Latest / The Church Renewal Podcast / Dan Werthman Pt. 2 - Practicing Healthier Systems

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Dan Werthman Pt. 2 - Practicing Healthier Systems · The Church Renewal Podcast

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Church Renewal Podcast.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Matt.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Jeremy.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Last week, in part one of our conversation with Dan Worthman, we heard how discovering family systems theory helped him recognize his own triggers, understand his family story, and bring greater maturity and compassion into ministry.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: This week, we turn from self-work to leadership.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Dan talks about the habits that help pastors stay grounded in anxious moments.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: He explains why preparation and reflection matter, how pausing changes hard conversations, and what it takes to lead with calm in a culture of shame and polarization.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let's jump back in.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: Alright, so we've been in this season, we've been looking at family systems as it applies to me personally and my own growth, but also trying to help our listeners understand that a church family is this interconnected group of people.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's a family.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's a family system of varying complexity based on the size and the history and what parts of it you have you touch into.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's from generation to generation, but as once you begin to start, once you begin to see that you can't un.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: So there's one thing as Christian leaders as we're going, we're making use of family systems, we're using it to grow ourselves and where people ask us to help them grow in it.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that's one application of family systems.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: The other is as Friedman would look at it and he would think about the way that a congregation functions as a family system as well, many times they're broken in various ways.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Can you tell us about a circumstance where you used that insight to help a congregation come to insight about some systemic issues or some anxiety that was there?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: And you simply saying it helped them see it and move the conversation forward.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um I won't identify the church, but uh two assignments ago uh served a church that became very apparent to me with my growing understanding of family systems, that an ongoing dynamic was uh an overfunctioning lead pastor.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it was a church that had grown and grown and grown, and this man was near burnout.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: But his overfunctioning, his attempting to keep everybody happy, his his attempts to uh make sure all the balls were being you know in the air, you know, um his worrying that if he didn't do it, nobody else would, and those balls would drop.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: They were not only nearly burning him out, but they they produced an underfunctioning pastoral staff and an underfunctioning uh group of elders.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there were other dynamics going on in that church, but that one, that overfunctioning, underfunctioning reciprocity that was that was going on there, I brought that out and uh did it in writing, did it it verbally numerous times.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, initially there was some light offense taken.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you tell somebody they're underfunctioning, and you know, they can get a little miffed at that.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: But as as you explain that, and as you especially as I helped them see the the reciprocal nature, seeing overfunctioner needs, underfunctioners, underfunctioners need overfunctioners.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And as as they began to see that, they were more open to making some some good systemic changes.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And uh most recently, the the lead pastor, we sent him on a three-month sabbatical, something he couldn't even conceive of doing, you know, in the middle of his overfunctioning.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the the church has done well, and other people have uh started to function, pick up their functioning.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one specific example in in that particular church.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: For our listeners, remember an overfunctioner.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: This is Cazero's definition, and I think it's really helpful because it's easy to like grab a hold of you overfunction when you do for someone else what they can and should do for themselves.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: Easiest place to see that is when you recognize that you should have let your kid fall or take the consequences for something, or not bailed them out, made them spend some of their money on an Uber.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but in church staffs, churches actually love overfunctioners.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, oh absolutely.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: Churches love overfunctioners.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: I have a church I'm working with right now.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh after I was with the church for the first time for a couple of hours, I sent a very pointed long note to my contact elder that I was dialoguing with and to asked him to only share it among the elders, not with any of the pastoral staff.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: But it was obvious that this pastor who'd been there for a long time had been a classic overfunctioner, and he really worked himself into ill health, into a chronic disease, actually.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: Because I see it in myself and I know what it looks like.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: I just told this elder, I said, when this guy decides to retire, you should do a transitional pastor because you've got to reset this dynamic so that other people function.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because nobody will want this job.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: And the person who wants this job, you don't want here because it would be dangerous.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: You'd be perpetuating a dangerous thing.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Helping people see that dynamic of triangle triangulation, how yes, it it naturally happens, but how we we can function in triangulated relationships that that usually mess up those relationships.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's a dynamic you see in every church.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think as you help, as I've helped people recognize it, put a name on it, that just helps um leaders make some positive changes.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so triangles are important.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: If you're a pastor, getting this idea of triangles down, and you can get it from Jack Shatama very briefly.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: And if you met my family, Roberta Gilbert's kind of the next one up that'll give you a little bit more robust than each of the theories.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Friedman will help you with this from generation to generation.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: Realizing how unconsciously congregants use the pastor as the third leg of a triangle is really, really important.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: And Jack does a really good job of helping you see that it's not always another person.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's an issue, sometimes it's a program, sometimes it's a dynamic that other people are uncomfortable with.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so, Dan, I'll be familiar with this.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Congregants walk into your office as a pastor and they have a live monkey with them, and they attempt to leave their live monkey with you in your office.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: And if you perpetuate this as a pastor, you wake up one day and you're like, why do I have four or five live monkeys jumping around my office?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it's because you allowed yourself to be triangled to an issue instead of helping the person mature and help them deal with their issue.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: You've taken it on yourself.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: And some pastors feel like, well, that's just what I'm supposed to do.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, we're we're there to help people mature.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's what they're that's what we're there for.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: You can offer to go with somebody and have a conversation with them to support them and be there with them.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: But becoming aware of how easily we're triangled and how frequently it happens, because it's been a life changer for me, Dan.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if it's been for you, but it's been a life changer for me.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, it's everywhere, right?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll make a slight distinction between uh being in a triangle and being triangulated.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: We are, as pastors, we are in triangles all over the place.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: When you know a couple comes to you for marital counseling, there's a triangle there.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: When uh when when you're trying to help a couple people in your congregation work through a conflict, there's a triangle there.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: To be triangulated is, you know, a marital counseling situation.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Both spouses, to one degree or another, want to get you on their side when they're really conflicted.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: When you emotionally, when you abandon emotional neutrality and you take up one side because of your own anxiety, because you want to make somebody happy or you don't want somebody upset with you, you become triangulated, you lose your objectivity.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's not about staying out of triangles because ministry demands that we are in triangles, helping people work through things.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's about maintaining that emotional neutrality.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there there are certainly times when we need to take a stand.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't mean neutral, like we never take a stand on anything, but not responding to our own anxiety.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Is this person upset with me?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Does this person like me by by taking aside, rather helping them move towards each other?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's that's our our role.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: We had uh we've had Jack on Jack's Tama on this season as well.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: We had a really neat conversation.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think one of the things that I've appreciated in listening to Jack's podcast, again, our listeners know this about me, but you know, besides reading your Bible and praying, at best 15 minutes a week you can spend is on Jack's podcast.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love Jack's podcast.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that I've appreciated about the way that Jack talks about this and tries to help you mature in it is you can only be responsible for yourself.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so if someone's trying to triangulate you, what's the what's the odd?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, be responsible for yourself.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Keep your head in the midst of this.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: But you're also trying to help these two people.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: And this is an interesting intersection, Dan, that I hadn't thought about until just as you were talking, is that kind of that background in peacemaking and conciliating where you're trying to keep that objective stance, you're trying to help both people take care of their side of the street, where repent where they need to listen to the other person better than they've been.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting that that was some early training in helping people take responsibility.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: Which is which is fascinating to me in God's providence, right?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: In your own story.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because really what we're trying to do in helping people mature in this is we're trying to help them not blame someone else for their reactions, but take responsibility for themselves.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: You're responsible for how you react.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: For us as Christians, the Holy Spirit gives us, enables us to not react in sinful ways, even when triggered.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so when people are taking responsibility, they're maturing.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: When we give them an excuse to not take responsibility, we're not actually helping them.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not that's not good.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm thinking about the overlap here.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: When we when we spoke with um with Jack uh not long ago, Dan, one of the things that we talked about was the impulse that pastors have to care for the flock, to be pastoral, to to be sensitive, to be caring, to be nurturing.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: But what I'm thinking about uh is enablement, and this takes me over to Pat Lancioni.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_03: There's a there's a natural build that I happen to have myself that says I enjoy helping people.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: I get satisfaction, personal deep satisfaction, knowing that I've helped people.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: And when you take these kind of three things, being a pastor, having your own needs, and then a bent towards enablement, and the Holy Spirit is the one who enables us, we do come in as a part of the process, uh, but not discipline the Holy Spirit.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: We're here to point, say, yeah, um, you remember Jesus?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: He's over there.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'll go with you to him.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_03: But he has what you need, I don't.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and I've said this other places.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: If you try to, if you try to get the the water of life from me, I I would not recommend drinking whatever fluids come from me.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus has the water of life, and his is gonna be much, much better.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm curious about something, Dan.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: In all of this, was there a behavior, a practice that you had to intentionally unlearn and able to uh progress through and grow as you were applying uh your family of origin work, FST to your ministry?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I it's certainly still in in progress, but uh it's it's what do I do when anxiety is stirred up in me?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I mentioned before shame.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Shame is one way, but not the only way that anxiety is is stirred up in me.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't believe in this life we'll we'll ever be rid of anxiety, but we we can learn in family systems has is one tool that's helped me do this.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: We can learn to recognize our anxiety and in recognizing it to respond or to respond in more mature ways.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: That my my my default way growing up, you know, what I learned in my family of origin was either to shut down or to explode.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: And pretty immediately upon, you know, I wanted to deal with that anxiety in some way or another.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Neither of those obviously are helpful.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: So uh uh there's there are ways of learning, okay, what do I do?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: How do I even recognize the anxiety?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: What are the physical symptoms that I experience in anxiety?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: What's the thought processes that are going on in my head?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: What are the the actual feelings, the emotions that I'm feeling?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Recognizing all of those really begins to help.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: What are the what's the typical pattern that that I have reacted in my anxiety to?
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And uh how has that not been helpful?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: So uh just slowing down, recognizing that anxiety, practicing some some techniques to reduce, I can't eliminate, but reduce the anxiety, getting more thoughtful.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's a big family systems principle.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Getting more thoughtful in our anxiety.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: How do I want to respond?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: Which may oftentimes is I do I shouldn't do anything right in this moment.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I should take some time and pray and and uh think this through before I uh respond to this person.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: I I like what you said about your body because um this is something that I think I learned from Schizero.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think one of the reasons that he has a good appropriate emphasis, we see it modeled in Jesus, the slowed-down spirituality, right?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: Is that it gives you more space and time between meetings, even in the course that you live life, that you've left time for reflection.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's uh two things have been most helpful that um joined up with Dan saying, I can now recognize when my stomach's becoming tight in a conversation.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's a huge difference over before I started learning all this stuff, right?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Is that I I would that I was completely unconscious of that.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: But now I'm more conscious of it.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, okay, that's a warning sign for me that uh something's happening, I'm not necessarily conscious of it, but now I need to become conscious of it and and understand that it's happening.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes um maybe this is what you were saying, Dan.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: I will sit back and ask myself, why would you react like that?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: For me at least, maybe this is for you as well, but some of that reflecting backwards on something that actually went bad.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if we're if if in our most mature we're we're 50% of the time differentiated, right?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Then, you know, 50% of the time we're not reacting in the best way that we could, but reflection helps us do that.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: What's that look like for you, Dan, when you when you look back on a circumstance?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: How do you try and pray through that?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: How do you try and think through that?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: What does that reflection look like?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you know, prior to really my understanding of family systems or my my beginning of my growth in it, you know, I would look back, I would feel great regret, I'd feel guilt.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I I would want to forget it.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: I would not look at it in any productive way.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: I would just let the guilt of it and the regret of it um, you know, drag behind me like a bag full of rocks.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what I have been learning to do is um, you know, very various ways.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: So one thing, I I've never been a journaler up until beginning to grow in this area.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so I will not everything, but significant ones where I recognize, boy, I I reacted, I didn't respond thoughtfully, I reacted out of being emotionally hijacked.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: I will process that.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: So for our listeners, if you heard Dan describe that out in really like the last 10 minutes or so that we've been talking, uh, we've already commended to you Ken Sandy's RW360.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: And Ken's material, I think, is helpful if that word um triggered uh well, triggered you.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe someone has used that on you as a cudgel.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he says emotional hijacking.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: I like that too.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think that actually everyone gets triggered.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: Once you begin to realize the pattern, you're like, oh, someone may have used that word as a cudgel against you, uh, but it happens to you.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the great things and why we commend the RW360 is Ken sort of describes for you how that happens physiologically and how fast things fire.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the people who study neuroscience say the things that wire together fire together.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: So if you had a series, a can a series of experiences as a child, that part of your brain fires very, very quickly, faster than your thinking process can catch up with it.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: And some of this maturing in Christ, trying to gain the mind of Christ, trying to live in a self-controlled way by the spirit is learning how to slow down so that when you get hijacked, when you get triggered, you've learned the habit of self-control to slow down, take a beat, step back, reflect, think about how you want to react instead of just reacting.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: We would commend Ken Steff to you for that, because this is good at theory level, but how do I actually practically get better at this?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: And Ken Steff is really, really helpful in that.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: I know you appreciate Ken Steph.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Pete Schizero has given some good tools for doing that.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: He's got a tool called the ladder of um differentiation.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's some other tools that I've learned.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, some some of it is just informal writing and thinking it through.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: I will certainly bring it before the Lord in prayer and lay it out before him and just seek to be still and listen and ask him to help me see how I, you know, using an image out of Jeremiah, I believe it is, I tried to drink or get my nourishment from a broken cistern rather than drinking from him the fountain of living water.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what was the broken cistern?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: What was the need that I was in that moment trying to satisfy?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's good.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: And that links, that passage, if you know the one from Jeremiah, that that links well with, so we've talked about that in Church Health Assessment or Vital Churches calls it a diagnostic, right?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: We're trying to look at what the idols of the church have.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: What are they drinking from that's not Jesus?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: Personally, we bow to idols, so do churches.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a parallel there because churches are just collections of people that are going to broken cisterns and they tend to pattern together based on um many times the unconscious idols that churches have that actually attract people to them, which is uh a difficult irony, uh, of course, because we're we're in the spot where we're trying to help them understand, hey, you're bound to an idol, not Jesus.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's not not good.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: So you talked about um Schizero and how his ladder differentiation is helpful and growing in that.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you were the one who pointed me towards um Peter Stenke.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: So uh how has he been helpful to you?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think he adds to the dialogue?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Stenke is particularly helpful on understanding, you know, what the physiological operations in our brain, you know, what is our amygdala doing when we are uh emotionally hijacked by something?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: And how does that slow down our ability to think something through?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: So he's able to take that, you know, very real physiology, that science, and explain it in an easily digestible way.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: That that really helped me in understanding that, okay, this is not just because I'm a deficient human being and I get easily emotionally hijacked.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: There is there's a physiological process uh happening in my brain when, for instance, somebody says something that I interpret as shaming.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And understanding that dynamic has helped me slow down that process.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it takes away those thoughts of this is happening to me because I'm I'm just not as good as other pastors.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I I mean Stanky explains a lot of things well, but that that was he was the first one that I really heard that in family systems from.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it was very helpful to me.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so recognize that that quick reaction has been recognized as flight, fight, or freeze.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: So when you're in a difficult circumstance where your anxiety goes up, most of us have one of those reactions that's more common than others, where we just won't be able to talk, and maybe because you can't talk, you shut down emotionally and relationally, or you come out swinging, or you run away, or you just can't even function.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: We each tend to have something similar to that that we move towards.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: And recognizing which of those you move towards is good in your own development because you can look back and reflect on it and go, wow, uh, there was another one of those instances.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how could it be different next time?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: Did you guys have you read um I'm I'm assuming you have John and Julie Gottman's uh Fight Right?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have not.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, I know I'm aware of it, but I have not read it.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of overlap here in um in the pauses.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and the you know, John Gottman, I believe, comes with this from a neurobiological perspective.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: I believe he's got his MD in uh neurobiology.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: I found his work to be very helpful as I'm running into these situations because I'm I'm a I am not a fighter.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm an Italian, I'm a lover, I'm an enabler.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, once again, once once the anxiety starts, man, I'm like, you know what?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, that sounds great.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: Let's do it that way.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: Cause I my values at risk right now, so I'm gonna do whatever I need to to make sure I'm safe, which means doing whatever you want.
• 23:55
  unknown: Okay.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm a I'm a fleer until you know I get pushed too far and then I turn into Mount Mount Vesuvius.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: A lot a lot of holy spirit work still needs to be done there.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: Thankfully, he's eternal.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but reading you know, reading uh fight right in particular, um, but several of the the other books that they've that they've put out and the research that they've done together has been extremely helpful in helping me to recognize what's going on in me physically, internally, emotionally, psychologically, where does it where is that coming from?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: And what can I do with that right now?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: And and where this comes to for me is we're talking about is birthed out of and drives towards relationship.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't remember if we were talking to um to Jack or to Dave, but one of the things that we said is even when we get into a fight, I think it was Jack that said it, even when we pick a fight with someone, what we're really asking is am I valuable to you?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: Do I matter to you?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: Is this is who I am and what I'm bringing in, is it worth your time?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: Am I worth your time right now?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: And uh going way back to the beginning of the season here, the dysfunction is that we were created by a triune God to live in a relationship, and that's been shattered.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's been shattered by so many things in so many different ways.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yet the thing that we're all longing for is to be able to ask this question and to have it answered back to us Am I okay?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: Are you gonna accept me?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: Am I valuable to you?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: And we answer it by running away, we answer it by blowing up and seeing who's gonna stick around and help us pick up the pieces.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: We we ask it by throwing all of our criticisms and our judgmentalism out there, and so far I'm only describing myself.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: And it all comes back to this fundamental question.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: Can you and I walk together?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: Can we be friends?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's like it's right at that kindergarten level.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: I it is easy for me in my mid-40s, looking at other people in their 30s and 40s and 60s and 70s, it is easy for me to forget that that's really the question that's pounding behind whatever this anxiety and this tension is, that you know, I have five minutes free in my schedule, and you're asking me to give up five hours to deal with what seems like a two-second problem.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: But really it's a it's an eternal and an amago day issue that's being correct right here is now also kind of throwing me onto the couch and saying, Lord, am I gonna trust you with us?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: Am I okay?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like, Lord, uh am I still okay with you?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: Do you still accept me?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: And and I want you to pull that thread zone, Dan.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: From a theological perspective, how do you tie these things in from the praxis and the theory to the fundamentally theological and Christian?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I'm not I wouldn't consider myself a deep theological thinker, so I I just go back to the very basics.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: This is about um loving God and loving other people, and you know, to to really think through what does it mean to love others as myself, to you know, to live out uh uh the great commandment uh and the second greatest commandment.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: This to me is part of loving people uh as Christ loves them.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I just make it really simple.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is as a pastor, I want to love people well.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be loving even when I have to do hard things with them.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I I just anchor it there.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: I I really anchor it there.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: There certainly is lots of other scripture that that in Proverbs and in Paul's writings that speaks to you know how we deal with people, intense situations, and that all certainly applies here, but to me, you can't get any more basic than this means, this is what it means to love my neighbor as myself.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: A question I wanted to ask specifically to you because of the you know, the way you dove into this, was there a time that you applied a principle from FST but watched it fail?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, just it it didn't work.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_03: It was something went wrong.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: Has that happened to you?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: And if so, what was your takeaway in that moment?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, honestly, there really hasn't been uh any any times where it hasn't worked.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that's that's kind of an I I'm not sure I would phrase it that way.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: There have been, there's been in my own inadequate and growing understanding of it, there certainly have been times where I thought I recognized the application of any one of the eight principles of of uh family systems theory, uh, that and and I and I did so improperly.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, one in particular does not come to mind, but um I I think it it certainly when when properly understood, when we discern properly, okay, here's what's going on here.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's overfunctioning and underfunctioning going on here, or there's triangulation going on here, or you know, this this there's some family of origin issues that are playing into why this person may be responding the way they are.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Those principles, when I properly discern that's what's going on, they they have always proved to be valid.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: For our listeners that are listening.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: And hearing that some of these authors that we're talking about are not believers, you might be wondering, you know, are we baptizing something here that's not helpful?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: We're trying to draw some theological parallels here for you and help you see it.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: Creech's work that we will link to will help you see that this is actually the way that Jesus lived, the way the Apostle Paul lived.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: We're trying to describe it.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's really what Bone was trying to do, was trying to describe what he could observe in human behavior.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: There is, and maybe Dan's grabbing it, there is a volume from some Australian authors, Bowen Family Systems Theory in Christian ministry, that is a helpful, you know, make sure you don't apply this wrong because it's not Christian, that I found very, very valuable.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so we'll link to that as well.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's a good um helpful from Jenny Brown's, you know, a uh worldwide, you know, expert in this in terms of application.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so well suited as an editor uh with Laura Arrington, I think I'm pronouncing that right, um, to uh help us see the the places where to to be careful as we apply this um in Christian ministry.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe as we move towards uh trying to wrap this a little bit, we uh uh have a pretty wide listenership.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm surprised when I run into people and they go, hey, I've really been enjoying that podcast.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: And we we wanted to do this season because we we use, as Vital Church does, we use some of the principles of family systems theory in our work with our training our transitional pastors and even helping them think through uh and diagnose uh what's going on in a church.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: I can imagine some of our listeners sort of going, well, okay, that's interesting, but I'm not sure it's for me, either personally or church-wise.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um how would you how would you maybe um woo them that this is this is really helpful?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this in answering that, I'd even go back to the comments you made about you know some family systems writers not being believers or or in in parts of the church that you know I wouldn't consider myself aligned with.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think family systems is is just a recognition of how God makes us.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: So in some ways, you know, all truth is God's truth.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is a good example of that.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Bowen, Murray Bowen, the originator of Bowen Family Systems Theory, who's not a believer as far as I know.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's he's not living anymore.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: He, you know, he just discovered how God has wired us both individually and relationally.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, it's it's truth at that level of understanding.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is how God made us.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I I've there are a number of writers who uh can have helped point me in scripture to different places where the the principles of family systems theory uh are clearly there, you know, either in Jesus' teaching or the apostles' teaching.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I I would say these dynamics are happening, either happening in your marital relationships or happening in your your your certainly in your church relationships, in your leadership relationships.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Why why would you not want to learn what maybe has been tripping you up or and tripping others around you up and finding ways to to respond?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: I would say overall, even the reading I've done from Bowen Family Systems Theory uh writers that aren't even necessarily believers, it has all made me more able to love my neighbor as myself, to love well, to to love without blaming and condemning, to be less about you know, interpreting other people's motivations and motives and uh and to be more intentional about responding to them, how I believe Christ would have me respond to them.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's not all of my sanctification, but it's been a significant part of my sanctification of growing to be more like Christ.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: So you've had a history, you've had a career in the military, in military law, in civilian law, in ministry as a pastor, and now as an intentional interim pastor.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: What's been the most surprising thing that you've experienced as you have worked with the principles that we've been discussing?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um how much how much um a church, any any any group of people, but particularly in a church, since we're talking about a church, how much of a church is like a family?
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: How much a church is is um a collection of families, and how we carry all you know the dynamics of our family of origin into church with us.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, in you're sitting in a elder board meeting and you know, uh one elder is reacting in a particular way to something that is very upsetting to him.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: He is he, like you, is likely functioning out of how he learned to do this in his family of origin.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that that truth has been, I see it more and more, but that has been really helpful.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: That slows me down and how I respond to him, that uh that gives me more understanding, that that makes me more self-reflective.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's probably the the biggest one.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: There's so many places in life where I've run into people, whether it's uh in an office, you know, in a corporation, in a church, in a school, in a community, where they'll throw out the phrase, we're a family here.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: And Matt, I will quote him as saying, um, there are you know plenty of churches that say, I just want to be a New Testament church, I just want to be a biblical church.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: And Matt will respond and say, Okay, which one of the dysfunctional churches in the New Testament would you like to be?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: And the things the same thing applies here.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_03: What kind of dysfunctional family are we?
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: When you say we're we are a family here, so why why would you not?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: Why would you not take the time to understand what the dynamics are, how they work together, and how you can have the the real family relationship that I think we are all uh aiming for, we're all longing for when whenever anyone says we're a family here, yeah.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: There's always dynamics, there's always there's always issues of trust, of relationship, of openness, integrity, vulnerability, communication that are constantly at play.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: And and um, you know, as you say, the more we can practice bringing our best to the table, the better the relationship can be for everyone.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: So, Pastor, if you're thinking about this and you're trying to figure out do I want to dive into this, my encouragement to you would be whatever is probably most frustrating you about your church, more than likely, these insights will help you with that.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I would say from my background.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Dan, it is my privilege to be your friend um and to call you friend.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for taking this time today, for sharing what you've learned and how you're growing.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: We love your humility and your insight.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so thanks for being with us on the Church for Know podcast.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm I'm very grateful for your friendship, Matt.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very grateful for flourish coaching.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, this has been a delight.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Dan, if people want to reach out to you, how could they do so?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they can reach out to me.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: The the easiest way.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: I have a I have a personal website, uh danwerthman.com.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that that gives them all my ministry contact information and a little bit about me.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even a phone, my phone number is on there as well.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: So danworthman.com is probably the easiest way to find me and reach out to me.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for your time, sir.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flourish Coaching.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Flourish exists to set ministry leaders free to be effective wherever God has called them.
• 38:23
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• 38:27
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• 38:30
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• 38:37
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• 38:40
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• 38:48
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• 38:52
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• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: A huge thank you to all our guests for making the time to share their stories with us.
• 39:08
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• 39:11
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• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: The Church Renewal Podcast was directed and produced by Jeremy Sefferati in association with Flourish Coaching, with the goal of equipping and encouraging your church to flourish wherever God has called you.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: Bye for now.