Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / When Grandkids Get Caught in High Conflict
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those that involve someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Hi everybody. We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California where we focus on training, consulting, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. In today's episode, we're going to talk about grandkids, what do you do in high conflict situations as a grandparent, but first, a couple of notes. Send your high conflict related questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast where you'll also find all the show notes and links. Speaker 1 (00:58): All right, so let's get right into this today, bill. And in this episode, like we said, we're going to talk about situations that grandparents find themselves in that they wish really wish they weren't in. And that's typically dealing with a high conflict situation involving their children, their sons-in-law, daughter-in-law, maybe extended family members. So it can be a really trying thing for grandparents because I think we all think of grandparent life as this wonderful, beautiful thing where we're going to have these grandkids and we can go to their baseball games and piano recitals and hockey and lacrosse and rugby and you name it, right? And it's just going to be wonderful and lovely and we're going to bake cookies together, but it can be a very, very different story as our listeners know. So here's a question that came from a listener. We are an incredibly difficult situation with a high conflict person. Speaker 1 (01:55): Her name is Kim, and of course on our podcast we always change names and sanitize things, so there's no identifying information. Kim is the mother of my five-year-old granddaughter, Stella. My son was never married to her, but we are three years into a legal case regarding parenting time and decision making for the child. Even before the grandchild was born, I had been confused and worried and fearful about patterns of behavior we were experiencing from her mother, crazy, blaming, lying, raging, twisting reality, all or nothing thinking and more. These behaviors only became evident after they'd been in relationship for a while. I'd never experienced someone like her. So it took all of us a long time to realize that something was really wrong. As I have said many times since then, you can't understand the impact of having someone like this in your life until you've experienced it firsthand. Speaker 1 (02:50): And I agree, bill. So here are some of the behaviors that this listener has listed, false accusations made by against us as grandparents of not caring for the child's needs, but there's never evidence false accusations of sexual abuse made against our son, the father of our granddaughter. Again, no evidence These allegations were investigated, which was a devastating six months as they did the work they needed to do and came back unfounded. Kim has written repeatedly that she was raised in a home of neglect and poverty and that she was sexually abused by her father from ages two to five, which she is now denying. In writing a custody evaluator found Kim to have a cluster B personality disorder as well as Munchausen syndrome by proxy factitious disorder. Kim disputed these findings with her fourth lawyer. Stella's behavior is heartbreaking due to her mom's behaviors. We believe Kim tells Stella that daddy did bad things to her and someone, although we don't know who called child welfare services to report this, and now they're investigating Kim, which has just increased her fury accusations and allegations. We anticipate this will ramp up as we get closer to trial. So Bill, the first question is how can these grandparents best help Stella when her mother continues to rage in her words and in her behaviors against Stella's father, it Speaker 2 (04:20): Really depends on whether the grandparents even have access to Stella. And in many cases like this, they have inconsistent access because as I've mentioned in the prior podcast, there's a lot of inconsistency. People that have say borderline personality disorder, which is one of the cluster B personality disorders that often fits rage. We see a lot of rage comes by surprise, and so they may be friendly for a while and you may have contact and then they're enraged and they're cutting you off. So let's assume that you have some contact with Stella. So the thing you want to do with your relationship with Stella is of course be very positive, friendly, affectionate, unless it offends the mother if they think you're too affectionate, but the girl's going to need affectionate, unconditional love, all of that. Also, I encourage people if they have a chance to teach kids what we call the four big skills for life, flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behavior, and checking ourselves. Speaker 2 (05:40): So if you have regular contact of some sort and the child throws something or screams or something like that and say, remember, we use our managed emotions here. And so the child's learning that managed emotions are an important thing. Flexible thinking is an important thing. Moderate behavior is that moderate behavior when you punched me in the knee, things like that. So those kind of messages in a matter of fact way may help soften some of what she's experiencing from her mother. But I do want to mention here, and I think most grandparents know this by now, that years ago the National Supreme Court made a decision that the parents really are the only people with rights to the children. This is the mother and father, Speaker 1 (06:41): And this is in the us Speaker 2 (06:42): In the United States. Yes, that's right. We get listeners from outside the United States, but basically in the United States that grandparents, aunts and uncles, all of that don't have any fundamental rights to children, that the parents are the ones that have those rights. Your relationship exists somewhat at the pleasure of the parents. So you really do need to try to work out the most positive way to be with the parents as possible. Now, sometimes I had many cases like this description, many grandparents in similar situations, and you want to have just a positive relationship. Don't try to give feedback, don't try to give insight. You're going to get stuck. Don't focus on the past. Focus on what's happening now, what you can do now. Focus on the future. The four, forget about it, as we call it, with high conflict people, don't try to give them insight. Don't focus on the past, don't open up emotions. Try to focus on thinking and doing. Don't say, how do you feel about that? They may feel terrible about that. Say, what do you think about that? And of course don't say, well, you have a high conflict personality, so cut it out. That just escalates them. So those are some thoughts in terms of how you can help Stella. Speaker 1 (08:10): And then the next question is how can we navigate the next years? We want Kim to be in Stella's life. She is her mom after all, and we want Stella. We believe that Stella should be able to love both her mom and dad. So I guess you've kind of addressed this somewhat in just focusing on what to do now, giving her unconditional love, role modeling, managed emotions, moderate behaviors, checking yourself, flexible thinking and not badmouthing mom. Speaker 2 (08:42): Exactly. That's very important. So navigating the next year. So you always have to be positive with Kim, and it's good that you believe and understand you need to support Stella's relationship with her. That's a dead end if you try to get her turn against her mother, that just blows up completely. If you're in court, then how to navigate that is a separate issue. But navigating your relationship, you're just going to be positive, you're going to be calm, you're going to be balanced and make the most of what you get. Realizing there's going to be ups and downs and praise Kim from time to time for successes. Say, oh, I thought that was so great, that thing you made for Ella or that meal that you made for us or whatever it is, is from time to time don't seem to be exaggerating, but be sincere. Only true things should you praise. Speaker 1 (09:43): Yeah, and I think it can have a little bit more of an impact than we realize because I think folks like this are typically used to people being adversarial back with them because it's just an adversarial relationship. So all of the things you're saying, bill, are about building a team together to help Stella succeed instead of just being oppositional and against each other. Speaker 2 (10:08): It is no benefit to being adversarial in these situations even though you're tempted. And by the way, don't tell their mother that she needs help. You don't want to be the one that says that that's going to blow up. She may never talk to you again if you say that Speaker 1 (10:24): Right? Thinking about best interest of the child, which we hear every day in family court, everybody's definition of best interest of the child is different. So I kind of like to think of it as we're just going to do the things we can to help Stella succeed. So question, do we need an expert for this trial? As our judge seems very reluctant to rule on this case, and he stated in court that he likes to leave a light footprint and would rather have lawyers and others work these things out and that simply will not happen. In this case, Speaker 2 (11:00): I think an expert is really needed in this kind of a case. Ideally you have a neutral expert who has interviewed everybody and can make recommendations, but it helps to have an expert who can explain in a situation like this, it's very important that you have structure. It's very important that you set limits. It's very important that you have accountability or consequences for if those limits are violated. So if there's a parenting schedule that comes out of the trial, you can bet that someone with this kind of roller coaster personalities not going to be able to follow that completely. And if they really go off the rails with it, you want to be able to go back to court and get a change in the parenting plan. So you want detailed court orders and get recommendations for that from an expert, also an expert saying this is a different, really different kind of case. Speaker 2 (12:04): And this is a real embedded pattern of behavior. Don't say personality disorder in family court. They really don't like hearing that. But say this is an embedded pattern of behavior that's existed for years and years and years and is very unlikely to change. Therefore we need strong court orders that protect the child, protect the father's relationship with the child. So the judges that want to have a light footprint in 90% of their cases, I can understand that, but 10% of their cases need stronger court orders, stronger court intervention. And that's often only going to come if an expert can explain it to the judge that there's an embedded pattern here that's not going to change. Speaker 1 (12:56): And one last question, and it kind of ties into really everything we've talked about here, is how to minimize the damage to this child as her cognition and awareness grow over her lifespan, I guess the next few years of her childhood. Speaker 2 (13:10): Well, the good news is as kids grow older, they start becoming more aware that they have a parent who's quite different from most people's parents. And so minimizing damage would be exposing her to positive experiences with yourselves as grandparents and with other kids and other parents who are reasonable and flexible and manage their emotions. So I think it's just supporting her and encouraging her. And when she has insights herself is saying, oh, you might be right if she says, my mom yells a lot, you can say, oh, maybe we will manage our emotions even if other people, you want to be careful, you're not seen as badmouthing mom. So just say, let's us manage our emotions. Okay, can we agree with each other? We'll do that with each other that way. You haven't said anything about mom, but Stella may get the message that managed emotions work better in the real world than yelling and screaming and throwing things. Speaker 1 (14:22): And it can be hard to do that we understand, but it really, it's just being disciplined and being the grownup and doing the right thing for that child. Speaker 2 (14:32): There's one more thing I want to add, and that is the relationship of dad with the child is huge. And really the idea of him teaching the four big skills, flexible thinking, managed emotion, moderate behavior and checking yourself will have a huge impact on her. And even if they just have 50 50 or he only has 40% of the parenting time, he can make good use of his parenting time that way. Speaker 1 (15:00): Good. Absolutely. So let's take a short break and we'll be right back. Listeners, if you're loving our podcast, we'd love it if you'd subscribe and leave a review, we'll be right back. Speaker 1 (15:18): Alright, welcome back. We have another question from a grandparent and it is the issue when a high conflict person stops contact with the grandchildren, in my situation, I had a four to six days per week contact from my grandson's individual birth. So I guess from the time they were born until being cut off. Although I can say that my daughter had been acting very angry for about eight months prior. So essentially there was a lot of contact for some time and then getting cut off entirely. I did not engage in angry bouts with her, though of course it is more detailed than that. I've listened to nine hours of your podcast and I've read, have read Biff and Ear, I will receive a copy of It's All Your Fault On Friday to read that Your alienation podcasts are directed as to between parents. Do you plan to do a podcast to address the issue of how to handle the situation when an adult child and parent cuts off a grandparent from contact with the grandchildren? So here we are, bill. We're in that podcast. Speaker 2 (16:25): Yeah. Well, the first thing I want to say is get support for yourself with other grandparents in similar situation because you would not believe how many grandparents are in this situation. And so we'll put a link in the broadcast notes about a group that does a lot of education for grandparents as well as professionals and parents. You're in a tough situation because your hands are tied. You don't necessarily have legal rights. In the worst case scenario, you could talk to a lawyer and see if there's any way you can get a court order that forces contact with you, but it's a long shot. The biggest thing is trying to work with your daughter. And one thing with people with such severe mood swings is they often come around and cycle through. So she may show up one day and say, here, you take care of her. Speaker 2 (17:25): She's just frustrating me about the child. So don't be surprised. There's a lot of future time here that you may have some opportunities to strengthen that relationship. Yeah, so the mood swings, you said very angry for about eight months. Who knows what that's about? I'm glad you didn't engage in angry bouts with her, et cetera. I think if you have opportunities to send notes or cards, holiday cards, birthday cards, and if you do that, keep copies of that. So someday you can show the grandchildren grandchild that you have done that. It's a very tough situation and that's why the biggest answer really is get support. Find other grandparents in similar situations. You would not believe how many people are in this situation. Just think about it, if there's about 10% of adults have a personality disorder, four and a half percent of the latest studies show have a cluster B personality disorder, which includes rage, like borderline narcissist, antisocial, and histrionic, all of which have emotion regulation problems. Speaker 2 (18:46): So that's a lot of people. And where do they show up? They show up in close personal relationships in family relationships with parents, children, et cetera. There's a lot of people like this. Let's say 5% have cluster B personalities and they're in families and they have relationships and they have kids. At some point, society's going to catch on that this is a pattern of behavior that needs stronger intervention. And what I've always believed is it takes a village to raise a child. You really need to have grandparents. Often grandparents are the most stable people in the child's life, and it's just horrendous that grandparents are so easily excluded by people with difficult personalities and it's going to hurt the kids, but be ready to do what you can when they show up at your door, which is quite possible over the years. So I guess hang in there, you're getting educated, but don't feel like there's something you overlook that's easy for you to do. There may be nothing you can do right now except get support and give support and be ready for when your grandchild is older. Speaker 1 (20:10): And it can be such a hard thing to do just waiting and waiting and knowing that the impact you could have on your grandchild's life, because I think we have to look at it at the impact on everyone as the grandparent. Of course, it's very painful and as you think of that grandchild or grandchildren, maybe they don't even know what they're missing and they will have to go through their life not getting to have that really special relationship with grandparents that they could have had otherwise. These can be some of the most special relationships. And you hear about people talking. Someone who, I just met someone actually from Africa recently whose mom passed away when he was just nine years old and his father had abandoned him, both of them I guess when he was younger, and I don't think he knows his father, but he was raised by his grandparents and he's just so happy and he's just come to the US for the first time, first time he's ever been out of his country. Speaker 1 (21:10): All he can think about is his grandparents back in Africa and how much he loves them and what an impact they've had on his life. He talks about them all the time. So if you're listening to this and you're a parent that's sort of withheld some relationship with grandparents, give it some thought might be a good thing to do. So thank you Bill for that. And listeners, we really hope you've gained some insights today and we thank you for listening and thank you for taking time to submit your questions and share your lives with so many because these are the same questions that many people have around the world and you've asked the question and we're trying to do our best to provide the answers. Speaker 1 (21:59): Next week we're going to talk about something a little bit different. We're going to shift over into workplace conflict, so you'll want to listen in the meantime, send your questions to us at podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. And we'd love it if you tell your friends, colleagues, and family about us, and we'd be grateful if you'd leave us a five star review so we can keep growing and helping more people around the world. Until next time, keep learning and practicing so you can be confident in your human interactions in high conflict situations. As you do, your life will become more peaceful. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.