Latest / Rough Drafts - Exploring Creative Process - by BOUNCE / David Airey // Not Love at First Sight
Transcript
- Danielle: Welcome to today's podcast. This is Rough Drafts, where ideas are still forming, a podcast that goes behind the Polish portfolio and into the thinking that happens before anyone knows what the making is going to entail. Today's guest is David Airy, and he has spent 20 years doing something that sounds simple and turns out to be one of the hardest problems in design, making a mark that lasts. David is a graphic designer and writer based in Bangor in Northern Ireland. and working independently since 2005, which means he has no agency, no creative director above him, and I suppose no one to blame when things go wrong. He designs logos and visual identities for clients across three countries, from global corporations to individual founders. And he does it almost entirely solo. But what makes David's unusual isn't just his client list, it's what he does before he picks up the pencil. his process. It involves describing the creative strategy in words and only words before a single visual is developed. Just language. It's just a discipline that forces the thinking to happen first. And it's the kind of thing that never ends up in the case study. So I'm looking forward to exploring that more today. He has fully articulated his process in his book Identity Designed and he publishes a monthly, bi-monthly blog of curated content. of his interests from design, music, literature, film, culture, and of course, some project works that's a in progress. So definitely check out and sign up to that newsletter. But he's also spent 17 years trying to explain what logo design actually is. And his book, Logo Design Love, which was first published in 2009, translated into 13 languages, but also landed on the design reading list of pretty much every college and university worldwide. David Airey: you Danielle: It's now in its third edition and it's fully revised. It has new contributors, new case studies and what David describes as a deeper look at an evolving role of logos today. So returning to a book he wrote 17 years ago and deciding what still holds and what quietly stops being true is what we're hopefully trying to explore today. So this is Rough Drafts. David, welcome and I hope I got all of that right. David Airey: Daniel, it's a pleasure. Thank you very much. And yeah, when you put it like that, it sounds like I'm doing pretty well. But I often think of myself just, you know, I go week by week and so far so good. You know, it has been 20 years, but it really doesn't feel like it. Danielle: you Yeah, and if we take you back to the start then, so how did you get into design? What was your journey into design and into the industry? David Airey: Well, I studied art and design at GNVQ level, which I don't think is still available, but it was the equivalent of it was the equivalent of A levels. And so when I was about 15, I left school because I didn't get the grades to get back in to do the subjects that I wanted to do for A level. One of them would have been art because that was one of my favorite subjects. So I went to a college. I studied art and design for four years. That was in Bangor in my hometown. And in the last two years of that, I specialized in graphic design. And then that took me off to Edinburgh, where I studied graphic communications management for three years. And after that, I I took the first job that I could, which was tele sales for a newspaper. And while I was there, I was introduced to somebody who worked at a cancer charity in Edinburgh and they were for somebody who could design their print promotion and handle their website. So I went for an interview and I worked there for my Loma UK in Edinburgh for 18 months. And at that time I'd saved a bit of money so I wanted to go traveling and I did that for a few months and when I came back they hadn't filled my role so I pitched the idea of them becoming my first client which they did. So for the following 18 months or so I worked for three days a week from home for my past employer. I would invoice them at the end of each month. And in the other days of the week, I would spend building my website, writing some blog articles and trying to find other clients. And after 18 months or so working with Myloam UK, they needed to find someone full-time again. So that ended. And ever since then, it's just been a case of moving from one client to the next. would work projects generally last between four and 12 weeks. Danielle: Mm. David Airey: all the projects that I take on have a logo element, whether that's a fresh design or a refinement of some kind. If there isn't that, then I generally decline it because that's the part of design that I love the most. Clients would often come back and hire me for things like packaging or print work, some website markups. don't generally do web development just because I found that when I did that, it took a lot longer than the logo side of things. And one of the aspects of working on a logo project that I love the most is that you can switch from one client to the next in that short timeframe. So you're always learning something fresh. And I get to sketch as well, which I didn't as much with the development. So 20 years on and quite a few clients later, a few books that have been very fortunate to write with the help of a lot of people in the design profession. And yeah, I worked. I still work from home. I have a little garden studio here that's just a few meters from the house. So I get to see my two kids a lot when they're back from school. yeah, I'm fortunate to be in the position that I am. It's going really well. Danielle: And it's interesting because I think a lot of people might have seen that their role was open and just gone back into it and maybe stayed there. But your mindset was, no, no, I'll take you on as a client. And, know, that that's very different to kind of, you know, to kind of going back to just your role and safety of having a role, but to be kind of one eye on the prize, like of working there, but also trying to build your own portfolio in the background. David Airey: A little bit of that probably came when I was working for them full time in employment. I got a footballing injury and I had to spend maybe a week in my apartment in Edinburgh and I was still able to do the work for them and it just made me think more about how, well look I'm doing this from home from them. I could be doing it from home for other people. I didn't need to be physically in their office. So that sowed the seeds as well as a little bit about how my dad, he was self-employed. Danielle: Mm. Okay. David Airey: He's retired now, but he was self-employed for pretty much his whole life. He had a tire business in Belfast and I worked there part time when I was a teenager. And so that instilled a bit of the kind of the independent lifestyle. Whereas he was always going to the same place. Whereas I've moved around. I've worked from wherever my house is and it's been quite a few different places over the years. I'm really glad that my past employer was prepared to become my first client because had they not, then I don't think I would have been able to sustain the time that it took to flesh out my website and attract a stream of inquiries. So that made a massive difference. Danielle: Yeah, and it did. I mean, it's so natural to us now to think, you know, work from home, you know, and work on varieties of clients. But it wasn't the norm back then. Well, 20 years, it just wasn't, you know. So I think you're a little bit ahead of the curve, maybe before, you know, people were able to work in that way. And then, I suppose, as you said, it had offered you the time to flesh out your website and to work on the blog. And that brings us to, I suppose, the book. So before like logo design, love was a book. was probably the starting point was in that blog and those early days. And I suppose what's the earliest version of what's the earliest version of the idea for the book itself? And then how far has it come from what's just come out in the third edition? David Airey: I had a personal blog on my personal domain, DavidEri.com, and I was writing articles there. That's the first website I had where I wrote. And my aim with those articles was to attract clients. So I was writing for potential clients, but the categories were very broad. You know, it could range from marketing to architecture and a lot of things in between. because I knew that it was the logo design that I enjoyed the most then I thought it made sense to to launch another website which was logo design love.com and the name the domain. The name is really because I wanted a logo design and the domain name for search engine rankings and I was reading I love typography.com at the time. John Bordley was he was doing brilliantly with that website and Danielle: Mm-hmm. David Airey: That's where the name kind of came from. So it was about, well, I launched that with about five blog posts. You know, they say don't put something up unless you've got something substantial there. So I wrote five posts. I published it. I shared it. And then about a year. Yeah, it was only it was only live for about a year. Whenever I got an email out of the blue from an acquisitions editor, Nikki McDonald, she she worked in the States and she worked for Pizza Pit. Peach Pit was the subdivision of Pearson. So she asked if I was willing to work with them to write a logo book. I hadn't really been thinking about writing a book, but that email out of the blue just made me think, OK, why not? So we negotiated a contract. It was pretty standard for a first time author. And I worked on that first edition for about eight or nine months or so. And I would send the chapters in Word documents to my copy editor and they would send them back with lots of markups ⁓ because I was terrible at writing. That was a learning lesson. taught me a lesson how bad I was at writing at the time. And then once the markups were made, then I would put it into InDesign and put the logos all beside it and then pass it back. And there'd be some back and forth there with the markups. Danielle: you David Airey: Yeah, they published that for me and it did really well for a design book and I think a lot of that was based, was due to the fact that there was the website behind it, which quite a few people would visit and comment on. The comment section on blog threads back then were a lot more active than they are today with the switch to social media, MySpace and what else? Danielle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. David Airey: MySpace was one of the bigger ones at the time, I think, whenever that came out. So the first edition then led to another book that I wrote with the same publisher, which I didn't know what to write about. But I thought, well, I've been working independently now for a while. Why not just write about the business of design? So that was the work for money design for love title where about half of it is my experience in business and half of it is the experience of other people that I brought on board, which was kind of similar to the logo book. I didn't want it just to be all about my work. I thought it would be more valuable for the reader if there were other people who would contribute. then the second edition came along in 2014. And so a third edition is overdue. was either going to be my publisher got in touch said the sales have been there's a continual decline in sales of a book over time. So the sales were at a point in time where they were either going to reduce the paper quality or they could give the rights of the copyright back to me and then I could self-publish perhaps or do nothing with it or pass it to another publisher perhaps. So I asked them if I updated it, would that keep the paper quality intact? and they said it would. yeah, I thought my design process has changed enough and my outlook on design has changed enough for the past 11 years that yeah, I'll work on a third edition and that was just published, well this month in the UK and Ireland and yeah, a couple of months ago in the States. Danielle: Congratulations and it's great that you held firm on the paper quality. It's the first thing people would afflict to and they notice it. ⁓ David Airey: Thank you. Yes, I do get the occasional Amazon review about some of my books and people complain about whether there's damage to the cover or what have you. And, you know, there'll be a few one star reviews in there because, yeah, I don't have any control really about the print production. can I can ask my publisher for these things, but they then send it out to a third party printer. Danielle: Yeah. Mm. David Airey: things can go wrong there unfortunately but more often than not the copies are in good condition. Danielle: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. And so you've mentioned there, like you've kind of, you know, since the second edition to the third edition, you know, your practice has changed. You're probably your outlook has changed too. What exactly has changed there, do you think? David Airey: Well, when I was writing the first edition, I wanted to kind of establish myself as an authority, whereas now I... Danielle: Mm-hmm. David Airey: I just like to document what I do and then I tell people this is how I do it and this is how other people do it. You can do it differently. You don't need to follow these ⁓ frameworks. So in the past I would have said do this, do that, whereas now it's more just noticing what I do and what works for me and what other people have said works for them. But there are lots of different ways to do what we do. And if somebody says, this is you have to do it like this, then they're probably not the person to listen to. Danielle: Yeah, exactly. And so talk us through your process then if you can, ⁓ in terms of when you start a project, because that's really, suppose, that's what bounce is all about, about the process and the thinking before we get to the final thing. So if you could talk us through that, that would be great. David Airey: Yeah, sure. I generally split my process into four stages. There's research, strategy, design and implementation. And before that will come like a kind of a just a few video calls usually with clients. So clients will generally get in touch with me by sending an email. It's funny. I have my phone number on my website, but the clients that generally call up for emailing are ones that can't afford what I typically charge. So if somebody calls me, it's generally a case of we're probably not going to work together, which is strange. The ones that send an email first are the ones that generally turn into the clients that I get. So a lot of my work is done at my desk, sit in a computer. I'll be replying to emails. I'll schedule a video call with people because most of my clients are overseas as well. It's rare whenever I get to meet a client face to face, which isn't ideal. you the best way is face to face, but I'm not complaining at all because some of the clients that I work with have been brilliant. So there'll be a few video calls and then I'll start on the research, which is really just getting to know where the business wants to be, who their competitors are, what they sell and who they want to sell it to. And the research then informs the The is essentially just having a plan for what the design is going to be before any design work takes place. it's a bit narrower than, it's creative strategy is what I would call it. And it's really just, that's the part where I'll use the research to describe a number of ideas to my client, whether that's describing them in a paragraph. one idea per paragraph on an email or just talking on a call and telling them this is how the design could look and this is how it could flex over time. is how it could look on such and such. And if I describe say three, four or five ideas, then I can immediately get that feedback from the client about what they think is the right direction before we spend time. Danielle: Mm. David Airey: digitizing anything and thinking about colors and shape. So Sorry, that description. Just take a drink here. Throat got dry. Describing the idea like that really speeds up the process and it keeps the client on board because the projects that are the most successful are the ones where the client feels that they have some sense of ownership over the outcome. Then once we've narrowed it down to one, two, three at the most ideas, then I'll spend some time, maybe two or three weeks digitizing the presentation. Danielle: Mmm. David Airey: which will ultimately lead me to present some slides to the client. We'll discuss them together. And then they'll narrow it down to the strongest and the implementation stage. The final one is just where I prepare the files and any guidelines, any guidance that they need and how to roll it out successfully. So those four stages, research, strategy, design, implementation, I think they're fairly standard. across most people who do what I do, visual identity. People might call those phases something slightly different. They might have four or five, five or six stages, but that's worked for me. I've managed to narrow it down over the years to ⁓ what I spelled out in one of my books, Identity Design, The Process, which really does a split into those four sections. Danielle: And yeah, and that piece on the strategy piece where you're giving those paragraphs, you know, and you're describing and you're telling, but you're not showing. ⁓ Do you think that that actually allows the client to actually pick the strongest idea because they're not looking at something saying, I... feel something about that or, know, I'm kind of, sometimes I like that colour more than that colour. You know, the issue of taste might kind of just come into it where it's purely about, you know, the objectives, what you're going to, how you're going to achieve, who you're going to speak to, how you're going to speak to. So within that, like that narrative piece that you give them, they almost are given more than if they were just given a visual. Do think that that works? Yeah. David Airey: Yeah. Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. ⁓ what I will, what I will often do with some of the ideas that I describe as I'll, I'll accompany them with a couple of sketches. So it will be very rough logo sketches just to put something in their heads that they can, they can think, ⁓ it could look like this. I don't want to get into the intricate details of exactly where something's positioned. Danielle: Mm. Mm-hmm. David Airey: It's really just to give an overview and let the client think about it because a lot of clients will get in touch. They really don't know what they want until they see something. Like you said, ⁓ so if a sketch can just put a little, a little snippet of an idea in there, then that can be iterated. You know, there's the refinement stage in the while we're designing where there's more back and forth, but having a A narrower focus when we come to the design really helps. In the past, I wouldn't describe any ideas to clients. would just, I'd spend a couple of weeks digitizing something. I'd make it really polished. I'd add the context. I'd send it to the client and then they'd think, no, this is completely wrong. So it's just wasted time on both sides. If I can, if a sketch helps, then I'll include it. And often, often it does. Danielle: Yeah, yeah. And once you spend so much time digitizing and doing that, you're kind of married to that, right? So you really want the client to pick it then and you're maybe not, you know, maybe you're not seeing your own, you know, your own objectivity in the process, too. And so, so yeah, that can be problematic. And you mentioned there like the phases and they're kind of the standard stages of the project that probably most identity designers kind of follow. David Airey: ⁓ huh. Danielle: Are there any ⁓ stages either in your process or through the revisiting of the book that you've felt are maybe outdated or need to be changed over the last 20 odd years? David Airey: When I wrote the first edition, it was at a time when I would have spent too long digitizing things before getting that client feedback. So that's probably the biggest change is that. I'll spend a lot less time designing before getting some definitive direction from the client. That's really a lesson that I learned the hard way and that the more you keep the client on board throughout the process, generally the better the outcome and the easier it is to reach consensus. At the same time, there are clients who don't want to have a lot of input. They'll come to you and they'll trust you and it can flow. It's almost surprising sometimes whenever I'm just giving my ideas and the clients agreeing to everything. Now, when, there's that level of trust, it's, it's, it's strange. I also find it strange that Some of my clients, they've hired me without talking at all on the phone. It's completely digital. So there'll be emails. ⁓ There'll be emails, and then they'll pay me the 50 % of what I quote. I'll start work. There will be more emails. And that's. Danielle: Mm-hmm. David Airey: I'm conflicted about that way of working. It seems like if I look ahead, that's what it'll be more and more like. But if I can do something that ⁓ counteracts that, having my phone number on my website is a small thing. Having that link to book a video call is another small thing. And then Danielle: Mm-hmm. David Airey: If a client gets in touch with me and they're local, then yes, we'll definitely meet face to face. You know, one of my clients that I've almost finished with is he's in the South of Ireland and he drove to my house here and he spent a couple of afternoons just sitting around the table with me and discussing ideas and that was brilliant. So, that was just the point about how things are going more digital over the years, which isn't ideal, but at same time, if somebody's willing to trust that I can do work for them and they're, they're giving me the money that I can use them to raise my family in the way that I want to do and to live comfortably. there's, yeah, it's, it's, it's brilliant on one side. And then on the other side, I'm thinking, you know, it's, it's not just not ideal. Danielle: No. Yeah, and I mean, I think that conflict of not knowing someone you're a service provider on the end of an email is quite difficult ⁓ in terms of building rapport because there's clients you've worked with time and time again and you can't build a rapport over email. And it's difficult then to kind of to build that relationship with a client, you know, if it's just provide, know, provide me with a logo. Here's the information. ⁓ So, yeah, I can see how you would be conflicted by that. And yeah, it is becoming more and more, you know, through digital means, people are getting in touch and they're not lifting the phone and they're not they're not even asking to meet up if they are locally based, you know. ⁓ Do you think that that kind of impersonal approach is? has any type of effect on the work itself? Like that you don't know these people that, you know, you don't know them intimately almost. Does that have any effect on the work that you do? Do you think? David Airey: I think it must in some way. If you're sitting face to face with somebody, you can read their facial expressions in a way that just doesn't come across on the text messages or an email. there's a different kind of energy between people when you're in the same room or when you're able to see them. So yeah, it must affect things. At the same time, I would never send a client ideas that I didn't think would work. Danielle: Mm. David Airey: would be strong enough for their business. In the past, that's another thing that I did, another mistake I made. I would share too many ideas. I wouldn't narrow it down. The clients are coming to me because I'm the one who is doing this for 20 years now. So they're expecting me to know what I'm doing. And if all I'm doing is sketching as many ideas as possible and then sharing everything, and saying, which do you think, you know, can't choose. It's hard enough choosing one from three, one from fifties and possible. And if there's a few bad ones in the mix, then they'll generally be the ones that are odds on to be chosen. When I when I say I'm conflicted, I think there's a balance there. think the more. The more everything moves online, there'll be people who will want the opposite and. There are people like Katie Coyne of the Creative Boom. started the Studio, which is an online forum with thousands of members now. And she has these in-person meetups around the UK. And Tina Roth Eisenberg of Swiss Miss, she did the same thing with Creative Mornings, where it was just getting people together away from their screens. So there's a balance there. If it swings too far in one way, I think it would go back the other. I think, also think we're seeing that with AI. If everyone has access to the same tools, then there's more importance and emphasis going to be placed on the human touch and the craft behind things rather than just throwing prompts at something. And then again, having to choose one from 50 or one from unlimited ideas. You need someone who's gonna refine that and focus it. Danielle: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's, suppose, your role in a way is to edit all the thoughts of a client into something succinct and deliver an identity that's very simple and easy for them to use. yeah, you're right. I always think of parallel industries or other industries. Like, you know, your accountant doesn't have a session where they kind of say, which amount do want me to put into the revenue? You're right. You're hired as the professional kind of saying. This is my best, you know, best work for you. And this is why I think this works and this is why, you know what I mean? So I think that authority is so important because, you you've you've had all the thinking to get to where it is. And I think like you mentioned there, AI, like with AI, you can prompt something into existence, but it doesn't mean it means anything. You know what mean? It just is there. And that. David Airey: Mm-hmm. Danielle: The simplest, the steps that you've described in your process have led you through and into a direction that probably where you started from and where you ended is very different anyway, because you've had to make so many decisions along the way. Whereas if you just kind of throw a prompt out there, it is just going to create more internet slop, you know. And I think it's really important that ⁓ the design community tells that story to clients such that they know that, you know, again, it's always about, I suppose for me, I always think it's always about explaining and showing the value of design and designers, you know, in practice. So it's really it is really important. ⁓ But we are where we are, I guess. And AI is helping do some of the, you know, some of the repetitive admin role kind of things. But I think, yeah, that's where it should stay. David Airey: Yeah, a story that I have a recent client of mine is one of the largest AI companies, know, multi-million, multi-million dollar backed. And they came to me for their logo. So AI companies, they know that there's a limit there and what and people hire people. No, if you spend your time studying and learning the craft, then Okay, there might be a business owner or two who's going to say, I'm just going to do this myself, but that would be the same person that probably wouldn't be your client anyway. Business owners have enough to on their plate. They don't need to be learning design as well. So I think there'll always be, there'll always be room for designers and especially those who set themselves apart by just giving it more of a human touch. If more and more is moving toward machines, then Yes, stand out by going the opposite direction. Danielle: Yeah, that's so important, doesn't it? And it's like, think people will we'll get to a point where there'll be so much digital content that no one will trust the digital content anymore. And they'll just want to speak to a person and just be able to have that discussion and that conversation about whatever it is, but directly with a person. they won't believe in the tech anymore. I think we will get to a point at some stage, we'll get to a point where that is the case. David Airey: Yeah. Danielle: ⁓ But in terms of the projects maybe that you've worked on, I'd love to talk a little bit maybe about an abandoned direction. ⁓ know, so there's those ideas, not the 50 sketches, but the curated two, maybe three ideas that you can create and present. And I just wonder, is there ⁓ any ideas that... ⁓ have gotten caught that you thought one of these were these definitely should have been the ones that were selected and how did you handle that? David Airey: I wouldn't go as far as to say that these were definitely the ones that should be selected because ultimately it's up to the client. But I would have a preference and there'll be times whenever what I prefer isn't the one that's used. ⁓ One of those is a stationary company in the United Arab Emirates called Maxi. And the idea, I pitched a couple of ideas and Danielle: Yeah. Mm. David Airey: one of them was chosen, but my preference is the one that I added to my portfolio because I thought it was stronger. I thought it was more distinctive and that's not always what the client wants though. Sometimes the client wants to fit in more than they want to stand out. A lot of the expertise of a client can be behind their brand name. So people already are Danielle: Hmm. Mm. David Airey: people are already aware of what they do and they don't need to shout it with something that is very different from the norm. I think it was Michael Johnson of Johnson Banks who he wants, he wants shared the process of delivering three different ideas to the client. And the first idea would be very safe. The third idea would be way out there. And then the middle idea would be slightly closer to the out there idea, further away from the safe. And then you want the client to pick the third idea, the one that's really distinctive. But if they don't, they're more likely to choose the middle one than the real safe one. And I think that was a good way to do it. So there'll always be a left and a right that I'm talking about with clients. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. David Airey: each different idea could help with a different business direction, where they want to go in terms of the impression that their future customers want to have of them. I think it's very valuable to add the work to your portfolio that you want more of. So if you want more distinctive projects and that's an idea that a client rejected, then just use a distinctive one. Because when you start out in design, especially, you're not going to have this big body of work. So a lot of the projects that you have in your portfolio are going to be quite fictitious, even student work. You could put that in there at the start. It doesn't necessarily have to be for a client. ⁓ You just need to back that up with the clients that come to you in terms of your professionalism and how you handle the process, which I think I've seen people fall behind a bit there. They show a lot of really polished work, but they're not too good at the back and forth and leading the guiding the clients from the start to the finish. Danielle: Hmm. David Airey: Yeah, that Maxi project was a, that was a, an interesting one. Another one that I've included in the third edition of the logo design love book is, for a client in Australia called ANZ Fisheries for Australia, New Zealand fisheries. They worked as a fish and a wholesale fish market. And they had an existing idea of the family run business. So there was the dad and the mom and then their two sons were taking over and they were quite married to the idea of the existing logo but they wanted to change it somehow and the sons were thinking more about potentially changing it entirely so I pitched a new idea to them. Their existing logo had two fish in a circle and my revised idea was a ⁓ a little bit of a softened approach where it still had the two fish, but they were very stylized, very abstract. And the fish looked like waves in some way too. So I've got these two fish, the waves and then the circle. And I preferred my idea, but the client, they were happier with a much more subtle revision of what they had. Which it's like I said, it's the client's choice. I'm not going to share something with them that I don't think works. So my revision of their idea, I think it was better than what they had. But my idea that took it further, I thought that was the best way to go. But I can be wrong. And so I'm not going to say to the client, no, you were wrong in choosing that. They were right in hiring me. Danielle: Yeah. Yeah, but it actually, you know, but it's such a way of thinking that, you know, if you actually think obviously, you know, put the work out there that you want to get back, but actually putting the work that you think was probably about a direction like the Maxi project, you know, putting that out there, it's more likely to fulfill you in terms of getting more of that type of work. Like that's that's quite brave. You know, we ever. contacted by the client and said, Hey, why are you putting that out there? That's not what we went with. David Airey: Well, some years after that, the client did come back and they were asking for ⁓ some additional work for a new sub brand. And I prepared a proposal. I sent that off. I don't know whether it was the fact that my quote was probably more than they were expecting, or it was a case of them looking at my portfolio after sending that email and having that chat and then thinking, what's going on? So I'm not sure. Danielle: you David Airey: A client has never said, why are you showing this when that's not what you gave us? Because the ideas that I would share on my portfolio, they'll always be something that the client would have seen anyway. And so I think they will understand. OK, he's using that. That's fair enough. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. you know, they'll have to I guess they'll have to understand when they see it there. But do you think that that, you know, those those I suppose those conversations, you know, can maybe upset a client if they kind of, know, they they if they've picked something and then you're saying this is on the portfolio. David Airey: Thank Danielle: would it upset the relationship as in like that example they've come back to you. But do you think that's a consensus that they might, you know, might get a bit upset going, ⁓ he he thinks he was right. And it's an ego thing. Do you know what mean? Like a little bit more than you just putting out the best work. David Airey: Yeah, I know what you mean. I suppose in that case, thankfully, the majority of my clients, they come to me and we work together for four weeks or eight weeks. And then I deliver what they need in order to not come back to me. So it's always my aim to design a logo or an identity that's going to last for at least a decade, ideally the duration of a business. So if they do come back to me. Danielle: Yeah. it. David Airey: Which a lot of my clients, they do come back and they'll need something in addition to the logo. ⁓ I've never been in a situation where the client hasn't been happy with what I've shown them a portfolio. So they're either keeping that to themselves or yeah, they know what the score is. Danielle: you And are there any logos that you look back on now and you think, ⁓ God, I'd love to redesign that or, know, tweak it or change it. And not because the client has asked you, but just because the way you work now is different. David Airey: Yeah, there are client, are, are logos that have designed, you know, 10, 15, nearly 20 years ago. And I would look at them and think, ⁓ I could, could do that better. Whether that's the type design or the spacing between, you know, the logo elements or the colors or yeah. And I think that's normal. I think for a designer to look at their old work and think that's brilliant, then it shows in a way that they're continually growing because I'll always want my next project or the one that I'm currently working on to be my best. as long as I can, if I can look at my previous work and I can see that there's a gradual improvement there, then it's a much healthier way to evaluate my growth. Danielle: Mm-hmm. David Airey: than to continually compare myself to the best studios in the world, which is very easy to do whenever social media plays a role in what we do. And we see project after project as award-winning work. And we're thinking, why aren't I as good as this? So look to your past work and notice that you're getting better. I think that's a healthy way to... to be in the profession. Danielle: I think it is a really good point because you can get lost down the rabbit hole of glossy portfolios that, you know, there's a little bit of homogeneity sometimes, if I'm honest, between studios where you're kind of like, where's the hand in this? Where is the distinction? Where did this come from? And just a kind of maybe a glossiness. And yeah, it is about just being aware of what other people are doing, but not to be led by it necessarily, because I think it's important to kind of define your own practice and, you know, take your own journey with the clients that you have and try and get the clients that you want. In terms of your career of like 20 years and, you know, you're working with clients maybe who don't really know what they want with briefs that maybe need to be completely redefined, reimagined when you get them. and then dealing with clients that maybe don't give great feedback and all of that kind of, know, you know, push and pull and that negotiation piece. And how do you, I suppose, how do you deal with that gap between what the client thinks they need or want and actually what they need itself? Like, have you got experience of that? David Airey: Yes, there's one project that comes to mind. was one of the ones in my very early years in business. I worked on a logo for a landscape gardening firm and the initial meetings, they went really well. But when it came to presenting my work, the process kind of fell apart. And what I didn't know was that the husband and wife team, they had already formed ⁓ quite a clear picture. of the design that they wanted. And they hadn't mentioned it to me in the hope that I might create something that changed their mind. But their attachment to their own idea, it was already kind of cemented by the time that they saw mine. So the research, the brainstorming, the sketching that I did, none of it was really relevant to where they already were. So what I should have asked at the outset was whether they had any existing ideas about what the design should look like. Not because I would have simply executed their vision, but more knowing what they imagined that would have changed how I framed everything that followed. I could have presented their idea in several different ways and then shown the strongest option alongside alternatives. But I didn't ask that and that's One of the questions that I do generally ask in initial chats with clients, potential clients, that, you know, is there any design that you're thinking of? Have you seen something? I think that's worth doing. Danielle: Mm-hmm. And that doesn't like close down the conversation or narrow it too much. It allows you still the freedom to go broad. David Airey: It does. mean, the only limit on the directions that you try to take are they're self-imposed. I you can listen to the client and the more focused they help, the more focused their thoughts on a potential direction, then it generally speeds up the process, but it doesn't stop you from showing something completely different if you think it's worthwhile. during the course of your sketching, let the ideas take you as far as you want them. can be very focused and you can just deliver something that's along the lines of what the client's asking for, but you can also just play. And while you're not sat at your desk, while you're taking a walk or doing something completely different, you'll still be thinking about it. And there are different associations that can come from seemingly nowhere. And if you can put that on a sketch form and just run it past the client. Look, I'm going to deliver you something that's going to be strong and in line with what you're expecting, but I just wanted to show you this as well. Just on the off chance, you know, I thought it could be worth, could be worth having a chat about. So yeah, it often helps when a client focuses things like that, but it doesn't have to limit the alternative ideas that you pitch. Danielle: Yeah, because it's interesting. It's an interesting kind of way of describing it, almost like, you know, going inside their mental model of what the thing might be or, you know, looking from building from the inside of their starting point outwards, maybe, and holding the distinction between it's where they they start there, maybe where they started from their starting point, but it might not be the end point of the project. And bringing them on that piece of a journey maybe helps. if they're really wedded to an idea that is like, is this is my idea. It's on the back of a napkin. I drew it, you know, and it's that kind of that kind of they're really, you know, they're sold into it, but they they could be guided and brought to a better, more stronger conclusion if you kind of allow that to happen. David Airey: Yeah, clients will generally hire me for either one or two design directions and rarely three, but sometimes and a lot of that comes down to their budget because of the time that it takes to digitize the ideas and put them into the contextual format that the presentation has. So I'd mentioned previously about the left and right, know, if left is their idea, then right can be completely opposite, but still in tune with where they want to take their business. Danielle: Yeah. And then going back to the books and the writing, you mentioned your first draft was, you you're working back and forth with the copy editor and you had lots of markups. But like, you know, you wouldn't you couldn't tell. You can't tell when you read your books, your blog. And it's genuinely a pleasure to read. ⁓ That obviously didn't come that naturally to you, but what has helped is it just practice or what has helped with that over time? David Airey: I definitely think it's practice. There's something about the act of writing that it helps you think when you speak. It's different because you're thinking about what you're going to say at the same time as saying it almost, which is why I don't think I'm that great a speaker. But when I write and then I can look at the words and I can rethink them and edit and continually edit until the fluff is gone and it's just exactly what I want to say, then writing is a way of thinking that It just helps you know what you want to say much better than it does whenever you're having a conversation with somebody and you can say something that you regret or that you didn't quite mean or you couldn't explain something in the way that you wanted to that you might have been able to had you just thought for an extra few minutes and that's where writing is important. When it comes to the design projects, I would say to my clients that the writing is as valuable as the imagery. So that I would always encourage them to invest in their copywriting. Copywriters play a big role in visual identity design because imagery can only take you so far. It's the words. It's the words in there that really add meaning. Danielle: And I think as well, I remember when I was in college, like there was so many books in the library, compendiums of look books. was just so much, you know, and you'd think that there'd be so little writing to contextualize work. was just, you know, a compendium of beautiful work. So when you do find the kind of design writing. I think it's really important to, you know, to have a go to source if it's online, if it's a books or libraries, whatever it is, to see how other people talk about design in order for you to be able to evaluate it, maybe describe it, discuss it and critically, maybe engage with design beyond this kind of the surface graphics, you know, the Instagram. pictures of greatness and, and, you know, the beehives, polished portfolios. So I think it's, so valuable. And I wonder, is it, you know, not to say AI is taking over everything. I wonder, people actually investing the time as much as maybe before in trying to gather your thoughts into some succinct reflection on your own work? Because I think the reflective piece of, know, how did I do that project? What worked? What didn't work? What could I do better? How could I change? What did I learn? That piece is is so valuable, but it doesn't just happen, I should say, in a conversation with someone. If you can jot that down, I think it can really ⁓ become an embedded part of your practice. So I think it's so valuable. And I think I don't know that there's always time for that ⁓ in professional practice. I wonder, how do you how do you kind of reflect on the work that you're doing and kind of, you know, take that time and distance from it. David Airey: I probably overthink the work in that I'm a bit of an overthinker in general. What I mean by that is after a project finished, I still wonder what I could have done better. And there'll be the odd occasion when I'll deliver files to the client and I might be playing around still after that. experimenting and I'll resend the files because I've picked up on something. I'm critical of myself. But in terms of formalizing some sense of reflection, I don't really have that. I don't have questions that I would ask myself after each project. The only question that I would really ask in that regard is once everything's wrapped up, I would ask clients what they thought about the process of working with me and did they think anything might have been improved upon. So I would ask for my clients feedback there because they're the ones. who would know they would be the ones who could give me more valuable feedback than I could myself. Because it's hard to see our own imperfections when we're doing the same thing for so many different clients, except for the fact that you can look back at your previous project from a year or two or five or 10, and you can see how you've come along. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. David Airey: So that would be it really, just asking the client, how did you think everything went? Danielle: Yeah, I'm just it just on on the language. One of the standard words on your website when I was I was going through your website in preparation for today was I use the word enduring. So, you know, when you describe what you make, so enduring marks and enduring logos, has your definition of what enduring is or means, has that changed over time? you think? David Airey: It's still a case that I want the logos that are designed to last for a duration of the client's business, whether that's 10 years, 50 years, 100 years. I would never say to a client, this is going to last you 100 years. But it's why I design logos with usually three things in mind. I want them to be simple, distinctive, and relevant. Danielle: Yeah. David Airey: And there's a balance there between the simplicity and the distinction. can't, you can't sell a square or a circle to everybody. Not everyone's going to buy that. It's not going to work. So you need to add enough detail to make it distinctive from the competitors. But at the same time, the simpler the idea is in form and in meaning, the longer it's going to last because often strongest logos are the ones that are as abstract as possible so they they don't say what a company does if you think of if you think of the most literal logo say for a cleaning company and you've got a man with a brush and then if you think about the most One of the most abstract logos that comes to mind is the National Geographic rectangle, the yellow outline rectangle, which at the start that wouldn't have meant anything really, but over years, every association that somebody has with National Geographic, it gets embedded into that shape so that whenever you see it again, then you remember whether that's a positive or negative association. Danielle: Mm. David Airey: It was Sagi Haviv who I think he first said, or Michael Beirut, a logo is essentially an empty vessel. Over time, it gets filled with every association that somebody has with a brand. it can be a challenge to let a client know that at the outset, because they're expecting to see something and to think immediately. Yes, this is right. But another thing that Saggy Haveve would say is it's never love at first sight or it's rarely love at first sight. The Nike logo, example, the Phil Knight, the CEO, he didn't like it at the start, but he thought it might grow on him. And now if you put that one symbol on a t-shirt, you know, can elevate the value by 100%. So yeah, there's Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. David Airey: I would always go back to those three things, simplicity, distinction, and relevance. And that's what I keep in mind whenever I'm designing. Danielle: And I suppose it's kind of it's when you're presenting it then for the client, you're kind of almost telling them that, you know, maybe your first reaction isn't going to be the most reliable reaction to this because it your your your your connection to the logo may, should and will change over time. So that's actually attention that is really difficult to kind of, I suppose, reconcile to kind of tell the client that they're not going to see it necessarily, you know, but to maybe trust the process. And it's a bit back to what you were saying earlier about, you know, you're you're in flow, almost designing and they trust you and trust what you're actually showing them as work because that level of trust has been. has been brought to bear through the relationship. And over time, you know, their, you know, their love of the logo that they selected will hopefully change. And, know, it will mean more to more people over time, too. But it's a really ⁓ tenuous relationship and it's a tricky argument, doesn't it, to make to kind of say, I don't trust your taste because you might not like the one that you should go with. But it and, you know, even that idea of It's a matter of taste. That's a tricky one, too. know, so there's a lot of tensions at play when they're selecting just to put the client's hat on for a moment. They're not maybe sure which option to go with. They're being guided. They have their own set of values. There's a lot at play in that decision of option one, two or three. Isn't there really like when we, you know, we might say, well, they should clearly go with option one. But, you know. David Airey: haha Danielle: There are a lot of tensions and internal arguments at play there too. David Airey: Yes, absolutely. The of a committee can often play a huge role in what gets chosen at the outset or the outcome. ⁓ Even if your client is an independent, it's just one person and people say that designing for a committee can be a challenge, but there's always a committee of some kind, whether that's Danielle: Yeah. David Airey: somebody's husband or somebody's wife or somebody's friend or neighbor. There's always going to be some external influence on the client you're not aware of that you're not seeing because you deliver them a presentation and I never want them to decide immediately. I'll always say at least sleep on it. Come back to it again tomorrow because often your opinion can change over a short time. There's a challenge there, definitely. You don't know what's going on on the client side. You can't be with them all the time. you've just got to describe your idea in the most fitting way for their business and add some rationale to every decision, whether that's the color, the choice of typeface, the style of brand gallery that you're Danielle: Mm. David Airey: you're putting in there, the pattern work, the layout. If you can add some meaning to your description that's relevant to the business, then it makes it a lot easier to sell the idea. Danielle: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And final question for me, this might be a tricky one ⁓ to answer. So if you were creating Logo Design Love today and you weren't revising it, you were just basically starting from scratch, what would the first chapter be about? David Airey: Well, the first chapter in the first edition was It was a series of photographs that I took over the first 30 minutes after waking up. It was kind of a performative thing where I'm saying, look at all these logos around us. They play a part in our lives that we don't often realize how ubiquitous they are. And I kept the same kind of idea in this third edition, except rather than just Rather than this performance of photographing 30 things, it was like a logo a minute. I opened the third edition with the chapter that we're still surrounded by logos. And rather than these photographs, I just described the scene where I was walking through Belfast and noticing things, whether that was a wordmark on the side of a delivery van or logo on a shopping bag, somebody standing beside me with ⁓ a coffee cup with a logo on it or the signage above a window. So it was more about just observing where I was and how The logo is a small thing. It's like the tip, it's like a cherry on the tip of the iceberg, but it's the thing that most people will see when or think of when they're remembering what they did with the brand or the associations that they have. So there's an importance there. And I just thought that this observation of walking people through my day in Belfast and thinking, look, it's everywhere. We might not notice or comment on it all the time, but they play a part in our lives. I kept that same idea in the book and it's just a little less performative and more observational this time around. Danielle: Yeah, I think that's really, really nice. Kind of, you know, it's kind of that that nuance change to telling people, you know, this is how you do it and this is this is where they are. They're everywhere to just kind of almost quietly observing that this has happened has happened over the last X amount of years and they are part of our lives and they're kind of the logos in the wild now, you know, as you as you navigate your space. ⁓ But look, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful conversation. I'm thrilled to have had you on the podcast. Thanks a million. David Airey: It's a pleasure, Danielle. Thanks very much for inviting me. Danielle: You're welcome. We can stop that there.