Latest / Step Wise / Margaret Aitken on What Ten Years Inside the U.S. Senate Taught Her About the Power of Words

Transcript

Margaret Aitken on What Ten Years Inside the U.S. Senate Taught Her About the Power of Words · Step Wise

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of the work is with companies going through transitions.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: And during those times, there's a lot of uncertainty and there's a lot of anxiety.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I have seen leaders that are like, I can't say everything, so I'm not gonna say anything.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I always advise against that.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: To me, that is such a mistake because human beings, we are hardwired to come up with a story.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: If nobody's saying anything, I'm gonna fill in the blanks myself, and nine times out of ten, it's worse than what the true story is.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Besides me and a friend, she's a gifted communications professional with decades of experience in messaging, media, and public relations.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: What's all that mean?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: For decades, she's used her mastery of words, context, and humanity to shape messages for leaders leading through change and transformation, including over a decade spent as press secretary to then US Senator Joe Biden.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know when you just click with someone?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: I feel this way about Margaret.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: She's warm, funny, shockingly open and intelligent.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: These days, in addition to her corporate advising work, she writes regularly on her Substack, where she explores themes of resilience, leadership, and the small moments that shape us.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's a must-read, but more on that later.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: The theme of today's podcast is the power of words and stories to shape our lives, and how leaders use words to positively or negatively move people and impact performance.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: She'll share how a good story connects us and the most important elements of a leadership narrative.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: It was a fun conversation and incredibly enlightening for me.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Margaret Aiken, what a treat to see you and hang out with you for a few minutes.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, my pleasure.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's absolutely lovely to see you, and I've been looking forward to this for a long time.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me too.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: My curiosity with you, besides your beautiful writing, and by the way, if you have not subscribed to Margaret's Substack, it is special.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: It is fantastic.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: It will broaden your heart, it will pull at your heartstrings, and it will teach you stuff.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: I am so curious about kind of the power of words.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: When I think about Margaret, not only are you just fun to hang around and you're glib and articulate and words flow easily, but you've made a career in many ways around the power of words.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's my curiosity today.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Words matter, and so I'd love to spend some time with you talking about your experience with all that.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: I've always really had this kind of, I would call it almost a biblical reverence for words.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Thinking about how that kind of started for me.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't mean to sound like a cliche, and I know that I'm not laying on a couch, and you are not my therapist.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm the youngest of eight kids.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: My parents had um eight children in ten and a half years.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: So we were one right after the other.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually have um siblings who are born in the same year, though they are not twins.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it was like stacked right on top of each other.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: And and for me, I won't even go there.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: For me, I just I think I was always just trying to find my voice.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it was such a loud, joyful, chaotic, crazy place that I grew up in.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I know if you had a moment and you got my parents' attention, then you needed to be really clear and concise and compelling, right?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, like I think from a very early age that was kind of drilled into me.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I've always just been interested in people who understand the importance of words and have the power to wield them in a really beautiful and positive way.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I had a lot of experiences sort of in early professional career where I interacted with a lot of those people and I was able to, you know, kind of learn at the feet of some masters, which was which was amazing to me.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and really, I kind of fell into this um this space where words kind of became a huge part of my both professional and personal lives.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Are there any of those masters that we might know?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: For 10 years I was press secretary for Joe Biden when he was in the United States Senate.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I know a lot of people know him later in life, but you know, I had the opportunity to work with him when he was chairman of the Judiciary Committee and chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I've not met a person who has the ability to connect with someone as well as he does, like individually and in a group.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, they always say his superpower is empathy, and I was able to see that up close.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: And what that really is, is an ability to communicate and touch somebody's heart and make them feel seen and heard.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it was just a really impressive, powerful thing to watch.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: I watched it on the smallest, smallest stage.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like I took the train with him three days a week to DC from Delaware for 10 years, and the interaction he had with folks on the train was just incredible to watch.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: I watched him on a larger stage, you know, um, doing political speeches.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: I saw him interacting with groups, and he always had this kind of ability to connect.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it was, it was just really incredible to watch.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I learned so much just kind of watching him.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: And my first week that I worked for him, I, you know, I was in my 20s, I was young, and I'm sure I was trying to impressive.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I was writing, I'd written a press release for him.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember the first week I wrote this line I will never forget.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: I wrote, a cadre of concerned citizens.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm a big fan of alliteration, right?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I got it back and it was crossed out.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: And he wrote group of people.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: So what I learned from that was that, you know, connection isn't about fancy words.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about the the beauty of it, it's about the emotional connection to someone.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and how I translate that into what I do now is, you know, if I write something, if somebody has to look something up that I've written, or if I make an illusion that they don't quite grasp, I feel like that's a failure, right?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like I want to write to their heart and where they are.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not trying to impress anybody, I'm just trying to be honest and authentic and true to that.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I learned so many lessons from him.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Before I even worked for him, I volunteered for his campaign.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm a Delaware girl.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're small, and I'd, you know, grown up with Joe Biden as a huge political figure in my state, and I wanted to volunteer for his campaign.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so I did.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I show up on this Saturday, and it's this kind of crowded warehouse, and there's all of these people there, and we're getting ready to do a lit job, which, if you know anything about campaigns, it's the worst job there is.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's literally what it sounds like.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: You have a piece of literature, a brochure, or something, and your job is to go out and take that and knock on somebody's door and talk to them about that.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: And if they're not there, you leave it there.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, there's so many regulations about where you can put it and not in the mail slot, and there's dogs, and nobody wants you at their house, and it's terrible.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember walking into this room and feeling like, oh man, this is gonna be a crappy Saturday.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I see this woman stand up on this chair, and it turns out to be his sister who has run all of his campaigns, Valerie Biden Owens.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: And she stood up on this chair, all hundred pounds of her, and she had this group of people, and she talked for 10 minutes.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: And when I left there, I felt like that one piece of literature I was gonna deliver was gonna swing the election.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like wow, it was just so beautiful the way that she connected our what we were doing with a larger purpose and made us feel like it was important.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: And and so Valerie has been in my life for 30 some years, and she's an amazing writer and a touchstone for me and a mentor for me.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I just had this opportunity from a really early place to, you know, be around people that really knew how to use words to move people and impact people.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I I felt like it was just an unbelievable graduate school for me for a really long period of time, and I felt really incredibly lucky to be there.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: With Joe Biden, it sounds as though it was connection first before words.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: It was it sounds as though there is this almost visceral state he could connect with people.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then the words seem to make more sense or land or provide context.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: There was a poll that was done back when I was working for him, and one of the questions was Do you have a personal relationship with Joe Biden?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think something like high 80% of the people in our state said yes.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now that's not possible.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like they couldn't have had that connection with him.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he he was a politician, Delaware small, you know, you meet a lot of people.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: You don't meet 80% of the people in the state.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, like what that said to me was that he had this just really incredible ability to touch people and make them feel like they're heard, they're seen, they're known, and he understands what they're talking about.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: I believe that.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I believe his connection was individual, and then the rhetoric kind of came from there.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot these days that time that is spent on this notion of a leader's narrative, the story that he or she is trying to communicate, trying to create.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: How is a leader's narrative best created?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say that 80% recognition and connection with Joe.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: But then again, how does one create the story that he in this case wants to communicate in a broader way?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so in my experience in working with leaders of all stripes and shapes and sizes, there's two things I think that make for a really, really effective narrative.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: One is far and away authenticity.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: You can tell the most beautiful story, and if it doesn't match the person that it's coming from, it falls flat.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: One time I was working for an organization, a client, a CEO of a company, and we were in this really great groove.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: I had worked with him for a couple years, and we had this great cadence of communication, and I knew what he wanted to say, I knew how he wanted to say it, and he left.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: And in the interim, they had the COO come in and do this.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I made this mistake.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: The COO came in and I knew what the company needed.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: I had been there for a while.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: I knew that there was a lot of uncertainty.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I wrote that speech.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: It was well written and it had the right messaging, and he delivered it on the town hall, and it was so flat and it was so, it just landed wrong.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason was because I wrote I concentrated too much on the message and not the messenger.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: He was a completely different person, the previous CEO that I'd written for.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: They had a different, he was a much more tactical person.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: The previous guy was a much more emotive, feeling person.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it just landed flat.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I the lesson that I learned from that was that it has to be authentic.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: No narrative, no messaging from a leader, if it doesn't feel like it comes from them, it's not gonna work.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: So in my mind, that's one of the most important things.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: And the second thing I think that makes a narrative, and whether you're talking about a narrative, you're framing the narrative of a company, whether you're framing a strategy of the company, there's a bunch of different kinds of narratives.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: I want to be honest.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: I I realized when I was rereading leadership, I stole this from you.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: I want, I want to apologize and I want to give you credit now.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: You use the the fable of the blind man and the elephant, right?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it was so beautiful.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I have used that time and time and time again.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: And in my own brain, I thought I came up with that brilliant thing, but really it's yours.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: But what the leader, what the leader does, what a leader, a good leader does, what a good narrative does is provide this perspective that not everybody has, right?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like the story of the blind men and the elephant, obviously, is these blind men come upon an elephant and they each grab a piece of the elephant and they're convinced that that's what the elephant looks like.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: So the guy that grabs the ear is like, oh, it's like a fan.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: And the guy that grabs the tail is like, and oh, it's a rope.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: And what the leader, what their job is to do, is to accurately describe the elephant and then the jungle around them, right?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because say you're working for a huge healthcare company and there's 30,000 people there, you've got so many different types of workers.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: You've got people who are frontline healthcare dealing with patients, and they might not necessarily know about the regulatory or financial challenges that you're facing, and and the office folks might not necessarily know that the frontline people are dealing with safety issues.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, so the leader, what they have to do is take all of those disparate pieces and tell a story based on that.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say what makes a really good narrative is authenticity and perspective.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: I heard recently that Blind Men and the Elephant Story used to describe the concept of perception versus perspective.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it is not not the leader's responsibility to act from perception, but to understand that this is my point of view only, and that my job is to give a broader perspective of how all this kind of stuff fits.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, all of those symbols into maybe a phrase as simple as we're all facing headwinds, and everybody goes, Yep, got it.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Front line to top line, whatever.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it's not that simple.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you have to be a little bit more explicit about some things that they might not have insight into, but the leader and the leadership team, they should have all of that insight.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it's their job to create that story that people can then rally around.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: What do you make of the times that we live in with respect to overload of information, maybe an imbalance in perception versus perspective?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, leaving that up to those of us who are, you know, kind of rank and file and don't have full understanding about what's going on.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: How do you make sense of these times?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think we live in a really paradoxical time.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like we are at one time so much more connected than we've ever been, and so much more disconnected than we've ever been.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: So you and I are having a conversation.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm assuming you're in Montana.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm in Wilmington, Delaware, right?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: And we're having this conversation, like we're in the same room, and we can plug somebody in from Bangladesh and it and it's not gonna, you know, ripple the stream much.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's like no more geographic barriers.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: In a lot of ways, that's great.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like a lot of the companies I work for, the CFOs in Texas and the CEOs in Chicago, and the president of the company might be in Montana.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: You're able to get the best talent, you're able to sell your product.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: There's no geographic barriers.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: But I think one of the things that that has been lost is this human connection that we have.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: One of the companies I do work for, they have weekly leadership calls that I sit in on a lot of them, and then they have quarterly meetings where they actually get together.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: And the difference between those two is just so palatable, right?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's there's something that you get from being in person.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: The way that people interact with each other is completely different.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: I really think the one thing that can both set companies apart and tie them together is a good story, right?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: So leaders that have the ability to articulate who we are, what we do, and why it matters are like they have an advantage, right?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: So there's just so much richness that they can develop from there and they can tie these kind of disparate parts together if they can do that well.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one quick postscript on the notion of virtual versus in-person kind of meetings.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: I noticed it in my coaching as well.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the difference for me is if I am virtual, I can understand what's going on and I get a feel for the conversation.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: When I'm in the room, I can be a lot more acute with my observation, my feedback.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: I can I feel stuff more than just the words or just what I'm seeing.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: You get a sense for boy, the tension in here is pretty palpable.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, okay, so guys, what's going on?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, like there is a level of intensity that is absolutely lost.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, people like me were trying to convince ourselves and everybody else during the pandemic that no, no, no, we'll be fine if we just do this virtually.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we're kind of not.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can keep the ball rolling down the field or down the stream or whatever, but it's different.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: It is really different.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's different, but I think that actually makes the need for a congealing story even more important, right?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like everybody kind of has to rally around something if you're all in different places and if you aren't as connected.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because I agree with you, there's stuff that you miss online that you get when you're in person.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I've noticed that online meetings they start like that, right?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's three o'clock and 3.01, you're into your agenda.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas if you were in a meeting, you know, people are like, hey, what'd you do last weekend?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: And there's that kind of connection that is missed because there's this really like shortened timeline that you've got and people want to get to it.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: So there's it, there really is a human element that that's missing from it in some ways.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we played of the technology a bit.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 100%.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: What are the kind of core communication skills that you had to learn to be able to help craft narrative and story on a national basis that would affect more people than just than just the immediate audience?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: What I learned is that there's always a connection you can make to something.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think connecting to a company to the user, the audience, the consumer, that is such a critical thing.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think a lot of companies know how to do that.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think they're really, really, really good at what they do.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: And because of Simon Cynic and the work that you do, they're great at why they do it too.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: And the part that I think they need a little help is is why that matters from a practical perspective.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll give you an example.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I have a friend, she's just like a scrappy entrepreneur business person.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: And a couple years ago, she had this what I thought was a really great idea.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: It was kind of an Uber for kids and a little bit of a different concept, like you're not getting a stranger picking your kid up, but they all work for her, and there's a lot of safety stuff.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: So she wanted me to look through her promotional material and her website and just give me, give her some feedback on the messaging.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I know her.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: She's got a lot, she's a mom of she's now seven kids, you know, a lot of kids.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so I met her and I was looking through her stuff, and I and it was beautiful.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was really well done, and you could tell that she had a great plan.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I just started asking questions.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of the work I did was asking questions, and sometimes I asked the same question over and over and over to try to excavate something.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I was talking to this woman and I said, Why did you start this company?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: And she kind of launched into this, what the market need was, and she could clearly tell she had gone to business school, and it was a great answer.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Why did you start this company?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then she went to, well, I have a certain interest in this and blah, blah, blah.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: And about five, why did you start this companies later?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: She said to me, Because I'm outnumbered and because I'm a working mom and I'm so tired of asking for favors, I know I can never return.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I want my kids to be able to get where they need to go to go and I want them to get there safely.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, bingo, right?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: So if you have two web pages, right, and you have this lady over here, and you have this other company that does similar things and they have a beautiful website, and maybe they're private equity backed.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: But I see myself and her story, right?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a frazzled mom and I gotta get my kids places, and I can identify with that feeling of guilt and like maybe I'm dropping the ball, but I need to make sure, like, I'm going with her, right?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so like I think what a lot of companies need to do is figure out what that thing that sets them apart and how they can connect to people.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of times that's just excavating a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more to get down to like the most basic level where I can make a human connection to you.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: I love that story.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, the same thing is true on a larger level.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like I work with a lot of healthcare companies and they all talk about the patient.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: All of them talk about the patient.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I encourage them to like dig deeper on the patient.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, this what we're doing is about making sure that that dad has the opportunity to walk his daughter down the aisle, right?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just taking that string and tying it out further.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: In foreign policy, when I worked for Joe Biden, you know, there was there was conflict in parts of the world.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: People didn't couldn't identify on a map.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't identify on a map.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and we had to make it relevant to the guy at the grocery store down the street, right?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's about your security, it's about your grocery prices growing up.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: So there's always a connection, and a lot of times it's just finding out what that connection is and kind of working through that process with a leader.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's incredible.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: The follow-up question I've got, Margaret, you asked about the book that I'm working on right now.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's called Honoring.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: One of the stimuli for me wanting to do this was the multi generational differences that leaders have to respond to.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder how this relates to that story.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: You've got a you've got a Gen Zier along with a boomer, along with a millennial.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: They're all in the workforce, perhaps for different stuff.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: They have different needs.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: They clearly have different life experiences, lived experiences.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how does a leader manage to create a unifying story, which I absolutely agree is the most, you know, is it so critical, uh, among different generations in the workforce today?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I think there's always some commonality, right?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like they might have a different way that they consume information, they might have a different uh career trajectory, but like there's certain things that everybody really cares about, right?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think kind of tapping into the commonality of that, like you might not have a uniform workforce, but they want to feel respected, they want to feel heard, they want to feel like the leader knows where they're going and can articulate that.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: They like so there's certain things that I think are the commonality, and I think that's part of the leader's job with a really diverse workforce, like with those people that are touching different parts of the elephant.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what is the common thread here?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and how do I access that in them?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's um this sort of the same process, but it is really like winnowing it down to what do they care about?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: And and and I do think some Gen Z people care about the same thing as boomers care about, you know, it's just a matter of I agree.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting too hearing you say that as a you know a recovering organizational scientist.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder how does that translate into, let's say, guiding principles that we might see in an organization in 2025 versus what we might have seen in 2015 or you know, in the year 2000.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um I wonder if the notions of respecting differences, I wonder if the notion of finding that common, common value would be more front and center today in guiding principles or core values than they might have been a few years ago.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: I 100% think that.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: I totally believe that.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that's when the narrative falls apart when you say we really care about our employees, we value this and they treat their employees badly, right?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: Or if you have a company that says, like, we're really dedicated to technology and innovation and their product doesn't work, right?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so there has to be a match between them.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I think in that same vein, you've got to find those commonalities between them.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you can.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a matter of making sure that they're authentic.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that requires a lot of work, you know, a lot of the work that a lot of the people that we know do and kind of working with people to determine what feels true to us.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because if it doesn't, I I've never seen values that don't feel true or mission statements that don't feel true in the company's doing well.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like I just don't.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I think that there needs to be some authenticity, a lot of authenticity to that.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the concept of transparency in this um era of a high volume of information and communications that washes over us every day has been a big kind of buzzword, at least it was three, four years ago.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Transparency, transparency, transparency.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And yet we all know, given the pace of change in organizations, that leaders can't be a thousand percent transparent because there's stuff that wouldn't fit the context that people operate in and uh would be premature to share, that kind of stuff.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: When you're advising a leader, what is that line about where the where they are transparent and where they are withholding?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of the work is with companies going through transitions.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: And during those times, there's a lot of uncertainty and there's a lot of anxiety.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I have seen leaders that are like, I can't say everything, so I'm not gonna say anything.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I always advise against that.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: To me, that is such a mistake because human beings, we are hardwired to come up with a story.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: If nobody's saying anything, I'm gonna fill in the blanks myself, and nine times out of ten, it's worse than what the true story is.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: So when you're in a position where you have a leader and they can't say much because maybe there's a merger happening, or maybe there's gonna be a change in strategy, or maybe there's gonna be a riff, or maybe there's gonna be something.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: I always advise leaders what they can do is talk about things that they know aren't changing.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know where we're gonna be, but I can tell you this isn't gonna change about us.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: These are the values that we have, and they will never change.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: And they can also talk about who they are as a leader and what matters to them.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: But I worked with a guy who stepped into this company that was like, they had been through such a succession of changes over the year.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then this new guy had no experience was coming in, and like you're almost set up to fail, then, right?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: I remember reading in graduate school a study about productivity during times like that can go down to one hour a day.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and when you think about that, right?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like one hour a day, and the rest of the time you're trying to make sense of what's gone on around you.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: You might be doing your resume or you know, whatever.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: So this guy was stepping into a time that was super tumultuous.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: And what he did was decide to step into it with a narrative that was really honest.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, Look, I don't know everything yet.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I want to rebuild this company deliberately and slowly.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: And my promise to you is that I'm gonna be transparent and you're gonna be involved in this.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: So everything was based on that narrative of we're rebuilding.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know entirely what that looks like, but I'm gonna be honest with you.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: When I find things, I'm gonna tell you stuff that's not working, and I'm gonna tell you mistakes that I've made.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like stunned that at the end of the year they had lost less people in that year than they did the previous three years, and the engagement score went up.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like it was because this guy understood the value of communication, he knew how important it was, and he was committed to it.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: Even when he couldn't say everything, that didn't mean he couldn't say anything.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: It was an example of how a leader in a narrative stepped into a really volatile situation, and because they were had fidelity to this narrative that was true and authentic, it worked out really well.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds as though the leader did a really great job in connecting events to that through line of whatever that story was.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's so tempting.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Many of the leaders that I've worked with create a new narrative for every set of events, every set of circumstances, rather than who we are, why we're here, how it impacts all of us, the difference in the world we're trying to create, and pulling that thing through.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: One of the best I've ever seen, and granted it's a very missional company, is from my friend Paul Viviano at Children's Hospital Los Angeles.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: They are very missional, but everything he does talks about the dear children.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: It is about the dear children, and we are all committed to this in the service of our dear dear children that we serve, regardless of their ability to pay, and it always comes back to that.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Very powerful.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: Just with a single word, you can create a feeling of comfort, you can create a feeling of unity, you can create a feeling of connection, a single word.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: And conversely, you can do the exact opposite.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: You can pull people apart.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: The power of words is like almost unimaginable.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: But they can also divide us and make us feel more alone, and they can make us feel less and less, you know, more disenfranchised.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really important to use them carefully.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: Just look at what happened the last couple, the last weekend or so.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's just been so much violence, and there's just been so such stuff that is so heavy on your heart.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like you think of Brown University and you think of Australia, and then you think of Rob Reiner, and you think of the message that came out.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: And this is not a political statement.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: This is a communication.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a communication professional and I'm giving you my opinion about a missed opportunity, right?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so the president said what he said about Rob Reiner.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: Just imagine a world, right, where somebody came out and said, you know, a leader said, I might not have agreed politically with this guy, but this is a tragedy.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: And this person brought a lot of love and light into this world, and this is awful, and we grieve with their families.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: And this is an opportunity for us to talk about addiction and mental health.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like, imagine the world that that imagine how you would have felt after hearing something like that.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, it's such a good example of just the power of words to change the trajectory of a country.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: In my first book, I talk about this notion that was given to me by a wonderful leader that I learned a lot from while coaching her.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: And she talked about a leader's communication has two responsibilities to be a definer of reality and a purveyor of hope.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's a simple construct, but it is, you know, I can say we're wallowing in the muck here and we're lost and we're in the desert and we don't have enough provisions.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: And purveyor of hope, I see an oasis out there.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not a BS one, but it is find something in that environment that gives you hope to take the next few steps or to align together, or whatever that is.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that um in these times, um, so important.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: So think about like historically speaking, like every single great movement or every great advancement, it might start it with an idea, but it also had a person who could articulate it well and paint a picture of what that looked like, right?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like uh I Martin Luther King, I have a dream, right?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't just say I have a dream.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: He told us what that dream looked like, right?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: And because he did that, we had the ability to see it and therefore we can get there.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what I think a really good leader does is paint a picture of what this world, this company, this team, this family can look like and give us a map to get there.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, Margaret, you have a new assignment.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: You're going into XYZ organization, and you're gonna advise them on their strategic narrative and the quality of their communication throughout their organization.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's a large, complex organization.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: How do you enter?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that you do?
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: What do you pay attention to?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of what's your process for getting immersed enough before you can provide that kind of guidance?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of times what I do is one, I try to do as much, first of all, outside research as I possibly can before I go in.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I have an idea of some of the things that they're facing, not everything, but some of the challenges.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: I love to talk to a person's leadership team before I actually talk to the leader themselves.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I try to gather as much information as I can before I actually sit down with the, you know, the boss.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to learn about that person.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: I want to find out like, how did you get here?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, the really receptive ones sort of understand the reason that I'm doing that is because it informs how they lead, it informs the messaging.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's it, you know, I can make more authentic messaging when I do that.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: It tells me what's important to them, like, you know, their kind of origin story, their genesis story.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then we kind of get into the different places and how um, what do you think isn't working?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think is working well?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: What feels most authentic to you?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: There's an iterative process of learning how to capture the voice of a CEO who really is the voice of a company, right?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: And um again, I said that has to be really authentic.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: And really, you do that by developing a relationship with someone.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: I say to people, if they hire me to do some messaging or speech writing or something like that, I'm not gonna get it right right away.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not like I'm gonna learn this, and I'm gonna learn by um reading what you've done.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna talk to your people, I'm gonna go to some of the speeches that you give.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: When I write them, it's an iterative process.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: So you got to tell me, you gotta be honest with me, this doesn't feel right to me.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't feel authentic, and we can have a conversation about that.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it hopefully the iterative process gets less and less and less.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: So the first time I write a speech for somebody or I help a company come up with a narrative, um, you know, there's gonna be a lot of back and forth, and that's expected because I'm learning a new language in a lot of ways and learning how you communicate, but hopefully it gets less and less and less.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then eventually, you know, we have a shorthand that we can talk about.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'm gonna add this piece to it because I know that's important.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I had a um a leader that I'm doing a lot of speeches for, um, a lot of messaging and speeches for, and I added something to her speech, and she said to me, How did how did you know to add that in?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I've heard you say, uh, you know, that's how you greet people, or that's how like take good care of yourself, you know.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I use a it's really important to lose a lot of the language that they already use and to sort of weave that into all of it.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, I I can write the Gettysburg Address, but if it doesn't sound like them, it's not going to be impactful or powerful.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Can I throw you a curveball here?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have access to your most recent Substack post?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: I would love you to read the first couple of paragraphs of that because they so move it so move me.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: This is called gratitude and the gutter.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: Occasionally I feel like a bit of a fraud.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: Most days I write from the other side of the mountain, the soft landing, the lesson learned, the words neatly arranged in pretty prose.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: What I often leave out is the middle part, the pain that preceded the pulpit, the long hours in the dark, waiting for the sweet bird to sing.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe that's a disservice to you, dear reader.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oscar Wilde once wrote, We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: I always eventually look up at the stars, but not before I've examined every mud-soaked inch of the ditch I've landed in.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: Today I'm in the gutter, and I don't know why.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for oh my god.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: And there's more, dear listeners.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: So go read the rest of that from Margaret.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: That is so beautiful and so truthful and so raw.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're comfortable playing in that level of vulnerability.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: How do you tease a leader into the next level of candor, vulnerability, authenticity, authentic expression, then he or she might not be comfortable or experienced with?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: There is a distinction between, you know, these Substack writings that I have, and they to me are much more personal, and it's new for me, and it's it's a it's a very daunting, vulnerable place to go.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: And that doesn't always translate well into a company.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm not telling people to a leader to get up and start talking about like these big things.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: But I do, I do understand what you're saying, and I think that there is uh such a value in vulnerability for a leader and for them to show parts of themselves because again, I think it's all about connection and showing that I get you, I see you, I understand what you're going through, I'm going through it myself.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, and there's a lot of leaders that are hesitant to do that.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: They don't like to tell personal parts of themselves.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: And some absolutely refuse.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like some are like, you know, I'm just not gonna do that.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've had, I've tried to thread in with some clients some kind of personal stuff, and it doesn't work.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it it's not authentic to them, they're not comfortable with it.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's really dependent upon the person.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: What is inspiring you right now?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: What are you reading, uh listening to, that's just, you know, lighting you up?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, okay, this is the sticks in me.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm an Enneagram stick.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: So the sticks in me was stacking my books up the other night, and I was like looking at the ones that I read.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I saw this theme, which I didn't realize.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: I have, I have literally probably 80% of the stuff I've read this year are memoirs.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not, I know it's not typical books that I reach for, but I think because I started this Substack page, and I'm super, super interested in somebody that starts here and goes here, right?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: And and that's what memoirs are to me.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like I love, I'm uh such a big fan of like Joseph Campbell and the hero's journey.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it's all about like you start in this one place and you have to move into an uncomfortable place, and there's challenges and struggles, and you come out the other side different, right?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: And like, so I've just read so many memoirs that are unbelievably um beautiful and raw.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I just love that concept of starting here and going there.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: And is there a particular Substack author besides yourself that we should be paying attention to?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: I just um last summer I became familiar with Andrea Gibson, who was who was the poet laureate of Colorado, and they were a spoken word poet.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: And just, I mean, like when you talk about like somebody who has the ability to like evoke emotion, she unfortunately passed away in July, and I've just been like consuming everything I can of Andrea Gibson, and there's a great Substack that her um partner continues, and it's a lot of her work, so I read a lot of that stuff.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: When I write a Substack, I almost always one of two things like makes me run to my computer.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it's I have a thought that I want to challenge, something that I'm like, is that true?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is that really, really true?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: Or if something just lodges in me and I don't understand it, like something that just kind of catches me and I'm like, I can't stop thinking about it.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I gravitate really towards um that type of writing that that like you you start from one place and then you kind of end up in every everything I've ever written, I end up in a different place than I've started.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: The transformative power of writing.
• 40:54
  unknown: Yeah.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Especially when it is to understand and uh make sense of your own thoughts and your own feelings.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's one of my one of my very favorite quotes.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's an Arthur Miller quote.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: I have it right there.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: It says, I write, everything I write is both confessional and a way for me to make sense of the world I live in.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's what I that's what I do.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I that's what my Substack is, not what my professional piece is, but that's what my Substack is, a way to meet for me to be honest about where I am.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's why it resonates with people, because I am unvarnished in it, and because it helps me make sense of the world that I'm in.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: Margaret, thank you.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: You've been so generous with your time and your your ideas.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't know what else to say.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: Every time I read something you've written or talk to you, I'm just touched in a very important and deep way.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I so value you for who you are, how you show up in the world, how you struggle through stuff like the rest of us.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and now your work to make sense on a very deep and human level.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: I so appreciate you.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, and I so appreciate you too.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're such a big deal to me.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know how to explain that in any other way.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: I just just literally knowing that you're someplace in this world operating, and I can reach out to you if I need you means so much to me.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so grateful.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Margaret.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll put notes in the um in the outro for this.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: But if you haven't followed Margaret on Substack, please do so.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: And also, Margaret is a very, very talented corporate communications um advisor uh to organizations of um a variety of sizes and um uh very talented.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: So Margaret, thank you.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for your time, and uh I look forward to our next chance to interview.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, me too.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: Some things Margaret said really stood out to me.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: She said, with a single word you can uplift and connect, or you can incite and divide.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: She also advised to tap into the commonality of the things all generations care about when dealing with multi-generational issues.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I love how she defined empathy as a talent or skill when she said empathy is the ability to communicate and touch someone's heart and make them feel seen and heard.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: A word of advice to all listeners she carries that same wisdom and humanity into her writing.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: So sign up for her Substack at Margaret Aiken.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: Life is great, and then it's shitty.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're here for all of it and for each other.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, friends, step wise.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: If this conversation was worth your time, and I hope it was, do one thing for me before you close the app.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: It takes sixty seconds.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's how people like you help people like me find this show.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: And if what we talked about today sparks something in you, good.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's the whole point.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's a book called Leadership Rethinking the True Path to Great Leading.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's the real title, that goes deeper into this territory.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's on my website at fostermobbly.com.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: Check it out and then sign up for our email list to be notified when my next book, Honoring, goes into pre-sale in 2027.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: And if there's one person in your life who needed to hear this episode, send it to them.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: Not because we need the numbers, because they need the conversation.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Set the table, invite cool people, magic happens.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Foster Mobley.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: As always, friends, step wise.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: Our music for season three is composed and performed by Montana musical legend Philip Auburn, courtesy of Sweetgrass Music.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: Phil's recent passing was felt by many, including those of us associated with this podcast.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not familiar with Phil's Grammy nominated music, do yourself a favor and follow him on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your music.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: We thank Patty Auburgh and Sweetgrass Music for access to this beautiful piece.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to Stepwise.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: Stepwise is produced, edited, and promoted by Zedist with support from Amber Gillard Consulting.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: Find more episodes and resources at fostermobli.com.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: And follow Foster on social media at FosterMobley.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next time.