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What does anger know? · Life In Flow Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Life In Flow podcast.
0:03
SPEAKER_02: The three of us, Yulia, Polina, and Irina, are exploring what Life In Flow and Flow In Life is.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: Join us as we experiment, test our diverse hypotheses, and have fun in the process.
0:20
SPEAKER_02: Will we find an answer?
0:23
SPEAKER_02: This isn't just an intellectual discussion.
0:26
SPEAKER_02: We're co-creating a shared field beyond words.
0:30
SPEAKER_02: We're attuning to what emerges moment by moment so that
0:35
SPEAKER_02: the conversation itself becomes a group flow experience.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: And we invite you to become an active participant in this experiment.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: There will be pauses and moments of silence.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: We leave them on purpose because this is where magic happens.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: Go beyond the intellectual information.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: Listen with your whole body.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: And notice how your somatic experience shifts in the process.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: Share with us what reveals itself in the space where mind, body and energy flow together.
1:27
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Life In Flow podcast.
1:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm Paulina,
1:32
SPEAKER_02: I am your facilitator today,
1:34
SPEAKER_02: and I'm joined as always by my two wonderful co-hosts, Irina and Yulia.
1:41
SPEAKER_02: Hello.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: And today, our topic is, what does anger know?
1:54
SPEAKER_02: And to give you a little bit of a background,
1:57
SPEAKER_02: I have been wondering about certain words, terms, expressions that we use.
2:08
SPEAKER_02: And I've been wondering about exactly what we're describing
2:13
SPEAKER_02: and I've been taking things back to almost a rudimentary level and asking questions
2:18
SPEAKER_02: as if I am a complete beginner.
2:23
SPEAKER_02: And I have been exploring what the word anger means for me.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: I've been asking questions of other,
2:33
SPEAKER_02: primarily women,
2:35
SPEAKER_02: in terms of what their anger means to them and how do they experience it.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: And yeah,
2:41
SPEAKER_02: I just wanted to do a bit of an exploration in our container today
2:47
SPEAKER_02: and see what comes up when we are Talking about anger and see
2:53
SPEAKER_02: if we can find out what anger knows.
2:59
SPEAKER_02: So before we say anything about anger,
3:02
SPEAKER_02: I want to ask that we notice what that word brings up for you.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: Whether it's a sensation or an image or a movement, a memory, a thought.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: Perhaps nothing.
3:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:24
SPEAKER_02: Will you share what comes up for you when I say anger?
3:29
SPEAKER_02: What arrives?
3:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm saying to myself,
3:55
SPEAKER_00: And that's a mix of a lot of heat,
4:02
SPEAKER_00: maybe some venom of a snake,
4:06
SPEAKER_00: and then anger,
4:08
SPEAKER_00: and then it turns this anger,
4:12
SPEAKER_00: it turns to me into something like
4:17
SPEAKER_00: steel of a gun, like it's flat, it's heavy.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: It's deadly.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: It's not alive.
4:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
4:42
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Yulia.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: Really?
4:58
SPEAKER_01: For me, what I feel is like
5:06
SPEAKER_01: something is activating in my belly and
5:11
SPEAKER_01: by activating it means it's like the engine starts that,
5:21
SPEAKER_01: that Propels the movement forward into like very rush,
5:28
SPEAKER_01: very aggressive movement forward.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: And the punching gesture,
5:36
SPEAKER_01: it's not just the gesture, but it's more like the impulse, the desire to punch.
5:44
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
5:44
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you.
5:48
SPEAKER_02: And for me right now,
5:50
SPEAKER_02: anger brings up a churning sensation in my...
5:56
SPEAKER_02: somewhere between the solar plexus and the... the belly.
6:05
SPEAKER_02: It's like a churning, heavy...
6:19
SPEAKER_02: Maybe also a bit like steely, you know, like a steel sort of metal
6:29
SPEAKER_02: sensation.
6:30
SPEAKER_02: And a locking down mechanism.
6:40
SPEAKER_02: Like a containment and locking down.
6:42
SPEAKER_02: I will not reveal myself until I figure this out.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can feel like a contraction in my stomach that's also about containment
6:59
SPEAKER_00: and you know like this armoring that happens like the shoulders get slightly lifted
7:04
SPEAKER_00: and go forward so there's like this protection happens here
7:10
SPEAKER_00: and there is also contraction in the chest which kind of like catches your breath.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: And it's like a beast inside that is better not be let out.
7:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:32
SPEAKER_02: As you say that, I also have a sensation of like less breath available in the system.
7:41
SPEAKER_02: So like the engine shuts down, the walls go up, the breath retracts.
7:46
SPEAKER_02: There's a retracting mechanism.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:56
SPEAKER_02: Anything else, Ir, that comes up for you that you want to share?
8:01
SPEAKER_02: I'm not containing.
8:02
SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
8:04
SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
8:15
SPEAKER_00: So how do you let it out?
8:18
SPEAKER_00: The punting?
8:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:23
SPEAKER_02: Okay, before we go into more questions,
8:29
SPEAKER_02: I want to ask what word in your original language comes closest to what just arose
8:39
SPEAKER_02: in your system?
8:42
SPEAKER_00: What do you mean in your original language?
8:44
SPEAKER_00: Russian.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: Zloist.
8:47
SPEAKER_02: Zloist, okay.
8:49
SPEAKER_02: And for you, Yul?
8:55
SPEAKER_00: I have to think a little bit.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure that I can.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: I just realized that for me,
9:03
SPEAKER_00: it's actually very difficult to translate
9:09
SPEAKER_00: to find a word matching
9:11
SPEAKER_00: the exact sensations and experience that I have.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: And I discovered it during the kindness exploration, which we also talked about kindness here.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: And that is why Am I describing whatever I was describing?
9:29
SPEAKER_00: Can I call it by the word anger?
9:31
SPEAKER_00: Can I call it by the words lost?
9:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: I cannot answer this question, I think.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: I cannot, yeah.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: I think for me the word is...
10:01
SPEAKER_02: Gnev, or like, бесed,
10:05
SPEAKER_02: but like a different word,
10:07
SPEAKER_02: because бесed is an outward type of,
10:10
SPEAKER_02: so I don't know what the inward locking down Russian word would be for this.
10:27
SPEAKER_02: Also,
10:33
SPEAKER_02: Zloist, does that have a moral connotation to it?
10:40
SPEAKER_00: It's one of the meanings,
10:45
SPEAKER_00: the one that has a moral connotation and kind of the...
10:49
SPEAKER_01: What moral connotation?
10:51
SPEAKER_00: Zlo.
10:57
SPEAKER_01: Never thought of it.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: But Zlo or Zloist?
11:03
SPEAKER_01: No, yes, I see it, but I've never connected Zloist to Zlo.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: And let's translate to our
11:15
SPEAKER_01: listeners that Zlo in Russia means evil.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: Apparently these are two words of the same root.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: No, I personally have never made this correct.
11:33
SPEAKER_02: Evil or wicked, it could be another translation.
11:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but it spans like in the definition,
11:44
SPEAKER_02: angry, cross, hostile, mean, wicked, but there is a moral badness in it.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: So I'm wondering...
11:54
SPEAKER_02: Is that the correct,
11:55
SPEAKER_02: is that the accurate word you would use to describe what you were feeling
11:59
SPEAKER_02: when we were exploring anger in your system?
12:03
SPEAKER_01: I personally don't feel any moral connotation in my anger and in
12:10
SPEAKER_01: the words lost either, so sorry.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm immoral.
12:17
SPEAKER_02: Does it change anything when you think about the description with
12:24
SPEAKER_02: an English word versus a Russian word?
12:26
SPEAKER_02: Just curious.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: Not at this moment, not in the context so far.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: I think for me,
12:43
SPEAKER_00: the word I occasionally use to Convey this,
12:49
SPEAKER_00: you know, the thing that is happening with me that we have been sharing as anger.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: In English, I would say, oh, I'm so mad right now.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: This is how I would usually communicate it to my kids.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: And then in Russia, Polina, it's...
13:11
SPEAKER_00: What you mentioned, besyć, but I was saying it like, oh, it's just tak beshuć.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: And I think
13:21
SPEAKER_00: the etymology is from beast, but
13:28
SPEAKER_00: bes, it's like a creature that is also...
13:35
SPEAKER_00: From the religious evil scene.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: Little devil.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Little devil.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Someone who lives in...
13:54
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, on the other side of the paradise.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: In the hell.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: In hell, yeah.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: He lives in hell, so...
14:02
SPEAKER_00: I guess the word then in Russian,
14:04
SPEAKER_00: the one that I would be using often,
14:09
SPEAKER_00: because I would not be saying I am angry or I feel angry
14:14
SPEAKER_00: to express what I'm feeling.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: I would be saying like,
14:18
SPEAKER_00: which would mean that the demons inside of me are
14:26
SPEAKER_00: waking or something like that.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: Or I'm being a demon...
14:32
SPEAKER_02: Would you actually feel those aspects as you would if you were to say, like,
14:38
SPEAKER_02: would you actually does that bring up that imagery for you or is it unconscious?
14:46
SPEAKER_00: It's unconscious.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: It's now that I'm reflecting on it.
14:51
SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
15:00
SPEAKER_02: I think I would say maybe like, yes, your juice, you know, which is like,
15:11
SPEAKER_02: But that's not like an actual experience of the energy that I'm feeling internally.
15:15
SPEAKER_02: Right.
15:15
SPEAKER_02: That's me do like what I'm doing with it is I'm like I'm getting upset about it,
15:19
SPEAKER_02: like almost like mad.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: Right.
15:21
SPEAKER_02: What you were saying in English.
15:22
SPEAKER_02: So I'm bringing this up because that's part of the exploration that I've been sort
15:28
SPEAKER_02: of in the midst of.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: Anger doesn't quite capture the nuance of what I feel when I feel that energy.
15:37
SPEAKER_02: And.
15:43
SPEAKER_02: When I had to think about the Russian translation,
15:45
SPEAKER_02: I was also having a hard time because I started seeing all these variations in
15:52
SPEAKER_02: the different words in Russian that actually have a moral or some kind
15:56
SPEAKER_02: of other connotation to it.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: And I was wondering how that affects us when we relate to this energy.
16:06
SPEAKER_02: And also in hearing how both of you have described what comes up for you,
16:10
SPEAKER_02: what words you use,
16:11
SPEAKER_02: you know, like the question comes up for me, are we naming the same experience?
16:17
SPEAKER_02: Are we having the same experience?
16:19
SPEAKER_02: Or what are we talking about?
16:28
SPEAKER_01: We are talking about subjective experiences.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: They are never the same.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: When we share
16:45
SPEAKER_01: like connection to the same type of energy,
16:51
SPEAKER_01: but when we share the same context,
16:56
SPEAKER_01: like when we're in the shared field, probably,
17:03
SPEAKER_01: But again,
17:05
SPEAKER_01: even connecting to the same type of energy,
17:08
SPEAKER_01: the experience of,
17:10
SPEAKER_01: like internal experience of how,
17:12
SPEAKER_01: what this energy does to each of us will be subjective.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: So it will be different always.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so even to, I mean,
17:29
SPEAKER_00: to assume that we are,
17:32
SPEAKER_00: Experiencing anger,
17:37
SPEAKER_00: I think probably would be wrong because maybe for someone it's more like rage
17:44
SPEAKER_00: or whatever,
17:45
SPEAKER_00: like different gradations of that experience or different energetic expressions.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm remembering a conversation that I had with my sister recently
18:00
SPEAKER_00: and we were Sharing with each other some experiences with some
18:05
SPEAKER_00: of our family members,
18:09
SPEAKER_00: men family members,
18:12
SPEAKER_00: and how sometimes we have such a difficult time with it and there can be conflict
18:21
SPEAKER_00: and when the conflict is there,
18:24
SPEAKER_00: but for both of us,
18:26
SPEAKER_00: The experience that we were describing,
18:28
SPEAKER_00: that we were containing our response or the feeling that was inside,
18:33
SPEAKER_00: because then we would have exploded and there would be casualties
18:39
SPEAKER_00: and there would be really serious casualties because something that was brewing
18:47
SPEAKER_00: in response to those situations was seriously Angry?
18:53
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, angry.
18:54
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like, what would you call that?
19:03
SPEAKER_02: Well, what is the mechanism of knowing what it is that you're feeling when it comes
19:06
SPEAKER_02: to this blanket term, anger?
19:11
SPEAKER_02: Do you have a mechanism?
19:13
SPEAKER_02: And if so, what is your mechanism to understand what your experience is?
19:20
SPEAKER_00: I guess for us it was enough that we understood that we're on the same side,
19:26
SPEAKER_00: that we're sharing this kind of energy in response to a similar situation,
19:35
SPEAKER_00: and that in both of us there is some serious
19:44
SPEAKER_00: explosive power
19:51
SPEAKER_02: And that was enough.
19:54
SPEAKER_02: So naming it and feeling witnessed and partnered in this energy was enough to what?
20:05
SPEAKER_00: No, that was enough to understand what each of us feels without naming it anger
20:14
SPEAKER_00: and identifying somehow that we're on to something that we share.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: So the thing that we feel, we could call it anger or rage or something.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: But in that case, we didn't have to name it.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: We just knew that we share that thing.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: And how did you do with it?
20:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
20:40
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
20:41
SPEAKER_02: But what did you do with it?
20:42
SPEAKER_02: What happened to it after you had that sensation of this shared experience?
20:50
SPEAKER_02: And then what?
20:54
SPEAKER_00: It just felt good.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it also felt,
20:57
SPEAKER_00: because we had not shared it with each other before in describing it like that.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: And so there was also, okay, so we, I mean,
21:13
SPEAKER_00: we definitely carry something in our lineage that supports this fear of,
21:23
SPEAKER_00: A very serious explosion and lots of casualties happening
21:28
SPEAKER_00: because we feel like there's something really big.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: That was also interesting.
21:38
SPEAKER_02: And when you say that this is something that's like in the lineage, what makes you say that?
21:47
SPEAKER_02: What have you experienced in terms of this
21:53
SPEAKER_02: From the people in your life,
21:55
SPEAKER_02: like the fact that it's explosive,
21:58
SPEAKER_02: is this how you've experienced the people in your life?
22:05
SPEAKER_00: No, it's just a feeling.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: So I think what was happening,
22:10
SPEAKER_00: so I was like, okay,
22:11
SPEAKER_00: whatever I know about my sister or however I perceive her,
22:17
SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of was connecting to myself,
22:20
SPEAKER_00: but it also something in that experience in the way that both
22:24
SPEAKER_00: of us were describing it was also connecting to other women in our family who,
22:30
SPEAKER_00: you know, have never really been, have never truly exploded.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: But it made me think that they were carrying the same explosives inside.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: The same kind of.
22:48
SPEAKER_02: Have you ever truly exploded when feeling this kind of anger?
22:51
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: And has it been?
22:56
SPEAKER_00: It was physical.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: It was really bad.
22:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:00
SPEAKER_02: Physical, you mean you had to fight?
23:02
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
23:03
SPEAKER_02: Physically fight someone off?
23:06
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: Not once, quite a few times.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: So if I were to ask the question of what happens between that first flicker
23:30
SPEAKER_02: of whatever we're calling anger and what people finally get to see,
23:36
SPEAKER_02: what would you say?
23:37
SPEAKER_00: You mean in the moments of expression?
23:46
SPEAKER_02: In the moments between you're starting to feeling this whatever is brewing and
23:51
SPEAKER_02: then like what people get to see.
23:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: What happens in that space?
24:03
SPEAKER_00: For me,
24:06
SPEAKER_00: I see it as this spiraling force that does not really
24:14
SPEAKER_00: lend itself to control
24:16
SPEAKER_02: very well.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: And once at a certain stage, if it's allowed to grow, then it just decimates everything.
24:32
SPEAKER_02: And what does that look like for the people facing you?
24:40
SPEAKER_00: That it's something that we discussed before when some
24:46
SPEAKER_00: of our parts take full control of ourselves.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: So it's not the cells that are there, but the parts.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: And so you don't really have leverage at that point.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: It's just like you lose
25:04
SPEAKER_00: The agency there.
25:09
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
25:10
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
25:10
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: Ir, what about you?
25:13
SPEAKER_02: What happens between,
25:15
SPEAKER_02: let's say,
25:15
SPEAKER_02: the first signals,
25:16
SPEAKER_02: whatever they are for you,
25:18
SPEAKER_02: and what we're calling anger and what people finally get to see?
25:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: Thinking about boiling water in the closed container.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: Holy water?
25:33
SPEAKER_01: Boiling water.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: Boiling water.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: So it's just, it's heating, heating, heating, heating, and when it's boiling, then it erupts.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: It's just, you know, like the engine...
25:57
SPEAKER_01: When it just starts, it requires some time to get momentum and to get into the movement.
26:13
SPEAKER_02: Is there something you usually tend to do while this momentum is building?
26:20
SPEAKER_02: Or is this something that goes from zero to a hundred in terms of your consciousness?
26:25
SPEAKER_02: Like in terms of your awareness?
26:27
SPEAKER_01: No, it's just usually like the situations that come
26:36
SPEAKER_01: Come to my mind at this moment.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: It's just like it gets developed,
26:43
SPEAKER_01: like evolving inside of me as the situation that triggers this evolves outside
26:50
SPEAKER_01: of me.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: So like it's building up,
26:52
SPEAKER_01: it's building up,
26:53
SPEAKER_01: it's building up because the situation,
26:59
SPEAKER_01: the context keeps triggering, like keeps hitting the water.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: So if it's just like one impulse,
27:10
SPEAKER_01: then okay,
27:11
SPEAKER_01: it's just an impulse and it doesn't get any evolution,
27:18
SPEAKER_01: but it keeps adding, keeps adding, keeps adding.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: So in the end, okay, the water keeps boiling, keeps boiling, keeps heating and in the end.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
27:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so for me, I think there's like a multi-mechanism.
27:45
SPEAKER_02: As I said, there isn't a containment mechanism that gets turned on pretty quickly.
27:52
SPEAKER_02: And if the context keeps building the energy that feeds,
28:01
SPEAKER_02: even though it's contained,
28:02
SPEAKER_02: but if it's feeding that containment,
28:06
SPEAKER_02: Then I start feeling the energy rise up into my chest and that's
28:11
SPEAKER_02: when I pretty quick,
28:16
SPEAKER_02: I think for me it's a pretty quick,
28:18
SPEAKER_02: like once it's in the chest then it becomes an outward mechanism.
28:23
SPEAKER_02: So that means containment is no longer doing its job.
28:26
SPEAKER_02: It's now an outward expression,
28:31
SPEAKER_02: which comes across pretty,
28:35
SPEAKER_02: like if I were to imagine what the people facing me,
28:39
SPEAKER_02: like what they're seeing is most likely,
28:43
SPEAKER_02: because again,
28:44
SPEAKER_02: there isn't enough feedback from People usually
28:48
SPEAKER_02: to describe like what what does it look like or feel like to you when when
28:52
SPEAKER_02: the containment has been breached.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: But I'm imagining that it's pretty direct and pretty like steely, like,
29:02
SPEAKER_02: you know,
29:02
SPEAKER_02: pretty intense and pretty like,
29:06
SPEAKER_02: like almost like a weapon coming across with sharp,
29:11
SPEAKER_02: very exact words and a very exact Attack as a way to protect
29:21
SPEAKER_02: and push this thing away.
29:25
SPEAKER_02: That's how I imagine it comes across.
29:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
29:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
29:36
SPEAKER_00: what Ira mentioned is that the heating time,
29:40
SPEAKER_00: that is true, so it has to be maintained for a while.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: For it to reach that stage where it just has to get out.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: And now I'm also thinking more in response to your question, how do I get perceived by others?
30:04
SPEAKER_00: And most certainly it's because a volcano eruption, like an earthquake.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: For me, it's not about words.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: My whole body wants to engage in a fight.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: Be really loud and scream.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: So I would not be able to choose exact words or accurate words at all.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: I would be just over someone and pulling in the hair and things like that.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: You mean you would physically attack?
30:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's what the expression is.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, I've done that in my life.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: And
30:55
SPEAKER_00: for me, where a lot of energy that I would say anger energy is in my hands.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: I've wondered even about that.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: I had some experiences wondering why, because there is this tension in my head.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: It's as if it exists there.
31:19
SPEAKER_02: Oh.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:23
SPEAKER_02: That's really cool.
31:24
SPEAKER_02: I actually haven't thought about that pathway.
31:27
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for sharing that.
31:32
SPEAKER_02: Somehow I don't really feel my extremities when it comes to
31:39
SPEAKER_02: But I do remember recently,
31:41
SPEAKER_02: I think I've shared this story with the two of you,
31:44
SPEAKER_02: recently I had an interaction where I was a bit accosted by a man on the beach
31:52
SPEAKER_02: and talking about parts.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: When I realized that the interaction was actually hostile and not friendly,
32:01
SPEAKER_02: the part that came up that I had to really drag back was a part
32:07
SPEAKER_02: that suddenly was like, Oh yeah?
32:11
SPEAKER_02: You want to bring it on?
32:12
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to fight you now.
32:14
SPEAKER_02: Like she just wanted to get into,
32:17
SPEAKER_02: and I think,
32:19
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I fully felt my hands,
32:20
SPEAKER_02: but I did have that sensation of like my arms will be engaged,
32:24
SPEAKER_02: like as if I'm going to punch this guy,
32:27
SPEAKER_02: which was insane because I am not a fighter when it comes to this kind of,
32:32
SPEAKER_02: you know,
32:32
SPEAKER_02: like I don't get physical like that,
32:34
SPEAKER_02: but there was that impulse of, And I haven't seen her in a long time.
32:39
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, where are you from?
32:41
SPEAKER_02: What is this?
32:43
SPEAKER_02: I think it's like from my New York days.
32:44
SPEAKER_02: I think in New York,
32:47
SPEAKER_02: this part must have had more access to me because New York was a pretty tough place
32:54
SPEAKER_02: to be.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: And you always had to be a bit in a protective mode.
32:57
SPEAKER_02: You never knew what was coming at you.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: Whereas in California, it's a pretty...
33:01
SPEAKER_02: Chill, relaxed atmosphere.
33:03
SPEAKER_02: The last thing I think about is that part of me that's like ready for a fight.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: But something about the hands, that's an interesting thing.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for sharing that.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: It sounds like you have something similar in terms of that mechanism.
33:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: I actually have been not only thinking, but I have been observing this as like,
33:28
SPEAKER_01: During some time already, I was listening to you.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: And remember when we had this idea,
33:39
SPEAKER_01: when we were discussing several of our episodes,
33:41
SPEAKER_01: that the energy that we're discussing is actually somehow manifests in
33:47
SPEAKER_01: the conversation.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: So I started feeling this...
33:52
SPEAKER_01: Energy of anger and I was feeling how my face was like closing
34:00
SPEAKER_01: and I was thinking yeah like I feel it now it's here.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: Who's up for a fight huh?
34:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:18
SPEAKER_02: I think that my biggest method that I've developed is my verbal expression.
34:27
SPEAKER_02: I think that's how I express anger and that's how I fight.
34:32
SPEAKER_02: So the physical pathway would be the last resort.
34:39
SPEAKER_02: But quite weirdly, it was the first impulse on that beach.
34:45
SPEAKER_02: That's why it really scared the shit.
34:47
SPEAKER_02: I actually scared the shit out of myself when that impulse came up.
34:51
SPEAKER_02: I was like...
34:52
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god,
34:53
SPEAKER_02: and I didn't know,
34:54
SPEAKER_02: I forgot about her and I didn't quite know how to reel her back in because
34:58
SPEAKER_02: the other parts came up that were assessing how big this guy was and I was like,
35:03
SPEAKER_02: Polina, there's no way you're going to win this fight if you're going to go for it.
35:09
SPEAKER_02: So I had to really lock it down quickly and remove myself from the situation.
35:16
SPEAKER_02: But yeah,
35:18
SPEAKER_00: what's coming up, Yulia?
35:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm just wondering,
35:25
SPEAKER_00: you were saying the wordy part that can choose the right words is the one
35:30
SPEAKER_00: that is most present or familiar to you or available to you.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: And then the really physically explosive part is what's familiar to me.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: Ir, you are also physically explosive, right?
35:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, when I connect to the energy,
35:55
SPEAKER_01: the gesture that for me expresses it is really like the fist.
36:03
SPEAKER_01: But in the real life, I think the most usual form for me is screaming.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: And really, like, I am quite loud.
36:19
SPEAKER_01: I have been very loud for my whole life.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: And a loud voice.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: And very often when I am very emotional, I just forget to control the level of my voice.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: So, like, when I feel angry, it gets very...
36:43
SPEAKER_01: And yes, as Yulia says, in these situations, I can't control my words.
36:52
SPEAKER_01: And most probably they won't be the most precise and the
36:59
SPEAKER_01: most eloquent,
37:00
SPEAKER_01: but the tone and the level of the voice, what will be screaming...
37:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no,
37:12
SPEAKER_00: there's just an interesting variation because I was taking it to,
37:20
SPEAKER_00: you know, gender context, right?
37:23
SPEAKER_00: So women,
37:25
SPEAKER_00: for women,
37:26
SPEAKER_00: probably it would make more sense to be verbally good while being angry, right?
37:36
SPEAKER_00: Not so much, but I think screaming is also very beneficial.
37:40
SPEAKER_00: Also converting it to tears, anger,
37:46
SPEAKER_00: angry tears, I think also evolutionary, very beneficial, but not so much fighting.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: My expression is misplaced.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: My anger expression.
38:06
SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't see.
38:08
SPEAKER_02: Why would you make that assumption?
38:11
SPEAKER_02: Where is that assumption coming from?
38:15
SPEAKER_00: In the context of survival,
38:19
SPEAKER_00: let's say,
38:20
SPEAKER_00: as a woman, you would not fare well if you were just using your physical force.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: So in terms of cultural,
38:30
SPEAKER_02: and I don't know if this is cultural specifically where we come from
38:34
SPEAKER_02: or is this universal,
38:36
SPEAKER_02: but in terms of The expression of anger through voice,
38:44
SPEAKER_02: the environment I come from,
38:50
SPEAKER_02: there always was a lot of yelling and screaming and the tone goes up really quickly
38:56
SPEAKER_02: and the level and the intensity.
38:59
SPEAKER_02: I think I grew up seeing that as the norm,
39:03
SPEAKER_02: like this is what happens, this is how we communicate.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: I don't even quite know whether there wasn't quite like any modulation
39:13
SPEAKER_02: or any clarity on whether like are we angry and yelling now
39:17
SPEAKER_02: or is this just normal expression like that there wasn't.
39:21
SPEAKER_02: The voice went up pretty quickly,
39:23
SPEAKER_02: and sometimes it was anger,
39:25
SPEAKER_02: but sometimes it was just,
39:27
SPEAKER_02: this is how we talk, you know, this is how we express, right?
39:30
SPEAKER_02: So from the outside,
39:32
SPEAKER_02: it could probably have felt and seemed and,
39:38
SPEAKER_02: you know, as if like this is an angry exchange.
39:42
SPEAKER_02: But culturally, I feel like yelling was a thing, right?
39:46
SPEAKER_02: We were just, we're just, that's how we express.
39:50
SPEAKER_02: And so...
39:53
SPEAKER_02: I think not until this last partner that I met who's not from Russia,
39:59
SPEAKER_02: he's from the Netherlands and he's not American.
40:04
SPEAKER_02: The way he responds to a raised voice.
40:09
SPEAKER_02: Whether it's anger or not, like just my voice just goes up because that is what I'm used to.
40:14
SPEAKER_02: And for him, that all registers as anger.
40:18
SPEAKER_02: Like it's not whether it's passion,
40:20
SPEAKER_02: whether it's like I need to speak louder because there's background noise.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: I need to speak louder because you're not letting me speak,
40:27
SPEAKER_02: you know, like just so my voice goes.
40:29
SPEAKER_02: And for him, it all registers as you're yelling at me and you're angry.
40:37
SPEAKER_02: And for me, it's like, dude, this is how we communicate.
40:40
Um...
40:47
SPEAKER_02: But it's an interesting thing to see from the side
40:51
SPEAKER_02: because I've usually dated also Russian-speaking men.
40:57
SPEAKER_02: And I've had lots of friends that are also Russian-speaking.
41:02
SPEAKER_02: And for us, it's normal to yell, whether we're angry or passionate.
41:07
SPEAKER_02: It's a whole spectrum of things.
41:08
SPEAKER_02: And the voice goes up.
41:10
SPEAKER_02: We get into it.
41:12
SPEAKER_02: It could look from the outside as if it's something else going on.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: I would not be so sure because for my whole life,
41:24
SPEAKER_01: the majority of my Russian friends were always saying to me,
41:29
SPEAKER_01: Ira, just slow your voice down.
41:31
SPEAKER_01: You are too loud.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: So I'm not sure that it's so widely spread for all Russian people to yell
41:40
SPEAKER_01: at each other just because this is the way how we communicate.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: Because I know that I'm,
41:47
SPEAKER_01: for example,
41:47
SPEAKER_01: coming from the dynasty of teachers,
41:50
SPEAKER_01: and I think it's part of the reasons why in the
41:56
SPEAKER_01: family that comes from the side
41:58
SPEAKER_01: of my mother, we are all very loud.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: And for example, for my father, he always says, just don't shout, don't yell.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: Actually,
42:12
SPEAKER_02: I've also gotten that feedback as if like I'm the louder one than the rest of
42:16
SPEAKER_02: the people.
42:17
SPEAKER_02: So maybe it's true.
42:18
SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's not necessarily cultural.
42:20
SPEAKER_02: It's really more based on like my family specifically or the way I learned to express.
42:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've been the I'm very familiar with what you're saying,
42:34
SPEAKER_00: Pauline, when anyone raises the voice.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm so sensitive because I immediately perceive it as,
42:48
SPEAKER_00: you know, well,
42:50
SPEAKER_00: something like anger towards me,
42:52
SPEAKER_00: some intense energy that is towards me that I need to be protective from.
43:01
SPEAKER_00: And I've been taking Russian folk singing classes.
43:09
SPEAKER_00: And first of all, when Because Russian folk singing, by nature, it's about yelling.
43:17
SPEAKER_00: It's about yelling far.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: Basically, you are sending the sound far away.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, it goes to the traditions,
43:26
SPEAKER_00: maybe, how they were singing from one side of the village to the other.
43:33
SPEAKER_00: And so it gets...
43:38
SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to say loud, but it gets very, like you can hear it very well.
43:43
SPEAKER_00: Zvonky.
43:44
SPEAKER_02: How do you say zvonky?
43:47
SPEAKER_02: It resonates.
43:48
SPEAKER_02: It has like a ringing, ringing tone to it.
43:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:53
SPEAKER_00: And so what I've been really struggling with, first of all, just to be loud.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: I was like, God, is it me?
44:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm so loud.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: And then now it's actually raising my voice.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: It's like raising the intonation.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: And I can go down and that works.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: Well, raising does have more technical difficulties than going down.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: But it's just, it's not really bad.
44:26
SPEAKER_00: Being technically a bit more,
44:28
SPEAKER_00: she's saying all the times like,
44:31
SPEAKER_00: oh my God, as soon as you need to go up, you just brace and
44:37
SPEAKER_00: everything contracts.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: And to me,
44:42
SPEAKER_00: that must be something there about that history where raising
44:48
SPEAKER_00: the voice is associated with something like anger.
44:57
SPEAKER_00: How do other people perceive it?
45:00
SPEAKER_00: If this is how I perceive it, then how do the others?
45:03
SPEAKER_00: So there's probably some of that going on.
45:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
45:10
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
45:11
SPEAKER_02: I actually want to ask the next question, which is already kind of we're segued into it.
45:18
SPEAKER_02: What did you learn an angry woman becomes?
45:29
SPEAKER_01: It depends.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: I have this metaphor for myself,
45:44
SPEAKER_01: which I created for myself,
45:45
SPEAKER_01: for explaining certain experiences in my life, certain importance.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: So I...
46:00
SPEAKER_01: I tended to choose
46:05
SPEAKER_01: men for relationship or whom...
46:12
SPEAKER_01: So it's like I was looking for a certain type for whom I could put on a pedestal.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: But it so happened that the type of the men I want to put on the pedestal, they tend to be...
46:30
SPEAKER_01: Abusive type.
46:38
SPEAKER_01: There is a part of me that I call Kali,
46:44
SPEAKER_01: which is very connected to this very destructive,
46:52
SPEAKER_01: the original force.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: And so...
47:01
SPEAKER_01: It just doesn't allow me to take on abuse for too long.
47:07
SPEAKER_01: Because you're like, first time, like, yeah, I love you.
47:10
SPEAKER_01: So you're like, I will take on everything for you because, of course, you're on a pedestal.
47:15
SPEAKER_01: You're my god.
47:16
SPEAKER_01: And then she rises up and she starts slaying demons.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: So...
47:30
SPEAKER_01: She becomes Kali.
47:34
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
47:36
SPEAKER_02: And that visual and that
47:43
SPEAKER_02: image, is that something that you had growing up as well?
47:49
SPEAKER_02: Or is this more of a, like, it's a newer...
47:54
SPEAKER_01: I didn't have this image, but...
48:00
SPEAKER_01: When I have connected to it,
48:03
SPEAKER_01: the way I feel this energy,
48:06
SPEAKER_01: I know that in my ancestral lineage,
48:13
SPEAKER_01: I do feel it present in many women, in my ancestors.
48:22
SPEAKER_02: And when you describe it as Kali, and you mentioned that You know this energy well.
48:30
SPEAKER_02: You felt it down your lineage.
48:40
SPEAKER_02: Your answer to what did you learn an angry woman becomes is, the answer is what, destruction?
48:46
SPEAKER_02: Is that your answer?
48:47
SPEAKER_02: Is that how you would describe it?
48:49
SPEAKER_01: It's not any kind of destruction,
48:53
SPEAKER_01: but for me, this destruction takes very concrete form of this goddess.
48:59
SPEAKER_01: Actually, there is another one, also Sekhmet from the Egyptian
49:08
SPEAKER_01: mythology.
49:10
SPEAKER_01: And if you think about it, those both goddesses have quite a similar story.
49:16
SPEAKER_01: Because it's very, like,
49:19
SPEAKER_01: to the point of the angry woman,
49:21
SPEAKER_01: because it's about the pliable,
49:23
SPEAKER_01: the story of the pliable, very loyal to a man-woman, takes offense...
49:31
SPEAKER_01: Because she has not been recognized,
49:33
SPEAKER_01: or her husband has not been recognized, or her father, there are different versions.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: And so when she feels this lack of recognition,
49:46
SPEAKER_01: lack of respect,
49:52
SPEAKER_01: that she feels that she has been deprived of her dignity,
49:57
SPEAKER_01: And she becomes this uncontrollable force,
50:01
SPEAKER_01: destroying force that destroys everything.
50:09
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
50:10
SPEAKER_02: And
50:13
SPEAKER_02: if we're not looking at it from a mythological perspective and just take it back
50:19
SPEAKER_02: to normal life,
50:23
SPEAKER_02: If you were to express this energy the way,
50:25
SPEAKER_02: let's say,
50:26
SPEAKER_02: it expresses itself in its height,
50:30
SPEAKER_02: the heightened form,
50:35
SPEAKER_02: is it still destruction, the word that you would use in terms of who she becomes?
50:40
SPEAKER_02: Or is she frightening?
50:42
SPEAKER_02: Is she powerful?
50:43
SPEAKER_02: Does she get punished?
50:46
SPEAKER_02: For being this way, is she ugly?
50:49
SPEAKER_02: Is she respected?
50:50
SPEAKER_02: Is she abandoned?
50:53
SPEAKER_02: Not just in terms of how you are experiencing the energy, but what are the consequences usually?
51:00
SPEAKER_01: It depends.
51:03
SPEAKER_01: Well, I personally don't want to generalize about the consequences because I think
51:11
SPEAKER_02: Well, not generalized,
51:12
SPEAKER_02: but in your life,
51:13
SPEAKER_02: is there a through line of what the consequences might have been
51:18
SPEAKER_02: for you expressing anger in this way, to this degree?
51:25
SPEAKER_01: I think in my life, yeah, people get scared
51:30
SPEAKER_00: of me.
51:33
SPEAKER_01: So what are the consequences?
51:36
SPEAKER_01: It depends.
51:38
SPEAKER_01: I severed ties.
51:40
SPEAKER_01: I get rid of relationships.
51:44
SPEAKER_02: Severed ties?
51:45
SPEAKER_02: Okay, uh-huh.
51:50
SPEAKER_01: I also did experience, like,
51:57
SPEAKER_01: because men get scared of me.
52:03
SPEAKER_01: They tried to...
52:08
SPEAKER_01: Contain me professionally.
52:12
SPEAKER_01: So, like,
52:13
SPEAKER_01: I did have experience that I was cut off the promotion at work because
52:23
SPEAKER_01: the guy besides me was too scared of me becoming his boss.
52:34
SPEAKER_01: No, actually, also, I...
52:38
SPEAKER_01: I also, at a different job,
52:42
SPEAKER_01: I was rejected to promotion because people said that they were scared of me.
52:54
SPEAKER_02: Wow, okay.
52:57
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
52:59
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for sharing that.
53:02
SPEAKER_02: Yul, what did you learn when Angry Woman Becomes?
53:07
SPEAKER_00: Well, other people being scared of me, that is somehow sounds familiar.
53:14
SPEAKER_00: I am not sure if that's related to anger or to containment.
53:22
SPEAKER_00: And now that I'm thinking about it,
53:23
SPEAKER_00: maybe it's almost a lifetime of containment that has created this
53:35
SPEAKER_00: disembodiment.
53:39
SPEAKER_00: That really scares people,
53:44
SPEAKER_00: what makes them feel uncomfortable,
53:47
SPEAKER_00: what makes them feel like they don't know what I am or,
53:52
SPEAKER_00: you know, like now what to do with that.
53:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've even discussed,
54:02
SPEAKER_00: I think, here that something like that you've experienced in me also.
54:08
SPEAKER_02: No?
54:11
SPEAKER_02: What are you referring to?
54:12
SPEAKER_00: That, you know, sometimes the
54:20
SPEAKER_00: whatever I'm creating through my embodiment is
54:27
SPEAKER_00: uncomfortable.
54:30
SPEAKER_00: And this is for a long time, it was my default.
54:34
SPEAKER_00: And I had actually to
54:39
SPEAKER_00: put a lot of effort Into
54:43
SPEAKER_00: creating a more friendly appearance.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: You mean recently you've had to do that?
54:51
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
54:53
SPEAKER_00: Well, I did improv for over two years and that was part of it.
54:58
SPEAKER_00: And also, well,
55:01
SPEAKER_00: I've been doing my podcast,
55:04
SPEAKER_00: The Breath of Life,
55:05
SPEAKER_00: and I've been watching some of the footage and Wow,
55:09
SPEAKER_00: my face just goes into this stone and you don't know what's going on there.
55:15
SPEAKER_00: So I had to really practice and stay aware of,
55:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:26
SPEAKER_00: what am I to people now?
55:28
SPEAKER_00: And it's still, I cannot still be aware of it 100% of time, but it's, I think it's, unless...
55:39
SPEAKER_00: There is less of that.
55:40
SPEAKER_00: And I actually maybe even learned to neutralize that.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: Kind of like being scared.
55:52
SPEAKER_00: And now I'm wondering, can I get some of that back?
55:57
SPEAKER_00: Like being okay.
55:58
SPEAKER_00: Well, at that point, I wasn't quite aware that I was scaring people.
56:01
SPEAKER_00: But now I just want some of that to be able to turn on that
56:08
SPEAKER_00: That inside of me, who scares people off.
56:13
SPEAKER_01: And you say that you can't?
56:18
SPEAKER_00: I really contain myself.
56:19
SPEAKER_00: It's like, I put all the lids on.
56:22
SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, oh, oh, now it's going to happen.
56:25
SPEAKER_00: So it's hard.
56:30
SPEAKER_00: Do you have a different experience, Yulia?
56:32
SPEAKER_00: Or why do you ask?
56:40
SPEAKER_01: No, yes,
56:41
SPEAKER_01: I do have a different experience because,
56:43
SPEAKER_01: as I said,
56:47
SPEAKER_01: I don't connect to anger that often in my life,
56:50
SPEAKER_01: so I never had, I think, relief, I didn't.
56:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't have the habit of containing it.
57:01
SPEAKER_01: My question was coming more from that if you...
57:08
SPEAKER_01: The recurring pattern of your life,
57:10
SPEAKER_01: of doing something that was scaring people,
57:13
SPEAKER_01: I would have imagined that it should be,
57:17
SPEAKER_01: even if you train yourself to behave differently,
57:19
SPEAKER_01: I would imagine that it should be quite easier to get it back.
57:26
SPEAKER_01: That's why I was asking.
57:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I...
57:31
SPEAKER_00: The question was not, is your experience differently?
57:35
SPEAKER_00: I was more trained to ask, do you experience me differently than what I'm describing?
57:47
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you know how to do something,
57:50
SPEAKER_00: but you really teach yourself
57:55
SPEAKER_00: to build a wall behind it,
57:59
SPEAKER_00: between this and you.
58:01
SPEAKER_00: And it just feels like there is a, I've built this wall.
58:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
58:14
SPEAKER_00: And well,
58:15
SPEAKER_00: and also it's context-based because in some of my relationships,
58:18
SPEAKER_00: I think the history is such that it just keeps me in this twisted shape
58:25
SPEAKER_00: that we're turning on anger or being scary.
58:32
SPEAKER_00: It's really hard.
58:45
SPEAKER_00: And also for me,
58:46
SPEAKER_00: I had this experience when I was fishing for shadow where One of a shadow figure
58:55
SPEAKER_00: that I encountered was this someone who is an executioner with a big axe
59:02
SPEAKER_00: and this super alpha male muscular body and this leather thing on his thighs.
59:16
SPEAKER_02: What leather thing on his thighs?
59:17
SPEAKER_02: Like a knife holder?
59:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, only a knife holder, that's it.
59:25
SPEAKER_00: Like a skirt.
59:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
59:33
SPEAKER_00: And so to me, well,
59:35
SPEAKER_00: I've been also engaging with this figure in different formats now for three months.
59:43
SPEAKER_00: And occasionally he comes up in different form or through different sensations
59:49
SPEAKER_00: or experiences like, okay, that one.
59:53
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so...
59:57
SPEAKER_00: I think there is maybe something about me,
1:00:04
SPEAKER_00: how connected anger to me with my hands, carrying an axe.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_00: So there is something in that experience that to me says,
1:00:18
SPEAKER_00: well, you better be careful because people can just be killed.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_00: And before that, I think I didn't have that.
1:00:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, it just came on, right?
1:00:34
SPEAKER_00: So it was just overcome by different parts.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_00: And now it's complicated.
1:00:45
SPEAKER_02: I want to add that I really resonate with what Yulia describe in terms of the,
1:00:52
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:00:53
SPEAKER_02: once you have that containment mechanism so Well developed for so long,
1:00:58
SPEAKER_02: which is what I had to develop for myself.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_02: It is very hard to have a more fluid relationship with anger and the expression of it, right?
1:01:12
SPEAKER_02: Or even the felt sense of it.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_02: So that's why it's actually funny because I think about those times
1:01:17
SPEAKER_02: when I'm being reprimanded for my Loud voice and the anger I'm expressing,
1:01:26
SPEAKER_02: the fact that the person on
1:01:27
SPEAKER_02: the receiving end doesn't understand how much containment has been actually held
1:01:37
SPEAKER_02: And engaged with,
1:01:39
SPEAKER_02: and the degree to which,
1:01:41
SPEAKER_02: and for how long,
1:01:42
SPEAKER_02: that if at this point I'm already raising my voice and I'm expressing it,
1:01:47
SPEAKER_02: we're talking about all the freaking walls have been breached.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_02: I am at that level now.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_02: Which also,
1:01:58
SPEAKER_02: of course,
1:01:59
SPEAKER_02: makes me question whether if I didn't have this containment mechanism,
1:02:04
SPEAKER_02: would it be easier not to go from zero to 100 from the perspective of that person?
1:02:09
SPEAKER_02: Would it be easier to have different modulations throughout?
1:02:16
SPEAKER_02: Because those walls really do
1:02:21
SPEAKER_02: They take away the ability to really feel what Yira describes as boiling.
1:02:28
SPEAKER_02: For me, I don't know that I have a very felt sensation of the boiling happening and growing.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_02: I think the containment is taking away the ability to sense that mechanism.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_02: And that's why it goes often.
1:02:43
SPEAKER_02: It seems like it's going from zero to 100, but it's really not going from zero to 100.
1:02:50
SPEAKER_02: And having to unlearn that mechanism is actually quite challenging.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not even sure I even know exactly how to do so yet, but I'm investigating.
1:03:05
SPEAKER_02: And the stone face is something that I also have.
1:03:08
SPEAKER_02: And I get feedback about it.
1:03:11
SPEAKER_02: Like people don't know what I'm thinking and feeling.
1:03:15
SPEAKER_02: And for me,
1:03:17
SPEAKER_02: It was a way to not show the world what I'm investigating internally
1:03:24
SPEAKER_02: until I figure out what it is that I want to reveal or present, right?
1:03:29
SPEAKER_02: So it allowed me that modulation that I feel like otherwise...
1:03:37
SPEAKER_02: This was a learned thing.
1:03:39
SPEAKER_02: It was learned by having experiences and getting feedback
1:03:43
SPEAKER_02: of people not liking however it was that I was being.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_02: So in order to fit into society,
1:03:49
SPEAKER_02: and this wasn't even necessarily Russian society,
1:03:52
SPEAKER_02: I think it was American society, but it's very complicated, right?
1:03:56
SPEAKER_02: Because there's so many variables along the way,
1:04:00
SPEAKER_02: but in order to fit into society,
1:04:02
SPEAKER_02: this was the mechanism that I had to figure out how to do.
1:04:06
SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, I don't think I would have been able to, And now...
1:04:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, shit,
1:04:25
SPEAKER_02: I have to unlearn all of this and I have no idea how to do so and come back
1:04:31
SPEAKER_02: to whatever the original self might have been and figure out a way to build
1:04:37
SPEAKER_02: a new mechanism around all of this.
1:04:40
SPEAKER_02: And it's really quite complicated.
1:04:47
SPEAKER_02: And I love that Ida said she didn't have to create that habit of containing it.
1:04:52
SPEAKER_02: What a different journey.
1:04:54
SPEAKER_02: And how envious I am of you that you've obviously had people in your life
1:04:59
SPEAKER_02: and experiences in your life,
1:05:00
SPEAKER_02: even though I know you've had some that had consequences to them.
1:05:04
SPEAKER_02: But that originally, I guess you had enough people and experiences that allowed you to be you.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_02: So you didn't have to like learn how to shut it down.
1:05:14
SPEAKER_02: At least that's what it sounds like.
1:05:17
SPEAKER_01: Well,
1:05:19
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't
1:05:23
SPEAKER_01: get that far saying that if I was allowed to express my anger,
1:05:28
SPEAKER_01: that means that I was allowed to be me.
1:05:31
SPEAKER_01: I
1:05:34
SPEAKER_01: think the reason is just like I was not expressing
1:05:41
SPEAKER_01: my anger that often
1:05:43
SPEAKER_01: because I don't feel it that often.
1:05:47
SPEAKER_01: That's why I didn't need this mechanism of containment because it happens just occasionally.
1:05:55
SPEAKER_01: Occasionally I burst out, okay.
1:05:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but to have a life that wouldn't push you to the experience of anger,
1:06:05
SPEAKER_02: that's pretty freaking cool in my book because all I remember growing up,
1:06:09
SPEAKER_02: like as early as four years old, it was just being pushed out.
1:06:13
SPEAKER_02: To anger,
1:06:14
SPEAKER_02: like the people,
1:06:16
SPEAKER_02: the situations,
1:06:17
SPEAKER_02: the way I was treated,
1:06:18
SPEAKER_02: like it was just anger, anger, anger,
1:06:20
SPEAKER_02: you know, like so that's why an anger that had consequences, not good consequences.
1:06:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but now what I'm thinking,
1:06:31
SPEAKER_01: as we are talking about it,
1:06:33
SPEAKER_01: is just, I'm thinking that maybe my containing mechanism is just very different.
1:06:40
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't contain the anger per se.
1:06:44
SPEAKER_01: It contains anything that would trigger anger.
1:06:49
SPEAKER_01: Because the way how I see it,
1:06:53
SPEAKER_01: the reason why I don't experience anger that often,
1:06:56
SPEAKER_01: it's not because you're like,
1:06:59
SPEAKER_01: I live in a wonderful world and everything is lovely.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_01: Just because you're like, my nature is being a good girl.
1:07:12
SPEAKER_01: So I'm so ideal.
1:07:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm so good that it's not that I have to contain anger.
1:07:20
SPEAKER_01: I simply don't feel it because I'm good.
1:07:26
SPEAKER_01: This is my containment.
1:07:30
SPEAKER_02: And so you learned that a good girl does not feel gay.
1:07:33
SPEAKER_02: No, I didn't learn it.
1:07:35
SPEAKER_02: I didn't learn it.
1:07:36
SPEAKER_01: I was born this way.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_01: You were born this way.
1:07:39
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
1:07:39
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
1:07:41
SPEAKER_01: This is the conditioning that's even not behavioral, it's the energetical.
1:07:48
SPEAKER_01: I was born to be an ideal.
1:07:53
SPEAKER_01: So there are certain things that were just simply not available to me energetically
1:07:59
SPEAKER_01: because they don't resonate with me.
1:08:04
SPEAKER_01: I know that deep down I have this...
1:08:09
SPEAKER_01: I have this part that have this very strong connection to aggression, to anger, to all this.
1:08:19
SPEAKER_01: They are too deep down.
1:08:25
SPEAKER_01: This is not that
1:08:30
SPEAKER_01: gets to the surface naturally.
1:08:37
SPEAKER_02: But yet you said that you have access to Kali energy.
1:08:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:08:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, again, that's why I call her Kali.
1:08:52
SPEAKER_01: In the alter ego of Kali, I think it was Parvati.
1:09:00
SPEAKER_01: She was 99% of her life, she was Parvati.
1:09:05
SPEAKER_01: She was the good ideal wife.
1:09:10
SPEAKER_01: And then 1% of her life she was turning into Kali that was destroying the world.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_02: I am feeling the pull to unpack this with you, but we cannot
1:09:23
SPEAKER_00: do so.
1:09:24
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I'm hearing different messages and I'm not quite sure what that means.
1:09:31
SPEAKER_02: But we will have to save that for another episode, perhaps.
1:09:36
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
1:09:40
SPEAKER_01: I do think that the, what is the, not the angry, what is the words?
1:09:48
SPEAKER_01: There is a specific term how they call these goddesses.
1:09:56
SPEAKER_01: Rage?
1:09:57
SPEAKER_00: Hmm?
1:09:59
SPEAKER_01: Maybe raging goddesses, but I will need to check it out.
1:10:05
SPEAKER_01: There is this specific term that describes the series of goddesses that...
1:10:13
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it doesn't ring the bell,
1:10:16
SPEAKER_01: but anyway,
1:10:17
SPEAKER_01: so this is like the archetype of the feminine energy
1:10:23
SPEAKER_01: that I think is worth investigating and getting into.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_01: Because I have found in my life that it hides very,
1:10:40
SPEAKER_01: very powerful and very interesting aspects
1:10:44
SPEAKER_00: Teachers of
1:10:49
SPEAKER_00: women.
1:10:51
SPEAKER_01: Very often we're not allowing ourselves to connect to and to express it in a healthy way.
1:11:01
SPEAKER_02: That's true,
1:11:02
SPEAKER_02: but also if we have to talk about an archetype,
1:11:06
SPEAKER_02: Then that is really, really far away from lived experience in my book.
1:11:11
SPEAKER_02: So that is like a very different exploration and different discussion.
1:11:14
SPEAKER_02: And I just for the purposes of today, I want to.
1:11:18
SPEAKER_02: Try to stay with the lived experience.
1:11:22
SPEAKER_02: But the fact that we have to talk about an archetype when it comes
1:11:25
SPEAKER_02: to our innate expression of anger,
1:11:29
SPEAKER_02: therein lies something that requires further consideration and investigation,
1:11:35
SPEAKER_02: just like
1:11:38
SPEAKER_02: You know, plainly.
1:11:40
SPEAKER_02: But I just want to I want to answer for myself the question of what did I learn
1:11:44
SPEAKER_02: an angry woman becomes?
1:11:46
SPEAKER_02: And my answer to that is absolutely and positively punished,
1:11:50
SPEAKER_02: shunned,
1:11:53
SPEAKER_02: disrespected,
1:11:55
SPEAKER_02: you know, abandoned, like the opposite of anything that that would happen.
1:12:00
SPEAKER_02: Give me personally any cause or signal that this is an energy that is normal,
1:12:07
SPEAKER_02: part of the equation and can and should be integrated and be part of life.
1:12:18
SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
1:12:22
SPEAKER_01: It does.
1:12:30
SPEAKER_01: So are you integrating it now?
1:12:35
SPEAKER_02: Integrating it would be a step way further than where I am at now.
1:12:40
SPEAKER_02: I am literally taking it all the way back.
1:12:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to explore and understand, like, what is anger?
1:12:46
SPEAKER_02: Right?
1:12:48
SPEAKER_02: What does it stand for?
1:12:49
SPEAKER_02: What is this energy?
1:12:51
SPEAKER_02: The different variations of it?
1:12:56
SPEAKER_02: And then for me personally,
1:12:59
SPEAKER_02: I guess for Yulia,
1:13:01
SPEAKER_02: for me to truly just even explore it before we can even talk about integration,
1:13:06
SPEAKER_02: that requires taking down some serious walls and containments
1:13:10
SPEAKER_02: that I have built around it.
1:13:14
SPEAKER_02: I'm at a process of way, you know, taking it back, like rewind it back to what was this energy?
1:13:22
SPEAKER_02: Well, I guess, what is it now?
1:13:24
SPEAKER_02: But what could this energy be if the walls get taken down
1:13:28
SPEAKER_02: and this containment mechanism is taken down?
1:13:34
SPEAKER_02: And then maybe I'll talk about integration and whatever else comes from it.
1:13:40
SPEAKER_00: No, but if To me,
1:13:44
SPEAKER_00: what I really appreciate about some of the spaces that I've been to is those spaces
1:13:50
SPEAKER_00: that create those environments for practicing it.
1:13:55
SPEAKER_00: I think there is nothing like practice in inhabiting that energy
1:13:59
SPEAKER_00: and letting it have you back or letting yourself have the energy back.
1:14:06
SPEAKER_00: There is some
1:14:12
SPEAKER_00: Melting and entanglement or entanglement happens.
1:14:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:14:17
SPEAKER_00: And so whenever I was,
1:14:22
SPEAKER_00: I had those experiences when I was kind of like encouraged in expressions,
1:14:27
SPEAKER_00: like what's come up with anger.
1:14:29
SPEAKER_00: And I was also have experience of yelling or just really
1:14:38
SPEAKER_00: Expressing physical aggression readiness.
1:14:45
SPEAKER_00: So I wasn't fighting with anyone,
1:14:47
SPEAKER_00: I just like went into full expression of what it is like,
1:14:51
SPEAKER_00: what do my fists do and hands and, you know, do I want to yell and things like that.
1:14:59
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I really appreciate those encounters.
1:15:05
SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
1:15:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:15:07
SPEAKER_02: And we could talk about that and maybe in another episode, what do you do with anger?
1:15:14
SPEAKER_02: How do you explore it?
1:15:16
SPEAKER_02: But that's not what I was trying to do today or what the invitation was.
1:15:23
SPEAKER_02: But certainly I would love to have that discussion at some point.
1:15:27
SPEAKER_02: I think that in the interest of time,
1:15:29
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to ask one more question and then we'll start wrapping up.
1:15:35
SPEAKER_02: Just to kind of finish this thread off a little bit, if possible.
1:15:42
SPEAKER_02: Whose anger was allowed in your home and whose wasn't growing up?
1:15:56
SPEAKER_00: And both of my parents' anger was allowed,
1:15:59
SPEAKER_00: but just at different points and in different contexts.
1:16:03
SPEAKER_00: Like my dad's anger was a big part of him.
1:16:08
SPEAKER_00: And so it didn't really ask for permission.
1:16:11
SPEAKER_00: It was just there.
1:16:15
SPEAKER_00: My mom's anger also was allowed to be there when
1:16:21
SPEAKER_00: it was allowed by my dad's anger
1:16:24
SPEAKER_00: or my dad's state or my dad's tolerance level.
1:16:27
SPEAKER_00: Like there were moments when that anger was allowed.
1:16:32
SPEAKER_00: My mom's
1:16:36
SPEAKER_00: anger also could be expressed with us, with the kids, with me and my sister.
1:16:49
SPEAKER_00: Which was scary, which was more scary than my dad's anger.
1:16:54
SPEAKER_00: It was different.
1:16:57
SPEAKER_00: In what way?
1:16:59
SPEAKER_00: In the way that to me personally,
1:17:01
SPEAKER_00: there could be more risks from that,
1:17:05
SPEAKER_00: or I could feel more repercussions or something.
1:17:11
SPEAKER_00: Or also maybe it's because my relationship with my mother for a long time was
1:17:17
SPEAKER_00: that I was very protective of her.
1:17:24
SPEAKER_00: And so what was coming from her And also she was the really like the
1:17:33
SPEAKER_00: ideal one.
1:17:34
SPEAKER_00: And I was, she was the one who I was protecting.
1:17:37
SPEAKER_00: So it's as if maybe that anger hurt more.
1:17:44
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
1:17:46
SPEAKER_02: Like a betrayal.
1:17:49
SPEAKER_02: Kind of, yeah.
1:17:50
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
1:17:51
SPEAKER_00: It feels like it.
1:17:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:17:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:17:58
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for sharing that.
1:18:02
SPEAKER_02: Yulia Bogdanova, what about you?
1:18:04
SPEAKER_02: Whose anger was allowed in your home and whose wasn't?
1:18:08
SPEAKER_01: I think,
1:18:12
SPEAKER_01: for what I remember,
1:18:13
SPEAKER_01: I remember the expression of anger from all members of my family,
1:18:25
SPEAKER_01: my formative years.
1:18:32
SPEAKER_01: Not allowing anger is not something that is registered with you.
1:18:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's really cool.
1:18:48
SPEAKER_02: It beats the stereotype that I have in my mind about Russian families, for sure.
1:18:57
SPEAKER_01: And what is the stereotype?
1:19:00
SPEAKER_02: That anger is really dangerous and not allowed or, well,
1:19:06
SPEAKER_02: in my family and really in my mind, a man's anger is allowed and a woman's is not.
1:19:14
SPEAKER_02: And women really have to,
1:19:16
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:19:17
SPEAKER_02: concoct themselves into all kinds of ways,
1:19:20
SPEAKER_02: shapes and forms in order to deal with situations
1:19:28
SPEAKER_02: In more wise and mature ways, whereas the men just get to explode and do whatever.
1:19:42
SPEAKER_01: That is definitely not the cultural environment I grew up in because in Russia,
1:19:50
SPEAKER_01: really, the major pattern was
1:19:58
SPEAKER_01: It's a very weird type of the patriarchy because it was the patriarchy,
1:20:05
SPEAKER_01: the global scale,
1:20:06
SPEAKER_01: but
1:20:09
SPEAKER_01: in the majority of the families really who were dominating were women.
1:20:16
SPEAKER_02: Dominating, yes, but dominating through anger?
1:20:19
SPEAKER_02: Also.
1:20:27
SPEAKER_00: I would say that I could see that like those scenarios were there
1:20:31
SPEAKER_00: where not necessarily all of the families, but
1:20:34
SPEAKER_01: some.
1:20:35
SPEAKER_01: Yelling,
1:20:36
SPEAKER_01: screaming women,
1:20:38
SPEAKER_01: like yelling at her husband is the most typical image of a Russian family.
1:20:46
SPEAKER_00: Moulding the man and doing that through anger.
1:20:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is very familiar.
1:20:56
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so then maybe my upbringing was not a typical one.
1:21:01
SPEAKER_02: Yes, the women do yell and scream,
1:21:07
SPEAKER_02: but I don't know that it was very safe to do so or they would get very far.
1:21:12
SPEAKER_02: So they had to come up with other ways of controlling or manipulating situations.
1:21:17
SPEAKER_02: They would become very rigid and very like steely and very like direct and very like precise.
1:21:24
SPEAKER_02: But the men...
1:21:26
SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't say the men,
1:21:27
SPEAKER_02: like all the men in my family,
1:21:28
SPEAKER_02: but like my dad definitely was an explosive anger, like dangerous person.
1:21:35
SPEAKER_02: And my mom would just not, she would just disappear.
1:21:41
SPEAKER_02: So she was also the one I would have to protect, but she would like just disappear.
1:21:45
SPEAKER_02: She wouldn't really engage.
1:21:47
SPEAKER_02: She wouldn't stop the anger.
1:21:50
SPEAKER_02: She wouldn't stop the danger.
1:21:51
SPEAKER_02: She would just hide.
1:21:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:22:02
SPEAKER_02: I guess,
1:22:02
SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
1:22:03
SPEAKER_02: maybe I need to reconsider my mental scheme for what I think of as a,
1:22:10
SPEAKER_02: but yes, that's true.
1:22:11
SPEAKER_02: I mean, in the movies,
1:22:13
SPEAKER_02: there are,
1:22:14
SPEAKER_02: the stereotype is women are yelling at their men, right, in the Russian movies.
1:22:19
SPEAKER_02: But men are quite dangerous, no?
1:22:21
SPEAKER_02: Like they, I don't know, I just grew up having this idea that men are really dangerous, right?
1:22:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but this is the thing.
1:22:32
SPEAKER_01: So at least in the Soviet Union after the Second World War,
1:22:39
SPEAKER_01: it was the society of dominating women.
1:22:43
SPEAKER_01: At least,
1:22:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:22:45
SPEAKER_01: like in my environment,
1:22:48
SPEAKER_01: like the families that I have been observing, like men are dangerous, of course.
1:22:53
SPEAKER_01: And so I guess the...
1:22:57
SPEAKER_01: Women who live in these situations of the abusive relationship
1:23:03
SPEAKER_01: when there is really physical abuse,
1:23:06
SPEAKER_01: and especially if the man is an alcoholic,
1:23:13
SPEAKER_01: there could be this situation, then the woman would have to learn to
1:23:24
SPEAKER_01: Contain her anger because it might be dangerous.
1:23:28
SPEAKER_01: But in the majority of the normal situations,
1:23:34
SPEAKER_01: it was the woman who were dominating and actually suppressing for the man
1:23:45
SPEAKER_01: the possible healthy expression of his male energy.
1:23:52
SPEAKER_01: They have witnessed many families where men just died of alcoholism
1:24:01
SPEAKER_01: because they were totally overdominated by their lives.
1:24:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can I can see that I need to make more of
1:24:14
SPEAKER_02: a conscious effort separating like my like my nuclear family from,
1:24:19
SPEAKER_02: let's say,
1:24:20
SPEAKER_02: the The outer rungs of the family,
1:24:23
SPEAKER_02: because I think that I specifically had a very different potentially experience
1:24:27
SPEAKER_02: than my grandparents, for example, in those family units.
1:24:32
SPEAKER_02: So I appreciate the space that was created through this conversation.
1:24:36
SPEAKER_02: I didn't quite intend to go in this direction with this conversation today, but it is helpful.
1:24:42
SPEAKER_02: Yul, what were you going to say?
1:24:45
SPEAKER_00: I was going to say that it's also, but there was some complexity there.
1:24:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like in my family,
1:24:50
SPEAKER_00: for example,
1:24:51
SPEAKER_00: my mother totally was, I mean,
1:24:53
SPEAKER_00: dominating in the grand scheme of things, yet her anger had to be context-based.
1:25:01
SPEAKER_00: So if, you know,
1:25:02
SPEAKER_00: there was,
1:25:04
SPEAKER_00: she had to discern whether now,
1:25:08
SPEAKER_00: Is the right time to express the anger or whether it needs to wait
1:25:12
SPEAKER_00: and be expressed tomorrow morning or things like that.
1:25:15
SPEAKER_00: So I think there was just,
1:25:19
SPEAKER_00: you know, it was,
1:25:20
SPEAKER_00: and still, I mean,
1:25:22
SPEAKER_00: those are relationships of paradoxical nature because, I mean, women,
1:25:30
SPEAKER_00: not only in Russia,
1:25:31
SPEAKER_00: but in lots of countries have,
1:25:35
SPEAKER_00: still have a lot of strategies,
1:25:36
SPEAKER_00: not necessarily Anger to dominate or maybe manipulate the men in certain ways.
1:25:46
SPEAKER_00: But then it's also men have their own strategies.
1:25:49
SPEAKER_00: And, and the mix of those, I think it's different by countries.
1:25:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, but anger in women is a big thing that was totally allowed
1:26:05
SPEAKER_00: in Russia.
1:26:10
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:26:11
SPEAKER_01: And then, let's not forget, women are getting angry with other women.
1:26:24
SPEAKER_01: That could be very explosive and very manipulative and very dangerous.
1:26:31
SPEAKER_00: Very dangerous.
1:26:34
SPEAKER_02: That is true.
1:26:36
SPEAKER_02: So when you mentioned that directionality,
1:26:40
SPEAKER_02: women to women,
1:26:41
SPEAKER_02: I feel like that's much more of a in my experience has been much more covert and
1:26:46
SPEAKER_02: a lot more in the containment category than like overt expression.
1:26:55
SPEAKER_01: Like covertly that that's dating and trying to
1:26:58
SPEAKER_02: figure out ways of like managing
1:27:00
SPEAKER_02: or getting what you want with other women now.
1:27:03
SPEAKER_01: No, that would depend really on the cultural context,
1:27:09
SPEAKER_01: the upbringing, the environment they grew up with, their personalities, etc.
1:27:15
SPEAKER_01: But again, the picture of a woman yelling at another woman, they're yelling at each other.
1:27:23
SPEAKER_01: I have it in my mind.
1:27:25
SPEAKER_01: For me, it seems very natural.
1:27:30
SPEAKER_02: It's so funny because you would think we would have the same experiences
1:27:35
SPEAKER_02: and relationships to anger because we do come originally from the same country.
1:27:41
SPEAKER_02: And yet just in our little group,
1:27:43
SPEAKER_02: there's really a variation of experience and internal experience,
1:27:48
SPEAKER_02: external experience, a context.
1:27:50
SPEAKER_02: Like it's really varied.
1:27:53
SPEAKER_02: And then yet the way we usually talk about this is as if,
1:27:57
SPEAKER_02: This one word means the same thing to each one of us and it's the same pathway
1:28:03
SPEAKER_02: and it's the same, you know, it's the same context.
1:28:06
SPEAKER_02: And.
1:28:09
SPEAKER_02: Just in our group, it's it's really nuanced.
1:28:15
SPEAKER_02: And varied.
1:28:16
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:28:24
SPEAKER_02: OK, so.
1:28:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very, what?
1:28:28
SPEAKER_02: Contextual?
1:28:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
1:28:33
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:28:33
SPEAKER_02: I really,
1:28:34
SPEAKER_02: really do want to,
1:28:36
SPEAKER_02: there's so many directions we could take with this topic and I would really like to
1:28:41
SPEAKER_02: at some point.
1:28:42
SPEAKER_02: And just for now,
1:28:44
SPEAKER_02: I would love to hear what the two of you are leaving with today
1:28:49
SPEAKER_02: after having this conversation.
1:28:52
SPEAKER_02: Whoever wants to share.
1:28:55
SPEAKER_02: No pressure.
1:29:01
SPEAKER_01: Think I live with the desire to connect to my anger more.
1:29:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that desire has been with me for a while now.
1:29:12
SPEAKER_00: I was like, hmm, where are you?
1:29:17
SPEAKER_00: I have this longing for you.
1:29:23
SPEAKER_00: Come, how can I entice you?
1:29:28
SPEAKER_00: Tell me.
1:29:40
SPEAKER_00: And then immediately this question comes on, what if someone gets hurt in the process?
1:29:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I'm just gonna, I mean, containment and how much of that?
1:29:59
SPEAKER_00: It has been in me,
1:30:02
SPEAKER_00: I think,
1:30:02
SPEAKER_00: something that I became more aware of and more curious about,
1:30:11
SPEAKER_00: about
1:30:17
SPEAKER_00: the ways to
1:30:21
SPEAKER_00: make those walls less,
1:30:26
SPEAKER_00: more permeable.
1:30:36
SPEAKER_02: I'm leaving with curiosity.
1:30:41
SPEAKER_02: In preparing for this episode,
1:30:43
SPEAKER_02: I actually made a few assumptions about
1:30:48
SPEAKER_02: how anger was going to be expressed
1:30:50
SPEAKER_02: or talked about or experienced, and it was really interesting to
1:30:57
SPEAKER_02: To see myself from the side thinking that anger was going to show up as a red hot,
1:31:04
SPEAKER_02: you know, in your face type of topic.
1:31:06
SPEAKER_02: And then in the exploration,
1:31:08
SPEAKER_02: I was like,
1:31:08
SPEAKER_02: wait, no, it's actually a quite of a cold metallic containment came up as a word.
1:31:15
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh, my God, containment.
1:31:19
SPEAKER_02: Totally different pathway to anger that I don't even think I like really consciously.
1:31:25
SPEAKER_02: Yes, we talked about bracing before, right?
1:31:27
SPEAKER_02: But I didn't quite...
1:31:30
SPEAKER_02: See the containment pathway and how it is actually built up like a fortress internally.
1:31:36
SPEAKER_02: And it's not necessarily a hot energy.
1:31:39
SPEAKER_02: Like, yes,
1:31:39
SPEAKER_02: it's hot when it's already bursting out of me,
1:31:41
SPEAKER_02: but it's actually quite of a cooling down in order to contain.
1:31:46
SPEAKER_02: It was really surprising to me that I've never seen these nuances before.
1:31:55
SPEAKER_02: I am really, really,
1:31:57
SPEAKER_02: really curious and interested in, yeah,
1:32:00
SPEAKER_02: dismantling in a loving,
1:32:04
SPEAKER_02: caring way,
1:32:05
SPEAKER_02: in a way that is
1:32:08
SPEAKER_02: healthy and easy for my system not to get scared
1:32:15
SPEAKER_02: as potentially we're taking down like the only,
1:32:18
SPEAKER_02: one of the main mechanisms of protection.
1:32:21
SPEAKER_02: So I'd like to do it in a, Slow, kind,
1:32:25
SPEAKER_02: caring way for the system and at the same time figure out what is anger going
1:32:33
SPEAKER_02: to feel like and look like and how is it going to course through my system without
1:32:38
SPEAKER_02: that mechanism.
1:32:44
SPEAKER_02: And obviously I've made some assumptions about our culture and where I come from.
1:32:50
SPEAKER_02: That I also need to look even closer at now that we've had this conversation.
1:32:57
SPEAKER_02: Maybe I'm very heavily biased by my specific family dynamic that I've included in
1:33:04
SPEAKER_02: a more general, broader sense about Russian families.
1:33:19
SPEAKER_02: And I'm working towards more allowance and allowing and what is that going
1:33:26
SPEAKER_02: to look like and feel like if things are allowed more?
1:33:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:33:47
SPEAKER_00: It's nice to have permission.
1:33:49
SPEAKER_00: Whether from yourself or from others or from both sides.
1:33:56
SPEAKER_02: I think at this point in my life, I'm most interested in my own permission for my own self.
1:34:04
SPEAKER_02: And I will not be outsourcing that permission to anyone else.
1:34:11
SPEAKER_02: Of course, there is still the question of expression of anger.
1:34:16
SPEAKER_02: That is healthy and productive, but I'm not going to worry about that just yet.
1:34:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm several steps before that.
1:34:27
SPEAKER_00: No, I mean,
1:34:28
SPEAKER_00: sometimes the permission is there both from you and from the other side,
1:34:33
SPEAKER_00: then this becomes like a chemical process.
1:34:38
SPEAKER_02: I see what you mean.
1:34:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, that would be wonderful, right?
1:34:41
SPEAKER_02: To have permission from the other side.
1:34:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:34:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, that would be super cool to explore.
1:34:49
SPEAKER_02: I don't know that I have many people to explore that with, but there's a few, potentially.
1:34:55
SPEAKER_02: Maybe the three of us could also work on that exploration.
1:35:01
SPEAKER_02: Scary.
1:35:04
SPEAKER_02: Exciting.
1:35:07
SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, does anyone else have anything they want to share before we close things off today?
1:35:16
SPEAKER_02: Okay, well,
1:35:17
SPEAKER_02: thank you very much to the two of you for sharing openly and vulnerably
1:35:23
SPEAKER_02: about something that is not necessarily easy to talk about.
1:35:28
SPEAKER_02: And I really appreciate the two of you and I appreciate myself.
1:35:34
SPEAKER_02: And thank you to whoever's listening.
1:35:39
SPEAKER_02: And we would love to hear from you any reflections about this topic in terms
1:35:45
SPEAKER_02: of how anger shows up for you,
1:35:48
SPEAKER_02: how you express it,
1:35:50
SPEAKER_02: what messages you've learned about expressing anger, anything like that.
1:35:55
SPEAKER_02: We would absolutely love to hear about.
1:35:58
SPEAKER_02: So please do share.
1:36:00
SPEAKER_02: Otherwise we will see you in the next episode thank you so much
1:36:19
SPEAKER_00: thanks
1:36:19
SPEAKER_00: for listening how was it for you We believe that
1:36:23
SPEAKER_00: the more people experience group flow together, the better off we all are.
1:36:29
SPEAKER_00: More connected, more creative, more alive.
1:36:33
SPEAKER_00: So let's expand the field.
1:36:36
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1:36:42
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1:36:46
SPEAKER_01: We love you.
1:36:49
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1:36:53
SPEAKER_02: You can also connect with us on our Life In Flow group Substack.
1:36:56
SPEAKER_02: We'd love to hear from you.
1:36:58
SPEAKER_02: Let's keep flowing together.