Latest / To All the Men I've Tolerated Before / Replay: The Royal Family

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Replay: The Royal Family · To All the Men I've Tolerated Before

0:21
Speaker 1: Ay Tolerators listens to all the men I've tolerated before
0:24
Speaker 1: with Anthony Katona, your weekly look at everyday misogyny. I
0:29
Speaker 1: have a new friend today. There have been a lot
0:31
Speaker 1: of new friends for two all the men I've tolerated
0:33
Speaker 1: before in twenty twenty four. Kristen is a pop culture critic,
0:38
Speaker 1: a royal watcher, and health journalist. She hosts The Daily Veil,
0:44
Speaker 1: a podcast that dissects and laughs at the tabloid news
0:48
Speaker 1: and also the best person that I have met so
0:53
Speaker 1: far through our friend christ de Rosa.
0:57
Speaker 2: Oh stop that, because Kristen is all the.
0:59
Speaker 3: Best, knows all the people.
1:00
Speaker 1: And today we are finally doing the episode I've been
1:03
Speaker 1: secretly craving to do. We're going to talk about misogyny
1:07
Speaker 1: and how it relates to the royal family. Thank you
1:10
Speaker 1: so much for this lovely opportunity.
1:14
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I am so excited to talk about this,
1:17
Speaker 2: and honestly, I think you are the first podcast host
1:20
Speaker 2: who's invited me on to talk exclusively about this topic.
1:24
Speaker 2: I've talked a lot about racism, I've talked a lot
1:26
Speaker 2: about classism, I've talked about colonialism, But misogyny is real
1:31
Speaker 2: with these people, and I'm so excited to talk about
1:33
Speaker 2: it with you because you're so smart and funny and
1:36
Speaker 2: you're you're you're just the best person to have this
1:38
Speaker 2: conversation with.
1:39
Speaker 1: So thank you, Oh my goodness, thank you. I find
1:42
Speaker 1: that so hard to believe that no one has ever
1:44
Speaker 1: went into at least take one look at this when
1:48
Speaker 1: they're inviting you onto a show.
1:50
Speaker 3: Because every episode.
1:52
Speaker 1: I've listened to The Daily Fail, you have made a
1:54
Speaker 1: point or your co host has made a point to
1:56
Speaker 1: be like, this is something that they do too women
2:00
Speaker 1: with like capitolized w.
2:05
Speaker 2: Yes. And I'm not saying misogyny doesn't come up in
2:08
Speaker 2: various conversations. I'm saying the fact that that is the
2:11
Speaker 2: main reason we're having this conversation, and.
2:14
Speaker 3: I love it.
2:15
Speaker 2: I love that that's what you want to talk about today.
2:18
Speaker 1: Well, let's have the listeners get to know you a
2:20
Speaker 1: little bit more. Could you give us a background on
2:23
Speaker 1: how one becomes a Royal Watcher, because I know that
2:27
Speaker 1: I am a Royal Watcher, but I'm not a very
2:31
Speaker 1: official royal watcher.
2:34
Speaker 2: It's hard to be somebody who lives in our world
2:37
Speaker 2: or who engages with pop culture. It's hard to be
2:40
Speaker 2: that kind of person and not have a little bit
2:42
Speaker 2: of exposure to the Royals. It's kind of like I
2:45
Speaker 2: see it similarly to the Kardashians. Whether you want to
2:49
Speaker 2: or not, you're keeping up with them if you follow
2:50
Speaker 2: pop culture, right, I keep up with the Kardashians whether
2:53
Speaker 2: I want to or not, and I kind of see
2:55
Speaker 2: the Royals the same way. If you like pop culture
2:58
Speaker 2: in any way, you can't look at a magazine cover,
3:01
Speaker 2: a blog, a twitter feed, Instagram without getting some sort
3:05
Speaker 2: of idea of what's happening with them. You know, bits
3:09
Speaker 2: and pieces of this scandal or that scandal. We as
3:12
Speaker 2: a society, even those who don't follow pop culture, we
3:15
Speaker 2: have ideas of who the good guys and the bad
3:17
Speaker 2: guys are. We know who the queen is, we know
3:19
Speaker 2: who Camilla is, we know who Diana is of we
3:23
Speaker 2: know who the major players are, right, And I definitely
3:26
Speaker 2: grew up in a household that followed those things. My
3:29
Speaker 2: mom was an anglophile, my nana read the tabloids. I
3:33
Speaker 2: learned to read with the help of the National Inquirer
3:36
Speaker 2: and Star as a little kid, And the very first time,
3:39
Speaker 2: as a wee little kid, I even saw a wedding cartoon,
3:44
Speaker 2: live action, real life, or otherwise was watching Princess Die
3:47
Speaker 2: and Charles get married on TV, or I should say
3:50
Speaker 2: recaps of it, because I don't think I was up
3:51
Speaker 2: at like two in the morning watching that as a
3:53
Speaker 2: little kid. But so the Royals were always kind of
3:57
Speaker 2: in the backdrop of my life, and I continued to
4:02
Speaker 2: follow them the older I got, the you know, I
4:04
Speaker 2: did a study abroad in England at one point, and
4:06
Speaker 2: I got to see the last royal engagement in which
4:10
Speaker 2: Princess Di and Charles attended together. That was the fiftieth
4:13
Speaker 2: anniversary of Vjday, and I followed them closely just as
4:18
Speaker 2: a hobby, along with all the other celebrities I watched.
4:21
Speaker 2: And then when I was working in public radio, I
4:26
Speaker 2: was a pop culture producer and I just happened to be,
4:31
Speaker 2: you know, there at the same time when William and
4:33
Speaker 2: Kate got engaged, and I was fortunate enough to cover
4:37
Speaker 2: all the street parties that were happening in New York
4:39
Speaker 2: City and celebration of their marriage, and from there I
4:43
Speaker 2: just continued covering them here and there, and then when
4:47
Speaker 2: Meghan and Harry got engaged, I ended up hosting a
4:51
Speaker 2: podcast called when Meghan met Harry, and that podcast began
4:55
Speaker 2: right around the time they got engaged, and it culminated
4:58
Speaker 2: with my co host and I actually attend their wedding
5:00
Speaker 2: in Windsor, and that show really resulted in me being
5:07
Speaker 2: more regularly on the scene as a royal watcher. And
5:11
Speaker 2: ever since that podcast, I've been many times more times
5:14
Speaker 2: than I can count on the BBC, the CBC, CNN,
5:19
Speaker 2: many print outlets. I'd been in maybe somewhere between a
5:22
Speaker 2: half a dozen and a dozen documentaries at this point
5:25
Speaker 2: on TLC, on different networks, NBC and so on. So
5:30
Speaker 2: I probably give somewhere between oh gosh, during a really
5:34
Speaker 2: busy year, at least fifty interviews a year now about
5:37
Speaker 2: the Royals.
5:38
Speaker 1: I I am just so geeked because it's so funny
5:44
Speaker 1: because my mom had to explain to me in my
5:46
Speaker 1: twenties that I do not, in fact have memories of
5:51
Speaker 1: Charles and Diana's wedding, like I believe that I have memories,
5:54
Speaker 1: like I also was very involved, and she goes, no,
5:59
Speaker 1: You've just always have been watching, like h ones I
6:02
Speaker 1: love the seventies or I love the eighties, and she goes,
6:06
Speaker 1: you watch a lot of pop culture focused TV. Therefore
6:10
Speaker 1: you believe you've seen these things and are an expert.
6:15
Speaker 1: She did let me have Diana's funeral, She goes, you
6:17
Speaker 1: probably do have memories for when Princess Diana died. And
6:22
Speaker 1: then in college, we did stay up till three am
6:25
Speaker 1: for William and Kate's wedding and we went to our
6:29
Speaker 1: senior banquet was that night, and we went to senior
6:32
Speaker 1: banquet in full like formal wear and fascinators, and when
6:37
Speaker 1: people nice and when people were like, for why, and
6:40
Speaker 1: I was like, it is the royal wedding day and
6:43
Speaker 1: this is just a blip on what I have to
6:45
Speaker 1: be involved in today.
6:50
Speaker 2: It was a big deal at the time. I mean,
6:52
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people forget because Kate does
6:55
Speaker 2: walk the line. She's very conventional. She you know, she
7:00
Speaker 2: doesn't make waves. She's the most I mean this in
7:06
Speaker 2: not an insulting way. I don't mean it in that way.
7:08
Speaker 2: But she's the least controversial princess they ever could have
7:11
Speaker 2: hoped for, right, and I think we forget that at
7:13
Speaker 2: the time, it was a big deal. She technically, while
7:16
Speaker 2: being filthy rich, was not technically aristocracy. She was the
7:20
Speaker 2: first college educated future Queen. It was a big deal
7:23
Speaker 2: at the time, and it was the closest we had
7:27
Speaker 2: seen really to This is kind of like a Cinderella
7:31
Speaker 2: story because even though the press liked to present Diana
7:35
Speaker 2: as if she was a Cinderella story, she was aristocracy.
7:38
Speaker 2: She was, you know, kind of related to the royals already.
7:43
Speaker 2: You know, it's you know, she was a very very
7:46
Speaker 2: distant cousin of all of them anyway, and whereas Kate,
7:50
Speaker 2: she was quote middle class, yes, a multi millionaire, but still,
7:57
Speaker 2: you know, not old money and so on. And it
8:00
Speaker 2: was a big deal that she was university educated.
8:03
Speaker 1: I know that I've talked about this before on another
8:06
Speaker 1: podcast where we were covering the Tutors, but I believe
8:09
Speaker 1: that Diana was a direct descendant or at least a
8:12
Speaker 1: cousin of Anne Boleyn Am I getting that correct?
8:15
Speaker 2: Correct? You know? I think that might be right. I
8:22
Speaker 2: forget how far back everybody goes and who's exactly related
8:27
Speaker 2: to who. But yes, and one thing I also love,
8:31
Speaker 2: just as a side note, not everybody knows this, but
8:33
Speaker 2: Princess Die's grandmother was an American. She was a dollar
8:36
Speaker 2: bride or what do they call them? A dollar princess.
8:41
Speaker 2: So I'm not sure if you know that term, but
8:45
Speaker 2: she was somebody who was her grandmother was part of
8:50
Speaker 2: the old money set, or I'm sorry, it might be
8:51
Speaker 2: her great grandmother. Her family was part of the new
8:55
Speaker 2: money set in the US, you know, like the Vanderbilts,
9:00
Speaker 2: the Fisks, all that new money and a lot of
9:04
Speaker 2: those people who are trying to social climb the new
9:06
Speaker 2: money and weren't being accepted by the old money in
9:09
Speaker 2: the States, like the Astors. They would marry off their
9:12
Speaker 2: daughters to people who were titled in the UK, and
9:16
Speaker 2: that way they could get some sort of prestige, like oh,
9:19
Speaker 2: I'm titled. And then these old lords and dukes that
9:23
Speaker 2: they would marry just because they lived a life of
9:27
Speaker 2: leisure and never made money themselves. They needed that influx
9:30
Speaker 2: of money to keep their castles afloat and so on,
9:32
Speaker 2: and to keep their lifestyles going. So Princess died descended
9:36
Speaker 2: from some you know, some of that new money from
9:40
Speaker 2: the US. She is part of a marria.
9:41
Speaker 1: My goodness, I've never known that even with the release
9:44
Speaker 1: of that new Prime show The Buccaneers and when they're
9:47
Speaker 1: that's the whole plot of the show is English aristocle
9:51
Speaker 1: I see coming over to get American brides. That is
9:57
Speaker 1: never that's fascinating. I oh, thank you so much for
10:00
Speaker 1: that little to admit, yes.
10:04
Speaker 2: I think that sometimes the Brits wonder like, oh, why
10:07
Speaker 2: do Americans even care about all of this stuff? And
10:09
Speaker 2: it's like, well, we are all related to each other,
10:12
Speaker 2: we all intermarry each other. Yes, we kicked you out
10:15
Speaker 2: of the US, all of you, but we still you know,
10:19
Speaker 2: we're still related, We're still cousins.
10:20
Speaker 1: Well, and it is you use the term Cinderella when
10:24
Speaker 1: you're a little girl growing up in America, and if
10:28
Speaker 1: you were, especially a millennial little girl growing up growing
10:31
Speaker 1: up in America. My sister jokes that everyone goes through
10:35
Speaker 1: these three phases and I just never dropped them.
10:39
Speaker 3: She goes, she or she will say, she goes.
10:42
Speaker 1: Every young girl had one.
10:43
Speaker 3: Of these phases.
10:44
Speaker 1: They had a tutor phase, they had a Princess die phase,
10:47
Speaker 1: and they had a Greek mythology phase. You grabbed on
10:50
Speaker 1: to all three and then you made them your entire personality.
10:53
Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, I did, and thank you.
10:59
Speaker 2: But it's hard to avoid. It's really presented to us
11:03
Speaker 2: from a very young age as a fantasy that we
11:06
Speaker 2: as girls should latch onto.
11:09
Speaker 1: It was the closest thing we had to Disney livelihood.
11:12
Speaker 1: And but then you become a woman in your thirties
11:16
Speaker 1: and you turn on Netflix and you go, I don't
11:18
Speaker 1: remember Charles being that good looking, and I doubt he
11:22
Speaker 1: was that kind or romantic.
11:28
Speaker 2: You know, When I think of Charles, I think of
11:31
Speaker 2: a guy who, you know, he was in his thirties
11:36
Speaker 2: and he got married to a girl who was, you know,
11:40
Speaker 2: just a few days into being twenty years old. When
11:43
Speaker 2: they got engaged, she was a teenager. They'd only gone
11:45
Speaker 2: out on maybe somewhere between half a dozen and a
11:48
Speaker 2: dozen dates at that point. They got engaged when she
11:51
Speaker 2: was a teenager and he was in his thirties, and
11:52
Speaker 2: then they got married. And I think, you know what,
11:56
Speaker 2: if I had anybody in my life who was a
11:59
Speaker 2: night ten year old girl and a thirty two year
12:01
Speaker 2: old dude was dating her, I'd be like, I don't
12:08
Speaker 2: know about that. I don't know if this is the
12:11
Speaker 2: great romance. You're not old enough to go to a
12:13
Speaker 2: bar in England. You are, you're old enough to go
12:16
Speaker 2: to a bar when you're nineteen, but you know, in
12:18
Speaker 2: a lot of the world you're not, and you're essentially
12:21
Speaker 2: a kid, like last year you were in high school, right,
12:25
Speaker 2: And so I have a personal issue with that. I
12:28
Speaker 2: know other people are like, oh, it's only like thirteen
12:31
Speaker 2: years difference, but to me, it's like, that's that's a
12:36
Speaker 2: big age difference.
12:36
Speaker 1: I always get hung up on the bath because a
12:39
Speaker 1: thirteen year age difference might not be the biggest thing
12:43
Speaker 1: in the world when you were twenty seven, but when
12:47
Speaker 1: you're nineteen and that's when your relationship starts, then I'm like, okay,
12:52
Speaker 1: but then you were twenties are robbed of you honing
12:56
Speaker 1: a personality and gaining be towards what you would actually
13:01
Speaker 1: want and what your values are going to be, because
13:05
Speaker 1: now you're a wife, and you're a wife in the
13:09
Speaker 1: royal family. And I'm sure that she had her own
13:12
Speaker 1: pressures in her own family about what, you know, the
13:16
Speaker 1: rules of her the roles in her life are going
13:18
Speaker 1: to be. But to then add on, I couldn't imagine
13:22
Speaker 1: being a queen at twenty I'll just say it, like, yeah.
13:29
Speaker 2: On the world stage, being probably the most photographed woman
13:32
Speaker 2: in the world at the time, and you're literally not
13:35
Speaker 2: old enough to rent a car yet for another five years,
13:38
Speaker 2: and oh gosh, now you're a mom too. Oh, now
13:40
Speaker 2: you're a mom again, And all of that happening with
13:44
Speaker 2: all of this weight on your shoulders. To be presenting
13:48
Speaker 2: what Britishness is to the world, to be representing the monarchy,
13:52
Speaker 2: to be representing history as well as fairy tale. It's
13:56
Speaker 2: a lot of work to do all of that, and
13:59
Speaker 2: to do while you're married to a man who's actually
14:02
Speaker 2: not even in love with you but in love with
14:04
Speaker 2: somebody else. It just sounds terrible. It's a terrible thing.
14:08
Speaker 2: It's like the worst version of I'm not sure if
14:11
Speaker 2: this happened to you, but a lot of women, including myself,
14:16
Speaker 2: we dated duds when we were teenagers, right, We dated
14:19
Speaker 2: guys who didn't treat us well. We put up with
14:21
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff because, oh, we should just try harder,
14:25
Speaker 2: I should be a nice girl. Oh a boyfriend's a
14:27
Speaker 2: great thing to have. What can I do to make
14:29
Speaker 2: this work? And meanwhile, the guy's being a jerk, or
14:32
Speaker 2: maybe he's running around on us, and she is doing
14:35
Speaker 2: that only on the world stage in one of the
14:39
Speaker 2: oldest institutions in the world. So I think, oh my god,
14:42
Speaker 2: she's like my whole college year, my whole college life
14:45
Speaker 2: experience times a gazillion. And it's not something that she
14:50
Speaker 2: can just run away from or dump that guy or
14:54
Speaker 2: just bitch to whoever she wants to about how shitty
14:56
Speaker 2: it is, because anytime she opens her mouth, she might be,
14:59
Speaker 2: you know, recorded, somebody might be spying on her. She
15:02
Speaker 2: has to be careful about who she, you know, vents
15:07
Speaker 2: to or seeks advice from. It's not as simple as
15:10
Speaker 2: the rest of us when we're that age in university.
15:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, I call that effect of dating the dead. That's
15:16
Speaker 1: the closest one to you, the arms length effect where
15:18
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, why have you been dating him so long?
15:22
Speaker 1: And it's like, well, he's right, he's right there, Like
15:25
Speaker 1: I don't I don't even have to leave the room
15:27
Speaker 1: to try and find someone else, because look, there he is.
15:30
Speaker 3: And it does happen a.
15:31
Speaker 1: Lot when you're a teenager, because you're sitting in desks
15:34
Speaker 1: in rows near one another. It's all that proximity.
15:40
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it's proximity. And it's also that we haven't
15:44
Speaker 2: learned how to stand up for ourselves yet. We also
15:47
Speaker 2: haven't learned what we are worthy of. Necessarily, I think
15:53
Speaker 2: that there is a point when we're all young children
15:56
Speaker 2: and we're told a lot of us if we're lucky,
15:58
Speaker 2: that oh, you can do anything, you can do it,
16:01
Speaker 2: you're capable, just try harder. And then we enter adolescents,
16:06
Speaker 2: and that gradually starts getting beaten out of us. No,
16:09
Speaker 2: you're too ugly, No you're to this, you're to that,
16:12
Speaker 2: you're not enough of this, and it starts to get
16:15
Speaker 2: beaten out of us, and products get sold to us
16:17
Speaker 2: to fix things that are supposedly wrong with us, or
16:20
Speaker 2: supposedly the wrong size. Our skin is wrong, our hair
16:23
Speaker 2: is wrong, everything's wrong with us. We're too loud or
16:26
Speaker 2: we're too quiet, or to this or to that. And
16:29
Speaker 2: I think it becomes easy for us to not know
16:33
Speaker 2: our worth, because that little kid's self worth that, you know,
16:36
Speaker 2: the three year old who jumps off the top of
16:39
Speaker 2: the stairs and yells, I can do it, look at
16:41
Speaker 2: me fly, That little kid has been beaten down and
16:45
Speaker 2: beaten to death. And so by the time we do
16:48
Speaker 2: start dating, it's easy to think, oh, I'm lucky just
16:51
Speaker 2: to have someone, even if he treats me like crap.
16:53
Speaker 1: That's very well said and something that has been discussed
16:57
Speaker 1: on this podcast.
16:58
Speaker 3: Almost every episode.
16:59
Speaker 1: It's amazing how we'll be talking about something that you
17:03
Speaker 1: would think has nothing to do with dating. It could
17:06
Speaker 1: be women's health care or something, and it all relates
17:10
Speaker 1: back to, well, I never pushed against the doctor because
17:14
Speaker 1: I haven't been trained to push against people and to
17:18
Speaker 1: ask for what I want. And then an anecdote comes
17:21
Speaker 1: up about your dating life or the way that someone
17:25
Speaker 1: talked to you as a kid. And when Diana did
17:28
Speaker 1: arrive at the age or at the bravery or the
17:31
Speaker 1: maturity to push back, she wasn't pushing back against her
17:35
Speaker 1: in laws. She was pushing against the institution and begging
17:41
Speaker 1: reporters to let her sons walk into their first day
17:44
Speaker 1: of school without being bothered.
17:48
Speaker 2: The consequences of, you know, putting up with or not
17:52
Speaker 2: knowing her worth were enormous, and you know that they
17:59
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to minimize what the rest of us
18:01
Speaker 2: went through when we were teenagers or in our early twenties,
18:04
Speaker 2: because a lot of us went through just absolutely terrible,
18:07
Speaker 2: reprehensible things. But she was going through it while people
18:11
Speaker 2: were profiting off of it and eating it up, and
18:15
Speaker 2: millions of dollars were being made with each photograph that
18:18
Speaker 2: was being taken of her career. It was not on
18:22
Speaker 2: a level that most of us deal with, where what
18:25
Speaker 2: we're dealing with is also commodified in that way.
18:28
Speaker 1: And when you start to put out these defense mechanisms
18:33
Speaker 1: like believing that your phone is being tapped, or being
18:36
Speaker 1: really choosy about who you're sharing things with, or not
18:39
Speaker 1: writing anything down or not sharing things with people, it's
18:44
Speaker 1: another And I think we saw this with Britney Spears's
18:47
Speaker 1: memoir and her father. That also, the way that you've
18:51
Speaker 1: become almost paranoid about your own existence and what is
18:55
Speaker 1: actually going on around you becomes another tool in the
19:00
Speaker 1: toolbell that they used to discredit you to be like, well,
19:03
Speaker 1: if you were smiling more or warmer or whatever, Charles
19:08
Speaker 1: would be happy to be on this yacht with you.
19:13
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think it's interesting you brought up the
19:15
Speaker 2: word paranoia, because paranoia, to me, usually means that it's
19:20
Speaker 2: something that's in your head and it's not based in
19:23
Speaker 2: real fact or doesn't have a foundation. But in both
19:26
Speaker 2: Britney spears case and Diana's case, it was not paranoia.
19:30
Speaker 2: They were actually being bugged at all times, they were
19:34
Speaker 2: actually being surveilled, They actually had invasions of privacy as
19:37
Speaker 2: part of their daily lives. I mean, I just think
19:40
Speaker 2: about the fact that you aren't even you know, necessarily
19:44
Speaker 2: in your own house alone ever, if you are Diana,
19:48
Speaker 2: somebody is always coming in to change the sheets or
19:50
Speaker 2: draw the curtains or this or that. Who's overhearing just
19:53
Speaker 2: very simple things like you singing to yourself in the
19:55
Speaker 2: shower in the morning. You don't have any privacy ever
19:58
Speaker 2: in your own home. Mind you, it's a ca but
20:00
Speaker 2: it's still your home.
20:01
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And the castle wasn't big enough for her
20:05
Speaker 1: to escape people overhearing things or misinterpreting things.
20:10
Speaker 3: That's a very good point.
20:11
Speaker 1: I should have said, I should come up with a
20:14
Speaker 1: term for it, like assumed paranoia or weaponized paranoia or something.
20:21
Speaker 3: Like that, because you're right it is.
20:23
Speaker 1: We use the term paranoia, and it's like, but don't
20:26
Speaker 1: even worry, that's not even happening. You're being paranoid. And
20:29
Speaker 1: they were actually being victimized by their own circumstances. When
20:37
Speaker 1: it comes to the royal family and reporting on them
20:42
Speaker 1: or watching over them, there's no way to sugarcoat that.
20:48
Speaker 1: There is a line drawn about the protections that are
20:51
Speaker 1: allowed to the men, the male members of the royal
20:55
Speaker 1: family that aren't always allowed it to the female members
21:00
Speaker 1: of the royal family.
21:04
Speaker 2: You know, that's an interesting point when I think of,
21:12
Speaker 2: for example, Prince Andrew, Prince Andrew, who we have to
21:18
Speaker 2: be careful about how we talk about him on certain outlets.
21:22
Speaker 2: When I'm on British outlets, for example, I referred to
21:26
Speaker 2: him as a person of interest in the Jeffrey Epstein
21:28
Speaker 2: case and they told me they couldn't use that term
21:30
Speaker 2: there or they would be the victims of a lawsuit
21:33
Speaker 2: that outlet. So it's really interesting how the UK outlets
21:40
Speaker 2: deal with Prince Andrew because they can be sued by
21:44
Speaker 2: the Royal family at any time over using terms that
21:46
Speaker 2: we in the US use freely. Person of interest. I
21:49
Speaker 2: didn't say he absolutely raped teenagers. I didn't say he
21:52
Speaker 2: absolutely did that. I said he's a person of interest
21:55
Speaker 2: in that case. So I think it's interesting that as
21:57
Speaker 2: far as how he has been protected, did it includes
22:01
Speaker 2: by the press in the UK also as well as
22:05
Speaker 2: his family. And to go back to how his family
22:08
Speaker 2: has protected him, who paid for the Virginia Jeffrey case
22:12
Speaker 2: to be settled? Who paid those millions of dollars while
22:15
Speaker 2: it was the Royal family paid for it right his mother,
22:19
Speaker 2: because that case was conveniently made to go away with money,
22:25
Speaker 2: and I you know, I know some people would say, oh, well,
22:31
Speaker 2: you know, the queen, that was her money. She can
22:33
Speaker 2: do what she wants to with the money. But she
22:35
Speaker 2: chose to protect him with the money. And is the
22:37
Speaker 2: money ever one hundred percent the royal families when the
22:40
Speaker 2: Royal family has made so much money pillaging, colonizing, being
22:46
Speaker 2: a landlord, not paying taxes. Charles, for example, did not
22:51
Speaker 2: have to pay any inheritance tax after his mother died,
22:53
Speaker 2: and the rest of us we have to pay inheritance
22:56
Speaker 2: tax if any of us are fortunate enough to inherit
23:00
Speaker 2: something when a parent dies. It's not a given. A
23:03
Speaker 2: lot of us will never inherit anything when a parent dies,
23:05
Speaker 2: but when we do, more often than not, we're not
23:08
Speaker 2: exempt like Charles's from paying taxes on those inheritances. AnyWho,
23:14
Speaker 2: to go back to my point, somebody paid to make
23:18
Speaker 2: that case go away, and that somebody was the Queen,
23:22
Speaker 2: and indirectly that was the public that paid to have
23:26
Speaker 2: that case go away, And so I think that's an
23:30
Speaker 2: unfair use of money, because did the public really want
23:34
Speaker 2: that case to just go away? Did the taxpayers really
23:37
Speaker 2: want that just to disappear? All the places that have
23:40
Speaker 2: been pillaged or colonized or been part of the slave trade,
23:44
Speaker 2: did they want that case to just disappear? I would
23:47
Speaker 2: say most of us didn't. The US was once a colony,
23:50
Speaker 2: and most people I know in the US think it's
23:53
Speaker 2: reprehensible that the royal family just paid to make that
23:56
Speaker 2: go away. They paid to protect and yeah.
23:58
Speaker 1: Well, and but when it comes to the press, the
24:02
Speaker 1: press in England is known to be like the press
24:06
Speaker 1: with a capital B and an exclamation point at the end,
24:10
Speaker 1: to where you know, they're constantly on top of the
24:15
Speaker 1: royal family, on top of celebrities in England, writing at
24:19
Speaker 1: all times, which we do it too. But I remember
24:23
Speaker 1: growing up knowing that there was a difference between our
24:26
Speaker 1: tabloids and their tabloids and what was allowed from their tabloids.
24:32
Speaker 1: So for him to have just kind of a blanket
24:34
Speaker 1: protection from the press, that says a lot. And I
24:39
Speaker 1: don't believe I can think of an example where someone
24:44
Speaker 1: else in the royal family has been offered that. And
24:48
Speaker 1: maybe it's because my history is escaping me. But I
24:52
Speaker 1: can just think of Queen Elizabeth's sister, Margaret Howe and
24:59
Speaker 1: her rep and exactly what her reputation was. And they
25:03
Speaker 1: had all of the money in the world to make
25:05
Speaker 1: sure that whatever Margaret was doing socially, even if she
25:09
Speaker 1: was loud about it, they could have put it to bed,
25:12
Speaker 1: because they've put other things to bed that have been enlightened,
25:17
Speaker 1: and they just went, well, Margaret should know better and
25:20
Speaker 1: maybe she'll be.
25:21
Speaker 2: Hey, she drank, she partied, she chased the wrong men. Yeah,
25:25
Speaker 2: there was definitely that reputation that was out there. To
25:29
Speaker 2: bring it to more modern times, what have they done
25:32
Speaker 2: to protect Megan Markle? I mean, look at the plethora
25:36
Speaker 2: of news stories about Megan Markle from very early on,
25:41
Speaker 2: from the time the engagement was first announced, from the
25:44
Speaker 2: time there were rumors of Harry and Meghan first dating.
25:47
Speaker 2: I mean, there was that famous Seavine Daily News headline
25:52
Speaker 2: that said that she had a niggling feeling about her.
25:55
Speaker 2: There were a lot of dog whistle headlines. There were
25:58
Speaker 2: headlines about her being straight out of Hampton. There were
26:02
Speaker 2: attempts to link her to gie hottists in various stories
26:06
Speaker 2: in the tabloid press. I could go on and on
26:08
Speaker 2: and on. There's a gazillion examples. Also, many many stories
26:12
Speaker 2: that deliberately pit her against Kate Middleton, almost always with
26:18
Speaker 2: the slant that Megan Markle was breaking protocol for doing
26:22
Speaker 2: something that they celebrated Kate doing separately. And I was
26:29
Speaker 2: part of an in depth piece comparing side by side
26:32
Speaker 2: headlines in Insider looking at that. Eventually there was a
26:38
Speaker 2: much bigger story, and I believe it was BuzzFeed that
26:41
Speaker 2: just showed like one hundred side by side headlines like
26:43
Speaker 2: look at Megan Markle, who was trying to destroy the climate.
26:47
Speaker 2: It was about drug, climate change, a lot of other
26:49
Speaker 2: things because of her beloved avocados. And then side by
26:52
Speaker 2: side there was a story about Kate Middleton and how
26:56
Speaker 2: William loves her so much that it's her favorite pregnancy
26:59
Speaker 2: treat and he always brings for avocados. And so they
27:02
Speaker 2: were just like all of these stories that were obviously
27:07
Speaker 2: showing that the press was choosing sides that we presented
27:11
Speaker 2: in that piece, and we could put out another piece
27:15
Speaker 2: like that every six months and never run out of
27:17
Speaker 2: headlines showing how Megan Marko is terrible and how Kate
27:22
Speaker 2: is good and wholesome. Kate is the right kind of princess.
27:24
Speaker 2: Megan is the wrong kind of princess. And so you know,
27:28
Speaker 2: a lot of the misogyny is, you know, they protect
27:31
Speaker 2: men more than women, but they also protect certain women
27:34
Speaker 2: in the institution more than other women. So there's that
27:38
Speaker 2: to be considered.
27:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, because we go round and round talking about how
27:41
Speaker 1: you can't have one oppression without looking to your right
27:45
Speaker 1: and going wait, is that also classism or racism or
27:49
Speaker 1: any of agism over there?
27:51
Speaker 3: Oh?
27:52
Speaker 1: Look, it is right there. They've all been partying together.
27:55
Speaker 2: Yes, oh yeah, they love having that party. It's the
27:58
Speaker 2: worst party in the whole.
27:59
Speaker 1: It's the worst already in the world. And you know,
28:03
Speaker 1: Meghan has There are people who will talk to me
28:07
Speaker 1: about Megan Mercle like she has personally come over to
28:13
Speaker 1: their home and like peed all over the floor or something.
28:16
Speaker 1: And I'm like, at what point did you do an
28:21
Speaker 1: in depth analysis on Megan Mercle and decided that she
28:25
Speaker 1: was at fault here and also trying to take down
28:28
Speaker 1: a monarchy that we technically have no part in. But
28:32
Speaker 1: you're really upset about that she doesn't really have the
28:35
Speaker 1: time to take down a monarchy or the resources.
28:43
Speaker 2: No She's just one person. She's just one person, and
28:45
Speaker 2: it's amazing how much she gets blamed for and how
28:49
Speaker 2: Harry is essentially either presented as a hostage in the
28:53
Speaker 2: situation or just invisible or they let him off the hook.
28:57
Speaker 2: And when I say let him off the hook, has
29:00
Speaker 2: said it was my decision to step back from being
29:05
Speaker 2: a senior royal. I was not stepping back from my family.
29:07
Speaker 2: I was stepping back from the family job, okay, the
29:10
Speaker 2: family business. And that was my choice to step back
29:13
Speaker 2: from the family business. As I am the one who
29:15
Speaker 2: was born into the family business. I was not pressured
29:17
Speaker 2: to do this. This was a decision I made. And
29:20
Speaker 2: it does not seem to matter how many times he
29:22
Speaker 2: has said that was his decision. Somehow, Megan is a
29:26
Speaker 2: mastermind who has forced him into this life. And he
29:29
Speaker 2: is somebody who, despite being almost forty years old, has
29:32
Speaker 2: no free will.
29:33
Speaker 3: Oh and she wrote the statement for him, and.
29:37
Speaker 2: Oh yes, and he's too dim to think for himself,
29:40
Speaker 2: and she, yeah, I mean all of this stuff, like
29:44
Speaker 2: you know what, I think you're giving her a little
29:47
Speaker 2: too much credit for this.
29:49
Speaker 1: Well, and it's never too much credit, like she's a
29:51
Speaker 1: great mom or she's been able to raise two kids
29:54
Speaker 1: during all of this, or.
29:56
Speaker 2: She's done a great job as a self made business woman. Yeah,
30:00
Speaker 2: there are always like, oh, look at on the charitable
30:02
Speaker 2: work that she did long before she ever even met Harry.
30:05
Speaker 2: None of that gets celebrated as too much.
30:07
Speaker 1: No, no, they it's always she's exhausted Harry to the
30:10
Speaker 1: point where he won't even go over there for Christmas
30:16
Speaker 1: because he is exhausted, And that plays a lot into
30:19
Speaker 1: family dynamics that I see over here. I was shocked,
30:23
Speaker 1: and well into my twenties, the first time a woman's
30:27
Speaker 1: told me, oh, no, I'm not going over there because
30:31
Speaker 1: I really don't have a relationship with my in laws.
30:34
Speaker 1: My husband knows exactly why, and what they've said about
30:37
Speaker 1: me to me or to other family members that have,
30:43
Speaker 1: you know, ratted them out, and I'm done. But I
30:46
Speaker 1: allowed them to have a relationship with my child because
30:50
Speaker 1: I don't believe she's old enough to make that decision yet.
30:53
Speaker 1: And I thought, you can just not have a relationship
30:57
Speaker 1: with people even though you know the him through family or.
31:03
Speaker 3: Marriage or jobs or.
31:05
Speaker 1: Any of it. She went, you sure can.
31:12
Speaker 2: That's true. And obviously in Harry's case, he you know,
31:17
Speaker 2: he was just over in the UK seeing his father
31:20
Speaker 2: after his cancer diagnosis. He is still capable of getting
31:25
Speaker 2: on a plane when he wants to and doing what
31:26
Speaker 2: he feels like. She is not holding him prisoner in
31:30
Speaker 2: any way, and if she doesn't want to spend time
31:33
Speaker 2: with them, that's also within her rights. And the same
31:37
Speaker 2: would be true on the flip side, if for some
31:40
Speaker 2: reason there was something happening where Harry no longer wanted
31:43
Speaker 2: to spend time with any of Megan's family, that would
31:45
Speaker 2: also be allowed. You know, we are free agents. We
31:49
Speaker 2: are humans who are allowed to make those decisions for
31:51
Speaker 2: ourselves of who makes us feel safe, who doesn't make
31:55
Speaker 2: us feel safe, who hurts us, and how much distance
31:58
Speaker 2: or closeness we want to have with people.
32:00
Speaker 1: Right. I think one of the things that always touched
32:02
Speaker 1: me most about when they were covering Meghan early on
32:06
Speaker 1: in the marriage or maybe the engagement, was how they
32:09
Speaker 1: would talk about her family like they like the Royal
32:13
Speaker 1: family in it of itself is a very complicated family
32:16
Speaker 1: that has had a lot of complicated things happened to them,
32:20
Speaker 1: and they'd be like, Ah, these cloud chasers in Meghan's family,
32:26
Speaker 1: people are just coming out of the woodwork now now
32:29
Speaker 1: that Meghan might be close to royalty and it's like, well,
32:34
Speaker 1: that's happened before.
32:37
Speaker 2: And as far as the cloud chasers in Meghan's family,
32:41
Speaker 2: the tabloid press has been instrumental in that they courted
32:45
Speaker 2: Meghan's dad, who fell into the trap and chose never
32:49
Speaker 2: to leave the trap of being paid off for you know,
32:52
Speaker 2: family photos of his daughter or to be photographed reading
32:57
Speaker 2: guide books to England were like the first ones that
33:00
Speaker 2: he was photographed, you know, planning to go to the
33:03
Speaker 2: wedding and so on. And the tabloid press, we cannot
33:07
Speaker 2: underestimate how powerful they are. There's something called the Royal Rota,
33:11
Speaker 2: which is the press pool that works closely with the
33:15
Speaker 2: royal family. They get invited to special events, they are
33:19
Speaker 2: tipped off on certain stories. They work in cooperation with
33:23
Speaker 2: the family as an extension of their pr team. Essentially,
33:27
Speaker 2: certain members of the royal family or of certain houses
33:31
Speaker 2: will tattle on other members of the royal family in
33:34
Speaker 2: order to get attention off of them. And this is
33:36
Speaker 2: something that's been well understood for a very long time.
33:39
Speaker 2: It's something that Harry explains in great detail in his
33:43
Speaker 2: book Spare But you know, Harry's book is not the
33:46
Speaker 2: only source that explains how this works. This is something
33:48
Speaker 2: that's well understood by people who've been part of the
33:50
Speaker 2: ROTA over the years and so on. Omenskovie, who is
33:55
Speaker 2: a Royal journalist, has also written extensively about it. Lots
33:58
Speaker 2: of journalists written about the Royal Roda. It's well understood
34:02
Speaker 2: and so you know, the Royal Roda in exchange for
34:06
Speaker 2: access to the Royal family they write certain stories that
34:09
Speaker 2: make the Royal family proud or happy, or that you know.
34:13
Speaker 2: They cooperate with certain members of the family and this
34:17
Speaker 2: relationship is so tight and so important that even Camilla,
34:21
Speaker 2: her head of PR is a former editor of the
34:25
Speaker 2: Daily Mail. This is not something that they just work with.
34:29
Speaker 2: It's something that they actually hire people from to help
34:33
Speaker 2: them to spin things even.
34:35
Speaker 1: Bet It's like all of those crime shows where they
34:37
Speaker 1: are like, we'll just hire the hacker to teach us
34:40
Speaker 1: how to hack and to yes and to catch all
34:44
Speaker 1: the hackers. We'll just make them on.
34:46
Speaker 3: Our side, exactly exactly.
34:49
Speaker 1: A big theme on this show is that sometimes misogyny
34:53
Speaker 1: is so subtle and so every day that because you're
34:56
Speaker 1: living within it, you don't actually realize that that misogyny
35:01
Speaker 1: is so ingrained in an institution, and it's so normalized
35:05
Speaker 1: and lasting that again, you're just living and not in
35:10
Speaker 1: one day you'll just get tilt your head and go, huh.
35:14
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's how I should have been
35:15
Speaker 1: treated during my American history class. What kind of things
35:20
Speaker 1: within a royal structure or a noble family structure allow
35:25
Speaker 1: misogyny to just be kind of naturally accepted and bred
35:31
Speaker 1: within the royal family or community. I'm thinking of how
35:37
Speaker 1: important male heirs used to be.
35:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was up until very very very recently.
35:45
Speaker 2: William and Kate they decided, along with the rest of
35:49
Speaker 2: the family, when they were expecting I think it's when
35:53
Speaker 2: they were expecting George, their first, or maybe it was
35:57
Speaker 2: when they were expecting their second, when they were expecting Charlot,
36:00
Speaker 2: that they no longer wanted the line of succession to
36:05
Speaker 2: go from Mail to Mail to Mayle and they wanted
36:09
Speaker 2: it to be birth order, regardless of sex or gender.
36:12
Speaker 2: And so that was very recent. Charlotte's not even ten
36:16
Speaker 2: years old. This is very very recent. This is well
36:19
Speaker 2: within our adult lifetimes that this change happened. This is
36:24
Speaker 2: very new, but line of succession up until you know,
36:28
Speaker 2: very recently was males, and the fact that the queen
36:34
Speaker 2: ended up being the queen was only because all the
36:37
Speaker 2: other male options were exhausted at that point and things
36:41
Speaker 2: kind of went out of order when when Wallace Simpson
36:45
Speaker 2: and Edward fell in love and you know, he abdicated,
36:50
Speaker 2: So then little Princess Elizabeth's father, George, ended up being
36:56
Speaker 2: the king. And then when he died, Oh no, oh,
37:00
Speaker 2: he only has two daughters. He doesn't have any sons.
37:03
Speaker 2: Oh no, what's gonna happen now, Well, one of the
37:05
Speaker 2: daughters has to be on the throne now, and it's
37:09
Speaker 2: only because, oh oh, he had no boys, God forbid.
37:12
Speaker 2: And that's how that happened for pretty much all of
37:18
Speaker 2: the history of the royal family. You know, you only
37:21
Speaker 2: end up with the queen when you run out of boys,
37:23
Speaker 2: So things have only changed recently. So yeah, that's an
37:28
Speaker 2: excellent example of how it's built into the system. The
37:32
Speaker 2: misogyny is built into this story.
37:33
Speaker 1: I couldn't help but laugh so hard whenever on that
37:38
Speaker 1: silly Netflix showed the crown. Queen Elizabeth would get so
37:42
Speaker 1: adamant that no one was allowed to get a divorce,
37:44
Speaker 1: even Anne, even Anne, who was pretty calm compared to
37:49
Speaker 1: everyone else, no divorces. She's like, we are the head
37:53
Speaker 1: of the Church of England. We are the closest thing
37:56
Speaker 1: that our people have to God himself, and you're trying
37:59
Speaker 1: to get divorce. And I would just laugh and go,
38:02
Speaker 1: because that's what Keen Henry was all about when it
38:05
Speaker 1: came to the Church of England, making sure that marriage
38:09
Speaker 1: was sanctioned and a holy and last stay. That was
38:14
Speaker 1: it Henry's whole deal.
38:17
Speaker 2: Oh, he loved the sanctity of you. He loved it
38:20
Speaker 2: so much he'd beheaded it over and over again.
38:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I would.
38:23
Speaker 1: I would just laugh because and I would say something
38:25
Speaker 1: completely rude and crass and go. Your great grandfather formed
38:30
Speaker 1: the Church of England because he was I'll say it
38:33
Speaker 1: the nice way. He was sick of, like not getting
38:36
Speaker 1: past third base. He was truly bored of not getting
38:42
Speaker 1: past third base. With Anne Boleyn.
38:44
Speaker 3: I that's that's.
38:46
Speaker 1: How it's been depicted to me. Maybe no one caught
38:49
Speaker 1: you up on it, but even the idea of I
38:54
Speaker 1: think there's so much more weight to be had when
38:58
Speaker 1: it comes to who allowed to get divorced and who
39:01
Speaker 1: isn't when it comes to the weight of an unhappy
39:05
Speaker 1: marriage on a woman within that marriage and whether or
39:09
Speaker 1: not she's allowed to leave, because there's so much already
39:14
Speaker 1: stacked against you when it comes to what's expected of you.
39:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, why don't you just be happy that you
39:23
Speaker 2: married into this family and you know, you know the
39:27
Speaker 2: way it is with old money. Maybe he has a
39:29
Speaker 2: mistress on the side, and you can do things that
39:32
Speaker 2: you care about, like gardening, Well he does that, you know.
39:35
Speaker 2: Or maybe you can even have your own alliances with
39:38
Speaker 2: a polo instructor or whatnot. But you know, just settle
39:42
Speaker 2: for what you're settling for and keep it quiet. Ladies,
39:45
Speaker 2: don't get upset about men being men. Boys will be boys,
39:48
Speaker 2: you know the way they are, right.
39:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't worry about what they're doing in that hunting lodge.
39:53
Speaker 1: They're with the foxes. It's fine.
39:57
Speaker 2: They definitely are with the foxes.
39:58
Speaker 1: They're taking care of the in the house. But yeah,
40:03
Speaker 1: all it never failed to make me laugh. But it's
40:06
Speaker 1: really just like a dark and sinister thought to think
40:08
Speaker 1: of how heavy that was for Queen Elizabeth to be
40:12
Speaker 1: the head of the church, that she wasn't willing to
40:17
Speaker 1: and it could have just been her personality, but she
40:19
Speaker 1: wasn't really allowing herself to budge or slide or do
40:24
Speaker 1: anything that would bring bad press or bad reputations or
40:29
Speaker 1: anything to anyone. And she carried that.
40:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was very much about stability, and in many
40:37
Speaker 2: ways she excelled at that whole idea of stability. I mean,
40:42
Speaker 2: I think about the queen as being an icon and
40:46
Speaker 2: a force and something that almost seemed unmovable, that was
40:50
Speaker 2: here for not just our lifetimes, but our parents' lifetimes,
40:54
Speaker 2: our grandparents' lifetimes. She was the queen for as long
40:58
Speaker 2: as most humans on earth alive, which is phenomenal to
41:02
Speaker 2: think about. She made one of the first transatlantic phone
41:05
Speaker 2: calls ever made, and by the time she was dying,
41:07
Speaker 2: she was doing zoom calls with her grandkids around the world.
41:10
Speaker 2: It's just amazing to think of how much she was
41:13
Speaker 2: just there no matter what. She was like an institution
41:17
Speaker 2: in and of herself.
41:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I just wonder.
41:23
Speaker 1: If, when it comes down to it, if she knew
41:30
Speaker 1: deep down in her soul, I'm not afforded the wiggle
41:35
Speaker 1: room that those who came before me were allowed like
41:39
Speaker 1: I as queen.
41:41
Speaker 3: It just it does.
41:42
Speaker 1: It does feel like that was just a heavy weight
41:45
Speaker 1: on her, and maybe not so much on Margaret due
41:47
Speaker 1: to her party lifestyle. But yeah, she really did. You
41:52
Speaker 1: could tell that she carried that every day and she
41:55
Speaker 1: was very good at it.
41:58
Speaker 2: She was great at it. One of my favorite stories
42:01
Speaker 2: is from Michelle Obama's memoir talking about how she accidentally
42:06
Speaker 2: laid hands on the Queen. She hugged her and hugged
42:08
Speaker 2: her and laughed and you know, and she later on
42:13
Speaker 2: was told she broke protocol. She's like, I'm sorry. She's
42:15
Speaker 2: so disarming and funny. The Queen is just a joy
42:18
Speaker 2: to hang out with. She's such good company. She can
42:22
Speaker 2: bring anyone out of their shell and make them feel seen.
42:24
Speaker 2: And I accidentally fell for it, hook line and sinker,
42:27
Speaker 2: and before you know what, I'm hugging the Queen because
42:29
Speaker 2: she's such a dull light. And Michelle Obama, the way
42:33
Speaker 2: she writes about it, I'm like, Wow, the Queen had skills.
42:36
Speaker 2: The fact that she could be that disarming with anybody.
42:40
Speaker 2: I really take my hat off to her for that,
42:42
Speaker 2: and I wish I had that same skill set. She
42:45
Speaker 2: must be, you know, when she was alive, I can
42:47
Speaker 2: imagine her walking into any room and just being a
42:49
Speaker 2: delight talking to complete strangers, having fun. She had it.
42:55
Speaker 2: She knew how to do it, and I think that's fantastic.
42:57
Speaker 2: I also think that as far as her having to
43:00
Speaker 2: be so good at it, part of it was she
43:03
Speaker 2: was extremely young and she was a woman when she
43:05
Speaker 2: came into it. To get back to the misogyny issue,
43:08
Speaker 2: she had to do it very well as a woman,
43:10
Speaker 2: and she had to do it very well as somebody
43:12
Speaker 2: who was so young. And I mean, how many of
43:15
Speaker 2: us in our early twenties are told you're going to
43:19
Speaker 2: have this job for the rest of your life. Most
43:21
Speaker 2: of us switch jobs at least. I was told when
43:24
Speaker 2: I was in college that I would be the first
43:26
Speaker 2: generation that would have an average of eight jobs in
43:29
Speaker 2: my life, which, by the way, it's been way more
43:31
Speaker 2: than eight jobs. It's been like, I don't know, twenty
43:34
Speaker 2: or thirty. I've had so many jobs. So she, at
43:39
Speaker 2: a very young age, when a lot of people are
43:41
Speaker 2: just graduating college, was essentially being told now it's your
43:46
Speaker 2: time to take over the family business, and you can
43:49
Speaker 2: never leave this business. This is your job. You can
43:52
Speaker 2: leave it by stepping down. But what would that really say?
43:54
Speaker 2: About you in the institution if you chose to step down, right,
43:57
Speaker 2: and so you know, she could have stepped down, but
44:00
Speaker 2: she couldn't really step down, you know, And she was
44:02
Speaker 2: doing it at such a young age. And we all
44:04
Speaker 2: know that the world doesn't necessarily treat young women with
44:08
Speaker 2: a great deal of seriousness or respect, right. We see
44:11
Speaker 2: it throughout history, we see it nowadays. I just think
44:15
Speaker 2: of young female politicians in the US and how they
44:18
Speaker 2: get treated AOC from New York as one example. They
44:23
Speaker 2: are frequently dismissed. And even if we're not politicians, young
44:27
Speaker 2: women tend to be treated more dismissively than men of
44:32
Speaker 2: any age, including I.
44:33
Speaker 1: Think that part of the delight is all of those corgies,
44:37
Speaker 1: Like she really did build up a dog army to
44:40
Speaker 1: be like, I'm going to disarm people into being charmed
44:42
Speaker 1: by me, because a dog is going to run on
44:45
Speaker 1: them before I get on another tangent?
44:47
Speaker 3: Is there anything.
44:48
Speaker 1: Because you were so excited to talk about misogyny within
44:52
Speaker 1: the royal family? Is there one thing that when you
44:55
Speaker 1: think about misogyny in the royal family, you think, this
44:59
Speaker 1: is the thing I wish we talked about more.
45:01
Speaker 3: It could be a story. It could be a person,
45:04
Speaker 3: it could.
45:05
Speaker 1: Be a pattern, but anything that would excite you that
45:08
Speaker 1: I'm not covering.
45:11
Speaker 2: It could be the very fact that most of the
45:13
Speaker 2: women in the Royal family have only one job, which
45:16
Speaker 2: is to produce an air. You are essentially a breed horse,
45:21
Speaker 2: a brood mare. I'm not sure what the best term
45:24
Speaker 2: is for it, but your job is almost inhumane as
45:29
Speaker 2: a woman, and I have never been able to get
45:34
Speaker 2: over that. That's your job, produce an air, produce a spear,
45:37
Speaker 2: and then put on a smiling face and cut some
45:41
Speaker 2: ribbons in wave. But that's very secondary. Whether or not
45:44
Speaker 2: you actually do those things, it doesn't matter as much.
45:47
Speaker 2: I mean, I look at the First Family. I look
45:50
Speaker 2: at the Royal family of Monaco, for example, Albert, who
45:53
Speaker 2: has knocked up women all over the place. Anywhere he
45:56
Speaker 2: can put his deck, he puts it. And I'm not
45:58
Speaker 2: here to slut shame him for that. But you know,
46:01
Speaker 2: some of the children he has produced have not been white,
46:06
Speaker 2: and they have not been legitimate, and because of that,
46:09
Speaker 2: they can never be an heir. And he has the
46:13
Speaker 2: woman that he has twins with, who after producing the twins,
46:16
Speaker 2: has almost never been seen from again. But she is
46:18
Speaker 2: his wife, and she is white, and she is legally
46:23
Speaker 2: the mother of the future heirs to the throne. And
46:27
Speaker 2: because of that, because she produced those kids, that's enough.
46:30
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter that she's invisible and doesn't do any
46:32
Speaker 2: of the other royal duties. It's fine because a woman's
46:35
Speaker 2: job in marrying into the royal family primarily is to
46:38
Speaker 2: just be there for your uterus and your eggs and
46:43
Speaker 2: your vagina, the whole thing whatever, to do that thing,
46:47
Speaker 2: and then whether you do anything else after that, they'll
46:52
Speaker 2: probably say bad things about you if you don't do
46:53
Speaker 2: anything beyond that. But your job is well well.
46:55
Speaker 1: And also anything else you're doing is just seeing. It's
46:59
Speaker 1: not your life's it's your hobby. So when Diana was
47:02
Speaker 1: so involved with AIDS relief and AIDS research and everything,
47:08
Speaker 1: it was always like, isn't that nice that Diana found time.
47:12
Speaker 3: For this like little hobby she does at the hospitals.
47:15
Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, she's visiting, she's she spends a
47:18
Speaker 1: lot of time and money visiting sick kids, Like I don't.
47:21
Speaker 1: I don't think it's going to the movies. I'm going
47:24
Speaker 1: to the movies later on. And I would never talk
47:27
Speaker 1: about it in the same way that I would talk
47:29
Speaker 1: about Diana doing all of that charity work.
47:32
Speaker 2: She was doing a lot of it after hours and
47:35
Speaker 2: doing it off the clock too, which famously her guards
47:38
Speaker 2: have said, Yeah, they snuck her in to hospitals to
47:42
Speaker 2: AIDS boards with, you know, in secret, because they didn't
47:46
Speaker 2: want the cameras there. She wasn't doing it as a
47:48
Speaker 2: pr op. She did it as a pr op a
47:51
Speaker 2: few times because she wanted to draw attention to this cause,
47:54
Speaker 2: but more often than not, she was sneaking into these
47:56
Speaker 2: places because it mattered to her, because it was meaningful work,
47:59
Speaker 2: and because she did want to just be there for
48:01
Speaker 2: the cameras. She wanted to be there for the patients themselves.
48:04
Speaker 2: And to me, that says, this is something that I'm
48:07
Speaker 2: passionate about. This is important work for me beyond the cameras,
48:12
Speaker 2: And so I agree with you. We can't underestimate how
48:16
Speaker 2: important that is. And I see us doing it. I
48:19
Speaker 2: shouldn't say us. I see the press doing it all
48:21
Speaker 2: the time. Also with Megan Markle's work too, you know,
48:24
Speaker 2: she has done a lot of work with you know,
48:28
Speaker 2: one of her first jobs was working on the victims
48:30
Speaker 2: of the Grunfield fire on a cookbook. This is a
48:33
Speaker 2: fire in a low income housing development in the UK
48:38
Speaker 2: that killed hundreds of people, and a lot of people
48:42
Speaker 2: who were already living on the margins were injured, killed,
48:46
Speaker 2: or left homeless because of this fire. And she worked
48:50
Speaker 2: hard on a cookbook with some of the surviving women
48:53
Speaker 2: that included recipes from their homelands, family recipes and so on.
48:58
Speaker 2: And this was a fundraising cookbook and also a way
49:01
Speaker 2: to draw attention to the victims and so on. And
49:04
Speaker 2: she did this plus created a fashion line for low
49:08
Speaker 2: income women that helped raise money for getting women back
49:12
Speaker 2: to work and so on. That there were all these
49:14
Speaker 2: different charitable things that Megan did when she was a
49:18
Speaker 2: member of the royal family, and she got accused of
49:22
Speaker 2: being opportunistic or trying to make it all about herself.
49:26
Speaker 2: There were stories written about her being workaholic, tyrant, an
49:31
Speaker 2: angry black woman, too demanding, and so on. So I
49:35
Speaker 2: think it's interesting that when a woman in the royal
49:38
Speaker 2: family tries to do something outside of just cutting the
49:43
Speaker 2: ribbons or having the babies, it's frequently treated either as
49:48
Speaker 2: you said, just a hobby, isn't that cute that she
49:50
Speaker 2: does that? Or treated as a problem, and I don't
49:55
Speaker 2: see that happening when men in the royal family do
49:58
Speaker 2: these things well.
49:59
Speaker 1: Because people think that when Megan is harassed in the
50:06
Speaker 1: press for doing something that is admirable and actual, the
50:10
Speaker 1: actually the definition of noble and loving and kind, that oh.
50:14
Speaker 3: Who cares, it's just tabloid trash.
50:17
Speaker 1: But I was just talking with another guest about this
50:20
Speaker 1: innate anxiety and fear I have of being overly kind
50:26
Speaker 1: to people, about being overly nice about supporting people, or
50:30
Speaker 1: being too excited for them, because at the end of
50:33
Speaker 1: the day it might just come back that I was
50:35
Speaker 1: trying to steal thunder from them or steal clout or things.
50:38
Speaker 1: And no one ever sat down and said, hey, Nantley,
50:43
Speaker 1: when you celebrate people, you get to compliment them once.
50:47
Speaker 1: And if that compliment is written too enthusiastically or too nicely,
50:52
Speaker 1: or you use too many exclamation points or adjectives, then
50:57
Speaker 1: it's cringey and people really think that you're just trying
51:00
Speaker 1: to draw attention over to yourself and how nice you are.
51:04
Speaker 1: It's silencing, is what it is when people when the
51:09
Speaker 1: press does things like that, to be like, look at
51:11
Speaker 1: Megan doing a whole charity thing, just so she can be.
51:16
Speaker 2: Making it all about herself. Look at her do that.
51:19
Speaker 1: It's another way that they silence us. And I don't
51:21
Speaker 1: think we give that enough credit. And I don't think
51:24
Speaker 1: we give it enough credit on how that continues to
51:29
Speaker 1: make us divided. And it's another one of those insidious
51:32
Speaker 1: tools that they do where it's like, well, if we
51:35
Speaker 1: tear Megan down because she's giving homeless women jobs, then
51:41
Speaker 1: some other women somewhere will also resent Meghan, and that's
51:45
Speaker 1: a further divide And.
51:48
Speaker 2: I just want to, you know, make a point here
51:52
Speaker 2: to say Diana wasn't perfect, Megan is not perfect. I'm
51:56
Speaker 2: not here to try and valorize them or make them
51:58
Speaker 2: sound like they're perfect. But because I think some people
52:03
Speaker 2: when they hear me talk in the press, they're like, Oh,
52:05
Speaker 2: you're just one hundred percent team saw SX, you love Diana.
52:07
Speaker 2: No matter what. I'm not saying these people are flawless
52:10
Speaker 2: people in any way. What I'm saying is how the
52:14
Speaker 2: institution and how the press treat them is uh just
52:20
Speaker 2: it's patently unfair. They are presented as villains, women are
52:24
Speaker 2: pitted against each other, and none of the ways that
52:28
Speaker 2: they are treated have anything to do with what they've
52:31
Speaker 2: actually done, good or bad, you know, because.
52:33
Speaker 1: I get the not with the royal family just in general.
52:36
Speaker 1: I get that criticism too, where it's like you find
52:39
Speaker 1: you're just really hard to find sympathy. You make it
52:43
Speaker 1: extremely hard to find sympathy or empathy for these men
52:47
Speaker 1: who are carrying out these oppressive systems.
52:50
Speaker 3: And I go, uh huh, it would uh huh, and
52:54
Speaker 3: I'll own it.
52:56
Speaker 2: Yeah.
52:58
Speaker 1: The reason why I find it so hard to have
53:01
Speaker 1: as much empathy for Charles as I would have had
53:03
Speaker 1: for Diana, should the three of us be in the
53:05
Speaker 1: same room, is because at the end of the day, logically,
53:09
Speaker 1: my brain knows it'll work out for Charles and he'll
53:14
Speaker 1: still be okay, you know, yes, yes, absolutely.
53:20
Speaker 2: And also he was in the power position. Again, she
53:22
Speaker 2: was a teenager, he was in his thirties. He was
53:25
Speaker 2: part of a thousand year old machine of power, of oppression,
53:33
Speaker 2: of money, and she, despite being from an aristocratic family,
53:38
Speaker 2: was not She did not have all of those things
53:41
Speaker 2: that he had. And she also was a woman and