Latest / Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour / The Psychology of control. Episode 5.Guilt As Control

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The Psychology of control. Episode 5.Guilt As Control · Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is Kim Lee from the Children's Consultancy.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: And welcome back to the series on the psychology of control.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is episode five, and I want to talk about guilt, obligation, and the fear of becoming the bad one.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's an odd kind of title, but as we progress, you'll see what is meant by it, and how control can be exercised in so many ways.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: And this applies to all relationships.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: It isn't just about relationships between adults, but it's also about relationships with children and members inside a family, where control is a mechanism that is used.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in this particular episode, I think what I want to try and focus on is how sometimes things are quite subtle, and sometimes control doesn't arrive through fear.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it arrives through guilt, and it's not overt necessarily.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's not dramatic, but it's slow and it's repeated and it's relational.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, the person on the receiving end might start to feel responsible for the other's feelings or reactions or their distress or anger or their loneliness or their well-being.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes what we see is that people who are repeatedly invested in drama, their own normally, will arouse a sense of responsibility in the other to make it better.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what tends to happen is that that kind of narrative restricts any other kind of communication or any other relational stance.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: It becomes a kind of ingrained pattern where the person who is on the receiving end becomes locked into a kind of role.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so the relationship becomes organized about rescuing, taking responsibility for, etc.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so over time, something begins to happen, and you find yourself no longer asking, what do I feel or think or want, but how will they react?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And from that moment, from that moment, that your emotional life stops being exclusively yours because it's organizing itself around emotional management.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: As I said, this episode is about guilt, but more specifically, the psychological use of guilt and obligation as mechanisms of control.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because some people aren't always aggressive in the way they do it.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: They just control through emotional consequence, through making the other person feel selfish, cruel, abandoning, ungrateful, disloyal, or morally wrong, or abandoning their own responsibility as well as the individual.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: And for having independent thoughts, boundaries, or needs of separateness.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And psychologically, this can become extraordinarily powerful because what we have to do is make a distinction between guilt that we might regard as healthy versus controlled guilt.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And healthy guilt is necessary because it helps us to recognise harm that we've done something wrong and hopefully precedes repairing what we've done.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it helps us to develop a sense of conscience and also helps us to remain sort of ethically connected to others.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And without that, people become possibly quite dangerous.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: But controlled guilt is different because it doesn't arise from genuine wrongdoing, it arises from threatening another person's emotional control.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, sorry, it arises from threatening another person's emotional control.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And this distinction matters a great deal.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: In guilt-based systems, certain things become psychologically difficult.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: So saying no, creating boundaries, disagreeing, separating, or having the audacity to prioritize your own needs.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because these ordinary acts begin producing disproportionate emotional consequences.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: So the other person may become wounded, devastated, accusing, emotionally collapsing or morally condemning.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Most often it's subtle, but not always.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: But eventually you begin avoiding autonomy altogether.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Not because you lack intelligence, but because independence now feels like it's psychologically dangerous.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: So in real life, this is how guilt-based control often sounds.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Something like after everything I've done for you, you've completely abandoned me.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose I just don't matter anymore.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or you know how difficult things are for me.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know how busy I am, or perhaps more powerfully, I would never treat you this way.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Notice something important.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: The focus shifts immediately away from the original issue and onto your moral identity or your behavior.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you're no longer discussing a boundary, a disagreement, or a need.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: You're now defending whether you are a good person at all.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: The fear of becoming the bad one is where guilt-based control becomes psychologically devastating because most emotionally healthy people do not want to harm others.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to appear cruel, selfish, or abandoning.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And controlling systems explore precisely this.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Not always consciously, but functionally.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: The individual becomes trapped not by force but by conscience.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And over time they begin abandoning themselves in order to try and preserve relational and moral safety.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Children raised in guilt-based systems often become highly emotional or responsible.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: And they will feel responsible for a parent's happiness, stability, family harmony, and even emotional regulation within the household.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And this creates something deeply problematic psychologically because the child's functioning in a way that isn't developmentally appropriate, but relationally, and their identity becomes organized around pleasing, soothing, adapting, solving and avoiding conflict and preventing emotional collapse in others.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like there's an invisible contract.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's because the rules aren't actually spoken openly.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And by rules, I'm not talking about healthy rules.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about the unspoken ones that get expressed through behavior.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: These are invisible contracts.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it can be things like you know, you can have your own views so long as they coincide with mine.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: You can be acknowledged and rewarded for what you do so long as it fits the contract.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Deviate from that and we have a problem.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually the other person just stops living freely altogether because freedom now carries emotional punishment.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Over time, people inside guilt-based systems often become anxious, indecisive, emotionally conflicted, feel excessively responsible and deeply disconnected from their own needs.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: They may apologize constantly, over-explain boundaries, feel selfish for resting, or feel cruel for saying no.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps most tragically, they may no longer recognize that these reactions are abnormal because guilt has become fused with attachment itself.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of interesting, this normalization, you don't question it.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Quite often, when people leave relationships that are of this type and have interwoven other aspects of control, the process of looking back and identifying things makes you think, what was I doing?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was putting up with these things, and at the time I didn't see it.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: At the time I endured it.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: I really was working incredibly hard at doing my best, but actually I was being manipulated.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: That I was being that that there were these controlling factors, and even though they weren't necessarily explicit, nonetheless they were there.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now there's something else here which has to do with the controller's fear, because underneath these systems lies something which is fear-based.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's fear of abandonment, of emotional irrelevance, loss of control, or psychological separateness itself.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: And yet ironically, that's exactly what these can be the outcomes as a consequence.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: When people genuin't separate fully and emotionally, what tends to happen is that they then, as I've said so many times, organize themselves around the other person's needs.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: But also for some individuals that separateness feels intolerable.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of interesting because it's like in a way we can't occupy we can't share this 100% space 50-50.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: You must always have 70, I must always have 30.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: If I begin to want more than 30, I'll be punished.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: If I voice the fact that I see this, I'll be criticized.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And people who control externalize.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they will always have a pattern that when you when you listen to the way they talk about other people, regardless of the relationship type, you will tend to see that the person who is actually quite controlling through their narrative and behavior will cite many examples through their lives where others have disappointed them, walked away from them, criticized them, or so it's almost as if when they've come into contact with people who no longer are prepared or who just don't want to enter into that kind of relationship type, that behavior is then translated into it was about them, it wasn't about me.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's a red flag.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Quite often people don't see that red flag until it's too late.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the beginning of separation occurs with a painful realization, and that is I am allowed to disappoint somebody without becoming abusive, cruel, or morally bad.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm allowed to disappoint somebody without becoming abusive, cruel, or morally bad.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that sentence is transformative because people emerging from guilt-based systems often confuse boundaries with betrayal and letting the other person down.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And once they begin separating those things, something changes internally because they begin recovering perspective, autonomy, emotional legitimacy, and self-trust.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now, healthy love doesn't require self-abandonment, which is what really controlling relationships are asking for.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Abandon yourself and adapt to me.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Healthy relationships absolutely involve care.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: They involve care, compromise, responsibility, and emotional consideration.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: But that should be reciprocal.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because if it's a one-way street, see previous podcast series, then it's time to find yourself another street.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Healthy love doesn't require guilt, emotional self-erasure, or psychological submission.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: You shouldn't have to abandon yourself in order to prove you care.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps one of the saddest consequences of these types of control-based relationships is that people often lose contact with their own internal reality, so they become focused on not upsetting others or disappointing them and not becoming the bad one.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: They're so focused on that that they stop asking themselves a very important question.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: What is happening to me in this relationship?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because guilt can look remarkably like love when somebody's been conditioned to believe that emotional suffering is a proof of loyalty.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: But real love doesn't require psychological imprisonment, and real care doesn't depend upon fear, obligation, and emotional surrender.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: The moment you can care about somebody without abandoning yourself to keep them emotionally stable is the moment that real freedom begins.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what I think is important here is not just how we look at these these relationships and our reactions and how we may have been conditioned, but how this creates this kind of template which Bowlby called the internal working model.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: If we are people who have learned in early childhood that the best way to survive is by anticipating the needs of others, responding and getting it right, abandoning ourselves and our own separateness, that will carry forward into adult life, which of course, then, as we'll talk more about in the next episode, of course, is something which then carries forward, but which also points towards what is the emotional environment that our children are growing up in.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Can we let our children be children?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Can we let them be separate?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Can we tolerate our own emotional states rather than behaving in ways that cause children to feel like they are responsible?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, this is this is a control, whether it's conscious or otherwise, it is controlling behavior.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Inducing guilt or causing another person to feel bad when they act upon their own needs or they they they don't they don't follow the narrative is is is damaging.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean controlling others is damaging.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's no two ways about it, whether it's conscious or unconscious.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm certainly I have an experience of someone who was so immersed in their own drama, but who simultaneously regarded me as the person they couldn't do without.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it created a sense of responsibility and a commitment to trying to trying to help, trying to but with a view to then this person will be able to manage.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: But in fact, that's not what happened at all.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: What happened was that the pattern continued.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And realizing this meant that there was no way I could be involved with this person anymore.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: And when I spoke about the kind of looking back and thinking, what was I doing?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've certainly done that.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it would be it would be wrong to say that this is something which was intentionally injurious, but I think what it alerted me to is that people who have a tendency towards empathy, people who, and I am including myself shamelessly, but then one would hope I have that in my work.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: But people who have this have a tendency who are perceptive and receptive and who actually feel the distress of others, not by not necessarily becoming overwhelmed by it.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: We are we are not just thinking people.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at the Myers-Briggs personality type indicator, you will see that there are 16 personality types.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can Google it if you want.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, personality type indicator created by Myers-Briggs and Myers and Briggs is very, very helpful because it what it does is it tells us something about the different internal functions we rely upon to be ourselves, and those those evolve in a variety of different ways.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: But my personality type is known as the INFJ, and you can Google that as well.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: We are only a represented representative in about 1% of the population.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: I sometimes say there are 16 personality types, I think I'm the 17th, for better or worse.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: But what we have is strong, we have strong empathic qualities, we have quite analytical minds.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: We tend to be quite introverted thinkers, and we rely our feeling function is very strong.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that we have an absence of ability to think, but these things together create the sort of people who have the sort of awareness of what's going on in the lives of others, we intuit things, and I mean that not in a kind of flaky way, and it doesn't mean that just because we feel something, what we feel, and the sense we make of it is accurate.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: However, it means that there are people who will experience us in that way, and they will I would it's wrong to say consciously, but they will certainly adapt to it and they will certainly use it.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: The thing is, we've got this other function, the J within the INFJ, which means that our capacity for judgment and analytical thinking is very high.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a point at which we say, hang on a second, this isn't right.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I I think what I'm what I'm saying essentially is that none of us are necessarily immune to this kind of experience.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: But also when we find ourselves in it, we have to ask questions.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: And not self-attacking questions, but questions like, you know, what is what is happening?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's something not right here.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: How come I don't have a voice?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: How come I am working so hard at uh trying to help the other the other person avoid feeling bad?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I suppose really it all comes under the same kind of overarching view and understanding of what control in relationship looks like, and sometimes it's subtle.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you think about the drama triangle, victim, rescuer, and persecutor, you can Google drama triangle as well.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: People who control in this way will very often behave as victims because life is happening to them despite their best efforts, and how it's unfair, and so on and so forth.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, victims attract rescuers, and rescuers want to make it better, and that's a toxic little relational lock to be stuck in because victims don't get better.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or the victim says, I've had enough of this, and you're a waste of space, so then they move to.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Being regarded as persecutors.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a fun game.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Worth looking into that, the drama triangle.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I've gone on longer than I anticipated.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: In the next episode, I am going to be looking at the controlled child.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: And this is when survival becomes personality.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you found this helpful.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you found it interesting.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I will be back shortly.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.