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The Art of Building Iconic Brands with Jon DiNapoli of JMD · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Skin Anarchy.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is a very special episode because we're going to be diving deep into the world of creative and design and everything that makes a brand come alive.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: And with us today is one of the most prominent experts in this field.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think having his insight today is going to be so helpful for all of you out there that are on your own entrepreneurial journey, especially in the beauty industry or the luxury industry.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: So without further ado, please welcome John DeNapuli, who is the founder of JMD and has worked on countless phenomenal brands with phenomenal clients.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to welcome you, John.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, thank you so much.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for having me.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm honored to be here.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to talk to you.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, the honor is truly mine.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I am very excited to learn from you.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I before we dive into all the nitty-gritty, because you've worked with so many amazing brands, and I can't wait to learn.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: But what got you into the creative side of branding and all of the wonderful things?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what really sparked your interest?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a it's an interesting path I've had because it's not one that I really created for myself.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes things happen to you.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I've always been into design and architecture and photography.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: I actually started as an architecture major and then I quickly pivoted because there was a lot of math and science and I wasn't loving it.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I went into graphic design and photography, which I really was super inspired by.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I loved creating imagery and then this idea of graphic design and packaging.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I went to school in Northeastern University in Boston and I had a co-op program there, which was great because I would go to school for six months and then I'd work in a real agency for six months.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: So when I graduated, I had almost two full years of experience, which was awesome.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I graduated college, came back home.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, my mom and were like, okay, you need a job now, what are you gonna do?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: So my mom at the time literally took the newspaper, we're going back 27 years, the printed newspaper, and she circled this ad and it was for Estee Lauder.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, what am I gonna do for Estee Lauder?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like design makeup because that's not a career.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Lo and behold, I answered that ad.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: And the woman on the other end who answered it turned out to be a very important person within the beauty industry.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: She took me under her wing.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Her name is Catherine Walsh and just taught me everything I know.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I worked with her for about 15 plus years before I started my agency.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's this one little push from mom that, you know, kind of catapulted this career in a direction that I'm I'm still pushing in.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, that's amazing though.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's really, you know, what's interesting about what you said is that you took that leap of faith.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think right now we live in such an interesting world where I mean I'm a millennial myself, so I I see a lot of Gen Z get very confused about like what career paths they should go down, you know, especially when it comes to the more creative side of, you know, really anything.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it's interesting what you said because that leap of faith sometimes is what leads us to our destiny, you know.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really cool.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was great.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: So so I worked at Estee Lauder um for a bit.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: I worked on Donna Karen Cosmetics.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that was cashmere the original cashmere mist.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if you remember the DKY, it's the first fragrance they did.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: We called them the skyscraper bottles.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: They were tall, thin, long bottles.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Stand up, did not work in store, nightmare the merchandise.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: But we've learned a lot since then.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: But the bottles are super cool.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, my first job, I got to work on this iconic brand with Donna herself.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: She was still involved.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And Catherine again, like brought me under her wing.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, Come on, we're going to meet Donna.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Donna Karen, I'm going to meet Donna Karen.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it was awesome.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, that's actually one of my first questions, honestly, for you is this idea of like, because I hear a lot about like branding and creative strategy, you know, and especially when brands hit that milestone of like, okay, now we have a little bit of money and we can elevate our look, our feel, our appeal to the consumer.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess just as a normal consumer myself, the question becomes where is that starting point for finding that creative direction?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, where do you start when you're like just kind of approached for the first time, trying to find that creative energy and channel it?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Every project is really different.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think my process is the same, but it depends on the project and the person.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm fortunate enough to work with amazing talent, celebrity artists, right?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And they generally have a very strong point of view of where they want to go.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly fashion designers, you know, sitting across from VR Wang and Donna Karen and Callan Klein and Mark Jacobs, they have very, very clear direction.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: So when it's brands like that that have a face and a vision behind it, the first thing I do is just ask a ton of questions.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: My job is to extract whatever I can so that I could then take it back to the studio, put it through my brain, my funnels, and then come back to them with many different interpretations of what it is they're asking for.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that leads to showing them something they never thought about.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it really is different, but the one constant is information gathering from the beginning.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like before I start designing, before I start anything, I ask all the questions.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I have, you know, a running list of questions that I always ask kind of as the standard.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's been really successful because anyone can put a brand out on the market, but it's not going to work unless it's authentic to that brand itself.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so if we take a Marc Jacobs, it doesn't look, sound, feel like Marc Jacobs doesn't work.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't need to feel like John D'Annapoli, needs to feel like Marc Jacobs.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I I feel like that's the that's the real piece, right?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Where I get very interested because finding that voice or finding that look or that appeal, I mean, I know a lot of people know like why they created, like, I've talked to so many founders on this podcast where they're like, well, I knew there was a place, there was a white space, you know, in the industry.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: I knew I wanted to fill that space.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: But then like the question becomes like, okay, well, how are you going to get that consumer to see that same vision that you saw when you created the formula for something, you know?
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's very interesting what you said about information gathering.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: The white space is really interesting because when I think that that is, I don't think I know that is why I started my agency because I did see a white space.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was internal as a creative director, VP of Creative and Creative Director at Cody, and I had about 30 people reporting to me at the highest point there.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I oversaw all creative for all of Cody.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I had a seat at the table in the sales meetings, in the PR meetings, in the PL financial meetings.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I was in charge of creative, but I was exposed to all of those different facets of how you build these billion-dollar brands, these massive brands.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: So what I saw that there were many agencies that were amazing and they do great creative, but they didn't have that back-end knowledge of what's actually going to sell or how do you actually get this produced.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I started JMD because I had the creative chops, or not think I do, but I also had all that business experience, you know, 15 years of that business experience.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the white space that I that I identified of why I started JMD.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, honestly, I think it is a kind of a I haven't gone through the journey myself at all, but I can't imagine how confusing it would be, right?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: For somebody who's just trying to navigate this space and figure out, like, I need my brand to land, you know, I need this to be something meaningful.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: I know recently in the recent years, we've seen some really creative concepts come out from the packaging side, you know, especially like I talk a lot to a lot of skincare brands, for example.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times that packaging either hits or it gets lost in this whole conversation.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, some of the things like critiques I've heard is like sustainability, for example.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times consumers will be like, well, why did you spend so much on this design when you should have spent so much money on sustainability?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts on that?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like that balance between what the culture is demanding right now and what we want to put out creatively.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sustainability is huge, obviously, for many very important reasons, but it's very prominent at JMD and in the beauty industry at large.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it used to be a you, you know, you stand out if you're sustainable or if you have these clean ethos.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's the price of doing business.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: If you're not, you're not going to win.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: You fail.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we look at every project with, okay, if we want to work with plastic, plastic's not the best for the environment, but there's 10 different plastics now that are good for the environment.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just about how you source them and how you manufacture them.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we work on a blank with a brand called Clean Reserve, which is in Sephora.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a really good example.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Do you?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's one of our one of our brands.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: We've been there creative agency for gosh, nine, nine years now.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: But when we're designed reserve, is all, I mean, the name is clean.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's no brand that is more sustainable than clean.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: We sourced wooden caps.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: We sourced plastics that could make sense.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: We continue to evolve, right?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the that brand launched many years ago.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Last year, we decided let's get rid of plastic altogether on a cap.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: We took away the inner that's normally in there, and it's just a fully wooden cap, right?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: What's just a friction fit.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: So even though things are on the market at a certain time, we're constantly revisiting, looking back, and okay, how can we make it acceptable for today's consumer and what people accept?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: And people really just expect it.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: If it's not there, they're not going to buy it.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's that's interesting you say that because I know, like, yeah, the plastic conversation is huge.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then also like I hear a lot about things like, you know, well, it needs to be a certain size.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I feel like right now consumers are all about like how much value can we get, you know, out of a brand.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I've seen some conversations on social media, for example, some brands, especially in skincare, they're like, well, we want to give you that, you know, instead of 30 mils, we want to give you the 50 mils.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: But then we're gonna have to adjust our packaging, we have to adjust everything around us, you know, this decision.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, how does that fit into the whole like because I mean I'm guessing you build a whole vision out, right, for the brand.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then so when you have to adjust that vision, how does that work for you on the creative side?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you have to kind of go back to the drawing board altogether?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Or I mean, no, no, we don't really go back to the drawing board because when we set up a brand, when we started initially, I always think about what's the growth potential and how can this brand expand?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: We could put out one fragrance bottle, one launch, big name behind it.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna sell like gangbusters, but what's gonna keep them coming back, right?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: What's the next one?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: So Sabrina Carpenter is a really good example, one of the best projects I've worked on lately.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: I got to partner directly with Sabrina, you know, I've gone to her apartment, we're talking about stuff, we're brainstorming, we're looking at pantone chips, I'm sketching.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was really out of this world experience.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she's so creative and so sweet and just had like such a clear vision.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we launched Sweet Tooth, which was the pink French inspired um chocolate bar bottle.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: But now we have five others that came afterwards.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: So when I was designing it and talking to her, I was like, okay, we can do the first one in pink, but then we could do cherry, we can do lemon, and we can do espresso, we can do whatever.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: So when she launched her her album and the song Mi Espresso, it quickly did an espresso fragrance, right?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: So the brain had legs to expand and expand with what makes sense to her as the talent and artist.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: I loved that, by the way.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: That whole that design is so cool.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: When I first saw that, I was like, this is brilliant.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, everybody loves chocolate.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody loves chocolate.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: It was one of those like duh moments, you know, because we were talking about cupcakes and pies and all these different things because she has an actual sweet tooth.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is where the whole concept came from.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she came to me with saying she loves sweets, and she's like, I think I want my fragrance to be something around that.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we were talking about all these different things, and I was like, let's do a chocolate bar.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's the you know what's interesting about that exact example is like, I mean, I hear you when you say people like you know, she loves sweets, but like I've seen people do like cupcake bottles for fragrance.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, that's a lot, you know, it's a it's a it's beautiful, but it's a lot.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: So where is that balance?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I'm just curious.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: I and I don't know if you can put this in words or not, but where is that balance between like you know, yeah, I'm sure you're thinking and I think Sabrina's a good one to continue talking about this specific topic because while it's a chocolate bar, it's also a piece of art.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to think about packaging as art, right?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's something you want to keep out, whether it's on your desk or it's on your you know, your vanity or on social media, right?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's where everything everything is clearly.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you interpret something that's real, that's an everyday item, into something that's cool and kind of aspirational?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like what Jeff Koons did with the balloons, you know, the balloon dogs.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Took something so trivial and juvenile that's at every kid's birthday party and made it into these super iconic massive art installations.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, on a smaller scale, that's what I think about.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same kind of thing with Billie Eilish on the original Eilish bottle.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: That is a piece of art in itself.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I still look at it and I get goosebumps.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's stunning.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's stunning.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I that's see, that's why I find your work to be so like just next level, because it's like the appeal is something that it's like inherent in a consumer.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, you look at something, you either love it or you don't.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's that thing.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where I see a lot of brands that are like, okay, we nailed it, but it's like you kind of have to explain it to the consumer sometimes.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like, well, this is what we were going for.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like in your mind, where is that line between no, when a consumer sees this, they're gonna, they're just gonna get it.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're gonna they're immediately gonna get it versus no, we're gonna have to explain this a little bit.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is funny you asked that because I said to my team recently, and I say this all the time, let's pretend there's no one even sees the bottle.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: All they're seeing is the box and it's on the shelf.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Is that gonna tell the story?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Are they gonna know what we're trying to say?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if not, we're not doing our job right.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: So all those different elements and all the different touch points stripped down to its bare minimum, you have a fragrance bottle inside of a box.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: If that is the only thing you see on the shelf, is that gonna sell the product?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if it doesn't, we're not doing our job, right?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Then it just sits there.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's constantly finding that balance of commerciality versus you know, art and intuition and innovation.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's I mean, it's really, really intriguing.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I just find it to be fascinating because I mean, you brought up architecture in the beginning, and I know a lot of people go to school for this.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they go and they they get these extensive like educations, but it's like you can't teach it, right?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, there's a limit to what you can teach when it comes to this, right?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, with architecture, it's a big part of my life, it's just not my profession.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: So while I, you know, always from day I I remember making the where you want to be in 10 years or 15 years when you're a teenager and that you know the book, I still have it.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was an architect, I was married to Christy Brinkley, I had three kids.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm married to a man and I have one kid, and I did, you know, so obviously things change, but um, yeah, it was always like architect was my thing, but now it's really a hobby.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I love interior design, I love architecture, I'm inspired by it constantly.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a constant redesigner of my own home.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: My husband wants to kill me because we just finished, and I'm like, oh well, I have another idea.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's all kind of intertwined, it's all interweaved.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I mean, I and that makes that makes more sense to me actually, because I mean the world of like just creativity is it's it's just a world you have to live in, I guess.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can't there's no formula for it.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I feel like that's what everybody wants.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's what everybody wants is that formula of like what's gonna make me become the next viral brand, you know?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I would love for you to speak on that a little bit for like all the entrepreneurs out there, like you know, yeah, it's a hard that's a hard, it's a hard question to answer and it's a hard thing to achieve.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think you have to always just go back to the core of things and always challenge yourself, right?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: With because I I go with my gut a lot.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: I have a very strong intuition in my gut.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's not always right, but it it leads me, you know, many of the times.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: But you have to kind of be born with that, I think.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can't you can only learn so much.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like you said, in school, you can only be taught so much.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: The rest is really trial and error, you know, a lot.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: When I was 21 doing stuff, I didn't know half of what I know now.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's obvious, right?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: It goes with time.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's just always going back, always revisiting, always pushing, pushing yourself to find what is that hook?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's a term we use a lot, the hook, right?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: You need something because the the amount of brands that are put out on a weekly to daily basis now.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: I this is all I do, and I can't even keep up.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: How do you how do you rise above all the noise?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's really interesting to watch because you can see very quickly the brands that come above the noise and the ones that get lost in it.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: And there's brands that come out of nowhere, like voicemails is a good example.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Came out of nowhere, weird name, but people were talking about it.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the coolest brands out there right now.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, we didn't work on it, but I'm I'm an admirer of it.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's really well done.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a brand that just came and just froze above the noise.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, it's interesting because what you said is very relevant, especially I think right now in skincare and fragrance.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm seeing a lot of like, I mean, it's literally every day, every day a new brand, you know, or a new concept or something.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's good to try to get above that, but also more importantly, like what do you think brand should keep in mind or people, entrepreneurs should keep in mind when it comes to, okay, I just want to start this, but where is my road really gonna go?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like setting expectations.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is that a conversation you guys have at JMD with your clients?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like setting expectations of like what where do you think this is gonna go in like five, 10 years?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I feel like that's a missing link sometimes for a lot of people, you know, that say, I'm gonna go on this journey of starting a brand.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's it's true.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a good point.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we ask, it's it goes back to asking those questions.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we now have we have a marketing team at JMD now, as of about it two years ago.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so really bringing in, you know, more of that right side, left side brain.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, Leslie, who's my VPA of marketing, is kind of my counterpart in all these conversations.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we go in and we ask those questions.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: And Leslie is amazing because she comes from the brand side.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: I worked with her at Cody and I took her films at many other places, and she decided to come join our side, which is amazing because it's the same kind of dichotomy that I had, where I had the corporate and the internal experience, and then I moved to the external agency.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: So she really can push hard and and drive those questions.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what's the five-year roadmap?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: What's the strategy?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: What are your what's your marketing budgets?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: What are you spending?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: How is this going out there?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: All those questions for me are super important to know again before we start designing, because I I say this all the time, and I think I even said it already.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone, not anyone, but a lot of people can design beautiful things.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean it's going to be a product that people want to buy or will buy.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really big difference.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: I've learned when I started out, it was all about my personal feeling.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: How does Jonathan really feel about something, right?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's normal.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're a designer, you see something, you react.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Over the years, I've learned to curate my feedback and my input based on other facts.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Everything I designed does not have a place in my home, but it has a place in that brand.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Is there like I would love to know?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, you've worked on so many different projects that are just iconic.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, that it's like, has there ever been a project or a time in your career where you were like, I've kind of hit a brick wall, you know, with my like you know how uh writers get writer's block?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, were there moments like that where you were just like, I don't know, I don't know where to go with this?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: People might not like to hear this, but no, I haven't.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't only because it's constantly changing and it's constantly new.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there's been projects where we hit walls for sure, and we're like, okay, we feel like we need a fresh take or I'm too close to it.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get some, you know, outside input or a fresh point of view.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: But big picture, I think the way my career has gone and the way that I've kind of orchestrated my career is that if I'm feeling like it's stale or it's old or I'm done, let's move on to something else and let's keep it fresh.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't like to stay in situations that don't make me happy or don't inspire me.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was at Cody for 15 years, I was inspired.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: I loved it.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: I had an amazing team, I had great leadership and mentorship.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was working with the best people in the world.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then I didn't, and then it wasn't that anymore.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I that's when I decided to start JMD.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, there's always roadblocks, there's always hurdles, but I've been very fortunate in my career path so far, right?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's not over yet, still working.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: That I haven't had that like true, gosh, I just can't figure this out or I just can't get it.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: I also have an amazing team.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is not all just me by any means, but I have, you know, super talented people working with me and collaborating with me on all things.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's interesting you say that because I was I was gonna ask you one of my questions was like, what is that creative process for you?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you're not really like actively in the room on the drawing board, you know, working on a brand.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: How do you recharge yourself, you know, creatively?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you have things you would really, really love to do and kind of go clean slate for your own outside of work?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: What did you feel?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, like you know, just kind of resetting your palette kind of thing.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's where the architecture comes in and the interior design and all that.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: I love, you know, my husband and I are very, very much into that.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: He worked at an architect for 20 years.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Now he works at JMD as a stylist and a creative director.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's all our lives are very intertwined, obviously.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we love flipping houses and buying, you know, buying properties and rehabbing them.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And we're doing one right now.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: And people are like, Why are you doing that?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: You're so busy.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I said, This is actually fun for me.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's work, but it's fun.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, it's like having two full-time jobs, but I love it.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: It really gets me going.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it keeps my juices flowing because I've been doing what I do for so long for 27, 27 years.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I still need other things creatively to keep me going.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one of them.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's why I asked you because it's like, you know, that's I've noticed like with people who are incredibly like like high performers, you know, and that you your job and your life is so intertwined sometimes, right?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I asked you that because no one really talks about that, you know, in terms of like there is not really an off button to that, you know.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, and it's good and bad, it's a double-edged sword.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my personal life and my professional life are one and the same, right?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And especially, you know, founding an agency and running that.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Those years in the beginning, they're a blur, right?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because it was just all the same.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was just working nonstop.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: And still to this day, you know, I my company was acquired two years ago.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still there running it.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the president.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a little it's a shift, right?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I can let go of some of the control of like the back end stuff, but I'm still I was up at 5 30 today because I had a bunch of ideas and I got up and I just had to get them out.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't happen all the time, but it it does.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't I don't clock in and clock out and think, oh, well, it's the weekend, so I'm not working.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's always going.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I wish I could turn it off, honestly.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably good that you can't, though.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like that's like, I don't know.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that's that's a gift, you know.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you people call it different things, you know, like you're you're blessed or you're gifted or you're driven.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, but it's it's there for a reason.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it's there for a reason, and I welcome it and I'm very happy to have it.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell you having a four-year-old child gives me pause.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have nearly the amount of time you know that I used to have, right?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that absorbs a lot of brain space and a lot of energy and a lot of time, of course.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean it's interesting because I, you know, I I want to ask you about honestly the future of some of these industries because I know fragrance is a big one.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like with packaging and with design and creative side, fragrance has really kind of turned a corner in the last like five years, you know, a lot of consumers have noticed.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: What is your opinion about that?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I feel like so much got focused on packaging, you know, in the last like two years.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was seeing a lot of like Middle Eastern brands, for example.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I use them as an example because I see them with very elaborate packaging designs.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's the whole consumer experience.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you think that fits into the whole, like the whole bit about a brand, you know, where it's it's the whole experience that we want?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what are you?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's very, very, very important, obviously.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's what I it's what I do.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: But if there is a reason of why it's so important, I think the big shift that's happened is digital retail and social media versus going into a Nestore for fragrance specifically.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: People are buying fragrances now without knowing what they smell like.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: You might read about it, right?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: But most people are buying, whether it's TikTok shops or whatever, Amazon, you're buying a fragrance because of either who's putting it out there, what their messaging is, and very importantly what the bottle looks like.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's your first point of entry, right?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: So first thing you're gonna see online.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: So packaging was always important, and but I think it's just been exemplified, you know, by a thousand since digital, the digital world has taken over.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that's gonna change.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: What I am seeing is there is less stress on, I don't want to say maximalism because minimalism is kind of over, maximalism is coming back, but I think it's more like decoration for the sake of decoration is something that people don't really react to, like hanging a charm on a bottle or adding a big bow on it.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there's some brands that it works really well and it's huge success, but those are the kind of things that I start stripping away and thinking about okay, let's not put stuff on here just to put on here.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: What does it do?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Does it have a reason or purpose, or does it give you a feeling?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: There has to be a reason.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think all of that kind of combined with our approach to packaging is that it is an object within itself, right?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that it wants to feel good in your hand.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Travel is a big thing now.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: People are like, well, how do I travel with this beautiful fragrance bottle?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes the answer there is you don't.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: But we have a 10 a mil roller brawl with the same scent that you can buy for for travel.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Don't throw your full-size chocolate bar in your bag, take the little mini one.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, that's a that's a really good point that you brought up because travel is.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I remember when you could not find anything travel size, like you couldn't find any of your favorite fragrances, like anything, like beauty, any beauty item.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's like literally that's the niche.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is a whole brand category at this point.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: I have um, I'm a partner in a in a cosmetic brand called Carmen D beauty, and then JP obviously does the creative.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we're we're kind of relaunching, we're relaunching the line just here, and minis is like at the top of the list.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: So she's known for her five-minute face system.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you've heard of if you know Carmine D.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: She was on the show What Not to Wear back in the day.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the five-minute face is like I were stable, it's our icon.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we were just in a brainstorm the other day, and she's like, We gotta do minis.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: I want minis.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, God, thank God.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, let's do a mini kit, right?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: People want to throw that five-minute face in their bag and go.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Heck yeah.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're amazing.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Minis are amazing.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no, I mean, that's that's really interesting.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, what is the I mean, you're working with less product, right?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, does that give you actually like more creative freedom to like play around with like the look and the feel of the packaging, or do you think it's harder um when you're designing something of that size?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, does that matter?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's harder, it's definitely harder because there's a lot more limitations, specifically on the cons, cost of goods, because they sell them for very, very little when they try to, right?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: To your entry point.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore, the packaging budgets are much lower.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of times they have to be stock components that you know we treat to look like the full size.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Or if we can tool something like Sabrina's, it's called they're called bite-size, and it's just two little chocolate squares stacked versus the full, you know, the full piece.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: That was all custom, but that was like we have to do it.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: You can't do anything else here, right?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really about, you know, the challenges are set by the brand itself, the beauty brand, but I think it's just a cost challenge.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's oh, you know, and and I've noticed this, and I I I by no means am no expert in this, but you know, I'm just curious because I've heard a lot of founders say in the last like, I don't know, decade, the pricing for packaging, the pricing for the look has gone, I mean, astronomically higher than what it used to be.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many people I've interviewed that said, I founded my brand in COVID, the time of COVID.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: And at that time it was possible.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they had like$5,000 in their savings, they were able to get the brand out.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know what I mean?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of thing.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts on that?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love for you to share your insight on that in terms of like managing that cost ratio, you know, for like formula versus the style and the creative side.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, any advice you can offer there?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's hard.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's just knowledge is key.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Always getting the information up front.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing that, you know, drives me more crazy than getting a brief without a real budget behind it.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: So if we, let's just say Tommy Helfigger is a new, a new brand that just came out, that was not a new brand, but a new fragrance brand that came out that we designed and just came out last week.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's an amazing, iconic brand, been around, heritage brand, been around forever.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: They're reinventing their fragrance and kind of trying to put it back in the top tier, right?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Where the brand is living.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we designed this beautiful bottle very closely with the whole team at Tommy.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: They're designed team marketing.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Tommy himself approves things.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: But the first question we asked is what's our price point?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: How much, how much do I have for packaging?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: How much do I have for the bottle?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: How much do I have for the cart?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: And with our years of experience, I then know, you know, I don't know down to the penny because it obviously has to be costed out and there's many factors, but I know the ballpark and the world that I need to be playing in.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: So if you don't have that, you can design 10 different bottles or packages that look great and maybe are on brand, but if they're three times over the budget, what's the point?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's not going to be realistic.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: So again, it's this information gathering in the beginning, asking the right questions and really, really understanding that.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And managing the costs, you know, everyone's looking for ways to get things done cheaper, get things done faster.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of changing.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was China, now it's not China, it's the US, and it's not the US, it's you know, France, and it's not France.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like everything in life.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: We're just kind of chasing it as it as it moves as well.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: I am seeing more US production though, which is very nice and encouraging.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I love that.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the company that acquired JMD is actually a manufacturing company.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: They do more mostly printing and like large format stuff, but they have 200 facilities across the United States for manufacturing.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that was really, really exciting for me, right?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because we could actually design stuff.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Now we can produce it and it's make here at home.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's huge.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's huge.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I always heard about that's interesting what you say, because I always heard about like, yeah, the all everything comes from China or it comes from overseas, or you know, Italy was a big, big one.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, everyone's like, oh, this is made it made in Italy.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's also a question, right?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because people like kind of use that for marketing.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, oh, made in France or made in Italy, and especially in fragrance.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts on that?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, do you think that we should be doing that at this point?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, because I know we did for social luxury brands, we're doing that for luxury brands, of course.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was if you say it's in Italy or in France or something like that, it's more aspirational and desire.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you say it's made in China, it has a negative connotation.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, the work that can be produced in China is spectacular and it's affordable and it's great.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Where it was 10 years ago to now is like a world of difference.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't like putting labels on that.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's only good if the scent itself comes from the south of France.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they have amazing scents, it's what they're known for.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: But also the person sitting in the New Jersey plant, if they're talented enough, they can do the same thing.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I but I do think there is still that kind of cachet of like a big brand like Dior.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, it's French, everything's made there.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it kind of is just like the airiness of a brand.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of the projects we work on now don't have that intentionally, right?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like stripping away a little bit of the pretentiousness.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think what I appreciate so much about the you know, some of the examples I've read about with your work is that you've worked with brands and products that are both quality as well as like the beautiful creative that you bring to it, you know?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something that I would really love for you to kind of like give some words of wisdom on is this idea of like there needs to be a balance.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because for a long time as a consumer myself, I noticed like a lot of brands were just, I mean, they had beautiful packaging, you know, like beautiful design, especially the luxury brands.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: And they were pricing things at like$500, but really what you're paying for was the bottle.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it used to always make me wonder well, like, where is the where's the team that's saying that no, what's inside this bottle has to be just as high of quality as the creative.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'd just love for you to give your insight on that, you know, in terms of like finding that balance as a brand and making sure that you're doing your due diligence to consumers, you know.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, we're not so involved in the product itself.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: We always we're in the room sometimes when, you know, as a design team, um, and we're, you know, we're smelling or we're experiencing stuff.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's but that is really led by the product development teams of of the beauty brands themselves.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: But we, you know, most of the people we work with, they're equally as passionate about that as I am about packaging and design.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the perfect trifecta when those two things come together.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's many instances where the package is really good, but what's inside is not.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: And vice versa.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: You could have a really great product that's super um effective, but it comes in a really crappy bottle or you know, it looks really cheap.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think both scenarios are off-putting, right?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: The first scenario, you might make the purchase because you're seeing something you like and then you get home and use it and it doesn't work.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: The other one, you might not ever make the purchase, right?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't like what you see, you're not gonna go for it.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, you never get to see that amazing product that's in there.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's that's a good point.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, also like I'm just curious because what does this mean for like where these industries are headed?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, especially like skincare.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'll tell you my own personal experience as a consumer.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of times the best skincare is in like aluminum like tubes.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, that's great.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't mind as a consumer, but I get really excited when I see that brand elevate, you know, and say, okay, now we can afford to have this amazing look.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, what are your thoughts for like skincare brands?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of them, like, you know, we have a lot of listeners that are in that space that are doors.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: Skincare is different, it's very different from fragrance, right?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: Still obviously beauty, but skincare, the the efficacy of the product is the most important, right?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: We all want to do whatever we want to do to our skin to achieve our goals, whatever those might be.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's very serious, right?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: This is clinical, this is clinically backed information, this is doctor-based information.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of times you have scientists or doctors or dermatologists um working on stuff.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that to me is the most important.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: The packaging is second, in my opinion, there.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think it has to always tell the story, like we're saying.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: But if you were putting on like my retin egg cream, let's say it comes from the pharmacy from a doctor.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Packaging is not pretty whatsoever.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: The best formula I could put on my face.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: I've been using it for 20 years.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like sometimes you just make that disassociation, right?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like this doesn't have to look good.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: This is a tactile executionary product, right?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not a brand, right?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's something different.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: So the harmony comes when the two come together and they synergize, and you have a really beautiful brand that's telling the right story.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we worked on this brand called Aquium.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's an Italian brand.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really interesting story.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: The founder is an oncologist, and his brother was in product, I think, manufacturing and formulation.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: And the oncologist said, I keep getting patients that are under chemotherapy treatment complaining about their skin.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's dry, it's cracking, it hurts, it's red, and no products they found were really working.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: So white space, right?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about, he identified that white space, and they created this amazing product, very Italian focused, very kind of high-end and chic that solves that problem.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then they came to us for the packaging and the branding, and we elevated.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we you made it look the way that it should, right?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: From that price point.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a one example of a project we worked on that really had the two working hand in hand, and then it had that strong message on top of it.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's not only for people under chemotherapy or you know, in cancer patients, it's for anybody, but it actually helps that as well.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's really I like that.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the science that it meets just something that consumers relate to.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's huge.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the way we were briefed on that one is exactly the right way.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: They had the formulation, they had the problem, they had their goals, and we got all this data.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they gave us tons of data and information, and we were able to create around that.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: Even coming up with the brand color, which is ultimately a blue, a deep blue metallic.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: That all tied into all of the scientific data and the and what they were trying to achieve.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's not sterile looking and it's not, yeah, that's yeah, it's simple, right?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's not overly designed, it's very simple, but it's qualitative.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: We have nice glass, heavy products.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: The metallic is on the inside of some of the products, outside of others, you know, simple branding.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's really, really nice.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, that was designed right before COVID.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: I was in Milan on March, I don't know, the beginning of March, I think.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we were there for focus groups for for the packaging and for the product and everything.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we went out and we were having a good time while we were there.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone was like, oh, this is the last night of, you know, that we're gonna be out and about.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, what are you talking about?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Lo and behold, we wake up on Sunday morning, the city is shut down, and people are like massed up and suited up, and we were like, we're stuck in along for a day, we're not getting home.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but we wound up getting home and it was fine, getting off topic, but it was interesting, just the whole timing of everything.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's fascinating because I mean that was a that was always been one of my big questions.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many of these like like doctor-founded or like you know, super science-heavy brands, and it's like, how do you bring that world of like beautiful packaging, beautiful creativity, and make it appealing?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, honestly, I feel like medicine would evolve more if we had just more appealing look to things, you know?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I agree.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: The the medical medical sector needs a whole redo.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: It does, it really does.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like you need, I feel like you need to start your own agency for just that, please.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's true.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I mean, it's not that we are looking to expand, and that's part of our growth plan is to expand into other categories.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: Beauty is our heart and soul and will always be, but we're looking at categories that are kind of you know, cousins and sisters and brothers, so a lot of CPG and wellness and you know, things like that, and pharmaceuticals and and medical.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that I feel like it should be a natural extension.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you 100%.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's it's just way more easy to get people behind things that are more efficacious, like you know, you were talking about efficacy is number one.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is, but if you can't even get the consumer to look at it, you know, and if you can't even get them to interest it, they're not never gonna use it.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have so many supplement brands.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how you feel about supplements, but I know there are some like I can count on one hand, the ones that are like really, really efficacious.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I look at them like, guys, you gotta get those in front of everybody, you know?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like you got to get people to look at your product.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's I agree.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: Even when I'm shopping for food or just toiletries, I mean, I I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go first to what catches my eye and what looks like good design.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna think I'm crazy, but I don't like having bottles in the shower that are poorly designed.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: It makes me uncomfortable.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't either.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm with not even thank God my husband is the same because we share that.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I'm not buying that ads hidden.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, but it's like part of like the self-care process.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I like arrange my bottles, I'm like, look how pretty this looks together.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's like a whole thing.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: So totally the shampoo I was using.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't I didn't like the package, but I like the bottle.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh sorry, I like the product.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I just bought bottles that I liked and I would just dump it in.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I look in my shower.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: It looks the way I want it to look.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: I need to do that because there's some where I'm just like, oh my god.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: You can get them on Amazon, they're like three bucks for a nice chic black bottle, easy, pump on it.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's actually brilliant.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: I need to do that because there's some where I'm like, you're in the ugly corner.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're gonna keep going.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: When you go to hotels, the nice hotels, and they have their own branded soap and it's on the wall and it's in the dispensers or in the shower.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, well, why can't I do that at home?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank John, thank you so much.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: This has been amazing.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: I could I feel like I could do a whole masterclass with you, you know, for all this.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to do that.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I can't thank you enough for all of your wisdom and your time.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: This has been amazing.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I just really, really like I'm in awe of just like honestly.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: This is great.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: I would gladly do this anytime with you, any master classes.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: I love talking about it.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, it's exciting to me.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope other people think the same.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, no one gets to hear about this information.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is such an important niche in, you know, just every industry, and we never learn about it.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's phenomenal.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you so much.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.