Latest / Unstuck Pod / Data Driven Tech Decisions (David Jorjani and Jamie Schneiderman)
Transcript
- Jamie: David, welcome. Thanks for coming. Appreciate it. David Jorjani: Thank you for having Jamie: So listen, for the sake of those who are listening, watching, can you them about yourself, ⁓ what you've where you come from, what you're doing right now? And then we'll, from there, we'll dig into the conversation. David Jorjani: I'll make it brief. I have an engineering background, was a founding engineer at a fintech startup so many years ago. That company is still going. We raised a bunch of rounds. Stumbled upon product just because the company that I wanted to work with, the team that I wanted to work with, had a product role. became a product person. ⁓ If don't know, it's essentially figuring out what to build, how to build, and prioritizing from the technology or software perspective. That company was acquired ⁓ several years ago. we're in this space of ⁓ using AI for recruiting. This is pre LLM days or GenAI. ⁓ there are a lot of things that come when you use AI for making human related decisions and regulations in different countries. So ⁓ may or may not get into that. And after acquisition, I moved on to another HR tech company building a platform for matching professionals, executives, ⁓ managing directors with coaches who can help them level up. their roles or whatever ⁓ needed to work on, supported by their companies. And that was about two years ago. And since then I've been exploring why was it I started exploring my next venture to on. And now these days, mostly I work with the founders and CEOs ⁓ of early stage or established Some of them are CELU entrepreneurs working on their next venture. ⁓ start from zero to one. Some of them are having that established business and want to have a new branch or level up in some way. And we work on ⁓ making initiatives happen. ⁓ mostly on HR, education and healthcare these days, mostly because of interest and a bit of background, I would say. Jamie: Okay. Interesting. No, thanks for sharing. That's great. My, ⁓ by the way, my, my, the two startups that I had were both in the HR tech space. So what are the, you know, what are the chances? There you go. Right. Like it's a lot of experience and some, lot of the same areas, not, not exactly the same stuff, but that, but that's cool. So, so, ⁓ so I love to talk about, you know, some of the differences that you see between the zero to one, like you talk about, you know, David Jorjani: Hahaha. Jamie: zero to one versus how do we get to the next stage? So are the differences that you're seeing in those two places when you dive in? I know you're talking product, but you see the whole thing and you've been part of the whole thing. So. David Jorjani: The zero to one usually, this is actually a counter-intuitive lesson that I've seen most CEOs fall into that I have to help them unlearn when I work with them. I didn't know this the years, but essentially ⁓ to one means this founder CEO and the team have come up with something from nothing. They have the idea from somewhere and there are different flavors of the idea that comes through. Great. So they've learned, they built a business ⁓ to a million or something like that in revenue. They've proven the early traction. Beyond that, ⁓ now there are customers, there are people using relying the system or software that they have. And there is a point where we need to change from ideation from the founding team or the CEO to figuring out what works in terms of what the customers want or need, the data says, or some of those things. And that's where a lot of the pushback needs to happen where initially if I'm entering a business as a product leader or technology leader, I would say, yes, yes, yes. And then I realized a lot of times these founders are building something for that they have in mind, or if they're an expert in the area for themselves, but the customer is not the expert. So we're compiling this product and I have to push back and figure out simplification. my of choice has been data. So figure out what worked and different flavors of data to help adjust course and have evidence in terms of. Jamie: Uh-huh. David Jorjani: what is worthwhile for us to work on? Jamie: I think it's great. This idea that you go from a pure like out and like nothingness to something and and you just have to prove it and how different that is then well, we're not proving anything more. Now we're actually we know and this is what it is like now how do we do it or what should we be doing and not be doing going forward and in a much more definitive way. Let's talk I want to talk through a little bit. around the difficulty or the complexity around some of those conversations, right? This is a founder, it's their baby. been living in a world where they've, you know, they see they've been hunting and searching for and finding opportunity. And it's always been about new and new ideas. And now all of a sudden, it's like, well, that's it's less about that and more about this is what it is. And now ⁓ want to get more of it. So so talk through the challenges in that conversation. David Jorjani: the idea is like, I'm the new guy and they've been running their business for some years at that point that I come in businesses in the past. started from the beginning with them building the technology, but at the end it was like, they are the expert of either their business, their industry, their customers. And sometimes implicit, explicit, like ⁓ I know what working on. That's how I'm here and I'm more successful and I'm paying you to be here. And that's the thing that has worked so far. And it's understandable. now what, after having worked with, I don't know, so many founders, there's a bit of a credibility and also honestly self belief around like, you know what, maybe I can ask these questions and thinking about where things fall apart. The challenges are, okay, so understanding the business enough. Now these are busy folks. They don't have the time to sit down and open things up quite a lot, unless you kind of like budget time for it. So. Jamie: Mm-hmm. David Jorjani: What happens is we have the early conversation, there's some assumptions that come up, ideas that I may either work with the systems or the team to figure out whether they're true or not and validate. And essentially advocating for a new way of operating in ⁓ addition to everything that may be changing in the business. And that adoption means... ⁓ working differently and changing one more thing in the business that the founders or the CEOs may not necessarily be ready for. I've kind of like ⁓ learned make it step by step, smaller chunks, ⁓ and getting who's a little more closer to the problem, maybe a ⁓ CTO a COO or somebody else who's a little bit more involved in that aspect of the business to work with me in partnering with that. Because the CEOs essentially have the driving, the decision. but they don't have the time to invest anything beyond the direction. Jamie: So, okay, so, but I do want to talk about, so you're talking about a different way of operating, a different way of doing things, but, is it that the is the direction no matter what? And now we're having conversations about how exactly to do it, or is it, or ⁓ are I would imagine that there are some situations where it's, you the how and some of the other pieces. necessitate a conversation that pushes back on, you know, where we're headed as well. Does that make sense or does it doesn't work out like that for you? David Jorjani: I'm looking at examples in the past. the way is they, ⁓ the cases that I'm thinking about, there's an opportunity that the CEO may see. It's like, this is where I want to go. ⁓ this is where I want to invest some money time in. And ⁓ a And ⁓ whether invest time or like money into this or build it. that's where sometimes it may be know what, I see it. Sometimes I buy your, I take your word for it. Jamie: Mm-hmm. David Jorjani: And then we go a little bit and then see the results and how things pan out. ⁓ Sometimes it is like, I with AI, these is like, want to bring AI into this and like whatever the term is in thinking through this. And they have an assumption or an opinion with what they want. They don't talk about the outcome necessarily, but I have a sense of the outcome. So I make that thing that is implicit explicit. So now if the thing that we're talking about, the initiative we're talking about is business related. Jamie: Right. David Jorjani: to their domain with this new opportunity, I trust the judgment in the first little bit and we go and see how we evaluate as we move forward. But it is something about the solutioning of ⁓ how do things and how ⁓ or might AI do for them ⁓ and things then they're making some assumptions that is within my area of expertise. And I kind of jump in to help clarify some of those things because more often than not, some salesperson or some consultant may have sold them something, or they've seen an article somewhere on one of these many, many newsletters or like magazines or like whatever, that this is happening, we're falling behind, there's element of fear potentially, or least curiosity. So that's where I need to say, you know what, the results of this company achieved, well, one, is it real? Is it ⁓ what they're claiming to be, or is there ⁓ something on? ⁓ Jamie: and David Jorjani: Depending on the nature of the initiative, the conversation may vary. Jamie: So, okay, so you talked, and this is interesting, because you're talking about decision making and how to know you're on the right track. And you talked about the shift from smaller organization, the zero to one, to the call it the one plus. And it's not like a locked in stone time, but in general, generally speaking, and the shift to data. how much data, so as the data starts to roll in around that time, I would like to talk about the second part, not necessarily when there's an initial thing. but you're involved with a company that's now moving to the next phase. How much is data? What kind of data? When's the data driving that decision? Is the data based on, right? You have a CEO who might be used to, have a hunch. You said it. I have a hunch. have an idea. have a thought versus, you know, now the data says, well, you're, I don't want say your hunch is wrong or dumb. I don't mean it like that, but it's sort of like your, your hunch There's some value here, but you've got to lean into the data to make it make more sense or how do you put those two things together? David Jorjani: usually dig in ⁓ where ask may be coming from or hunch may be coming from. ⁓ I'll this, guess CEOs know that they always hear like, ⁓ they, I to hear what is said and get a sense of like why it's being said and what the intention is behind that. So that's one aspect of it. And I actually mull it over and think about it. The purpose what we're looking at, whether it's like, ⁓ let's bring a voice agents or voice AI or like this or that. ⁓ that will help me understand ⁓ can help ⁓ or disprove the assumptions underneath what is being said or the goal that we want to go through. in ⁓ lot of cases, like in my case, I'm working with like software products for the most part. ⁓ a lot of cases, like ⁓ something as simple as like an onboarding journey or retention where users struggles and what they want or ⁓ they search for, what they ask for versus what already have in the system. Like what... support tickets looks like. there, on the nature of the thing that we're looking at and talking about, ⁓ data that we may use ⁓ be different. And in my case, a lot of times I'm actually setting up the first layers of that data, whether it is building a data myself or building an analytics dashboard or some of those things or getting the team to build those. But the data supporting the assumption the hunch that we I usually have to extract from what is being said by the CEO. And then we go back and say, you know what? We thought this would be the case and let's see people are actually searching for this thing or like this would bring value in some court. And then that becomes another conversation. Jamie: Okay, so I'm wondering as you're talking through this stuff and we're talking about data and a hunch from the CEO some hunches, right? Because again, ⁓ stage, it becomes, there's a lot of that, right? You have to see where things are before they're there. But I want to talk about technology and the natural shifts happening at such a massive rate. How much of the conversations are you having? talked about how versus what, like how of the conversations are you having that where someone goes, ⁓ you said, we need AI, we need agents, need whatever that is versus we're trying to solve XYZ problem. What do you think we should be implementing or how we should be implementing that from a technological point of view? That's my first question. The second thing is, how difficult has it been to sort of lock in on the how, assuming given the pace at which things are changing at David Jorjani: What I've learned is given to your point, how fast things are changing and how many new things are coming up. And business owners and CEOs are like tuned in to a variety of channels where these things come up. And I get messages or like notes around like, Hey, look at this or look at that. Like, what if we ⁓ all ideas that come into play, but those are month long, you're not year long projects. And I'm a startup guy. I'm not like a corporate person who just like getting something to production in a way that doesn't harm the business. ⁓ AI that hallucinates or like has an experience of expensive bad experience for the customers and users ⁓ takes lot of work. It's not as easy as many of these kind ⁓ of new PRs newsletters like make it seem like. And so ⁓ of the flood the new that come to these CEOs that I work with and are there, we figure out what is the thing that potentially a bottleneck, what is the goal? And sometimes it may be that, you we just want to grow at all costs. So we just want to increase revenue. Like there are different things. So what is the goal of the current goal of the business in the next, let's say three months, four months? And then ⁓ I kind of to some extent, and some of them ⁓ I'll... honest, like, tell that you know what this can happen. But some of them, they may forget two weeks from now, and I'm working on the thing that actually I think drives the results. So ⁓ that's kind of like one way of looking at this. A lot of times for that is established, new technology be noise, if it doesn't solve the bottleneck or the key problem that the business has in this moment. And because there's so many of them out there, we're in the age where technology or AI is the driving factor of a lot of aspects of economy, which means many, many times we're starting from the solution, whether we have the problem or not, whether that problem is the core problem, whether that problem is the critical path of the business growth or not. That's a whole other conversation that a lot of times we forget. And that's something that I need to bring back. Jamie: Yep. David Jorjani: it takes a bit of a relationship building and trust in that, ⁓ to be able to hear that from someone like me, an outsider who doesn't own the business or doesn't run the business. But, thankfully I've been able to kind like get there to a extent. Jamie: Well, and I imagine that part of it for you is when if you're coming back to that and pushing back in those areas, it's not because you have anything at stake. It's just you believe. I mean, that's one of the benefits of being an outsider is that your objective there isn't. Right? There's no game that you're playing. It's just, here's what I believe is the right thing to do. So in some ways I would, and you know, you're thoughtful about it. That's great. I mean, I think it, I think it's very, and a very important thing for every founder to have people around them that they can trust that will just tell them what they believe no matter what, right? Without any stake in it at all. So, ⁓ that's, that's great. How much are these guys leaning on you and your expertise from latest and greatest technology? you're talking about they are ⁓ ahead, they are up to date and other things. How much have they, are they actually just pushing for? I'm curious, we need ⁓ and great, like we need to be ahead of the curve from a technology point of view. How much of that is important versus that we need to sell? We need to accomplish XYZ. So. technology. ⁓ the distinction I'm trying to make here is between technology for the sake of technology leading edge or bleeding edge versus best tools to accomplish what we're trying to do. David Jorjani: trying to think of specific examples without obviously naming them. have ⁓ clients that I work with that are purely business oriented. They want a business outcome. They have a business goal that I know that we know we talk about this. ⁓ sometimes we talk about potential ways that we may accomplish those goals ⁓ technology becomes a conversation. I have clients who are ⁓ looking a completely way of doing things. And I know what they are thinking about is not real. Like Technically my title has like a CPTO product and technology officer, like I should bring technology, but in reality I'm like, that will be a waste of my time and your resources. And I would push back. I personally now despite my title and my background, focus on what is the business problem, either an opportunity or whatever it is, what's entailed before we go to the technology side. it's rare that I offer technology to ⁓ a CEO I work with or that I know without knowing the problem that we've talked through before. In their cases, I've seen ⁓ many things look at these guys who are doing something similar, but they're using whatever the latest technology is. Sometimes they're excited, I think. Sometimes they're curious. Sometimes they are worried and think different reasons. And honestly, a lot of times I don't think they want me to take action on those technologies. It's not a going concern. variety of different scenarios and things that may be happening here. And I didn't give you one answer that explains it, but like so many possibilities or so many ways that things can happen. Jamie: Sure, no, no, of course. Okay, so What I'd love to know is if you're going to share some like piece of advice that you would give founders, CEOs that you're talking to about ⁓ how to help them leverage technology or the approach that they would take to leveraging technology, take their business to the next level, what would that be? David Jorjani: I think after a certain point, CEOs lose touch with the specifics of how the business happens or what happens inside the business. And the team may not necessarily be like super forthright when it comes to the challenges. Technology for the most part at the end of the day is solution to some kind of a problem. And what I encourage or what I work with is figure out from either the, if we're building for like employees or people inside the business. What is it that needs to happen? What the struggles or challenges or problems are there? And then from there, figure out like, what can help with that result that we're looking at like unblocking these folks. if it's on the customer side or the user side, figure that part out. ⁓ I think ⁓ on the size of the company, the CEOs lose touch of ⁓ day-to-days the business and getting know that first, which they don't have the luxury, but maybe that's where I come in or some external folks can come in to figure out, so how is this business operating and where things could be improved? And then what technology and how. Jamie: Okay. No, I, and again, I think about, think it's what I hear from you is how do you bridge the business need with the technology? And sometimes the CEO may see one part of it and not see the other, or, know, they don't see all of it at all, any of the pieces and all the pieces that go from where they are all the way to the end. So it's like, I think you are in a unique position to be able to bring some of that information to them. hopefully to help. with decision making along the way as they go. this is great. ⁓ can you ⁓ people know ⁓ can they find you and follow what you're doing now going forward? David Jorjani: I do, I am on LinkedIn. post every now and then ⁓ variety of factors, mostly things that I get from working with people and AI builders. I've also ⁓ started a newsletter where I talk about ⁓ some of the lessons I've learned along building specifically with AI. I build AI tools with AI. It's a bit meta, but ⁓ there's a lot of nuances to it that I've learned in the past two years that I've been working on this project. Jamie: Very cool. I love it. That's great. And we'll make sure that we add in links in the description so that people can find you, because hopefully that would be a good thing out of that. anyway, that was terrific. So thank so much for your time. Really appreciate it and your insight. And yeah, good luck with all the building and with the clients that you've got. And for everybody who's watching, well, thanks so much. And we'll see you in the next episode. David Jorjani: Great, thank you for having me.