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Pride: Fear, Courage and Creating Inclusive Businesses – A Discussion with Chris Lyon · Responsibly Different™

• 0:02
  Chris Lyon: We need the capacity of allies, we need the capacity of the next generation to be able to sustain, because it's been ongoing and will be an ongoing struggle for us, and it's about trying to have fun and find some joy in life.
• 0:35
  Benn Marine: Today I share with you my conversation with Chris Lyon, the director of Corporate Impact at Androscoggin Bank and a B Corp leader.
• 0:43
  Benn Marine: I've had the good fortune to meet Chris through the B Corp community and our work with white men for racial justice.
• 0:49
  Benn Marine: We had a candid conversation about fear, authenticity and using business as a force for good.
• 0:55
  Benn Marine: Together, we delve into navigating fear in a season of pride, power, of allyship and the importance of acknowledging humanity in the workplace.
• 1:04
  Benn Marine: Tune in to gain insights on building inclusive businesses, fostering courageous conversations and embracing uncertainty for better outcomes.
• 1:15
  Benn Marine: Alright, well, first off, chris, i want to thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show and to chat with me.
• 1:26
  Benn Marine: Really excited to have you on To get us started.
• 1:29
  Benn Marine: can you share with us a bit about Androscoggin Bank and how you came to be there?
• 1:34
  Benn Marine: Yeah, happy to.
• 1:35
  Chris Lyon: I've been with Androscoggin Bank about two years, and prior to that time I had never heard the name Anders Gaggen and I certainly was not a banker.
• 1:43
  Chris Lyon: but I had had the opportunity to work for a B Corp in Vermont named 7th Generation and over that time had learned about the network of B Corps.
• 1:53
  Chris Lyon: So through just learning about different B Corps in New England, i Androscoggin Bank and learned a little bit about the 153 year old history as well as their recent B Corp certification, and so it was kind of fortuitous for me, as I was thinking about the next fun challenge, to see that they were just beginning their B Corp journey.
• 2:15
  Benn Marine: And I know you've been involved with the B Corp movement for many years.
• 2:19
  Benn Marine: How did you find B Corps and why is working for one so important to you?
• 2:24
  Chris Lyon: Yeah, i think I stumbled into B Corps and probably the gateway connection was values based businesses.
• 2:33
  Chris Lyon: So when I was in college I had worked at the City Market Food Co-op in Burlington, which is a worker cooperative that focuses on the food systems and providing groceries folks in Burlington, and so I learned a lot about the value of emission and the importance of values and those being fully integrated into business.
• 2:54
  Chris Lyon: And as I thought about what was next for me at that point in my career, after just under 10 years, i knew that I wanted to go somewhere that had that commitment to values and that drive towards mission.
• 3:05
  Chris Lyon: So for me I was kind of this part of well then, who's out there and pay attention, and through that process I learned about Seventh Generation and they were looking for a job.
• 3:16
  Chris Lyon: That I actually didn't want necessarily, but it was a company that I wanted to work for And so I kind of took a bet and joined And through Osmosis just got so many amazing experiences that I think were rooted both in the mission at Seventh Gen but more importantly in the values of how a business shows up and the contract that should exist between workers and customers in the world and the business.
• 3:45
  Benn Marine: I'm just curious what did some of that work look like for Seventh Gen?
• 3:48
  Chris Lyon: It started with the focus on the human resources team, with kind of the facilities team and helping them bring some staffing internal to support kind of office events right.
• 4:00
  Chris Lyon: So when you contract out your cleaning staff et cetera, they don't really show up during the day, they show up during the night.
• 4:07
  Chris Lyon: And so I think that the business recognized that there was a better chance to have people who were helping the culture And so I helped form that team And, of course, if you're touching anything related to events and like a business, that is absolutely culture through and through.
• 4:22
  Chris Lyon: And so as we built that team out over time I was given the opportunity to work a little bit more with more formal employee engagement programming and sustainability education and culture education, and just over time it moved into a more mission focused role.
• 4:39
  Chris Lyon: And then, i guess most recently in my time, there was when we were purchased by Unilever And at the time you can imagine that the HR team that we built wasn't as needed from a kind of administrative perspective, but we were able to shift some of those resources over to what we called corporate consciousness, which is our sustainability team, which was great for me.
• 5:04
  Chris Lyon: It's kind of always the job that I wanted And so I joined in that capacity and helped with our social and environmental metrics related to our supply chain, and then had responsibility for helping the organization through the B Corp Impact Assessment recertification process as well.
• 5:22
  Benn Marine: And so we're in Pride Month now.
• 5:23
  Benn Marine: Does Androscoggin Bank have any big Pride plans?
• 5:27
  Chris Lyon: So I would say that we don't have my lovely dog in the background.
• 5:32
  Chris Lyon: We don't have big Pride plans, but I think we have some important Pride plans.
• 5:38
  Chris Lyon: We've chosen to really look internally first and build a little bit of capacity before we kind of make a big splash out in the world, which I think is super important.
• 5:50
  Chris Lyon: So this year we empowered a group of our inclusion and belonging folks, who are all volunteers from the organization, to take on this idea of Pride.
• 6:01
  Chris Lyon: And how do we do it authentically?
• 6:02
  Chris Lyon: And in that process they said well, it has to be some combination of providing learning opportunities for colleagues, getting us out in the community a little bit, just to kind of shake off whatever we have in the way of us getting engaged, and then to think about are there other ways, are there other investments that the business can make?
• 6:23
  Chris Lyon: Are there other things that staff want to do?
• 6:27
  Chris Lyon: So we kind of ended with a variety of things and I guess the precipitating event was Pride and Portland, where we haven't had a presence in a number of years, and so we said we really should.
• 6:42
  Chris Lyon: If you look at our values, we want to be a bank for all And that means that we have to be out with all.
• 6:48
  Chris Lyon: And so through that process we kind of committed and reverse engineered and said okay, but it needs to be authentic.
• 6:54
  Chris Lyon: We can't just show up to advertise that we're here.
• 6:59
  Chris Lyon: We want to actually be engaged.
• 7:02
  Chris Lyon: And so the team worked on some internal education And I think one thing I should probably say is more internal learning opportunities rather than education, and that's a nuance one of the team members brought out, michael, said I don't think people want to be educated, i think people want to learn.
• 7:19
  Chris Lyon: And that was just like one of those really powerful moments where you're like, yeah, we're going about it almost right, but it can be better.
• 7:24
  Chris Lyon: So we've announced the Pride parade.
• 7:28
  Chris Lyon: We've had about 35 folks sign up to be part of it.
• 7:32
  Chris Lyon: They're really excited.
• 7:34
  Chris Lyon: And then internally, our communications.
• 7:36
  Chris Lyon: We have the newsletter that's going out.
• 7:39
  Chris Lyon: That has some what is pride?
• 7:41
  Chris Lyon: kind of factual learning What do the colors mean And why is allyship important, and all kind of like light, touch, lean in opportunities for folks in case it's new to them or they don't understand it or they have some hesitation, for whatever reason that might be there.
• 7:59
  Benn Marine: That's so cool And I feel like that learning piece is so important.
• 8:06
  Benn Marine: It's so important.
• 8:06
  Benn Marine: I'm curious what has that looked like?
• 8:09
  Benn Marine: You mentioned it was a nuanced suite.
• 8:12
  Benn Marine: Sounds more like a reframing of how you think about it, but how has that kind of impacted the way you all are moving through it?
• 8:22
  Benn Marine: I'm just thinking for other folks that are listening.
• 8:24
  Benn Marine: that might be like oh yes, that is resonating with them as well.
• 8:28
  Chris Lyon: Yeah, i mean, i think the outcome that I'm seeing from folks is that it is clicking for them in a way that when you support an event and you figure out if you need to have a table, the functional pieces of showing up are kind of typical.
• 8:46
  Chris Lyon: We show up to an event, we tell folks who we are, but you can really see that something different is clicking for folks And they're choosing to share their own stories.
• 8:55
  Chris Lyon: And even to the point of though I might have had a hand in the learning side getting us started, it wasn't me that was sharing on our weekly call with all staff on Fridays about the opportunity, it was three street allies and them sharing their reason why.
• 9:14
  Chris Lyon: And so there's a different connection to the work than if you employed somebody to come up with the event and then execute the event.
• 9:22
  Chris Lyon: And I think that's the thing that I see that's kind of changing most is the click.
• 9:28
  Chris Lyon: It just makes sense and it feels right.
• 9:30
  Chris Lyon: And if it feels right, then people will show up differently and then they'll show up for more.
• 9:34
  Chris Lyon: So we kind of see this as the first and a number of different events that we'll do, and it's kind of the test case for us to say how does it work, how does it flow through the organization?
• 9:44
  Chris Lyon: What's engaging, what feels right?
• 9:47
  Chris Lyon: How do we sustain it when it comes around to next year?
• 9:50
  Chris Lyon: And we've had three or four more other touch points related to inclusion and belonging.
• 9:54
  Chris Lyon: That's amazing.
• 9:55
  Benn Marine: That's amazing.
• 9:56
  Benn Marine: I'm curious what does pride mean to you?
• 10:00
  Chris Lyon: I think that's been ever evolving.
• 10:02
  Chris Lyon: So I grew up in central Vermont, kind of living on the side of a mountain in a log cabin, and though there was diversity in my community, i don't think that people really talked a whole lot about what they brought to the table in terms of diversity.
• 10:18
  Chris Lyon: So for me as a kid it was scary.
• 10:21
  Chris Lyon: I was not out.
• 10:23
  Chris Lyon: I was not sure whether I ever would be out.
• 10:27
  Chris Lyon: I was trying to fit in.
• 10:29
  Chris Lyon: My friends were all great, but you just wonder if you'll lose folks by being who you are when so many of the messages we receive are not affirming.
• 10:39
  Chris Lyon: So.
• 10:40
  Chris Lyon: Pride has meant different things to me.
• 10:41
  Chris Lyon: Pride used to be scary And as I've grown up it's been more just recognizing that.
• 10:47
  Chris Lyon: It's that journey for me where I'm kind of like this is great.
• 10:51
  Chris Lyon: I feel much more comfortable with who I am.
• 10:53
  Chris Lyon: I'm married, i have a great, lovely life, and now it's more of a reminder to look back and appreciate the hard work of those before me, and I think that's probably where I'm most currently sitting at.
• 11:08
  Chris Lyon: The tension point of is honoring the past while also not waiting for the future and just trying to find ways that I can invite other people in, because we need the capacity of allies, we need the capacity of the next generation to be able to sustain, because it's been ongoing and will be an ongoing struggle for us for a number of years.
• 11:28
  Chris Lyon: And aside from all of that, it's about trying to have fun and find some joy in life and share that with others.
• 11:34
  Chris Lyon: So I'm sure there's many that will, at the Pride parade, experience a different form of joy than they have before, and I think we all deserve that.
• 11:42
  Benn Marine: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 11:43
  Benn Marine: I'm curious how do you feel about Pride kind of in general and how we as a business community think about Pride, but also, like as a society, how we think about Pride?
• 11:57
  Chris Lyon: It's challenging.
• 11:58
  Chris Lyon: I think it's wonderful that we have this thing called Pride Month.
• 12:02
  Chris Lyon: I think it's amazing that the stories of why it exists are continuing to be told across different industries, groups, family settings, whatever it may be, and I think there's also some tension of how do businesses show up year-round And I don't think that's unique to Pride.
• 12:19
  Chris Lyon: I think that would be Black History Month And great that we're focused on that for February and doing some learning.
• 12:26
  Chris Lyon: But are we showing up in a way that our employees are really proud of, how we acknowledge not only their existence but the challenges and struggles that they might face because they happen to be gay or of a different color or differently abled, whatever the challenge may be?
• 12:43
  Chris Lyon: So I think it's like this tentative.
• 12:47
  Chris Lyon: I'm so glad we have Pride Month And if you have just another second, i'd like to talk about how we can do more and make it even deeper and make it lasting, and I think that's just something I carry and people are more and more open to, which is really exciting.
• 13:02
  Benn Marine: Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:03
  Benn Marine: What would that look like?
• 13:05
  Benn Marine: What would you like to see that look like?
• 13:08
  Chris Lyon: Yeah, i mean I think locally, which I think is part of where I've tried to really put my energy, because it's so hard on a kind of national level to feel like you even get a chance to have some discussions.
• 13:20
  Chris Lyon: You're constantly in a defense mode.
• 13:22
  Chris Lyon: But locally, i think it would be employers putting in the extra effort to give away a little bit of power to employees who are from those groups, and one way for a business might be an employee resource group, and the challenge with that is you could stand up an employee resource group and not actually give power to anyone And you could do more harm than good.
• 13:42
  Chris Lyon: But I think encouraging our leaders, especially in business, to take the learning chair, like sit down and learn.
• 13:48
  Chris Lyon: You have employees who will tell you what's working, what's not working, and they've probably had experiences that you may not know about, because they don't want to rock the boat, they want to show up and do their job.
• 13:59
  Chris Lyon: So I think that that would be great And some collaboration, coordination too, thinking about advocacy and what that looks like.
• 14:07
  Chris Lyon: Are there different bills that are coming up locally?
• 14:10
  Chris Lyon: that would benefit from the voice of the company.
• 14:13
  Chris Lyon: How do you engage your employees in understanding those, not just as a company signing off, but actually creating the space for colleagues to learn and to decide where they stand and then to advocate if they, if they so choose.
• 14:26
  Chris Lyon: I love that.
• 14:29
  Benn Marine: I'm curious, being in the business space, what are some policies that you've seen businesses institute that you were like wow, that's impressive.
• 14:37
  Benn Marine: Or things that they're doing to support LGBTQ plus workers that are really going above and beyond, if any.
• 14:45
  Chris Lyon: Yeah, i mean I think there's so many ways that an employer can both signal and then support the costs, whatever that might mean to them.
• 14:57
  Chris Lyon: I think it's really useful for some organizations to look at the equality index, and typically larger organizations benefit from that more, just because of the way in which it functions.
• 15:11
  Chris Lyon: But thinking about, like, how friendly are we in?
• 15:14
  Chris Lyon: and going through and looking at the individual policies, i think for a smaller organization it might be just making sure that in the inclusion and belonging space or the DEI space, you're doing an assessment of your policies And so the only way to change a policy is to understand what about it isn't working for certain folks and just in personal experience knowing that, not at one of my employers but of my spouse's employer, they really struggled for a while with taking the gender out of family leave when a kid was joining the home, right.
• 15:49
  Chris Lyon: So whether you adopt or whether you have a child, there's a lot of gendered language in there, so it became really clear that it's not quite the same as just being a dad.
• 16:00
  Chris Lyon: And then again we can talk about paternity versus maternity and like how to honor the real challenge of maternity while also acknowledging that multiple parents if they're in the picture are important to feel supported in this.
• 16:13
  Chris Lyon: So I think just taking the time to really assess with an open mind, engaging with employees that's far more important to me than having the shiny policy, because the shiny policy will come, but the way in which you get there is, i think, much, much more important.
• 16:29
  Benn Marine: That makes a lot of sense.
• 16:30
  Benn Marine: What would?
• 16:32
  Benn Marine: what do you think would be and I feel like you've touched on this a little bit but how would you like to see businesses engaging with pride?
• 16:39
  Benn Marine: You mentioned earlier that it's not just a symbolic gesture, but that there's more to that.
• 16:46
  Benn Marine: Can expand on that a little bit, and how like what that would look?
• 16:52
  Chris Lyon: like Yeah, i mean, i think it looks different for each organization.
• 16:55
  Chris Lyon: And just back to the B Corp kind of identity piece, one of the things I most appreciate is that B Corp's each have to find their way through the question of what does it mean for us as business And what does it mean for me as an employee to be part of the B Corp, and so I would encourage each organization to think that way when they think about pride, which is, why are we showing up in this space, or feeling the need to show up in this space.
• 17:20
  Chris Lyon: Is it because we feel like we're missing market share?
• 17:24
  Chris Lyon: Well, maybe let's talk a little bit longer about what's actually going on or is it that we know that it's something that's really important and people appreciate it?
• 17:33
  Chris Lyon: And, yeah, at some point people start saying I wanna do business with this organization, but it becomes more about thinking about what the right thing is and following that.
• 17:43
  Chris Lyon: So, i think, engaging your employees in the question and saying, hey, do we have any folks in the community that identify as part of the LGBTQ plus community?
• 17:53
  Chris Lyon: And, if so, would you like some support to have a discussion that helps us answer this thing, which is how do we show up authentically, be super simple.
• 18:01
  Chris Lyon: Anybody could send that email on a Tuesday And if you get a response, then thinking about how to support that in the ground rules so that it becomes a rewarding experience for folks.
• 18:12
  Chris Lyon: And I think one thing that's helpful is if you start to frame things, it's kind of grassroots.
• 18:18
  Chris Lyon: That helps people understand you're serious And it's a commitment that they will call you out on which you're not honoring it.
• 18:24
  Chris Lyon: So it's a dangerous term to use in some circles, but ultimately the goal is to say we care about what people think.
• 18:32
  Chris Lyon: Share with us your best ideas.
• 18:35
  Chris Lyon: We're gonna try to support you in that And then we'll go from there.
• 18:40
  Benn Marine: Yeah, i feel like an extension of that, too is really being really building that trust with your teams too right, so that your team knows you mean it when you say we wanna build this with you and we wanna create that dialogue.
• 18:54
  Benn Marine: I love that.
• 18:56
  Benn Marine: Maybe for folks that aren't in leadership roles at businesses or might be self-employed might look like a lot of different things.
• 19:03
  Benn Marine: what are some actions that listeners can take to help support the LGBTQ plus community during Pride And really all year round in a meaningful way in your mind?
• 19:14
  Chris Lyon: Yeah, i mean, i think first is just like trying to understand what you know or don't know And then committing to learning and grow.
• 19:23
  Chris Lyon: And if you're ready for that, then there's a couple of simple things.
• 19:27
  Chris Lyon: One is find out what organizations serving the LGBTQ plus community are doing in the community.
• 19:34
  Chris Lyon: Think about how you can show up with some humility If maybe you don't have the answers or if you're not quite sure you understand the difference between trans and non-binary, and do a little bit of work and apologize if you say something that's offensive.
• 19:49
  Chris Lyon: Seek to learn wherever you can and make sure you spend just as much time after you leave an event or an interaction thinking about that and what went well, and not dwelling on if you said something wrong, but how you might learn from that opportunity and show up next time.
• 20:04
  Chris Lyon: Because I think, ultimately, what people can do that, from my perspective, is really like monumentus, as funny as that sounds is to show up again and again in a space.
• 20:18
  Chris Lyon: Let a group know that you're their ally.
• 20:20
  Chris Lyon: Put a pride flag on your desk If it needs to be one that says ally to make you feel comfortable, then do that Like there's so many ways that you can begin to show folks that you're open to learning, and I think that's far more important than just saying I'm an ally and I'm here without necessarily having the experience to back up what you've done to support.
• 20:40
  Chris Lyon: So it should all be positive and generative and be part of that individual's evolution, and there's so many resources out there that you can just start with Google and the local nonprofits in your community and you're gonna learn a lot, absolutely, love that On this same thread of social justice, I feel like we're in Pride Month.
• 20:59
  Benn Marine: We're talking a lot about Pride and LGBTQ plus community, and it feels like a miss to talk about supporting the LGBTQ plus community without addressing how race intersects with our community and those intersecting identities.
• 21:16
  Benn Marine: I know we're both members of white men for racial justice and you're a steward for the organization.
• 21:20
  Benn Marine: Can you share with the audience a bit about the group and why it's something you are so deeply committed to?
• 21:26
  Chris Lyon: Yeah for sure.
• 21:27
  Chris Lyon: So you know, i guess in the wake of the murder of George Floyd, a lot of you know Americans and people were just wondering like, is there anything I can do?
• 21:39
  Chris Lyon: Where do I go?
• 21:41
  Chris Lyon: And I was invited into this community.
• 21:44
  Chris Lyon: That was taking some time to step through that, and so, you know, i'd always struggled a little bit with just showing up to a march and having the pink hat and feeling like, you know, maybe I'm not really changing anything other than being present.
• 21:59
  Chris Lyon: And so, you know, my time with with WMRJ has been allowing myself the space and the time to understand and unpack all the experiences that I've had as a kid who grew up in Florida for a little while and grew up in Vermont, striking difference in diversity and you know equally unique narratives around race of our neighbors.
• 22:24
  Chris Lyon: What their stories were, were, weren't, and so there's just a lot that we get bombarded with as we're growing up and we're learning, and this group has kind of, you know, taken a little bit of time to stop and pause and learn, to explore how those things come up for us And then to ask, like, how do we not sit there forever?
• 22:42
  Chris Lyon: right, if we want to move to action or advocacy.
• 22:45
  Chris Lyon: How do we do that?
• 22:46
  Chris Lyon: and looking within our own kind of spheres of influence and recognizing that we all have an opportunity to influence, particularly as a, as a, you know, cis white man.
• 22:58
  Chris Lyon: People you know look at me and often assume that I'm in a position of leadership, and so how I show up and the messaging I bring matters.
• 23:05
  Chris Lyon: So it's been super, super enlightening.
• 23:09
  Chris Lyon: I've learned so much.
• 23:10
  Chris Lyon: I was a student of history and anthropology and college and I feel like I didn't learn anything compared to what I've learned through my time with that group.
• 23:19
  Chris Lyon: So it's been really nice to be learning again and to question a lot of the stories that you know, maybe I believed or told myself about race, just to note.
• 23:29
  Chris Lyon: You know, you mentioned the intersectionality as well.
• 23:32
  Chris Lyon: I think it's just super important to recognize that there's a significant number of folks who identify as LGBTQ plus that are also struggling with different parts of their identity, with being black in America or a different color, and each one of those is unique And each one of those is real.
• 23:50
  Chris Lyon: So I'm just trying to show up with a little more humility and WMRJ helps me to do that and to make sure that's focused on my own exploration of self, rather than deciding what action others need of me and then going and doing it without understanding if it's actually needed.
• 24:05
  Chris Lyon: That makes sense.
• 24:06
  Benn Marine: I did too, and I think, building on that, that so much of our queer history has been advanced by queer folks of color just feels so important.
• 24:16
  Benn Marine: You know, something that I've really appreciated about WMRJ and you really, because you're the one who invited me into this community is how vulnerable of a space like folks really are very open and very receptive to learning and growing and self reflecting.
• 24:36
  Benn Marine: And with this being Pride Month, i've been talking to a lot of folks about navigating fear And I was recently talking with somebody she shared that for her, the almost like the other side of fear is like leaning into vulnerability, which was really interesting, and I feel like you do that really well in this group and you share a lot of yourself with this group.
• 25:01
  Benn Marine: I'm curious and for me as a trans person in this group, i often feel very inspired by that And it often is what gives me the courage to speak up and maybe share my own stories in some of those spaces.
• 25:18
  Benn Marine: Have you always felt really comfortable leaning into that vulnerability Or is that like how?
• 25:25
  Benn Marine: I mean, i'm curious if you have any wisdom for folks there and how to do that, because I don't believe that it's very easy.
• 25:31
  Benn Marine: I feel like it's very challenging and you do it with grace.
• 25:38
  Chris Lyon: I think I've always been somebody who's been aware of kind of the impact of different things in life on me, which means I'm often sensitive to the impact of things in life on others.
• 25:52
  Chris Lyon: And so you know, i recognize that a number of years ago, i don't know, maybe it was even back to like high school or college that you know, most of us are just like seeking an authentic connection, whether we're stalking the shelves at a grocery store or whether we're talking about race, and so it's just worked really, really well for me to unpack my own stuff by just being really blatantly clear about, like, what's going on with me.
• 26:19
  Chris Lyon: And I think that you know the shadow side of that is that you know I might be considered an oversharer by some, which is, you know, often uncomfortable for folks.
• 26:29
  Chris Lyon: The thing that's been really wonderful about WMRJ is that we're fostering that vulnerability and that sense of space So I can actually be my truest, most authentic self with that group in a way that maybe I meter or change in everyday life.
• 26:46
  Chris Lyon: And that's okay, because everybody who is at WMRJ has signed up for that contract a little bit.
• 26:52
  Chris Lyon: This is a space where we're going to be real And not to suggest that you know my other spaces aren't real but you know it's business and we're busy and it's community building and we're busy And so you know, getting those moments, increasing space for those moments, requires a little more effort in there.
• 27:10
  Chris Lyon: So, yeah, i think I've always been sensitive and I would credit my mom with always kind of instilling the importance of, you know, thinking about our impact and a little bit of spirituality, which has helped me kind of work on that over time.
• 27:23
  Chris Lyon: But at the end of the day I show up and it's so funny sometimes people are like wow, i really appreciated that.
• 27:29
  Chris Lyon: That connected.
• 27:30
  Chris Lyon: And that's not the internal story my brain is telling me as I'm saying things.
• 27:34
  Chris Lyon: I'm like this is disconnected and a little bit fuzzy and maybe doesn't make sense.
• 27:38
  Chris Lyon: But I actually think that some of that's the most valuable exchange that we can have with folks is to be not perfect, but I'm real.
• 27:46
  Benn Marine: Yeah, that's super real.
• 27:47
  Benn Marine: And I'm curious too.
• 27:48
  Benn Marine: the other thing that's been coming up just for me in this like season of pride, you know, just giving the current political landscape and the over 470 some odd anti LGBTQ bills that are out there and I think it's like 70 plus or whatever have passed is just fear and navigating fear, and I think it's something that I've been in recent months just like really struggling with and I'm curious if that ever, if, like fear, is ever like present for you and if and when it is like, how do you navigate that?
• 28:22
  Benn Marine: How do you, how do you move through that?
• 28:25
  Chris Lyon: Yeah, I mean I think I wouldn't be human right now if I wasn't feeling a little bit of threat and fear, because there's certainly a lot of signals that that tell me that some of the world is not safe for me.
• 28:39
  Chris Lyon: And I see it in times like I don't know how many times the typical folks, person, types in vacation, So many vacation spots in February, we're all feeling it.
• 28:54
  Chris Lyon: Mine is gay friendly or gay safe destinations that are sunny in February, and it whittles down the group, you know the group of possibilities pretty quick, I think.
• 29:04
  Chris Lyon: Another, you know time and I'd say that's fear based right, especially if you're far from home.
• 29:08
  Chris Lyon: Home is comfort, home is safety.
• 29:09
  Chris Lyon: But even if you look at home, we moved into our house and you know we love it.
• 29:15
  Chris Lyon: It's amazing.
• 29:15
  Chris Lyon: It's a, you know, really really friendly set of neighbors And we have a flagpole on our garage, And so the question becomes well, you've got a flagpole, what flag do you put up?
• 29:26
  Chris Lyon: And the reality is, you know, we we in my house, with my husband, we've talked time and time again about whether we want to put a target on ourselves, And so it's this really personal thing of we don't care for neighbors across the street.
• 29:39
  Chris Lyon: Know that we're two men in a loving relationship, But do we need to let everybody who you know drives by, know what if somebody you know isn't feeling like they're supportive, Like, do we want to add that in there?
• 29:52
  Chris Lyon: And I think that's one of the most complex questions that we've been wrestling with and that I've been wrestling with, And I'd equate it, too, to something that I experienced when we were down in down in Alabama and in Selma, Just thinking about the fact that we're here and we need to, you know, remind people that we're here, because to do so actually denies ourselves of our own humanity And it doesn't create an invite in for folks And it's scary.
• 30:23
  Chris Lyon: And so I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about that lately.
• 30:27
  Chris Lyon: And you know, we recently put out really super cute, like state of Maine, the Durago type flag that just has a little, you know, border And it's a little bit more, you know, subtle And it feels good And it's practice And it's us building a little bit of, I guess, evidence that it's okay to share your identity, It's okay to be who you are, But we certainly didn't start with the big flag up on the garage And, who knows, we may or may not get there And I think that's, you know, in every individual's right to go through that journey.
• 31:03
  Chris Lyon: The hope is that they just spend some time thinking about it.
• 31:07
  Chris Lyon: Like flags are often weaponized in this world And for me it's more like oh no, this is who we are And it's cute and looks great in the garden And you know, it's never as simple as that.
• 31:18
  Benn Marine: Yeah, that's super surreal And thank you so much for sharing that.
• 31:21
  Benn Marine: I know I feel like that trip to to Montgomery and Summa was was really special For folks listening.
• 31:27
  Benn Marine: Wmrj does these learning journey trips.
• 31:30
  Benn Marine: We recently were down in Montgomery visiting historic sites and really doing some of that deep work And I had a big moment there that I feel like you kind of that.
• 31:41
  Benn Marine: You kind of like gave me this like opportunity to step into, of kind of coming out to the group as trans, because I hadn't up to that point and I'd been in the group for like six months and I'd just been terrified to I don't know why.
• 31:52
  Benn Marine: But yeah, and I'm typically a very out person, i'm a very you know it's not a, it's not like a big secret that I'm trans, but I do very vividly recall after that, after sharing, that the amount of love and support was overwhelming and then actually really feeling like I could relax and like really show up authentically And it was really the first time that I've ever kind of not been out in a space and because I've just been very fortunate, just like with places I've lived and worked and it's just, it's something that's always I've always just been very out about And it was the first time I really realized, oh, this is the difference in being able to show up authentically or not, and so like it, yeah.
• 32:36
  Benn Marine: So anyway, i just want to say thank you.
• 32:38
  Benn Marine: Thank you for that, because that was really powerful for me.
• 32:41
  Benn Marine: Any tips or advice for folks looking to use business as a force for good.
• 32:48
  Chris Lyon: Scaling back a little bit, looking at bigger picture in this B Corp community Yeah, i mean, i think for the leaders, remember that every hour that you invest in learning a little bit more of what your employees are actually thinking, actually experiencing, is going to come back as probably five to 10 hours saved when it comes to productivity.
• 33:14
  Chris Lyon: like not to bean count, but like if leaders are on the edge and this feels a little bit squishy and unsure and it's not as clean of a metric or objective to say, oh, if we do X, we'll get Y.
• 33:26
  Chris Lyon: Just remember that you're investing in people and when you're investing in people, you'll do better by acknowledging their humanity and spending some time there before you move on to the next thing.
• 33:38
  Chris Lyon: And I think for employees or colleagues, it's being thoughtful about the questions that you ask of your organization, knowing there's always a power dynamic, but trying to get courageous to say what are we doing?
• 33:53
  Chris Lyon: related to X, whether it's Pride Month, whether it's support for LGBTQ folks and seeing the value that the ally should bring, but more importantly to kind of what you just talked about, ben, the relief that happens for an employee who might be part of a group that's been historically oppressed or excluded when somebody else stands up for you, and so my hope is just that people in general view allyship as an employee is an opportunity and part of good business and find their place doing that, even though it's hard, because it's super, super valuable.
• 34:32
  Chris Lyon: and again back to that part of we can build businesses that support multiple stakeholders, that understand and wrestle together with the tension of doing all this while still running a business.
• 34:45
  Chris Lyon: The outcome is going to be great.
• 34:47
  Benn Marine: Absolutely.
• 34:48
  Benn Marine: Anything else you'd like to share, add parting wisdom.
• 34:54
  Chris Lyon: I guess parting wisdom might be remembering that we all don't have the answers In fact, no one of us has all the answers And just showing up with a little bit of awareness of that.
• 35:07
  Chris Lyon: When I joined the bank, i remember feeling really good because I could have been pulled into that trap of, hey, i'm a new leader, i need to make sure that everybody knows I've got the answers, and whether this was evolution, growth or just chance, i remember people saying, so what are we going to do?
• 35:28
  Chris Lyon: And just feeling really comfortable saying I don't actually know, but it's going to be a really good conversation And I'm looking forward to everything you've got to share.
• 35:37
  Chris Lyon: So I think somewhere in there is just helping people remind themselves that they don't have to have the answers.
• 35:43
  Chris Lyon: In fact, you have a far better conversation when you enter with a little less certainty And they're usually really good conversations that give you gas to go through the next thing, and I think that's super important And maybe we should change that to say, have the batteries to go to the next thing.
• 35:59
  Chris Lyon: Right, because the world's changing.
• 36:01
  Chris Lyon: We need knowledge.
• 36:01
  Chris Lyon: It's not all about having a fast car anymore, it's about having a sustainable vehicle.
• 36:06
  Chris Lyon: So, all right, now I'm spinning off into the other topics that we could talk about.
• 36:11
  Chris Lyon: But, yeah, just remembering, we don't have to have the answers.
• 36:14
  Chris Lyon: In fact, we have better conversations when we admit that we don't.
• 36:23
  Benn Marine: Thanks so much for tuning into this series.
• 36:25
  Benn Marine: If you want to learn more about Andrew Scoggin, bank Seventh Generation or White Men for racial justice, i've provided links to all three in the show notes for you.
• 36:33
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• 36:37
  Benn Marine: It helps more folks like yourself find this content.
• 36:41
  Benn Marine: Till next time, be responsibly different.
• 36:44
  Benn Marine: This episode was produced by yours truly, ben Marine, with music from B Corp certified Marmoset Music.
• 36:53
  Benn Marine: To learn more about responsibly different, visit responsiblydifferentcom.
• 36:58
  Benn Marine: This podcast channel is a production of the B Corp certified and 1% for the planet.
• 37:03
  Benn Marine: Member media consultancy Deerigo Collective.
• 37:06
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• 37:09
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