Latest / UNLEASHED By LoyaltyOps / Tell Your People "I Don't Know" | Emily Schneider

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Tell Your People "I Don't Know" | Emily Schneider · UNLEASHED By LoyaltyOps

• Emily Schneider: Your people don't need you to say everything's fine. You can say, I don't know, but here's what I'm doing to try to mitigate some of this. And some of this I'm just gonna tell you, we're gonna work through it together. I'm not gonna leave you guys or let you down. Mickey Anderson: Today I'm joined by Emily Schneider, strategic executive and fractional COO with 25 years of experience in both B2B and B2C, from startup all the way up to 300 million in revenue. Emily is my go-to most trusted source for getting stuff done. And not just getting stuff done, getting the right stuff done. Emily, thank you so much for spending time with me. Emily Schneider: You are most welcome and I am super excited to be here with you. Mickey Anderson: One of the things you and I have chatted about at length is how we prioritize the standards, the systems, the people, the org structure, all those components. I'd love to hear kind of your perspective on what you're seeing, Emily Schneider: in general the COO role is very confusing to most people. they think it's operations when it's truly not an operations role. I like to call it like the conductor of an orchestra, you have to understand and know every facet and how those all work together, because your COO ideally should be somebody that can both step back and look at that large strategic picture while also being able to dive in to get to the heart of the why when there are problems that need to be solved. And I think because the COO role can present and function in quite a few different ways, it can be a challenge for anyone, CEO or otherwise, to really understand. You you know, they they hear operations because operations in the title. And so they may immediately picture somebody coming in and doing processes and somebody coming in and doing, you know, the steps and SOPs and it's like, no, that is so far from the role. but and more importantly, it really doesn't move the needle because A company is made up of individuals, which are always changing, they're always in flux. And so what you're really dealing with isn't an SOP, it's more of a strategic and cultural integration. And how do you communicate? How do you work together? You know, does everyone understand the goal? Mickey Anderson: you and I have both seen this trap where we've got a company that's struggling. They're having trouble with performance or hitting their objectives or they're at a growth plateau. And they're like, we need to streamline, we need better workflows, we need better processes. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold your horses there. When you see a company that's wanting to focus on that or focusing on that, when they have these performance issues, how are you looking at it? How are you having the conversation? What do you see? Emily Schneider: they think that and they're like, and we also want to cut costs. I think it's because for a CEO they f feel like and traditionally they don't have strong organizational skills or they don't have strong structure skills. And if things are feeling like they're going off the rails and or things aren't working the way they want or a rollout isn't happening. They think it's, well we need more processes and we need more more structure because that's where everything's going off the handle. And so they come in and you know and they're like, let's do this and we need a COO that's gonna deal with all these operational issues. And that's when you said, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold your horses and you're like, or the the great one. do you now? Is that really what you need? You know, like, my goodness. it's one of those really I think cool but also it's a beautiful thing because the CEO is. There's somebody that comes in with these amazing ideas. what I have found traditionally, especially in small business, is they know how to do the thing. They don't know how to do the business. these smaller companies where the COO, you know, and just in the private sector in general, it's such a new concept of, so wait a minute. I get to be the face, I get to be the idea machine. And essentially this person is coming in to run the company and to make things happen, not to set new processes and and where those lines cross between the CEO and the COO they can be very adaptable based on personality and skill set Mickey Anderson: you and I have both gone into companies where, they know they need something, there's performance issues that are happening. And they don't necessarily tie the COO or the operations or overall how the business runs to the performance problems. And there's this disconnect, Between what's actually causing our poor performance or inability to hit our objectives and what's actually going to solve the problem. And you do such a good job of connecting the dots for people between, you know, here's where we want to go, here's where we have problems, and here's what needs to change to fix it. So when you're looking at an organization who has performance problems and you're having that conversation, what are some of the things that you're looking for or connecting to understand what actually needs to change? Emily Schneider: so let's use a a reference of the CEO says we have a sales problem and we've tried hiring different salespeople and it's still not working. in a situation like that it's almost never the one thing that they think of. that's why my LinkedIn header is look beyond the obvious because you have to think about it as a a whole like a a body if you will. You can't just look at the arms. so what directly connects with sales? Okay, well we've got the client experience, we've got marketing, we've got potentially project management, depending on what type of company. You've got all these intersections. Is marketing saying the same thing that sales is saying? Is the client experience following up on and delivering what the sales said? Is product actually delivering what the client wants? And so you have to look at the relational aspect of each of these components and how they interact with one another. I think the thing that's simple about it that's You find people are like, we've got to do this huge, like, you know and you do. Transformation, Mickey Anderson: Overhaul, transformation, yeah. Emily Schneider: we have to go through this enormous process. And you know, in enterprise companies, you absolutely do. Because they're just so enormous to wrap your arms around it. You have to create some sort of structured process. But in most companies, you know, that are like 250 or less, it's really easy when you've got a situation like that. To go into each of the departments or video in each of the departments and talk with each of those and spend 20 minutes ahead of time you ask them to put together their list of things that they see are challenging or what they would love to fix. And then you meet with all those departments and you get all that feedback, or you just have it send have them send it to you. And suddenly you have a full picture and realize, it's not because we have a salesperson problem. And that's when you instantly can see. we've got issues here, these people don't get along. And it's usually not just one thing, it's maybe a combination of a whole thing. Mickey Anderson: it's the same thing that I see. It's usually a Venn diagram, the big problem that I see, I've seen this so many times, and I'm sure you have too, where, okay, we've got a sales problem. We'll stick with that example. We've got a sales problem. I'm gonna go and work with the sales leader to figure out what they're gonna do to fix the problem. And then, we've actually got a customer service. I'm gonna go talk to that person to fix their problem or they're gonna and it's siloed and we never put the picture together. And the CEO has to be an inch deep, a mile wide. Right across everything. They have to see it all. The COO is the one who is connecting those dots and putting it together to support the organization as a whole, not just this one little department where we get stuff done and write process and stuff like that. So I I love that example and I think it really clarifies this is how we run together, how we work together, how everything feeds and cycles through. And I a hundred percent agree that nine times out of ten, the solution is way easier, way faster, way cheaper than anyone predicted. Cause it's usually just like let's put our heads together as a company and make sure that we're actually working together towards the big objective, not just working on my one thing. Emily Schneider: I think that some of The biggest losses are really come down to two things. You're not asking The individuals in the departments that are doing the actual work, what's holding them back, and how they would solve it. I don't have and am not into frameworks and all of these different things, but one thing I do have is an ownership foundation that I teach across in an organization where, and like you said, you keep people from being siloed. You you actually teach them how to own all of their objectives and what that looks like and how that works with another department and how to coordinate that. But I think that going back to those two things, so many of the the approach of this top down well, there's a sales problem, I'm gonna go in there and fix it, you need to ask, you know, you need to ask your people because they're the one living that day in and day out. And you and those are the experts in that individual thing because you're too far away from it to really know. And then the second thing is the customer. You know, people come up with all these ideas and we dream up exciting new this or that. you have the most valuable thing you could ever ask for when you're a company that has been running for a while. You have a group of customers, Ask them what they want. What have they been missing? What would make them happier? You then develop products and services based around that and you ask your people, how would you guys solve and create these solutions? It exists in the company. It's like don't overcomplicate this. Don't try to force an agenda or your idea and hope someone likes it. Or hope it sells because i'm wasting a whole lot of energy, resources, when your two best things are your people and your customers. And if you focus on those two things and you really take care of your humans and you really take care of your clients Let's just keep it simple, people. Mickey Anderson: there's two things that come to mind as we talk about this. The first, I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with startup founders or, you know, early stage founders, visionaries in that bucket where they have an idea and they build an entire product and go to market without ever actually doing customer discovery and development, without ever actually getting feedback, understanding the problem, what's already being used. And it's just infuriating. And I see the same problem in product. within companies, it across the board Emily Schneider: R and D will go out and be like, I have cool ideas, we're gonna build it. Okay, let's launch that. Where's your Mickey Anderson: Sounds great. No. it's so funny to me that we spend so little time really unpacking what our customers want and need. the second thing that came to mind was this argument. I made this argument to someone recently where I was like, You gotta you gotta talk to your customers, you gotta talk to the potential customers and get information before you build the thing. And he quoted Henry Ford. He's like, Well, there's this quote about Henry Ford. Who said if he asked his customers, they would have just asked for faster horses. And it's like you're not necessarily speed, right? You have to unpack it and not take it at face value what they're telling them. They might have great, great ideas, but you have to look beyond the obvious, And I I think we oversimplify that with that excuse of like, yeah, but the customer doesn't know what they want, right? Emily Schneider: Well, no, and that's why you give them a framework of, hey, we really love and value you as our customer or our client. Here are some ideas we have that we think might add a lot of value for you. Let us know and give them a list of options and sub options and then give the place where they can fill it in because like anyone, it's easier to iterate than to create for most people. And if they see a list, even if it's nothing on that list, if they have a spot where they can then write because they read it and they're like, wait, I want this, then they can write it in. So yes, I completely agree. If you fling it out there, yeah, well I want a faster horse, well, that's just a lazy answer to me. Mickey Anderson: to that as well is we don't spend enough time understanding beyond our shiny idea what's the other problems, the related challenges, the other technology, the before and after. Really unpacking enough about your customer to understand how you could solve their problems or where problems are that they might not necessarily know but would love to have solved. So it it goes a little bit deeper. And it's the same with your company, If you're just taking ideas at face value, or this is the problem, this is what so and so said, it's like you still have to spend some thinking. Emily Schneider: Yes. And I think I just said this recently it's kind of a universal problem and they all hate hearing it, but you have to slow down because you can't just take it at face value. And the ideas and what created and started your company and moving fast was perfect for that point. But it's not what's sustainable for a company. And if you slow down just a little bit, not only does it help you get to the heart of the why, but it makes your people respect you as a leader more because they're like, they're seeing me. They're hearing that there's a problem and they're not just like trying to put a stamp on it and rush by and go to the next thing. Because we all know we're gonna show up to this meeting. They're gonna give us a big whatever hoo-a-ray, way we're gonna do this. But it we all know we're gonna walk away and go, that's not gonna fix the problem at all, because that's not even what the problem really is. and it's hard because as a a founder you move as you grow, you know, you move further and further away from it because like you said, inch deep, mile wide. it's a really a challenge. and it's made up of a whole bunch of people and you have to rely on your people. And your people have to rely on you to continue, you know, as a CEO or founder. They look to you to set the direction and to be that calm in the crazy waters. there's so much uncertainty in absolutely everything right now. Mickey Anderson: I want to touch on uncertainty in a second, but before we do that, I have a contrarian opinion around the COO role and just operations in general. And I feel like you and I are gonna be aligned on it. Emily Schneider: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: I I think one of the myths, I'll call it from my perspective, is that many people think COOs and operations in general are about the tasks, the tools, the pieces, And my perspective is like, no, it's about the people. Like as much yes, you have a C H R O or HR, but like your job as COO is getting the people working together. Like Emily Schneider: Yes. Mickey Anderson: the solving the problems, right? Identifying them and solving them. And that's really the role is the people coordinator. Right. Yes. Emily Schneider: Yeah, you have to be like the culture. You have to be like the culture keeper, the the one who can read all the people, that can help create harmony, that can pull out of individuals that are quieter and give them a voice. You know, you have to know how to navigate the human experience and how they're experiencing your company and do they feel valued? But yeah, that's truly, you know, like the COO role. It's being able to identify and get into that that heart of the why. being able to help and really align with the CEO and work on the strategy and then aligning that with the goals. But all of that involves your people. And if that harmony or that autonomy and knowing that they as individuals are valued and that they have that autonomy and ability to see a problem and come to you with solutions and when you start to free people up and give them the support and say thank you. I've had so many CEOs, I'll say, When was the last time you told that person thank you? Mm and they were like, That's just their job. But if that person wasn't there doing their job That wouldn't happen. You know? Just like if you aren't here, they wouldn't have a job. we're all humans, you know, like we want to be part of something. We all want to feel included. We all want to be seen. And it's just that kind of essential human condition that I think the COO. really needs to have the ability to embody, to be to make a company really successful. Mickey Anderson: let's talk a little bit about uncertainty because this is on everyone's mind, today, at least from what I'm seeing with clients and peers and everyone working right now, a lot is getting done. Everyone is busy, There's lots of movement, not necessarily a ton of progress. And everyone's on edge thinking we need to get the next bet, we need to do the next thing, we need to be ahead. And it's just causing all this confusion and chaos and giving people whiplash. I'd love to know your take on in this day and age with so much uncertainty, what are the things that we should be focusing on or avoiding Emily Schneider: a lot of CEOs need to understand is once they've grown out of startup mode, so much of their role is about forward thinking, but it's also about being the rock. It's about being that calm for your group, even when as a CEO you're facing so much uncertainty. Your people don't need you to say everything's fine. You can say, I don't know, here's what I'm doing to try to mitigate some of this. And some of this I'm just gonna tell you, we're gonna work through it together. And I'm not gonna leave you guys or let you down. And be transparent and be honest and let them know you're a human and that you're gonna work on that together. The other thing I would say in real strong fear-based situations or strong uncertainty like what we're living, if you have a COO, leverage them as a CEO. Because that's your thought partner. If you're afraid Or you're uncertain, use that person as your rock and that person can use you as their rock. hold each other up and do it across the company. that way you don't have to be alone because that's one of the things that all CEOs struggle with. And it's so hard, between the imposter syndrome and feeling really alone and feeling like they're always carrying everything. open up, share it with people that you're comfortable with, but don't be afraid. To share that with your whole company because as opposed to looking weak, what it's gonna do is it's gonna humanize you to your people. And they are gonna react to you in a way that you've never seen. They're gonna pull harder, they're gonna come to you and say, I've been totally worried about that. But you saying that out loud just made me feel better and felt like, okay, at least somebody else is thinking about this. They need to see that a leader is human, and that you don't need to have all the answers. You just need to be there and I love this and I've had people tell me this in the past that I'm like Gerard Butler's character in three hundred where he's screaming, Hold the line Hold the line They're like, You're that person. that's what the you know, the COO or the CEO needs to be able to do. But they really people really love to see it out of the CEO some people will hear this and be like, that's very woo-woo. But when you put that out, it comes back to you. And like I explained earlier, it comes back to you in ways that I think are really beautiful. Mickey Anderson: we were talking about this earlier where most business problems are really like people problems. and not in like this person's bad, this person's good, but like how we're dealing with stress, how we're helping each other, how we're working together, how we're coordinating to get things done. Are we all working towards the same goal? Like that that's really what it comes down to. what I'm hearing from you is focus on your people. How are you supporting them and enabling them and ensuring that they have the steady rock through these hard times and the resources and autonomy to get stuff done? And you'll be pretty surprised at the results you get. Emily Schneider: I just feel like most people really overcomplicate business with surveys and charts and transition plans and If we all just work together and we all know each other in a way that builds that level of trust by just being honest, being transparent, sharing those things that you as an individual struggle with, especially in leadership roles. It's really moving to everyone in the organization. I know for me personally, because I'm very transparent and wherever I'm at and will share whatever, when I'm struggling, I've had so many people come back to me and say this has made such an enormous difference in my career. And I had no idea that somebody like you could be struggling, which then made it I felt okay. And it gave me this sense of security and like, I'm not alone. And so much of that, and CEOs, everyone out there, you know the alone feeling and you know how heavy that you feel alone and it sits on you. So if you think about it from your employees' perspective of feeling like they're alone, So if you just even just say it out loud. And that's like for me, I don't need most people to solve any problem for me. I just need to say it out loud. I tell people it's like getting out a sliver or a splinter, you know. It's it's awful and it hurts and it hurts and the minute you pull it out you're like, hooray, everything's better. Mickey Anderson: one of the things that that you do really well is you set really clear standards and expectations. what you expect of others, you model beautifully, consistently. that's another kind of layer to this Where many will focus on SOPs and workflows and strict process, it's really the standards and expectations that make the biggest difference, that move people in the right direction. when you think about standards, when you think about setting people up for success and giving them clear expectations, what's your approach, especially when you're coming into a company where they're struggling with performance to get everyone kind of moving in the same direction, working together well? Emily Schneider: one of the first things I do is I meet with every individual and I just listen to them. Or if I can't meet with every individual because the company's so large, it's going through and speaking with each department and hearing who's struggling and who's not and speaking to one of each of those individuals And your role, this role, isn't to go in and to solve those problems right then. It's to listen. to give them somebody that says, I see you, I want to hear what you're struggling with. and this is why that ownership framework of mine is so important because you're gonna free your people and move it ahead by and with the the validation and the being seen. and you can roll out and it's not rolling it out even. It's showing them each, you know, explaining it, it's really simple, giving them those parameters. and I've actually had employees tell me she has crazy high expectations but she has those same expectations out of herself and with her I've been able to produce some of the best work I've ever done in my career. because she's there and she supports us. So one of the things that I think with the people that are struggling, they need to Know that you've heard them, but you also have to be able to come into a conversation and say, This is the things that I see you're doing that are amazing. and like really see the person, not just give some sort of rote. You have to get into the human. And then say this is what I'm seeing you're struggling with. Do you think that's something you struggle with? If that's the case, walk me through it. Like what's causing that for you? You know, is it a personal thing? Is it relational working with somebody else? Is it a tool? Is it just something you don't know? and you just start to work together and have this conversation, and then they know, I can come to her when I'm struggling, and she's not gonna tear me apart or write it on a on a yearly What they call them that I don't do? Yes, thank Mickey Anderson: Performance review or whatever, yeah. Emily Schneider: you. Yeah. they're not gonna put on a performance review because I'm sorry, a year went by. Who even remembers? It's not you can't work that way and it's not helpful and people feel belittled when you tell them do your own performance review and then I'm gonna edit your performance review based on my own opinions. I mean, what is that? But by doing that in cadence, you know, on a weekly basis, on a daily basis, just checking in You know, people are like, we don't have time for that. Ask yourself what's truly moving the needle that you're doing today. People spend so much time answering emails and doing things that aren't going to move the needle. You invest, you spend the time in your people, that will move the needle. And so I think it's just kind of that whole combination, that stew, Could build that and then sharing they have to see your humanness. the other thing I'll do is say I'm really struggling with this and then they'll watch me work on it and they'll watch me say when I'm wrong and I'll tell them when I'm wrong and tell and apologize when I should be apologizing. and those behaviors when they see it out of a leader. it helps them rise, but it also gives them that space because most people are just afraid that if they're wrong or they do something wrong, that they're gonna be in trouble. So they don't step outside of that or they don't grow. And I I think one of the things that I say to so many of my people that has really resonates with them is like, I don't care if you screwed up. I've got your back. I'd rather you try. and we will work through that struggle together. But I've got your back. I'm not gonna demean you and put you down. I'm here to help you grow your role that aligns with this company's goal for this quarter or whatever it is. And what does that look like? Mickey Anderson: First, I want I wanna commend you because I've met so many fractionals, so many people who will join companies and they won't take that time to really understand what the heck is going on here, to really listen and embed themselves in the company. And it's so crucial and it's absolutely has to be a priority. If you skip it, you will pay for it. And the bill is coming due and it's gonna be expensive. Emily Schneider: Yeah. and then everybody's gonna wonder while nothing changed. Mickey Anderson: this is how we learn, we're practicing skills on the edge of our capabilities where the chance of failure is there. And unless we actually do that, we're not going to learn and grow. And in most organizations, that's not allowed. It's not welcomed. It's like you do this and you do it perfectly or you don't do it. And the second you fail, I'm gonna swoop in and do it for you and show you how to do it right. That's not building skills, that's not building capability, that's not building people and this is such a huge shift. it ties back to your point about being the steward of culture in the company Emily Schneider: and there's a lot of people where they're like, that's a lot of work and I don't have time for that. Yes, it is a mountain of work. It really is. but you spend that time, you do that work, and yeah, it can be heavy and it can take a long time. But I've done it in all organizations of different sizes, 30 people, 150. You do that for 30 days. That whole team, and I've actually had a couple different CEOs write it in letters of recommendation for me, which was so kind that I've been able to build trust in an organization faster than anybody they've ever seen. so yeah, it does take a while, but it doesn't take a while. for those seeds and that momentum to really start happening. And once people trust you and know that they are safe with you, they're willing to take those risks, they're willing to try, and suddenly their productivity goes up. And suddenly they show up to meetings and they're prepared and they're excited So yeah, it's work, but it's the right work and it's necessary. Mickey Anderson: I think about all the times where people have been looking for that lightning in a bottle, That one secret sauce, Emily Schneider: They want Mickey Anderson: the thing that's gonna come and transform everything. And they always want it to be fast. And like it's like some things, like you said, you gotta slow down to speed up. Some things are worth the time. And as much as it might feel slow in the moment, the results that come from that, the progress that happens is going to be absolutely worth it. And it's gonna make all the impact that you're looking for. But if you don't take that time, you're just gonna waste a bunch of money and resources on another thing that doesn't make any change. Emily Schneider: Yeah, that really doesn't move that needle and doesn't make lasting change. And that's really important in an organization to build a culture that's open and wants to move things forward and innovate and always be looking for ways to improve And every day isn't kumbaya and we're all like loving and happy Mickey Anderson: at least from my opinion, we need to look at sport more. I think we put this divide between sport and business. And it's like, that's cool. The sports teams do it, but we're a business, right? But Emily Schneider: Yeah. Yeah. It's like okay. Mickey Anderson: ultimately, if you look at those legacy teams, what is the foundation they're built on? It's built on culture, it's built on trust, I know for myself in training and swimming, it's like we had hard days. Training camps were the worse, like you were exhausted. But what got you through wasn't necessarily the goal in your mind or the it was the people suffering with you through it, all trying to achieve something. we all have good days and bad days, but it it's that that really sets those apart. And it's it's sad because it feels like, and I don't know that it is, but it feels like we've almost lost that today with such a focus on technology and AI and, you know, We're gonna make complicated systems and we're gonna call people talent or resources. for me, it's like, let's just get back to people. Like that, that's the core of everything. so for our listeners, Emily, because everybody's busy trying to integrate AI like everybody else. And if you could give one piece of advice, I would say to these CEOs, to these founders who are trying to move us forward through all this uncertainty. What's either one piece of advice or one thing that they can focus on that you think will get them moving in the right direction faster? Emily Schneider: Some of I would say it's what is your goal for the year? Pick one or two things and that's all you focus on. Stay focused. for some it's recognizing and taking the temperature of your company. And do you see that there's fear? So how do you fix that to give that certainty? It's a little different for each one, maybe it's just asking your people what they need to make a difference. And no, you're not Santa, you're not gonna deliver every single thing that they say, but you're also going to recognize patterns and see some consistencies across departments. We're like, they really need this. And listening to your clients or customers. I'm not a let's put it in a box and like do it because every company has specialties and nuances and if you really want to move something. you have to dig into each of them. But overall I would say I guess one thing universally just pay attention to your people. Just learn them. Know them. Mickey Anderson: that's one of the things, and not to boost your ego here too much, but like that's one of the things I love most about you is that you don't put it in a box. You don't try and slap it into a template you really do see the person, the organization, the team, the structure for what it is, and you mold and adapt to that need, which I think is so needed today. Emily Schneider: Well, I appreciate that. That's very kind of you. But my first word was me do. It wasn't mom or dad and I have never been a conformist. I like everything that's just on the outside. Mickey Anderson: For the listeners who are like, Who is this Emily? We need to get to know her, we need to learn more and find her online. Can you give the listeners a little bit about you, the companies you work with and where they can find you online? Emily Schneider: yeah you can find me on LinkedIn. you can find me on my website If you're looking for a strategic partner or you're looking for a fractional COO, I'd encourage you to reach out, if nothing more, than to get some guidance and are you even in the right spot and are you ready now? Am I the right fit? I typically work with companies that fall within that $10 million to about a hundred million dollar range. I work with startups as well. I try to look at where I feel like I can do the most good for an organization. Mickey Anderson: amazing conversation. I know the listeners have gained a ton. We covered a a lot, but I think they were the foundations. They really were the the core pillars of what's gonna really move the needle for your business. thank you for listening. Please make sure to subscribe and follow and share this episode with anyone, especially those founders who need that thought partner and some guardrails put into place to keep them moving in the right direction. We'll see you next time.