Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / Why Do You Lose Friends After Divorce?

Transcript

Why Do You Lose Friends After Divorce? · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

0:05
Hi everybody, and welcome to this episode of the doctor psych
0:08
mom show. Please do subscribe.
0:11
I just recorded a subscriber episode and it was about when
0:14
you have implicit rules about what you can and cannot say in
0:17
couples counseling. So that will be relevant to more
0:20
of you than I like to admit it. And if that gave you a weird
0:24
feeling listening to it, then, yes.
0:26
Again, I am psychic. And this is a common pattern on
0:30
something that you should really hear me talk about.
0:33
Because It goes beyond just trying to save face or being
0:38
scared of your spouse. All right, so anyway today's
0:41
episode is on a very common thing that happens which is
0:44
losing friends after divorce and people talk about this at my
0:48
Facebook group people talk about this just in general.
0:52
It's something that everybody who's divorced has experienced
0:55
and a lot of people don't understand why it happens so
0:58
that's what we're going to talk about today and this could start
1:01
even back from separation. You know I mean as soon as you
1:04
separate even Before even when you try to talk about wanting to
1:08
separate then a lot of people will will disapprove and so,
1:14
why, you know, I mean, there's numerous reasons why, right?
1:18
So if you have anybody, that's religious, if you have any
1:21
friends that literally don't believe in divorce or family
1:24
members. Then they disapprove it's the
1:26
same as if you told them you were, you know, you started a
1:29
heroin habit or something, like they just disapprove, they think
1:32
that it's bad, they think everybody's gonna get hurt.
1:35
And you know, they'll they'll that they will just disapprove
1:40
in the same way that they would. If you said any other thing that
1:43
you you know, we're going to start bungee jumping with your
1:45
kids every Saturday morning. You know, they would think that
1:48
it's risky and terrible and the children are going to get hurt,
1:51
right? So there are those people but
1:55
then you say, well what about my more liberal friends?
1:57
They're not religious at all in theory.
1:59
They believe in divorce, you know, and they believe in people
2:03
being happy and Why don't I have those friends anymore?
2:07
Well, I mean there are different reasons, right?
2:09
I mean, first of all, it's a known thing for a reason
2:12
stereotypes exist for a reason that women kind of keep a couple
2:16
friends after divorce. This is because a lot of couple
2:20
friends or predicated on the woman's close friendship with
2:23
another woman. And so, even when the husband's
2:26
become friends, they just became friends because of the wives
2:28
being best friends. Women are generally more social
2:31
and have more friendships. According to any research, you
2:34
could find that Men especially after marriage and especially
2:38
after kids and an older age. Etc, men have fewer friendship.
2:42
So the women's friendships if they were the linchpin of the
2:44
whole operation, then it's going to remain that.
2:48
The woman keeps the female friendship and the man, the
2:53
husband basically stops answering the guys text because
2:56
his wife hates the guy. Because, you know, the divorce
3:00
is then pinned on the husband and in order for the women to
3:03
stay friends, the woman needs to see.
3:05
Loyal to the woman. It's a whole thing.
3:07
So in that case I never advised the man to just keep like
3:12
somehow going after this guy to reclaim friendship.
3:15
No I mean he picked his side you know let him be and go find
3:19
other friends with other divorced men or somebody else
3:22
you know, old friends that you could reconnect with or what
3:25
have you now, family members are also going to side with the XY
3:31
frequently because she may get more custody of the kids.
3:34
So the A man's own parents. May think that if they want to
3:37
see the grandkids, they better be on the side of the ex-wife,
3:40
and they may well be, you know, that that may be true because in
3:44
many cases the woman does get more custody and it's not always
3:47
like the man wants it, sometimes he wants it and doesn't get it
3:50
increasingly if he wants it, he gets it.
3:52
But frequently, he doesn't because he has a high-powered
3:55
job. He's gone a lot, he travels a
3:57
lot, so he'll take Wednesday night and every other weekend
4:00
instead of 50/50 or something like that or he just is not
4:05
Confident about parenting on its own.
4:06
Or he feels bad for her because she had her whole life being a
4:09
mother. And so he lets the kids
4:11
especially if they're little be more with the mother sometimes.
4:13
They want to be more with the mother, for whatever reason it
4:17
is, if the woman ends up with more custody than the
4:19
grandparents and the family, especially will want to maintain
4:23
their ties with the ex-wife so that they could see the kids
4:26
more. So, then we get down to the
4:30
friends that don't disapprove of divorce and they don't care
4:34
about seeing the the kids more, but they just give little snarky
4:37
comments or they get very disapproving or they get
4:40
disapproving. Once you start dating or once
4:43
you start remarrying or at some point, they start to get very
4:46
disapproving. Usually these come into buckets.
4:50
There are very anxious people that hate change and so they
4:55
really wanted and they want everything to stay the same.
4:58
It gives them too much. Cognitive, dissonance to have a
5:01
friend divorce because they thought well, now we in our
5:04
friend group are Married, and that's how it's going to stay.
5:07
And any sort of change makes them very, very anxious.
5:11
They also overstate the impact on the children because people
5:14
project their own personality on to others.
5:17
So they feel that the children must feel horrible and like
5:22
this, that the other, of course, kids feel bad after divorce.
5:24
But they'll overstate it just like in any other state anxious,
5:27
people project their own anxiety on to others, even their own
5:30
children, you know. So they'll think their kid is
5:33
being ostracized when the kid just I'd like a fight with a
5:36
friend, you know. And so these sort of people see
5:39
the negative everywhere. This is a very anxious worldview
5:42
and so then they are going to overstate the damage that is
5:46
being done by the divorce. It makes them anxious to think
5:48
about change in general. They don't like the idea of like
5:52
one person that they know being divorced, but not everybody
5:54
else. And it's like like they get very
5:56
rigid. And so there's those people and
5:59
then and or then these could be the same people there's people
6:02
with their own unhappy marriages, you know.
6:04
So if See your relationship with somebody was bitching and
6:07
moaning about how shitty your marriages, were, like misery
6:10
loves company and this is not an uncommon way to bond.
6:14
Then, one person decides, you know what, I've had enough.
6:17
I'm going to go pursue happiness and whatever form outside of
6:20
this marriage and end this marriage.
6:22
The other person can feel very abandoned and very, very
6:25
resentful and jealous. And if they if they, if they
6:29
push the jealousy under the rug because they don't want it to
6:31
come up to Consciousness because that makes them feel bad and
6:34
kind of Threatened you know because then they might have to
6:37
move on on like you know their own divorce or something.
6:40
If they were to allow it to come to Consciousness instead.
6:43
They will you know, fixate on this person as not working hard
6:49
enough on the marriage or being irresponsible or like something
6:53
like that in reality, they don't like the flashlight being shown
6:58
being shined on their own marital dysfunction.
7:01
So it's very quick like to figure out who this Is because
7:05
if a female client says to me, oh my God, my friend, you know,
7:09
said to me like, oh, like you dating all these different guys
7:13
right? Now, you know that much that
7:15
that's so irresponsible, you know?
7:17
Like what if this happened, what if that happened?
7:19
You know, this that the other. Like, I don't know if I could
7:22
support you having sex with like different men, you know, after
7:25
your divorce or whatever. Like you know as though it's
7:28
like her own vagina. How much he cares about it or
7:30
something? I'm like, oh, how's her
7:32
marriage? Invariably, the woman be like
7:35
Oh, her marriage. Well, her marriage, not that
7:37
great. You know, I mean, I don't think
7:38
they've had sex in a couple years and you know, it's always
7:41
been up in the air whether the guy's been cheating on her and
7:44
also they did try couples counseling.
7:47
It's always like a shit show you that.
7:49
So like the person of course, they don't like the idea of the
7:52
friend pursuing their happiness and freedom because on some
7:55
level, they wish they could. But they can't for whatever
7:58
reason often, it's the same kind of persona, the same sort of
8:02
personality overlaps. And it's someone who's very Of
8:05
change scared of moving forward. So because they're trapped in an
8:09
unhappy marriage, the only kind of person they could really bond
8:12
with as another person who feels trapped in an unhappy marriage
8:15
and then they engage on the rhetoric of oh my God.
8:18
Man. / women are so terrible. Oh my God, this is just how life
8:21
is, oh my God. Oh my God, parenting sucks.
8:25
Marriage sucks! Everything sucks.
8:26
And so when one person moves away from that, then it's a huge
8:31
stress to the relationship. I constantly talk about when one
8:35
person in a relationship, meaning a romantic relationship.
8:38
Improves that gets healthier, then it often stresses the
8:41
relationship to the max. I always give the example of
8:45
this codependency is in the movie, When a Man Loves a Woman
8:47
with Meg Ryan, but a little version of this can happen in
8:50
friendships. So when one friend gets
8:53
healthier, I mean you could see it so quickly when somebody
8:55
stops drinking, right? So if you have ever like had
8:58
relationships based on like we go out and get drunk and then
9:01
you've stopped drinking. Everybody doesn't like it.
9:04
They're not like, oh, You oh wow you're really healthy.
9:07
Now they may say that but there's like a little with some
9:10
people, some people are genuinely happy, the more
9:12
confident and happy people, they are the more happy they are for
9:15
you. But the people who struggle with
9:18
their own, let's say insecurities about do.
9:21
I drink too much. Those people are not going to be
9:23
happy they're going to make the snide comments so it's exactly
9:26
the same thing. If you are trying to pursue your
9:29
own self actualization and the other person feels trapped then
9:34
it's very comfortable to To think all adults, feel trapped,
9:37
all marriages are difficult. Everything is a burden.
9:41
It's a straight shot to the Grave, you know, whatever they
9:43
think. If you show that, you don't
9:45
believe that anymore, then the marriage not the marriage.
9:49
See it's very similar to what happens in marriages, but then
9:52
the friendship will be stressed to the Max and often does not
9:54
survive that and it also when you divorce you do change a lot,
9:59
this is a time of tremendous and expedited self-actualization and
10:04
growth. So People will take up other
10:06
Hobbies, their learning more about themselves.
10:08
They're dating again, they're learning about themselves as a
10:11
potential partner, their parenting on their own.
10:13
They have to get a new house. They may have to, like, start
10:16
working a different job. So this is a time of very fast
10:20
tracked growth and so you've changed your changing a lot.
10:24
And some of your interests frequently with divorced people
10:27
turned very self oriented such as Fitness, you know?
10:31
So a lot of divorced people of both genders, get back into
10:34
shape. They say, wow, I really let
10:36
myself go during the marriage and they try to get back into
10:38
shape. So, these sorts of things can
10:40
seem very superficial to the other partner, you know?
10:44
And quite honestly in today's, you know, day and age, where
10:48
there is split, custody a lot, you also have a lot more time so
10:52
you're doing more stuff and they don't have time to do it again.
10:55
There may be some jealousy and there may be some, you know,
10:59
just thinking that you were selfish and shallow so and and
11:03
those may be related so but whatever it is.
11:05
They no longer feel that you have a lot of stuff in common,
11:08
you know. So you go into your sculpting
11:10
class and going to CrossFit on the Tuesdays and Thursdays.
11:14
Let's say that you don't have the kids.
11:15
If you were previously bonding with your girlfriend's about how
11:18
our life is such a such drudgery, then it's no longer
11:22
going to be relevant you know and not all of this is about the
11:26
is about the person not being happy.
11:29
Sometimes if you want to look inward when you divorce, you get
11:33
kind of self absorbed in that. That you're going through a
11:36
traumatic thing and you met over confide in your friends.
11:39
So if you got to think about this, are you using your friends
11:41
too much as a sounding board? Do you have friends that are
11:44
perfectly supportive? But they don't necessarily want
11:47
to be the person that you call up and use as a free therapist
11:50
and that you have to tell about all the ups and downs with
11:52
whoever else you're dating and whatever.
11:54
Unless you relationship was previously like that, then this
11:58
could be a big change for the worse and they don't have like
12:02
all this crazy stuff going on in their life.
12:04
So they may start to feel Caffrey therapist that in this
12:06
case, you know, obviously it makes sense that they would not
12:09
want to remain friends. And so you, this is why a lot of
12:12
divorced people really need an actual therapist.
12:15
It's a great time to introspect. Figure out who you want to be,
12:18
who you're going to be moving forward.
12:19
And also, make sure that there's somebody you're paying to talk
12:22
to once a week about your travails.
12:24
So that you don't have to depend overly much on any one,
12:27
individual friend who of course has their own life, you know, to
12:30
deal with. So this could be another reason
12:32
and you got to think about if that's relevant to you.
12:35
The most common one that I see is just at your ID such
12:39
different phases now, and usual, but which can sometimes be
12:43
accommodated. But if the friend struggles with
12:47
their own marital dissatisfaction and is in a
12:50
Martyrs is a martyr sort of person, you know somebody who
12:54
feels that life is suffering and that this is what marriage is
12:58
and you know, of course, like nobody can be fully happy and
13:02
you make your life, only around your kids and whatever.
13:05
And that was like rhetoric that you were also espousing previous
13:09
to the divorce. Well then you've really just
13:11
become different people you know.
13:13
And there's like no sometimes there's no getting over it
13:16
because they're going to continue to make like pointed
13:18
Jabs about yo must be nice. I have no responsibility on
13:22
those days or like whatever or you know, of course, the fake
13:26
concern. Like, it must be so hard for you
13:30
not to have the children 100% of the time, you know, which had
13:33
called weaponized. CERN in a different podcast but
13:39
there's a lot of ways that people can make it clear that
13:41
you make them uncomfortable. So, what's the healthy approach
13:44
to healthy approaches? Just to kind of, you know, like,
13:47
pull back a little bit and let them be the one to contact you.
13:52
And then get a more objective perspective on why they contact
13:56
you. It's very easy nowadays with
13:57
text that used to be primarily on the phone.
14:00
Like, literally people will, like tell me about texts where
14:03
if they wait for like a couple? To let the friend the one that
14:06
makes the point of Jabs Reach Out.
14:08
They'll look. And it's like every time the
14:10
person text them, it's like, oh, I just, you know, like, was
14:15
thinking that, you know, you should be careful meeting that
14:19
new guy on that, you never know. Somebody could be a serial
14:22
killer, you know. And we're like, we're like just
14:25
thinking about how much you must miss your kids.
14:26
And like, it's like every text is kind of - and intended to to
14:32
show the person that they made the wrong choice which is Only
14:35
done by somebody who is not happy themselves and wants to be
14:38
more confident in their own choices.
14:40
So then their own internal voice says, well maybe she is, you
14:44
know, remarried to somebody you know successfully but look at
14:48
the statistics on divorce in second marriages.
14:50
Who knows how long that'll last anyway?
14:53
And you know I'd better the devil you know than the devil
14:55
you don't. And my husband I may not have
14:56
had sex in six years but fuck it.
14:58
Sex isn't everything, you know, the children are everything.
15:01
You know, and it's like you you can't really There, you can't
15:06
really get on the same page anymore.
15:08
If these if this is how different you guys think about
15:11
marriage and life etcetera, Etc. So some relationships you just
15:15
outgrow them. And divorce is a big inflection
15:17
point for that. And, you know, because you do
15:21
turn in somewhat to a different person because it's such a
15:23
tremendous life change. So, if this has happened to you,
15:26
you are not alone. It isn't because you're some
15:28
uniquely terrible person. That means that you lost friends
15:31
after divorce. It's freaking it's frequent.
15:33
It's like so calm Amin and there are some friends that are still
15:38
your friends after divorce and those again are usually the more
15:41
happy confident people that have better marriages you know and
15:44
then they don't care. They want everybody to be happy
15:46
like them and so they think oh good, you know I mean there's
15:50
going to be ups and downs but this person will try my friends
15:54
here, will try to be happy, everybody deserves to be happy
15:58
and that's kind of a different sort of way to go about it.
16:00
Then nobody deserves to be happy almost which is the other
16:03
competing. The competing philosophy, which
16:07
then would make sense of the person's own self sacrifice and
16:11
inability to be happy in their own marriage which then, you
16:14
know, becomes uncomfortable to think about really.
16:17
So, so this is, this is an overview of why people.
16:21
And I also have a post about it. So a lot of this overlapped with
16:24
the post, how to loot, you know, why people lose friends after
16:27
divorce, which I'll link you to in the description, and
16:30
hopefully was relevant and cleared up some of your, some of
16:34
your thought process. These about this.
16:36
And because a lot of times people blame themselves, and
16:38
again, sometimes you should because you're over confiding
16:42
calling them at all. We are times of the night, you
16:45
know, etcetera. But in cases where that's not
16:47
happening, then there can be some competing variables at
16:50
play. Nobody's good or bad in this
16:53
scenario, you're just no longer compatible as friends, you know,
16:58
and compatibility is super important in friendship as it is
17:01
in all relationships. And if you're no longer at the
17:04
same place, He's then it just really may not work out, you
17:09
know. And if somebody feels kind of
17:11
that they want to tear you down in order to feel better about
17:14
themselves. Then that, you know, it may have
17:17
been a good friend for many years when you were at the same
17:20
place in life but they can no longer deal with it, right?
17:23
So you know oh and I forgot there is another kind of friend
17:28
and this is a friend, who's not in a relationship.
17:31
So you can't say that they're not in a happy marriage or
17:33
anything because they're not. Relationship.
17:35
But these friends, if you are in an unhappy marriage and then you
17:39
got a friend who's not in any kind of a relationship, the
17:42
perennially single friend, then you're probably spending more
17:45
time with them when you're married.
17:46
Then you do in your divorce and when you're married and
17:49
unhappily married, then they could say basically.
17:51
Oh, it's good. That I don't have a relationship
17:54
because look at her relationship or his relationship so bad.
17:57
You know, and so or very disappointing in whatever way.
18:01
So makes me feel kind of good about myself that I'm not in a
18:04
relationship. Chip.
18:06
But if you then divorce and start to pursue other exciting
18:09
romantic relationships than this, also May tip the balance
18:13
with this person. So you don't actually want you
18:15
to be happy, and they are because it makes them feel
18:18
again, very bad about their choices.
18:20
Remember, most friends, most healthy people as adults.
18:24
Do not try to control each other's choices.
18:27
Like that just is not a thing that happens among to healthy
18:30
adults that are, you know, in a friendship, they Is no skin in
18:35
the game. You know what I mean?
18:36
So like they you're never going to come in as a friend and you
18:41
know be somebody's life partner like that isn't your role.
18:45
So kind of your only role as an adult friend is to really be
18:49
supportive. And so some people that are kind
18:52
of really anxious controlling people will be like, but isn't
18:55
it? My place to give my perspective.
18:58
Like, like what, you know, like I should give my perspective on
19:03
somebody's bad choice, whether it's That divorce or a job, or
19:07
their parenting, or whatever. It's never your place.
19:11
It's never ever. Ever your place to give your
19:15
negative feedback. Unless the person specifically
19:18
says, I would like you right now to give me your honest feedback
19:24
on my parenting, then it's then sure go to town know that if
19:28
you're too mean, then of course they may not want to be friends
19:30
with you but I guess you could say something in that situation
19:34
but people that kind of overestimate their importance,
19:38
it's the same as in-laws. It's like when your
19:40
mother-in-law shows up and she's like I don't think you should
19:42
wear that dress. It's like bitch who asked you
19:44
you know nobody asked you so it's the same thing with friends
19:47
when they really start to over kind of overstate their their
19:52
importance it's like they don't have a lot going on in their
19:54
life so they make their life around being the friend who like
19:57
can always give the honest feedback nobody wants that
20:01
person. You know like everybody else in
20:03
the friend group thinks that person is like a Asshole.
20:05
But the point is that person, you know, overstates their
20:10
importance and tries to like think that they have more
20:13
control than they really have. They get off on the idea that
20:17
they could impact somebody. So if they tell the friend that
20:20
the friend shouldn't sleep trainer child, they feel like
20:23
there's this shot that, you know, the friend is like, wow, I
20:27
thought about a totally differently after Mary told me
20:30
that I was being a bad mom. You know that just made me
20:33
respect marry a lot. More and change, my decisions
20:36
about sleep training. That shit isn't going to happen.
20:38
What she's going to say is you know what, I kind of had it with
20:41
that bitch Mary, you know, she maybe she should get her own
20:43
fucking life and stop talking about my kids and my parenting.
20:47
So, I'm never going to return Mary's calls again, that's more
20:49
likely, it's going to happen. So, if you struggle with being
20:52
the friend, that always wants to reach out and correct your
20:57
friends or give your honest feedback, this is not valued by
21:01
healthy people. They don't make decisions Is
21:05
based on like a friend's criticism, you know, if you want
21:10
to, if you of course think that Mary's kids are in Mortal danger
21:14
and you know, or you are marrying.
21:15
You think that your friends kids are in Mortal danger, then, you
21:18
know, you know, cult called the police.
21:20
But overall people want friends who are supportive and, you
21:26
know, just living their own life and, and interested supportive.
21:31
Want to engage, but don't want to control or micromanage.
21:34
And don't have deep skin in the game about your life choices.
21:38
So when that happens it looks more kind of like a seventh
21:42
grade, girl friendship, you know like oh you shouldn't like
21:45
so-and-so because so-and-so is mean that the other girls like,
21:49
oh my God, my best friend said I shouldn't have a crush on.
21:52
So, and so. So I'm going to think about this
21:54
and diary about it and everything and I guess I
21:57
shouldn't like so. And so that's okay.
21:59
If your 12 year old girl. And an in meshed you know, best
22:02
friendship, it no longer Is that way when you're in your mid-30s
22:08
or mid 40s? You know at that point it's kind
22:10
of like if your friend doesn't like your husband maybe they
22:13
should shut the fuck up, really, you know?
22:14
Because it's not their husband. So, you know, think about this,
22:18
if you tend to be in these enmeshed kind of friendships
22:20
there, need to be boundaries for healthy people.
22:23
In friendships two men don't seem to have the same level of
22:26
problem within meshed male friendships where they overtake.
22:30
The guy's advice, men, men in general, can be Be less anxious.
22:35
I've talked about that over and over and that's true.
22:38
That's like definitional prevalence, rates of anxiety
22:40
across genders and it's mostly anxious people that get highly
22:45
and meshed in and involved in their friends, Life Choices.
22:48
Men don't tend to do this. If you're a man in a
22:50
relationship where this is happening, you probably want to
22:53
set a boundary because that guy is kind of struggling with a lot
22:56
of stuff. Probably the one who's trying to
22:57
control what you do in your marriage without you asking for
23:01
advice. If you ask for advice cool, but
23:03
if you don't ask for advice, Vice anybody of any gender
23:06
listening. If you're not asking for advice
23:08
and you got a friend that's always trying to give you
23:09
advice. And the advice is always that
23:11
your kind of stupid. That is not a good relationship.
23:14
That's what we call a toxic friendship.
23:16
So you got to get out of that. All right.
23:18
Well, hope you found this exciting and Illuminating, and
23:21
I'll talk to you all soon.