Latest / This Is My Journey | The GLP-1 Podcast / S2 E5: From Childhood Obesity to Adult Care - A Doctor’s Personal & Professional Journey (with Dr Sachin Khunti)

Transcript

S2 E5: From Childhood Obesity to Adult Care - A Doctor’s Personal & Professional Journey (with Dr Sachin Khunti) · This Is My Journey | The GLP-1 Podcast

• 0:00
  Obesity remains one of the most misunderstood and oversimplified health conditions we talk about today. So for many people, their story doesn't begin in adulthood. It begins in childhood shaped by biology, environment and experiences that stay with them for life. So this has been the case for me for sure. So today's episode is all about reframing obesity for what it truly is, a chronic disease that deserves proper care, compassion and evidence-based treatment. And today's guest brings a rare and valuable perspective. So someone who treats obesity
• 0:29
  and has lived it personally. So let's roll the intro, and I'll introduce you to today's special guest. Welcome to This Is My Journey, the podcast where real people share real stories of transformation, resilience, and growth. I'm Mark, and after navigating my own path through major lifestyle change, I created this space to open up honest conversations around identity,
• 0:55
  mindset, and what it really takes to evolve. So along the way, we'll also hear from professionals, you know, from pharmacists to psychologists and fitness experts who help us make sense of the science and support behind these journeys. So whether you're just starting out deep in the process or you're finding your footing after big change, you are not alone. This is your place. This is my journey. Let's walk it together.
• 1:23
  Welcome back everyone to This Is My Journey and today I'm joined by Dr. Sachin Kunti, a doctor with a background in pharmacy medicine, specialist training in obesity care, someone who has also lived with obesity from childhood and adulthood. So Sachin brings perspective we don't often hear. So he understands obesity both as a clinician and as a patient. He has personal experience using GLP-1 medication,
• 1:45
  So has a deep understanding of the biology behind appetite and weight regain. And is currently in the process of setting up an evidence-based obesity clinic. So this conversation is about obesity as a disease, the realities of living with it, where healthcare falls short, and how we can do better for patients long-term. So Dr. Sashen, thank you so much for joining me today.
• 2:07
  Hi, Mark. Thanks so much for having me on today. Really looking forward to chatting, hopefully sharing a useful perspective. So, so excited since I discovered your Instagram not too long ago. And I think it's such an important perspective, I think, to share with people. And yeah, super excited to dive into everything we've got to talk about today. So yes, absolute pleasure to have you here and share your insight on such an important topic. So for anyone who maybe isn't familiar with your work,
• 2:34
  Maybe tell us a little bit about your background. What kind of led you just sort of into becoming so passionate about obesity treatments?
• 2:41
  Sure. So I'm a primary care doctor with a background in pharmacy and a special interest in obesity and weight management. My route into obesity medicine has been quite a gradual one, but recently quite intentional. Originally trained in pharmacy, but this gave me a strong grounding in pharmacology, metabolism, how medications interact with the body, all of which are highly relevant when you're thinking about appetite regulation and weight. Then went on to study medicine, which really broadened my understanding of chronic disease management, how conditions develop over time,
• 3:08
  how they interact, why long-term structured care is often needed rather than the short-term fixes. I guess working in primary care is where all of this came together. You see obesity across the whole life course. It's an impact on diabetes, cardiovascular disease, joint problems, mental health, multimorbidity. You also see the realities of people's lives, their work, stress, family, environment, and how those factors really shape health in a way guidelines alone don't exist.
• 3:33
  And I guess alongside my clinical work, I've been completing post-grad training in obesity and weight management. My diploma is finishing in the next month and then my master's as well within the next year. I guess my lived experience as well has definitely influenced my interest in this area. But the more I've learned, the clearer it's become that obesity needs a lot more than just structured evidence-based and a bit more compassion than is often in practice.
• 3:55
  experience there really makes me excited to have you on because yeah, there's so many insights I think that you can bring to this conversation. And, you know, I hear it every day just about, you know, how much people struggle with this chronic illness and sort of how that stemmed from, you know, childhood right through to now or whatever. So for you, why do conversations like this, conversations around obesity still matter so much? And why is this discussion particularly important right now?
• 4:24
  Well, obesity is still widely misunderstood because it's often reduced to behavior alone, when in reality it's a complex chronic medical condition. It really underpins many of the long-term conditions I already mentioned that we see every day. Things like the diabetes, cardiovascular disease, joint mental health conditions, and even certain cancers. Yet it's still commonly framed as a personal failure rather than a health issue.
• 4:44
  you know this feels like a really important moment because our understanding has moved on we now have far better insight into the biology of appetite weight regulation weight regain as well alongside emerging treatments that can support people in a way we simply didn't have before and that gives us a real opportunity to really shift the conversation away from blame and towards long-term evidence-based care it's a really super important conversation i think to have and from following you
• 5:11
  you know, hearing a lot of what you've talked about and things on, I suppose, social media, you know, you've spoken very openly about your own journey and, you know, I suppose with OECD, starting from childhood. And I suppose for me, I wanted to really ask, you know, how did those early experiences for you, you know, really shape your relationship with food and weight?
• 5:34
  You know, for me, obesity didn't start in adulthood. It started very early. And, you know, I've never actually really shared this completely openly with people before.
• 5:42
  But, you know, I have vivid memories from childhood where I'd come home from school, binge, raid the cupboards for chocolate snacks and still sit down for full dinner later on. And then, you know, when I moved into secondary school in the city center, food became even more accessible. It was completely normal for me to buy three chocolate bars at lunchtime from the school vending machine. Then after school, we'd often go to fried chicken shops, sweet shops nearby. And it just became part of the routine. I guess, you know, my parents didn't really know what was happening at the time.
• 6:09
  I didn't really think about it and it wasn't something that felt deliberate or out of control. It was just normal to me. Yeah. You know, I guess looking back, it's clear how that early appetite, food availability, routine and environment really shaped behavior. And it's not just about the weight. It affects your confidence, identity, how you see food and how your body from a very young age, you know, goes. Yeah. Yeah.
• 6:29
  As a child as well, you don't control the food that we have available or how it's marketed or active your day is structured and those early patterns often carry forward into adulthood, which is why so many people, you know, for them, obesity is a long story, not a short one. Mm-hmm.
• 6:43
  It resonates a lot with me because that's exactly how I sort of felt as a kid, you know, and, and, you know, having, I think the marketing does play a massive, massive role in, in that. And you know, how much that really affected my confidence and stuff is something I completely resonate there with what you're saying. So why is childhood obesity now such a critical issue?
• 7:10
  I suppose there is a lot of misunderstanding around that. So, you know, what is most misunderstood about that? So childhood obesity is a huge issue because it strongly predicts adult obesity and long term health outcomes. Yeah. Most recent data drawn from over a million children in England really shows the scale of the problem.
• 7:27
  Around about 10% of children are already living with obesity when they start school. By the time they leave primary school, that rises to over 22%. And outside of the pandemic years, these are some of the highest levels we've seen. What's also particularly concerning is the inequality within that data. These rates are more than double in the most deprived areas compared with the least deprived, and prevalence is higher in some ethnic minority groups.
• 7:51
  We also see that children from these groups are more likely to develop obesity-related conditions such as the type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, earlier in life.
• 7:59
  And the biggest misunderstanding when people talk about childhood obesity is blame, blaming children or parents. In reality, childhood obesity is driven by a complex combination of biology, deprivation, food environments, marketing and early life programming. Many families are doing their best in environments that make healthy choices incredibly difficult. There's some really stark sort of statistics there. And I think...
• 8:22
  Yeah, there's obviously a lot of different factors that do affect it. For me, I just always relate it back to my own personal experience. And, you know, as a child, I think, you know, I was always quite overweight. And, you know, there's multiple different reasons for that. I think, you know, anxiety probably was a big, massive factor. And, you know, what I know now around genetics and things like that, I think has...
• 8:43
  has definitely shown my, you know, hormones and stress and all have massive factors in my weight and stuff in terms of my own chronic obesity. So yeah, really, really interesting. You know, it's an area I haven't really covered yet in terms of the childhood and where kind of all this sort of stems from. I suppose in the UK, I'm interested to know from your experience what is being done in the UK to really tackle childhood obesity.
• 9:13
  the weight in children is, it is growing based on the statistics there that you have given. So yeah,
• 9:18
  And in the UK, there has been a shift towards a more preventative approach, although progress is still slower than it really needs to be. One of the key tools that is used is the National Child Measurement Program that helps track trends, identify where the support is most needed. More recently, there's been a stronger focus on prevention rather than blame, including tighter restrictions on junk food advertising online and also before 9 p.m. on TV. Also limits on price promotions for less healthy foods and plans to restrict high caffeine energy drinks for under 16s.
• 9:47
  And all these measures aim to reduce children's overall calorie intake. And I guess schools are also central to the strategy with expanded free school meals, improved school food standards and more investment in physical activity. The core message is that prevention matters, making healthy choices easier, supporting families and addressing inequality early rather than blaming individuals once obesity is already established.
• 10:10
  It sounds like there is a lot of things now being done, I think, than maybe what there was 10 years ago, 20 years ago. I think there's definitely a more of an optimistic, positive outlook in terms of how the future is going for childhood obesity and things. And obviously, you know, to maybe tie it into now your own personal journey, I suppose from a personal and a clinical perspective, you know, why is it so important to treat obesity as a chronic
• 10:40
  We hear that all the time. Yeah, no, definitely. It's and it's crucial because the body actively defends its weight, appetite, hunger, energy expenditure. They aren't just behavioral. They're biologically regulated by complex brain, gut and hormonal pathways. When someone loses weight, the body responds by increasing your hunger signals, reducing your satiety and lowering your energy expenditure, essentially trying to restore that previous weight.
• 11:04
  We know from metabolic studies that after weight loss, the resting energy expenditure falls more than expected for the new body size, something known as metabolic adaptation. At the same time, hormones like leptin decrease, hunger-promoting signals increase, making people feel hungrier and less satisfied after eating. Yeah.
• 11:21
  But the key thing is this isn't a lack of willpower. It's physiology. Treating obesity as a lifestyle choice ignores decades of evidence and leads to unrealistic expectations. We don't expect people with hypertension, asthma to make a few changes for a few months and be cured forever. We recognize those as chronic conditions requiring long-term management. And obesity should really be treated in the exact same way. Being online, you'll always hear...
• 11:44
  you know, maybe fitness people talking about, you know, eat less, move more, all that sort of stuff. But some of it I don't think is fully applicable for somebody that suffers with chronic obesity. I know I think that's why these conversations are so important. So to kind of get a little bit more into your personal journey and your personal side of things. So we know you have been on GLP-1 medications. You've recently just restarted again.
• 12:11
  What kind of led you to start GLP-1 medications? There were quite a few factors. I started documenting my journey when I began treatment in August last year and shared it publicly online all in December after I made a few videos and things. And, you know, I've had a lot of positive feedback, but also some negative comments as you do. And just to be clear to everyone listening, this is my personal experience. It's not medical advice. I'm sponsored by pharmaceutical companies. It was something I thought I had to do to, you know, change what was happening.
• 12:39
  And honestly, if I had to do it all again, both taking the medication and sharing the experience openly, I would. You know, I've lost weight multiple times in the past without medication through diet and exercise alone, but I always ended up regaining it. Each time it required more restriction, more mental effort, and the regain often felt almost inevitable. And I guess last year, a lot of things happened in my personal life. You know, family being unwell, there were weddings, holidays, drinking more because of, you know, family complaints.
• 13:06
  And over that period, my weight crept up to its highest point. You know, my BMI was around 28, waist circumference of 38.5 inches. And as a South Asian male, it carries a higher metabolic risk, placed me in the obese category. I had some bloods done as well, which showed raised cholesterol levels. And taking all that together, weighing up the risks and benefits, I decided to try Manjara for a private provider. Yeah.
• 13:27
  And for me, it was a considered informed decision rather than a quick fix and one that really reinforced how biologically driven appetite and weight regulation really can be. So there'll be so many people that are like really interested to hear your perspective on it, because especially from a doctor's point of view, because from what I have found personally, like, you know,
• 13:47
  doctors will give advice, but also at the same time, they haven't maybe lived that experience where you have. I think a lot of people will resonate with a lot of, you know, how life kind of throws things at you and you end up in a certain, I suppose, body maybe that you hadn't
• 14:10
  you know, everybody's human, everybody goes through these things. And I think it's, it's, it's really refreshing to hear your perspective on it all. So, you know, you know, looking forward to asking you a few more questions on this, if you don't mind. So sort of what did taking the medication then teach you, I suppose, about, you know, your appetite, hunger, and just, I suppose, weight regain, because that's something that's very prevalent in the news at the minute. So
• 14:37
  I was on it for around three months last year. I then actually stopped for two months. And now I've just restarted again. And what really stands out to me is just how powerful the appetite regulation is. Reduction in the food noise and the changes in hunger aren't simply about motivation or the willpower. They're driven by changes in the gut-brain signaling. And it genuinely reduces that constant drive to eat.
• 14:58
  When I stopped, my appetite returned within a week or so and weight regain began. And that wasn't failure. It was the body just doing exactly what it's biologically programmed to do, defending its previous weight. You know, over Christmas, that food noise was very real. I was walking into the staff room at work, constantly reaching for chocolates, sometimes 10 or 15 other good ones at a time. Apologies to my practice team, if any of them want.
• 15:20
  But, you know, I'm laughing about it now, but when I reflect on it, that's something I've always done in the past. Yeah. And that experience has really reinforced why obesity needs long-term management rather than a short, limited courses of treatment. Yeah. And looking back, I wasn't really ready to stop. I hadn't fully embedded sustainable lifestyle strategies yet.
• 15:37
  I feel I need to be on the treatment for a bit longer while building those habits. And for some people, long-term medication may be appropriate, and maybe even for me, but that isn't a, it's simply managing a chronic disease properly. And as you said, there's been a lot in the news recently, recent BMJ analysis showed that after stopping GLP-1 based treatments, many people regain weight steadily.
• 15:58
  with projections suggesting a return towards previous weight levels within around one and a half to two years. And then not just that, alongside this, the cardiometabolic markers such as the triglycerides can worsen again. So it's not just about the weight, it's about the long-term metabolic health. You know, it's interesting to hear you say all that. I think, you know, it's something that I've always been very...
• 16:20
  cautious of in terms of being on this journey and it's not something I've ever shied away with the you know the long-term aspect that I might have to be on this medication long-term because I do suffer with chronic obesity so it's reassuring I think to come from somebody like you and your profession you know saying that it's it's it is okay and it's not failure to potentially have to be on this longer term because I do always say to you like you know
• 16:44
  For example, like people on maybe high blood pressure medication, like, you know, if you have to manage your high blood pressure for the rest of your life, you know, of course you're going to be on that medication. So why is it not the same for somebody that's maybe taken, you know, a GLP-1 to manage their chronic obesity? To get into a little bit more, you know, how has restarting that treatment, because you just talked about that, how has that been maybe different this time around? I know you've only been on it maybe a few weeks, but have you noticed any differences?
• 17:12
  Yeah, so, you know, as I said, I've only been on it for under two weeks now. Restarting has definitely felt different. The first time I started, even at the lowest dose, I noticed that appetite suppression very quickly. But this time I've restarted at the low 2.5 milligrams. I've taken a couple of doses so far and I really haven't noticed the same effect. The food noise is actually still very much there. But it's been interesting clinically because I've still adjusted my diet and activity, but it highlights that responses aren't always identical when people stop and restart treatment. Mm-hmm.
• 17:40
  You know, I'm planning to increase the dose, but it really shows that we need more evidence around stopping and restarting. Most studies focus on starting or continuous use, but in the real world, people stop and restart for many reasons. And we need better data in those situations.
• 17:55
  Yeah, no, that's something I do. I hear about all the time as well, just being on social media regarding that stopping and starting. And I think it's a, I don't have any experience of because I've not really done it myself. I stopped briefly for a few weeks just to, because I find being on the highest dose of what I'm on, I find that it wasn't really working well for me.
• 18:14
  So just working alongside my healthcare provider just came off for a few weeks to see if that would help. And it did help. So, but I understand everybody's completely different. And, you know, I would always say, you know, obviously speak to whoever your medical professional is. If you're, if you're.
• 18:30
  looking at anything like that, but to get into a little bit more a near-lived experience of taking the GLP-1, you know, how has that, I suppose, changed the way you maybe talk to patients or sort of reshaped that support that you give patients?
• 18:46
  you know, it's actually, you know, changed it completely. It's really increased my empathy and realism towards it. I don't assume the lack of effort and I don't oversimplify solutions. I understand how persistent hunger and the food noise can be. And that doesn't mean clinicians without lived experience can't provide excellent care, but I just feel that lived experience does add that extra layer of understanding around the stigma, the frustration and why people disengage from services. Yeah.
• 19:10
  I think it's really, I suppose, beneficial for you and being able to do what you do every day. And I think that's the one thing, you know, I suppose from personal experience, you know, it's, you know, you can listen, you know, a doctor will tell you, you know, what is right, what is wrong, what is good for you, what is bad for you. But it's always good. And it's even more beneficial.
• 19:31
  nice to hear somebody that actually has experienced what you're going through. And, you know, I think that's, you know, it's great that you've experienced that to be able to offer that support to them. I think, you know, I hear all the time different misconceptions around, you know, these medications and things. So from your perspective as a doctor, you know, what are the biggest misconceptions around obesity and diabetes?
• 19:57
  these GLP-1 treatments? I guess one of the biggest misconceptions is probably that GLP-1s are a quick fix. They're a tool, not a cure, and they work best when they're part of a long-term structured obesity care rather than used in isolation. Another common misconception is that weight regain equals failure when in reality it's just expected physiology. The body is biologically programmed to defend that weight, and when treatment is stopped, appetite and metabolic pressures return. Yeah.
• 20:24
  I guess there's also a belief that medication replaces lifestyle change when in practice it often enables it by reducing the appetite, the food noise. These treatments can make healthier behaviors achievable rather than constantly feeling like an uphill struggle. I've seen people describe these medications as the easy route online and things, but that kind of narrative really fuels the stigma. Education is key to changing that perception. Yeah.
• 20:46
  And, you know, I think where care most often falls short as well is in being short term and fragmented. People often offer treatment without adequate follow ups, without the education, the planning, or what happens if medications are paused or stopped. You know, we don't stop blood pressure or cholesterol meds after a few months and expect control to persist. Yet we often do exactly that with obesity treatment. Until we approach obesity with that same seriousness and long term thinking, outcomes will continue to fall short.
• 21:12
  It'll be really nice for people listening to hear you say a lot of that because I think, you know, there are so many misconceptions and, you know, untruths out there that are circulating. And I think definitely one of the ones is that, you know, that it is failure because if it doesn't work or if you're, you know, you're coming off and you do regain or whatever, I think...
• 21:34
  You know, it's, as you say, it's your body naturally just going back to the way that it was programmed to be. So it's not a, it isn't failure. What is next for you as a doctor that's on this medication and researching this medication? What's next for you?
• 21:52
  Yeah, you know, a lot is actually happening over the next few months. My wife and I actually do our second child in about four weeks. Yeah, it's definitely going to test the sleep. On top of that, you know, my sister's getting married, one of our best friends is getting married. So, you know, it's going to be a busy period. But these are all really positive life events and they're things you want to enjoy.
• 22:11
  And I think that's important because obesity doesn't exist in isolation. It's shaped by real life, the stress, celebrations, work patterns, even sleep. And when routines break down and healthy options aren't always front of mind, making those consistent choices becomes harder. I've seen this across different stages of my training. But then, you know, alongside all of that professionally, I'm in the process of actually setting up my own obesity and weight management clinic.
• 22:33
  And I'm also completing my master's in weight management to further strengthen my expertise in this field. And, you know, a lot of what I've just described, the real world pressures, changing routines and the need for ongoing flexible support has really shaped how I'm thinking about the kind of service I really want to build. Yeah. Yeah.
• 22:50
  Yeah, no, I think, you know, you touched on something there. I think it's so important. And I think a lot of people think like every diet that maybe people have been on before or things, you know, maybe restricting what they're eating and whatnot. And I think it's, it's about,
• 23:06
  reframing your mind, I think, to live with the medication in a way that, you know, you can still have maybe some of them nice things. You'll just not maybe want as much of it or, you know, and I think, you know, it's about enjoying them life events like you have just said. I know it's super exciting that you're, you know, launching your own clinic as well. I think it's such an important field that, you know, definitely, I know for my own perspective here in Northern Ireland, you know, I think
• 23:33
  We need more of that here. And I think just across the UK in general, I think it's definitely it's a massive plus, I think, to have, you know, your expertise opening up something like that, because, yeah, I think it's it'll be such a valuable place for people that suffer with this condition. So, you know, maybe.
• 23:53
  I'm definitely interested to hear a little bit more around your plans for the clinic and things like that. So, you know, obviously you've mentioned there about obesity and stuff, you know, what are you hoping to address? You know, is there anything in particular, you know, in terms of that clinic?
• 24:08
  Yeah, a lot to be fair. So my main aim is to set up a clinic with a strong focus on the long-term evidence base and doctor-led care. What I really want to address is the gap between how obesity is often treated in theory and how people actually live their lives. Obesity can't be managed safely or effectively with just a one-off prescription and minimal follow-up, and it also can't be treated with a one-size-fits-all approach. People have different biology, different life pressures, different work patterns, and different barriers, and care needs to reflect that.
• 24:36
  Good obesity care is the whole package. That means understanding medical and metabolic risk, providing the education around the biology, offering behavioral lifestyle support and using medication when appropriate and having that structured follow up over time.
• 24:50
  I want people to feel guided and supported, not just given a prescription left to figure everything out on their own. And ultimately, it's about sustainability rather than the rapid weight loss, as we've discussed, and about treating obesity as the chronic disease. We're learning very quickly in this field as well. And as the evidence continues to evolve, we're moving towards a more precision medicine approach where we can actually better match the right treatment and the right dose to the right person to maximize benefit and minimize harm in real world care.
• 25:17
  Yeah, it's super, super exciting. And I think it's definitely like I said, something that is really needed in today's day and age, I think for sure. So yeah, all the best on that endeavor, because I'm sure that's that's going to be a lot of work involved in getting all that set up. And I'm sure there'll be a lot of.
• 25:37
  it'll bring a lot of benefit to a lot of people having that in place so yeah no that's that's amazing news before we finish off you know for anybody that is listening you know what message would you most want them to hear so you know obviously most people that are listening to this are going to be on a glp1 what what would your biggest bit of advice be for them as i've been saying obesity is not a personal failure okay
• 26:00
  It's a chronic disease influenced by your biology, environment, and life experience. Long-term support matters and needing help doesn't mean you failed. With the right care, compassion, and understanding, sustainable change is possible. And I say that not just as a doctor, but as someone who's lived this myself and seen many others go through it. The will to change is usually there, but what people often need is the right support at the right time. Progress tends to come from small, consistent steps rather than rapid or extreme changes, and it's important to recognize that.
• 26:28
  And it also really matters that people feel guided by the right, probably qualified professionals. GLP-1 medications are one option, but they're not the only option, and they're not right for everyone. Whatever route someone takes, preserving muscle through resistance exercise and staying physically active is crucial, because any form of weight loss can lead to muscle loss if that isn't addressed. And I guess for anyone who is listening on this journey, I genuinely wish you well. You're not alone in it. Yeah.
• 26:54
  No, I think that's a lot of people will appreciate that. And yeah, I think just to kind of finish on, you mentioned something just to really around stigma. And I think it's such an important message. You know, how do we start addressing that?
• 27:09
  Yeah, so stigma is very big, unfortunately, in obesity. And I think the first step is really changing the narrative. We need to move away from judgment and oversimplification and towards understanding obesity as a medical condition. We've seen more public figures like Oprah openly share their experiences recently. And I think that's actually really positive.
• 27:27
  It helps normalize these conversations and reduce the shame. What's been difficult to see, though, is the level of negativity and judgment that often follows. Comments like, just eat less, or it's the easy way out. There's still a huge amount of stigma around obesity and around these medications. I guess, you know, before judging anyone for using them, it's worth remembering that you don't know what that person is dealing with.
• 27:47
  You don't know their medical history, their mental health, their genetics, all the years they have been trying to and spending trying and struggling with this. And choosing to use medication often reflects how hard someone has been working, not a lack of effort. The more we educate, listen and lead with empathy, the more we can reduce the stigma. And when stigma reduces, the engagement improves, outcomes will improve and people will feel able to seek help earlier rather than later on.
• 28:13
  Yeah, no, I think that's such an important message to finish on. And yeah, all that's really left for me to say is thank you so much, Dr. Sasson for joining me for today's episode. I would encourage everybody, I will drop your social handles and everything all into the captions. So.
• 28:29
  you know anybody that does want to go and follow you i've encouraged people to go follow you because i think it's it's a really important perspective that you're sharing online something that you know i have been really interested in listening to and yeah really insightful conversation and yeah just really thankful for you sharing that with me and yeah
• 28:51
  Thank you, Mark, as well. You know, I really appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation. You know, these are exactly the discussions we need to be having more openly. And I really hope it's been helpful for people listening.