Latest / Dishing with Stephanie's Dish / Hank Shaw @huntgathercook is a James Beard Award-winning author of 5 cookbooks, a chef, a forager and a hunter.

Transcript

Hank Shaw @huntgathercook is a James Beard Award-winning author of 5 cookbooks, a chef, a forager and a hunter. · Dishing with Stephanie's Dish

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  SPEAKER_00: Hello everybody and welcome to Dishing with Stephanie's Dish,
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  the podcast where we talk to fun people in the food space and
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  sometimes they have
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  SPEAKER_00: cookbooks and today's author is an author.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's an author of great magnitude, Hank Shaw.
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  His new book is Borderlands,
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  Recipes and Stories from the Rio Grande to the Pacific.
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  SPEAKER_00: And Hank, you are such a prolific, beautiful writer.
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  SPEAKER_00: This book, I feel like, is just so you.
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  SPEAKER_00: Do you love it?
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  SPEAKER_01: It's been a long journey to make this book and I'm pretty proud of it.
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  And it's been probably the biggest project of my adult life in
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  terms of time and
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  SPEAKER_01: commitment,
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  SPEAKER_01: travel,
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  SPEAKER_01: really unlocking understanding of things that I thought I knew but didn't
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  SPEAKER_01: necessarily know until I got there.
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  And it's just been this crazy,
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  fantastic journey and a journey that you can eat.
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  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk a little bit about your history?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think many people know you as the hunter, forager, gatherer type.
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  SPEAKER_00: And Borderlands obviously has a lot of those elements to it.
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  But can you just walk readers that are listeners that might be
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  new to your journey
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  SPEAKER_00: kind of through how you got here?
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  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
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  Many,
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  many years ago when I was still fairly young,
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  I was a restaurant cook.
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  So I worked first as a dishwasher and then as a line cook and
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  then as a sous chef
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  SPEAKER_01: in a series of restaurants,
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  SPEAKER_01: mostly in Madison,
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  SPEAKER_01: Wisconsin.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I left that job to be a newspaper reporter.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I ended up being a newspaper reporter for 18 years.
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  And I cooked all throughout that and traveled and learned more
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  about food and
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  SPEAKER_01: Did fishing and hunting and foraging and such.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  SPEAKER_01: and then I left the news business in 2010 to do my website,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is hunter angler gardener cook.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I've been doing that full time since 2010.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  SPEAKER_01: so yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: my entire kind of current incarnation is wild foods,
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  SPEAKER_01: but borderlands is kind of an outgrowth of that for two reasons.
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  The first is I've basically written all of the fish and game
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  books you can possibly
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  SPEAKER_01: write already.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've got one for every kind of quarry you can imagine.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing was,
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  SPEAKER_01: oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  a lot of that travel for those other books was on the border on
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  both sides,
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  SPEAKER_01: on the American side and on the Mexican side.
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  And that kind of grew into this,
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  wow,
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  you know,
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  God,
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  the food is so great.
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  SPEAKER_01: And God, this area is just so neglected, I think, by most
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  SPEAKER_01: you know, the, the food or rot eye for lack of a better term.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because all of the air,
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  like everybody seems to love to hate Tex-Mex without really
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  fully knowing what
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  SPEAKER_01: Tex-Mex actually is.
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  SPEAKER_01: And people say that the Southwestern cooking is so very 1987 and,
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  SPEAKER_01: and you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: the people who know Mexico are like,
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: all the good foods in Oaxaca or Michoacan or Mexico city or Yucatan.
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  SPEAKER_01: And really that's not the case.
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  SPEAKER_01: And,
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  SPEAKER_01: As over and over and over again,
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  I was discovering these amazing just finds and a lot of them
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  had to do with wild
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  SPEAKER_01: foods,
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  SPEAKER_01: but not all of them.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so that Borderlands became my diary of that journey.
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  SPEAKER_00: And quite a diary it is.
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  What's interesting to me is I didn't actually ever know that
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  you were in the newspaper business.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that makes- I'm a Pioneer Press graduate.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you were?
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  SPEAKER_00: How did I not know this?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was a St.
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  SPEAKER_01: Paul Pioneer Press investigative reporter from 2002 to 2004.
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  And if you're of a certain age and you remember that there was
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  a big story about
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  some Republican operatives getting involved with a
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  telecommunications boondoggle.
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  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, that was probably, that was us.
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  SPEAKER_01: That was our story.
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  Well,
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  and it makes sense because the book is so like,
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  it's the storytelling that's so good.
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  SPEAKER_00: And,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  cookbooks are cookbooks with beautiful recipes and different
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  people's point of view
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  SPEAKER_00: on recipes.
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  But what I love about your book,
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  too,
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  is it really goes into ingredients a little more in depth.
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  It tells the story of the terroir of where the recipe is from
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  and why it's
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  SPEAKER_00: the way it is.
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  And it makes sense now to me that you're a journalist because
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  it's so beautifully written.
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  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate that.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: I tried in this particular book,
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  SPEAKER_01: there are essays in all of my books,
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  SPEAKER_01: but in this particular one,
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  SPEAKER_01: I really,
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  really wanted people from the rest of the country to get a
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  flavor of what it's like
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  SPEAKER_01: to,
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  SPEAKER_01: was really honest to God,
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  SPEAKER_01: like on the border.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  everybody has thoughts and opinions about immigration and about
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  the border and
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  SPEAKER_01: about blah,
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  SPEAKER_01: blah,
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  SPEAKER_01: blah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, wow,
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  SPEAKER_01: How much time have you actually spent on the border?
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  Do you actually know what it feels like,
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  what it smells like,
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  what it tastes like?
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  SPEAKER_01: Chances are you probably don't.
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  And I really wanted this book to shine a light on that in ways
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  that go well beyond food.
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  SPEAKER_00: When we talk about the borderlands,
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  can you talk about it without talking about immigration and the
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  close connection
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  SPEAKER_00: between the United States and Mexico?
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we share this border.
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  SPEAKER_00: People have this idea that it's like this gated, fenced situation.
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  SPEAKER_00: And really,
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  SPEAKER_00: there's tons of the border that's just,
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  SPEAKER_00: you'd only know it was a border if someone told you you were crossing it.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's very true.
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  SPEAKER_01: In fact, one of my favorite moments to that was in Southwest Texas.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's a beautiful national park called Big Bend.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the biggest national parks in the country.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's famous.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's amazing.
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  SPEAKER_01: But you're going to drive and hike and hike and drive and hike and drive.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a gigantic park.
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  SPEAKER_01: So one place that you can go to,
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  SPEAKER_01: and it's actually,
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  if you open up a copy of Borderlands and you see this huge
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  vista right at the
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  SPEAKER_01: beginning of the book,
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  SPEAKER_01: There's this huge vista, and it's on a cliff.
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  SPEAKER_01: That is exactly it.
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  SPEAKER_01: That is Big Bend National Park.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if you're looking right in the back end of that,
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  SPEAKER_01: back center a little to the left,
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  SPEAKER_01: you'll see a canyon in the background.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that canyon is St.
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  SPEAKER_01: Elena Canyon.
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  SPEAKER_01: And St.
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  SPEAKER_01: Elena Canyon is created by the Rio Grande.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you can go to that park and you can walk across the border,
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  SPEAKER_01: literally to Mexico,
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  SPEAKER_01: and not have the Rio Grande come up over your ankles.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there's Mexicans on their side,
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  SPEAKER_01: there's Americans on our side,
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  and everybody's crossing back and forth until their families
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  are there and having a
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  SPEAKER_01: fun time,
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  SPEAKER_01: blah,
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  SPEAKER_01: blah,
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  SPEAKER_01: blah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's one of these great moments where it shows you that,
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  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: that border is really just sort of a fiction.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes, in many ways, right, figuratively.
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  And also,
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  I don't know,
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  we seem to be in a global food economy,
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  whether we want to or not.
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  When you look at the individual ingredients that you're using
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  here in Borderlands,
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  SPEAKER_00: obviously,
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  there's very different things because of temperature in Mexico
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  than you might have
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  SPEAKER_00: here in the Midwest.
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  SPEAKER_00: But is it really different from like, say, Texas to Mexico?
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  uh in yes there there are definitely different so the food
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  you'll get in huevo leon
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  or coahuila or tomolipas which are the three mexican states
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  that border texas is
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  going to be different from what you would think about as texas
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  food however on the
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  borderlands that that change really is minimal and i talk about
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  in the book uh the
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  idea of fronterizos people who are neither fully mexican nor
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  fully american they're
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  SPEAKER_01: they're border people and
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  SPEAKER_01: they can slide between English and Spanish in mid-clause.
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  And it's really the pocho or Spanglish or whatever you want to
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  call it that you'll
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  hear there is very different from what you'll hear from a
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  bilingual person from,
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  SPEAKER_01: say,
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  SPEAKER_01: Mexico City,
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  where typically those people will speak in full sentences or
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  paragraphs in one
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  language and then maybe switch to another language in the next
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  sentence or
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  SPEAKER_01: paragraph.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, on the border, it's a mishmash.
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  SPEAKER_01: So...
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  SPEAKER_01: the structure,
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  SPEAKER_01: the words,
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  SPEAKER_01: the adjectives,
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  SPEAKER_01: like it's everything is like,
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  SPEAKER_01: my bitchy watch is not,
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  SPEAKER_01: no funciona.
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  And so it's like,
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  it's like this whole kind of amalgam of what's going on.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that kind of translates into the food where you've got some Texas,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: some very Texas,
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  SPEAKER_01: Texas things that don't,
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  SPEAKER_01: don't cross the border.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like yellow cheese doesn't really cross the border.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: The idea of,
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  SPEAKER_01: like Rotel queso.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's, it's like Velveeta cheese melted with Rotel.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's queso.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's the bad queso in North Texas.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like you'll get that in like Amarillo.
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  SPEAKER_01: But the real queso is South of Interstate 10.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that is a white Mexican cheese that it,
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  SPEAKER_01: where you get,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: roasted,
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  fire roasted green chilies folded into it and a little bit of
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  Mexican oregano and
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  SPEAKER_01: salt and a little bit of crema to thin it out.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's,
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  SPEAKER_01: It is to the Rotel Queso what a match is to the sun.
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  SPEAKER_01: That said,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to poop all over the Velveeta one because that,
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  SPEAKER_01: while I don't think it tastes great,
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  SPEAKER_01: what I realize is that particular version of Queso,
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  SPEAKER_01: which I personally don't like,
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  SPEAKER_01: is really heavy with cultural significance.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's a place for it.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's just not...
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  SPEAKER_01: that's not really as border food as you might think.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's a little bit more North Texas.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's an example of where things don't cross.
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  But a really great example of where things are damn near the
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  same is Arizona and Sonora.
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  So there's almost no difference between Arizona Mexican food
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  and Sonora Mexican
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  SPEAKER_01: food because they're one and the same.
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  SPEAKER_01: The burritos are pretty similar.
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  SPEAKER_01: The flour tortillas are similar.
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  SPEAKER_01: The carne asada is pretty similar.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so that's a case where
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  The borders really,
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  yes,
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  it's a border,
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  but I mean,
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  it's like there's no food border.
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  SPEAKER_01: The same thing with Southern California and Tijuana and Northern Baja.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's almost no functional difference between the two of them.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now,
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  New Mexico and Chihuahua has a difference and like north of
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  Interstate 10 in Texas
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  SPEAKER_01: and the border in Texas are quite different.
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  Um,
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  there's a recipe in here that I didn't even really know existed
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  called Parisa.
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you, we will order steak tartare or make tartare.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't realize that there was a,
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  SPEAKER_00: in many cultures,
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  you sort of see similar foods or similar food groups and
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  they're just treated
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  SPEAKER_00: differently with herbs or spices.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um, this looks delicious.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um,
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  SPEAKER_01: It really is.
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  It's the best way to describe it,
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  if you're not familiar,
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  because it's super regional in Texas.
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  SPEAKER_01: You can't even really get barista in Dallas or in El Paso.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's not a thing there.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's sort of a south-central Texas thing.
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  SPEAKER_01: But the best way I can describe it is,
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  SPEAKER_01: really accurately describe it,
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  SPEAKER_01: it is steak tartar meets agua chile.
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  SPEAKER_01: because most people will say it's steak tartare meets ceviche.
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  SPEAKER_01: And yes, you absolutely can get it like that.
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  But the acidity in the citrus will turn the raw beef gray,
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  which I think looks gross.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it tastes fine, but it just kind of looks like meh.
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  So my recipe and what I do is I mix the steak tartare with the
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  essentially pico de
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  SPEAKER_01: gallo is really what it's being mixed with and a little bit of cheese.
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  I'll mix it and serve it right away so that when you eat it,
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  the meat is still pink.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it looks really good.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then also in the book.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you're a hunter.
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  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, we established that.
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  SPEAKER_00: But in many of these recipes,
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  SPEAKER_00: you have substitutions of different animal proteins that can be used.
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  SPEAKER_00: So whether it's elk or bison or sheep or duck.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think that's cool.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think I started that process.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's done with icons.
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  So if you look at a recipe for,
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  oh,
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  there's a stew that's very popular there called puchero.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to that page.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, oh, that's a saro de puerco.
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  SPEAKER_01: So saro de puerco is always pork,
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  SPEAKER_01: but no babies will die if you use something else from that,
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  SPEAKER_01: but that is traditionally a pork dish.
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  SPEAKER_01: Puchero is traditionally beef or venison, but
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  Really,
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  you know,
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  you're going to be fine if you put damn near anything in it.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a big giant stew, a lot of vegetables, and it's fantastic.
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  SPEAKER_01: And to really make the book more versatile,
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  SPEAKER_01: because there's two things that I always do in my books.
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  Number one is I'm going to give you the recipe as faithfully as
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  I can to what it
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: actually is wherever it's from.
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  And then I'm going to give you all these substitutions so that
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  if you live in,
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  you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: Bismarck or Crookston or rural Iowa, you're going to be able to make it.
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  And that's important to me because it's more important to me
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  that you make some
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  SPEAKER_01: version of it than to be exactly proper and specific.
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  SPEAKER_01: I hate cookbooks where it's like,
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  SPEAKER_01: especially with cheese,
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  SPEAKER_01: where you'll see someone be like,
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  SPEAKER_01: it must be the cowgirl creamery.
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  SPEAKER_01: Point Ray is blue from 2012.
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  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, this recipe won't work.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, come on, guys.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is a stupid recipe.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's blue cheese.
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  SPEAKER_01: You'll be fine.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: I was surprised that you have a chimichanga in the book.
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  SPEAKER_00: Can we talk about chimichangas?
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  SPEAKER_00: Because people who grew up in the Midwest,
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  Chi-Chi's was like the first Mexican restaurant besides El
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  Burrito Mercado.
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  SPEAKER_00: And El Burrito Mercado was authentic,
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  SPEAKER_00: and Chi-Chi's was like the Americanized,
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  SPEAKER_00: what they thought Mexican food was.
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  SPEAKER_00: Which also, I will say, I have taste memories of Chi-Chi's.
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  SPEAKER_00: I say this not dogging on them, and they're actually coming back.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the chimichanga,
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  SPEAKER_00: is something that,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: if I actually go to the new restaurant,
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  SPEAKER_00: which I'm sure I will,
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  SPEAKER_00: I will order a chimichanga.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's like a taste memory for me.
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  SPEAKER_00: What is the, like, origination of chimichanga?
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  SPEAKER_00: It's shrouded in mystery.
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  So there's a couple different theories,
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  and then I'll tell you what I think.
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  SPEAKER_01: The general story is that a woman was making burritos in Arizona.
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  SPEAKER_01: and either dropped,
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  which I don't believe because that would create a splash that
• 15:14
  would send 350 degree
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: oil everywhere,
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: or placed a burrito in the deep fryer.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: The legend,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: which I don't believe this is true at all,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: is she drops the burrito in the deep fryer and,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: says something like,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: ah,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: chingo tu madre or whatever,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: like just like swears something bad.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: But then sort of does what you would do in a kind of a mom situation.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of saying the F word, you would say, oh, fudge.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so she goes,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: chimichanga,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: which is sort of vaguely reminiscent of some Mexican swear words.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so thus the dish was born.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's not true because there is a fantastic resource –
• 16:05
  actually i mean i found it in some of my older mexican
• 16:07
  cookbooks that i own but
• 16:09
  there's a fantastic research at the uh the university of texas
• 16:12
  at san antonio of
• 16:13
  mexican cookbooks and some of these mexican cookbooks are
• 16:17
  handwritten from the
• 16:19
  1800s and so they're all digitized and you can you can study
• 16:22
  them and so there's a
• 16:23
  thing in sonora remember i just got done saying that like
• 16:27
  there's almost no
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: difference between sonora and arizona uh
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's a thing from Sonora many,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: many,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: many,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: many years ago,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: early 1900s,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: where a chivvy changa
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: C-H-I-V-I-C-H-A-N-G-A.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Chimichanga.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the same thing.
• 16:45
  So I'm convinced that this is just a thing because if you have
• 16:49
  a burrito and you
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: fry things,
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: there's zero chance that at some point you're going to be like,
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder what's going to be good if I fry the burrito.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Answer it, yes.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, all the time.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: like you,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: came into the chimichanga world with a definite eyebrow raise,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: what is this?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: When it's done right,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: and if you see the picture in my book,
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: it is dressed with a whole bunch of things on the outside of the burrito.
• 17:18
  So it's crema,
• 17:19
  it's a pico de gallo,
• 17:20
  it's shredded lettuce or cabbage,
• 17:22
  limes.
• 17:24
  The thing about a properly served chimichanga is that you have
• 17:29
  to eat it as a whole
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: because the chimichanga itself is quite heavy.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's a fried burrito with rice and beans and meat inside it.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's a gut bomb.
• 17:40
  But when you eat it with all these light things around it that
• 17:42
  are bright and fresh
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: and acidic,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: it completely changes the eating experience,
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: and I was sold.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: I can imagine.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: The one you have in the book looks really good.
• 17:54
  I keep asking about specific recipes,
• 17:57
  but there were some that just jumped out at me like,
• 17:59
  wow.
• 18:00
  Another one that jumped out at me was from that same chapter
• 18:04
  about the acorn cookies.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've always been under the impression that acorns,
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe it's from just specific to the oaks,
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: but that they're poisonous.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't think about making acorn flour.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: So number one, no, no acorns are poisonous.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Zero.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Period.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: End of story.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's a myth.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: You were lied to.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's it helps me because my dog eats them.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, acorns have been a source of food for human beings forever.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, all the way.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how long ago, but way more than 10,000 years.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Way more.
• 18:38
  So what the myth comes from is most acorn varieties,
• 18:45
  so most,
• 18:45
  especially red oaks,
• 18:47
  are full of tannins and tannins are not poisonous tannins are
• 18:51
  not toxic tannins
• 18:53
  will make you constipated if you eat too many of them and i
• 18:55
  suppose it would be
• 18:56
  possible to poison yourself with tannins but i mean good luck
• 19:00
  yeah good luck eating
• 19:02
  enough of that astringent stuff to be able to get yourself
• 19:04
  poisoned but tannins are
• 19:06
  water soluble so for millennia the people who eat acorns and
• 19:11
  especially in in
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: northern california where you know acorn acorns were their main starch
• 19:17
  The idea of leaching the tannins out in a stream or whatever is
• 19:22
  as old as time.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so you make a meal.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's really a meal is probably a better way to put it.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: I call it flour, but there's no real gluten in it.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: In fact,
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: there's no gluten in it,
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: but there is some starch in it that will help the flour stick to itself.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that's true everywhere.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: In fact,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: it's a very good acorn year here in Minnesota this year,
• 19:43
  and I found some burr oaks in a place that I'm going to go back
• 19:47
  and harvest them to
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: make some more acorn flower this year.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll have to leach them here,
• 19:52
  but this is a very long walk up to this cookie recipe because
• 19:56
  in South Arizona and
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: in Sonora,
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: there's an oak called an emery oak.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: And the emery oak is in the white oak clan.
• 20:08
  And it is sweet in the sense that you can roast those acorns
• 20:12
  and eat them.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact,
• 20:14
  you can get roasted acorns as a snack on some of the
• 20:17
  reservations down there or
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: really wherever.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a thing like it's,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: They just roast the acorns.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like a chestnut.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just like a chestnut.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Very good.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly because it's the same kind of a texture as well.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so that particular oak is unique in North America.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: The cork oak in Europe is the other one.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: that doesn't have any tannins to it.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: So you can just sit there and eat them.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why they make flour out of them.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's an indigenous thing.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: You don't really see it too much among the Hispanic Sonorans.
• 20:51
  You see it a lot more with like Yaqui or Pima or Tono O'odham,
• 20:56
  those indigenous groups.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's so cool.
• 20:59
  I also subscribe to your Substack,
• 21:02
  which I would encourage people to subscribe.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: To the Bone.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, To the Bone, it's called.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you just had a post about...
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: herbs and how important herbs are in your cooking and in your yard.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that you have kind of a small St.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Paul yard because we've talked about it.
• 21:22
  What are you doing with your herbs now that we're at the end of
• 21:25
  the season?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have anything that's special that you do with them?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do you dry them?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do you mix them with salt?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: I do all of the above.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: I am a preservation fanatic.
• 21:36
  I could talk for hours just about various ways to preserve
• 21:38
  things for our Minnesota winters.
• 21:40
  maybe that's another another podcast for sure um but the short
• 21:44
  version is yes all
• 21:45
  of the things um i mostly will do things like make pesto with
• 21:50
  basil uh because i
• 21:52
  love pesto but i do dry some and there are tricks to drying
• 21:56
  herbs the trick is is
• 21:57
  low heat for a long time so the don't use your oven and try to
• 22:02
  get them dry within
• 22:05
  48 hours but also try to do it at less than 110 degrees so
• 22:09
  otherwise they turn
• 22:10
  brown do you use like a dehydrator then yes i use a dehydrator
• 22:16
  um and most herbs
• 22:18
  dry really well in fact many herbs are better dried because it
• 22:22
  concentrates their
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: flavor basil's iffy uh parsley's kind of terrible dried um
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Parsley is one of those ones where eat it fresh, make pesto.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose you could freeze it.
• 22:35
  I mostly will,
• 22:35
  I will gather big scabs of it because I grow a lot and I will
• 22:40
  freeze it.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And even though it's going to suffer in the freezer,
• 22:43
  it is one of the most vital things I use for making stocks and
• 22:46
  broths with the game
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: I bring home.
• 22:48
  So freezing,
• 22:50
  drying,
• 22:53
  you can,
• 22:54
  you know,
• 22:54
  I just mixed a whole bunch of lovage with salt.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you go 50-50 the herb and coarse salt, like ice cream salt almost.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then you buzz that into a food processor or a blender.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then that creates a much finer,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: kind of almost a wet salt that is an enormous amount of flavor.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if you freeze it, it'll stay bright green the whole winter.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I like to do that,
• 23:19
  but the other times I kind of like to see it and progress over
• 23:24
  the months.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of a beautiful thing.
• 23:29
  to see that herb salt kind of brown out and army green out as
• 23:34
  we get to like
• 23:35
  late February because it really is sort of also indicative of
• 23:39
  our harsh winters.
• 23:41
  And it feels a little bit more of the time and place than
• 23:45
  pulling something out of a freezer.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about that because you're a single man.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: You are a recipe writer and developer.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you're also cooking and testing recipes.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: You're preserving all these things.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean...
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: My freezer right now is kind of a hellscape.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: I just closed up my summer cabin and I came home with so much food.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: I have like canned and pickled and preserved.
• 24:13
  And I just literally feel overwhelmed by all of the food in my
• 24:17
  home right now.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized this is a real first world problem.
• 24:21
  So,
• 24:22
  you know,
• 24:22
  my daughter's kind of in her young twenties and sort of poor.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I've loaded her up with stuff.
• 24:28
  But do you just feel overwhelmed sometimes by all of the
• 24:32
  abundance of food?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the things that's been really remarkable about it,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: about sort of single life,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: is how less I need to hunt or fish.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I find myself,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: I still,
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: because,
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: so side note,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: background,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: backstory,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't buy meat or fish at all.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 24:55
  I occasionally will buy a little bit of bacon because I love
• 24:57
  bacon and I'll
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: occasionally buy pork fat to make sausages with game,
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: but that's it.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so if I'm eating red meat, it's going to be venison.
• 25:05
  If I'm eating white meat,
• 25:06
  it's probably going to be grouse or,
• 25:08
  or pheasants.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm eating fish, I caught it.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what I find is that I eat.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: They, I don't eat that much meat anymore.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I eat plenty,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: but I mean,
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: it's not like I,
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't gorge myself on giant steaks anymore and it's just me.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know, a limit of walleyes can last me a month.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: And before it was definitely not like that.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: I can feel the overwhelm,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: but what's,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: I have neighbors that I give things to.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: I have friends that I give things to.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like I,
• 25:41
  I had two deer tags last year and I shot the second deer
• 25:44
  because I had a whole
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: bunch of friends who didn't get a deer and needed medicine.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it was really cool to be able to give
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: I butchered it all and I gave them an old vacuum seal.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was like all ready to go.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that was really satisfying to be able to help people like that.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, I like, you know, have a dinner party here and there.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I want to come to a dinner party.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Not to invite myself, but please.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'll reciprocate.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have a cabin in the summer, so I'm sort of like between here and there.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: But once it sets in, I really like to entertain and have people over.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: I find that...
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really easy way to gather new people, too.
• 26:24
  Like,
• 26:24
  I like collecting people because I just think people are so
• 26:28
  amazing.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I love putting,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 26:30
  new people at the table that people don't know yet or making
• 26:34
  those connections.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm actually kind of good at it.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I can't wait to have you over this fall.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, likewise.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: We'll do a home and home.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I would love that very much.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Your book is available,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Borderlands on,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: I found it because obviously you sent me a copy,
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: but also it's on Amazon and you self-publish.
• 26:55
  So there's a lot of people that listen to this podcast that are
• 26:59
  cookbook writers
• 26:59
  themselves or people that maybe are trying to get published or
• 27:03
  find publishing.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Can you speak to that a little bit and why that's been your route?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: You've been doing this a long time.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is my fourth self-published book.
• 27:12
  And self-published is really kind of a misnomer in a way
• 27:15
  because the books that I
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: put out are of random house quality.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 27:21
  There's no way you're going to be able to tell this book is
• 27:25
  apart from a gigantic
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: publishing house because what I ended up doing.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: is creating a publishing company.
• 27:32
  So the books are published in big,
• 27:34
  big runs in at versa press and Illinois.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very happy to say that these books are entirely made in America.
• 27:42
  Um,
• 27:42
  and that's kind of important to me because most cookbooks are
• 27:45
  made in China and not a fan.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: So the books are printed in Illinois and they are stored and shipped,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: at a,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: at a rest of a warehouse in Michigan.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, um,
• 27:59
  The best ways to get the books are to either buy them from my
• 28:02
  website or buy them from Amazon.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: And those are probably your two best avenues for it.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: The thing about self-publishing,
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: if you want to do it at the level that I'm doing it,
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: which is to say make a book that,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: even a snooty random house person will be like,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: damn,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: that's a good book.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: You have to go big and it's not cheap.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I do, I don't ever do runs less than 5,000.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: And a typical run for me is between 10 and 15,000.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: And cause your unit costs go way, way down.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we can get in the weeds of it,
• 28:35
  but I have some advantages in the sense that my sister has
• 28:39
  designed books for
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: living for 30 some odd years.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: And her husband has edited books for 30 some odd years.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, so you got like family business going.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: And my ex, my ex does most of the photos.
• 28:52
  Like this is Borderlands is the first book where the majority
• 28:54
  of the photos are mine.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: They're nice.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: But even she photo edited this book.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have people with very good skills.
• 29:04
  And so what I would say is if you have a kitchen cabinet where
• 29:08
  you have people who
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: have those skills,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: and I have to kind of stress that,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: copy editing.
• 29:16
  Copy editing or proofreading or indexing a book are entirely
• 29:20
  different from copy
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: editing or proofreading books.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: something in business.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's just not the same skill.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I found that out.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have that ability to put together a dream team,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: then you can make a really,
• 29:35
  really beautiful book that will impress people and that you
• 29:39
  will actually love.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: The print-on-demand system is still not good enough for cookbooks.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's fantastic for like a memoir or something without a lot of pictures,
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: but it is not good for cookbooks still.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 29:53
  I'm just making notes here because people ask me questions
• 29:55
  about this all the time.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 29:59
  Well,
• 29:59
  I appreciate that you've done all this work and the book is
• 30:02
  beautiful.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I love talking to you about food.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: So hopefully we can call you again and just wrap it down.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about preservation.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: I, cause I've never met anyone that only was eating what they killed.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you could go up North.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: I bet you'd find more people who do, but.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I just, I find that to be fascinating.
• 30:26
  And also just the idea of preserving food and how you use what
• 30:29
  you preserve.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's a great topic to get into at a later date.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: The book is Borderlands.
• 30:35
  I'm talking with Hank Shaw,
• 30:36
  Recipes and Stories from the Rio Grande to the Pacific.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: You can find it at Amazon or at his website.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: I always say this one wrong.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Hunt, gather, cook.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: So the best way to get to my website is just go to huntgathercook.com.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you have lots of recipes there too.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: I want people to just explore.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's incredible them on the recipes that you have there.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:03
  if you think about protein as being interchangeable in a lot of
• 31:06
  these instances,
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: it's definitely a really well done website with tons of recipes.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks for your time today, Hank.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me on.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk soon.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Bye-bye.