Latest / Mental Health Matters / Unpacking Co-dependency

Transcript

Unpacking Co-dependency · Mental Health Matters

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_04: Hello and welcome to Mental Health Matters with me, Dr.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_04: Audrey Tang.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_04: And me, Judith Crozier.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_04: And we have today joining us returning guest expert Hayley Wardle.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_04: She is CEO of LinkedIn Change in Bedfordshire, and this is a charity that raises awareness of child exploitation and supports children at risk of abuse.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_04: And our topic is codependency.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome back to the show, Hailey.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me again.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: I do love it.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we love having you.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_04: The things that you talk about are so important, even though they are quite unpalatable topics sometimes.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_04: Let's start with codependency in general, because it brings up a lot of different images, I think, to people, and people have different experiences of what codependency looks like.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_04: As a teacher, I would have said I've seen the codependency between a child and their parent, whereby the child always has to go home to sort mum out, and then they have a really fractured relationship, but then mum is always almost treats the child as their best friend and that kind of thing.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_04: And it's it's really hard because they both will then complain about each other, but they're still stuck in this cycle.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_04: So that's how I've sependency.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_04: What about yourself, Jude?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_04: Have you experienced it or yeah, similar really?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: I've I have seen that um in pupils and students that I've taught as well.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think it must be, you know, I don't know if it's common, but you know, definitely we've seen that.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I've experienced that in families that I not personally, but I've seen it in families that I put do personally know.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I I think that's the way that I understand it, and I don't know if it kind of manifests itself in different ways, but and that I think that's the thing where you come in here.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_04: So it just in your own broad experience of codependency, is is there anything any way you define it or any certain characteristics maybe?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a it's an interesting word.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um because you know it's a word that is thrown around quite flippantly.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm codependent, I this is codependency.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, you know, I think some people take it on almost as a personality trait.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm a codependent, therefore I need to do X, Y, Z.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas really it's about those behaviors like disordered behavior patterns, and I think we can see it in so many different dynamics, and it can be interpreted in so many different dynamics, some in a healthy way.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, uh a baby is codependent upon upon a parent, but it's about thinking where when does that codependency become a negative, distorted, disrupted behaviour?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_04: I think you've called something out that's so important here because it's we see this with all sorts of diagnoses and mental health.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_04: I've got ADHD, therefore I behave like.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_04: And actually it's not, it's a description, and that description helps people manage those tendencies, whatever they are.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's absolutely key about codependency.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_04: And in the healthy way, this just brings me back to the conversation we had uh last week with Medina Demibrad, she's a sex therapist.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_04: She talked about a sort of a codependency she sits in relationships with, say, somebody with ADHD who tells their partner, I've got too much to manage, you tell me what I'm wearing today, and that's their agreement, it's negotiated, people are all happy with it.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_04: Everyone else comes and looks at it and goes, Oh, it's very controlling, or is it and it's it's not, it's negotiated.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a management tool, really, isn't it?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's it but it is that it's that conversation, and that's that conversation piece I think that's really important in any relationship.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to be able to have that conversation.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: In a codependent relationship, you can't have that con you can't, you struggle, you can't have if you are the codependent, you struggle to have that relation, that conversation within that relationship.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's pulled out one of the key aspects of it.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_04: So when we're talking about these parent-child relationships that I've seen, what they're doing is they're having the conversations with me as the teacher, my mum does this, or at parents' evening, my child does this.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_04: But they're not having the conversation with each other.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_04: So it is it therefore a codependency behaviour because it's not negotiated.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_04: The troubles people are having aren't being discussed.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's the sort of clear difference, isn't it?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's that parentification piece.
• 4:43
  unknown: Yes.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that I think that's what that what makes the difference as well.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_04: No, really nice.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_04: So that brings us, I guess, into our first questions.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so really it can you explain what codependency is?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_04: How it manifests, I guess.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and yes, and what what might it look like?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think codependency can be different for different people and set of behaviours.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: So really I think the toy the the term was coined almost out of the origins of the Alcoholics Anonymous kind of um era, um when you know 12-step programs, all of those things, and and they looked at the relationship that um the person with the alcohol abuse and and their caretaker, so to speak, and and found that actually the codependency was there within that relationship, within that caretaker role, and then you know, as time's gone by it's kind of broadened.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: But it is that caretaker, it is that parentification, it is about relying on another person for your own satisfaction, your own needs, because you need to feel wanted, you need to feel needed, you need to feel that love.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it's almost that lack of self-identity, um, and you know, that can come out of um trauma, it's very common, uh, very common that if you've experienced some form of childhood trauma, then um, you know, you can develop those codependency behaviors as a way of coping and and and adapting to that trauma and and as you go through life within relationships.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_04: So it's it is sometimes it's that, and you see these in these old books.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um I remember studying The House of Bernard Albert when I was uh doing drama, and it was about the Spanish family, and the m matriarch has children, so the last one will stay at home and take care of her.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's voiced, it's it and that isn't it plays out in all kinds of struggles within the family, but it is that feeling of I need you to complete me and to make me seen and visible, and that's really quite a demand if it's a parent-child situation on that child.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, incredibly difficult, and and some of that trauma that you experience can sometimes be about that um child and parent relationship where those codependency behaviours have been um sort of born out of effectively.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: So things such as um I need you to do XYZ.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't do XYZ, I will feel a particular way.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um that oversharing, this you know, that child this is a child.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Why are you talking to your child about emotions, behaviours, um, your feelings?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I and that can place a huge impact on on how a child then develops and develops their own sense of self, their own emotions.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: So interesting.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it it is.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: And um how might it then play out in romantic relationships?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what what behaviours would you see in a codependent romantic relationship?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really difficult because you can't always see it.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it takes for other people.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think for I guess, you know, as always, sharing a a little bit about, you know, me for me, I didn't know what codependency was.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Once someone said it and I went, oh okay, I recognized these behaviours in myself, then then I started to see it, I could work on it, I could develop it, um, and and start to understand it, but it it takes a period of time, it's not something that comes off straight away.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you're in a very abusive relationship, then sometimes that codependency can develop quite quickly.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: If you're if you're not necessarily um then it can sometimes be a lot harder to see.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, I actively sought people that needed help, that needed support to m because that's how I felt.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: I needed I would get my own self-gratification.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: I would yeah, so I I would I would actively seek partners that had um issues, most of the time substance misuse issues, you know, going back to the Alcoholics Anonymous, because I felt that I needed to be the person that sorted them out, that fixed them, that that solved all the problems and and solved the wor the world.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: And but unfortunately that then led to very self-destructive relationships, behaviours, and and dealing within myself.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think there's a there's a healthy level of codependency within a relationship, um, but then there is a a side that actually if you are susceptible to being a codependent because of childhood experiences, then actually within a relationship you're almost going to actively s seek those relationships because when a relationship was good, it was strong, it was healthy, I didn't need to fix this person, I was bored.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, yeah.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because it wasn't meeting my own needs.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_04: And that's because the choice of partner had been based on the need, not how I don't know, well they sang or how you know fun they were or whatever.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: It was based upon that individual and how I could fix that individual.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_04: So this really reminds me of a client I worked with some time ago, where they had met their partner at a time where they were experiencing a lot of loss in their family, and they were a very different type of person at that point.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_04: They needed someone to take care of them.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_04: Over time, what had happened was, of course, they recovered, they'd processed all of those things, but now there was a struggle between the relationship dynamic because now that other person didn't know who they were anymore because they no longer needed to look after or take care, and they were invited along actually as a partner, not a caregiver, they didn't know how to behave.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, yeah.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_04: It's just so it's I guess it sort of brings me to the next question, which is do relationships start off codependent, or can they just become codependent, or do they change over time and something happens?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think it could be all of them.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I think that like I said before, you know, in a lot of codependent relationships, it doesn't start off as codependent because you're still adapting and learning each other and understanding each other's behaviors.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you have had those experiences earlier in life that have almost created those behaviours and how you work and how you seek that caretaker you know, um sort of pattern, then as the relationship develops, the codependency can grow and uh and become worse.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um I do know couples, you know, where there has been real codependency issues, but actually um they've worked through, they've come out the other side, they've recognized those behaviours, they've got to understand, they've got to, they've got to know each other.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, for me knowing that I have those codependent behaviours, having been through um a 12-step programme with codependency, all of those different things, I have to check myself and and and constantly do a hold on a minute, is this this behaviour?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Am I doing this because of this, or is this just something that's that's needed at the time?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's you know, it's needed.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we all need other people, you know.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's a part of life, it's when that uh those scales are tipped and it becomes unhealthy and unbalanced, and becomes your identity almost.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's so interesting.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_04: Do you mind?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_04: And this is quite a personal question, so please feel free to say no, but sharing one or two of those traits that you would recognise in yourself that just in case, because I think that would resonate with people.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think for me, you know, there's there's a different personality traits with codependency.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: For me, I'm definitely an enabler, right?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely an enabler, um, but also have that element of control.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, in in in one relationship, I enabled the substance misuse, however, because I controlled it, because I thought actually, if if I know what what he's doing, when he's doing it, uh, where he is, how he is, um, I am at least in the vicinity, I can control this situation.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if he then went out on a Friday night with his mates, well, my anxiety would be through the roof because I I'm not aware of what what he's doing, where he's going, what he's taking, what he's drinking, all of those different types of things, and that would cause real problems, which would then cause arguments that would you know.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a people pleaser, so it it's that kind of mixture, but there's also you know, things such as I could feel the energy shift because there was always a lot of I consider myself to be able to read energy quite quite easily because I'm uh you know very empathic, which again is another sign of being codependent.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I could start to feel the energy shift in the relationship.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, what I would then do is okay, I know he's at work, I'm gonna go around his house, I'm gonna scrub his house top to bottom, cleaning, sparkling, all of those things because I can sense that this cloud is is is broom where the dynamics are gonna change, the relationship's gonna change, there's gonna be an argument.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: When there is an argument, it would be full-on argument.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm gonna go and clean his house because that will please him.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: That that and then he he can't shout at me because I've just done something for him.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, there's other personality types such as the martyr.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm definitely not a martyr.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, other people might say differently, but you know, the there I don't think I never think that people fit into boxes and it into categories.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think that you can identify with with so many different um of the personality traits around it.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's so important because yes, there's sort of generally outlined enabler, and that's the person that sort of helps you carry on whatever it is you probably ought not to be doing.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but then you've linked that really nicely with the controller, and I see how that works.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_04: If you're in control, it's like the well, if I buy my children condoms and they're having sex in my house, they're having sex in my house.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_04: The fact that there might be 13, you know, that's where you suddenly think, oh, that's where that becomes a problem.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, you've got the pleaser, which is different to the enabler, because the pleaser is just you want them to be happy, you want people to be happy.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_04: It's not even the enabler of I will let you let you carry on doing the thing.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because that never made me happy.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: No, I didn't want him to be doing this.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: However, if I created this environment and then managed to be able to work with him to be able to stop, yes, yes.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and actually I'm enabling it, but I'm I'm controlling it because I'm trying to reduce it and create this environment where he where he's not doing it rather than going, this person needs to like work on themselves.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's in your job.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_04: It's my job.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_04: It's my issue.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's so true, isn't it?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and then the martyr is that that sort of um, oh well, you do it and then I'll be fine, I'll be okay, you know.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Don't worry about it's okay, it's okay.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Which is I always find that martyr is very much that parent mode.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: That that that is that parent mode of oh, I'd love you to do this, but don't worry, I'll just do it myself.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, and and you feel it the minute you stop, everyone's back's going through.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and but that's so interesting because I think people don't realize that this is a dysfunctional relationship, whether it's codependent or not, those four behaviors, any combination thereof, they're dysfunctional.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_04: They're not healthy for you, they're not healthy for the other person either, because the enabler then could push that person further into more problems.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_04: The controller can make another person lose all confidence in themselves and their choices and their ability to do anything.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_04: The pleaser can either can either generate more problems for themselves or actually end up not pleasing the person, but because you've just cleaned their house, they don't know how to say it.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_04: So you know, yeah, and that and that's what I mean.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: You do those behaviours because you think, well, actually, this is gonna make this a lot easier, this is gonna smooth down this response, this is you know, and and you do it, and you do it without even thinking, feeling, recognising any of those different types of things.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's it's so interesting how it propagates the dysfunction, and even though pleasing and enabling, they feel like really nice things to do, they're really not.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_04: Helly, we're keeping you, and we'll be back after a clip from the last time you were on the show.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_04: We have questions for you from our viewers because you were very kindly on our show before talking about exploitation, and that's generated a lot of conversation.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_04: So I was hoping to put the following to you today.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_04: This is the topic of the realities of sexual online and criminal exploitation.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_04: And one of the things that really came out from the show was about why victims of exploitation are so afraid to report their experiences.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_04: What's going on there?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think if we think about um exploitation as a whole to begin with, there's so many different elements of it.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: So for some of our young people, um, they could be being sexually exploited, they could be being criminally exploited, there could be elements of online and and even elements of financial exploitation that we're seeing a real increase in at the moment.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And young people um have we know young people, they they they like to keep everything um to themselves.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: There is a lot of fear, there's a lot of uh scaremongering, and I think the awareness around exploitation isn't there, therefore, young people maybe don't even know that they're being groomed and exploited in the first place.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_04: We are here with Hayley Wardle, and this is such a great conversation about what can only be termed as a dysfunctional way of interacting, but we are talking about codependency.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_04: And we've been talking about codependency and what it looks like in relationships.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I want to play it, well, pull that through it a little bit more.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_04: So, for a child who has been in a codependent relationship with a parent, so maybe the child has not realized the parent's been oversharing with them, you know, but they are having to save their parent all the time.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_04: That child feels that they can't go out because mum or dad might need them, or because, oh actually, mum or dad doesn't like me hanging around in that way.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_04: It it's begun to, I guess, dictate their lives without them realizing.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_04: Two questions how can they break the cycle?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_04: But what how could that play out in their own relationships?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_04: You know, is it like finding someone mum or dad will approve of or something like that?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's really hard for a child because you're still um forming your identity, you're forming yourself, you're forming your emotions.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, when you're in that relationship with your parents, mum, dad, whatever it might be, you are you are learning, you are growing, you are developing.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, um, you are learning, growing, developing based upon that social interaction that you have within that home and that family dynamic.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you there's other relationships, you know, out your school, all of the teachers, however, that's that primary relationship between a parent.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's really hard for a child or young person to understand and even see that dynamic, and probably until later on.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, that there is always the risk of if you're honest and you talk, which it you know it is the best way to do.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, everything, communicate is the best way to do everything.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you don't know what if if the parent is codependent and has created that codependent environment, then that child is not gonna feel able to be able to speak up if they even do recognize it.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that might cause arguments, so you know the difference might be you that there's two children.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one recognizes this, sees all of this, and does the rebel, stays out, doesn't care, does the arguments, you know, has the arguments with mum, dad, leaves the house, you know, as soon as they can get out of that house, they can get out of that house.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: There is the other child that actually um is the people person pleaser and has seen this dynamic between sibling and mum and actually feels really, really guilty that um that behaviour has taken place, therefore overcompensates, does everything, they then don't don't want to leave that dynamic, they can't manage that dynamic, and when it is time to then leave home, it's really difficult to to break that, and you might not even understand and and see that dependency upon um that parent in relationships that then those feelings, those emotions, all of that comes with you.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: It it it goes with you, and I think codependency always goes very much hand in hand with so many different things.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, um, you know, even in a for me in a work environment, grooming creates codependent, you know, the process of grooming is to create codependency, which is why the young people that are within that exploitation are codependent upon the perpetrator and the groomer because they've created that environment for them.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: So although they might not have had those experiences then, they've got those experiences now.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in terms of relationships, you don't you don't see you don't often see those behaviors, you don't recognize those behaviors and what you're doing within within yourself, and therefore that intrinsically somehow along the way creates that pathway for those codependent behaviors to continue within a relationship.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Then let's say you get into a relationship that potentially is um an abusive relationship, that then escalates that those codependency behaviors and traits even more so um because of the dynamics that are within that relationship.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_04: That's so interesting because I'm just thinking about somebody else that I know.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_04: I think they've created a codependency in their children out of love because it comes from I give my children everything because I never had anything, which means children go to public school, or everything anything happens, mum will pay for it and it will it will disappear.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_04: But I can see with the way you've described that, that how that child they are in a lovely, lovely life.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_04: Anything is is they can depend on mum.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_04: So if they look for that in a partner, somebody who can pay for everything, so they can end up becoming dependent on someone who could really abuse them.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the key thing about that relationship is yes, it's great to want to provide everything for your children because you've not you've you've not had it, or you just want to do that life, yeah, but you're not creating independence, and the whole point of unfortunately having a child is that you have to bring them up to be able to be independent from you.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, um, they have to be able to learn to stand on their own two feet.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost saying, I've got this bundle of s of joy that I absolutely love and I adore and and I want to keep it forever, but actually, you know you've got to let them go what go off and and live, and and they become over-reliant on you for absolutely everything.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, oh god, I've had a huge argument with my boyfriend.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna phone mum because that's mum's mum's my best friend.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Sort it out.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Mum's my best friend, dad's my best friend, yeah, best friend.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: That no, you're a parent.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's hard.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, really hard.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so if you're in that kind of relationship, then how easy is it to extract yourself from codependency?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, especially if there is a reward.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're the favourite child and you know you're aware of that, um, and so therefore you might receive rewards so it kind of favors you to stay in it.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm at a public school, I I can get my parents will pay for everything.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: Or the parents are just nicer to you to you rather than your siblings because they like you better.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think that's the problem.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think you can when you're a child.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's that thing of how do you stand up and say this and how do you realize it and how do you recognise it?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't know anything else apart from this, then then how do you kind of break away from it?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's creating your self-worth.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Your self-worth is then based upon mum provides everything for me.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: I get to go to public, I get to go to public school, I'm privileged.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: I if I want a new pair of trainers, it's alright, mum will buy me a new pair of trainers.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that is shaping your identity, your value, your your self-worth.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: In the role of it being a parent and a child, and the child is the caretaker, you then you then have the enormous sense of guilt that actually if I leave this situation, what is then gonna happen to mum or dad?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Or sometimes you're that child that's just wants wants to be seen, you want to be heard, and and therefore by being that caretaker, you're being seen, you're being heard in a role, yeah, in a way that's not healthy, yeah.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then you know, and again, that's why I think codependency is so linked with trauma as well, and being able to understand trauma, and you know, we could do a whole other section on trauma bonds, and but but yeah, so interesting, so nuanced and sounds like so complex, yeah, really.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're a child who has always learned to put others' needs first, um how do you start recognising your own needs and you know fulfilling your own needs?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think I didn't I think I got to 40 um when I started to recognize my own needs um and my own worth.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: But it took someone No, because I think people would say it along the way.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: People would say, but what about you?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want?
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: Think about yourself, take time for yourself, you know, all of those different types of things.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Haley, you busy yourself with absolutely everything and everyone, and don't ever think about yourself and your self-worth.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it took for someone to really sit, really sit me down and say, Hold on a minute, step back, look at this picture of life.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is codependent behaviour.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um understand what what codependency is, understand where the origins of your codependency come from, start to recognize that, and then then you can start to learn and develop those behaviours and techniques to compensate.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: I still overcompensate, so sometimes I will be like, I I probably am the martyr now, uh I am not doing this because I think that means that I am being codependent, right?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and I get really stuck in my way, no, no, no, no, no.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then you think, actually, this is just a s this is just a simple request.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: This is healthy, yeah.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I almost sometimes it over I overcompensate for those behaviours because I know those behaviors, as I've identified those behaviours, um, I know what comes out of it, and I know the things that I then do, so I overcompensate for it.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah I think that self-awareness is so important because I think that is about the only way you can break any form of patterns that you have.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_04: And what's really interesting, whilst you're talking, I'm just thinking of a friend of mine who has been caregiver, she's the sensible one.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_04: So three sisters, she's the sensible one.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_04: And I noticed because I'm quite a control freak, so if we go on holiday together, I'm often deciding where to go and everything.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_04: I will always ask her opinion, but she never wants to give me her opinion because she's happy to just oh it's okay, what makes everybody happy?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_04: And it's it's really difficult to kind of encourage no, it's okay, you you can choose that just because I might plan things, and it doesn't mean I'm not looking for you to say something, but I see that as a pattern of the whole relationship, and as much as she struggles with her sisters, she's still very dependent on being part of the group.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's that reward piece because that's what that's what you're looking for.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um you're looking for that reward, that perk, whatever that might be, and however you have to get to that reward, that perk.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it is about that wanting to be seen, that that that need to be seen, to be valued, to be heard.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um and how so how how do I manage to get to that point?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and again, especially in an abusive relationship, I think, you know, is you could go through a period of um uh understanding you're in a situation, um love bombing, um where you know, again I had it there was huge amounts of love bombing, then would disappear for three days.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that then again creates certain environments and and and and certain behaviours.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, I just wanted to be seen, I wanted to be valued, I wanted to be heard, um, and therefore would do all of these different things and and and behaviours and traits just to be seen, to be valued, and to be heard.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I guess we'd fall back onto the ones that that have worked with our parents, whether that was the pleaser or the enabler or the person who got everything right, you'll fall back into those old patterns because that's what got you seen last time you weren't seen.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_04: It's so it this is so fascinating.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um so you're staying with us, and we'll be back after a clip from the last time Haley was on the show.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: For us, it's about trying to teach young people what is healthy, what is unhealthy, what is control, what is independence, what is appropriate language, what is the what is unacceptable behaviour, and and where that line is.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: When someone is groomed, it then makes it even more difficult because the grooming process is about building trust in that young person in that in that first place.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_04: This is such an important conversation about the dysfunctional relationship that we call codependency.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um, Hayley, now giving and people pleasing can sometimes be equated with control.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_04: So there's that complexity there because you give, and if I'm nice to you, you're gonna hang around with me a bit more.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_04: It's very subtle.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_04: But giving is also really positive and really generous and really lovely.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_04: And so, how do you unpack some of these pleasing tendencies, generous tendencies to appreciate them for their own sake?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it is, you know, going back to that being really self-aware.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's breaking it down and thinking, what are the reasons as to why I am doing this?
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: What is the value in me doing this?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Is this just a nice gesture gesture?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's Christmas and I've bought a nice tin of biscuits to give to my next door neighbours, you know, that that's nice.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's nice, that's generous.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not expecting any outcome from it apart from for them to go, oh that that's kind, you know, it it's it's a kind thing.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, going back to that, I'm gonna go and clean this house top to toe, yeah.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: What value did I have out of that apart from knowing that I was maybe gonna get peace for one or two for one or two days?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there would not be a reason for him to then cause an argument, fall out with me, over use his substances, you know.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: I controlled that situation.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, but I had no value out of that.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: There were there there was there was nothing there for me, but yeah, I was giving and yet I I was pleasing.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's thinking about well, what is healthy, what is what is healthy, what is kind, what is a normal trait to have, and and what is the extreme version of that, because I'm not getting anything out of that apart from being a caretaker, apart from relying on another person for my own self-worth, for my own happiness.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_04: There's yeah, there's two really important points you make there.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_04: It's the extremity of the gift.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_04: So if you've bought your neighbour a car, that's a very different, that's very different to the box of chocolates, you really want something.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um but also it's when you buy your neighbour a box of chocolates at Christmas, you aren't expecting anything in return, but it is it's so free with that lack of expectation.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_04: But the cleaning somebody's house, you are expecting two days of peace.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you are expecting something.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, that's not healthy value, yeah, but it's almost in my mind, I haven't even thought about this.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I haven't in in my head, I haven't woke up on a Sunday morning knowing that uh he's on a shift and gone, oh, I'm gonna go and clean this house because I can sense the energy, I can do all of those things.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: I just got up in the morning and just went and done that and just thought, oh, right, I'm gonna go and do this because it's a really nice thing.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: Self-reflection then goes, that's why you that's why you did it.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: But you're in the this situation and circumstances, you just think you're being nice.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just you know, I'm just being nice and being kind, I'm doing a good thing.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_04: So I I think there's an also an element of if you then begin to resent it or begin to get angry that you didn't get what you were expecting, that's gotta be a trigger to saying, Oh, there's something I don't think anyone would ever resent.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_04: I gave my neighbour a box of chocolates, they didn't give me a box of chocolates, you know.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_04: Honestly, really don't think that's that's the issue.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_04: I've got very nice neighbours though, they they all oh I feel so guilty.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Christmas, oh god, I didn't I just didn't sort that one out.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_04: Oh god, and then I've got to get the nice chocolates.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_04: But I think there's there's so much depth to to the way that this manifests that self-awareness and actually in a safe space with therapy, those are about the only ways that you can actually get some of that, I think.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I I couldn't I couldn't see it until the time that I was away.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I was addicted to this person.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: I had my own addictions and and it was to this person, and then and then you think back on other relationships and I think yeah.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and and all of all of all of those ones that I had this uh feeling, you know, um this different type of relationship with that I thought was a great relationship, but uh all had the same behaviours, all had the same patterns, all had the same issues, concerns, but uh it to me to me it became my own form of add addiction, so to speak.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_04: It is addiction is actually I know you started with the word addiction, it becomes an addiction.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I because I think you know, for a lot of people with substance misuse, um codependency is a very common thread, you know, when I talk to them, codependency is a very common thread within their behaviours as as well.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um one I was I was listening to something once, one um man said that actually he found through research that people found it easier to break addictions to drugs or alcohol, but codependency was a lot harder to to break because it's based on a lifetime of behaviours, patterns, reward gratifications we could go on about chemicals in the brain or you know, trauma bonding, all of those different types of things, and and and so it is a form of addiction, but it but it's a it's about a a behaviour rather than a substance.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Or a person.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_04: So on that, how do you help somebody separate their own identity, their needs, their wants, their choices from the object of their affection, their the the person that they are codependent on?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's really thinking about the whys, the what's the where's.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: So what value am I getting out of this?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: What reward, um, self-reward, not in terms of that self-identity, but what what what what reward am I getting from this?
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: What is the benefit of of me doing this?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: How is this making me feel?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because yes, at times when you get that um codependent reward, you have that dopamine boost, but actually most of the time you're feeling not seen, you're feeling not heard, you you lack that self-worth, you lack that identity.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so why why do I feel this lack of self-worth and this lack of identity, even though I'm doing all of these behaviours, yes, and then you can start to start to break it down.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and you can and you can pick that apart.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can even go back to thinking where do these behaviours come from?
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, if you have experienced um abuse in your childhood, i it's quite easy to see where those behaviours have then kind of come from.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: If you haven't, then it's thinking about your childhood and thinking about okay, if I feel like this now with that lack of self-worth and identity, what other times in my life what's the timeline?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: What are the other times in my life when I have also always felt this or when did I start feeling this and start to be able to pick apart those behaviours to create that that bigger picture?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it is that is that self-worth, is that working on yourself and your own identity and giving yourself that time and breathing space?
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um for me, it was a big sheet of.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, yeah.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, mind map, this, this, this, this, this, and that, and then you can start to look at an identity.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and and it's and it's really simple, but you don't you don't think we don't have time, do we?
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_04: And I think the worst part is codependent tendencies can be exacerbated in friendships as well.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_04: That's what they call toxic relationships, but you've got those friends where you come away thinking, what did I feel?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've been sat here for an hour and you've not asked me once how I am.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_04: And it's it's just playing out of old patterns.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_04: And it I think it's so important to do a lot of that work so it doesn't just come out in ah, which is not healthy for everyone.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: So very true.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's huge.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: So related to everything you've just been saying, um, how can we help the person that the codependent person was helping?
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: How can we help them in a healthy way?
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's about managing.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's about saying, I've been doing these knowing, recognizing we've done this piece here, I recognise the behaviours that I'm doing to try and help this person, but actually am I enabling?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, am I doing this in the right way?
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because actually, this person here in their own right needs to work on themselves.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: You can't be the person that constantly is there to save them.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: You you can you can be there for someone, but then you can be going above and beyond when that person maybe does not want to, you know, do those changes.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got to it's a fine balance.
• 45:48
  unknown: Yeah.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's it's about trying to think about what can I do to help this person without destroying myself in that process.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: That makes a lot of sense.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not easy sometimes to stand back when you can see that somebody needs help and you want to be the one to help them, and but then they don't change and 30 years later they're still doing the same things and you're still trying to help.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean you th you think about that dynamic w again with a parent and say, you know, there's two there's two siblings, um, one sibling um i becomes an alcoholic and and the other sibling says actually, you know, tough love, all of those things.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um they've got to sort it out for themselves, but the parent then becomes the caretaker because they're a child and they cut off the other child, and and actually at what point are are they enabling rather than rather than trying to and so it is thinking about that control, that enabling, um, the the the pleasing, all of those different types of things and finding the right the right balance in saying you need you you possibly need help, you need support, I'm willing to go with you to set appointment.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: I phoned and make the appointment, I'll come with you, but you have to do the rest yourself.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_04: It does, and it's so hard to do, but it does yeah, and it's but it is important.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: This is so interesting.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: We don't think we can carry on talking about this for a long time.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: But um, where can we and and other people find out more about you and what you do?
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so to find about me, uh you can visit our website which is www.linktochange.org.uk, and you can find out all about everything that we do, or you can find me on LinkedIn, Hailey Wardle.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_04: Brilliant.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_04: Brilliant.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: We'll head over to Test the Trend.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: A good exercise to do, I think, when thinking about codependent behaviors, is to look at what's happening around you and think about those behaviors and how that makes it work.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: A really good idea is to put together a mind map.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: So mapping out all the factors in your life and thinking about what are the behaviors that you do, related to the other.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then really looking at looking at the behavior, it will really help you to identify those behaviors.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then be really, really aware, thinking about okay, if I'm doing these behaviors, actually, what can I do to change those behaviors?
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: What help and what support do I need?
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_04: This is always the favourite part of mine for any show that we've done because we reflect on the amazing things that our guests say and and what we take from today, and there is so much to take from today.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you, Haley.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_04: You've just been you've you've opened up this area of discussion in a way that I wasn't expecting.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_04: And one of the key things being I can see codependency as a dysfunction.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_04: And that was not what I was calling before.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_04: I was just happy, oh, it's called codependency.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_04: And you're right, it softens it.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_04: And it's not, it's not a soft behaviour at all.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think that um it's it's it's people use the term too flippantly.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: Really feel um, really use it flippantly, and they're not thinking about those behaviours and how much those behaviours are uh instilled in your practice and breaking behaviors are are really hard.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: It takes a lot of time, a lot of self-reflection, a lot of understanding to step back and and and develop.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: But there is there's so much material out there um on it, and it's really an interesting thing to look at, and you know, it sounds wrong to say it's one of my favorites.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: Codependency is one of my favourites, you know, having been there, having you know, everything that I do because it fits into everyone's life, it's something that every single person at some point can relate to, but it's interesting to see how it impacts different people and and how you work with it.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's so true.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I can relate to I can think of so many family members and friends and people from you know my past, where I can see this now, and I I never had a name for it.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: I never but I just knew that you know in certain situations that's not quite right, that feels wrong, it feels really uncomfortable, and I couldn't really uh put my finger on it because you know if it sometimes it's so subtle that if you say, Oh, I don't really like that, and then the person comes back at you, well you're you're weird.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's just normal, it's a normal relationship with my parent.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, when it's not, and you've kind of made it so clear.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's so hard to break that cycle with the parent and and to see to see that as well.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: So if you know your codependency has come from your parent in your childhood, you've seen it, you've recognised it, you've worked on it, you know.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: How do I break that?
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how do I do that without causing damage to that relationship?
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's nothing wrong with that relationship, but actually, as a child growing up, you you were everything, you were the caretaker, you were um everything, and so that's why I I just I find it I just find it so so interesting, and I I didn't know it, I didn't see it, and given worked in the field of you know sexual abuse, trauma, exploitation for so long, like I say, it took till I was 40, and someone went, Have a look at codependency.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, but I think you make such a good point here because on the one hand, you've got somebody saying, Oh, I speak to my mum all the time, and everyone goes, Oh, you've got a nice relationship with your mum.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_04: And they don't think any further that it's dysfunctional or anything like that.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_04: And similarly, with things like love bombing, it can come across, oh, I'm so caring, it's so nice.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_04: So it actually starts off or not starts off.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_04: It can be described and verbalised as something perfectly lovely and you know, relationship goals, and then it's not.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then it is um yeah, there's somebody I know, she I wouldn't say she's a friend, she's someone I worked with actually, and she describes her child as her rock, and she since they've been small, and that's always made me feel uncomfortable, but I can verbalise it, but now I can after today.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: But it's that difference, isn't it?
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: Of saying, My child is my rock, I rely on them for my emotional support exactly through life, they do everything for me, or my child is my rock because my child is amazing, it's amazing, you know, it it is amazing.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's that classic thing of saying, Um, you know, your child changes when you have a child, it does change you, it changes how you approach things and how you approach life.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's two very different and this one is performer, yeah.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_02: So they yes, they rely on their child for all the things you said, yeah, and that's why it's always resonated as really uncomfortable, but I couldn't put my finger on it, so um, but you're right, because there are subtleties still, and m a friend, you know, calls her children her rocks, but for the good reason, yeah, and so you know, and you think that that's really lovely.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing this for them because I want them to have a good life, or I'm doing this for them because of you know the over alliance and dependence, it's that line.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: It is always walking that line, yeah.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_04: And then when you just always it is a time because then it goes on to I'm doing this for them, but now I'm in debt because I've sent my child to public school.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_04: It becomes even more problematic.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_04: So it's it's so complex.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my goodness, we really should talk about this all day because I think it just happened when you're out of that.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much, Helena.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_04: Brilliant to have you on the show, and from all of us at Mental Health Matters, have a healthy week.