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Commitment and Connection in Open Relationships · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Hello, everyone. Welcome to gay men going deeper, a podcast by the gay men's brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host today, Michael Diorio. And joining me is Doctor Israel Martinez.
• 0:16
  Speaker B: Hi, everyone.
• 0:16
  Speaker A: We're talking about commitment and connection in open relationships, and we'll be exploring questions like, how does someone identify their ideal relationship style? What is a relationship anchor, and how do we find it? How can we challenge ingrained beliefs about monogamy and consensual non monogamy as a secure, viable option for long term relationships? What we want you, our viewer and listener, to get out of this episode is to get a fresh perspective on relationship styles and a deeper understanding of how consensual non monogamy can be a secure, fulfilling option for you. This episode is ideal for anyone questioning traditional monogamy, exploring consensual non monogamy, or wanting to challenge their own expectations around love and commitment. All right, this is a wonderful topic that I've talked about before, but it has been quite a few years since I've dived into this. So joining me today is our special guest, Doctor Israel Martinez. He is a licensed clinical social worker, certified sex therapist, and coach that specializes in in the LGBTQ, ethically non monogamous, and kink bdsm communities. Thank you so much for joining us today. Israel, as it's your first time on the show, I do like to give the audience a chance to get to know you a little bit. So why don't you tell us a little bit about how you got into this line of work?
• 1:33
  Speaker B: Sure. Very happy to be here. Thank you, Michael. I was working in Manhattan in corporate America in the early two thousands, and I was looking for a therapist that was out as part of the queer community. And I had a lot of trouble finding someone who focused specifically in that community who was out themselves. And so I decided I wanted to be that person for people. And so I went back to school and started focusing on the queer community. And the more work I was doing with the queer community, the more I was seeing that people were in consensually non monogamous relationships. And that was in a space that I was particularly familiar with. I became more familiar with it as I was seeing clients. And so that was part of the reason why I sought out my certification in sex therapy, because I really wanted to have a sense of how those relationships worked and provide my clients with some guidance that was not just sort of for my other clients yeah, well.
• 2:42
  Speaker A: It'S very important work. So thank you for doing it. Thank you for reaching out and wanting to share your expertise with our audience today.
• 2:49
  Speaker B: So it's my pleasure. I'm looking forward to it.
• 2:51
  Speaker A: All right, so for our audience, first of all, if you're new here, please do subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, we'd love it if you would subscribe and leave us a review that helps us get into the ears of people who need us. All right, let's talk about why I wanted to do this episode today. Many people that I have seen in my personal life and as a coach have a lot of misconceptions about consensual non monogamy. By the way, I personally use consensual non monogamy. I sometimes shorten it by saying open relationships. So for me, if you hear me say one of those, it's synonymous for me. There's a lot of misconceptions out there. And some of the common things I hear is it's just about having multiple partners. It's not a real relationship. It's just an excuse to cheat, doomed to fail, and jealousy is going to ruin the relationship. So there's no point in even treading that way. So these are some of the common misconceptions I hear. Now, the reality is I have been in an open relationship. By the way, my last relationship was open, and I've also been in monogamous relationship. So I can speak to you from being inside both of them. The reality was, for the open relationship, it was really a wonderful, challenging lesson in building trust, creating security for myself and for each other in that relationship, and really building a deep connection for me and my partner. That worked for both of us. It allowed me to get a chance to know myself on so many different levels. What I want, how I communicate, what my needs are, what my triggers are. I really allowed that all to come up for me so I could work on it. It allowed me to really work on communication. Anyone who's been in open relationships know that it's a lot of communication, sometimes to the degree of, like, over communicating at times, at least for me. And then, of course, it allowed me to understand better my sexual and emotional intimacy needs and where I wanted my partner to fit into that, and maybe where I wanted to seek intimacy outside of that. So it really just gave me a chance to get to know myself. Now, the other thing is, unfortunately, what I see is a lot of gay couples specifically attempt open relationships for what I would call all the wrong reasons. And so they go about it very haphazardly. And as I say, when you do something sloppily, you're going to get a sloppy result. You're going to get a sloppy outcome. And it breaks my heart, because there is a way to do this and to organize this and to structure your relationship in a way that is not sloppy and very intentional and very conscious, and that brings all of your needs and worries and fears to the table. Then you work on them with your partner. Partner, and then you have a much higher rate of success, in my opinion. And so that's why we're here today. Today we're going to cover some foundational concepts that will give you a deeper understanding of your own needs and desires around relationships in general. And so our goal today is to help set yourself up and your relationship for success. Because the truth is, open relationships, consensual non monogamy, is not for everyone. And that's okay. We are not here to, like, try to convince you to do it. I think what we want to do here today is give you some tools, resources, questions that you can ask yourself that will really, like I said, set you up for success. Often I coach couples as well in my coaching. And when couples show up in the consult, they are desperately trying to manage all these, what I would call symptoms of the issue without actually getting to the root cause of the issue. And so I know that what Israel does and what I do, we really like to get to the root cause. And if you're someone who's listening to this, who is exploring openness or thinking about it, this episode is going to be really helpful for you because you're going to do a lot of this work before jumping in. And even if you are already in an open relationship, that you're still going to have a lot of benefit from this conversation. One more thing, on a personal note. I have been in monogamous relationships and I've loved them. I've also been in an open relationship. That was my last one, and I've loved that one as well. And I'm currently single and dating. So inevitably, this topic has been coming up on my dates, you know, as we get to know each other, one of those common questions is, what kind of relationship do you want, especially as you're getting a bit more serious. And so this topic is actually quite relevant for me in my own personal life, which is why I'm really excited to have the conversation. Have Israel here. He has agreed to share some of his favorite exercises with us. And so I'll be the test subject, and I encourage you, the audience, to follow along and have a. Have a fun ride with us here. Let's jump in. My first question is, how does one even know what their ideal relationship style is?
• 7:02
  Speaker B: Sure, some caveats. I'll say that like most things in life, it's fluid, right? So it can definitely change over time depending on what's going on for that person situationally, personally, internally. And I'll ask some questions here to help you figure that out. And to your point before, about being able to go in depth, obviously, within the time we have here, we won't be able to really go in depth or how I would really explore with someone in session. However, you'll get sort of a taste of that. With my clients who have been in monogamous and consensually non monogamous relationships, I tend to ask some questions about each of those types or relationships in terms of those clients and their experiences of each. And these questions that I'm going to give you come from Kathy Libraria's book the Jealousy Workbook, which is a book that's specific to consensual non monogamy.
• 8:05
  Speaker A: Cool.
• 8:05
  Speaker B: So the first question I tend to want to ask in terms of the monogamous relationship that you experienced is, did you feel safe and secure due to the sexual exclusivity in this relationship?
• 8:20
  Speaker A: I would say I felt safe and secure, but not because of the sexual exclusivity.
• 8:24
  Speaker B: Okay. So that in itself did not add for you a sense of feeling, oh, this is something that I'm bound to and committed and feel safe in. The sex piece wasn't part of that.
• 8:34
  Speaker A: That wasn't a big part of it. I would say no.
• 8:36
  Speaker B: Okay. When in that monogamous relationship, monogamous relationships, did you struggle with sexual and romantic desires toward other people while in that relationship?
• 8:49
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 8:51
  Speaker B: Do you mind sharing a little bit about what those struggles were like?
• 8:55
  Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. The one relationship I'm thinking back to was my most recent monogamous relationship. And I think the struggle was given where I live, given the lifestyle I have, where I am very much involved with gay spaces, queer spaces. There was a lot of opportunity there for fun and flirting, and I'm a friendly, flirty guy, and I like my fun. And so there were times when I remember thinking, oh, I like this opportunity that's here being presented to me, and I kind of want to play with it, even if it's just flirting. And my partner at the time was just not okay with that. So it became an area of contention at times.
• 9:29
  Speaker B: Did you then find it difficult to try to change your behavior, or was there any attempt to change the behavior, or did you feel, this is who I am?
• 9:39
  Speaker A: So, yeah, it got to a point where it got frustrating for me because, I mean, I would obviously honor the relationship I was in, but I wasn't happy or I got resentful. I would try to be like, this is just flirting, or it's just dancing on a dance floor. This is just what we do. And I would invite him to even join. Like, I tell people, hey, that's my boyfriend over there. Like, he's super hot. And they'd be like, oh, yeah, he's hot, too. He should come join us. And, you know, he just wasn't, it just wasn't his thing. It was just a hard no for him. Yeah.
• 10:05
  Speaker B: Okay. Thank you for that. So sort of related to what you're sharing is this question of did you feel you were able to be honest with your partner about your feelings and needs and true self?
• 10:18
  Speaker A: Yes, we had many conversations about it where I was honest about how I felt about it, how I saw it. We just didn't see that the same way. It was very clear he was seeing it one way and I was seeing it a different way, and we just didn't see eye to eye on those kinds of examples.
• 10:31
  Speaker B: But it's great that you were able to feel that you could share who you are and you could share what your needs were, even if they weren't necessarily compatible. And then I'll have a couple of questions about when you were in that one consensually non monogamous relationship. Did you feel a sense of freedom in that relationship that might be absent in your monogamous relationships?
• 10:55
  Speaker A: Absolutely. It was the opposite in a good way. So in those situations, my partner and I at the time, that was part of our agreement. It was like, yeah, if we're out at a club and someone's dancing with you, you want to have a little makeup session while you're dancing? Have at it. Have fun. No problem. No worries. So that was part of our agreement. And, yeah, that, that freedom that came with, that was so, so nice. Like, I just didn't have to worry, look over my shoulder if someone was talking to me like before, I remember being like, oh, shit, he's going to see me talking to somebody and I'm going to get in trouble. In the new relationship, I was like, this is great. You know, there was no, no trouble to get into yeah.
• 11:28
  Speaker B: And I can see that being so freeing not having to worry about that. So would you say then that somehow it just feels natural for you to pursue friendships, romantic relationships, concurrently with more than one person?
• 11:43
  Speaker A: I think, for me, I've done a lot of thinking about this. I love that question. Where I'm at now is, I like the option to be there, but I don't have to take it.
• 11:51
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 11:51
  Speaker A: If I'm in an open relationship, does it mean that I'm every day, every week looking for other people? It just means if the option is there and if the opportunity arises, I want to be able to explore it, so I don't need to. It's not like something I'm actively searching for if I'm with somebody, but I just like that it's there.
• 12:09
  Speaker B: Okay. I'm curious. I know it was just one relationship that was consensually non monogamous. And so I hear you're speaking to the flirting and the dance floor. Were you also looking to or able to pursue other relationships outside of that relationship?
• 12:28
  Speaker A: The way that we had set it up was. No. The way that we had set it up was the openness was really just about sex, transactional, kind of on hookup sex, just that kind of stuff. But we. We had a hard line, both of us, and we both agreed to this, that we weren't looking for, like, an actual emotional connection with somebody else. And so we had rules around that, like, you know, if you want to have your fun, have at it. In terms of building a relationship, like, emotional relationship with somebody, that's where we both agreed to draw the line.
• 12:54
  Speaker B: Okay. And then just for the sake of sharing for the listeners and watchers, I already feel like I have a very good sense of the answers to these three questions, and they speak more to maybe how being in a consensually non monogamous relationship might play out for someone. So one would be, do you feel able to manage your time and energy in meeting the needs of more than one relationship? And so for you, Michael, this wouldn't necessarily be the case, because it's not necessarily full blown relationships that you're having to manage, but it. It is one thing to. If someone feels as if they may want to enter open relationship, that they should make sure that they pay attention to. Right. To actually have the capacity to be in more than one relationship, and then are you able to be honest with your partners about other relationships and meet their needs for disclosure of important information? So that may still apply to you in terms of you are having relationships with other people in that sense, in terms of sex. And so are you able to be honest about those relationships? And it seems basically what you're saying about your monogamous relationships and your consensually non monogamous relationship, that honesty is a big part of those relationships and you do work diligently to make that happen. And then it also seems that you would generally be successful in keeping agreements that you make with your partners, which is a big part of consensual non monogamy are agreements. Right. Making sure that you are on the same page. And I would say for monogamous relationships as well. I've worked with monogamous couples who had very different ideas of what infidelity meant and, but especially with consensually non monogamous couples relationships, it makes sense to worry about agreements.
• 14:48
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, our Yden a consensually non mongol relationship, there's going to be different agreements and different guidelines and, you know, even around things like communication, some couples have a, you know, don't ask, no tell policy and that's okay with them. And other couples, they want to know all the details. That is something that we, we negotiated. I, and one that I didn't want to know the details. I thought it was fun and I thought it was cool. I kind of got off on it a little bit. So I think that was kind of hot for me. But I do know that sometimes, like, people witnessing it or hearing about it, they can't, they're like, okay, go do it, but I don't want to know about it.
• 15:21
  Speaker B: Right. That's a lot of work I do with my couples who come in is figuring out what is their comfort level in terms of knowing or time on their own. Then within the agreements, as I mentioned before, things are fluid. So we even build in a timing in terms of when agreements are going to be revisited. And we also work in a way that if someone does go against an agreement, how they're going to bring it up, a safe way for them to bring it up because it happens. And I feel we call them agreements and not necessarily rules because they are flexible in terms of let's discuss if we need to make a change or this is no longer working for us or we learn something about ourselves when it comes to outside relationships. So let's keep, it's an organic sort of document and let's stay on top of making sure that we are true to one another.
• 16:23
  Speaker A: I love that. And I love the way these processes are very proactive and intentional and it kind of builds room for all of these things. I think that, to me, is the correct way to do it. That's going to, again, set you up for success. Not to say it's guaranteed, but I think you're more likely having done all this work, having asked all these questions ahead of time, you are really setting yourself up for success in the long.
• 16:44
  Speaker B: Run and seeing is this something. So someone might have this idea that consensually non monogamy is exactly what they're looking for. And then when they talk about the agreements and maybe seeing what their partner or partners may be able to do, then not liking that and wanting to really make sure. So it allows us to really make sure that this is something that they are able to commit to. So, like you said, Michael, setting them up for increased chance of success.
• 17:11
  Speaker A: Yeah. Israel, I know that we can't go, like, super in depth and that your processes are, you know, to be done kind of in session. But generally speaking, if we can, can you give maybe some points on people that may, the work essential non monogamy may not be suited for them?
• 17:29
  Speaker B: Sure. So I would say if you really struggle with a sense of self worth and that then consensual nominal may be really difficult for you to be able to handle on a daily basis. So I've seen some of my clients struggle because there is just so much jealousy, anxiety, looking to please, and so not necessarily deciding to go into consensual non monogamy for themselves, but maybe more to keep a relationship or to keep partner happy. And so I feel that there's really a need for some work to happen around self worth so that you really are showing up for your partner, so you really are getting your needs met. I would say it's difficult to be in any relationship, even monogamous, if you are struggling with your self worth. And within monogamy, it may be easier for you to get that one person to sort of meet your needs or feel satisfied or not have so much exposure to being hurt or having to build self confidence. So that's one area historically, I've seen with my clients who have struggled and really enjoy and be there for other partners in an open relationship.
• 19:04
  Speaker A: Totally well said. And I think for people that are in that monogamous relationship, it's easier to hide your self esteem or self worth issues in a monogamous relationship because they're just not likely to come out, or that relationship could end up having its own set of obstacles and drawbacks that can be very codependent and all these other things that could happen, especially if, like, they are relying on that other person for their self worth, and they're pretty much abdicating all the responsibility to create their own sense of self worth because they're getting it from this partner that can create a lot of bad situations down the future or down in the road, right?
• 19:40
  Speaker B: Definitely. I love what you said toward the beginning of this podcast in terms of the open relationship, providing you an opportunity to really, like, learn about yourself. Right? So even if you decide the rest of your relationships are monogamous, at least you have that one opportunity to really push yourself, to learn more about yourself and be challenged. And I think that that's a great thing that does come out of negotiating and making yourself vulnerable to numerous people.
• 20:10
  Speaker A: Okay, great. Thank you, Israel. So let's just take a moment for our audience and viewers and listeners out there. I would love to hear from you guys. So if you're watching us on YouTube, feel free to go into the comments and let us know. What are your thoughts so far? Based on what Israel has shared here today, do you think that you would be a good candidate for consensual non monogamy, or do you think you're more of a monogamous kind of person? So feel free to put that in the comments, or also feel free to share what you think your relationship style might be. If anyone out there has been in my situation where you've done both consensual non monogamous and monogamous, I'm also curious to hear from you what have been your thoughts and your experiences. So go ahead and put that in the comments while we go on to our next question. Okay, let's talk about some of the main reasons why people pursue consensual non monogamy. I know mine, but in my experience, there are some incredible benefits to being in an open relationship. And my last one taught me so, so much and offered so much personal growth, especially for me, with respect to communication. I am a far, far better communicator now, having had gone through that relationship than I was previously. So, Israel, in our pre podcast chat, we discussed this idea of a relationship anchor. Let's talk about that. What exactly is it and how do we find it?
• 21:21
  Speaker B: Sure. So, Lola Phoenix, in her book the anxious person's guy to non monogamy, they speak to this idea of an anchor. That's the first time that I became aware of it, and it really resonated for me because I have dealt with and continue to deal with a lot of clients who can find it difficult to be in a consensually non monogamous relationship and something that I find that helps them get through the jealousy, the anxiety, the questioning if, if this person's going to leave me for that person or I do want more time, or this is really difficult for me to have to handle. Being alone or not finding my own sort of dates when my partner is out is to have an anchor in terms of what has you really committed to consensual nominogamy. So what is it about consensual non monogamy that is appealing to you, valuable to you, beneficial to you, and it's crucial that it's beneficial to you personally. So not, oh, well, this is great for my partner because they get to do a, B and c because I can get tired after a while or can build resentment. And so it's really important to figure out why even bother. Why bother having to share a calendar because there's, you have seven dates this week. Or why bother worrying about communicating your needs to multiple partners or worrying about what's going on with multiple partners? So we do some work in figuring out why consensual non monogamy? Why is it something that makes sense for you? What's your anchor? What's keeping you in it even when the relationships aren't so great? Or it is a lot of work, or it is at sometimes exhausting.
• 23:22
  Speaker A: Yeah. So it's like your compelling reason why. Yes. Yes.
• 23:26
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 23:26
  Speaker A: Why would you put yourself through this?
• 23:28
  Speaker B: Exactly. So that you can go back to it and remind yourself that it's worth it, that whatever you're going through at this point in time is temporary and that you have skills and tools that you can use to continue to get this value out of something.
• 23:43
  Speaker A: I use that question for with myself or any, any of my clients, whenever they have a big goal or something they want to accomplish, that is going to be hard and it will be challenging. The question I have is, why would you sign up for this? And I make them answer it.
• 23:56
  Speaker B: Right.
• 23:56
  Speaker A: So how could you find your anchor?
• 23:59
  Speaker B: So I think it's exploring. I mean, answering that question literally. So why is it appealing in the first place? Why is it important to you? What would it mean to lose the ability to be consensually non monogamous? And we talk about explore those areas. So for a lot of people, it is this sense of freedom. For a lot of people, it is the sense of being able to connect with multiple people, the ability to personally be more vulnerable. And for some people, it's also, the challenge of this idea that monogamy is the default and I should just do it. And so some people really like that they are being challenged and stretching, and for them, that's personal growth, and that's worth it for them to stick it out. Even if eventually it doesn't wind up being the only type of relationship that they seek out, it can be very rewarding for them.
• 25:09
  Speaker A: I think for me, the first two you said are the two the freedom, as I had said in the earlier bit, like, I just don't want to have to say no. If there's something that I would consider fun, and I would call it innocent. People beg to differ on that. But, yeah, if it's just fun and innocent, all parties are consenting. Why would I want to say no to that? And then the second piece for me is the variety element, because I like a lot of different things. I like a lot of different people. I don't have one kind of niche type of person or one type of sex or one type of relationship. I actually do like to dabble in a little bit of everything and everyone. So that openness gives me that opportunity in a way that I can explore that and not be out of the boundaries or out of the. Out of the boundaries of relationship. Yeah.
• 25:53
  Speaker B: And I would say that those first two are pretty typical. There are just people who really want to connect on multiple levels with different people and understand that it's just often not reasonable to expect that one person is going to fully stimulate you. Yeah.
• 26:11
  Speaker A: And that's. And that's okay, right?
• 26:13
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 26:13
  Speaker A: Like, let them off the hook is what I would say. You know, they're wonderful and they may be the person you love, but, like, they. They can't please every single part of you. And that's okay. Like, that's a lot of pressure. If I'm on the receiving end of that, if there's something maybe sexually that I'm just not into. And I. I don't want to have to feel like I'm just doing it out of obligation. I'd rather be like, listen, that doesn't really turn me on. I want you to have the best orgasm of your life. I want you to be aroused. I want you, partner, deserve to have that. So by all means, if there's someone over here who is happy to do that with you, I'll get out of the way. I'll state watch. I'll do whatever you want, but it's not going to be me.
• 26:48
  Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah.
• 26:50
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 26:50
  Speaker B: It's wonderful to have that option. And oftentimes people just don't even think that that is an option.
• 26:57
  Speaker A: Now, at the beginning, I had alluded to like what I would consider some wrong reasons for pursuing consensual non monogamy. Do you agree that there might be some reasons that are not so great?
• 27:06
  Speaker B: Yes. I think if you're looking to just sort of fix your relationship through going outside the relationship, that would be probably the biggest reason that I found that people do bring it up and it winds up not being for them, consensual non monogamy. So we want to have a good foundation in typically in a primary relationship and really make sure that that is functioning and that you're not going outside the relationship to make up for something that is wrong in the relation, in your primary relationship, because your primary relationship is going to most likely not work out. And then I would say statistically, you probably are not going to be that successful in the next relationship either. There probably are things, if they're not working in that primary relationship that need to be addressed or else you're just going to keep repeating those mistakes and so not be able to be in any type of successful relationship. Now, I've been with couples who have seen the fun of being able to have sex outside the relationship or figure if I can't get something from within the relationship that I do actually want or need from my partner, then I'm just going to go out, you know, outside for it instead of figuring out whether or not they can get that from their partner or if it is going to be healthy for them to get it outside of the relationship. So while not one partner is going to meet all of your needs, you have to be sure that you are committed to that person, that that relationship in itself is stable and that you're not looking to supplement, but rather complement when you go outside the relationship.
• 29:08
  Speaker A: Love that supplement, not complement well, yeah.
• 29:10
  Speaker B: You want to make sure that you are not looking to supplement, that you are looking at compliment. Yeah.
• 29:15
  Speaker A: The way that I say it is you don't want to escape your relationship by opening it up.
• 29:20
  Speaker B: I love that. Yeah.
• 29:21
  Speaker A: And that's what I find a lot of people do. Again, when they're not doing this very intentionally or consciously, that's like, oh, the relationship isn't great, so we're just going to open it up. It sounds like it's not going to fix anything. You're just avoiding. You're just avoiding the issue. And in fact, I would say in the situations I've seen, it actually just exacerbates and makes things worse.
• 29:38
  Speaker B: Yeah, it reminds me of, oh, the relationship's not working. Let's have a baby.
• 29:42
  Speaker A: Yeah. Right.
• 29:45
  Speaker B: Let's get a puppy. Or, and that does not tend to help things.
• 29:49
  Speaker A: Right. Those are some of the common, I think relationship anchors. Again, let's just check in with our audience now. You know, what do you think your relationship anchor is again? You could put that in the comments in YouTube, let us know. And also, I want to take some time to call attention to our coaching collection, the game and going deeper coaching collection, which has lifetime access to two courses, healing your shame and building better relationships, and 45 personal development coaching videos specifically. If you're interested in this topic, I definitely recommend the coaching collection because the building better relationships course is all about relationships. Whether it's monogamous or non monogamous, you will find benefit from it. One of the modules, I take them through something called the five questions to ask yourself before going into a relationship. It kind of reminds me of what you had done there is real at the beginning. We also talk about attachment styles, communication skills and conflict transformation in that course. And then our coaching collection, one of the four umbrellas we have there, or categories, is under relationships. So we have 23 videos under the umbrella of relationships. Some of the ones that I think would be really beneficial would be the four habits that kill communication and what to do instead. That one was really helpful for me. And then I did a video called introduction to conceptual non monogamy and then introduction to attachment styles and more. If youre interested in taking that to the next level, please go to gaimangoingdeeper.com for more info. So going back to those anchors Israel, let's say I said, yeah, you know what I want? I want variety and I want freedom. What happens, I think, is some people will say that that's not a good reason that you're cheating, you're being selfish, or that's not a real relationship. You have to sacrifice. You have to be committed to the one person. So I think it's important that we talk a little bit about this. I call the social stigma that monogamy is the only valid form of a relationship. The two main objections I hear when it comes to consensual non monogamy is that, yes, it is the only valid form of a relationship. And then the other one would be that monogamous relationships are more secure because the thing that people worry about is, well, then you're just inviting them to find somebody better so we can address.
• 31:54
  Speaker B: Them one at a time. This idea that your partner can't. You're just inviting your partner to find someone else, right? I mean, that can happen in a monogamous relationship, right? I mean, you can meet someone at work, in the street, at a party. So when we look at the numbers in terms of infidelity in monogamous relationships, I feel like that's not really even a real thing. To think that you are keeping your partner from having the ability to just find someone else if you stay monogamous, I think that's a false sense of security. And this idea of sacrificing and suffering and monogamy being a true testament of a relationship to me is kind of b's because it's just, to me, a default. Right? So who says that we need to sacrifice in order for a relationship to be committed or healthy? Who says that we need to do things that are typical of a monogamous relationship just because it's the default or just because it's what most people are doing to me is just the default or the typical is that they're a man and a woman are in a relationship together. Right. And so as gay men, we obviously are not comfortable with that. And so there definitely are people who is just. Monogamy is a structure that just doesn't work for everyone.
• 33:34
  Speaker A: I know that it doesn't work for everyone. It might work for you, but it might not. And so instead of having one option, there are many options, and everyone can find their perfect sweet spot of what that might look like.
• 33:45
  Speaker B: Yes, a lot of things in life just going by the default or a binary is just really not fair and not really representative of who we are as people. We're complicated. And some of us do have the capacity to be in multiple relationships and be committed and loving and caring, and we should not exclude that because it doesn't follow some formula that is just way too much of a blanket or not for everyone.
• 34:22
  Speaker A: How can someone do that? If there's a listener viewer out there now listening to this, and they want to start challenging some of those ingrained beliefs, beliefs about monogamy, so that they can start maybe seeing consensual non monogamy as a viable option for a relationship, how can they start challenging those beliefs?
• 34:37
  Speaker B: Well, I would start with thinking about monogamy and what you want to get out of a relationship, right? So if we were to just be on a different planet and not be so influenced by societal messaging or what you saw as your blueprint or role model in terms of relationship, which is typically parents or guardians, and what we see on tv or movies, if we try to erase all of that and we just think about what's important to us in a relationship, if on that list is exclusivity in terms of sexual partners or relationships, okay. You know, we could explore a little bit about why that's important to you. And if it is important to you, fine. And that means more likely that monogamy is for you. And if that's not on the list, then maybe you do want to see if there are other ways that you can be in a relationship. And again, it doesn't have to be forever. And so I would say start from scratch as much as possible. I like to try, depending on my client and what they're into, I try to really figure out for them what might get them out of their heads in terms of societal messaging and stigma and just really figure out for them what is it that they actually want in a relationship. What are their actual needs?
• 36:04
  Speaker A: Yeah. Free from what they think they should need or think they should want. Yeah. Those two different things. Right.
• 36:09
  Speaker B: Exactly. What's going to have them feel accepted or good as if they're doing the right thing or what they think is going to keep them safer. And in reality, we see that it doesnt necessarily.
• 36:28
  Speaker A: Trey. So me and my former partner were together for three years, and so I had to tell my family about the fact that we were in an open relationship. And one of the comments from one of my family members was something like, oh, thats not romantic. Thats so unromantic. And I was like, no, no, no. In fact, it is the opposite because in my mind, this is for me, okay. There is nothing more romantic than saying to me as a partner or my partner, listen, I love you. I want you to have all the things you want to have and then to go out and explore the world, have all the fun, and then still choose to come back to me. That is the most romantic thing. Right. Whereas I think people who try to control, like, oh, make sure he doesnt talk to this guy because then hes going to go leave me for him or make sure he doesnt talk to this guy or make sure he doesnt put himself in these situations. Youre just trying to control your partner. And for someone like me, that feels terrible. I hate that feeling of being controlled because at the end of the day, even with my former partner, I would go out, have my fun, and I would always come back to him and I'd always love him more. In fact, I appreciated the fact that he was so strong and secure himself, and I just felt comfort in his arms. It was different than finding whatever else I was getting. And so I think that that is actually more romantic, personally.
• 37:36
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a beautifully put, a great point. And one thing with my relationship work as a clinician is you want to be careful about symbiosis happening in a relationship, which is where someone, or both people in the relationship, if it's a monogamous relationship, feel as if they need the other person to be on exactly the same page. They are to see things the way that they do, to want to do the exact same things that they do, oftentimes also being together all the time. And that can be very damaging to a relationship, because you just become one big glob instead of two people in a partnership, and that you're not growing, the other person's not growing, and it's impossible for you to be the same person. Right. And so it's about differentiation. So being in a partnership and allowing you to have your own opinion and insights and perspectives. And so I definitely see that in consensual, non monogamous relationships, this concept of differentiation does tend to flourish and does tend to lead to much healthier relationships than monogamy, where this concept of symbiosis is more easily allowed to take place.
• 39:00
  Speaker A: And does that happen with polyamory as well? So, in my experience, I haven't been in those situations where I had more than one emotional connection. I had my primary partner that was sort of my emotional connection, sexual connection, and then I had other fun on the side. But there is also polyamory, which is having multiple emotional connection, right? Yes.
• 39:20
  Speaker B: Right. So I think that especially allows for differentiation because you are being a version of yourself with someone else. And. And I bring this up because you, Michael, mentioned in your partners seeing you, wanting you to flourish, seeing you flourish and appreciate that, and seeing you do your own thing and having an appreciation for that. And so differentiation is about allowing your partner to be who they are. And so if you're in a poly relationship, and let's say it's a hierarchy, then your primary, with your primary, that primary is allowing you to go out and have these multiple relationships and be yourself and do your thing, and then your other partners are also allowing you. Right. To be yourself with other partners, with your primary partners. So it's just you fully realizing who you are. I'm not saying this always works out if you're going to be consensually non monogamous, you do tend to find people who really are about you celebrating yourself and being yourself and aren't looking to, as you were mentioning Michael, control you or are about this opposite of what the family was saying in terms of it's showing a lot of love and caring to let you be who you are, even if it means that person, even if it means you're not constantly attached to that person. Right. They're happy for you.
• 40:51
  Speaker A: Yeah. It's almost like, you know, that common, what if they find someone better? For me, it was the opposite. I was like, actually, no. I went around and the grass is not greener. And now I know for sure.
• 41:01
  Speaker B: Yeah. Great point.
• 41:01
  Speaker A: Yeah. So it almost does the opposite, I think, when I hear that statement, what if they find someone else? It's so fear based and again, so controlling. And like you had alluded to earlier, you cannot control who your partner meets in the world, whether you're open or not. They can meet people any which way. And, like, the world is full of monogamous relationships where people have cheated or found someone else. It doesn't matter whether they're open or not, right.
• 41:24
  Speaker B: Yeah. It's not a guarantee. Yeah.
• 41:26
  Speaker A: Okay. This has been really helpful. Israel, thank you for your insights today. If people want to get a hold of you, where could they find you?
• 41:33
  Speaker B: So my website is drisraelmartinez.com dot. That would be a good place to start to get to know me a little bit better and reach out.
• 41:42
  Speaker A: Okay, awesome. And where are you located?
• 41:44
  Speaker B: I'm in New Jersey and licensed in New Jersey and New York.
• 41:48
  Speaker A: Any final words for our audience before I wrap up today?
• 41:51
  Speaker B: Oh, I just hope that you really got a lot out of this. And I think just being open to what else is out there in the world is a very, very healthy way.
• 42:04
  Speaker A: To live, and that doesn't mean it has to be consensually non monogamous. You can choose monogamy, and that is fine. And that is wonderful. Whatever works.
• 42:11
  Speaker B: Let's be open. Yes.
• 42:12
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. You know what? It is for me, actually, I think for me, being in an open relationship, for me personally, is harder, at least historically, in my experience, than when I was in the monogamous one. Like, I find that was really. I felt very limited there. So again, it kind of goes back to your anchors. Like, why? Why would you do this?
• 42:30
  Speaker B: And another thing, maybe even if consensual non monogamy is not for you, then hopefully this podcast opened you up to be more fair to others in your life who are consensually non monogamous.
• 42:42
  Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Yes, in the Gaiman's Brotherhood Facebook group that we run whenever this topic comes up, there's a lot of judgment on both sides. I will say this, there's just a lot of judgment and misconceptions being thrown around and just let people be happy with whatever relationship structure they want. If there's consenting adults and everyone's happy, then just leave people alone.
• 42:59
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 43:00
  Speaker A: All right, well, thank you Israel for joining us today. Thank you to our listeners and viewers for sticking along for this ride. Remember that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported, so if you enjoy what we're creating here, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. You could also subscribe to get early access on Apple Podcasts so you can listen ad free and gain early access to episodes before they are released wide to the public. All of your support helps us to continue making content and supporting our community. So we thank you so, so much in advance. For any other information on the Gaiman's Brotherhood and this podcast, please check out gaimansbrotherhood.com. thank you. Have a great day.
• 43:37
  Speaker B: Bye.