Latest / Therapy and Theology / S8 E1 | How To Escape the Victim Triangle for Good

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S8 E1 | How To Escape the Victim Triangle for Good · Therapy and Theology

• Note: Please note that the text below is an uncorrected transcript of the audio captured for this podcast. We pray the Lord uses these words to bless you as you seek Him! Hi, friends. Thanks for tuning in to the Therapy and Theology podcast by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shay Hill, and I'm so excited for you to hear another great conversation from Lysa TerKeurst, counselor Jim Cress, and doctor Joel Muddamalle. Each episode of this season is gonna help you get out of any dysfunctional dances and bravely honest about what you may be experiencing behind closed doors. Today, they're going to talk about a relational dynamic called the victim triangle. But before we jump in, I wanna let you know about a free resource by Lysa TerKeurst titled, trust is a track record, five scriptural truths to remember God's faithfulness. Track record, five scriptural truths to remember God's faithfulness. This resource will provide you with prayers to declare when you want to stay connected to God, guided journal prompts to help you work through your honest thoughts and struggles about trusting God, and so much more. Because we help you work through what you're walking through here on Therapy and Theology, I wanted to make sure you knew about this free resource that could help you do just that. So download it today using the link in our show notes. Now, let's jump in to hear from Lysa, Jim, and Joel. In today's episode, we are gonna unpack a relational dysfunction that we can all sometimes find ourselves in, the victim triangle. Now I want you to take great caution. If you are in a relationship with someone who hurt you, but they refuse to own what they did, admit they were wrong, or offer any kind of restitution. Now I know that this can be a common occurrence in relationships, but I want to make sure that we unpack information about the victim triangle here because it will help you recognize when you're caught in this pattern of dysfunction so that it doesn't become a typical framework for the relationships that we are in. And here's the thing about the victim triangle, I've been caught in it. Have you been caught in it? Definitely been caught. Maybe just even last night. Oh, perfect. Oh, wow. Fresh. Okay. Have you been caught in it, Jim? Still am from time to time. Okay. So I just want you to know that as we go through this episode, we're not pointing a finger and saying you need to pay attention to it. We are putting our arms around one another and saying this can be something that we all get caught in. Yeah. So the goal here is to find freedom from dysfunction. And if you are in a relationship with someone who you recognize there's this kind of toxic behavior, and I wanna be careful how to say toxic because sometimes I think that word is overused now. Mhmm. But it is toxic when you're in a relationship with someone and they are the perpetual victim. Because if they if they are the perpetual victim, that doesn't mean they haven't been victimized. They have been victimized at some point in their life. There is a legitimate wound there. But instead of moving on and getting healthy, they sit back in that role. And in order to perpetuate their victimhood, they have to have two other people, which that's how the triangle is formed. There's three points on the triangle. There's three people in the victim triangle. So there's the victim, and the victim always has to have someone who is caught in their own victimhood, has to have a rescuer and a perpetrator. Yeah. And so I think as we talk today, I really want us to unpack how to recognize this, and then even more importantly, what to do about it if you yourself are caught in one of these roles that you never signed up for Yeah. But you find you're sometime you're playing in a certain relationship. Okay. So, Jim, I know that the victim triangle was developed by a psychiatrist named Steven Cartman in 1968. Mhmm. And I know that you are really wise when it comes to this. You can spot it, and you can also help people better navigate it and possibly even step out of a role that they were never, that they never signed up to play. I love the second part of that. Joel and I were talking, off camera earlier this morning. It's, you know, I wanna help people not just diagnose or say this is where you are with any problem, but let's find a way to get out of that. So because it's sometimes it can happen in therapy or in coaching or in pastoral ministry that we're just circling the wagons about the problem, like, there's a way out, which clearly is involved in this. And I like how you've said a lot of times I I reckon most of the time, people are unaware that they're in it. Even if they don't have the name or the nomenclature of the victim triangle, sometimes called Cartman's triangle, then we we educate. We try to show them here is the dance. We've talked a lot about the dysfunctional dance. And once they see it, then they I want them to look at graciously what is their part and at times their payoff in any of the three points in the triangle. That's good. And while we may not recognize that we're caught in the victim triangle, what we will recognize is emotional exhaustion. Feeling like I I keep circling the same thing in this relationship. This other person is refusing to own any part of what we're walking through. Draw healthy boundaries and you decide not to be their rescuer, which is wise, because then they will easily flip you into being another perpetrator in their life. So let's talk about these three roles. Yeah. The victim, the rescuer, and the perpetrator. So as we've talked, many times, the person to use the term the victim, all of us have been victimized in life at some level. It's just true. What we don't want is to develop and certainly continue in an ongoing victim mentality. Yeah. So with that is the victim is someone who has been hurt, who has been wounded. And there is a continuum or a spectrum of hurt at maybe a smaller level. As I've said, often I could stomp my toe and that hurts or I could have my foot cut off and that really hurts. Right? So they've been victimized and in that what I found experientially, anecdotally, they haven't gone somewhere, often it would be therapy, to deal with their victimization. So what I don't work out, I will act out. And with that, they stay in that position and there's it's a false safety, but there's almost the safety of as this is the way I teach it. The victim will say ultimately in a victim mentality, require nothing of me. One of the signs of a victim is ongoing blame, which we believe is an attempt to discharge pain. So if someone's always blaming or taking ownership, any part of the three parts of the triangle, I own that, then I put the word but at the end of it. And that but usually negates it. Or sometimes they say, well, I own this for a while, and then they go right back to the victim mentality. They will be looking at, I collapse the triangle down in the end that it usually is victim perpetrator. Cartman called it persecutor, but many of us have up because it we've we've upgraded that to perpetrator. So that is really a dance mainly with victim and with perpetrator. And I think sometimes what I've seen is that I I can have great compassion Mhmm. For people who have been victimized. Sure. You know, I I have such a tender heart toward women who have been in, situations where they've been betrayed and divorced and all of that because you know my story. Mhmm. But I I do find that it's important at some point when we've been victimized Mhmm. To recognize even though we are not responsible for what happened to us, we are responsible to get the healing that we need so that we can continue to move on in life. But sometimes what happens with the victim mentality is we sit back and use it as an excuse Yeah. To never move forward Yeah. To never grow, to never change. And then everything that happens in life from then on, it's always someone else's fault. And so the victim mentality starts to give that person an excuse Mhmm. For not taking responsibility for other things that happen in their life because they're still spinning off and tying the original wounding that they had to every other bad thing that happens to them. And so it really is almost imprisoning that victim Good word. And making them stay stuck That's right. In the original hurt and pain and woundedness that they were in, and then preventing them from moving forward because they don't see sometimes their own need for healing. They don't see that they need to take responsibility for other things Yep. That are now happening, and it can it can really do a number. So if you are in a relationship with this person, you may feel this chaos of I'm either a hero to this person or I'm a zero to this person. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And if that's kind of that dysfunctional dance that you're in, you may be dealing with someone who is kind of stuck in that victim mentality. Yeah. I think that's so good, Lysa and Jim. You know, one of the things that I try to say often, in these episodes is that a theology that is not livable is unhelpful. And so there's a very real livable aspect of the victim reality. And, one of the things is that I think we have to, again, to step into that place of empathy and compassion, recognize that there is a legitimacy often to the woundedness. So there's a English word that we have that's called vulnerable, to be vulnerable. That's actually rooted in a Latin word called vulnerae and it's to be in a place where you're open to being wounded, you know. And I think that the first spot of this from a theological standpoint is to recognize the woundedness of humanity, you know. As we take a step back and just look at the created order that we live in a world that has been wounded by sin, by dark forces that are adamant to keep us away, from God and to keep us away from each other where we can actually find healing. Yeah. And I think the danger that we can have is that we start in a spot that is honest. You know? Like, it it's honest to say that I've been wounded by something. But then the deception and the danger, and you mentioned at least, is to then say that that woundedness becomes the place that I live out of, that that becomes the lens by which I'm now going to relate to all people in my life. And what actually ends up happening is you don't treat the wound. And if you don't treat the wound, you leave the wound open in order to be infected, to get worse, and you get to be a little bit sensitive in that area. I don't know if you guys have ever experienced a wound. I rolled my ankle the other day playing basketball. That's a wound. It's also my mortality, and there's a sensitivity to my ankle. You know? Like, if I bend it a certain way, it kinda just just hurts. And I think that that fear can be really challenging because then if we stay in that victim mentality, it's going to create chaos in terms of who that perceived per perpetrator is and what we long for in terms of rescue, which I know is gonna get you to the other two parts of the carbon triangle. I think that's really good, Joel. And, also, I wanna point out that sometimes, a victim who now has kinda sat in that victimization and they developed the victim mentality, it's not their the perpetrator doesn't always have to be the original person that wounded them. Mhmm. True. You see, the perpetrator is someone can be someone new in their life that comes in, and maybe they start out as the hero. Right. But the minute that the hero says no or I don't have that to give or draw some kind of a healthy boundary or starts to realize, like, woah, this is requiring more of me than what possibly is sustainable. Mhmm. You know, because they're constantly asking you to overextend your limitations because they're constantly they're they're they're constant emergencies, you know. And so then you say no, well, then you get flipped into being the perpetrator. That's right. And then sometimes when they have a new hero that steps in, then that hero eventually is gonna draw some boundaries. Yeah. Then they get flipped into the perpetrator role, and that perpetrator can then all of a sudden see their road back in to be the hero again, and it just becomes this very dysfunctional Cycle. Yeah. Dance and this very dysfunctional cycle. And our goal in talking about this is I don't want you to start walking around and going, oh, victim mentality, perpetrator, rescuer. You know? No. What we wanna do is we wanna have healthy conversations around this to say, we can all sometimes find ourselves caught in this dysfunction. And there's other kinds of dynamics that are at play. So we've talked about the victim. Now I wanna go one more one more thing about this, and I know that this was, a bit of a theological conversational, may we say debate yesterday as we're, you know, talking about it. But when you're saying this, I just think it's it's kind of important that, you know, I think what you just described is the situation that Adam and Eve find themselves in the Garden of Eden when God calls them to task in terms of, like, what happened, you know, which I think is also a fascinating detail, like, theologically how to engage in this. God doesn't step in with, here are all the things that you did wrong. He's like, you're you did this, this he's he he starts with a question, like like, what happened? Like, who told you that? You know? Okay. And what we find is And where are you? And where are you? Yeah. Like, it it's anyway, I think that's just so important. And then what's fascinating to me is the the shift of perspective that Adam and Eve fall into. And so yesterday, I was I'm just struggling. I was like, guys, what's another like, if victim is and victimization and victim mentality is a reality that people can slip into, what is the appropriate word for the ideal of humanity? Like, how should we be functioning where it doesn't throw the reality of being hurt and wounded and vulnerable out the window, but it doesn't leave us living there. And, Jim, I think you and Lysa both said agency. Well, that is the key word. Is the response is is the That's right. You know? And Adam and Eve, they shift from a role of taking agency and responsibility. In my view, this is just Joel. In my view, they take on the framework of of a victim mentality because now it becomes about blame shifting. Instead of saying, oh, this is what I did and this was my part, each one addressing it Yeah. It becomes, well, it was the woman that you gave me. You know, the woman was like, well, it was the serpent that was over here. And it's this, you know, it's it's consistently shifting responsibility. And so as we're thinking about, like, the victim triangle, I wanna put a biblical framework and a theological lens on it which says, hey, it's not that you have to reject the reality of being hurt, vulnerable, and being a victim. It's that there's a biblical principle that's at play here that is actually inviting you to regain your human agency that God has always wanted for you to live from, and that is a place of authentic responsibility. And I do think it's important to point out, like, Adam and Eve were manipulated Yeah. By the serpent. You know, Eve especially because she was in the conversation. Mhmm. So there there was a manipulation. So they were a victim of the enemy's manipulation. Yeah. And so they were not like, they weren't responsible for that that, you know, what the serpent said to them or what the serpent was doing to them and manipulating them. But they are responsible then of what they do next. Right. And so I think that's where I just wanna keep emphasizing this because if you are listening and you're like, woah. I've suffered a lot, and I've had a lot of hurt done to me. So did I cause that hurt? No. No. I wanna say that super clear. You're not responsible for the actions that another person did put on you that created the dynamic that made you a victim to whatever it is they did. But we do need to be responsible for how we move forward and what we do next and what we do now so that we don't constantly use that victim mentality as an excuse Yeah. That now everything else in life is just happening to me and other people are doing things to me because that removes your agency. That's right. That removes your ability to rise up and take responsibility for continuing to move on in life. So now let's go. We've talked about the victim. Thank you so much, Joel, for adding the theology in such a solid way. Now let's talk about the rescuer. Yeah. So there are some dynamics that are usually present in a rescuer. Mhmm. And again, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone because actually I could point my the fingers at me. Usually, a rescuer is some kind of person who really does want to help. They really do have a genuine heart of compassion, but there's also some dynamics at play where maybe they're a people pleaser, maybe they're codependent. I need you to be okay so I can feel okay. So how can we make you okay so that I can feel okay okay? Mhmm. You know? And there's there's some kind of something that they're getting a good feeling, some kind of reward for being for playing that rescuer. Yeah. So and it's not bad to help people. It's good to help people. But when you put on a cape and you go to unrealistic lengths to save this other person from maybe their bad choices, their unhealthy way of living, their irresponsibility, whatever it is, then it's really time to hit the pause button because we can be that person's friend. We can be their parent. We can be their daughter. We can be their wife, but we cannot be their savior. Yeah. And to some extent, sometimes when you're trying to rescue rather than help, it's important that we really sit down and define that there is a difference there and there's a line that can be crossed. Yeah. I wanna speak to just echo the agency part. What if you wanna think of just two categories of getting out of this thing, which we'll get to, victim and agent. So I was victimized, that's that's a temporary identity. That happened to me. I could explore that. But agents, short for agency is, where am I an agent of responsibility to move forward? In the triangle, typically, it's a little bit like the rescuer gets a little trophy, but that's the good part, or the rescuer gets a pass. And so, very subtly, who often is the most powerful person sometimes in the victim triangle is the rescuer. Because I actually know what's best best for you. I can see that you you you can handle this yourself. I will rescue you, and I will, as I do that, really sometimes do your own work Caring for you, it could be people pleasing and trauma. We talk about fawning, which is I wanna placate and then people please, all like that. And I say often I'm not here to say always the number one person you're trying to please when you're a people pleaser is yourself. So that's a gentle inward look. Yeah. Caveat also quickly which we've talked about off air. And that is this, these are categories to think in. They are not labels. Labels are for jars, not people. And so the idea of saying I wanna think in that versus weaponizing it, and we're just a victim. Well, you're my perpetrator, or you're just trying to rescue me. Think about categories to think in. With the rescuer, I want them to look often we've said if it's hysterical, it's historical. I do, as you all both know, so much story work with people back here. I mean, the New Testament was built on the Old Testament. Right? So much story. And so to look and say, did you rescue? I ask people to list the roles, and you know that for sure. Mhmm. The roles you played. And often, there's an historical reality or precedent that they were rescuing mom, dad, a rebellious, sibling or whoever else. So they got their cape and tights to be the superhero early on. It's it's harder for me to see whereas I help people for them to see what is the payoff for the rescuer. It's a clear payoff. Mhmm. That's really good. Okay. So if we are the rescuer Mhmm. Then what do we need to do? If we're like, oh, wow. I realize I have been trying to rescue my sibling my whole life. Mhmm. And I just keep doing this and keep doing this, and I am emotionally exhausted. Realize, work with a counselor, a coach, a good friend, journal and think and and and kind of ponder what is my payoff being the rescuer. If Jim says or Joel or Lysa say that maybe that I'm actually trying to rescue myself, What is my payoff? And be very gentle with yourself when you do that. What is my payoff? How historical is it? And what is the fear if I there's a good book, bestseller book called, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. What happens if I say no? Remember no is a complete sentence. And I say I'm not. Not I can't do it. It's the can't won't principle. I won't do this. I can't keep your kids this time. I'm I'm not. No. We're not having this conversation. I'm not having this conversation, and I believe two major things behind the rescuer there. I've been the rescuer many times. I've been all three in the triangle and so have you, so have we. It happens. It's grief and fear. Because if I say no and that other person moves on to another relationship, talks behind my back, blows me up on social media, so there is a real fear and a grief of that I may do what's right and healthy. Imagine what Jesus went through Yeah. With his boundaries. That I may lose this relationship if I so the payoff often is I won't lose the relationship. What can happen though negatively is you will sometimes lose the relationship and they'll talk behind your back when you were just having healthy boundaries. Is is it fair to also say that for the rescuer, there is an immediate payoff and there's a long a long term payoff? With dopamine in the brain and the serotonin and the good feelings of, wow, I'm okay and and we made it through this one. And now they're they're gonna back off and they're gonna be healthy for a while. The payoff often is immediate. So I think that the challenge on this one is sometimes the immediate payoff actually can, confuse the long term payoff that's necessary. Zero down. Right? And so I I just think about, Lysa and Jim, we do, a thing at literally across your from your house called Haven Place Retreats. And one of the messages that I give is Jesus, a life of love and limits. And I can't think of any person that would be the, perfect example of somebody who could be and Jesus is a % human, right, and a % God, but he doesn't lose his humanity in the incarnation, when he comes onto earth. And so, like, can you imagine just walking around healing people consistently? Like, people who are blind, they can see, people who are lame, they can walk, people who have, oppressed by dark spirits, they're being released. Like like, Jesus is just walking. He's, like, famous for these things. And then consistently throughout scripture, we find that Jesus is, like, yes. There's an immediate rescue that might momentarily be good for you, but just remember, there is a long term rescue that is necessary. There's a much greater evil that is present. The dark forces, sin and death. And so Jesus actually establishes limits with people who needed rescue Mhmm. But what he was being motivated by was the greater rescue that was necessary. And so Jesus said no a lot of times. And so I just think from a a principle standpoint, sometimes if you find yourself in that rescue position, let's be careful that we don't allow that initial dopamine hit of getting that instant payoff to cloud Yeah. Or misjudge what the long term rescue needs to be. And sometimes that long term rescue or benefit for that person would actually require us to step out of that dysfunctional cycle. Mhmm. And I think sometimes when we're hyperextending ourselves constantly to help another person, it comes at the cost of our own lack of self care, lack of self awareness Yep. Lack of self compassion. And we we then start getting into this thing, and I'm speaking as someone who has attempted to be a rescuer, especially a rescuer in a relationship where, like, for me, I was in a a relationship where there was someone else dealing with addictions, and I had so much compassion for this other person. I never wanted to see them hit rock bottom. Right. I I wanted them to change, but it was very painful for me to see them suffering the consequences of their choices. So I got into this mentality if I just give enough, serve enough, pray enough, like, hyper extend myself enough. And I would I would often say things like, nope. I'm just gonna do it this one more time. Right. I'm not gonna keep doing it. I'm just gonna do it one more time. I'm just gonna do it one more time. And somehow, I developed this thought that I really could change this other person. Mhmm. I really could fix this. You believed it. I really believed it. Mhmm. The problem is it started turning me into someone who I couldn't even recognize. Wow. You know? And I was so depleted in every area of my life that I became either a shell of a person who was just barely functioning myself, or I became angry with other people in my life because I was so hyperextended. Tirade because I was so emotionally depleted from giving everything plus more to this other person. Now I do wanna say with great compassion, if you were caught in that situation and you are afraid that if by starting to draw healthy boundaries and saying no to rescuing this person, if you fear, they will reject you, walk away from you, say ugly things about you, betray you, whatever it is, chances are you fear that because that is the type of person that will eventually betray you, walk away from you, reject you, talk behind your back. So I think it's really good to take an honest assessment and say, if I draw this healthy boundary, then this is what it will cost me. But am I eventually gonna pay that price anyways? Then I need to draw the healthy boundary so that I don't so deplete myself that I eventually become a shell of a person or someone reacting in angry ways with everyone else. Okay. Can I ask you a quick question? Yes, please do. And we it's so neat because off the, off the program here, off the podcast, this is what we really do. We spent all day yesterday, and we we just we just have conversations. We bring all of our issues, problems, and struggles. I mean, and it's really enjoyable. It's just we're like we're just we're not posing. I like it because I get free therapy, you know, and free theological wisdom. So it's it's really saying actually from both of you. So to back something up and think about it for just a moment, like a small moment, because I feared if your words if and I know a lot of people watching and and listening will will have this often with your kids. Oh, my word. What if they turn out blank or they married the wrong person or whatever? I feared if this person, significant person, you were in relationship were to quote your words, hit bottom, take just like take a breath and think, what would it back then have meant to you in that earlier moment where you were rescuing, thinking do I, do I not, what are the cost. But if I don't do blank and they hit bottom, then fill the blank, it would have meant it would have cost you what if they hit bottom? Yeah. It would have cost me emotional distress because my life was so closely connected to theirs. Right. Mhmm. It would have unleashed consequences on me that I didn't want. Very honest. And then and it would also have created in my mind an even bigger problem than the one that I was dealing with. You hear the logic in that? And people one thing I know about you and about Joel and me, but we're actually, most of the time, very gracious. And with our viewers and listeners, we're saying, hey. This is not what we're saying here. Hey. We're not being mean. We're not saying jump in and start labeling people. So with that, you've laid out the cost from Scott Peck, which we've said a million times. Mental health that we want, you want that solid mental health, is a commitment to reality at all cost. And once you didn't know you did unless you knew this Remember, everybody can go into that triangle all by oneself. Mhmm. So I heard it. I was listening very carefully that I was in there and I was rescuing. So what? Most of us have done that. Okay. Recognizing it is the key. And then you were trying to rescue and you realize that, this isn't going to work. And I feared even later if I put the boundaries in place, I would be the victim again. That person might go scorched dirt from my so now you've hit two spots. And then how were you the perpetrator? Cartman would say, persecute her fine very gently here. It's because in the end, if I continue to cosign or allow things to go on, when I realize I'm being harmed, I have very gently spoken actually victimized myself Mhmm. From what I tolerate persists. And you're not the only one. All three, everybody on this camera crew the idea of understanding for our viewers and listeners is we're all going to do this and realize there is a way out of this triangle called agency. That's the hope. And by the way, that fires lots of dopamine. Yeah. There's a way out. But recognizing where we are even when you're in the triangle by yourself. And that's exactly what happened Mhmm. To me. I was a rescuer for a long time, and then I decided to draw some healthy boundaries, take agency. And when I started saying no, immediately, I became the perpetrator. Mhmm. But guess what? I survived. Look at you. I did. You know? And you will too. Amen. And, you know, I can only be the perpetrator as long as I cosign with the victim that I'm actually a perpetrator. Yeah. When I stopped cosigning that I'm the bad guy here, then they can they can continue to believe that. That's right. But I have stepped out of the I have stepped out of the triangle. No doubt. And, they've moved on, and now they have other rescuers and perpetrators and the whole situation. Now who else has moved on? I'm trying to Me. Isn't that great? I have moved on. That's what I mean, that's the beauty of this. I love you just said it anecdotally, but it's like, and I also moved on. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so they may stay stuck. They may see you as the perpetrator forever and ever and always. They're right. But you don't have to cosign on and accept the title of that role. Yes. You can simply acknowledge that they are entitled to their thoughts, their feelings, their labeling, and you can step outside of that relationship and just say, it is no longer sustainable for me to play these unrealistic roles. Mhmm. And I just I don't receive that. And so will it potentially cost you some things to step outside of the triangle? Yes. But what you gain is so much more. And by the way, without I'm not gonna disclaim this. I'm being very spiritual. I'm being very biblical. Where I land at the end of this, of all the psychology we're talking about, which is fine, is my friend and friends and all of us, and whether it's with our kids or somebody else or wherever, you're not just standing, aside or backing up and saying, turning you over to yourself. That's true. You are doing that. But to get out of the way, and I tell so many people I work with, the Lord Jesus Christ is standing there saying, my child, you've served well. Yeah. I don't care whether you're in the triangle. Jesus says, in my opinion, he says, I need you to get out of the way. So literally, at least in my mind and soul, I speak it verbally. Jesus, I am turning this person literally, as far as I'm concerned, over to you versus turning them to the wilderness. I know there's passages Paul turns this one to the Satan for the destruction of the flesh, but it gives me great hope to say, lord, I've I've been in the way. I've done all I can for you and you alone are the one true rescuer. So I don't have to just give them off to somebody else and say, lord, they're in your hands. And it helps me even psychologically and experientially to take my hands off. Jesus, you got them. You know, I go out and try to grab them back in and go, sorry. Jesus, you've got them. And here's the hope too. If we're caught in this victim triangle, no matter what role we're in, if we recognize, like, we're listening today and think, wow, I think maybe I have been in a victim mentality where I have assigned someone the role to be my rescuer and then someone who is my perpetrator so I can blame them instead of taking responsibility for myself to move forward. No matter which of these three roles that you've been playing, the great hope here is that you can step out of the triangle the minute that you recognize, appropriately respond, and decide that I'm no longer gonna play that role. If you're in the victim role, you step out of the triangle by saying, you know what? It's time for me to rise up and take agency. I've been hurt. I don't have to live hurt. That's right. For the rescuer, I can help, but I cannot rescue. Or I you like it when I say, I will not. You need that. And then for the perpetrator, you know, words can come at you, but they don't have to define you. You don't have to receive them, take them in, and let it mess with your mental Yeah. Wherewithal to say that you're a bad person. No. You're a good person who maybe for a season tried to do something that you were never equipped to do. Yeah. And so the good news is there's great hope. The other side of the great hope here is that I have also been in a victim triangle before where I was caught between playing the rescuer and the perpetrator. Mhmm. And when I stopped playing those roles, guess what? The relationship didn't go by the wayside. It wasn't destroyed. Mhmm. Eventually, the relationship actually got better. Yeah. And in several of those relationships right now, they're stronger and healthier than they've ever been. And I think a big reason is because I stopped playing the role of a rescuer and stopped cosigning on that I was a perpetrator and got out of that dysfunctional dance. And guess what? Eventually, the victim had moments of self realization because they got some help that they needed. And often, that's really where we probably need to land the plane today. Often Love it. In order to have self awareness, you get need you need to have someone who can step in, a third party, a safe friend, a counselor, somebody that can step in and ask them, do you see me in any three of these roles? And let them help create within you some self awareness so then you can take agency, and all hope is not lost. Sometimes the relationships continue and they thrive and they get healthy, and that really is the goal for us to be in healthy relationships. Amen. Amen. Amen to the tenth power. By the way, compliment, I noticed you practice so well and that is a great place to land this. You were in the I, not the we. People say, we're not having this conversation. Uh-uh. I'm not. Or I'm no longer doing the dance. Some people, they hear that, and they just throw away line. That was one of the most powerful landing spots. I'm not playing this role anymore. Yeah. Well, thanks, Jim. It gives me great hope that maybe I really am getting healthier and stronger and taking agency just like we're encouraging you to do. Thank you so much for joining us today. Lysa, Jim, and Joel, thank you so much for today's conversation. Friend, after listening, there's a lot you can do with what you heard today. First, I would encourage you to share this episode with a friend who needs to hear it. Send them the link to listen, then maybe go grab coffee and talk it over together. Or like I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, you might find yourself in a really difficult place of feeling distant from God, questioning if his plans for you are really good, or maybe something else. If that's you, I want you to know that we deeply understand, but we also want to help. That's why I wanna remind you about Lysa TerKeurst free resource titled, Trust is a Track Record, five Scriptural Truths to Remember God's Faithfulness. Download it today using the link in our show notes. That's all for today, friends. Thank you so much for tuning in to Therapy and Theology. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we believe if you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.