:54
and estranged from ourselves and from each other
28:56
and from God. And that's the age old
28:59
problem. Um, now out of that, when our,
29:02
when our lives are. When we're disconnected, when we're
29:05
estranged, when we're disordered, so to speak,
29:07
um, we will do things that harm others and harm
29:10
ourselves. That's what Christians have classically called
29:13
sin. But we've got all of this turned upside
29:16
down because sometimes we define people by,
29:19
uh, as sinners at the core. Right. I think that's
29:22
a real problem.
29:23
>> Loren: Yeah. I'm thinking about, again, I'm
29:26
thinking about ptsd, Post traumatic stress
29:29
syndrome. Right. As I understand trauma.
29:32
And again, that disconnectedness. And this is what's so interesting
29:35
about the story in Genesis 3, right. How they
29:38
are disconnected from God and how, at least as I understand it,
29:41
like two people can experience the exact
29:44
same event. But if one person has someone
29:47
with them or shortly thereafter, the process
29:49
with, they may not experience that event
29:52
as traumatic. Right. Whereas the other person, who's
29:55
alone, can often develop
29:57
that trauma.
29:59
>> Chuck: Yeah, yeah. This is where you know, and I'm sure you have
30:02
listeners, we're like, oh gosh, they're talking about trauma. Everyone's talking
30:05
about trauma nowadays. It's so overused, it's so misused.
30:08
And, uh, but what I'd want to say is,
30:11
yeah, it is. When people talk about how traumatic
30:14
it is to drop their phone in the toilet bowl or something.
30:17
But trauma at its core, if it's
30:20
true that it is about disconnection, as we were just talking
30:22
about, then we all live with a kind of
30:25
primal sense of disconnection. We all experience some
30:28
sense of being estranged from ourselves. G.K.
30:30
chesterton once said, every man has forgotten who he
30:33
is. That's estrangement. That's alienation.
30:36
And so there is that kind of, um,
30:39
resounding wound that, you know that.
30:42
That sort of leaps off the Pages from Genesis 3 on,
30:45
and you see the implications of it for
30:48
1,185 chapters of the Bible, until you get
30:51
to Revelation 21 and 22. And that
30:54
trauma that you're speaking of. Well,
30:56
um, there's a lot more that we can say about it.
30:59
But when two people experience, let's say
31:02
they go through a natural disaster, a tornado tears through a
31:05
small town, um, if a
31:08
person is, um, taken in by another
31:11
family, if they're helped, they're
31:13
fed, they're allowed to cry,
31:17
the stress that they're experiencing is far less apt
31:20
to turn into trauma than the person who goes it
31:23
alone. Which is to say that's the story of Genesis
31:26
3 as well. When you go it alone,
31:28
you're more apt to find yourself disconnected and
31:31
traumatized. And, um, that's what we need to be
31:34
paying attention to in our lives.
31:37
>> Loren: Yeah. So it brings me to a real practical question that's
31:40
coming to mind when I'm thinking about clergy,
31:43
church leaders, especially for clergy. And I
31:46
guess this is what made Covid so hard, right. Is that
31:49
we were going through this really
31:52
traumatic event. And broadly speaking, we're very
31:54
isolated. Like, is this why it's so important for
31:57
clergy to have some kind of support group or close
32:00
friendship?
32:01
>> Chuck: Uh, yes. Yeah. I was just on a call the other
32:04
morning, um, with a group. We're trying to maybe get some
32:07
money to do some work on secondary trauma for pastors.
32:11
Pastors, um, you know, who are constantly dealing with all
32:14
kinds of realities. Right. And you got the funerals, you got
32:17
the disappointed parishioners, and you got the people who are
32:19
like, we, um, need to sing these songs more. And we've got all the
32:22
stuff that pastors go through.
32:25
Um, and the language that we use is secondary
32:28
trauma, which is to say that, you know, as a result
32:30
of being in m. In the midst of all these
32:33
crises that go on every day, pastors start to
32:36
feel numb or angry or cynical or
32:39
lethargic or overwhelmed or
32:41
grandiose in the sense that I can do anything.
32:44
Um, and so that's why it's
32:47
so important for pastors, uh, to
32:50
have friends to be connected, because we're
32:53
more apt to live in the ongoing sort of
32:56
story of trauma before going it alone.
32:59
But if you have, you know, if you have a group of pastors you're meeting with
33:02
regularly, regularly, and you're like, man, this was
33:04
a doozy of A week. Like, I, I got, um,
33:07
broadsided by one of my elders. And then,
33:10
uh, you know, I got another call about, you know, another leader
33:13
in the church with a pornography addiction. And then I, you know,
33:16
I. Then we found out that, uh, we're not gonna have enough money to
33:19
meet budget this year.
33:20
>> Loren: Right.
33:20
>> Chuck: It's like, oh, uh, you. Yeah, you need to be processing
33:23
that.
33:24
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, we're kind of ping
33:27
ponging back and forth here just because, like, there's so much
33:30
good stuff you have. And it kind of sparks my mind
33:33
about something else. I want to go back to.
33:36
You write about biography, never excusing
33:39
harmful behavior. I want to see if I can find the quote, but it
33:41
certainly let, uh, me see if I can find the
33:44
quote, but it certainly
33:47
invites us to attend to the wound of which it
33:49
occurs. So again, this really gets into,
33:53
I think, a broader theological
33:55
question of whether
33:58
it be total depravity, what have you,
34:02
uh, talk about that.
34:05
Because maybe I'm being too cynical, but it does seem
34:08
like from my perspective there can be this tendency in our culture
34:11
to be like, oh, uh, we can just,
34:13
hey, he grew up in a rough home,
34:16
so, you know, that's why he's doing
34:19
what he is. Like, we can understand it, but also like,
34:21
hey, talk about, like, how to balance that
34:24
tension between. Hey, had a rough childhood. But also like,
34:27
I can't just act like a jerk 24 7.
34:30
Like, I'm thinking, I don't know if you watch the Good Place. Like, I love the Good Place.
34:33
Like Ellen, uh, Eleanor Shellstrop, Right?
34:36
>> Chuck: Yeah. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:39
Part of what you're getting at is, um, in the last section of the book, I
34:42
start talking about addiction and how we, we
34:45
home in on the behavior. And uh, what we want to
34:48
do is we want to change the behavior. We don't want them to drink, we don't want
34:51
them to look at pornography. We don't want them to overeat.
34:54
We don't, you know, whatever it is. And
34:57
um, I don't want to minimize the damage
35:00
that addictive behavior can do or
35:03
behavior that's sabotaging of others or
35:06
harming of others herself. Right. Um, I
35:09
do want to get curious about what it's about.
35:11
>> Loren: Yeah.
35:12
>> Chuck: And, you know, so why is he a jerk? Or why does he over drink?
35:14
Or why does, why does he,
35:17
um. Why does she look at pornography? Why does she overeat?
35:20
Whatever, you know, whatever the things are. Right.
35:23
Um, and, and uh,
35:25
invariably these are born out of a wound. Um, a
35:28
biography, a story. There's a story underneath. That's why I say there's
35:31
always biography beneath the behavior.
35:33
>> Loren: Yeah.
35:33
>> Chuck: And so what is that story? And how, how
35:36
did that, you know, becoming the jerk, becoming the bully,
35:39
narcissist, um, over drinking, you
35:41
know, how was that a source of coping? How is that a way
35:44
of alleviating anxiety, self
35:47
soothing? Um, how has that served
35:50
the person for years and years? And so, you know, I'm,
35:53
I'm always curious. I tell the story in there of.
35:56
And I've told the story in a variety of ways over the years of,
35:59
um, someone in the church who had had an
36:01
affair and was really being beat up by a lot of
36:04
other people in the church for the affair. And I went and sat down
36:07
with this person. I simply asked, what were you longing
36:10
for? Yeah, I wasn't trying to excuse the
36:13
behavior, but I was trying to get to the heart like, what, what
36:16
was, what was going on? And, and, and this person
36:19
said, um, my spouse hasn't looked at
36:22
me for years. Like, I haven't felt loved in years.
36:24
And, uh, I've been alone, I've been isolated.
36:27
Isolated. And then this other person, you know, I found
36:30
someone who saw me. And um,
36:33
you know, that's not an excuse.
36:34
>> Loren: Right.
36:34
>> Chuck: Again for, um, for the affair.
36:37
But it does help make sense of it and it does help us to
36:40
approach, you know, I do pastoral care and counseling. Right.
36:43
So, yeah, I want to approach people,
36:45
um, in a way that, uh, you know,
36:48
that, that, that moves toward them with empathy, with
36:51
compassion, that looks beneath the waterline at,
36:54
uh, you know, how they can heal most deeply.
36:57
>> Loren: Yeah. And I heard this in another context, and I'm not going to get
37:00
it correct, exactly. But
37:02
the scholar was making the point that in
37:05
tenuous conversations we can often come first with
37:08
like, conviction and then
37:11
curiosity.
37:12
>> Chuck: Yeah.
37:13
>> Loren: And he's kind of making the point, like, let's come first with,
37:16
I think, compassion, civility, and then
37:18
finally conviction. Like.
37:21
Yeah, I, you're obviously the expert
37:24
far more than I am, but I can imagine in a conversation like you're
37:27
referencing, like, coming at someone with like,
37:30
hey, affairs. Wrong. Like,
37:33
she knows that. Right. They. A person in that
37:35
context probably knows that. And it's not going to
37:38
solve the issue.
37:40
>> Chuck: No, no, it's not. And, um, you probably push the
37:43
person further away, you know, and if you, if you look at this from a
37:46
parts perspective, you know, if there's a part of that person who
37:49
is acting out in one way or another, the only
37:52
way to, um, win over that
37:55
part, which is to say the only Way to, like, actually do the work
37:58
of healing is to do it with empathy and
38:00
compassion. You know, uh, if that's a part
38:03
that was looking for soothing in
38:06
an affair, um, I want to get curious
38:09
about what it needed in that affair, what it
38:12
needed in that soothing, why it didn't feel,
38:15
uh. Why this part, for a long time, didn't feel
38:18
like it was worth it. What. Why it
38:21
was able to connect or whatever the case may be.
38:24
Right. There's. There's a whole trail to pursue
38:26
there. But of course, this is what I do for a living. Like,
38:29
I, uh, I love to pursue the. Under the
38:32
waterline kind of stu. Right. And, um,
38:35
you know, there's some pastor is going to say, well, no, you just need to discipline
38:38
that person.
38:38
>> Loren: Yeah.
38:39
>> Chuck: But I want to say, you know, I think there's probably more going
38:42
on there.
38:43
>> Loren: Well, I guess I'll just speak personally. Like,
38:46
I found even when I'm, like, curious about
38:49
a behavior and curious about,
38:52
like, how does it connect my part? I'm like, oh,
38:56
it's like, it helps me not do that
38:59
behavior.
39:00
>> Chuck: Yeah.
39:00
>> Loren: If I can figure out, at least to some degree, like,
39:03
what am I. Like to
39:06
use that third question. Like, what do I. What do I really long for? What am
39:09
I. What am I needing in this context?
39:12
Um, and that's a real mind drip to like.
39:16
To like, I think, accept that part that's
39:19
behaving poorly and then recognize that, you know, that part
39:22
is really trying to do good for you. And.
39:24
>> Chuck: Yeah.
39:24
>> Loren: You know, like.
39:25
>> Chuck: Yeah.
39:25
>> Loren: Oh, wait. This part can actually behave in help. Helpful
39:28
ways for me. Yeah.
39:30
>> Chuck: Yeah. Those. Our parts are often really. Just really
39:33
desperate. You know, where Dan, uh, Siegel says that
39:36
there. There are four fundamental needs every human has
39:39
when they're born to feel safe, seen,
39:42
soothed, and secure. And, you know,
39:45
that I. I think what happens is when we don't experience that, we're going
39:48
to be chasing after feelings of safety,
39:51
soothing security, et cetera, for, uh, the rest of our
39:54
lives. And so soothe me, soothe me, soothe me
39:56
affair, you know, job, um,
39:59
success, whatever the case may be.
40:01
>> Loren: Yeah. For a narcissist scene, Right?
40:04
>> Chuck: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The more the
40:07
merrier.
40:08
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, let's take a break, and we'll come
40:11
back with some closing questions.
40:16
>> Chuck: All m. Right.
40:16
>> Loren: We're back. Let me ask you one more question before I let you go,
40:19
because this is like, this is the line that I hated the
40:22
most. I suppose in a good way. You write
40:25
that the deepest work often happens when the lights
40:28
go out. I mean, yeah.
40:31
I'VE kind of felt that for a while and
40:34
I hate that. So maybe give me some
40:37
good news, I guess. Give our listeners some good news.
40:40
>> Chuck: Yeah, well, I mean, I think we want to be in control
40:43
oftentimes of the process. Right. I mean, I
40:45
think, um, I hope this comes off as
40:48
good news, but I mean I, I, um. This is a
40:51
real struggle of mine. I turned 54 this year and
40:54
I really thought that I would be over. I've
40:57
struggled with a lot of anxiety my whole life. Right. And
41:00
um, I thought. And panic attacks and I really thought by
41:02
40, I'd be done with it by 45, I'd be done with
41:05
it By 50. And um, you know, I'm,
41:08
I'm. It's tough sometimes because
41:12
um, the reality is we don't, we don't have as much
41:15
control sometimes over these things as we think we do. Right. And
41:18
I've done all the practices, I've done, you know, like, I've done the
41:20
therapy and the practices and stuff like that.
41:23
Um, but I felt at times very much in the dark, you know,
41:26
like, okay, God, I don't, I don't know where you are.
41:29
I don't know what else to do. And there is
41:32
something of a surrender that happens in that space. I
41:34
think, um. Well, maybe for some you
41:37
double down. I mean I've certainly had the tendency to want to double
41:40
down, but I think, right. Some sense of like,
41:43
okay, so this is, um, I think this is like, okay,
41:46
so Paul had a thorn. Um, I, I
41:49
guess this is something of a thorn, you know. And
41:51
um, I don't like it. Um, I think
41:54
others struggle with, with other different kinds of things. And I don't
41:57
talk about this a whole lot, but it's, it's something that
42:00
I'm, I'm learning to befriend at some level
42:02
as um. I certainly think my anxiety and
42:05
my panic has probably led to
42:08
um, a greater sense of dependence and limitation
42:11
and humility to some degree.
42:13
Um, and uh, wrestling
42:16
with God. And so yeah, it's,
42:19
I don't know that that's good news, but I do think
42:23
it is something that we learn over the years that you know,
42:25
uh, we have far less control, there's far more
42:28
mystery and we've got to live our lives a whole
42:31
lot more open handed than we ordinarily do.
42:34
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, great
42:36
conversation. Really appreciate your insights. Really want to recommend
42:39
the book again. Uh, the title is
42:43
Healing what's Within. Available in
42:45
October. So Share anything else you want to
42:48
share? Just about the book, how folks can connect with
42:51
you, all that stuff.
42:52
>> Chuck: Yeah, well, I'm on,
42:54
um, a number of social media
42:56
spaces. I'm just too old to do TikTok at
42:59
this point, I think. Um, but
43:02
at ChuckDeGroat, uh, D E G R O A t. And then
43:05
chuckdegroat.net is my website. And I teach out at
43:08
Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, if people want to find
43:11
me there.
43:12
>> Loren: All right. Well, again, really appreciate the conversation. Really recommend
43:15
the book. Thank you so much for your conversation. Always leave folks
43:18
with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.
43:21
>> Chuck: Thanks, Loren.
43:29
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
43:32
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
43:34
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43:37
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43:39
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