Latest / New Worlder / Episode #107: Bruna Fontevecchia & Max Wilson

Transcript

Episode #107: Bruna Fontevecchia & Max Wilson · New Worlder

• 0:00
  This is the New Worlder Podcast,
• 0:02
  and I am one of your hosts,
• 0:04
  Nicholas Gill.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Co-host Juliana Duque will be joining shortly.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Today, we are speaking with Bruna Fontavecchia and Max Wilson.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: They are the co-founders of the food magazine and platform Enchoa.
• 0:19
  magazine which began in argentina has tried to create a space
• 0:23
  for deeper stories
• 0:24
  about food in latin america there is little to no mention of
• 0:28
  fine dining chefs or
• 0:29
  restaurant rankings the magazine covers anthropology and
• 0:33
  ecology with food the
• 0:35
  things that we eat and drink and how they are made as the
• 0:39
  connecting tissue that
• 0:40
  unites them all bruna is the editor and max is the designer and
• 0:44
  as you will hear
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: the process in building each issue is very organic
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: and flows with the rhythm of the region, which is in constant flux.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: While the magazine's coverage began in Argentina,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: where Bruna is from,
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: it has gradually spread to the rest of Latin America.
• 1:02
  Plus,
• 1:02
  the last two issues,
• 1:03
  number four and the just-released number five,
• 1:06
  are bilingual.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: in both English and Spanish.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Part of that decision is to get more people to read it,
• 1:13
  though part of it is logistical and just getting it on the
• 1:16
  shelves of bookstores
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: and newsstands in different parts of the world.
• 1:20
  Enchoa is part of a new wave of gastronomic journalism in the
• 1:26
  Latin American region,
• 1:27
  where small print magazines are finding life as large
• 1:31
  publications gravitate more
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: towards digital publishing.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's also Chío in Ecuador,
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: which started recently,
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: as well as several other small publications.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: In the interview,
• 1:43
  they describe the challenges in exposing people to these kinds
• 1:46
  of stories,
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: and they are continually experimenting with new forums.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: They have a digital only part of the magazine on their website.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: and a podcast that releases sporadically.
• 1:58
  They also just released a beautiful 20-minute short film called
• 2:03
  El Sueño del Vino
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: about ancestral winemaking methods in northern Argentina,
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: in Caffeyate specifically,
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: and the battle to preserve them.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Please check out what they're doing.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Pick up issue number five.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: I even have a photo essay in it about fish in the Peruvian Amazon.
• 2:21
  You can request your local bookstores with lively food sections
• 2:25
  to stock it.
• 2:26
  The more engaged the world can become with the depths of
• 2:29
  cuisine in the Americas,
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: the better it will be for all of us.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: So help them out.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't subscribed to my newsletter,
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: just go to newworlder.com or search for New Worlder on Substack.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's free to subscribe,
• 2:41
  though paid subscribers get access to all of the content and
• 2:44
  the complete back archives.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Again, that's newworlder.com.
• 2:49
  Also,
• 2:49
  look for my books,
• 2:50
  such as the Latin American Cookbook,
• 2:53
  at small bookstores everywhere.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Also, check out the New Worlder YouTube channel.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: We have full video episodes there,
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: including this one,
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: as well as some clips and other video content.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Just go to youtube.com slash newworlder.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: And please subscribe, like us, and share us.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Every little bit helps.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy the show.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Bruna.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Max.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: How are you guys?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, how are you doing?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: How are you?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hi.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, hello.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you guys are in Argentina right now.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: I noticed you're drinking mate already.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Proof we're in Argentina.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, yes.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're home in Argentina,
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: is it just like straight to the mate or do you do that in London as well?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: I could tell you the good answer, but I'll tell you the real answer.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a new mate drinker.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 4:33
  smoking a year ago and this is really helpful this is the truth
• 4:37
  in london usually
• 4:38
  but now i'm going to bring it back with me and max when you
• 4:42
  visited argentina more
• 4:43
  than almost 10 years ago you got into mate drinking and brought
• 4:47
  it back to the uk i
• 4:48
  used to drink more mate before i lived in buenos aires okay all
• 4:54
  right interesting
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: why is it yeah
• 4:59
  Yeah,
• 4:59
  probably some East London thing where I thought it was really
• 5:02
  cool and esoteric.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: How do you take your mate, both of you?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: We recently befriended this great couple who have their mate brand.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: And on the side of their packaging, it gives you instructions.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I've been following it.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: So basically, you grab your sack of the dry mixed herbs,
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then you have to make sure it's tilted slightly.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: There's a little hill.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then you put water and it has to be at 70 degrees.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: So this is the thing about Pate.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you drink with boiling water, it's not correct, apparently.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Burn your mouth.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be honest.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: I do that all the time because I forget to stop, turn off the kettle.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: I drink mate at home.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: I buy packages from whenever I'm in Argentina or Paraguay or Brazil.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a stock in my cabinet and then I
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I boil water, and then I forget to turn it off.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: It gets too hot, and then I'm like, all right, whatever.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I just pour it in the cup, and then the spoon, what's it called?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: The metal spoon.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: Bombilla.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the bombilla.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Bombilla in Argentina.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: I fucking burn my mouth on it all the time,
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: and it's like half my mate experience at home is like that.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: I just have to wait a little while.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'm laughing because they can be quite specific about the different...
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: All rules are presented as their infinite rules,
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: but then different people have different styles.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: Bruna has this, this half of the mate must not get wet.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: I understood.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: And not overwet it.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know about the half?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard of that, but I think that's very specific to...
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is it just Buenos Aires or is it just like parts of Argentina?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:03
  There's a lot of regionality to mate drinking that I haven't
• 7:07
  quite deciphered what
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: is correct where.
• 7:10
  But yeah,
• 7:11
  it's...
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  But then that's weird to me because some of it doesn't get wet
• 7:14
  at all,
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  right?
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's just... Yeah, so it's just...
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: The dried tea in the cup.
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  SPEAKER_00: What does that do?
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  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't make sense.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: What is the science behind that?
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  SPEAKER_03: Well, I long gave up trying to make sense of everything.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: That makes a lot of sense in Argentina.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Do you guys drink coffee too?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Max is a big... Way too, yes, far too much coffee.
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  SPEAKER_02: With the, what's it called, the Vialetti, the mocha.
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  But I can't always drink the coffee he's drinking,
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  it gives me palpitations.
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  SPEAKER_01: No, it's just drunk.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: And it's complicated here, isn't it, coffee?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Very expensive.
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  SPEAKER_03: Oh, right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And usually not the best in Buenos Aires either.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's lots of specialty coffee in the city.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but... Oh, I guess so.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Anyway.
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  SPEAKER_00: But is it quite expensive?
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's extremely expensive.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Good coffee.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  Because the government changed like the tax bracket from it becoming...
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  Right?
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  You know,
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  not a...
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  But yeah,
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  I think there's great baristas and great coffee...
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  sellers or makers on the production side everything's yeah okay
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  all right uh anyway
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  um so anchoa let's let's talk about the magazine what was the
• 8:52
  inspiration for
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: anchoa
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  SPEAKER_02: Well, there's many ways you can tell this story.
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  SPEAKER_02: I'll try to be like, you guys tell me.
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  SPEAKER_03: Can we have one answer each?
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  SPEAKER_02: I'll go quick, Diego.
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  SPEAKER_02: So basically, from my point of view, Max and I are together.
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  SPEAKER_02: We're a partnership.
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  SPEAKER_02: And he always talked to me about how
• 9:19
  doing a magazine and i always was a bit confused i was like oh
• 9:23
  a magazine i don't
• 9:24
  know so for us it started with the actual physical format and
• 9:27
  really thinking about
• 9:30
  do we need another magazine about x subject so it really came
• 9:35
  from the object and
• 9:36
  then and then of course the subject matter completely like i it
• 9:41
  changed my life but
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  i was always interested in gastronomy and in food and max likes
• 9:46
  to say that i was
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  SPEAKER_02: trying to figure out where i
• 9:48
  fit in because i was writing a little bit but i was like i'm
• 9:51
  not sure i even like a
• 9:53
  little stash in the kitchen somewhere so i was like okay do i
• 9:56
  like it this side um
• 9:58
  and then when we finally were like okay we're gonna do a
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  physical magazine an
• 10:02
  object there's a great responsibility with that okay what is
• 10:06
  missing in food
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  SPEAKER_02: gastronomy that we felt uh globally
• 10:10
  And this was the pandemic,
• 10:11
  which I think was a great eye-opener for many.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of people already were very eye-opened,
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: but I think it...
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: So for me,
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: it was very important to do,
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: more of a holistic,
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: talk about gastronomy,
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: maybe not entirely just in the kitchen,
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: but...
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: And of course,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: now we see it a lot more,
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: and we weren't inventing the wheel by any means,
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: but especially in Argentina,
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: we felt like it was still very much lacking.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's... People...
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: I get pitched and I'm like, do you, have you read the magazine?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it's, it's okay.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm lucky to get it.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't mean it in that way, but it is funny.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: It is funny.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, have you read it?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I realized most people haven't, but it's okay.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's fine.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: We keep canoeing en dulce de leche.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a paddling.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Paddling.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: What is your view designer?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good one.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: No, yeah.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's like Bruna says,
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: from the outside,
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: I could see Bruna with all these passions for food and not just food,
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: but the production of food.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_03: Also like the consumption of food, like restaurants, cooking as well.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so that was where my sort of like,
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: I've made or I've been involved in several magazines in the past,
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: like in the past 20 years of my career.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I really felt like,
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: Bruna's got a natural talent for editing and bringing together themes.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, every issue, there's never been a theme.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 11:58
  But and then Bruna's like,
• 11:59
  oh,
• 11:59
  this one actually seems to be all about,
• 12:01
  you know,
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, well, I don't think that's coincidence.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: She sort of swears every issue.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, it's totally a coincidence.
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  It's sort of like,
• 12:12
  you know,
• 12:12
  yeah,
• 12:14
  there are lots of ways you can describe that as coincidence.
• 12:19
  Is it something like there's some kind of thread in your life
• 12:23
  to where you want to
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: assign a certain type of story to build the magazine around?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe if you don't even realize it or not, it's just like,
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: unconsciously that's going on in your brain when you're like,
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: when getting pitches and,
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: and saying,
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: maybe try it like this or like that.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the end, you kind of figure out what that is.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what's happening?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: From the outside, that looks like what's happening.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: what has started to happen,
• 12:53
  what you start to realize is that it's a lot of like-minded
• 12:56
  individuals that are
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: also very diverse in their view.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: But at the end of the day,
• 13:01
  I think that the stories of gastronomy or of food that we're
• 13:05
  seeking to tell are
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: about understanding the story of gastronomy.
• 13:11
  human life and in a way that is community based so when you
• 13:15
  have these very big um
• 13:17
  viewpoints that are also small i always say we go forward we go
• 13:20
  back and you can
• 13:21
  look at things very detailed and you can look at them from very
• 13:24
  far and and it
• 13:25
  still brings i don't know if any of this makes sense but it
• 13:27
  still brings like
• 13:29
  sensibilities like this plurality of voices and I start to
• 13:34
  realize like a lot of it
• 13:35
  is about the way you want to live your life do you know what I
• 13:38
  mean like it's a lot
• 13:40
  of people who either lived in cities and then were like okay I
• 13:43
  need to change my
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: life and I move away and then
• 13:45
  they're very fortunate that they can become a producer or they
• 13:48
  can you know sell
• 13:49
  everything and go or there's people who um sadly come because
• 13:53
  life does not admire
• 13:55
  producers you know and especially in Latin America they are
• 13:57
  poor like poor by a
• 14:00
  currency standards very rich from a life standard so when we
• 14:04
  and you can see that
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: there is this hunger for lack of a better word for for these real
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think gastronomy and food,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: and it's funny,
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: we say gastronomy,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: but gastronomy can also be very alienating,
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: can be very elitist,
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: can be very marginal.
• 14:20
  So we use gastronomy to show people that gastronomy has so much
• 14:24
  to do with what
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: isn't happening in the kitchen only.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, it's very abarcativo.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully that made sense.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:35
  So,
• 14:36
  Bruna,
• 14:36
  you and I had a conversation like a year ago,
• 14:39
  I think,
• 14:40
  something like that.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you told me it was,
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Anchoa was basically an anthropology and ecology magazine,
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: but it's just food was the thing that kind of tied it all together.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, you didn't want it to be an academic magazine.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 15:03
  It started being a magazine about produce and the people who
• 15:06
  dedicated their life
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: to it and all the different.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then as I was like,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: as I started learning a lot more,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: because that's the thing with Anchoa,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: like I am,
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not an academic.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't had an experience of more than a decade in a certain field.
• 15:20
  So for me,
• 15:21
  it was like,
• 15:21
  I was,
• 15:22
  as an editor of this,
• 15:23
  it was,
• 15:24
  I was learning everything.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: with every issue.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: So as we progress, it's like, oh, we are also an ecology magazine.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, we're also an anthropology magazine.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it more than anything,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: and I don't want to bastardize or,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: disrespect those magazines that are purely about that,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: but it was just,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: it's a multidisciplinary or,
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: magazine.
• 15:44
  It's always been about sneaking these things into the
• 15:50
  consumer's conscience without
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: it seeming like it's...
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm telling you what to do.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, too heavy or too...
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: it's keeping it,
• 16:02
  there's an element of trying to keep it somewhat light and
• 16:06
  commercial so that
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: people will pick it up,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: You want it to be, you want people to want to engage with these topics.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: I want it to not stay in the niche,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: which of course it is,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: it's a very small publication,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: but if we can change people's,
• 16:21
  anyone to be more curious about a subject and therefore change
• 16:24
  their consumption
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: habits without being told,
• 16:27
  you got to do this,
• 16:28
  you have to buy it here,
• 16:30
  but rather through maybe learning something new.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then that toolbox opens up and they're like,
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: next time I'm going to go to this restaurant.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Not because someone told me I have to go,
• 16:39
  but because I learned something about the subject that sort of
• 16:43
  correlates with this
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: way of,
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: do you know what it's all about,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: this domino effect.
• 16:49
  But definitely,
• 16:50
  I don't want to be crude against magazines that are very much
• 16:53
  about a subject.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: But sadly,
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: in Argentina,
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: at least,
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: which is where we started,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: if I tell you buy my anthropology magazine,
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think most people will...
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: because they're looking at something else.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: There's a glossiness.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: So we're trying to use the glossiness in an honest way,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: of course,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: but show you that there's so much more.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's why our first issue, we opened with a female producer.
• 17:16
  She's an agroecological producer that focuses on aromatic herbs,
• 17:22
  and it's all about agroecology.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: for me,
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: made me so happy,
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: trying to show this is gastronomy way more than you think.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, maybe a bit snobby for me to tell you what it is.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: No, no.
• 17:36
  I mean,
• 17:36
  I think in general,
• 17:38
  in Latin America,
• 17:39
  there just has been this kind of divide.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's either the purely academic magazine.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's very wordy.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's not for everybody.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's usually for specialists in those specific fields.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have all these like lifestyle publications and, you know,
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Just everything else in between has just been missing, I think.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Julie, do you agree with that?
• 18:05
  Well,
• 18:05
  I was thinking that,
• 18:06
  I mean,
• 18:07
  it's multidisciplinary because food is by nature that way.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: It covers everything from our lives in so many ways.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's naturally going that way.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I think you're right.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think the fact that you're trying to focus on food
• 18:26
  I mean,
• 18:26
  not in consumption,
• 18:28
  even when you're affecting consumers in the ways you were saying.
• 18:32
  I think it's an effort to not go back or not to be academic or
• 18:37
  theoretical about it,
• 18:38
  but it's more about showing how all these things are made and
• 18:43
  how that might make a
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: difference in how people consume and think about food.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because yes, there is too much focus on
• 18:52
  the enjoyment,
• 18:54
  you know,
• 18:54
  enjoying food,
• 18:55
  enjoying,
• 18:56
  I don't know,
• 18:57
  the menu of a restaurant.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's so everywhere.
• 19:02
  I think we are all,
• 19:04
  you know,
• 19:04
  people like us working on this,
• 19:05
  we are a bit tired of all that.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I...
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: in an interview made to you,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Bruna,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: which I think,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: it summarizes very well what the project is about.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: It caught my attention that you said the joy of knowledge,
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: knowledge about food,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: let's enjoy food,
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: but let's enjoy the,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: knowledge about it,
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: which is,
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: it can change in good ways,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: the way which we enjoy it.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's great.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: and I think it's a great way to connect Latin America too,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: because yeah,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: maybe chefs are connecting it.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: They invite each other to cook and that's a way of becoming a region.
• 19:52
  But I think this effort of focusing on things that are before
• 19:57
  and beyond consumption,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: it's another way of united us as a region.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's important to know.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Super.
• 20:06
  Also,
• 20:06
  it's a region that people think,
• 20:08
  oh,
• 20:08
  most speak the same language,
• 20:09
  let's say.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's very disconnected.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you guys, with all the research that you do, know way more.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just starting because now Anchoa is
• 20:19
  we're latin american we're moving we're still always you know
• 20:23
  argentina is our home
• 20:24
  base but uh we want to try and bridge uh more of the the
• 20:29
  continent and it's yeah
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: it's not yeah and i was because it's a niche project um and i think
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there is always this challenge, right?
• 20:41
  How do I talk in a critical,
• 20:43
  thoughtful way about things and I reach more people?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's always a challenge, right?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: In practical ways,
• 20:53
  have you seen a change in that or have you come up with
• 20:57
  strategies to get to a
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: broader audience?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because the people already interested are already interested, right?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 21:06
  you'll think but i don't know so yeah i'm curious about that
• 21:13
  experience and and i
• 21:14
  mean giving them publishing by itself is already very
• 21:18
  challenging so so challenging
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: there are some ways where we try and engage with people who we
• 21:30
  we look at people who we think they'll have an audience that we
• 21:35
  could convert in
• 21:37
  that sense from people who are just interested in food and
• 21:42
  trends to being
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: interested in something a little bit beyond that.
• 21:49
  And how you can profile those people and look for those people
• 21:53
  and places,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: whether it's a particular chef or restaurant,
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: whether it's a particular artist or journalist.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, people who enjoy the work, like Sebastian.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: Sebastian López Brac, amazing photographer from Rosario in Argentina.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: And how you can bring his work together
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: that already has like an audience,
• 22:20
  people who really respect his work and how you can start asking
• 22:25
  him to tell some of
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: the stories that Anchoa are interested in.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: That's like, that's one way of doing it, isn't it?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: Through collaboration.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: Through collaboration, yeah.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great way to summarize it, yeah.
• 22:35
  Sometimes we're like,
• 22:36
  okay,
• 22:37
  we get,
• 22:37
  I don't know,
• 22:38
  it's like Anchoa is this.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: But not only this,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: it's every collaborator from every issue and where I'm so proud,
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: we're so proud.
• 22:45
  Like sometimes it's more than 20 in one single issue and that's
• 22:48
  what makes it,
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: it's the community.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: So as we started rating
• 22:53
  a wider that is like for example a hambre de cultura in
• 22:58
  colombia they sell a
• 23:00
  magazine and i know that through that we've been able to and
• 23:02
  now i want you know we
• 23:04
  it's yeah it's always through collaboration i think for now i
• 23:07
  hope the other
• 23:09
  avenues too there are there are definitely people there are
• 23:12
  definitely consumers
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: there who are alert to some of the
• 23:18
  some of the the i'm trying not to use the word con but there
• 23:22
  are these cons in
• 23:23
  ecology the paper straw you know like how how often i see
• 23:28
  people making jokes about
• 23:30
  the the connection between the paper straw and billionaires
• 23:34
  flying their jets for
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: seven minute like people are alert to these like
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: to these sort of like fallacies that we've been sold.
• 23:45
  And it's those people are going to restaurants and they're
• 23:48
  complaining about paper straws.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: So now you can tell them something a little bit more funny.
• 23:55
  Like what you can think about beyond what the solutions are to
• 24:00
  that sort of problem.
• 24:01
  And we are always,
• 24:03
  if I may say,
• 24:03
  holding the reader's hand,
• 24:05
  like not in a,
• 24:06
  like together.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because I've had collaborators who I love and they're very much,
• 24:13
  Anchoa is an activist publication in a way where it's not
• 24:16
  screaming at you.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: Not that screaming is not effective, definitely.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: But for us, it goes through somewhere else about the enjoyment, right?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so sometimes with collaborators,
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: they've wanted to tune up the volume and I'd be like,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: yes.
• 24:31
  let's let's make sure they finish your piece like for me it's
• 24:34
  important like i want
• 24:35
  them to read it because it's more knowledge there'll be other
• 24:38
  avenues to scream at
• 24:39
  them and to throw red paint and break but you know we're doing
• 24:42
  this very beautiful
• 24:43
  piece of you know there's a beauty i don't know i'm not trying
• 24:47
  to do censorship i'm
• 24:48
  just trying to like no it's good advice let's make sure they
• 24:51
  finish you for me
• 24:52
  that's always very as an editor i'm always reading it's like
• 24:54
  okay how can we what
• 24:55
  what are they going to come after or how how can they put you
• 24:59
  in un casichero in a
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: In Argentina, there's so much, it's like, this is crazy to me.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: In Argentina,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: agroecology and organic,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: and maybe this happens in other parts of the world too,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: but at least in Argentina,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: it's politicized.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: So they don't trust each other.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: We live half the year in the UK.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: You go to a farmer's market, everyone's happy.
• 25:16
  Of course,
• 25:16
  it's a very different situation,
• 25:18
  very different budgets,
• 25:19
  very different lifestyles.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: But so for me, I'm a bit frightened.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like,
• 25:24
  I don't want them to read this piece and think that we are this
• 25:27
  because they'll
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: stop reading you and then they'll just,
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: and then there's no progress.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: There's no dahelah.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: Do this.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, no, we are not that.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: We are trying to think and it's not, I don't know if this makes sense.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it's always interesting when we collaborate
• 25:41
  bring in a bit of our not rules but parameters let's say how
• 25:46
  much yeah i mean i
• 25:49
  think you just want to kind of keep it open-minded and keep it
• 25:56
  just keep it about
• 25:57
  asking the questions rather about you know what's right and
• 26:00
  wrong in you know i
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: think most of my best work has been in small regional print magazines
• 26:08
  like you know mostly in europe or a few in latin america and
• 26:12
  yeah these stories
• 26:14
  don't get widely read like something that goes on goes online
• 26:20
  for a big mainstream
• 26:21
  publication but i do think they get more deeply read uh and in
• 26:27
  like i think that's
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: really important you know like if you can
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you can get 200 people to really read 5,000 words about something,
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: like truly read it and understand it.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's way more effective,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 26:44
  in the health of the world or whatever you want to call it than
• 26:49
  5,000 people just
• 26:50
  glimpsing through on their phones really quickly and then
• 26:53
  forgetting about it in 10
• 26:55
  seconds because there's a cat video or something that just
• 26:58
  popped up or girls
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: fighting in high schools or I don't know,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: something like that.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Labradors for me.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Labradors.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, we should put that on a poster.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: I can die happy if that happens to somebody.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'm happy.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: And it really is the thing when you're doing it.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: a project like Anchoa, that really hits the nail on the head.
• 27:29
  If you can get a number of sincere people to read it sincerely
• 27:37
  and really think
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: about something,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: then that is much more important.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: the number of click-throughs that the website gets and the number of,
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: is much more important.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's hard to...
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: to like calculate that too,
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: it's like,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: because you don't get all that feedback that suddenly,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: people,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: when you post something on Instagram and everyone's like,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: yes.
• 28:07
  Or,
• 28:08
  you know,
• 28:08
  all these exclamation points and likes and hearts,
• 28:11
  even when they don't read it.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like I know things like I'll post an article,
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: a photo of an article on Instagram and all these people comment on it.
• 28:22
  But then I'll go back to the,
• 28:24
  you know,
• 28:25
  the actual page,
• 28:26
  like the stats of the article.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you motherfuckers didn't read this.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like you assholes.
• 28:33
  You just clicked on the idea of the story,
• 28:35
  but you never actually read it.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: You never actually thought about it.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: so it's hard,
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: it's hard to,
• 28:44
  to kind of balance that because you don't get that adrenaline
• 28:47
  rush quite as easy from,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: something in print and a small niche print magazine.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: And Bruno touched on that.
• 28:56
  You get people pitching and it's quite clear they haven't read
• 28:59
  the magazine,
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: even,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: even something online.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:03
  But I think you pointed to something,
• 29:05
  Nick,
• 29:05
  that I never thought about it that way.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh,
• 29:08
  Because I'm always frustrated in how you reach out to more people,
• 29:12
  right?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I think if a few people read carefully,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: how they are going to replicate that in different ways.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's another way of maybe you don't hear from them.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's not a direct comment on the article,
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: but maybe in their own jobs,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: especially if they have power to affect things,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: maybe,
• 29:34
  maybe it changed something or maybe they create a project
• 29:37
  because they read an article.
• 29:38
  about natural wine or they they saw the film we'll talk about
• 29:43
  it and so i mean it's
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: it's less tangible but maybe it's happening
• 29:51
  we we are like occasionally we'll be at a table we've been
• 29:55
  invited somewhere for
• 29:56
  dinner or i'm just thinking of a few instances where we've been
• 30:00
  somewhere and
• 30:01
  people have said oh we know and we really enjoyed um your
• 30:06
  podcast episode and you
• 30:08
  kind of like yeah it's not we're not like feigning or faking
• 30:13
  any humility there
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: like we're genuinely like
• 30:17
  very pleased to hear that someone I get surprised I'm like oh
• 30:21
  no like quite often
• 30:23
  we're going to be like and show her the magazine and they're
• 30:27
  like yes and show her
• 30:28
  the magazine are you sure the magazine is Bruno I think they're
• 30:36
  talking about I
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: think they're talking about your project yeah
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully policy makers.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_03: That's what we want.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: Just, yeah.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: People in the, in the food industry are, you know, yeah.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: And it's, and it's nice, but it's also, it's beyond nice.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's that thing of like, yeah.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: I feel, see, all the hard work.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 31:07
  Yeah,
• 31:08
  I'm curious about the editorial process because it's annually,
• 31:12
  so it's a lot of work.
• 31:14
  And how do you go throughout the year about it for people that
• 31:18
  maybe are not
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: familiarized how that works and why it takes so much,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: So much time.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: to be frank,
• 31:28
  at first we were going to be biannual and then I realized
• 31:32
  that's extremely
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: ambitious and we don't have the money.
• 31:36
  we barely have the money to be annual so imagine it's really
• 31:39
  difficult so I would
• 31:41
  say that it could take shorter time I think each issue takes
• 31:46
  about seven eight
• 31:48
  months because after we come out with one because it's annual
• 31:51
  right we all have a
• 31:51
  little bit of a rest an incubation of relaxation or maybe of
• 31:56
  just absorbing and
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: seeing what is going to inspire us what are we what are we reading but
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: But really,
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: for me,
• 32:03
  every issue is really how has it thought out is all the
• 32:08
  questions I have as a
• 32:09
  consumer and as someone who doesn't live behind in the kitchen
• 32:14
  or in like a
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: greenhouse or in another greenhouse in the fields.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it all starts from,
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: so for example,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: when issue one was sort of like,
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: we thought it would be just one off,
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: who's going to read this?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: But we got very fortunate.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: There was a certain...
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: There was this energy going on.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: People had all these questions,
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: were upset,
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: the pandemic,
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: so it was like,
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think we got very lucky.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: But issue two for me was like, okay, now we're going to talk about seeds.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: For me, that issue was like, okay, I have so many questions.
• 32:47
  And why is it illegal in Argentina to exchange seeds that are
• 32:52
  not part of the certification?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: So seeds that are like open pollinators, which is
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: like open knowledge, like, no, no, those you cannot exchange.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's all this stuff.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I,
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: and I spoke with policymakers and I was like,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: Oh God,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: we're getting into some dark terrain here.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: Cause I could see the speech of what one was telling me and the other.
• 33:09
  So it was like,
• 33:10
  maybe it's better to talk to policymakers that are not from Argentina.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe for me as an Argentine,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: I need some distance,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: but I think every issue it's sort of like,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: and now that I don't,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm no expert,
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: but now I know a bit more about the seeds.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, okay,
• 33:24
  going to talk about seeds now we're going into more into
• 33:26
  communities like first it
• 33:28
  was more like okay let's talk the principles or the basis of
• 33:31
  someone who knows
• 33:31
  nothing about a subject so as we start doing these pieces okay
• 33:35
  now i think this
• 33:37
  issue of anchoa uh is a lot it's actually a lot about tradition
• 33:43
  nostalgia all the
• 33:44
  things that you would immediately think of in gastronomy it's
• 33:46
  taken us five issues
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: to sort of do the circle be like okay now that we've sort of
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that makes any sense,
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: but it's like,
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: or like the natural wine piece,
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: like we did our first one,
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: it's like,
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: what is natural wine?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: How do you make natural wine?
• 34:00
  So now it's like,
• 34:01
  okay,
• 34:02
  now we're looking at the same,
• 34:03
  we're a bit more mature maybe.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, okay, we can get deeper in in a different way.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: If that makes,
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: if that answer,
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think I went all over,
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: but really it's just a bit,
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: for example,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: in this issue,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: we have a piece about commodities and we have a piece about commodities,
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: not because I was like,
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: but I was like,
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: what is a commodity?
• 34:21
  like we should talk about commodities right everyone talks
• 34:23
  about do a piece about
• 34:24
  corn okay why no but that's a commodity why don't we so we have
• 34:27
  a piece about corn
• 34:28
  told in a different way with the great i'm so honored and i'm
• 34:32
  gonna show up
• 34:32
  christina barros she's this mexican journalist she's amazing
• 34:36
  and she she joined i
• 34:37
  was like oh my god i am like um so and then we have and then
• 34:42
  the the person who
• 34:43
  wrote the commodities piece she's this young um
• 34:46
  environmentalist she works with a
• 34:48
  young kids for the day anyway and she's super political and
• 34:53
  it's it's just
• 34:54
  fantastic to have all these different voices and the angles and
• 34:59
  i think really
• 35:00
  sometimes a piece comes from a connection with someone it's
• 35:02
  like let's do something
• 35:04
  together what can we do so it's not so much about thinking
• 35:07
  about a theme or about
• 35:09
  subject sometimes it is it's like what is a commodity or if
• 35:13
  that makes it's a bit
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: very disorganized it's like
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: But you're probably right.
• 35:17
  You're maybe more confident now with your experience that you
• 35:21
  are going to approach
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: topics that are usually approached in a superficial way,
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: in a more complex way.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say there are not stupid questions or stupid topics.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's what are you asking about them?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's different.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, there is not something that by itself is down or shallow.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, something is, everything is telling you something about the world.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_03: And then you have to switch from editor to distributor.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: And promotion and marketing and all those things, digital marketing.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: You're more digital marketing.
• 36:05
  But there are so many,
• 36:07
  you know,
• 36:07
  why it takes a year is because you're,
• 36:11
  yeah.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: You're building an issue,
• 36:13
  but now there'll be a period of like two or three or four
• 36:18
  months where you're going
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: to be so focused on making sure people actually...
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: ...can receive the magazine.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: All the logistics, sending it out.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: We also try... We have a podcast that is very, very atemporal.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: They're sort of sleeping right now.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: We have like...
• 36:37
  We have a piece,
• 36:38
  an episode that's been in post-production for over a year.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: I feel so bad.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: But it will come out.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's one of the beautiful things.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: What was discussed is still relevant.
• 36:47
  So we tried to do a bit of that during the year,
• 36:49
  but I wish it had a lot more cadence.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: So the digital aspect of Anchoa, how important is that?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: This is digital man right here.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's always a fight because I'm very much like,
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: this piece is for the print,
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: not for digital.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: Or a piece he thinks is good for print, no, that's for digital.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: For me, there definitely is a difference.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thinking about a piece for a specific format,
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think is very part of the core of what we do at Anchoa.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: People won't engage with a digital piece for as much time,
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: for as many words,
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: essentially,
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: as they will.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: So that's one key differentiator, isn't it?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: How in-depth to this subject can you go in a digital piece?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: There isn't, like, some kind of level of quality.
• 37:58
  It's not about,
• 37:59
  like,
• 37:59
  oh,
• 37:59
  that's not interesting enough,
• 38:01
  so we'll put that in digital.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's something else that makes it digital, I think.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: And you have to... And we don't have guidelines on that.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: We just have vibes, don't we?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: So... Yeah.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: So that makes it interesting when people are...
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: pitching you ideas or when you see something.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: And then the podcast is another sort of string to the digital flow.
• 38:38
  We went through a stage of like looking at sort of Patreon
• 38:42
  style digital content
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_03: where we could put that behind a...
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: you don't want to say paywall, but some membership platform.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's very difficult.
• 38:56
  There are so many things that are difficult purely because you
• 38:59
  need to be able to
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_03: accept Argentine pesos as a payment method.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: And just like immediately,
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_03: that makes it so complicated because Patreon,
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: for example,
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_03: you wouldn't be able to use because they don't let you charge in pesos.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: And if you,
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: until recently,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: if you paid,
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_03: this is getting a bit technical now,
• 39:21
  but if you paid for a subscription in Argentina with an
• 39:27
  Argentine card and the
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: processor was based abroad,
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: you effectively got taxed so much,
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: like 90%,
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_03: but it became double.
• 39:35
  you were paying double essentially so if we were asking people
• 39:38
  for you know two
• 39:40
  dollars a month it became four but if you're asking people for
• 39:45
  you know twenty
• 39:45
  dollars it became forty and those things made made those
• 39:51
  attempts very very
• 39:52
  complicated max is great at problem solving and he's always
• 39:56
  finding these yeah i
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: think like the adversity makes you more creative and find a way around so
• 40:03
  He is always looking at alternatives and,
• 40:06
  oh,
• 40:06
  we can try this new platform or this.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: And we have, you know, Club Anchoa.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:12
  Which today is more of a friends club,
• 40:18
  like people who just want to be patrons.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's more like patrons.
• 40:23
  We don't want to have that content gated only for those viewers because...
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's more important.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: We would commission a digital piece and not many people would read it.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: And it was like, oh, what is the use of this?
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it really makes you think.
• 40:37
  So now it's more of like you want to support Anchoa and you
• 40:41
  want to have access to
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: our digital archive,
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: which is basically the thing that's in the magazine.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: OK, so it's everything in the magazine now is uploaded digitally.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, but it's not open to anyone.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: That, yes, that we do put behind the paywall, let's say.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: But then we have
• 40:58
  We've started to work with digital collaborators who will write
• 41:02
  different pieces,
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: opinion pieces,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: and that were used to live behind a paintball.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: But now we've decided that that needs visibility and it makes no sense.
• 41:10
  So that's why it's a bit difficult for us because we don't have
• 41:12
  any advertisers.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we the first sort of
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: external money that came in was through our short film that we just did.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: That was a bit of a commission, but it was fantastic.
• 41:28
  And we weren't really advertising anything,
• 41:29
  but someone put money in to do it and funded it.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that was, for me, was amazing.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: We're looking for more opportunities like that.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I was getting to that.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you just...
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Produced, produced, made a film.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's called El Sueño del Vino.
• 41:49
  And it's kind of about ancestral winemaking in northern
• 41:53
  Argentina and Caffayate,
• 41:56
  essentially.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of what brought this on?
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: Tell that story.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: So basically I was,
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: and my mom was like,
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: we need to,
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 42:08
  we needed to connect with more people to see how we could
• 42:11
  sustain Anjoa because
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: Anjoa was always,
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: self-sustaining, not self-sustaining, but self-funded, exactly.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it was getting to a point where we're saying,
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: OK,
• 42:20
  I can know and we can no longer get it from our own pocket and
• 42:25
  see what is viable
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: out there.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: And through these connections,
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: we ended up meeting with Enrique Piñeiro,
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: who is he is a businessman in Argentina who
• 42:39
  He does a lot of work with his,
• 42:42
  he rescues refugees and he has a boat in them.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: He's a philanthropist.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: He owns a restaurant.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: He owns a restaurant called Anchoita.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: He came first.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: The name is his.
• 43:01
  So basically we met with him and he was just very interested in
• 43:05
  this specific
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: winemaker that appeared in the film Mondovino.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: So through that conversation, this project started.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: And when we started analyzing what possibilities were there,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: that's when we pitched him a multi-format
• 43:26
  investigation and I was like okay like if we are going to go
• 43:29
  there we cannot not
• 43:30
  film like we have to film something and he has a background in
• 43:34
  film and he's pretty
• 43:35
  able to film so there was a bit of that and he was an amazing
• 43:39
  collaborator and also
• 43:41
  us as a small independent I don't know magazine slash
• 43:47
  production studio he gave us
• 43:49
  so much freedom and was you know he's like I'm funding this for
• 43:53
  Anchoa like
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: you know, and it was an amazing collaborator.
• 43:58
  If you put a Venn diagram of collaborators' interests,
• 44:03
  his interests overlap in...
• 44:05
  Entirely.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, in a perfect sense.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because even his restaurants within the Anchoita,
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Panaderia,
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: the Cava,
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: different proposals that they have,
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: he creates his supply networks,
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 44:20
  because of the lack of infrastructure in such a big country
• 44:22
  like Argentina.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 44:24
  he's very in tune with small producers and everything that goes
• 44:28
  into that and also
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: doing it very correctly,
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: like doing it with all the right certifications in terms of the Senasa,
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: like food,
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: like everything is done so well.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: So he is,
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: creating,
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: an example to follow,
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: maybe for the government to put in...
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: So basically,
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_02: when he talks to me about this winemaker,
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: Antonio Cabezas,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: who appeared in Jonathan Nositer's Mondovino in 2004,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: I started researching and I realized that he passed sadly in 2021,
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: but that his nieces and nephews,
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: they were still making wine.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 45:03
  this whole world opened up because actually there are more
• 45:07
  vineyards in Argentina
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: that are smaller than five hectares.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if hectares, but it's, you know, then wider ones.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you would think, okay, that makes sense.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: But in Argentina,
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: when you think about winemaking,
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: you really,
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: at least most people really think about these huge wineries that exports.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, that is a winemaker.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, it was really like, how does a winemaker look?
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: Who is allowed to make wine?
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because there is such an elitist,
• 45:34
  world around winemaking usually you export and make a lot of
• 45:38
  money or it's you're
• 45:39
  losing money but it's your hobby and whatever there's people
• 45:43
  who are making wine
• 45:43
  out of substance and i first to hear anyone making anything
• 45:47
  that you eat or consume
• 45:48
  out of substance is so unheard of and it is every great reality
• 45:52
  but it doesn't get
• 45:53
  lots of visibility and you don't really get to these stories
• 45:56
  but then second
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: someone who's making wine and is doing it really well um
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: which shouldn't be a surprise, but well, there is the.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's that,
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: there's that disconnect in Argentina,
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: especially it's like,
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: you just,
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: you only hear about,
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: those 20 people in Valle de Uco or whatever,
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: and like around Mendoza and then everything else,
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: it's just like,
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: you hear nothing.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:22
  And there's,
• 46:22
  if I may add,
• 46:23
  there's also the syncretism that happens because
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: This winemaker is of an indigenous community
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: the grapes came with,
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: la vid,
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: came already with the colonialists,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: with the Jesuits.
• 46:37
  And so you don't really see so many people from an indigenous
• 46:41
  community making wine
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: because it's not...
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: So then for me,
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: what is such a beautiful element of the story and important to show,
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: because it is part of the territory we call Argentina today,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: was the syncretism that happened with the Pachamama.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: and making wine, which was more European.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: So we went in April,
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: which the first of April,
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: sorry,
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: August,
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: not April,
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: August,
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: which is the Pachamama day,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: the first of August.
• 47:10
  And we were in a vineyard in Argentina doing an offering to the Pachamama.
• 47:16
  I thought this was,
• 47:17
  as an Argentine,
• 47:17
  I was like,
• 47:18
  I never knew this existed.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so important.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, that is also a key part of the story of just
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: showing these realities.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: And who is allowed to make wine?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: And what is your preconception?
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_02: So a bit of that.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: And also,
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: if I may add,
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: we tried to fit a lot in 17 minutes,
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: but there's all these different stories.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: There's also this painter, Calixto Mamani, who
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: He passed,
• 47:47
  but we also referenced him a lot because it was also about
• 47:51
  going against the status
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: quo of how to live your life.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of these stories were people who were working for others,
• 47:59
  were working in their fincas and were never probably going to
• 48:02
  break that cycle.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: And the stories that we show are people who,
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 48:06
  they broke the cycle and they have their own wine and they make
• 48:10
  wine for themselves,
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: for their family.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that there was a bit of that, a resistance to go against
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: this sort of elitist wine world and other wines.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: So there's all that of it.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: I love that project.
• 48:26
  I hope we can make more films because...
• 48:28
  Are there any others in the works?
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: Any other films?
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: No, not yet.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, something small produced.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like I see, but nothing to that scale.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like we, because of Enrique and his team at Andreita Films,
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: We worked with colorists.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: We worked with montagists.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was a very, the post-production took more than a month.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like I have never worked at that capacity.
• 48:56
  And it was beautiful because it reminds me a bit of the
• 49:01
  magazine that we do for those.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just going to show, I have them here.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: But it's all printed on like,
• 49:10
  paper that is it has an important feel you know it's it's not
• 49:13
  newsprint which is
• 49:14
  also important but so for us it's always said like these
• 49:17
  stories are important and
• 49:18
  they deserve to be printed in this good paper with a sewn um
• 49:23
  the you know so for me
• 49:26
  it was also the same thing with that like that story deserves
• 49:29
  to have all that
• 49:29
  levels of post-production because it is important it is and
• 49:33
  maybe you don't see
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: these sort of stories told with that level of
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: of collaboration in terms of finessing or what would you say?
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_03: No, yeah, just the quality of production.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: The quality of production.
• 49:47
  Well,
• 49:47
  that was,
• 49:48
  and if anyone is interested,
• 49:50
  we are always available to do that collaboration.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 49:58
  no it's it's the thing is it's just it's hard to find the
• 50:02
  publications that do want
• 50:03
  to actually collaborate anymore like there's so few and then we
• 50:08
  were we interviewed
• 50:10
  the founders of full magazine uh recently and and yeah it's
• 50:15
  just it's become just
• 50:16
  so disposable so transactional to work with a publication these
• 50:23
  days that it's
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: that you don't build that relationship.
• 50:26
  There isn't,
• 50:27
  you don't build that relationship with the,
• 50:30
  with the subject either.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: When it becomes like that,
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: it's just,
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: you have three days to get in,
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: get out,
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: tell that,
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: 1200 word story.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: Here's your expenses.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you're even getting that and yeah, you know, that's it.
• 50:46
  And yeah,
• 50:47
  it's,
• 50:47
  it's,
• 50:48
  it's sad because it's like the really good things that,
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: It takes time.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: It takes time to build relationships and talk through ideas.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not just a,
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: 200 word,
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: pitch in an email with a bio and it's,
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: it's become that.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: We,
• 51:08
  I sort of feel like we started here and I don't know if we're
• 51:11
  ever going to get a
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: collaboration like that.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: We went for seven days.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_02: Even some of the producers brought them over to Buenos Aires.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: It was quite special.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_03: And the team that you,
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_03: the filmmakers and journalists that you work with on that project,
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_03: again,
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_03: I've already mentioned Sebastian.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: Natalie Alcoba, Argentine Canadian journalist.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: She's fantastic.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: Her work is great.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: And when we had a filmmaker, I would say, what's the director's name?
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so sorry.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: I have very bad names in the situation.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, save me, Max.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm worse with names.
• 52:06
  And Sebastian Lopez Brack,
• 52:07
  who we mentioned,
• 52:08
  he came and he did the direction of photography.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because not only that, it was a multi-format piece.
• 52:19
  And this is where digital is important because it was a
• 52:21
  digital-only piece for us.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: So these are more realms that we are exploring and trying to just
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: Cement Beyond the Print Publication.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_02: But basically, we had a long format piece written by Natalie.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's bilingual in English and Spanish.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then we had the short film.
• 52:40
  And we will also be publishing a podcast episode about it more
• 52:44
  in retrospective in
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_02: the near future.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it was like playing with all these different things.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_03: Happy to commit to a podcast.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_02: See, I know.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: It works.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: That is an award.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: And now when the issue five,
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: it's in the printer right now,
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: our next print issue,
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_02: we love to work with little QR codes.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: So now when you open the magazine,
• 53:04
  there's a specific feature in the magazine that relates to the
• 53:09
  film as well in a
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: different way.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: So you can scan the QR code and it takes you to the film.
• 53:14
  So the idea is to...
• 53:16
  Yeah,
• 53:17
  because it's been published,
• 53:18
  it doesn't mean that it's not...
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_02: There's something with these magazines.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's really important.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_03: Everything is evergreen in that sense, isn't it?
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:28
  If I see something interesting,
• 53:31
  I'm always thinking of things that I can push towards Bruna.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_03: She was like, no, that's a trend.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_03: That thing is only going to last.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's not going to last longer.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_02: She's exaggerating.
• 53:48
  I'm not exaggerating because there are things and Bruna has a
• 53:51
  good sense for what's
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_03: going to work.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: But we removed the date.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_02: We used to have the year.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_03: We used to have the year.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because people misunderstood.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, no, no, you can still buy issue one.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's still relevant.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think with digital, there's also that thing.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: even though it always lives there in the digital realm,
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_02: it's like we're trying to do work that is still relevant.
• 54:15
  Sometimes maybe in Argentina on the podcast,
• 54:18
  someone's talking about the price of something.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, okay, fine.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: That is not relevant.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: But that's relevant this week.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: So you know what I mean?
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: So...
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah,
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think with Anchoa,
• 54:30
  I think the digital for us is very important because it can
• 54:33
  converse with the print
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: and to try and unify that,
• 54:37
  how everything is related so people can understand like just a
• 54:41
  holistic perspective,
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_02: which also can be a word that's bastardized,
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: but I don't know another one.
• 54:47
  That's why I love ecology,
• 54:48
  because ecology,
• 54:49
  you have to look at everything to understand.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I think ecology is a word.
• 54:54
  When I started entering into the ecological realm of things,
• 54:56
  I was like,
• 54:57
  this is life.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like everything is ecology in a way,
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: how you should observe things and how every...
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: But I want to get so very...
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: What is your biggest dream with the magazine right now?
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_03: Your biggest dream...
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to be able to continue to do this,
• 55:19
  to continue to work in the multi-format sphere where the
• 55:23
  magazine maybe is like our
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: hero product because it's really hard for it to ever make money.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe sustain it through these digital collaborations,
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: investigations,
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_02: what do they call it?
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_02: Slow journalism?
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that's also like, but something more like that.
• 55:43
  And definitely to continue to grow in Latin America and to try
• 55:48
  and be able to
• 55:50
  participate in helping to tell stories that really are a
• 55:54
  collaboration and bringing
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_02: us together in Latin America.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: For me, that is so important.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_02: And even as an editor.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: when I'm proofreading like pieces that are written maybe in a,
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: someone from Chile versus someone from Colombia versus,
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: and our proofreader,
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: he,
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: the corrector,
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: he is from Argentina and he's having a hard time.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, wait, but this, so we have to put a lot of asterisks.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_02: This is said like this here.
• 56:20
  So I feel like maybe we can get to a point where our corrector
• 56:24
  doesn't feel like,
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: like what is,
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: like more awareness of how our,
• 56:29
  neighbors say things and right right just let people write the
• 56:32
  way they talk and in
• 56:34
  that that's that's hard that's something magazines usually
• 56:39
  don't do like even
• 56:40
  within the united states they like homogenize everything into
• 56:43
  this one language
• 56:44
  when it's traditionally so broken so so broken up and in terms
• 56:50
  of style the way
• 56:50
  people talk and the accents they use the slang they use like in
• 56:55
  latin america it's
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: crazy like
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's like,
• 56:57
  I've had such challenges just like remembering the names for
• 57:02
  different fruits and
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: things from in different places.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm learning Spanish, you know, and for me,
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_03: some of the things I've learned in Argent,
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_03: I see a word written down and I'm like,
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_03: wow,
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_03: that's got a lot more Ls in it than I could have ever imagined,
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_03: like the Argentine pronunciation of words.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_03: So,
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_03: it's one of those things that I think the European,
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_03: I'm trying not to say the European mindset,
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_03: because that's such a piece of language,
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: but they cannot comprehend the size of the continent,
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_03: for example.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: We recently had quite a few friends visit the city,
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_03: and they were talking about nipping to Ecuador or nipping to Colombia,
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_03: and you're like,
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_03: it's actually...
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's a 12-hour flight.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's not close.
• 58:02
  And people ask me how often I go to Colombia,
• 58:08
  like it's the equivalent of London to Barcelona.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_03: And you sort of have to... Yeah, I know.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: You have to put it in perspective.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can walk from London to Barcelona almost.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's how close it is.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: When you look at Europe on a map, that's just like...
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, all these countries by themselves are pretty big.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_03: Well, the perspective is literally incorrect on the map.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, tell me about it.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's like the most fascinating thing.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_01: Don't get me started on that one.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_03: I love the website where you can
• 58:48
  Where you can take the country's outline and move it on the
• 58:52
  projection to another
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_03: country so you can see.
• 58:55
  There are people that think that Colombia is below Mexico,
• 58:58
  like right below Mexico.
• 59:00
  Or people in Argentina that think that Colombia is Central
• 59:04
  America or an island.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's just tropical.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's all that, the same thing.
• 59:10
  And,
• 59:10
  you know,
• 59:11
  we do the same with countries in the Far East that we don't
• 59:15
  know about.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, just look at the map.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's fun.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_03: Look at the map, but don't trust it too much.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_03: Well, update it.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to answer for Bruna,
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_03: but there's definitely something that you're pursuing is more...
• 59:40
  readership outside of Latin America that can start to
• 59:43
  understand these stories and
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_03: respect the stories and the continent.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I wanted to ask about that, actually.
• 59:57
  The decision to be bilingual as of the last issue,
• 1:00:01
  the issue four,
• 1:00:02
  I think,
• 1:00:02
  was the first one.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: What caused that decision to be bilingual?
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_02: Can I tell the honest version?
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_03: No, I think it's important.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_03: European snobbery, like 100%.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_03: That's the only answer really is in the United States,
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_03: it's slightly different where they would stock.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_03: We had stockists in the United States.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 1:00:27
  very friendly in the US when it came to it being a Spanish
• 1:00:30
  publication for us,
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: our experience.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_02: So different than Europe.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_03: But in Britain and in Europe,
• 1:00:38
  we had experiences that you could say were almost outright
• 1:00:43
  aggressive towards the
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_03: idea of stocking a magazine that wasn't in English.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_03: In England,
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_03: you expect that mentality,
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_03: we're pretty awful when it comes to learning other languages.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_03: And we, as a country, somehow decided to leave the European Union.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like, that's Britain, you know?
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_03: But we've had some very funny experiences.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_03: One in... No.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I can't... No.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, really?
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_03: Come on.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_03: Now you have to.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to name in change.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_02: No,
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_03: but one magazine shop in a country where,
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_02: it wasn't,
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_02: it was so bizarre and you go out of your way to get them your copy,
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_02: and it's like literally like sending it through.
• 1:01:39
  paying money to send it and then they get it and they're like
• 1:01:42
  sorry we can't
• 1:01:43
  publish we can't sell something that isn't in english isn't in
• 1:01:46
  english so they're
• 1:01:47
  not in england the owners of the store aren't native to the
• 1:01:51
  country that they're in
• 1:01:53
  either and you just think how have you how do you have the
• 1:01:56
  balls to say this like
• 1:01:59
  the sheer audacity to say like we won't stock that because it's
• 1:02:03
  not in english you
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_03: just think wow
• 1:02:05
  those are moments where I get very frustrated and I try to just
• 1:02:08
  breathe it out.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know what?
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_02: It was not meant to be there.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_02: so then what happened to us was like,
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_02: we weren't getting to places where it's like,
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_02: because we do live half the year in the Northern hemisphere.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like,
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_02: we want the magazine to be,
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_02: for me though,
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_02: it's more important for it to be sold in Latin America.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's a bonus that it can be in the Northern hemisphere.
• 1:02:27
  There is maybe more money there for the magazine to be bought maybe,
• 1:02:31
  or at least at the time.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: But, um,
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_02: And now we have stockists in the UK.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_03: We've had positive experiences as well.
• 1:02:42
  From the get-go,
• 1:02:45
  they were very honest with us and they said,
• 1:02:47
  look,
• 1:02:48
  your magazine is great.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_02: We really like it.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_02: But sadly, we can't stock it.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_02: Let us know when it's bilingual.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I took it
• 1:02:56
  i was like i respect you you know it's great and that was the
• 1:03:00
  issue that's not true
• 1:03:00
  you were offended but it's okay and then for me for a while
• 1:03:09
  there was like no like
• 1:03:11
  we need to make sure that anchoa is in spanish and it was more
• 1:03:15
  of a political thing
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_02: and it was like why can there be like
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_02: Japanese-only magazines.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, wait, wait, wait.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_03: That's a whole other thing.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_03: But that one school, for example, they were good for their word.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_03: They said, come back when you're bilingual.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_03: We came back when you're bilingual.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_03: And they said, great.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they were fantastic.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_03: There was a distributor in Britain who... It's a wild story because we...
• 1:03:40
  We felt like they were really good for us and we really made
• 1:03:43
  the effort to go and
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_03: see them in person and talk to them.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_02: It was very far.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: We traveled all the way there.
• 1:03:50
  And the response came like,
• 1:03:52
  we won't stop this unless it's only in English.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_03: Only, I mean.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_03: They were like, we can't stock bilingual magazines.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_03: And we replied and said, you know, we've been to your store.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_03: We've seen that you have bilingual magazines.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's fine for them to be bilingual in... French or Japanese.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_03: Korean and Japanese were their bilingual publications.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_03: So then you really start to feel like,
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_03: this is a cultural snobbery where in Europe it's very easy to...
• 1:04:26
  to hold Korean or Japanese cultures in,
• 1:04:29
  in some higher regard or some aesthetic regard.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and I use the word aesthetic deliberately.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_03: And we sort of said like,
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_03: these are stories from Latin America told by Latin American journalists.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_03: collaborators.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_03: Why would you think it would be in English?
• 1:04:50
  Why would we do something that the own community wouldn't be
• 1:04:52
  able to access?
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they're bilingual, but it doesn't matter.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the bit where you're just like, okay, you will never win.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_02: Being bilingual is a huge expense for us because we have to,
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_02: of course,
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_02: hire someone who's going to help us in that language.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot more expensive language, usually to have someone to proofread.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's more pages.
• 1:05:15
  We have a whiz here as a designer who has helped it not double
• 1:05:18
  the amount because
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_02: of his amazing grid.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's a big complicated thing.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just about, oh, we are too lazy or we don't want.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, it's an investment.
• 1:05:27
  And when you go and do that and you travel really far to bring
• 1:05:31
  them the magazine
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_02: and then they're like,
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_02: sorry,
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_02: make it only.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_02: I just say, when I get upset there, I'm like, no.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_00: quite incredible oh my god um but you do want people outside of the
• 1:05:44
  spanish-speaking world to read it right like so i mean there
• 1:05:48
  has to be some of it
• 1:05:49
  too right like you do want this kind of understanding to reach
• 1:05:55
  the rest of the
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_00: world i assume yeah
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_03: You do, but when you realize that there is a gatekeeper there.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_03: The distributor, the point of contact.
• 1:06:11
  We found another friend of ours who publishes these beautiful books,
• 1:06:14
  all in English.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_02: He was told that his books were too commercial.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_02: So we understand that maybe there's a specific situation with that.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_03: No,
• 1:06:24
  but you have somebody who really is a gatekeeper and they're
• 1:06:27
  deciding this is not
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_03: something that we think,
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_03: that we even want to attempt to sell.
• 1:06:35
  These are not stories that we even want to attempt to
• 1:06:38
  distribute and sell.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_02: And if I may add, there are other gatekeepers.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_02: For example,
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_02: here in Argentina,
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_02: we've had situations where when we try to access the sphere of like,
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_02: arte impreso like printed art which is like these fairs of like very very
• 1:06:55
  independent publishing so because we're gastronomy we are
• 1:06:59
  shunned as well like it's
• 1:07:00
  like gastronomy shouldn't enter this space maybe there it's
• 1:07:03
  like if my magazine is
• 1:07:04
  only anthropology so we're also constantly trying to enter like
• 1:07:07
  spaces and we get
• 1:07:08
  gatekeeper because it's like either no gastronomy no like food
• 1:07:11
  has a thing where
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_02: they see it as like maybe obvious or I don't know
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it's funny.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_02: It happens in both hemispheres in different ways.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, I just keep trying.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_02: I email people all the time.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't have a distributor.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_02: But we've gotten to get the magazine into really beautiful places.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I hope I'm pushing to get it everywhere.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because just like here,
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_02: in Argentina or in other Spanish-speaking countries,
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_02: there's a lot of people who speak English.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_02: And they consume magazines from abroad.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_02: Have you seen this magazine?
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe Anchoa can also do the inverse, maybe.
• 1:07:49
  And we have a beautiful group of friends in the UK that make me
• 1:07:54
  feel like it's
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_02: possible because they show it to other friends and people are interested.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's one dream, Juliana.
• 1:08:03
  We can have more stockists and more readership in the Northern
• 1:08:07
  Hemisphere too.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that, yeah.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's the big dream.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a bit frightened to say it.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_02: I hope I don't have to say it, no?
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_02: Send it into the world.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_01: No,
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_01: I got us talking an idea about,
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: talking about commodities and advertisement,
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_01: which,
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_01: it's always a question.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_01: It seems to me that the things that...
• 1:08:40
  make a community viable or that holds together a community or
• 1:08:46
  things that are meaningful,
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: that have intrinsic value,
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_01: like these contents,
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: meaning,
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: meaning,
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_01: wherever it's meaning.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think advertisement or commodities
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_01: are the things that symbolize something,
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_01: success or,
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: purchasing power or all these things,
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_01: but they don't have meaning by themselves.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, there is a big difference.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: Those things alienate people in the end,
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_01: when people keep just getting,
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_01: doing that.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I wonder if,
• 1:09:30
  there is a way for readers and audiences to be more thoughtful
• 1:09:38
  about where they
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_01: invest their money because,
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_01: money is there.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: We all have to use it.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_01: But the more people support projects like this or NICs,
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: the soap stack,
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_01: so that's how we're putting your money in a different place,
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_01: which is not,
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_01: should I really have to replace my jacket or do I need,
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_01: a new pair of pants?
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, I want to consume meaning.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_01: my wish,
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_01: my dream,
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_01: if I can have a dream today,
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_01: is what if instead of consuming commodities,
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_01: which is only making people sadder and emptier,
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_01: I put my money in things that have meaning by themselves.
• 1:10:20
  And it's the only way,
• 1:10:21
  it's the only viable way,
• 1:10:23
  it's the only way of surviving.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_01: And this community, that's what being in a community means.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:10:32
  I got stuck in that idea when you said communities and then I
• 1:10:35
  was talking about
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_01: advertisement and yeah.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_02: No, this issue, one of the themes is community as resistance.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_02: So like working together is really resistant.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_02: No, they don't.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_02: They want you to be segmented and alone and sorry.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_01: And for people to understand that meaning is the thing that makes you,
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_01: it's the only fulfilling thing.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's not consumption for the sake of it.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't, it's just not real.
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, I don't know.
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 1:11:18
  I think there's a few pieces maybe that we've published online
• 1:11:23
  that fit that,
• 1:11:24
  where they're quite specific pieces about a ritual of food or
• 1:11:30
  of community.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_03: And those decisions are really important,
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_03: whether just deciding to support your local business rather than
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_03: you know, rather than go to the chain.
• 1:11:46
  That's always the most,
• 1:11:47
  that's always like the first most important,
• 1:11:49
  like foot out the door.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_03: And can that translate into media as well,
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_03: where people are supporting smaller media organisations?
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'm,
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_03: I have a few that I sign up to where they only want £2 a month.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I can give you £2 a month.
• 1:12:07
  Yeah,
• 1:12:08
  if you organise your budget,
• 1:12:10
  it's not that hard to support 10,
• 1:12:13
  20 projects.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I cancel my subscription to...
• 1:12:19
  the athletic you know the football publications since it went
• 1:12:22
  to the new york times
• 1:12:23
  i'm like you don't need my money anymore um and i think that
• 1:12:27
  then i've got you know
• 1:12:28
  eight more pounds i can give to somebody who's doing an
• 1:12:31
  independent news project
• 1:12:32
  you know yeah um there's definitely you have to be careful
• 1:12:37
  about the context of
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_02: expect also i think it's so great to support but
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_02: For example,
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_02: in Argentina,
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_02: for me,
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_02: at first,
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_02: maybe when I was living mostly in the UK and then I came here,
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_02: I was like,
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_02: you have to support this.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then you start realizing,
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_02: you have to be careful because not everyone can support that,
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, definitely.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I've always,
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_02: from Anchoa,
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_02: shied away from telling you,
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_02: go consume this,
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_02: this,
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_02: and this,
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_02: because...
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's a great business model.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_03: We don't want to ask people for money.
• 1:13:05
  We don't want to ask money from...
• 1:13:07
  No,
• 1:13:08
  it's been my problem for my whole life,
• 1:13:10
  so...
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_03: from people and brands.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's not sustainable.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_02: No, Juliana said it perfectly.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_02: For me, it's about the ideas and what that can bring.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know,
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_02: for me,
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_02: it really always was about like the pleasure in food,
• 1:13:28
  but the pleasure in understanding food or knowing more about
• 1:13:30
  food and how hopefully
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_02: we believe our readers have the capacity to be like,
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to find restaurants on my own that sort of
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_02: rather than us coming,
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_02: being like,
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_02: this is the list,
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_02: or this is where,
• 1:13:42
  which I think a glossary of where to find things can be really
• 1:13:45
  useful as well.
• 1:13:46
  I'm just a bit frightened of doing that because what if I
• 1:13:50
  recommend something that
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't done my due diligence to make sure that owner- You feel the
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_03: responsibility greatly in that,
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_03: don't you,
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_03: of endorsing things?
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'd rather like endorse, like,
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_02: different points of view maybe.
• 1:14:04
  And,
• 1:14:06
  but yeah,
• 1:14:06
  I would love to,
• 1:14:07
  I always was,
• 1:14:08
  I think that you vote with your plate,
• 1:14:10
  right?
• 1:14:10
  SPEAKER_02: Especially those people who have more disposable income and can really,
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_02: that is a very,
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_02: it's a responsibility.
• 1:14:17
  And I think there's a community-based power there and those
• 1:14:21
  people who can spend and dictate.
• 1:14:22
  And that's why for me,
• 1:14:24
  Anchoa was always about talking to people who aren't of the niche.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_02: It is a niche, but it's always about like, hmm,
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_02: You never thought about this.
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why I always say,
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_02: I try to get it into spaces,
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_02: like maybe someone buys it because it's a nice table book,
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_02: maybe,
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_02: or a coffee table book,
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_02: and they didn't read it.
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I know that maybe a friend will come by and open it,
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 1:14:45
  and maybe that for me is enough to slowly help show different
• 1:14:50
  perspectives and to
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_02: bring stories that are not welcome into new spaces.
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_02: where they should be.
• 1:14:56
  That for me,
• 1:14:57
  I used to say we were a fly on the wall,
• 1:14:58
  but then I think,
• 1:14:59
  Max,
• 1:14:59
  you corrected me.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_02: This is a bit like, who do we think we are?
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's just an analogy.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_03: The Trojan horse.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_02: The Trojan horse.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_03: The fly on the wall is what you mean.
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, yeah.
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_03: The Trojan horses.
• 1:15:09
  And sometimes we've started getting from like furniture stores
• 1:15:12
  where like,
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_02: we would like it in our showroom.
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, hmm, okay, well, why not?
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like, it's about entering these new spaces.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_02: And do they know that there's a piece about Patagonian genocide?
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean?
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like,
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that is very valuable.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_03: No,
• 1:15:33
  it is an important point and strategy of looking a certain way
• 1:15:38
  of making a luxury
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_03: product and making something that looks pleasant on the eye
• 1:15:45
  where we've considered the typography and the illustration and
• 1:15:48
  the photography,
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_03: where it's not a wall of words that people aren't going to engage with,
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_03: where it invites the reader in in different ways.
• 1:15:57
  Those are the things we've considered in the print product so
• 1:16:01
  that it can sit in a luxury,
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_03: in a quote-unquote luxury space.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_02: a museum or a shop at a museum or,
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_02: places that are very aesthetic and tend to have pictures or...
• 1:16:14
  SPEAKER_02: books about architecture and then suddenly there's this.
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_02: But also conscious about wanting to reach it.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_02: It shouldn't just go to a certain demographic, the magazine.
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_02: We're really conscious about at what price we sell it here in Argentina.
• 1:16:28
  You go to a store like Zara in Argentina and a shirt is more
• 1:16:32
  expensive than in other countries.
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_02: A white shirt is going to cost you, I don't know.
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_03: Four times as much.
• 1:16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Four times as much as our magazine.
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_02: And our magazine is still not just like 30,000 pesos, give or take.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_02: That is about $28, which is expensive.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, in Spain, it'd be like, oh, that's too expensive.
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it's interesting, the market, all of that that you have to consider.
• 1:16:51
  But for me,
• 1:16:52
  I don't want it to be seen as a product that is for a certain view.
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_02: Pero, we also, he's a designer.
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_02: We do like to make something pretty or not pretty, pretty, but you know,
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_02: an object, there was always an idea of the object, responsibility.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a craft.
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_03: And the community, like tying back into
• 1:17:19
  your question yeah there's a there is a community of people who
• 1:17:23
  really appreciate
• 1:17:23
  that we've made something yeah like it's very nice that we've
• 1:17:29
  that we've because
• 1:17:30
  there's a certain like uh deference that you pay when you make
• 1:17:35
  something you know
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_03: when you really put um
• 1:17:40
  your passion and your finances and your time into making
• 1:17:45
  something that you really
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_03: sincerely hope people will receive as something quality.
• 1:17:49
  And we've had a really nice response of people who are...
• 1:17:56
  They're really happy.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, thank you for doing this in Argentina.
• 1:17:59
  The Argentine has a thing of like,
• 1:18:00
  oh,
• 1:18:01
  this would never exist in Argentina.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's some...
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just so... And the people we've met, the community we've built.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_02: For me, this magazine changed my life.
• 1:18:11
  I don't mind that it doesn't make my...
• 1:18:12
  Like for me,
• 1:18:13
  it gives me so much...
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_02: Currency in the community.
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_03: Community, that's the question.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_03: And it really is like,
• 1:18:20
  there's a community of people who are so generous and there are
• 1:18:24
  ways in which,
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:18:26
  you might not be able to have the success that you can have
• 1:18:30
  when the community
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_03: support you.
• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_03: And it's small things like saying, oh, we'll host your launch.
• 1:18:36
  SPEAKER_03: And when, you know, and yeah, and people are very generous in that sense.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the people who come to cook and people who,
• 1:18:46
  SPEAKER_03: who share their time,
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_03: people who share their space,
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_03: their resources,
• 1:18:51
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:18:51
  and those acts of generosity are part of being in a community
• 1:18:58
  that really make it possible.
• 1:18:59
  Like it wouldn't be possible to launch the magazine without the
• 1:19:03
  annual support from
• 1:19:04
  SPEAKER_03: people who,
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_03: yeah.
• 1:19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
• 1:19:08
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're hoping to continue to build community,
• 1:19:12
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:19:12
  SPEAKER_02: we,
• 1:19:14
  SPEAKER_02: someone from Puerto Rico who has Oloteca San Miguel,
• 1:19:17
  they found us and we stuck the magazine there and we've always
• 1:19:21
  been talking about
• 1:19:22
  SPEAKER_02: doing the feature and now we've made a feature in Puerto Rico.
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's like,
• 1:19:26
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:19:26
  there's these people who find you and then you start having
• 1:19:29
  these friendships with
• 1:19:30
  people you've never physically met and it's just so beautiful
• 1:19:33
  and I can't wait to
• 1:19:35
  SPEAKER_02: do like little launch events around other countries.
• 1:19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that's something I really visualize in my head and I hope
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Anchoa can move beyond and enter other communities.
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_03: There were people we met through the magazine at our wedding.
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Anchoa was mentioned a lot.
• 1:19:53
  Like to the point where I mentioned it in my wedding speech and
• 1:19:56
  like someone,
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_02: like the printer saw it and they're like,
• 1:19:59
  SPEAKER_02: you mentioned us in the speech.
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_03: Didn't get any sales at the wedding, did we?
• 1:20:04
  SPEAKER_02: No, no sales.
• 1:20:04
  SPEAKER_03: No sales at the wedding.
• 1:20:06
  SPEAKER_03: Didn't have a card terminal at the wedding.
• 1:20:08
  SPEAKER_02: We should have.
• 1:20:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we should have.
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Bruna, Max, it's been a pleasure speaking with you both.
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Congrats on everything.
• 1:20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll keep watching and see what you guys do.
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 1:20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_02: Such a pleasure.
• 1:20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:20:25
  SPEAKER_02: And your piece is coming out soon.
• 1:20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, great.
• 1:20:28
  SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to see it.
• 1:20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thanks to you, really.
• 1:20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, everyone, for listening.
• 1:20:38
  I hope you enjoyed that interview with Bruna Fontovecchia and
• 1:20:43
  Max Wilson from
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Anchoa Magazine in Argentina.
• 1:20:46
  SPEAKER_00: You can find out more about the magazine.
• 1:20:48
  Just go to anchoamagazine.com or look for them on Instagram or
• 1:20:54
  at small bookstores
• 1:20:56
  SPEAKER_00: around the world.
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't subscribed to the newsletter yet,
• 1:21:01
  SPEAKER_00: please go to neworder.com or look for New Order on Substack.
• 1:21:05
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• 1:21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Also help share us whenever you can.
• 1:21:09
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• 1:21:12
  it really helps us get found and helps us keep this going for a
• 1:21:19
  much longer time.
• 1:21:20
  And a big thank you to my friend Pat Buzzard for providing the
• 1:21:23
  music to the show.
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, everyone.