Latest / Influencer Confidential / Influencer Talent Manager Jen Powell Spills ALL: Brand Deals, Product Lines & Scaling as a Creator [Creator Currency Ep. 18]

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Influencer Talent Manager Jen Powell Spills ALL: Brand Deals, Product Lines & Scaling as a Creator [Creator Currency Ep. 18] · Influencer Confidential

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Speaker 1: You guys, I am so excited to announce today's guests
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Speaker 1: on Influencer Confidential. When I first learned about Jen Powell,
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Speaker 1: I was like, I need to meet this woman. And
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Speaker 1: that is why I'm so pumped about our podcast, because
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Speaker 1: it gives me and you the opportunity to learn from
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Speaker 1: the best.
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Speaker 2: So.
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Speaker 1: Jen Powell is one of the pioneering strategists and one
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Speaker 1: of the original architects of the influencer industry. She is
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Speaker 1: a powerhouse in.
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Speaker 2: So many ways.
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Speaker 1: In two thousand and eight, while she was at Next Management,
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Speaker 1: she was one of the first to represent fashion bloggers
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Speaker 1: as commercial talent, helping evolve the businesses of Roomy, Neely
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Speaker 1: Sincerely Jules and Kiara Farragni through high impact partnerships and
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Speaker 1: seven figure brand deals Okay. In twenty seventeen, she launched
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Speaker 1: her own namesake, creed or Talent Agency, focus on building
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Speaker 1: brands with and for digital first talent. By twenty twenty,
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Speaker 1: she expanded her vision launching Lemon Digital HQ, a full
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Speaker 1: service firm offering digital strategy and influencer marketing for brands.
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Speaker 1: Known for her holistic approach, Powell guides creators beyond content
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Speaker 1: into entrepreneurship, licensing and long term brand deals. In twenty
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Speaker 1: twenty five, she launched lemon Iq, a gen Z focus
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Speaker 1: group platform for brands and the creator Path to product
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Speaker 1: and educational resource, helping influencers turn the creative capital into
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Speaker 1: scalable licensing businesses. Powell has been featured in Bloomberg, Forbes,
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Speaker 1: Business of Fashion, Vogue, Business, CNBC, and Business Insider. She
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Speaker 1: is a recipient of the Business of Fashion five hundred,
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Speaker 1: recognizing the people shaping the global fashion industry. Based between
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Speaker 1: Los Angeles and Nashville, Powell continues to shape the future
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Speaker 1: of the creator economy, empowering talent to become impactful entrepreneurs
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Speaker 1: and industry leaders. Y'all get ready to meet one of
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Speaker 1: the influencer world's first talent managers who has seen beyond
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Speaker 1: some of the biggest brand deals and is going to
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Speaker 1: be sharing so much knowledge here today. I cannot wait
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Speaker 1: for you guys to meet Jen. Let's go ahead and
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Speaker 1: jump in well, Welcome Jen to Influencer Confidential. I am
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Speaker 1: so pumped to have you here. You are just like
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Speaker 1: a megastar and the behind the scenes world of influencers.
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Speaker 3: Whenever we think of influencer, creator economy.
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Speaker 1: We think of the people forward facing, but you are
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Speaker 1: like the mastermind behind behind the scenes. And I'm so
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Speaker 1: excited for so many people listening in to get to
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Speaker 1: know you and learn a little bit about your work
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Speaker 1: and what you're doing.
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Speaker 3: So I'm really pumped. So thanks for being here.
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Speaker 2: Thanks so having me, Nina. This is my favorite thing
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Speaker 2: to do. I love think about. This is just the best.
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Speaker 3: It's a cool Let's.
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Speaker 1: Let's start off like how you tell us a little
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Speaker 1: bit about like what do you do, a little bit
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Speaker 1: about your company, and then how you kind of got
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Speaker 1: into the world of influencer management.
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Speaker 2: Cool. So I was a model agent for like twenty years, yeah,
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Speaker 2: starting in the late nineties, and I came down to
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Speaker 2: Los Angeles in two thousand and five with Next Models
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Speaker 2: and was running the women's board there. In two thousand
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Speaker 2: and eight, one of the very first fashion bloggers at
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Speaker 2: the time, Rumy Neely from Fashion Toast, was introduced to me.
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Speaker 2: But I know it was those were the olden days,
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Speaker 2: and it was so exciting, and I was so curious
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Speaker 2: about what she was doing because she had this blog
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Speaker 2: and people were sending her clothes. Urban Outfitters, Tixie Market,
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Speaker 2: all these guys are sending her clothes and she was
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Speaker 2: shooting them and putting it on our blog and linking
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Speaker 2: out and everything was selling out, and I was like,
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Speaker 2: wait one minute, like this could be really cool and
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Speaker 2: like valuable, right, So I represented her and that year
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Speaker 2: we did so many interesting cool things, like she was
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Speaker 2: on like the mood board for Angaro in Paris, Like
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Speaker 2: it was like wild interesting things that were happening in
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Speaker 2: the world. And I didn't know that this was going
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Speaker 2: to be a thing. But then I think about two
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Speaker 2: years later, Kiara Farani came to me from The Blonde
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Speaker 2: Salad and she's this big Italian influencer and she was
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Speaker 2: so cool, her and her boyfriend and they're like, we
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Speaker 2: want to do what Rumy's doing, and so we brought
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Speaker 2: her over to us and she became a huge success.
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Speaker 3: Obviously obviously she's just like OG, you.
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Speaker 2: Know, yes, And then I all of like the very
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Speaker 2: first international fashion girls came to meet Christina Beizon from
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Speaker 2: kchure Gaalaganzalez from Spain and her blog Am Lil, and
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Speaker 2: then I had Sincerely Jewels and og og.
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Speaker 1: These are the OG creators. This must have been like
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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, right, like around there.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, two thousand and eight to like twelve, twenty twelve,
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Speaker 2: I did the very first Revolve influencer deal. It was
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Speaker 2: a blogger deal with Roomy. At the time, it was
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Speaker 2: just the very beginning and we were trying new things
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Speaker 2: and it was so exciting, and pretty soon these girls
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Speaker 2: were making more money than the models were, and so
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Speaker 2: next as a whole, they were like, wow, okay, so
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Speaker 2: maybe we're on something here. And so I started the
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Speaker 2: Special Bookings Division. We had to figure out a name
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Speaker 2: for it, and it was Special Bookings Division in LA
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Speaker 2: New York and then London, Paris. So I was working
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Speaker 2: with so many of the international gals too, was trying
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Speaker 2: to figure out how this works into every market. And
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Speaker 2: then Bloomberg called and they wanted me on. And because
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Speaker 2: all of the girls were sitting front row with Fashion
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Speaker 2: Week and it was becoming disruptive and interesting, and like
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Speaker 2: the magazines were like, what is this? Why are these
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Speaker 2: girls sitting next to me in front row? And so
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Speaker 2: it was like it was a moment in time. So
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Speaker 2: I did CNBC and MSNBC and all of the everything
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Speaker 2: vote business and business of fashion and stuff. So it
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Speaker 2: was very validating for me. But also at the same
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Speaker 2: time for me, it was thrilling, like it was so disruptive.
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Speaker 2: I was like, wait, this is so fun. So I
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Speaker 2: mean so then we were like, oh, dang, they're making money.
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Speaker 2: So anyway, I started my own business in twenty seventeen,
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Speaker 2: the purpose being that I wanted to license product, I
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Speaker 2: wanted to start brands and businesses with them. What I
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Speaker 2: was doing didn't necessarily live within a modeling agency anymore,
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Speaker 2: even though I had like the best support and my
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Speaker 2: best friend is the president of Next Models in LA
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Speaker 2: and I love him so much, but I knew I
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Speaker 2: needed to do it outside of this and build it
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Speaker 2: in a way that I thought, like, really serviced this
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Speaker 2: sort of talent. So I started my agency, Jennifer Pell Inc.
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Speaker 2: In twenty seventeen and built my team, and then in
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Speaker 2: twenty twenty, I started a marketing company for influencer marketing
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Speaker 2: campaigns and social strategy with a partner, and so now
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Speaker 2: I am just running both.
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Speaker 1: Now you just take over the world. Okay, yeah, no,
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Speaker 1: but yeah, all the things. But it's funny what you
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Speaker 1: mentioned too about like the initial piece was kind of
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Speaker 1: going through this agency, like the modeling agency, and I
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Speaker 1: think we see this in a lot of spaces like
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Speaker 1: where do influencers fit? You know, like I see it
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Speaker 1: from the PR side, you know, we were running traditional
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Speaker 1: PR campaigns for our hotels and our churs and boards,
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Speaker 1: but then.
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Speaker 3: Like do we just earn media?
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Speaker 1: Are we only working with Like the influencer was this round?
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Speaker 1: We couldn't figure out where to put them, you know,
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Speaker 1: and it makes sense with your background and agency side,
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Speaker 1: but then also being like, okay, this isn't traditional.
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Speaker 3: This is like like a different space.
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Speaker 1: So it almost needed its own space to be in, like,
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Speaker 1: well the career are now, you.
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Speaker 3: Know, agreed.
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Speaker 2: I think the good thing about being a traditional agent
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Speaker 2: in the space though, is that I also knew how
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Speaker 2: much money the brands had, so then we were able
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Speaker 2: to try to figure out what the posting was worth,
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Speaker 2: and so there was like place to jump off from.
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Speaker 1: You know.
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Speaker 2: It wasn't like just pulling numbers out of the sky.
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Speaker 2: Like there were some like thoughtful not necessarily analytics behind it.
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Speaker 2: At the beginning especially, it was just like seeing what works,
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Speaker 2: but knowing what they had to spend and knowing what
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Speaker 2: the value was on like a model for their you know,
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Speaker 2: image and lightness and to shoot so we came for
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Speaker 2: at least there was a good perspective, you know, which is.
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Speaker 1: Interesting that you bring this up and this is going
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Speaker 1: off cop and I'll try to keep us like centered
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Speaker 1: into them because I feel like we could go all over.
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Speaker 1: But what's interesting is when I think like traditional models, right,
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Speaker 1: especially at things around likeness and usage, you know, like
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Speaker 1: maybe models and you tell me, because I have no
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Speaker 1: experience on the side, but like you would assume, Okay,
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Speaker 1: they have their day rates and they're getting paid for
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Speaker 1: these campaigns and their faces are on billboards and or wherever,
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Speaker 1: and they're just everywhere, but now with the influencer, and
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Speaker 1: they're like this whole idea of likeness and charging for
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Speaker 1: that versus traditional model just like a canvas that is there.
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Speaker 1: I mean, were you guys at the early ages realizing
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Speaker 1: that you could charge more for this and putting kind
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Speaker 1: of bundling that in because from a traditional model perspective,
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Speaker 1: it kind of felt like the people that have these
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Speaker 1: built in communities were maybe potentially have a higher CPM,
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Speaker 1: more more to charge for than just a traditional model
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Speaker 1: or is that like what are our thoughts there?
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Speaker 2: No completely and what was happening at the beginning, and
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Speaker 2: it was making me insane. Is that the brands were
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Speaker 2: putting in posting into a model's job, right. They were
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Speaker 2: meant to shoot the campaign or shoot whatever it was,
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Speaker 2: and then post a couple of times. And I'm like, wait,
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Speaker 2: that's you guys need to be charging incremental fees. Is
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Speaker 2: what I was telling a lot of my other agents,
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Speaker 2: my peers, and hard at the beginning for them to understand.
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Speaker 2: But I'm like, Okay, my girls are making more money
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Speaker 2: from one post than yours are for shooting the campaign.
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Speaker 2: But I really think that everybody needs to listen to me.
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Speaker 2: And it's hard being the first one doing something, and
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Speaker 2: it's hard teaching a very old traditional business to make
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Speaker 2: very big changes to how it runs. So they caught
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Speaker 2: on over time, like the more traditional markets were more difficult, definitely,
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Speaker 2: Like the Europeans came kind of after the American talent
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Speaker 2: started doing these things, and you have to have a
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Speaker 2: different strategy per market to be very thoughtful. There was
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Speaker 2: a lot of education around it and why there was
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Speaker 2: also agents that made models at the beginning take down
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Speaker 2: their social media and I'm like, oh my god, please don't.
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Speaker 1: Wild And now I almost feel like you get booked
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Speaker 1: if you have the fall up doing in different ways.
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Speaker 1: You know, we were just talking about this at lunch,
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Speaker 1: like if you have a certain built in community, it's
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Speaker 1: like jumping.
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Speaker 2: The ladder in a way, right, yeah, because it's it's
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Speaker 2: built in marketing for.
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Speaker 3: In addition to crap.
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Speaker 1: So was that the that's probably the aha, Like once
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Speaker 1: you started to see I'm assuming what that incremental jump was,
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Speaker 1: that's probably when you were like, wait a second, hold on,
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Speaker 1: and because what you mentioned and we're going to talk
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Speaker 1: about this in depth a little bit later, is that
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Speaker 1: you kind of realize, Okay, these creators, these gals, these
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Speaker 1: og girls are going from building now just influencers to
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Speaker 1: their own businesses. You briefly mentioned licensing, and you briefly
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Speaker 1: mentioned so that's kind of that was your aha moment, Like,
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Speaker 1: wait a second, these we got we gotta they got
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Speaker 1: to become their own businesses.
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Speaker 3: Correct, Yes, well it was.
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Speaker 2: It was the realization when Rumy was linking out to
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Speaker 2: certain products and it was selling out, and then so
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Speaker 2: I was thinking, of course, this is going to be
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Speaker 2: valuable for X brands, like duh, this is what they're
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Speaker 2: trying to do, and they're directly like they could track
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Speaker 2: how this girl sells. So this is important. And then
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Speaker 2: in the similar way was when we started doing capsule collections,
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Speaker 2: which is when I really was able to understand the
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Speaker 2: value and the way that we could sell. And then
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Speaker 2: the addition of reward style and the affiliates, that really
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Speaker 2: was like, Oh, now I can really understand and drill
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Speaker 2: down into the data. I have data points, Like wow,
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Speaker 2: we have it all, we have every tool here. It
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Speaker 2: was like the most exciting. I still get chills.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, especially how you just mentioned that the data point
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Speaker 1: from the the affiliate side too. So You've worked with
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Speaker 1: so many really really major celebrity style creators influencers, and
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Speaker 1: I think a lot of creators listening in, you know,
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Speaker 1: they're probably curious, like what makes these.
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Speaker 3: Gals you know so magnetic or.
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Speaker 1: Some common traits that your most successful girls or guys
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Speaker 1: or whoever you are uppers at as a talent manager,
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Speaker 1: What is it behind the curtain? Share with us some
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Speaker 1: of that perspective.
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Speaker 2: It's a couple of things. It's definitely consistency. It's consistency
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Speaker 2: of doing the post and the thing every day and
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Speaker 2: no days off, especially in the beginning, which is hard.
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Speaker 2: It's just hard. But there's tools now to manage these things,
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Speaker 2: to be able to get content up and to be
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Speaker 2: able to like content bank, to shoot a bunch of things,
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Speaker 2: and then to be able to roll it out so
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Speaker 2: you can have a little bit of a break, a
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Speaker 2: brain vacation. There are incredible multitaskers. Generally they are balancing
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Speaker 2: a lot of things, and at the beginning they aren't
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Speaker 2: like full time content creators. This is like a side
12:45
Speaker 2: hustle until it's a main hustle. So they have a
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Speaker 2: day job and they have perhaps a family or not,
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Speaker 2: or they're young and they're going to college. They all
12:55
Speaker 2: have something else going on. But they manage it sometimes well,
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Speaker 2: sometimes not well. At the beginning especially, they need to
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Speaker 2: adhere to timelines and to creative briefs. They're easy like
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Speaker 2: at the beginning, I think is so important to create
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Speaker 2: ease with the client that makes them want to come back.
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Speaker 2: There's a lot of options now, right, this is like
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Speaker 2: an actual career that people try to do, So there's
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Speaker 2: a lot of options. So they have to show up
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Speaker 2: on time and they have to do the thing on time.
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Speaker 2: They have to shoot on time, and they have to
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Speaker 2: hit the points that they're meant to, so I think
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Speaker 2: that they all know those things. There's some bad behavior
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Speaker 2: that creeps in, I think as the career grows. But
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Speaker 2: it's also because I think there's management that needs to
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Speaker 2: happen at that point. That it's about building internal infrastructures
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Speaker 2: of businesses, but at the beginning, it's really important for consistency, multitasking.
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Speaker 2: Things like that that are just like the most basic
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Speaker 2: but are so important, and they're so important to me
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Speaker 2: when I'm considering talent. And the weirdest thing Nina is
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Speaker 2: like I would say fifty percent of our girls are aries.
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Speaker 2: And I'm not like a total nerd about this stuff,
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Speaker 2: but I'm like, what is it?
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Speaker 3: Can somebody that.
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Speaker 2: Knows anything about horoscopes talk to me about this?
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Speaker 1: Because please, that's wild because I'm a horoscope really and
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Speaker 1: I would have thought you would have mentioned, like, you know,
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Speaker 1: that's so interesting.
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Speaker 3: I don't know a lot about aries. I'm going to
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Speaker 3: look it up.
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Speaker 2: I am telling you. I'm like, let me guess you're
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Speaker 2: an aries, like.
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Speaker 1: It is, like I wonder and that's like march, Well,
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Speaker 1: they're fiery signs, so maybe you need more.
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Speaker 2: Specific people that beginning of a lot of April babies.
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Speaker 2: I don't know, it's like every day we're wishing somebody
14:31
Speaker 2: a happy birthday as well.
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Speaker 1: You like, I don't know, who knows what about Like
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Speaker 1: you're seeing these big brand deals. You're managing these brand deals,
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Speaker 1: and you know when you got something good on the hook, right,
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Speaker 1: you're like, I know, like we're gonna knock it out,
14:43
Speaker 1: and you know the worth of your girls or the
14:45
Speaker 1: guys that you represent, So like, what are something that
14:48
Speaker 1: excite your the brand clients. I know you're managing brand
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Speaker 1: partnerships as while you mentioned that part of your business,
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Speaker 1: but from the traditional manager perspective, like what makes a
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Speaker 1: brand excited to work with a creator?
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Speaker 2: I think it's the wi willingness of the partner to
15:01
Speaker 2: be to create a relationship. And I think that everybody
15:06
Speaker 2: when pitching or when considering going into something with a brand,
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Speaker 2: they need to consider it a beginning of a relationship.
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Speaker 2: And even for me, That's how I've built my entire
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Speaker 2: business as relationships. It's not like I've done press like
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Speaker 2: I am fully behind the scenes, it is one hundred
15:23
Speaker 2: percent about relationships. For I think the brands too, because
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Speaker 2: the brands are like they get a gazillion emails every day,
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Speaker 2: and when you're really a lover of the brand, then
15:35
Speaker 2: they are they will believe it. And also when you
15:38
Speaker 2: care about the content that you're putting out or that
15:40
Speaker 2: you're going to deliver, they love when talent is like
15:44
Speaker 2: what's your goal? Like, what is your goal? How can
15:47
Speaker 2: I get you there? And how can I be a
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Speaker 2: good partner? So I think that from the brand side,
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Speaker 2: that's what they're looking for. They're like, is this partner
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Speaker 2: going to be somebody that wants to help us get
15:59
Speaker 2: us where we're trying to be. I mean it's pretty basic, right.
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Speaker 1: But but what you're saying is that word partner. You know,
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Speaker 1: that's almost like client services, Like once influencers see them, yeah,
16:10
Speaker 1: see themselves as like service.
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Speaker 3: Providers, like what are your goals? Like how can I
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Speaker 3: help you?
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Speaker 1: You know, having that professional mentality, like especially when these
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Speaker 1: creators want to get these brands on retainer or longer
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Speaker 1: term partnerships, they have to be thinking like that, not
16:22
Speaker 1: that one night's stand approach, but kind of that how
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Speaker 1: can I serve you?
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Speaker 3: How can I bring value?
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Speaker 2: You know, you are providing a service that they are
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Speaker 2: contracting you to do, and they're doing that instead of
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Speaker 2: having like a model shoot something that they're controlling. So
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Speaker 2: it truly is like what do you want and how
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Speaker 2: can I create ease in getting there? And like success
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Speaker 2: And also I think going into everything knowing that at
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Speaker 2: the end of the day, most of these brands are
16:50
Speaker 2: trying to sell things right and as unsexy as that is,
16:54
Speaker 2: like because it is, it's like this, it's super un sexy,
16:57
Speaker 2: but you need to go in understanding that they are
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Speaker 2: trying to sell a product to service something and you're
17:03
Speaker 2: telling that story.
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Speaker 3: So, yeah, you mentioned the word control.
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Speaker 1: Do you find that the bigger the brand is the
17:10
Speaker 1: harder it is for them to relinquish control because again,
17:13
Speaker 1: like you said, we could hire a model, we can
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Speaker 1: do it our way, we can say exactly how we want,
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Speaker 1: we could set it up.
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Speaker 3: To be perfect, right.
17:20
Speaker 1: Or do you do you find that is there some
17:22
Speaker 1: sort of like inverse relationship or positive correlation the bigger
17:26
Speaker 1: the brand, the more you know, stricter guidelines or do
17:29
Speaker 1: you find that that's also maybe lessened up and some
17:32
Speaker 1: of your big brand clients are like, hey, you go
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Speaker 1: for it, Like you're seeing more trust in the market.
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Speaker 3: Are brands being more trusting of talent, you know.
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Speaker 2: With the opposite, it's like I think that the bigger
17:43
Speaker 2: the brand is, the more they're like, go do you
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Speaker 2: and this is the goal and this is the like
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Speaker 2: content brief and you're like okay, like I can do
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Speaker 2: something cool with this. But the brands that might have
17:55
Speaker 2: less funding more to lose there they are act with
18:00
Speaker 2: less talent. I think that they're more prescriptive and less
18:04
Speaker 2: willing to be flexible. Also, there's agencies that are coming
18:10
Speaker 2: between the talent and the brand, and a lot of
18:14
Speaker 2: times that agencies don't want to lose the brands either,
18:17
Speaker 2: so they have very specific goals and KPIs to hit
18:21
Speaker 2: to keep that brand. So the agencies a lot of
18:25
Speaker 2: times kind of layer in their own priorities onto these campaigns,
18:30
Speaker 2: which then do impact the amount of freedom and flexibility
18:34
Speaker 2: and all of these things because they have their own
18:36
Speaker 2: goals too, So you kind of have to think about
18:38
Speaker 2: it that way too. Then there's two teams that you're
18:41
Speaker 2: trying to make happy. It's like a lot of people
18:45
Speaker 2: to please here.
18:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, but what you're saying is such goal because I
18:48
Speaker 1: you know, I have experience on the agency side, and
18:50
Speaker 1: I always think like, well, the agency's charging this fat
18:53
Speaker 1: retainer because they're trying to keep their clients, you know, happy,
18:57
Speaker 1: And then the creator's adding and are the are the
18:59
Speaker 1: agency maybe withholding budget? Oh well we don't have that,
19:02
Speaker 1: and you're like yeah, because you're getting that, you know,
19:04
Speaker 1: like let's let's call a spade a spain, right, So
19:07
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people wanting And that's why
19:09
Speaker 1: I said in the beginning of this combo, it was
19:11
Speaker 1: at least in the beginning, it was hard to place
19:12
Speaker 1: influencers like where do do do we deal with their
19:15
Speaker 1: marketing agencies?
19:16
Speaker 3: Do we deal with their big pr agencies? Like?
19:18
Speaker 1: And you know, I think there's a lot more clarity now.
19:20
Speaker 1: But to your point, the more chefs in the kitchen,
19:23
Speaker 1: the more people you gotta.
19:24
Speaker 2: Please one hundred percent. And so just know that you're
19:27
Speaker 2: like one little guy that's trying to make a world
19:30
Speaker 2: happy and success happened. So it's a big responsibility.
19:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I feel like you have some not tea
19:37
Speaker 1: to spill, but like you are in it from the
19:40
Speaker 1: olden days to now, Like I feel like you've seen
19:43
Speaker 1: crazy brand deals, like you have probably been like wait,
19:46
Speaker 1: she got paid?
19:47
Speaker 3: What you know?
19:48
Speaker 1: And I think there's a little bit of secrecy around
19:50
Speaker 1: money in this space because people aren't It's not like
19:52
Speaker 1: there's a glass door. You know, Hey, we got a
19:54
Speaker 1: sixty thousand dollars partnership from Exonmobile, Like we don't see
19:58
Speaker 1: like the normal person doesn't that. But do you have
20:01
Speaker 1: any like memorable brand deals or any you know, things
20:04
Speaker 1: that kind of landed. You don't have to share the brand,
20:06
Speaker 1: but just in terms of things that you've kind of
20:08
Speaker 1: seen land on your desk, that kind of will let
20:11
Speaker 1: others listening in know like, wait, there's a significant funny.
20:14
Speaker 3: To be made.
20:15
Speaker 2: I think one of my favorite and most validating moments
20:18
Speaker 2: at the very beginning of my career was when we
20:21
Speaker 2: got the Laurel Paris Ambassador deal for Christina Beason and
20:26
Speaker 2: she was like with Julian Moore and Doubts and Cross
20:30
Speaker 2: and like all of these girls. So it was so excellent.
20:35
Speaker 2: She was at cann she looks stunning, like she was
20:37
Speaker 2: going to all the things, and she was part of
20:39
Speaker 2: that squad in a very traditional a very traditional squad, right,
20:44
Speaker 2: And so for me it was validating that we were
20:47
Speaker 2: being included and there was a seat at the table
20:50
Speaker 2: for digitally native talents. And it's almost like those moments
20:55
Speaker 2: that it's not necessarily yes, there's a lot of money
20:58
Speaker 2: associated with these big deals and things like that, but
21:00
Speaker 2: it's it was also just the moment of being accepted
21:04
Speaker 2: and validated at the table. It's when Kiara got the
21:08
Speaker 2: cover of Lucky magazine or Spanish Vogue. I mean, oh
21:11
Speaker 2: my gosh, those were moments. And then when I did
21:14
Speaker 2: my first capsule collection. I remember with Steve Madden and
21:18
Speaker 2: Kiara with blue blond salad. It was being soul. I
21:22
Speaker 2: didn't even know you're behind that in Europe. It was like,
21:25
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, like this is so wild and what
21:28
Speaker 2: an amazing opportunity to I mean, I sat down with Steve.
21:31
Speaker 1: It was wild, really wild, and I remember that capsule
21:34
Speaker 1: collection was like ionic.
21:35
Speaker 2: Yes it was a New York like it was.
21:39
Speaker 3: It was iconic.
21:40
Speaker 1: I probably crushed it, who knows, but that is an
21:42
Speaker 1: iconic moment, and I think to your point, it is
21:46
Speaker 1: so validating. I'm sure you saw Time just release their
21:49
Speaker 1: Top one hundred creators lists. You know, we're seeing Top
21:53
Speaker 1: Forbes Creators list like it is for someone like you
21:56
Speaker 1: that's been in this industry and helped build it from
22:00
Speaker 1: the ground up, you know, and our team as well,
22:02
Speaker 1: we've been around for the last ten years.
22:04
Speaker 3: Like it is so very.
22:05
Speaker 1: Validating seeing influencers, creators, you know, transition to CEOs, but
22:11
Speaker 1: also having this recognition like cans right now, Like when
22:15
Speaker 1: in my head my NBA marketing brain, like this was
22:18
Speaker 1: this old school marketing prestige. Like now there's creator events,
22:23
Speaker 1: Like creators were taking over Ken Like I know we
22:26
Speaker 1: are friend Resa is our LTK hosting them. I'm like,
22:29
Speaker 1: the creators are. It's like amazing.
22:32
Speaker 2: I mean, in my wildest dreams, I mean it made
22:35
Speaker 2: complete sense. Don't get me wrong, Like this made complete
22:38
Speaker 2: sense to me from the very beginning. But in my
22:40
Speaker 2: wildest dreams did I think that we were going to
22:43
Speaker 2: be really validated like this, And so like it's just
22:46
Speaker 2: thrilling for me to see other people have success too,
22:49
Speaker 2: and all these different creators I think finding a niche
22:52
Speaker 2: that is surprising, and I just I love it. It's
22:58
Speaker 2: so exciting to see the entrepreneur and the businesses being built.
23:01
Speaker 1: And yeah, I agree, I'm like it's super thrilling. Well,
23:05
Speaker 1: one thing I want to talk about before we jump
23:07
Speaker 1: into product licensing because and scaling, because I think I
23:10
Speaker 1: cannot wait to talk to you about that. But I
23:14
Speaker 1: want to talk about negotiation, and I think that that's
23:18
Speaker 1: something that you're really obviously in the thick of being,
23:22
Speaker 1: you know, a manager. You know, I want to talk
23:24
Speaker 1: about red flags. I want to talk about usage rights, exclusivity, things.
23:28
Speaker 3: That we may hear.
23:29
Speaker 1: We're not sure, especially for creators that don't have management,
23:32
Speaker 1: what should they know about negotiating with brands or is
23:35
Speaker 1: there any sort of negotiation one oh one, especially for
23:39
Speaker 1: those creators listening.
23:40
Speaker 2: In, well, it's loaded. I love to negotiate. It's the
23:44
Speaker 2: reason why I am what I am. I think the
23:46
Speaker 2: most important thing that I have taught my younger agents
23:51
Speaker 2: is that everybody has to feel like they've won, like
23:53
Speaker 2: to have a really good negotiation and to walk away
23:57
Speaker 2: from something or somebody that wants to work with you. Again,
24:00
Speaker 2: is that everybody needs to feel like they won. And
24:02
Speaker 2: so it's not always about going at the tip top
24:05
Speaker 2: of your rates. It's about getting somewhere that you know
24:10
Speaker 2: is going to perform and that they're going to want
24:12
Speaker 2: to come back. It is so important for the brand
24:16
Speaker 2: or the agency to also feel like they won. Then
24:18
Speaker 2: of course, usages there's been a lot of weird language
24:23
Speaker 2: in the usage section of contracts where it says use
24:27
Speaker 2: on any digital media created now or ever, Like, those
24:31
Speaker 2: things are obviously things that need to be inpetuity.
24:34
Speaker 1: Right, perpetuity N hear that word, it's silliness.
24:38
Speaker 2: Silliness. And there's also indemnifications that you have to look at,
24:44
Speaker 2: which there should always be a mutual indemnification in something
24:47
Speaker 2: in case something happens with brand, you each need to
24:50
Speaker 2: be indemnified. A lot of times there's insurances that they're
24:53
Speaker 2: wanting you to carry and.
24:55
Speaker 3: You don't even know that. You need to know, right,
24:57
Speaker 3: Like I saw that recently in the contract.
24:58
Speaker 1: They're like up to a million dollars something, and the
25:00
Speaker 1: creator was like, what do I do? I was like,
25:02
Speaker 1: looks like we need to take out an insurance just
25:04
Speaker 1: for this event.
25:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that's something that really has to
25:09
Speaker 2: be considered, but also is a part of the growth
25:12
Speaker 2: of a creator's business. Right, you need to get incorporated.
25:17
Speaker 2: You just need to talk to you like you're either
25:19
Speaker 2: whoever's accounting for you or your CPA. At what point
25:22
Speaker 2: do I need to get incorporated? Then get the business
25:25
Speaker 2: insurance and things like that. So if something happens. You know,
25:28
Speaker 2: you're not personally sued in your house doesn't get taken away,
25:31
Speaker 2: but it's suing the they're suing the business. So in
25:34
Speaker 2: a lot of these contracts you have to consider that
25:36
Speaker 2: because they need to be written out. The contracts need
25:38
Speaker 2: to be drafted to the business versus you as a
25:41
Speaker 2: person if you are incorporated. So there's things that have
25:45
Speaker 2: to happen, and you really do need to look into
25:48
Speaker 2: investment in your own business. You need to find your team,
25:52
Speaker 2: you need to find your accountant and your CPA and
25:56
Speaker 2: eventually your wealth manager or your insurance provider. It is
26:00
Speaker 2: a proper business and it needs to be invested in
26:03
Speaker 2: that way and it needs to be considered that as well.
26:06
Speaker 2: If this is what you want to do, this is
26:08
Speaker 2: what you need to do to make sure you have
26:10
Speaker 2: the foundation, a strong foundation of your business. Have an attorney.
26:14
Speaker 2: I hate paying attorneys and I pay them literally all
26:17
Speaker 2: the time. It makes me nuts. But there's some that
26:20
Speaker 2: you can find that you're like, I'm going to cap
26:22
Speaker 2: you at this certain budget and then you have to
26:25
Speaker 2: have conversation if they go over. But you do need
26:28
Speaker 2: to have some sort of like a business contract person
26:32
Speaker 2: on your side. There's a lot of brands that'll hit
26:35
Speaker 2: you up on DM I'm sure you guys all know
26:37
Speaker 2: that that's the easiest way to get to you. And
26:40
Speaker 2: also I think our marketing team does that too. When
26:44
Speaker 2: we can't figure out who manages somebody. People are hitting
26:47
Speaker 2: you up directly, and a lot of times they're coming
26:49
Speaker 2: to you because they know that they could probably get
26:52
Speaker 2: you cheaper than an agency would, which is fine in
26:54
Speaker 2: the beginning, to be honest with you, get your business
26:57
Speaker 2: flowing before you need to really consider manager or an agent.
27:01
Speaker 2: But really those are the things that you have to
27:03
Speaker 2: be so careful about. It's those things that I just mentioned.
27:07
Speaker 2: There's a lot of overreach in a lot of these contracts,
27:11
Speaker 2: and it would not not my design, would you?
27:14
Speaker 1: And would you say that sometimes, like in our experience,
27:17
Speaker 1: it's been that these are like a lot of times
27:19
Speaker 1: or you'd see standard contracts and the brand may just
27:22
Speaker 1: send it because they're sending it to everyone, you know,
27:24
Speaker 1: and it's kind of like up to the creator to advocate,
27:27
Speaker 1: to speak up to say, hey, you know section two A,
27:29
Speaker 1: like what does that mean? Or you know what, like no,
27:32
Speaker 1: I don't want this. And even if they don't accept it.
27:35
Speaker 1: Are you of the team you know, read through it
27:38
Speaker 1: or ask questions or you know, advocate because I think
27:41
Speaker 1: when it comes especially around usage, I find this to
27:45
Speaker 1: be like the pebble in the shoe where people just
27:48
Speaker 1: can't they feel like, wait a second, you want me
27:51
Speaker 1: to make this video, you want me to post on
27:53
Speaker 1: my page, but you also want to do.
27:55
Speaker 3: So much more with it.
27:56
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of times we see brands kind
27:58
Speaker 1: of taking advantage, you know, or and especially of younger
28:01
Speaker 1: creators that don't have someone like you in their corner
28:03
Speaker 1: to be like, that's not happening. So these sure, yeah,
28:06
Speaker 1: these young bucks have to like speak up for themselves.
28:09
Speaker 2: You know, everybody expects at least one round of red lines. Okay,
28:13
Speaker 2: everybody does, and if you don't, they're like there's an
28:17
Speaker 2: there's like she's green or he's great, like they're green.
28:21
Speaker 2: So I think that everybody expects a first round of
28:24
Speaker 2: red lines. And the terms that are offered to you
28:28
Speaker 2: on the email when you accept the job should be
28:31
Speaker 2: the same terms that are reflected on the contract. Always
28:34
Speaker 2: fine to have conversation. That being said, time is like
28:39
Speaker 2: the killer of every contract too. If you go if
28:41
Speaker 2: you're going around in circles for ten red lines, Like
28:44
Speaker 2: then everybody's like no, Like I'm good, We're agreed.
28:47
Speaker 3: It's just annoying.
28:49
Speaker 2: It's annoying at that point, like are we gonna get there?
28:51
Speaker 2: Are we not? Let's get to the point. And also
28:55
Speaker 2: by that time, you're in like three weeks and it's like,
28:57
Speaker 2: are we really doing this campaign? So just be aware
29:00
Speaker 2: that time is of the essence, but that it's very
29:05
Speaker 2: fair to ask for at least one or two rounds
29:07
Speaker 2: of red lines. And what I do a lot of
29:09
Speaker 2: is after I do the first round of red lines
29:12
Speaker 2: and the brand comes back and if there's more issues,
29:14
Speaker 2: I ask them to get on a phone call because
29:16
Speaker 2: at that point you're able to get through the points
29:18
Speaker 2: and figure out are we doing this or are we not?
29:20
Speaker 2: Like can we just quickly figure this out? Like, no
29:22
Speaker 2: more emails.
29:23
Speaker 1: I love that speed is actually your friend, right because
29:26
Speaker 1: I love what you said how time just.
29:28
Speaker 3: Is going to kill the deal.
29:28
Speaker 1: If you're just going back and forth, it's not fun
29:30
Speaker 1: for anyone, So nip it in the butt. Okay, So
29:34
Speaker 1: now I just want to dive into product licensing and expansion.
29:37
Speaker 3: I've been waiting.
29:38
Speaker 1: I feel like this is This is something that is
29:40
Speaker 1: so cool, especially for creators. I always kind of like
29:44
Speaker 1: that middle ground. You know, they've gotten brand partnerships, they
29:47
Speaker 1: have a study flow, they're already in the zone, and
29:51
Speaker 1: then they're thinking of being their own brand or developing
29:55
Speaker 1: their own brand.
29:56
Speaker 3: Right, everyone kind of has that little itch at some
29:58
Speaker 3: point in their creator journey.
30:00
Speaker 1: So let's start at the beginning and just in general,
30:02
Speaker 1: like when we talk about product licensing, like what does
30:05
Speaker 1: that mean and how is it different from like a
30:07
Speaker 1: typical brand collapse.
30:09
Speaker 2: So licensing is a word that can be used for
30:14
Speaker 2: brands that are licensing your image for their social media.
30:17
Speaker 2: Like licensing is using somebody else's ip on your brand.
30:22
Speaker 2: So it is kind of loaded because every even brand collaborations,
30:28
Speaker 2: like when we did Billabong and Sincerely Jewels, that is
30:31
Speaker 2: a license.
30:32
Speaker 3: Let's talk about it.
30:33
Speaker 1: So that's an influencer who is now working with a
30:36
Speaker 1: brand Billibong. It's like, right now, Alex Zirl for Hawaiian Tropic,
30:40
Speaker 1: I just saw the ads, right Sincerely Jewels for Billibong.
30:43
Speaker 3: She is creating capsule collections.
30:45
Speaker 1: So when you're talking about these sort of licensing or
30:47
Speaker 1: product licensing, you're talking about these sort of marriages between
30:50
Speaker 1: influencer and brand.
30:52
Speaker 2: Correct talking about that plus and we can get into
30:56
Speaker 2: that like the standalone licenses, but for we can go
31:00
Speaker 2: but one after the other.
31:01
Speaker 3: Yes, so like one being like Sincerely Jewels for Billabong.
31:04
Speaker 1: That's what we would consider like a you know these
31:06
Speaker 1: capsule collections where the creators maybe designing a set of
31:11
Speaker 1: things X, Y Z and they're putting their name on it,
31:14
Speaker 1: versus said creator creating her own line, right, which is right,
31:18
Speaker 1: second example.
31:19
Speaker 2: Right, So this particular collaboration with Billabong and Sincerely Jewels,
31:24
Speaker 2: it was such a great like growth and learning for
31:27
Speaker 2: me because we started off doing like social posts with
31:30
Speaker 2: Julie and Billabong many many years ago. She would post
31:33
Speaker 2: everything would sell out that she was wearing cool. Then
31:36
Speaker 2: they would give her the whole like the whole season
31:41
Speaker 2: of of you know of looks, and she would go
31:46
Speaker 2: with her husband to Tahiti and shoot the whole collection
31:49
Speaker 2: and she would turn in the assets, which would be
31:53
Speaker 2: then a full campaign. Then we're like, this is so
31:57
Speaker 2: successful together, why don't we do product together? So we
32:01
Speaker 2: did fifty pieces with Billabong. It was swim, some like
32:04
Speaker 2: denim and ready to wear there was hats, there was toats,
32:07
Speaker 2: there was a lot, and we sold in North and
32:11
Speaker 2: South America, Europe, in Apex. With this particular first collaboration,
32:16
Speaker 2: we did have retail partners. We had Nordstrum with the
32:20
Speaker 2: first one and then Bloomingdale's was the second one. But
32:23
Speaker 2: for the first one it was sold at retail and
32:26
Speaker 2: online on Billabong's e commerce, and then it was also
32:29
Speaker 2: sold at Nordstrum. So that is an example. The product
32:34
Speaker 2: collaboration is an example of a license. They used Julie's
32:38
Speaker 2: IP to put on product and that was that was
32:41
Speaker 2: a license. So that is one form of a license. Yes,
32:44
Speaker 2: love that and the case the easiest one to start
32:47
Speaker 2: with as a creator.
32:48
Speaker 1: Because you're also getting data right like, oh my gosh,
32:51
Speaker 1: I could do it for Billyabong, I could start my
32:52
Speaker 1: own right, So that's so these do you find that
32:56
Speaker 1: to technically be like an entry point when these creators
32:59
Speaker 1: are doing or do you see that creators are nowadays
33:01
Speaker 1: just going straight to developing their own things like they
33:03
Speaker 1: may not eat they could bypass or what's that looking like?
33:06
Speaker 2: Well, the thing that I love about this long, I
33:09
Speaker 2: mean this is a this is a not a sprint
33:12
Speaker 2: like we are here for the law, Like we're building businesses, right,
33:16
Speaker 2: So what we are we're able to get from that
33:20
Speaker 2: partnership was we learned who her who her customer was,
33:23
Speaker 2: not just who her follower was. We learned the price point,
33:26
Speaker 2: We learned where they want to buy. Are they buying
33:30
Speaker 2: mostly on eCOM? Are they buying in retail? How are
33:33
Speaker 2: we doing it Nordstrom? It was total like data, just
33:37
Speaker 2: party we had. It was like all data. It was
33:39
Speaker 2: so cool and we were able to take that and
33:43
Speaker 2: then create a very compelling package for Sincerely Jewels in
33:47
Speaker 2: being able to have standalone licensing partners for her brand.
33:52
Speaker 2: So that's kind of what comes next. So creators come
33:55
Speaker 2: to me a lot and they're like, I want to
33:57
Speaker 2: start a business. I'm like, cool, what do you do?
34:01
Speaker 2: You know what you sell? Well, like, what do you sell?
34:03
Speaker 2: What's the price point, who's your customer? All of those things.
34:08
Speaker 2: Most recently somebody said I don't know, and I'm like, well,
34:11
Speaker 2: we should probably figure that out before you want to
34:14
Speaker 2: go directly to a manufacturer and sink a cord of
34:17
Speaker 2: a million dollars in doing research and development. Right, So
34:20
Speaker 2: I think that the affiliate part of a creator's business
34:24
Speaker 2: is absolutely one of the most important things that they
34:26
Speaker 2: can do before they go out to market with their
34:29
Speaker 2: own product, because that gives you a lot of data.
34:32
Speaker 2: Like shot Maya at this point is giving us the
34:35
Speaker 2: most intricate visibility. LTK gives us enough right now to
34:39
Speaker 2: be able to make a lot of very good assumptions
34:43
Speaker 2: on how people sell and where they sell. So gathering
34:47
Speaker 2: all of this data is also compelling because then when
34:50
Speaker 2: you have a like say we have a brand partnership
34:53
Speaker 2: with seven for all Mankind, for instance, and we know
34:57
Speaker 2: that the we are able to link out to affiliates
35:01
Speaker 2: and they were like, dang her denim sells like crazy,
35:05
Speaker 2: Like maybe we need to look into this further, And
35:07
Speaker 2: then we kind of lean into Denham and that what
35:11
Speaker 2: I love is not spending half a million dollars to
35:14
Speaker 2: start your own brand, Like I'm not a fan of
35:17
Speaker 2: spending that much money to do something that's unproven. I
35:20
Speaker 2: think that there is a better way, which is licensing.
35:24
Speaker 2: If you are selling at that level, if you're selling
35:27
Speaker 2: a lot, there's licensing out agents out there like myself
35:31
Speaker 2: that are putting brand books together and talking directly to
35:34
Speaker 2: manufacturers to different brand management teams that are looking to
35:39
Speaker 2: license new marks, which means it's kind of like Martha
35:43
Speaker 2: Stewart or Paris Hilton. Let's use both of those as examples.
35:47
Speaker 2: Martha Stewart has the most massive licensing business. She has
35:51
Speaker 2: her own pots and pans, she has her own home stuff.
35:55
Speaker 2: Martha Stewart is not going out and doing R and
35:57
Speaker 2: D on her own pots and pans. She's going to
36:00
Speaker 2: a team that does that that also gets distribution for
36:04
Speaker 2: the product. So there's like this whole licensing world that
36:08
Speaker 2: I think that there's not really education around, but it
36:11
Speaker 2: is the way to build brands and businesses. Creators, I
36:15
Speaker 2: think do the best job at telling stories, at creating
36:20
Speaker 2: content and all of these things, and the information and
36:23
Speaker 2: data we get teaches us who their customer is. We
36:26
Speaker 2: just need to leave it to the professionals to do
36:29
Speaker 2: things like apparel design and manufacturing and distribution and all
36:34
Speaker 2: of those things. So there's this other way that we've
36:38
Speaker 2: been able to find to be able to create product
36:41
Speaker 2: that was a lot of information.
36:43
Speaker 3: No, I'm blown away. I'm so excited.
36:45
Speaker 1: And that's exactly now what you're kind of getting into
36:48
Speaker 1: right Like, now you're helping kind of usher creators that
36:52
Speaker 1: you know have no idea about this, because it's true
36:54
Speaker 1: when you're in the brand deal route, and this is
36:56
Speaker 1: what we teach with brand partnerships.
36:58
Speaker 3: So it's very my audience.
36:59
Speaker 1: Know, when you're in the brand deal route, you know,
37:02
Speaker 1: it's very different than developing your own brand. It's like
37:05
Speaker 1: developing your own brand, you know, going after product, launching
37:09
Speaker 1: your own well, like you call it the creator's path
37:12
Speaker 1: to product. Right once you start developing your own I
37:16
Speaker 1: mean you're definitely at a different at a different level.
37:18
Speaker 1: Is this correlated with follower count? Is there a pathway
37:22
Speaker 1: for smaller creators to start? So let's talk about that,
37:26
Speaker 1: because I think we always think linearly, oh well I
37:29
Speaker 1: have to be this to do that. But can smaller
37:31
Speaker 1: creators jump on in and start as well?
37:35
Speaker 2: Absolutely? I think with what Electric Picks has done, and
37:39
Speaker 2: I don't know how familiar you are with that jewelry brand,
37:42
Speaker 2: but they do collections all the time with smaller creators.
37:46
Speaker 2: And when creators start doing capsule collections at the very beginning,
37:52
Speaker 2: I think that it's validating, it's validating for you and
37:56
Speaker 2: your brand in product like it is the way to
38:00
Speaker 2: go at the beginning to test markets and to be
38:02
Speaker 2: able to tell the story of the way that your
38:05
Speaker 2: product sells.
38:06
Speaker 1: I think follower count, for some reason, just get some
38:09
Speaker 1: people's heads. It's like this pathway. If you hit this number,
38:12
Speaker 1: it opens a level for you. But it seems like
38:14
Speaker 1: you're saying that there is a path that isn't necessarily
38:18
Speaker 1: based on follower count. No.
38:22
Speaker 2: I think it's how you sell though. To be honest,
38:24
Speaker 2: I really think that that's an important thing. And there's
38:27
Speaker 2: so many creators that sell. Like your audience buys from you,
38:33
Speaker 2: you need to teach your audience to buy from you.
38:36
Speaker 2: It's like some creators are there because it's vivy and
38:40
Speaker 2: it's beautiful and blah blah blah. But there are some
38:43
Speaker 2: creators that sell like unbelievable. I represent this woman named
38:47
Speaker 2: Aaron Busby. She has Buzzby Style and the service she
38:52
Speaker 2: provides for women that are wanting to shop at different
38:56
Speaker 2: sizes different there are different body types. It's a more
38:59
Speaker 2: of a chore woman that wants that has a little
39:02
Speaker 2: bit of money, Like she knows exactly who her consumer is.
39:05
Speaker 2: She sells like crazy, and I don't she's not at
39:07
Speaker 2: a million. I don't even know that she's at five
39:09
Speaker 2: hundred thousand followers. But she has a website, which I
39:14
Speaker 2: think is really really important for a creator that wants
39:17
Speaker 2: to build a business like this and have product eventually.
39:20
Speaker 2: She has newsletters. It helps you create the IP of
39:24
Speaker 2: your brand, and I think it's a very important foundation
39:29
Speaker 2: for somebody that wants to get into product or like
39:32
Speaker 2: brand builds, because it tells more, It gives your custom
39:37
Speaker 2: more customer, more places to purchase from you. I think
39:40
Speaker 2: it's an owned space on the internet because at this point,
39:43
Speaker 2: if something happens to Instagram and these talent lose their
39:47
Speaker 2: Instagram for whatever reason, something gets hacked and it's gone,
39:50
Speaker 2: it's like, do you have a business anymore? I don't know. Yeah,
39:53
Speaker 2: no truly.
39:54
Speaker 3: I mean someone we know is going through like this
39:56
Speaker 3: right now.
39:57
Speaker 1: Her account the hacked and this and that, and it's
39:59
Speaker 1: like this seems this like product licensing. It seems like
40:03
Speaker 1: another way to fool proof you know, your your business.
40:07
Speaker 1: You mentioned some signs of people that are ready. You
40:10
Speaker 1: mentioned having a website, having some affiliate data where you're
40:14
Speaker 1: able to show Okay, wait a second, like there is
40:17
Speaker 1: some there.
40:18
Speaker 3: Is proof in the pudding here.
40:19
Speaker 1: You mentioned without saying it so bluntly, but like kind
40:22
Speaker 1: of good at selling and training your audience. You know,
40:25
Speaker 1: some people hate to sell. They get icked, it feels weird.
40:28
Speaker 1: And I tell creators this all the time, especially when
40:31
Speaker 1: they're fishing brand deals. I'm like, you're in sales. I
40:34
Speaker 1: know it hurts getting on a call. It feels funky,
40:37
Speaker 1: But guess what that's like part of like you put
40:39
Speaker 1: Like you said, some people just want to be about
40:40
Speaker 1: the vibe. It seems like those are some signs that
40:42
Speaker 1: people may be ready to then dive into licensing, especially
40:46
Speaker 1: if you're looking to, you know, build out your own
40:48
Speaker 1: brands and go speak to a manufacturer.
40:51
Speaker 3: That's how they know they're ready to take that jump.
40:53
Speaker 2: Yes, and if you start a business and a brand,
40:57
Speaker 2: I believe that one hundred percent of you guys are
41:00
Speaker 2: going to want to sell things. That's what we're trying
41:02
Speaker 2: to do, right, And so if that's the goal, then
41:04
Speaker 2: we have to get comfortable with supporting that goal. And
41:08
Speaker 2: I think that there's very classy, elegant, storytelling ways to
41:12
Speaker 2: sell for those that aren't like buy this and it
41:15
Speaker 2: feels like they're a hawking US car, there's a classier
41:18
Speaker 2: way to do it. But it's absolutely necessary.
41:22
Speaker 1: And it seems like that it's the next step that
41:23
Speaker 1: we're not thinking about as much, but how we need
41:27
Speaker 1: to start thinking about.
41:28
Speaker 3: You know more.
41:29
Speaker 1: This seems like a more intentional and strategic stepping point
41:32
Speaker 1: because a lot of creators maybe want to start but
41:36
Speaker 1: they don't know. So when it comes to you know,
41:39
Speaker 1: product licensing, and this may be a little bit of
41:42
Speaker 1: an elementary question, but I want to ask because I
41:45
Speaker 1: know a lot of the people my you know, creators
41:48
Speaker 1: that I start with, they'll start with stuff like, oh,
41:50
Speaker 1: let's do merch right, Like, oh, we're going to start
41:52
Speaker 1: with like a merch line.
41:53
Speaker 3: That's an example of product licensing.
41:55
Speaker 2: So with merch is it's something that has your mark
41:59
Speaker 2: on it and you're purchasing the inventory or it's being
42:03
Speaker 2: made to order. It's a safe way to start and
42:06
Speaker 2: to start gathering some data. I think once you have
42:10
Speaker 2: a business that is ready to move into new products
42:16
Speaker 2: things like that, then you have to bring in other
42:18
Speaker 2: partners that are able to that have their proficiencies, Like
42:21
Speaker 2: you don't want your sweatshirt guide to be creating I
42:24
Speaker 2: don't know, like if they can't do hats and they
42:27
Speaker 2: can't do hats or if they can't do say they're
42:29
Speaker 2: not doing hydration and water bottles, then you want your
42:33
Speaker 2: water bottle to guy to do the water bottles, and
42:34
Speaker 2: you want your sweatshirt guide to do your sweatshirts or
42:37
Speaker 2: whatever it is. You have to find the right teams
42:39
Speaker 2: that are proficient. And then there's a difference between selling
42:43
Speaker 2: merch on a website or through your social media, then
42:47
Speaker 2: selling product and getting it into Target or Nordstrom, or
42:53
Speaker 2: being able to really have a wholesale strategy to be
42:55
Speaker 2: able to build the brand as a product business. Right,
42:59
Speaker 2: So it's a little bit different. I think it's an
43:02
Speaker 2: excellent first start to see if there's an appetite as
43:05
Speaker 2: well and if people are buying into the brand, and
43:08
Speaker 2: to get to know your customer a little bit more.
43:10
Speaker 2: There's a community aspect of merch that I love. It's
43:13
Speaker 2: like you're my people, you know, we all.
43:16
Speaker 1: Are like, I'm wearing your hoodies because I listen to
43:18
Speaker 1: your podcast, you know.
43:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think might post it, which, by the way,
43:22
Speaker 2: we need to talk about yours, Nina.
43:25
Speaker 3: I know, I cannot wait to die.
43:27
Speaker 2: I haven't seen strategy, yes.
43:29
Speaker 1: Yes, well no, I And it's funny because my community
43:32
Speaker 1: knows or like I've always talked about, I think like
43:35
Speaker 1: there's such a market for a really cute creator merch,
43:38
Speaker 1: you know, our creator centric things.
43:40
Speaker 3: I'm a chotchkey buyer. I go to Barnes and Nobles.
43:43
Speaker 1: Those are the type of gifts I'm going to buy
43:44
Speaker 1: someone at Nordstrom, like a little pen set like Kate
43:47
Speaker 1: Spade right when she got into all that sort of stuff.
43:50
Speaker 2: So you can really see those are all licenses. Those
43:52
Speaker 2: are all licensed, yes, And that's exactly like making They
43:57
Speaker 2: weren't like making pens.
43:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were finding the team. Tell us about the
44:01
Speaker 1: creator path to product? Then, is this is this kind
44:03
Speaker 1: of what you're now? Is this the next step for you?
44:06
Speaker 1: Is this what you're teaching? Like, we want to know
44:08
Speaker 1: I'm going to take this program, like I want to
44:11
Speaker 1: learn ins and outs, But tell us, like, because that's
44:13
Speaker 1: that's something that you're you're going.
44:15
Speaker 2: To be launching soon, correct, I'm launching it and we
44:18
Speaker 2: are going to have a promo code for you guys.
44:20
Speaker 2: It's side Off for forty five and we are launching it.
44:23
Speaker 2: It's an educational course to teach the creator how to
44:28
Speaker 2: get to product through licensing, Basically, it's to teach you
44:32
Speaker 2: everything they already know, and literally what you're teaching them
44:35
Speaker 2: on your course is aggregating all of that information slightly
44:39
Speaker 2: differently for a brand book to then get either one
44:44
Speaker 2: a licensing agent that's able to go out and close
44:47
Speaker 2: deals for an apparel license, a hydration license, a luggage license,
44:52
Speaker 2: like to build the business. So basically it's to teach
44:57
Speaker 2: creators what they know, but it's what they can. You're
45:00
Speaker 2: reading the data that they already have and to teach
45:03
Speaker 2: them that, like, this isn't an overnight thing. This isn't
45:06
Speaker 2: an overnight strategy. This is something that happens on your
45:09
Speaker 2: career path as you grow that you're then able to
45:12
Speaker 2: aggregate and then put into like a brand book that
45:16
Speaker 2: you're able to come to me and I'm able to
45:18
Speaker 2: say yes, I see it, and you're ready and like,
45:21
Speaker 2: let's take it out to market. So for me, it's twofold. One,
45:25
Speaker 2: it's an educational course to be able to support the
45:30
Speaker 2: creators and learning about licensing and why I think that
45:33
Speaker 2: this is the right way for them to build businesses.
45:36
Speaker 2: And two it's almost like a lead gen for me
45:39
Speaker 2: because it's getting the creator with all of the information
45:42
Speaker 2: that I need for them to come to me and say, here,
45:45
Speaker 2: this is my brand book, like can we kill it?
45:47
Speaker 2: Like are we doing this?
45:49
Speaker 3: Do I have a shot?
45:50
Speaker 2: We have it?
45:51
Speaker 1: Like?
45:51
Speaker 2: And so I'm going to be accessible as part of
45:54
Speaker 2: it and everything. And for me, I love talking about
45:57
Speaker 2: this so much that I want to be able to
46:00
Speaker 2: be accessible to the creator, to be able to have
46:02
Speaker 2: these sorts of conversations. And don't get me wrong, like
46:05
Speaker 2: my day job is running my talent agency, and like
46:09
Speaker 2: we are growing and building. My agents are like the
46:11
Speaker 2: coolest and amazing. But what I'm seeing come to us
46:15
Speaker 2: our talent that want to be able to license as well.
46:18
Speaker 1: So cool interesting thing, even things like licensing agent like
46:22
Speaker 1: didn't even know, Like you know, obviously I'm in the end,
46:25
Speaker 1: but like I know, people will.
46:26
Speaker 3: Be like I didn't even know that was a job
46:27
Speaker 3: or thing or like that.
46:29
Speaker 1: You can just kind of you know, white label or
46:31
Speaker 1: put your mark and find people that are already building
46:34
Speaker 1: and growing these things, like they already have their specialties.
46:37
Speaker 2: They all live out there in the world. There's a
46:40
Speaker 2: lot of licensing agents that represent manufacturers, that represent retailers
46:45
Speaker 2: that are creating these creator programs for certain retailers. Walmart's
46:50
Speaker 2: doing this so well right now. I think they're having
46:52
Speaker 2: a real moment with the creator. They have crushed and
46:55
Speaker 2: they understand they understand the creator too. So there's all
47:00
Speaker 2: of these people out there that are also looking for
47:03
Speaker 2: the information that the creators have at there, and it's nowhere.
47:06
Speaker 1: It is nowhere. What's so funny, you guys listening? When
47:09
Speaker 1: I spoke When I first spoke to Jen about this,
47:11
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, like, you're in the course business,
47:12
Speaker 1: like me too. She's like, actually, I'm just like making
47:14
Speaker 1: this because I'm tired of answering the same question.
47:16
Speaker 3: A thousand times.
47:18
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, okay, but I love that because
47:21
Speaker 1: there's literally no information and even though we have tools
47:25
Speaker 1: like chat, chept and II and all that. I say
47:27
Speaker 1: it about my program too. You don't know what you
47:29
Speaker 1: don't know, you know what I mean? Like, So having
47:32
Speaker 1: someone like Jen who's put together these major capsule collections,
47:37
Speaker 1: who has been involved in some really crazy product licensing
47:41
Speaker 1: deals and is in it.
47:43
Speaker 3: She's like, eat, breathes and lives. I mean, what better
47:46
Speaker 3: way to learn?
47:46
Speaker 1: I think it's actually what you're doing with your program
47:49
Speaker 1: is like a gift. It's a true gift to people
47:52
Speaker 1: to learn.
47:53
Speaker 3: Because we know, how do you how do you know
47:55
Speaker 3: this stuff? Like, how do you know? How do you know?
47:57
Speaker 1: It's too crazy and you've seen it at such a
48:00
Speaker 1: high level. So I think I'm really excited for it.
48:03
Speaker 3: And we'll leave the limp below you guys, so that
48:05
Speaker 3: you guys can check out her program. But like I said,
48:08
Speaker 3: when I originally asked her.
48:09
Speaker 1: About it and like, let's talk courses, She's like, no,
48:12
Speaker 1: it's just that I'm tired of always.
48:13
Speaker 3: Being asked this.
48:15
Speaker 1: So those are the best type of course creators because
48:17
Speaker 1: they're not even like she already kills it in her
48:21
Speaker 1: talent management agency, her you know, licensing current deals this
48:25
Speaker 1: almost That's why I feel like it's a gift because
48:27
Speaker 1: you really don't have to even be doing this to
48:29
Speaker 1: share your knowledge and your expertise.
48:31
Speaker 3: So I think that's awesome. So I mean, I'm all things, Well, I.
48:34
Speaker 2: Know job and I just went to the licensing trade
48:37
Speaker 2: show in Vegas and what I recently I reached out
48:40
Speaker 2: to the CEO and I'm like, there is something missing
48:42
Speaker 2: here and that is creator brands that aren't being represented
48:45
Speaker 2: at the licensing trade show. And she said, you are
48:48
Speaker 2: so right, and I think that there's an opportunity here
48:51
Speaker 2: for education even with the traditional licensing teams too. So
48:55
Speaker 2: we are at a turning point with licensing. I think
48:58
Speaker 2: that is going to be on boat sides and everybody
49:01
Speaker 2: needs to learn about it. And the creator brands are
49:04
Speaker 2: the future legacy brands. That's what I believe. I believe,
49:07
Speaker 2: and it's not just mister Beast, and it's not just
49:09
Speaker 2: like these huge ones. I think that these creator brands,
49:13
Speaker 2: the Summer Fridays, all of these guys, these are the
49:16
Speaker 2: future legacy brands, and we want to be building those
49:19
Speaker 2: or at least using all the data that we have
49:22
Speaker 2: to build those, because why not? Why not?
49:24
Speaker 1: Truly, that's why people are starting online anyways. And I
49:28
Speaker 1: think this is a really exciting part of the creator economy.
49:31
Speaker 1: Like it's a part that we you know, we've learned
49:33
Speaker 1: a lot about affiliate marketing, We've learned a lot about
49:35
Speaker 1: brand deals, but this whole like start your own brand,
49:39
Speaker 1: license a product, you know, get into this world.
49:42
Speaker 3: It's something that has not been really spoken of so much.
49:45
Speaker 1: When you think where creators are going and when creators
49:49
Speaker 1: are ready to kind of get into this world, do
49:52
Speaker 1: you feel like there's any not pitfalls, but like things
49:56
Speaker 1: that creators should be mindful of, or whether they go
49:59
Speaker 1: through you or they work through your programmer, or they
50:01
Speaker 1: just kind of get into licensing together just before we
50:03
Speaker 1: wrap up.
50:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think, just like with bloggers at the
50:07
Speaker 2: very beginning, there's opportunistic people that show up and it's
50:11
Speaker 2: a money grab, which makes me insane. So there's a
50:14
Speaker 2: lot of these incubators that are unproven that you still
50:19
Speaker 2: have to pay a lot of money to or they
50:22
Speaker 2: keep like seventy percent of your IP, which to me
50:25
Speaker 2: is like a crime. Like I feel like if you
50:29
Speaker 2: have built your IP that unless you're bringing in a
50:32
Speaker 2: partner where you can choose that you're giving them with
50:35
Speaker 2: this amount of money, like unless there's an operating partner
50:38
Speaker 2: that you're bringing in, Like, these incubators shouldn't be taking
50:41
Speaker 2: seventy percent of your IP, which means that they could
50:44
Speaker 2: own seventy percent of your digital footprint that you've been
50:48
Speaker 2: working on for the last five years. Like it is
50:50
Speaker 2: so opportunistic and it makes me insane. So watch out
50:53
Speaker 2: for the incubators. I'm not saying they're all like that,
50:56
Speaker 2: just there's some of them that you just have to
50:58
Speaker 2: make sure that you continue the ownership of your IP.
51:02
Speaker 2: I would pay money to them in a retainer before
51:05
Speaker 2: I gave up any of my IP. And that's the
51:07
Speaker 2: best part about licensing is that you don't need to
51:09
Speaker 2: give up any of your IP. You retain one hundred
51:12
Speaker 2: percent of it.
51:13
Speaker 1: And so I don't think a lot of people would
51:16
Speaker 1: even have known that. I think people would think, well,
51:17
Speaker 1: I have to give equity, like or I have to
51:19
Speaker 1: give a piece of my IP. So you're saying, actually, no,
51:23
Speaker 1: from an ownership perspective, you own it.
51:26
Speaker 2: Tell us more, you own one hundred percent of your
51:28
Speaker 2: IP when you're licensing, and yeah, and they give you
51:32
Speaker 2: a royalty in exchange, a royalty on sales on net sales.
51:37
Speaker 2: So when you're licensing, and it's traditional licensing at this point,
51:41
Speaker 2: I'm licensing for Sincerely Jewels, for Happily Gray. There's a
51:45
Speaker 2: bunch of them that I'm handling licensing, just straight licensing
51:49
Speaker 2: for their brand. Like when you see product out in
51:51
Speaker 2: the world, this is product licensing that people receive royalties
51:55
Speaker 2: of net sales. So that is what you're getting, and
52:00
Speaker 2: that's what they're getting in exchange, is a percentage of
52:03
Speaker 2: sales and so your brand and your brand DNA, your
52:06
Speaker 2: IP has to be strong enough with a strong enough
52:09
Speaker 2: point of view for somebody to understand the DNA of
52:13
Speaker 2: the brand and then to put it on luggage, to
52:16
Speaker 2: put it on apparel, to design product soft home that
52:20
Speaker 2: would be represent representative of your brand. There has to
52:23
Speaker 2: be a very clear point of view. I think Jenny
52:26
Speaker 2: Sipletti and Kuchina Sipiletti does an amazing job of creating
52:30
Speaker 2: the most like it is very clear what her brand is.
52:33
Speaker 2: So if you create like very compelling DNA of a brand,
52:38
Speaker 2: then somebody is going to be like, wait, that would
52:40
Speaker 2: be amazing on stationary. You just need an agent to
52:43
Speaker 2: then take your brand book and pitch it. But you
52:46
Speaker 2: own one hundred percent of the IP. They're just licensing
52:49
Speaker 2: it for a certain amount of time. So don't give
52:52
Speaker 2: away your IP, Like, don't give that away unless somebody
52:55
Speaker 2: is coming in and is like, I'm going to give
52:56
Speaker 2: you a million dollars for twenty percent and you need
52:59
Speaker 2: it and you want to do that, Like, that's up
53:01
Speaker 2: to you, But don't let like a random incubator take
53:05
Speaker 2: your IP so you don't have to pay them a
53:07
Speaker 2: retainer to develop product.
53:09
Speaker 3: Please, oh my gosh, so good. It's final words. Please
53:13
Speaker 3: don't guys.
53:14
Speaker 1: I love that well, Jen, thank you so much. I
53:17
Speaker 1: don't want to take up any more of your time.
53:19
Speaker 1: This has been beyond helpful. I will leave links below
53:23
Speaker 1: to the creator's path to product. I'll also leave links
53:28
Speaker 1: to your website. Is there anywhere else that you want
53:30
Speaker 1: like our friends to be able to connect with you.
53:32
Speaker 2: I think the thinks are great. You can also put
53:35
Speaker 2: me up at jen pel fourteen. I probably will get
53:37
Speaker 2: back to you if I'm not dealing with my teenagers,
53:40
Speaker 2: but so hit me up and go to Hello gp Inc.
53:44
Speaker 2: Go to a Lemon HQ. We're running like some really
53:47
Speaker 2: fun focus groups with gen Z for brands and stuff.
53:52
Speaker 2: Like we're doing like a bunch of things I want
53:54
Speaker 2: to be.
53:55
Speaker 1: I'm a focus you know. That's that's the that's the
53:57
Speaker 1: business side of me. I love a good focus group.
53:59
Speaker 1: I love the good you know.
54:01
Speaker 3: I love that. That's amazing. Thank you Jen so much,
54:03
Speaker 3: and thank you all for listening in. Yeah.
54:06
Speaker 2: Thanks guys,