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Why Do I Keep Attracting Unavailable Men? · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:09
  Speaker A: Welcome to Gaming Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gaiman's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I am your host, Matt Lansadel, and joining me today is Lanae Haloum.
• 0:25
  Speaker B: Hi, Matt.
• 0:26
  Speaker C: Hi.
• 0:27
  Speaker A: Welcome. It's good to have you here.
• 0:29
  Speaker B: Yeah, I'm very excited to be here too.
• 0:31
  Speaker A: We're unpacking a very important topic we're going to be talking about. Why do I keep attracting unavailable men? Not necessarily me as in the eye, although I do at times, but. Yeah, why. Why do we. Why do we attract unavailable men? This is what we're going to be unpacking today. And Lonnie is a queer relationship coach and rapid transformational therapy practitioner who. Who helps LGBTQ individuals break free from painful cycles like chasing emotionally unavailable partners, feeling too much or not enough, self sabotage, fear of abandonment, and emotional blocks in love. Through deep subconscious work and compassionate coaching, Lana empowers people to build safe, fulfilling relationships, starting with the one they have with themselves. So this is perfect. I'm glad. I've been wanting, probably almost the last two years, wanting to attract somebody to have this conversation with. And I've brought it up several times on the podcast, so it's finally here. We get to have this conversation and I'm looking, looking very forward to it. So what we want you, the listener, to get out of today's episode is just a deeper understanding of your relationship patterns and why you might be attracting unavailable men. Let's. Let's answer that. Why? Hopefully by the end of this episode, you'll know why. And then we also want to share with you tips on what you can do if this is you and you, this is part of your relationship patterning. We want to share with you tips on how you can move through this so you can start to find more availability with probably within yourself and within other people. So. All right, well, why don't we start a bit about you? So do you want to maybe just share a little bit about, you know, how you got into this work and why this type of work inspires you?
• 2:11
  Speaker B: So actually, like, so many events led me to get into this kind of field. So, like, I, I originally come from Syria, so, you know, like, the culture there is not accepting at all. And so, yeah, so, like, I grew up having this kind of, like, double identity, so it was a lot of, like, yeah, suppression and, yeah, like, emotional unavailability towards myself, basically. And, yeah, then, like, when I started dating later on when I, like, accepted myself And I came out and I started dating. I. I realized I was always just running after, like, unavailable men for so long. And like, not only that, like, of course sometimes it happens, you know, like you're attracted to somebody who's unavailable, but the trick is to either, like, be aware of that and then know that, okay, this is not good for you, and then step back and like, basically lose interest when you realize somebody's unavailable. But for me, when I started dating, like, if I see somebody unavailable, then I am more interested. I'm like, oh, I can make them available. That was running in the background.
• 3:28
  Speaker A: Yeah, I get that for sure.
• 3:30
  Speaker B: Yeah. So it was. Yeah, so it was like a series of that. And then I ended up in my relationship. My relationship actually, surprisingly, was not with an unavailable person, but it was very intense that a lot of my insecurities surfaced. And after the breakup, it was short but intense. And after, like, during the breakup time, I was completely destroyed and completely shattered. And then I ended up. I felt that it was not really just about the person, like just about my ex. I realized it was so much deeper than that, the way I was, I reacted to the breakup, even the way I was destroyed. And that's when I started exploring what's their. These insecurities that came up during the relationship and the things that I uncovered about myself, they were like, shocking. And that's how I got into this whole therapy thing. And then after I witnessed the effect of certain types of therapy that works mainly with a subconscious mind, I was like, oh, now I know my true calling. And this is what I want to do because I want to help other people, especially queer people, to really, like, uncover the deep seated beliefs and traumas that they have, like growing up and all the suppression that we face in our childhood and teenage life, romantically and emotionally. And yeah, I want to help our community, basically.
• 4:56
  Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. I love that your. Your purpose is very similar to mine. It sounds like you have turned your pain into your purpose and you're now guiding people on a path that you had struggled on. So I relate to that, that tremendously. This topic has been an issue for me my whole life. Truly. It's. I have struggled with this. I'm very open on the podcast about, you know, having a father who tends to be more lean towards and avoidant in his attachment style. He left when I was younger, so I carried this belief that I would one day be able to attain or reconcile this. And I've attracted a lot of avoidant, we'll say avoidant. Attached, avoidantly attached men. And I tend to lean more into the anxious avoidant blend, a disorganized attachment style. So while there's a part of me that wants love and intimacy, when it comes too close, I freak out.
• 5:51
  Speaker C: Right?
• 5:52
  Speaker A: So for me, I was, I was playing out, you know, what I would describe as like a relationship shadow.
• 5:57
  Speaker C: Right.
• 5:57
  Speaker A: I was unavailable to myself in one aspect of my attachment style and that was the part of me that was attracting unavailable people to, in hopes of trying to reconcile or heal that, you know, the origin relationship with my father. So, so yeah, this, this topic really has created. There's been so much struggle around this for me in my life and I've now made it, you know, to secure attachment. And I'm now actually at this point where I'm starting to find secure people attractive. And you know, which is, you know, that's a huge sign I think for people that have insecure attachment and they're, they're moving towards greater security. I think when you start to see somebody who is available and can meet up, meet your, your relational needs, respects boundaries, you know, they're good at talking about emotions with you. When those sorts of things start becoming attractive, I think that's a sign that a great deal of healing is taking place. And so it's, it's really important just to even set the context for this conversation. When we're talking a lot about this, we're talking about attachment style. And for those of you who don't know much about attachment style, we've done lots of episodes on them. So avoidant attachment is going to be when somebody needs a lot of space in relationships, they have a hard time moving towards intimacy. Their fear is intimacy.
• 7:13
  Speaker C: Right?
• 7:13
  Speaker A: So they're on one end of the spectrum and then on this other side of the spectrum you're going to have anxious. So people that have anxious attachment are really good with closeness, but they tend to be more avoidant to themselves. Right. Their fear, at least the conscious fear, is going to be a fear of abandonment. And then you have people within the disorganization which they ping pong between those two essentially. And I just think it's important to note that because there's been a lot of studies done and one specific one an Israeli study was done about, and I think something like 60% all attach the, the link to it, but like 60% of, of gay men in the study were a dismissive avoidant essentially. So there's a high probability of, of us as gay men that we're going to come up against either other or avoidant people. And if you're somebody that identifies with being on the anxious side of the spectrum, you're highly likely going to attract somebody with a dismissive avoidant attachment. It just tends to be how the wounding, you know, comes together for both parties. So I just wanted to preface with that because really it's going to be a part, a part of this conversation to touch on attachment styles. So.
• 8:22
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Like for me, I was always been. I mean, I still am, but working on it. And it's getting better, of course with time, like the anxious. On the anxious side. So. So yeah, I can totally relate to what you're saying. And yeah, that's why, like, you kind of manifest your like worst fear. You manifest somebody who doesn't want to give you the attention that you crazily seek, basically.
• 8:53
  Speaker A: Yeah. How did that show up for you in your relationships? Like when. If you came in with more of an anxious attachment, how did that show up for you?
• 9:02
  Speaker B: Yeah, for me, like, it was like. Because it was like multiple insecurities acting up at the same time. So it was, yeah, like the fear of losing this person and makes me like really grab onto them, like super tight. And then I was, at the same time, I didn't believe that I deserve somebody as good as like, somebody, you know, one of my, like, partners. And then I would then do self sabotage without really noticing. Like I was completely unaware that what I was doing was self sabotage. So like I would really try, like hyper focus on the negative aspects of the person and really try to change the person, you know, like, try to be like, oh, you have to change now. Because for me, anything that can go wrong is a threat that they're going to like, their relationship is going to be over. So that's how it was. And I wasn't aware of it until after the breakup. And I did a lot of subconscious work on myself and then realized it's all comes back from, you know, the formative years of your life. Like what beliefs you have about yourself, your environment. Yeah, like your male role models, in this case, all of that. It really contributes to the insecurities that you have and your attachment style as well.
• 10:25
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's huge. And I think a lot of the people that are going to be watching this are going to have an anxious attachment style because avoidant people tend not to attract other avoidant people. So they're not going to be searching this on YouTube. So we're the audience. Hello audience. You're probably likely on the anxious spectrum and I have an anxious side of my attachment as well. So I think you and I both understand this. And I look at anxious people, they tend to have two fears, one conscious, one unconscious or subconscious. The conscious is going to be the fear of abandonment and it's the one that they relate to and that they're able to understand. So there's fear in the attached spell. I'm going to lose this person, so I have to grab on tight. So they proximity seek. And then the unconscious or the subconscious fear is a fear of intimacy. Because I think a lot of anxious people carry us a deep seated belief that they're not worthy.
• 11:14
  Speaker C: Right.
• 11:14
  Speaker A: They had inconsistent parenting growing up. So there is this, there's this fear of my needs aren't going to be met. I'm not worthy of getting my needs met. And I think that is the fear, the fear of intimacy is the one that is subconsciously attracting unavailable or avoidant men.
• 11:30
  Speaker C: Right.
• 11:30
  Speaker A: Because there's a part that it's like, and I always ask this whenever I'm doing work with anxious people. I'm like, what would happen if you know, this person that you're seeking so, so desperately were to turn to you and be like, I'm ready, like let's fully be in love. And I'm, I'm ready to be here. And they're present and they're able to look at you and see your fears and see your insecurities. Most anxious people would be like, you know, they would kind of be in like a fear state, like, oh shoot, now there's a possibility of them seeing my shortcomings or seeing why that I don't feel worthy or that I'm scared in certain aspects. So I do think that there's a, you know, it's, there's always two sides, I think, one conscious, one subconscious when it comes to a attachment styles. And you know, obviously the avoidant person would be inverted to that.
• 12:17
  Speaker C: Right?
• 12:17
  Speaker A: So they're exactly conscious. Fear would be intimacy. But I really do think that they're an avoidant person's unconscious or subconscious fear is going to be abandonment.
• 12:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And like we cannot forget that like growing up having no like emotional role models when it comes to, you know, like the relationship between two men or two women or you know, any kind of queer relationship. I mean most of us, we didn't have that growing up. And then we try to adopt like heteronormative dynamics and that really kind of mess up our minds and like how we perceive a relationship should be. And at the same time not having this role model, not able to relate to it, like to relate to something that we feel identified as, that makes this like it makes actually most of us emotionally stunted because we also growing up like in our teenage life and so on, we don't explore our sexualities enough. We don't explore our emotions like how we're feeling. We try to suppress anything that comes along. Like I'm talking of course not everybody, but for most of us. And that kind of like when we start dating, let's say on average like when we're 20, then it's like, it's kind of like our emotional age is maybe like 10 or 11, so we are like 10 years behind. And then we try to find this amazing relationship, but we are like 10 years old emotionally. And then we're trying to navigate, but there's nobody to teach us how to do it. We didn't have role models growing up. And there's no, like most of us don't recognize that we need therapy or we need help or support. And even the friends that we come out to at the beginning, most of the time it's straight friends and they had more or less a normal emotional upbringing and that makes like they cannot help us, they cannot really support us in that. So they wouldn't understand what we're going through. And they were just going to see us as this like crazy dating stories that we have with all these like crazy hookups that we have and all the sex, like the wild sex life that we, most of us go through. So that really affects how we attract love and how also our attachment style as well.
• 14:43
  Speaker A: Yeah. Which makes total sense. If we're carrying these deep fears or this concealing energy, we have to conceal ourselves, conceal that we're gay. And once we can conceal one big part of who we are, then we're going to be concealing all the stuff that's peripheral to that.
• 14:58
  Speaker C: Right.
• 14:59
  Speaker A: Our emotions, our authenticity, these sorts of things. So I do think that that plays into this in a huge way. Yeah. When it comes to being emotionally stunted, I totally agree with you. I would say it's around a 10 year mark for a lot of us. And I think, you know, you look at a gay man who's in his 40s who is more like a 30 year old.
• 15:18
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's so true.
• 15:19
  Speaker A: 30S is more like a 20 year old. And I think. But there is one thing that I will say is that when I do therapy with clients, I notice that because of the deep suffering that we go through as Gay men, there's a consciousness that once we start to tap into it, it's already ready to expand because suffering creates expansion in consciousness, in my opinion. There has to be the element of starting to look at the things that are creating the suffering. That's what will expand it even further. So I do find that gay and queer people tend to move quicker along the healing continuum than, say, heterosexual clients that I work with. And I think it's because we understand suffering. We have. There's just something about it. I don't know. There's a level of consciousness within queer people that I find different. I'm not going to say it's better or worse. It's just different. And I think it is attributed to our suffering and perhaps even our sense of community that we have. Like, because there is a fairly strong sense of community within gay culture. You know, it might not be healthy, the healthiest community, but there is still community. And. And we have the mirror of one another constantly. So we see ourselves, right? We see the things that we don't like about being gay in each other, and we have to reconcile that. So, yeah, it's an interesting. It's an interesting conversation. We could probably do a whole episode just on. On developmental delays of gay men, but then also, you know, the. The other side to that, too.
• 16:42
  Speaker B: Exactly. And just commenting on, like, a theory of mine, why we are like, the queer community or the gay community is like, as you said, we move faster on the healing track. I think it's because growing up, having all these, whether it's a double identity or suppressing this part of yourself and so on, I feel like, in a way it's easier to. Or not easier, but we're more trained to really use the different functionalities of our brain because, you know, when we. When you have to block this side of you, you're also, like, doing like you're wiring your mind in a very different way. And the ability to actually, like, if I just look at myself when I was growing up, I was like, when I look back, I get scared, actually. Like, how I was able to do it perfectly, that, like, blocking this whole aspect of my life in my head, like, and not only to others, but also to myself. Like, I would just not really admit it to myself. And I'm fully, like, I fully. I used to fully believe that, yeah, I am into women. And even though in the bedroom, you know, sexy time happening, I am just, like, looking at, like, gay porn or gay or men or men pictures and so on. And then before and after for me, this is like completely locked into my, my mind. And just like looking back and how I was able to really separate this section inside of my head without having any effect on any other aspect of my life. And truly believing it when I'm in my day to day life, it just. Yeah, maybe this is a theory that like, we're more able to use the different functionalities of our brain and that makes it easier for us to move on the like, healing path.
• 18:38
  Speaker A: Yeah. It's amazing when you think about denial that as human beings we can lie to ourselves and believe it. And that's just the power of the human ego in its fundamental purpose, which is self preservation.
• 18:50
  Speaker C: Right.
• 18:51
  Speaker A: And how we can, we can trick ourselves. It's crazy when you think about it. It's kind of scary because. So I do think part of the healing work, you know, I always say in my, in my practice, 80% of the work is awareness of what needs to be worked on.
• 19:05
  Speaker C: Right.
• 19:06
  Speaker A: And then 20% is inspired action once you know what needs to be worked on. And I do think that what we're doing, when we're doing that is we're confronting the ego and getting really honest with ourselves around our ego and the structure that it's created to protect us from feeling our pain or from seeing ourselves as flawed or whatever it might be. And I do think that lends itself to this conversation tremendously because I think that when we are working with the subconscious, we're working with almost like a, like dualism.
• 19:34
  Speaker C: Right.
• 19:35
  Speaker A: One part of us wanting and desiring and one part of us fearing. So what stories have we created around why we're attracting unavailable people? To protect us from having to see our own wounds around. Fears of intimacy, not feeling good enough, low self worth, these sorts of things. So those things need to be revealed before we can move to the next step, which is to start to heal them.
• 19:56
  Speaker C: Right.
• 19:57
  Speaker A: We need to be able to say, yeah, I have a fear of intimacy, even though I keep it, you know, so desperately want love, but yet there's a part of me that is tremendously scared of having it.
• 20:07
  Speaker B: Yeah. So I, I always like, view the subconscious mind as how the whole dynamics between our subconscious and conscious mind is basically, we are the viewers of our own show. So like when you're watching a movie, you're just watching what's happening, like on the conscious level, let's say. And then we don't know what's, what happened backstage. We don't know anything about that. Or we can, we can never know when we're watching a movie. So it's like that we are the viewers of our own show, basically.
• 20:40
  Speaker A: Yeah, I like that. I like that. And you know, the subconscious is really, you know, from my perspective and my training, it's. It's in charge of around 95% of us as human beings. It drives emotion and it drives behavior. And those are. So I always, you know, describe it as we have our subconscious comfort zone and that's the things that we're likely not aware of, but it's the things that emotions are driving us towards and our behaviors are taking us towards to keep us in that comfort zone so we don't have to feel whatever triggers or activations or intense emotions, fears, these sorts of things. And I think the subconscious comfort zone for people that struggle with withdrawing in, you know, emotionally unavailable people, I think would probably be just this fear of intimacy. I think it would be keep people at an arm's length because you don't want them to see that you feel unworthy. Or I think the fear of abandonment is a huge thing that drives and keeps us in our. In our comfort zone, our subconscious comfort zone. It's like, don't put yourself out there. Don't be too vulnerable, because then people are going to abandon you. They're going to leave you. Exactly the big one, I think, because the fear of abandonment shows up oftentimes when people start thinking about the fear of abandonment, they think about, oh, my father had to leave and I never saw him again. But that's not really like, that's a piece of it. It can be that you were emotionally neglected as a child, so your parents were there physically and, but they didn't take time to understand you and you felt abandoned, you felt left within your own experience without your parents taking an interest in you. That's a significant trauma for people. And I think that that inconsistency or that type of neglect in childhood can lend itself to really seeing love and intimacy is unsafe.
• 22:33
  Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. And like behind the fear of intimacy, it can be like so many reasons why we are afraid of intimacy. It can be self worthiness. It can be a trauma. It can be, yeah, can be like so many things we are unaware of. And so it's always like I always tell my clients, like, first awareness. And then once you know, okay, this is. Needs to be worked on, awareness. After awareness comes, there should come the subconscious work basically because on a conscious level, no matter how, of course, some benefits can work and it can work, but over a long time, but you always really need to know the root cause of what's happening.
• 23:16
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good maybe segue. Let's. Because we've been dropping the subconscious bomb a lot. I think maybe let's talk a bit about what it is because some people might not understand. So what is the subconscious and how does it come into play when talking about attracting unavailable men?
• 23:32
  Speaker B: Yeah, so the subconscious mind is basically our, like everything that we are unaware of. Mainly our belief system lies there. And it comes like we, we, we develop our belief system in our formative years. Actually, most of our belief system forms between the ages of like from zero basically until five years old. So the first five years of our lives are like the main, the, our main set of beliefs is like absorbed from that time. And by absorbed I mean because as a kid we don't have the conscious mind yet or as babies, so we don't have this filtration system. So everything we see, everything we hear, everything we experience, we just like absorb it as a sponge. And without any filtration, without any analysis, we just take it as it is, face value. So even a joke can create a trauma for a baby or a toddler. And we're unaware of. We can just be saying like, oh, you're being stupid and just laugh. And then they would take it forever as and they may, they would form a belief that they're actually stupid. So, yeah, so that's basically the subconscious mind is like the set of beliefs and the set of things that are ongoing that we are unaware of. Consciously.
• 24:53
  Speaker A: Yeah. And it sounds like it's driving a lot of our decision making. And so the part that's saying, why do I keep attracting unavailable men? That is more the conscious, that 5%, that's like the part that's able to see this keeps happening. I'm able to see this relationship pattern, but I'm only seeing the 5% surface. It's like the iceberg. What's above and showing that's the 5%. And what's below the 95% is all the stuff that is actually making us a vibrational match to attracting unavailable men.
• 25:27
  Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. So the 5% awareness is just enough to know there's something that needs to be worked on. The 95%. Like maybe some people, of course they will have an idea. Like if they, they were actually abandoned by their. One of their parents or something, they might have an idea. But to fully understand when it all started and how and really be able to spot the exact moment with the exact feelings and thoughts and everything around it, that's Only when you really tap into the subconscious mind and only then a full understanding of the root cause can happen. And without 100% full understanding of what happened or like the root cause, it's almost impossible. I mean, it is possible, but it's almost impossible that like we're able to actually let it go and change the narrative. So it's only when we gain this full understanding that we can be sure that, okay, we have the ability now to let it go, transform our belief system and then move forward in our lives and actually change the narrative. Then.
• 26:38
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's huge. I want to maybe just share a little story because I went through this about a year ago in using emdr. So that was how, that's how I worked with subconscious. It's been the most effective for me. So for EMDR is a bilateral stimulation using. For me it was hand buzzers. And my psychologist was kind of walking me through this process of being able to go back, go back, go back. And I ended up meeting this because my complaint was going in and that I was having, I kept attracting unavailable men and I had, I had awareness of my, of my disorganized attachment, but I had never actually met that young part that felt. What it was, was disgusting. I felt disgusting. I met disgust for myself because of being gay. And it was a very young, young feeling and it was the root of my internalized homophobia. It was, I actually got to the very root of it and I was able to pluck it and pull it and then major, major shifts started happening. But it was really interesting because I did not think it was going to be that. I did not think it was going to be that. But I remember having these feelings of just complete disgust for myself when I would be, you know, thinking or jerking off to gay porn or whatever. It would be this like self loathing feeling. And it was that feeling that. And I remember when I was working through the, the buzzers were going and I was working through it and my face went really flush and got hot and it was shame, it was shame that was coming through and that was the subconscious part of me that was telling me that I'm not worthy, I'm gross, I'm whatever. And that was what was repelling people from being able, like mostly secure people from coming into my spheres because I had this part of me that when somebody would get too close, I would fear them seeing the disgusting parts of me. So I would only be messing around with avoidant men because they don't get too close, right? So it's this, you know, the subconscious. For me, that's how I was able to see like, oh, crap. So I had to start doing a lot of deep self compassion work and self acceptance work and these sorts of things.
• 28:44
  Speaker B: That sounds very powerful, like, and very. It was very unexpected for you, like what you uncovered, right?
• 28:50
  Speaker A: Yeah. And that's the subconscious for me is you have to get still. I had to get really still and I had to actually be open to letting go of my stories because my stories were protective and my subconscious was. That's why I created the stories, to protect me from seeing behind the veil. But during that process, I felt safe to let that those protector parts go, the stories go. And then boom, this memory came through or this feeling in my body of being disgusting. And it was such a huge shift for me. Like, it was very powerful.
• 29:21
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, like the main way to actually like tap into the subconscious mind is like basically there are different ways and methods and everything. But the main purpose is to really relax the mind, to be able to really regress back to the past. Because whenever we're thinking and our conscious mind is very active, then it's almost impossible to really access the subconscious mind. Because yeah, like if you think about it as a coffee filter, it's like our conscious mind is the filter. And the main goal is to really relax this conscious level so that we can go into the next level. Which is. Which is the subconsciousness.
• 30:03
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's powerful. I'm curious for you, like, did you use a certain modality or like what was maybe a bit of your experience like in working with your own subconscious?
• 30:13
  Speaker B: Yeah, so I basically used like, I. I was a client first as a, like for the rapid transformational therapy, which is like partially based on hypnotherapy and the other part is like its own tools how to work with the subconscious mind and navigate through it. So for me, like when I did these sessions, it was like actually many things that contributed to my attachment style and why I'm attracting unavailable men. So for me, it was like one of the core memories that I went back to and I. It was completely gone from my conscious mind. And it just like popped in my mind during the session. It was like my dad, when I was really little, I was like, I think four or something, four years old. He had to go for three years abroad, like for his studies. And for me, like I came back, I went back to this memory where I was at the airport and saying goodbye to him. And for me as a kid back then, it felt like yeah, he's, he's going to go forever. You know, like, you don't really think, like, even if your mom or whatever they tell you, like, oh, he's coming back, we're going to see him in like X month or X years. But as a kid, like we don't really comprehend the concept of time yet. So for us, like what happens in that moment is like, we think it's going to be the situation forever. So for me that was the point. One of the points where I was, I felt abandoned basically. And of course like at that time, like the Internet was not as developed and everything, so communication was not easy. So communication with my dad was not really great back then. So that's why it also really kind of added up that my dad is not there for me. My dad is unavailable to me, even though it was not fully his fault. But it can also be the case that sometimes it's not the parents fault, it's just the situational fault. And then also, yeah, being gay, basically, I also actually came across that in my sessions that I remembered that this like also as you said, like this really discussed feeling. And I remembered things that I completely blocked from the past that like when I was in school, like in primary school or later, even later in my teenage life, whenever I have like an exam period then like I wouldn't masturbate because I feel like, oh, if I masturbate now, I'm going to be punished and I'm going to fail my, like karma is going to punish me, I'm going to fail my exams, I'm not going to do well. So I would like stop masturbating because I feel like that was, I was doing something wrong. And yeah, I had this, all this shame and disgust feeling and all of that. So it was, yeah, it was very similar to what you described. In addition to the whole thing with my dad and everything.
• 33:17
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's tough. I want to just, yeah like really hold what you just shared in tenderness because there's a lot of stuff there and it's like, yeah, it makes me think of your like, you know, just this young you in this little nervous system and like having to carry all that. That's a lot of weight to carry.
• 33:33
  Speaker C: Right.
• 33:34
  Speaker A: And I think it's a very common story with, with gay, gay men that our little inner gay little boys are still scared and still hurting and still feel abandoned and still feel shame and these sorts of things. And it's. Those parts don't just evaporate. They. They have to be looked at in order for our healing to happen. And so, yeah, congratulations for doing this work and moving through that stuff because I know it's not easy.
• 34:00
  Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. And you too. And actually now just remembering something that I actually didn't even know the word gay until I was like 15, like all the time before that I thought, oh, there's something wrong with me. I'm the only one like that in this whole world. And only when I was like around 15 or 16, I cannot remember very well then I was like, somebody mentioned the word gay and I was like, what is that? And then that's when I was like, oh, wow. So it is a thing. But yeah, but of course the way it was also represented to me was like, oh yeah, like these are bad people and disgusting people and so on. So even though I knew the concept when I was 15 or 16, but I knew it also in a negative, like through a negative lens, which also didn't help in my teenage life, of course.
• 34:54
  Speaker A: Yeah. I love that you understood the concept of karma when you were young. It's like if I masturbate, I won't fail my right. Like it's, I get it.
• 35:05
  Speaker C: Right.
• 35:05
  Speaker A: And it's like that's part of it, I think is we learn how to become more rigid and controlling and you know, these sorts of things, they're protector, they're protector parts from being exposed or having to feel the shame or whatever it might be. So that might be like what you were talking about earlier is how gay men have this ability to negotiate with certain things. So we have a very probably astute, like intelligence.
• 35:27
  Speaker C: Right.
• 35:27
  Speaker A: Maybe not emotional intelligence, but intelligence of learning how to work with ourselves to try and protect ourselves from feeling things. And I do see this, actually, I should say this, you know, in my private practice I see a lot of, a lot of gay men with very, very strong protector parts. So it's hard to break through with, with some clients like that because their protectors are so, so strong. So there's a, there's a double edged sword to it. Yes, we protect ourselves and it's adaptive so we don't have to feel the pain. But when we do go into therapy and start working with these parts within ourselves, I find that gay men tend to have really strong parts that you have to. It takes a lot of time essentially. It's like time and just being very gentle and these sorts of things to help those parts start to let go a little bit.
• 36:14
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, the first step to healing is basically just first the willingness to to really go through the healing process, no matter how it takes and how long it takes, like, not even believing in it, but just the willingness, basically, because a lot of. A lot of people, they go to therapy and they're, like, skeptical, or they're like, oh, no, nothing is going to save me, or nothing is going to work on me. They come with this mindset. But just the willingness to be, like, there and go through the process would be definitely helpful.
• 36:48
  Speaker A: You and I both have a thread of abandonment being part of our story. And I think that's really important because, like, our audience today is going to be people more on the anxious spectrum. And I find usually that's what you have to move through when you're healing anxious attachment is you have to move through this. This abandonment. And I think anxious people tend to be very available to others and unavailable to themselves. And I think the abandonment wound creates self abandonment. We become unavailable to ourselves. So I call this the relationship shadow. It's the part of ourselves that we don't see. And if we're unavailable to ourselves, it's impossible for somebody to be available to us.
• 37:33
  Speaker C: Right.
• 37:33
  Speaker A: We're going to attract what we're in a vibrational match to. So how important is healing the abandonment wound in when it comes to, you know, doing this work?
• 37:43
  Speaker B: It's. Yeah, it should be the first, like, process, basically, because our relationship with ourselves is always projected, like, onto the world. So if we have a bad relationship with ourselves, then we will have bad relationships with the people around us. So. So yeah, it is very important, of course, because basically things don't come from the outside, and it comes from the inside out. And basically when you, like, I always have this kind of metaphor, not metaphor, kind of like a way or imagination to really know how your relationship with yourself is. And if you can imagine that yourself is a separate person, is like a separate entity, and this is your friend, let's say. And just if you realize the way you're talking to yourself, the way you feel about this person, this separate entity, this friend, the way you feel towards them, the way you treat them, the way you talk to them, and once you have this, like, perspective, then you are like, you would be shocked. You'd be, like, scared also, maybe because you will realize that if I was doing all of that to a. An actual friend, we won't be friends anymore. Like, that friend will just go away. And it's exact same way, like, for. For ourselves. Like, so. But because we cannot really run away from ourselves, but we can, like, metaphorically. So that's why like if you always look at the way you're treating yourself and the way you're talking to yourself as a separate person, that's when you start realizing or you start being aware of what needs to be done and what insecurities you have and how deep the abandonment and this like self worth and all these fears and insecurities like how deep they are and that's when you can start. So yeah, so of course like abandonment first you need to re establish the relationship with yourself to unabandon yourself before other people stop abandoning you. Basically.
• 39:56
  Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Unabandon yourself before people can start being there for you. I think it's so, so critical and I think that is the main piece of this puzzle in my opinion. Like stop self abandoning and you will start attracting people. But it's the root of why we're self abandoning. That's what has to be addressed and I think that's where the subconsc conscious work can come into play for you. Were you able to identify like why you were self abandoning or I shouldn't, I don't, I shouldn't assume that you even were. Were you Self abandoning maybe is a better.
• 40:26
  Speaker B: I mean I think everybody self abandons whenever they. They're attracting unavailable men. So that's a clear sign that you have abandoned yourself like a long time ago. And for me, yeah, it was like yeah, this like whole mix of shame and this whole mix of shame and like feeling that I was doing something wrong like my whole identity basically. And yeah, so it was like also the same reason as why like I was abandoning myself. I was unavailable to myself also. Yeah, like my self confidence, it was really bad in the past like my self worthiness. Even though I really appeared confident all the time, even to myself I was like oh yeah, I am confident. But then when I really did the work I realized it was just like a theatrical that I put to myself even. But it was all not really real. Like I was still feeling like unworthy of love, unworthy of healthy love. And I was always trying to change the end of the story. So always trying to run after unavailable men and then trying to change the end story. But that never happens.
• 41:44
  Speaker A: I think it's such a common story and I really do think that for a lot of us who feel unworthy of love in our subconscious program, we as gay men seek out sex. It's like everything else is going to get too close to home and then you'll see me that I don't feel worthy. So I'M going to attract more and more sex because that's a form of validation, right?
• 42:04
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 42:04
  Speaker A: And it gives me a faux sense of worthiness, but it's not addressing the issue.
• 42:09
  Speaker C: Right?
• 42:10
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And actually most of the, whether friends, like gay friends or clients, like including myself, like I had a whole phase and we all have this like shared experience of like yeah, we do it, but actually we are fake enjoying it. Like most of the guys I talked with, they were like, no, we. Yeah, like after you, you're done with the hookup or whatever, then you have this like kind of indifferent feeling. Like this indifference that you're like yeah, well whatever. So you don't have this like satisfaction that you, you were see trying to see like or you were seeking. You don't get it. And that's why you get disappointed after. But then you keep repeating the same cycle because you're not understanding what's going on. I mean of course there are people who just into sexual and they actually enjoy it. But for the majority, like whenever we go through this whole phase, it's. Yeah, it has a lot of other like deep seated beliefs and root causes basically.
• 43:12
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 43:13
  Speaker B: And that's why it's also very common in the gay community to have a whole phase because we all share the same suppression, same emotional development or under development in this case. And then we also share this like the way we try to compensate for it.
• 43:30
  Speaker A: Yeah. The best is to get to the place where you are having sex with a full heart or you're having sex and you're leading with your heart. So have a million partners, it doesn't matter. Quantity doesn't make this a bad thing. It's more so about are you bringing your full self into it? Are you leading with an unprotected part?
• 43:48
  Speaker C: Right.
• 43:48
  Speaker A: Where you're not like leading with protector parts or ego, these sorts of things. It's just like I would love to see gay men have both have tons of sex if that's what you want and have, have it from a place that feels genuinely true and real to you.
• 44:02
  Speaker C: Right?
• 44:03
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 44:03
  Speaker A: I think as long as, as we're honoring those two pieces, I think it's, you know, we can all be very healthy sexual beings and have intimacy and, and yeah.
• 44:13
  Speaker B: One way to know really like what's going on in the, in the backstage is basically like whenever you have this urge to do something, whether it's sex or any other thing, or talking to someone or dating this person, like if you just sit down for a moment and just like ask yourself what you're feeling and what's the motive behind what you're doing, then, like, really just be completely honest. That's like one of the first steps to start being aware of what's going on. Maybe you're not going to be able to identify the first 10 times, but at some point, if you keep asking yourself this question, you will start having answers for yourself.
• 44:55
  Speaker A: Yeah, I get that too, because it's layers. All of this stuff goes on in layers and it comes off in layers, too. So I do think that this process is a. It's a discovery of these layers and a rediscovery of self. As we peel back who we're not, we have to also then rediscover who we are. So it's appealing back and then a filling and appealing back and a filling and yeah, it's been a very, very beautiful process, but also very arduous, very long, very painful at times. So.
• 45:25
  Speaker B: Yeah, and like, it fluctuates, right? Like, even after you do the healing and everything, of course you will have some, some moments in your life where you feel down or. Because we're not perfect at the end, right? Like, nobody's perfect. We're not talking about being perfect here. Like, we're just talking about really understanding what's going on, having the tools or developing the tools that will help you through your life to identify these behaviors, work on them, and try to make the majority of your habits or the majority of your attractions, let's say, or manifestations, if somebody believes in manifestation, the majority that are on the healthy, to yourself side. But of course, occasionally, I mean, of course, I also still sometimes find myself like, oh, dating this unavailable person. And then that's when you know that you have the tool, the right tools now. And that's when you know that your healing actually worked. When you actually identify this person as unavailable. And then you lose interest and you step back, what the moment you identify that. So it's not about actually stopping attracting unavailable men. It's about being like, stopping, getting involved with them. Because unavailable people are all around us. You're going to stumble upon them all the time. There's no way to actually avoid them, but there is a way to not get involved with them.
• 46:49
  Speaker A: Yeah, that was so funny. What a perfect segue. Because I wrote this down. I wrote a blog about this, which I'll be linking in the show notes. But I just said simply attracting avoidant people is not a good measurement of where you're at on your healing journey towards secure attachment. However, sticking around for Avoidant behavior once it's been identified is right. Because they're everywhere. Avoidant people are everywhere. And you know what? Avoidant people usually have a three month mark of being able to actually be present and show up. It's when things start to get to where conflict arises, where needs start being talked about, where boundaries and emotions come into play. That's when they pull back. So please don't look at it like, oh, you know, I've got all these issues if you're attracting this still. But it's once you identify it, if you start negotiating your worth by continuing to show up in the connection to hoping that they'll finally come through and these sorts of things. I think that's the difference between somebody who is still dealing with insecure attachment versus somebody who's made it more towards secure in their attachment style.
• 47:47
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And actually that also goes for like couples. Like, I mean, because in most of the time people ask me like, oh you're so. It sounds that you only work with like single people and how they would attract love. And just a side note, it's not only about love. It's also like the moment you re establish your relationship with yourself, it feels like so many aspects of your life, not only love, but so many aspects, they align with who you are. So they will align on the healthy side. Then like whether it's friendships or work relations, anything would really start aligning and you would start seeing improvements the moment you have a good relationship with yourself and you like value yourself enough. But that was a long side note. Sorry.
• 48:36
  Speaker A: It's a good transition into what I wanted to wrap up with. So we've got a few minutes left to each take a moment maybe to share about healing tips like how to, how to break this cycle. Like what would you suggest to people that, you know, they've just listened to us for the last hour and they're like, holy crap, this is me. Where do you suggest would be next steps for people like this?
• 48:56
  Speaker B: Next steps? Yeah. First try to build as much awareness as possible about the motives behind or the motives behind your habits or patterns. Or just try, if you try to journal, try to really see like the past dating experiences or relationships. And that's when you start releasing a pattern and awareness is the first step. And then if you feel like ready then you can always seek like support, you can always seek help. We are born like as community people, not as individuals only. So there's no shame in seeking help or support. Basically.
• 49:34
  Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I think I could only get Myself so far on my own and attachment based work, in my opinion, you need to be in attachment to fully heal it. So I do think that there gets to be a point where it's like, okay, yeah, I've taken myself far enough. I've done journaling, I've done shadow work, I've done these pieces. And now how can I bring this dynamic into a relationship, AKA specific relationship or a specific therapeutic relationship where I can start to see these patterns and how they might be showing up in these contexts so I can start to address them.
• 50:07
  Speaker B: Exactly. And that goes on also for couples because you know, you can always have insecurities or develop new ones. And actually I know this is a long topic, but I'm just gonna brush like through it. So a lot of people actually who seek open relationships like I am pro, like open relationships for people that work for them. Myself, I'm monogamous. But also you need to really realize what's the motive behind opening the relationship. Because for so many people it's also self validation from others and not being confident, not being, not, not valuing themselves very well. And that's when they start seeking it from somewhere else. So yeah, so it also goes for, goes on for couples and yeah, basically.
• 50:52
  Speaker A: Yeah, I opened up my very first long term relationship. I was with him for eight years and the first four years we were monogamous. Then we opened up the relationship and for looking back, it was intimacy avoidance. I didn't want to be intimate with him. I didn't want to bring emotions and sex into the same conversation. I was young, right. I was 21 when I started dating him. So it was terrifying for me to even think about bringing emotions into.
• 51:15
  Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah.
• 51:16
  Speaker A: Geez. A tip. So you know, I would really hone in if it were me, I would hone in on the self abandonment piece. So look at where in your life you may have experienced abandonment and you may have to reframe what abandonment means to too because like I said, it could be emotional neglect, it could be not being seen, it could be inconsistent parenting, it could be not getting reassurance growing up, these sorts of things. So I would say start there and self abandonment for a lot of people. Just to point out, probably the two most that I see in my practice would be people pleasing.
• 51:47
  Speaker C: Right.
• 51:47
  Speaker A: Is a form of self abandonment. It's I'm going to prioritize your needs over my own.
• 51:53
  Speaker C: Right.
• 51:53
  Speaker A: So it's self sacrificing. And nothing will bleed your power out quicker than people pleasing. And then the other piece of Self abandonment, I would say would be avoidance of emotion, of your own emotion.
• 52:04
  Speaker C: Right.
• 52:04
  Speaker A: Every time an emotion is being asked to be felt and we turn to porn, sex, drugs, food, all the things that we have, it's a micro self abandonment. And enough of those micro self abandonments start to become big self abandonments. And so I would say to work on these two things, the fawning or the people pleasing and the emotional avoidance. I would say start to look at, well, a couple things. The teachings that I do in my, in my private work is I look at three pillars. So emotions, needs and boundaries. And they all work linearly. So start with emotions. Okay. Most people are emotionally avoidant, so how can we plug back in to our emotions?
• 52:46
  Speaker C: Right.
• 52:46
  Speaker A: I've got a guided meditation that I'll put in the show notes called meeting your emotions. That can be a great place to start. And then emotions are rich with data and the data is always needs, Right? When we have a positive emotion, it means a need is being met. When we have a negative emotion, it means there's an unmet need. So if we can start to get really clear about what our needs are through the data of our emotions, then that's the richness of this conversation in my opinion.
• 53:11
  Speaker C: Right.
• 53:11
  Speaker A: Once you start understanding your needs and asking for them to be met and meeting them yourself, that's when you start to become available to yourself and that's when you stop attracting unavailable people. And then once we know our needs, we start to have empowerment. And it's like, wow, I actually feel worthy. I feel like I have a sense of self. Then we move into the boundaries column, which is how can I protect this sense of self with communicating my needs and communicating the things that I will tolerate and not tolerate.
• 53:40
  Speaker C: Right?
• 53:40
  Speaker A: And then that's the pillar. Once you get to that pillar, the third pillar, that's when you truly will not even stick around for unavailable behavior because you have boundaries around. You know what, as soon as I identify unavailable behavior, I'm not sticking around and I'm going to let this person know. And maybe that's with a few need requests saying, hey, I need you to show up for me more emotionally and they are not able to do it, then you're out.
• 54:03
  Speaker C: Right?
• 54:04
  Speaker A: But I'm not going to say just, you know, give up on somebody that shows a bit of presentation of being unavailable. I think we need to give a few, you know, like requests and say, hey, you know what, I need this because that's part of love. No one can read our minds, but you know, like let's say one or two attempts of trying to get the need met and the person's still not able to show up. That's probably a clear indicator that that's not a good relationship.
• 54:25
  Speaker B: Exactly. I mean, communication is always key to everything. So. Yeah. Yeah.
• 54:31
  Speaker A: Wow. Yeah. Stimulating conversation. We could keep going for another hour. I feel like.
• 54:35
  Speaker B: I know.
• 54:35
  Speaker A: Yeah, we got to land the plane. Anything you want to leave the audience with?
• 54:40
  Speaker B: Basically, I would just like to really be kind to yourself, because this is, like, the most important thing. And, yeah, just imagine that there's, like, this little kid inside of you that every time you say, oh, I'm stupid or something, you're just telling this little kid that you're stupid or unlovable or unworthy or not enough. So just imagine you're talking always to a kid whenever you're talking to yourself. And basically, I would like to also, like, extend my support to the community in this case. And I would like. To anybody who is listening to this episode and to this podcast, I would like to offer five free sessions. So, yeah. So first come, first serve, Just tell me that you came through this particular episode, and I will give you the free session.
• 55:30
  Speaker A: Wow, that's very, very generous.
• 55:33
  Speaker B: Yeah, I would like to, like, give back, you know, like to. Because I was given so many things during my healing process, and I would like to just give back if you just feel like, oh, I want to try out and see how I'm feeling, and so on. So I would do, like, a deep dive session with you. Yeah.
• 55:51
  Speaker A: Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. Thank you so much. That's very sweet. And I'm sure, definitely people are going to snatch that up. Okay.
• 56:00
  Speaker B: Yeah. What about you, like, last piece of advice. Tip.
• 56:04
  Speaker A: I would just say be willing to challenge your own ego and practice humility and challenge the stories that you've been telling. I just think if you think about our concept and who we are, our identity, everything is just a collection of stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. So be open to those stories. Being wrong, if I'm being completely honest, because we grab onto things, we make meaning of them with our level of consciousness at the time. As our consciousness expands, we start to realize, oh, crap, there's new meaning here. And so just be willing to your. For your mind to change and your heart will follow, in my opinion.
• 56:40
  Speaker B: So, yeah. And actually, like, most of the times, the stories we tell to ourselves, they're not even real. So, yeah, just, like, there's a book I read before, it's really good, and I really recommend it as well. It's by the therapist, Marissa Peer. If somebody heard about her. And it's called tell yourself a better lie. Because we lie to ourselves the whole time. Just do it in a better way.
• 57:04
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. I like that. And everything will be linked in the show notes. But RainbowJourney Co is your website.
• 57:13
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 57:15
  Speaker A: Yeah. So everything. I'll link it in the show notes. I'll put the Israeli study about avoidance in our community. My blog that I wrote, and the meeting emotions, guided meditation. And yeah, I look forward to having you on again. I'm sure this won't be the last time. And thanks for coming on and just sharing your wisdom.
• 57:35
  Speaker B: Yeah, I was happy to be here. I'm really honored, and it was a really great conversation. Thank you, Matt.
• 57:41
  Speaker A: Good. Yeah, thank you. And for the listener, viewer. Mostly the viewer, because if you're on YouTube watching us, we'd love for you to drop your questions or your comments in the comment section and let's get this conversation happening down there. Because I do think that this is a really, really important conversation, and I know there's a lot of people deeply impacted by this, this, this issue. So share with us your experience, what came up for you when listening or watching this episode. If you're listening on the podcast platform, come over to YouTube and share your comments over there with us. And we'd love to hear from you. So until next time, much love, everybody.
• 58:17
  Speaker C: Sa.