Latest / Mortgage Marketing Radio / Secrets to Building Your Personal Brand on Social Media with Arjun Dhingra

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Secrets to Building Your Personal Brand on Social Media with Arjun Dhingra · Mortgage Marketing Radio

• 0:00
  In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with
• 0:04
  the real estate agents is essential for success.
• 0:06
  However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge.
• 0:11
  With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents, it
• 0:15
  can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections.
• 0:20
  Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Cogill is a must-read.
• 0:25
  Chris has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals.
• 0:31
  And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships
• 0:34
  with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business.
• 0:39
  To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy
• 0:45
  of the case study today.
• 0:47
  You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million
• 0:52
  in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can, too.
• 0:56
  Don't miss out.
• 0:57
  Go check it out right now.
• 0:58
  Visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today.
• 1:03
  Hey, listeners, what's up?
• 1:10
  It's Jeff.
• 1:11
  It's them for welcome to the latest episode of mortgage marketing radio podcast.
• 1:15
  Are you doing well?
• 1:16
  How is 2021 treating you so far?
• 1:20
  How are you treating 2021?
• 1:21
  Are you staying on track?
• 1:22
  Are you on target?
• 1:23
  I hope so.
• 1:24
  I'd love to see you guys join us in the Facebook group for the podcast.
• 1:28
  You can go to Facebook, type in mortgage marketing radio.
• 1:31
  And that's where you can find our private group, just for podcast listeners and relevant industry
• 1:37
  providers and thought leaders, if you will.
• 1:40
  And I'd love to see you in there.
• 1:41
  Just to number one, to check in, say hello.
• 1:43
  And number two, we've got some really cool things planned to help you guys in the new
• 1:47
  year, with certain skills that you want to learn, certain technology you want to adapt
• 1:53
  and put and consider putting in your business.
• 1:56
  Some best practices.
• 1:57
  We're going to be doing some lives in there.
• 1:58
  So featuring some special guests and stuff.
• 2:00
  So it's just another place, I think, if you're looking to go deeper or continue the conversation
• 2:04
  from here from the podcast, go check that out.
• 2:07
  Facebook, as a matter of fact, URL, I'll bet you, if I type it in, Facebook.com, I'm doing
• 2:13
  this real-time live.
• 2:14
  It's been a while since I tried this.
• 2:17
  Oh, so go to Facebook and search for mortgage marketing radio.
• 2:25
  And you will be presented with, if you're not yet a member, be presented with a couple
• 2:29
  of questions.
• 2:31
  And once you've successfully answered those questions, you can join, by the way, the URL I was
• 2:37
  looking for, it's facebook.com slash groups slash mortgage marketing radio.
• 2:41
  We'll put it in the show notes to make it easy to click.
• 2:44
  I was tough to get through, huh?
• 2:45
  All right.
• 2:46
  So my special guest today, somebody who I've been admiring from a distance, not only because
• 2:52
  he's a fine handsome young man, but also because his content is off the hook, off the
• 2:58
  shizzle.
• 2:59
  That's right.
• 3:00
  I'm talking about Arjun Dingra, who is in San Francisco Bay area.
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  His brother was previously on this podcast, Neil.
• 3:09
  You may have heard of him.
• 3:10
  You may follow Neil.
• 3:11
  I suggest you do as well.
• 3:12
  But really dig Arjun in terms of what he's done, and regarding a personal brand.
• 3:18
  And some of the pivots and shifts he's made, both pre and post COVID.
• 3:23
  One of the things you'll hear him talk about, and I know you guys probably face this as
• 3:26
  much as any of us do, and that is this is being put into a commodity.
• 3:31
  And what you'll hear is Arjun talk about up in that Bay area, by the way, if you're not
• 3:35
  aware of the Bay area of California, hyper, hyper competitive, one of the most competitive
• 3:39
  markets in the entire country for real estate mortgage.
• 3:42
  And his point was he was, he was noticing the consistent trend towards being commoditized
• 3:48
  and simply having to deal with the, what's your rate question?
• 3:53
  And it's a question we all face, but I would argue that they up in the Bay area are probably
• 3:58
  a little bit more persistent, indignant, if you will, about asking that question and
• 4:05
  trying to lead the conversation, especially when you get some Silicon Valley, you know,
• 4:09
  execs or, you know, engineer types, you know, that are making a lot of money and all this
• 4:13
  kind of stuff they feel like, you know, they have the power.
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  But what Arjun has been able to do is create a personal brand that changes the conversation,
• 4:22
  changes the positioning for him, changes how people see him through his content that he's
• 4:27
  provided so that he can minimize and mitigate and reduce people wanting to engage on a
• 4:34
  price conversation, instead they're engaging on an advice conversation.
• 4:40
  And that has led to some pretty significant success for Arjun and his branch and his
• 4:45
  team and his company and all that up there.
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  So if you don't yet follow him, I strongly encourage you to follow him.
• 4:53
  We're going to put a link to his Instagram profile in the show notes, get this.
• 4:59
  He has 132,000 followers on Instagram.
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  That's right, 132,000.
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  That is deserves another, that deserves a James Brown right there.
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  That's incredible.
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  So you can hear about how he did that, what his strategy was around that, how he engages,
• 5:19
  how he's built a network of real estate agents and consumers to follow him.
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  We're going to break down his number of sources of business, his structure for creating
• 5:28
  content, recording and putting, putting it out there and being able to manage all that
• 5:32
  as well as running a busy mortgage practice.
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  And I think to take away from this conversation, if you're looking to level up your social
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  media game, get a little bit more understanding about a personal brand, what it means and
• 5:41
  how you can identify what yours is, this would be the conversation for you.
• 5:46
  And then of course, before we close out, once again, it's no surprise whenever I interview
• 5:50
  top producers, they at some point in the conversation talk about helping agents, educating agents
• 5:57
  to create a differentiation for you as a loan officer.
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  And one of the ways our June does it is through content, video content, educational classes,
• 6:05
  events, moving his content for teaching agents online, right, to a virtual setting like
• 6:12
  a Zoom or whatnot.
• 6:13
  And so here's the thing guys, have you heard by now?
• 6:16
  You know that I help you do that.
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  We have an entire educational platform, a library of turnkey done for you classes that
• 6:22
  are zoom friendly, ready to go with all the relevant assets to help you promote it on
• 6:27
  social media.
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  Facebook image, the Instagram image, the Instagram story image.
• 6:31
  We are giving you the emails.
• 6:32
  We're giving you the talking points, the PowerPoints, the speaker notes, the handouts, the giveaways,
• 6:36
  the transcript, a video tutorial of me, right, train the trainer showing you how to teach
• 6:41
  this class over Zoom.
• 6:42
  I mean, what's your excuse?
• 6:45
  Want to go check it out?
• 6:46
  Do so.
• 6:47
  Go to mortgagemarketing.pro where you can learn more.
• 6:49
  Watch a brief video I put up and you decide if it's for you or not.
• 6:53
  Question is, how are you going to consistently get in front of agents in that value, right?
• 6:56
  That's where I can help you.
• 6:57
  All right, so without further ado, let's get into this week's show.
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  Are you going to welcome to the show?
• 7:03
  Hey, brother, thanks for having me on, man.
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  Long time coming, man.
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  I should have had you on sooner.
• 7:08
  Yeah, for sure.
• 7:09
  It's all right, man.
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  I mean, you've had, you've had my brother on in a number of other good friends.
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  So I've been a big fan of the podcast from my father.
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  Your brother, he just, he just wore me down.
• 7:18
  He begged me.
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  He's like, no, I'm just kidding.
• 7:20
  He didn't.
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  He can be persistent.
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  So, so what are the odds of that?
• 7:24
  You and your brother, Neil, for those listening, both in the mortgage business, I mean, was that
• 7:28
  just by chance?
• 7:30
  Kind of, I mean, you know, we, we fell into the bit, the industry kind of by accident, you
• 7:36
  know, in a hot market in 2001, 2002, right around the time, we were all getting ready
• 7:43
  to leave college.
• 7:44
  Yeah.
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  And I had some friends that were from Las Vegas, we were all up in Reno, myself, my brother
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  and another partner who joined us initially.
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  And some friends that were in the industry down in Vegas and these guys were doing really
• 7:57
  well.
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  And this was before the last big run up in the market.
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  And we all got and got curious, we're kind of helping them a little bit from afar, you
• 8:06
  know, doing some like legwork and getting paid per application and picking up paperwork
• 8:11
  and hand sign 1003s.
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  I mean, this is, I'm really myself here, but we just kind of decided, you know what, let's,
• 8:18
  see if we can do this all on our own.
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  And that was, when it was very easy to open up an office and become fully licensed, you
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  know, a fax machine was involved in one piece of paper and the secretary of state was on
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  the other end and the rest was history.
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  So we did that.
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  We did that and started an office all together, kind of all operating in different lanes.
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  The three of us as partners, but yeah, it was, I guess the odds were not, not high for
• 8:40
  that kind of an outcome, but that's the way, that's the way it went down.
• 8:44
  Well, wasn't that also the competition, I might be wrong on this, less at that time,
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  or are there less people chasing the same business?
• 8:51
  Totally.
• 8:52
  There were, but it quickly flooded because the barrier to entry was next to nothing.
• 8:57
  Yeah.
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  With real estate on, you know, on the brokerage side as well as the lending side.
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  So there were brokers popping up right left and center.
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  It was clearly a hot sector that was carrying the economy, almost too hot from the get-go.
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  But yeah, it, you know, it initially might have felt like there was in a lot, but that
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  quickly changed and we felt competition on all ends and everyone thought it from each
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  other.
• 9:20
  Yeah.
• 9:21
  That's, that's very interesting.
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  It's similar to like, you know, everybody knows you never, you don't wake up and say
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  I want to be a loan officer, but it was similar past to me.
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  We were talking before we hit record my previous, you know, background doing presentations
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  for Tony Robbins.
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  Yeah.
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  And I had to stop traveling on the road and stuff.
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  I, you know, had to make a decision.
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  What was I going to do?
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  Right?
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  Obviously, I wanted to be in sales and one of this like upside of income.
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  And, you know, I was just looking at, hmm, mortgage and real estate.
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  And of course, I knew real estate and, you know, the usual emotional attachments that
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  comes with like when you bring up real estate agents, right?
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  We know it's a mixed bag.
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  There's good bad enough.
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  But with the loan officers, the one thing that always struck me, I was like, year after
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  year, we go back to these offices and I'm like, man, these guys were just making money.
• 10:04
  Yeah.
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  Over and over again.
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  And I'm like, year after year after year.
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  And so that for me was the genesis to why I got in the industry originally.
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  But you are doing some pretty amazing things from what I can tell on social media, man.
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  I've been following you for a long time.
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  Your contents off the hook.
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  Thank you.
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  So give us a sense of here we are recording this.
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  We are January 2021.
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  What did last year look like for you for units and volume?
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  And by the way, you should tell people where you're at as well.
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  Yeah.
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  So I'm part of a team essentially with, you know, with others.
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  I mean, I do my own production out here, but really is more based around sales and business
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  development.
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  So it's hard to pinpoint an exact number in terms of units and volume because we're
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  actually telling that now since some of it feeds to different teams.
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  But, you know, I've been in the industry for 20 years, you know, talking about where
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  I came from and how we all formed our little partnership myself, my brother and, uh,
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  and another partner.
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  But I've been in the Bay Area market because I came out here maybe about two or three years
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  into our, into our, you know, launch of our, of our, you know, partnership to expand
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  our office and, and our reach and presence.
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  And I'd wanted to, you know, move to the city.
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  So I moved to San Francisco around that time and I would go back and forth between both
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  markets.
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  But I've been in the, in the Bay Area market now for about 17 years on and off, dominantly
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  working with either first time buyers, entry level buyers, uh, or individuals that are
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  just finally looking to crack the market.
• 11:25
  Um, but that's my, uh, that's my space and, you know, and, and who I've been, who I've
• 11:30
  been primarily catering to.
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  So you're out there sourcing business for yourself, for your team, both, yeah, both
• 11:36
  both, yeah, um, but, you know, that's a very competitive market out here.
• 11:42
  And, you know, 2020 was a very interesting year in terms of what it's, what it showed
• 11:47
  everyone that, you know, there's been all this talk and your podcast has obviously had
• 11:52
  so many people that have been preaching the same thing.
• 11:54
  There's a very similar undercurrent, which is that, you know, you've got to have a brand,
• 11:57
  you've got to be putting out something that's personable, that's authentic, that's relatable,
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  that's going to reach people at scale as opposed to just kind of sitting back and letting
• 12:06
  this go by as some kind of phase that you're maybe just, you know, not comfortable with
• 12:10
  or you're like, ah, it'll pass, you know, that everyone trying to do stuff online, that's
• 12:14
  not really a big deal and it's still going to come down to hosting open houses and knocking
• 12:19
  on doors and networking the old fashioned way, which sure there's a time and place for,
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  but if 2020 taught everybody anything, it was that you can't be silent online anymore.
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  You know, if you didn't have a brand or something that was running for you or had some,
• 12:32
  some legs behind it, you got really stuck and you're scratching your head wondering how
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  am I going to get around this?
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  But you noticed others who were online and who were voicing their, you know, voicing
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  their business and putting things out that they didn't miss a beat.
• 12:47
  If anything, 2020 was a year of exponential growth in terms of volume and transactions
• 12:52
  and relationships created and forged and same in the lending space as well.
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  So I think that's, that was the big takeaway from last year and we're obviously just going
• 12:59
  to continue doing more of it here into 2021 and beyond.
• 13:03
  Yeah, it's a good point and reminds me of some of the classes that I was teaching last
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  year, particularly during the height of like the lockdowns and all that stuff, which was
• 13:12
  basically beating that drum of, you know, how everybody has an excuse of why they haven't
• 13:17
  done the pivot, if you will, of like getting on social or using video or whatever.
• 13:24
  And so the point of that was, I think what you're trying to illustrate is that's the only
• 13:29
  choice we had.
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  All you had was your mobile phone or your computer, you don't, you couldn't be people
• 13:35
  face to face anymore.
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  So the, to your point, it's like survival of the fittest is, is not the whole truth.
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  It's survival of the most adaptable.
• 13:43
  Those are actually when and so the question I think we're, we're leading to here is have
• 13:48
  you adapted because I'm sure you're seeing everybody listening to this right now or watching
• 13:53
  some of the changes that happened because of COVID aren't necessarily going away, you
• 13:59
  know what I mean?
• 14:00
  In terms of expectation for the ability to connect with people online virtually to look
• 14:05
  at a tour 10 homes virtually instead of in person, you know, the whole digitization
• 14:10
  of the mortgage per all that kind of stuff, it's accelerating all because of COVID.
• 14:14
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:15
  In every industry, right?
• 14:16
  I think you look at the medical field.
• 14:18
  How many, you know, initial consults did they start doing now online and virtually that's
• 14:24
  not going to change?
• 14:26
  Why would you ever go back into a doctor's office for an initial consult or a chat like this
• 14:29
  when we could just sit at home and do it?
• 14:31
  A doctor can now knock out 10, 20 of these in a day versus having people physically come
• 14:36
  in and fill out all that paperwork and then sit there just an conversation that we could
• 14:39
  have had digitally.
• 14:40
  And I'll tell you what, now here's a real world example of that, that, that, you know,
• 14:45
  this, this concept of being a fading winner.
• 14:48
  I lifted that from Tom Ferry, but the point he's making is people are still winning to a
• 14:54
  degree, right?
• 14:55
  These fading winners, meaning you've been around the business long time, you're still,
• 14:58
  you're great at dealing with people, you just haven't have a nice customer database.
• 15:01
  So you're still kind of winning, but you're fading away because you're seeing a relevancy
• 15:06
  every year that goes by that you don't adapt your communication style to the preference
• 15:10
  of people, right?
• 15:12
  And the great example I have for that is speaking of the medical field, I was researching
• 15:16
  a couple of different clinics here for a, a treatment, if you will, and I, you know,
• 15:22
  was communicating with these folks on Facebook, on their Facebook messenger, right?
• 15:26
  And I'm asking you about their treatment and dosages and all this kind of stuff.
• 15:29
  And they, and I said, well, can I just do a phone consult?
• 15:32
  And they're like, we don't do phone consults.
• 15:35
  I'm like, what?
• 15:36
  I'm just chatting with you on messenger, you know?
• 15:40
  Yeah.
• 15:41
  Right.
• 15:42
  But immediately it's just like, well, I'll find another place that does because why do
• 15:45
  I need to drive 20 minutes of cross down, sitting at doctor's office for an hour, just
• 15:49
  to go through the same list of BS, they're going to ask me where it could be done over,
• 15:53
  over a zoom, you know what I mean?
• 15:54
  So to your point, I mean, there's some things that have happened in the wake of COVID that
• 15:58
  just aren't going to change because, you know, every, either the, the industries or the
• 16:02
  businesses or the people themselves individually have recognized that we can, we can scale now,
• 16:08
  you know, using some of these technologies and these platforms.
• 16:11
  And these are more efficient ways to operate.
• 16:14
  So when did you, and we're going to dig a little bit deeper into your social and some
• 16:17
  of the content you're putting out there?
• 16:18
  But when did you, you know, recognize and really get on board with, you know, the content
• 16:25
  that you're putting out on social because your Instagram is on fire, man, and then we're
• 16:29
  going to put links to all your stuff in the show notes.
• 16:31
  But when did that happen?
• 16:32
  So it, I always had a, a presence on social media, but it was never one that was
• 16:38
  actually featuring or pushing a personal brand and tying it back to business.
• 16:41
  I like everyone else had a, you know, a Facebook page that I kept in touch with college
• 16:45
  buddies on and, you know, would, you know, try and date through or, you know, connect
• 16:51
  with people.
• 16:52
  And I have a martial arts background that's international.
• 16:54
  So a lot of the, you know, guys that I would compete against and coach with and the friends
• 16:58
  that I have in various countries that it made the world a lot smaller.
• 17:01
  And then having a LinkedIn presence was just something you had to have as any kind
• 17:04
  of professional.
• 17:05
  It's kind of like a website.
• 17:07
  You have to have it or you don't or if you don't, it's a little bit odd now and you're
• 17:11
  kind of a dinosaur that way.
• 17:12
  So I had presence in all these areas, but I never really fully connected it with my, with
• 17:18
  my professional life.
• 17:19
  It was very personal and it spoke to me.
• 17:21
  It spoke to only the personal sides of me, you know, what I do in my personal time,
• 17:26
  my martial arts background in coaching and formally competing and then also with my family.
• 17:31
  And that was it.
• 17:32
  And about two years ago, my brother who basically had no social presence jumped in and basically
• 17:38
  did what everyone's doing now, but he skipped all the BS that the rest of us spent 20 years
• 17:43
  having a presence with and he just put it all together.
• 17:46
  And that was really inspiring, but he and I attended a Gary Vaynerchuk conference who
• 17:52
  Neil ended up landing a collaboration with there.
• 17:54
  I was at conference.
• 17:56
  Were you at that one?
• 17:57
  When he addressed Gary from the stage?
• 17:59
  Yeah.
• 18:01
  In 2021, yeah.
• 18:02
  So we went, we were there at that one in Miami and then, and then that was it.
• 18:07
  You know, we just kind of recognize that we need to be, this is where we have to be.
• 18:10
  And this is where we're going to scale.
• 18:11
  This is where we're going to really leverage because we both had felt I especially being
• 18:15
  in the barrier market, which is super competitive that I had become absolutely commoditized.
• 18:20
  You know, categorically commoditized, I mean, that was it.
• 18:23
  And people were only seeking me out and asking me, what's your rate?
• 18:26
  And that's it.
• 18:27
  I knew nothing else about me, all of which I knew were far better and more redeeming qualities
• 18:32
  than an interest rate, but I only knew that.
• 18:34
  No one in my audience knew that at all.
• 18:36
  So I went through some iterations.
• 18:38
  I went through some exercises I worked with a branding company to develop what actually
• 18:41
  is a personal brand.
• 18:42
  I went through that exercise, which is a process in and of itself.
• 18:45
  You just don't all of a sudden wake up and start putting out content because you can't
• 18:49
  do that, but it's very obvious when you're doing that.
• 18:51
  So I wanted to have something behind it and have it be a lot more intentional and strategic.
• 18:57
  And that's what I've been doing, and it's a constant evolution, of course, we're still
• 19:00
  doing.
• 19:02
  And how long ago did you make that shift to have a brand and start putting out content
• 19:06
  that connects to your brand and, you know, how long?
• 19:10
  Probably two and a half, almost three years ago now, I'd say, it's been.
• 19:14
  Right.
• 19:15
  And what changes can you report that have happened relevant to the, hey, what's your
• 19:21
  rate?
• 19:22
  How's it now versus before?
• 19:24
  Well, and this kind of ties also into the question that a lot of people ask if they're contemplating
• 19:29
  whether or not to have an online presence is what's the ROI on that?
• 19:31
  What, you know, bottom line, what is it going to do for me, which is the wrong way to approach
• 19:35
  it?
• 19:36
  You'll just only be left disappointed that way.
• 19:37
  So for me, I actually, instead of focusing on the end game, it really helped shore up the
• 19:41
  middle, which was solidifying relationships.
• 19:44
  It helped cement my reputation in a lot of circles.
• 19:48
  It helped me leverage and network.
• 19:50
  So the relationships that I had with either past clients, future clients, prospects, you
• 19:55
  know, rather than me telling you, till I'm blue in the face, what is good about me and
• 20:00
  why you need to work with me, I just needed to show it and I needed to be able to tell
• 20:03
  it in the form of either a story or some form of content or some type of, you know, some
• 20:10
  type of a writing, whatever it might be in copy, whatever it could be, and show that
• 20:14
  and it would end up solidifying relationships that I had because rather than telling people
• 20:18
  about it, they would see it.
• 20:20
  And then it would add instant credibility.
• 20:21
  It would cement the relationship.
• 20:23
  It would further my posture, you know, along in those, in those, in those dynamics, whether
• 20:28
  it was with a real estate agent or a client.
• 20:30
  And so that's where really the dividends kind of really came in.
• 20:34
  It opened a lot of doors.
• 20:35
  And then I found that in networking this way, as opposed to physically networking, which
• 20:40
  I've always been a big fan of and there will always be an element of even post-COVID,
• 20:43
  whatever form that might be.
• 20:45
  But I can shake hundreds of not thousands of digital hands, being online as opposed to,
• 20:50
  you know, trying to actually physically do it by attending this luncheon and that luncheon
• 20:55
  and hosting an event, which all of which are fine and great.
• 20:57
  You should have an element of that in your mix, but this was just really where I could
• 21:01
  scale up.
• 21:02
  So that's where I've seen the return.
• 21:04
  That's where I've seen.
• 21:05
  And of course, it's resulted in net, you know, in some gains bottom line here, net net.
• 21:11
  Who is, I'm on your Instagram looking at some of the posts and the, you know, the content
• 21:15
  of those posts.
• 21:16
  Who is your content on Instagram, ideally targeting or attempting to grab interest from?
• 21:21
  So that's a great question tonight.
• 21:23
  And I'm very clear about this and I sometimes talk about it, whether it's in my stories
• 21:27
  or all alluded to it.
• 21:28
  I've got two audiences I speak to and my content goes towards one lane or the other.
• 21:32
  One is the real estate community, agents, brokers, people within this space, investors to
• 21:37
  talk about either how I'm doing, how I basically affords the brand online and how they can
• 21:42
  also do it as well, talking about current market trends, updates, things that are actually
• 21:47
  relevant to that audience.
• 21:48
  And then more importantly, the other audience that I speak to is the consumer audience.
• 21:53
  The people that I want to actually connect with and help and assist.
• 21:56
  And that's really where I'm most passionate about.
• 21:59
  So it's preaching financial literacy.
• 22:01
  It's helping people make better money decisions as a debt manager around mortgages.
• 22:07
  And not just exchanging paperwork for rates, but really bringing about a more holistic approach
• 22:12
  to it.
• 22:13
  And so those are my two audiences that I'm speaking to online.
• 22:16
  And on the same profile, right?
• 22:18
  Yes, on the same profile.
• 22:20
  So have you ever heard this or thought this is like, because I'm wondering some people probably
• 22:25
  would think that to combine content for the two, you would think that the content would
• 22:30
  be vastly different for the two audiences.
• 22:33
  And how do not?
• 22:34
  Because there's always going to be a, oh, sorry, go ahead.
• 22:36
  How do you keep both interested, you know, and I mean, if you're, if you're riding the
• 22:39
  realtor lane and the consumer lane, because your content for realtors, you know, obviously
• 22:44
  in some cases may not be of interest to a consumer.
• 22:47
  Sure.
• 22:48
  I try and create some relevance, even if it's a small amount back to it in terms of why
• 22:54
  I feel it's important to speak to consumers in a certain way.
• 22:58
  And that'll maybe be a message or a piece of content, you know, aim that a real estate
• 23:03
  agent.
• 23:04
  But a consumer could see that and also see, well, that might actually be very helpful
• 23:08
  for me in helping choose a realtor or the types of real estate professionals that I align
• 23:12
  with.
• 23:13
  You know, are they speaking this type of a language?
• 23:15
  So there's always a tie, but, you know, oftentimes the content is clear cut for one audience
• 23:20
  or the other, but it still always, it still all falls under financial literacy, marketing,
• 23:26
  real estate related type of information, you know, under that umbrella at the end of
• 23:32
  the day.
• 23:33
  More importantly, it helps me keep things dynamic.
• 23:35
  So I'm not saying the same things and preaching the same type of message.
• 23:38
  It gives me the opportunity to kind of keep my audience on its toes and also me to stay
• 23:42
  on my toes and in coming up with stuff that's relevant and helpful and useful to both
• 23:46
  of those audiences.
• 23:48
  Do you notice a trend, I assume you look at some of your analytics in terms of you counts
• 23:52
  and things like that engagement, do you notice a trend in terms of is there a type of content
• 23:58
  or a topic or topics that seem to have gotten the most attention?
• 24:03
  Definitely.
• 24:04
  Anytime I include my daughter, who is almost two years old because she's adorable, and
• 24:11
  I'm just, of course I'm saying that because I'm, yes, I will vouch for that.
• 24:15
  She certainly is.
• 24:16
  So if I include her in any piece of content, the engagement is through the roof.
• 24:18
  You know, it just, and it trends better in Instagram since it seems to like it.
• 24:22
  So they push it out as does Facebook.
• 24:25
  But really, I think if it's, sometimes it's hit or miss, you just don't know, but I've
• 24:29
  found that information, obviously the visual pieces that include her, of course, tend
• 24:34
  to do well.
• 24:35
  Well, your photography is amazing, by the way.
• 24:37
  Oh, thanks.
• 24:38
  It's a preset.
• 24:39
  So, you know, just for people out there, you don't have to have the most fancy camera
• 24:42
  and the most fancy crew to do stuff.
• 24:45
  It could be any picture that's taken, but if you've got a good preset on it and you
• 24:48
  can, you know, put some touches, I call it Cologne.
• 24:50
  You just put good, good Cologne on it.
• 24:51
  It'll smell good, you know.
• 24:53
  It's a preset on your camera, your phone, what?
• 24:56
  I just use the, I use a silver preset through Lightroom, yeah, then anybody can have access
• 25:01
  to it.
• 25:02
  Yep.
• 25:03
  Well, it's funny because I'm just looking at, to your point, about this picture is with
• 25:06
  family or personal stuff.
• 25:07
  I mean, one of those almost 6,000, you know, views or, love, sorry, likes of that, videos
• 25:13
  get, get really good views as well, like you've got this one video, Arjun versus Big
• 25:18
  Banks.
• 25:19
  So I suppose that's a conversation of why an independent lender versus a Big Bank.
• 25:22
  Yep.
• 25:23
  No, so that particular piece of content, it was kind of aimed specifically at my market
• 25:30
  because this is a very big bank market.
• 25:32
  So whether it's brokers or direct lenders work a little bit more independently, who have
• 25:37
  a little bit more space to be creative, they tend to get drowned out by the large banks
• 25:42
  because agents here, you know, some of them have Big Bank Syndrome where they just like
• 25:46
  their clients being affiliated with a bank.
• 25:48
  It's part of their brand and that panache, if you will.
• 25:52
  But I try and crack that because there are a lot of strategic advantages to working
• 25:56
  with me as opposed to a large bank, especially in the wake of COVID, considering how selective
• 25:59
  they've become of a client they choose to work with.
• 26:02
  So really, it's about, you know, going back to the pre-set and whatever, it's applied
• 26:06
  to all the piece of content because I wanted a certain consistency in the aesthetic and
• 26:10
  the feel and the theme, despite the different types of content that I put out, I wanted
• 26:15
  a certain feel to it.
• 26:17
  So, you know, much like an interior designer would say, like a certain feel, the emotion
• 26:22
  that's elicited when you walk into a home that's had a professional touch, I wanted the
• 26:26
  same type of feel with my feet.
• 26:29
  So you instantly recognize it as you, yeah, definitely are achieving that.
• 26:35
  Are you posting your own content?
• 26:37
  I am, yeah.
• 26:38
  So I work with a branding specialist in an actual agency, they actually implement the execution
• 26:44
  of it.
• 26:45
  The content strategy itself is on me, the themes are on me, you know, what we're going
• 26:50
  to do, which audience we're speaking to, the copy that's written, and of course, the
• 26:54
  response to every single DM or comment that's always done by me, they actually just handle
• 26:58
  the physical posting and the editing of the pieces because they'll edit all my video
• 27:01
  content as well, but I'll have them slap on the pre-set and make sure everything fits.
• 27:05
  And I really outsource this.
• 27:06
  I'm not outsourcing my actual content strategy, you know, or the actual content creation
• 27:13
  itself.
• 27:14
  That's what takes the longest.
• 27:15
  Yeah, it is.
• 27:16
  And that's just something that's not, some people are able to do it, you know, my brother,
• 27:20
  for example, who's a master, I don't know how he does it with as busy as he is in running
• 27:26
  our branch and the boring that he puts through, he does all of his own posting and editing,
• 27:31
  which I would now, I don't have the capacity for that.
• 27:33
  So I just outsourced it, but I've got a great company that I've worked with now for two
• 27:37
  plus years and they do a good job and that's what they're good at, you know, you want to
• 27:41
  move the things that other people are good at off your plate and allow them to help.
• 27:45
  Yeah.
• 27:46
  Should I put you on the spot and ask who that company is?
• 27:48
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 27:49
  I didn't know if I was allowed to throw them a shout out here, but a brand T-Jick up in
• 27:52
  Seattle.
• 27:53
  And to talk, to speak of the power of social media, I found the CEO of that company, Young
• 27:59
  Guy, super, super go getter, and I just liked his vibe, but he had posted a video vlog
• 28:05
  of vlog itself on mortgage reports, which is a blog that I subscribe to and I saw it
• 28:10
  and I reached, and he was talking about an actual mortgage concept and I said, who's
• 28:12
  this guy talking about mortgages?
• 28:14
  So I looked him up, I found him on Instagram, I wrote him a direct message and I saw that
• 28:18
  he coached people in the space of social media and this was over two years ago.
• 28:22
  He wrote me back right away and the next thing I knew we were friends and I was working with
• 28:26
  his company and he's come down to San Francisco quite a bit.
• 28:29
  I've met him up in Seattle and we collaborate on a number of ideas and he's had me on a guest
• 28:33
  panel up there and I've had him on one down here for marketing.
• 28:37
  Yeah, it just shows you how small the world becomes when you actually tap into a lot of
• 28:40
  these platforms and use them because people are a lot more collaborative than you think.
• 28:45
  People will know how you and I got connected here, right?
• 28:48
  It's a small world that way.
• 28:51
  What's your content planning or postings or creative schedule?
• 28:57
  Because I very well know and I'm sure you can relate to this that sometimes it's hard
• 29:01
  to figure out what to post and then to do it consistently.
• 29:05
  So how do you structure that into your plan like a week or a month?
• 29:08
  Definitely.
• 29:09
  You have to be intentional about it because as you said, you can find yourself like with
• 29:14
  writer's block or creativity block or posting block like what are we going to talk about
• 29:17
  this week?
• 29:18
  So you have to set aside the time.
• 29:19
  You have to treat it like it's an actual facet of your business instead of just this
• 29:23
  thing that you'll get around to if you have time because that'll show up in the content
• 29:27
  you put out or actually not put out and you can tell that if somebody's just not consistent
• 29:32
  with it.
• 29:33
  That's the time that set aside, generally Sunday evenings or first thing on Monday morning,
• 29:37
  we're all actually collaborate with Brandtijik, we get on the phone.
• 29:41
  We kind of set a theme for the week based on what's going on and you have to, again,
• 29:44
  this is part of being intentional.
• 29:45
  We look at what's happening in the news, what's happening in the macro markets here that
• 29:50
  people want to hear about or they want to get feedback on it, they want information
• 29:53
  on not just what I think is important.
• 29:56
  I have to reverse engineer the content to meet what is a consumer most curious about
• 30:01
  or what is a real estate agent most curious about given the times that we're in.
• 30:04
  By setting that theme for the week and knowing which audience we kind of want to speak to,
• 30:07
  I've got to set schedule of our sequence of video photo and then some type of quote or
• 30:14
  inspirational meme, if you will, that ties back to real estate but is a little bit more
• 30:19
  personal to me.
• 30:21
  I never do the same thing two times in a row.
• 30:23
  You'll notice that if you look at my feed, it alternates every single time.
• 30:26
  If you scroll from top to bottom, each one of those three lanes will have the same form
• 30:32
  of content in it, whether it's a picture or a meme or a video.
• 30:36
  So I don't see it from that and I do that one because it keeps me honest with having
• 30:40
  to be creative and not do the same type of content two times in a row.
• 30:43
  But it also keeps my audience on their toes and I find that it can be a little bit more
• 30:47
  refreshing in dynamic as opposed to drowning out my content because, oh, you know, here's
• 30:52
  this guy posting the same type of picture again or the same type of content or the same
• 30:56
  type of video over and over again.
• 30:58
  So it just helps to mix things up and, again, keep things more dynamic.
• 31:01
  Yeah, yeah, very interesting.
• 31:04
  And in terms of the photography, how often do you do like, you know, batch photos where
• 31:11
  you'll book out two, three hours of the photographer?
• 31:13
  Exactly.
• 31:14
  That's it.
• 31:15
  I think you got to be conscious of your own time right and be realistic.
• 31:17
  It's not something that you can do every month.
• 31:19
  So if you block out a session, even there's so many good local photographers and video
• 31:25
  photographers in everyone's market now that are looking for work.
• 31:28
  And it's a hot space now because I know everyone's trying to get online and do similar
• 31:31
  work here regardless of what industry does.
• 31:33
  So I'll book out, I've got a photographer go to that I use here in the city and I'll
• 31:38
  book out a day, you know, once a quarter and we'll just go outside and shoot or shoot
• 31:42
  at a specific place.
• 31:43
  I'll bring a number of changes of outfits.
• 31:44
  So it looks like we did several shoots and I'll just create as much of a block of photography
• 31:51
  that we've got that I can pull and use for various, various platforms, various pieces
• 31:55
  of marketing.
• 31:56
  What have you?
• 31:57
  Same thing on the video front as well.
• 31:59
  Yeah.
• 32:00
  What's your number one source of business?
• 32:03
  I would definitely say it's from my past, my past clients because obviously, you know,
• 32:08
  you've hoped to have created or you would have hoped to have created a book of business
• 32:11
  or, you know, a database of clients that you've assisted over the last 20 years.
• 32:15
  So really it's going back to people that I've served in the past and being very intentional
• 32:20
  about coming up with solutions that can help them.
• 32:22
  So in a lot of the content, I refer to myself as a debt manager similar to a wealth manager.
• 32:27
  So I'm helping people manage and be very intentional and strategic about their debt.
• 32:30
  So a wealth manager, we all have got one whether they're managing our retirement accounts
• 32:34
  or it's money that we've got set aside, they check in with you.
• 32:37
  And I think that's kind of a lost art in our space because everyone is so transactional
• 32:41
  and moving quickly.
• 32:42
  Yeah.
• 32:43
  Do you actually characterize yourself as a debt manager when talking to people?
• 32:46
  I absolutely do.
• 32:47
  Like, and I tell them, you've got your wealth manager that manages your money and
• 32:50
  you need a debt manager that helps you manage this debt or be intentional about your other
• 32:54
  debts and using this debt to kind of help either wipe those out, consolidate whatever it might
• 32:58
  be.
• 32:59
  So there's always an opportunity when it comes to a mortgage because a mortgage is a weapon
• 33:03
  and at the start of COVID, I started putting out content that said that, use your mortgage
• 33:07
  as a weapon to go on offense here against COVID and take control of your own financial
• 33:11
  future as opposed to waiting for whatever form of, you know, assistance or help may be coming
• 33:15
  down the road.
• 33:16
  And you're still employed and you can still qualify, you can, you can do some things
• 33:20
  to set yourself up to write out the storm because the average homeowner was sitting on,
• 33:25
  and still is sitting on so much equity nationally, that, and that money's just sitting there
• 33:30
  doing nothing.
• 33:31
  So if you're needing any locks, so you have cash reserves, if you need it, yeah, whether
• 33:34
  it's pulling out money to just have a cash reserve or it's wiping out debt that you don't
• 33:39
  want to have hanging around now, you just want to simplify, you know, get your financial
• 33:42
  house in order, so to speak, was a big theme that I used months ago, but those opportunities
• 33:48
  are always there.
• 33:49
  So to type back to your original question, you're like, that's where a lot of my business
• 33:52
  comes from.
• 33:53
  It's helping pass clients with opportunities in a market that's quickly appreciating and
• 33:58
  moving very fast.
• 34:00
  So how do you cultivate that?
• 34:02
  What's a couple of ways you stay in front of them?
• 34:04
  Like email, calls, anniversaries, home, yeah, all those touch points and everyone, you
• 34:09
  know, anyone that's in the lending spaces inundated with all forms of platforms and technologies
• 34:14
  that can help, but, you know, using agent legend, that's a, that's a platform I use for
• 34:18
  texting and emailing and dropping a note to clients at various key points or, you know,
• 34:23
  certain timeline or certain benchmarks within the timeline.
• 34:29
  And then of course, just general outreach, you know, I'll set calendar alerts for myself
• 34:32
  despite how much volume we may or may not be doing that, you know, I need to make these
• 34:35
  calls, I need to still make these emails and still keep up that personal touch or a
• 34:39
  direct message via Instagram to certain people at key moments and, and just keep it very
• 34:44
  personal still so that it's not as automated as possible.
• 34:47
  Are you doing any paid traffic ads, is that kind of stuff?
• 34:50
  No, other than the occasional boost to my, my current content, you know, just to get
• 34:55
  it out in front of more people for it's a relevant amount, I did start employing.
• 35:00
  So we're, we're starting here in 2021, so more Facebook ads themselves to reach current
• 35:05
  home owners as well as prospective home buyers in the market would be just because there's
• 35:10
  so many people on there and I've heard about great success with it.
• 35:13
  So I'm trying that out now, but it's been primarily just touching my own networks, my
• 35:17
  own circles and spheres of influence and then of course, past clients.
• 35:20
  Dude, I just looked at this number, I didn't realize this, you had a 132,000 followers
• 35:25
  on Instagram?
• 35:26
  Yeah, I didn't realize that's where it's at now, but yes.
• 35:30
  That might be the biggest number I've known for somebody in the mortgage space.
• 35:33
  Well, you know, it's not, I mean, don't throw me too many kudos there, you know, a lot
• 35:36
  of it is through a lot of collaborations, I know that's still that's huge.
• 35:41
  And you know, shout out campaigns and whatnot, but there's ways to grow audiences.
• 35:45
  But you know, the size of the audiences is the most important thing.
• 35:48
  I tell anyone who's, you know, looking to start like, do I need tens of thousands?
• 35:51
  No, you could have 500, you know, an audience of 500, but if there are 500 people that you're
• 35:55
  reaching and you're genuinely connecting with and you're providing them with immense value
• 35:59
  in the way of the information you pass, but that's time will serve.
• 36:02
  So size of the audience, not so much important, but really just what you're actually putting
• 36:08
  out engagement.
• 36:09
  And you get that.
• 36:10
  How many hours would you say, give me a break down on how you structure your time engaged
• 36:15
  on social media?
• 36:16
  Because I know you know the game.
• 36:17
  It's all about, you know, commenting, engaging, liking, not posting, ghosting.
• 36:21
  So what is your day or your week look like to manage your presence there?
• 36:25
  So I've got, you know, my mornings are generally intentional about what we're doing that day.
• 36:30
  Obviously, there's my beginning of the week meeting that kind of sets the theme for the
• 36:33
  week in which audience, as we want to speak to, what type of relevant information or market
• 36:38
  data that, you know, needs to be highlighted or touched on.
• 36:41
  Every evening, from then on out, I'll definitely try and spend at least an hour whether it's
• 36:46
  one platform, Facebook, LinkedIn or Instagram and try and mix it up.
• 36:50
  Just seeking out stuff that I genuinely want to comment on or, you know, throw some gratitude
• 36:56
  behind whatever it might be, not just liking, but actually writing something because it's
• 37:01
  genuine.
• 37:02
  It's sincere.
• 37:03
  It's not so generic, but I will put in about an hour every evening doing that and that's
• 37:08
  something you can kind of, I hate using the word multitasking because I feel it's so overused
• 37:12
  and it actually now, if anything, COVID has taught us, it's not really real.
• 37:17
  You can't multitask, but nothing really gets done with it.
• 37:19
  But I will multitask while doing something, whether I'm, my mind's turned off watching
• 37:23
  a little TV or catching a game, you know, over these last several months now that sports
• 37:27
  is back and I'm a big sports fan in general.
• 37:29
  So I'll do that, you know, and spend my time there.
• 37:32
  But every day, after that beginning of the week meeting, I will spend some time, probably
• 37:37
  30 minutes to an hour, which is what I can afford now in the constraints of my business.
• 37:42
  Being intentional about seeking out more information, you know, and learning from others.
• 37:46
  I'll try and absorb more content from other people in my space, other peers, colleagues,
• 37:50
  people I respect, see what are they, who are they speaking to, what sort of message are
• 37:55
  they coming across with, is it tone deaf or not, and try and learn from others, and then
• 37:58
  use that, you know, within my own strategy because it's not just about what we're doing,
• 38:02
  but you can, you can learn so much from what others are doing and doing well with.
• 38:06
  Oh, sure.
• 38:07
  Yeah, that's why you make sense to follow people who are doing good stuff.
• 38:09
  Yeah.
• 38:10
  All right.
• 38:11
  So you said your normal and source of business is past clients.
• 38:13
  What's, what's the next order there?
• 38:15
  I mean, it's, it's definitely my social presence now.
• 38:19
  The real estate agent community and the relationships I've been able to kind of crack into and turn
• 38:25
  into something that's actually, you know, a relationship where we're actually going to conduct
• 38:29
  business or transact together has really, really exploded in the last year.
• 38:33
  So whether it's from the events that I put on and then having the presence and then also,
• 38:38
  you know, commenting, engaging and helping prop up their content and really being collaborative
• 38:42
  and, you know, being everyone's being a fan of everyone and back and forth.
• 38:47
  That way, agent relationships have really broken down and, you know, that's helped me create
• 38:52
  more, more business in that space than I did, you know, being able to physically network
• 38:57
  to be honest with you over previous years.
• 38:59
  So I want to unpack that a little bit for people who can't necessarily connect the dots.
• 39:04
  How do you get agent relationships and business in your case?
• 39:09
  Let's just use Instagram.
• 39:10
  How has that evolved for you?
• 39:12
  So you don't want to necessarily feel like you have to reinvent the wheel too much.
• 39:15
  Just remember that these platforms are going to help you scale it, whatever that might be.
• 39:18
  So in the past, you'd think of, I got to make realtor calls.
• 39:21
  I got to show up at their office and drop off flyers.
• 39:24
  There's 50 agents in that office, so I'm going to make 50 flat.
• 39:26
  Whatever it is you were thinking about, just translate it over here on this side.
• 39:30
  And you've got, you've got your thumbs and you've got an inbox for these people.
• 39:34
  You can access them just as fast and just as easy and for free.
• 39:37
  But how?
• 39:38
  I mean, are you just like liking people and then commenting, following?
• 39:42
  I was just going to get into that.
• 39:43
  So I think it goes more than it's all good, man.
• 39:46
  It's more than just liking because likes are now not enough, especially if you're trying
• 39:51
  to track an agent or forge a relationship with someone who's getting a lot of likes.
• 39:55
  They're not going to know if I liked them or the other 500 or 1000 people, which one it
• 40:00
  was.
• 40:01
  But they may see the comments and they'll, they may not see a DM if it's somebody who
• 40:05
  gets a lot of that kind of traffic, but they'll see the comments or other people will see
• 40:09
  the comments.
• 40:10
  Some things consistently, your name, your message will start to resonate and trend and people
• 40:14
  will kind of circle back like, who is this guy?
• 40:16
  I see him commenting on every agent that I know.
• 40:18
  So if you're a lender, putting in time to where, you know, just market as metrics set
• 40:23
  a goal, you know, 50 agents, I'm going to reach out to and send a genuine direct message
• 40:27
  through.
• 40:28
  Not a generic one.
• 40:29
  I'm going to write Jeff, loved, loved your post today on this market update you put
• 40:33
  up.
• 40:34
  Super cool.
• 40:35
  You gave me some inspiration.
• 40:36
  I'm going to do the same thing.
• 40:38
  And not just, hey, you know, that was awesome or, you know, just an emoji, which we can
• 40:42
  be, you'll see it because we're trying to go through it so fast, put in the time and
• 40:46
  be genuine and if you'll do that, I think you'll find you'll get a lot more warm response
• 40:50
  from people and that's ultimately going to open doors for you.
• 40:56
  Are you selective like, you know, in terms of the agents you try and engage with there?
• 41:02
  I can be, but really it's more, I'm more market driven.
• 41:05
  So I'll just pick a certain market and then I'm targeting agents in that market because
• 41:08
  the Bay Area where I'm at is so big, obviously, so there's San Francisco agents, there's South
• 41:11
  San Francisco agents, there's Peninsula agents, East Bay agents, you know, North Bay agents,
• 41:16
  wine country agents, whatever it is.
• 41:18
  So I'll, I'll just kind of hone in on a specific market and that's where I'll focus and drive
• 41:22
  deep into.
• 41:23
  So for engagement with real estate agents, you know, to the point about it's the second
• 41:27
  largest source of business for you agents via social is Instagram kind of like your
• 41:33
  main focus.
• 41:34
  Instagram and Facebook, I'd say, I think, I think LinkedIn definitely helps me solidify
• 41:39
  my reputation because people may circle back there, but I think I find that LinkedIn
• 41:44
  is definitely, at least for me personally, been a great place to collaborate and meet
• 41:48
  up with more industry professionals and other people from ancillary industries outside
• 41:53
  of real estate, like how you and I connected, you know, I'm seeing that, but Instagram and
• 41:56
  Facebook can definitely be that place where we can, you know, kind of get right down to
• 42:00
  it as if it was a coffee shop visit, you know, or that we met up there.
• 42:03
  I've always felt with with with LinkedIn, you just made the point there about collaborating
• 42:08
  with colleagues.
• 42:09
  I've always felt with LinkedIn, the challenge with it is that it's not locally focused like
• 42:16
  Instagram, like Facebook, you know, we can really use the hashtag and use a bunch of different
• 42:21
  tools to be able to build a local following a local audience, you know, definitely.
• 42:25
  That's what I see as the limit because you know, we all only have so much bandwidth
• 42:29
  and it's like, what's, I've said this for a long time, I still wonder if it's 100% true,
• 42:34
  but you know, that you can't be great across five different platforms.
• 42:37
  I mean, case in point, look at Clubhouse now, right?
• 42:40
  Right.
• 42:41
  So Clubhouse is now blowing up and then, you know, and I'm getting all these paintings
• 42:45
  from people to come on there and I'm just like, my God, I just don't have the time
• 42:48
  like to just randomly hop on Clubhouse, you know, it's another thing now, right?
• 42:53
  It'd be another big thing on your plate and we've already got enough to make a choice.
• 42:57
  You've got to make a choice, you know what I mean?
• 42:59
  Where you're going to focus your time, otherwise you're spread too thin and nothing happens.
• 43:03
  Having a presence is important, you know, like we just talked about to your point on LinkedIn,
• 43:06
  you need to have it, you know, it's like having a website, you've got to have one, otherwise
• 43:09
  you're just, you're so outdated.
• 43:10
  I mean, who are you?
• 43:11
  If you don't have at least a LinkedIn profile, but you know, where you spend your time
• 43:15
  marketing and where you spend your time engaging and seeking and putting out stuff, that is
• 43:20
  where you have to be a little bit more selective, unless this is your full time role at whatever
• 43:23
  company you're at or it's your job.
• 43:25
  But for most of us, we're all wearing different hats throughout the day, you know, as originators
• 43:29
  we've got, we've got client, you know, client interfacing to do it, then we've got our problem
• 43:34
  solving and we've got our actual pipeline management and we've got our marketing efforts.
• 43:37
  I mean, it's, there's so many different aspects of the business that you're getting pulled
• 43:40
  into and you have no control over so it's hard to be great on every platform, as you said.
• 43:46
  Are you doing much with anything live, be it IGTV or?
• 43:49
  No, I'm not, you know, and that's a change I want to make this year in doing a little
• 43:53
  bit more live because there were some people who had a lot of great success with it.
• 43:57
  My time was just primarily spent with, you know, some content that was going to be, you
• 44:03
  know, going to be used for that day, being either the theme or the market, you know, the
• 44:09
  market moment or what have you and that's where it would come into.
• 44:13
  But no, not as much live, but I think that's again, that'll be a change that I make this
• 44:17
  year.
• 44:18
  Once again, we're going to put links in the show notes to all your social feeds, Instagram
• 44:22
  courses, you know, you're a strong point for you.
• 44:25
  And the IGTV videos over there are like really awesome and really dumb, for sure, lots
• 44:31
  of lessons to learn their people.
• 44:32
  So you need to go follow our June over there and we're going to put the link in the show
• 44:37
  notes.
• 44:38
  Okay.
• 44:39
  And give them some love, give them some comments.
• 44:40
  Right.
• 44:41
  I'll send it back.
• 44:42
  And Jeff, man, thanks for all the stuff you put out, man, this podcast and the collaboration
• 44:46
  you know, amongst the real estate and the marketing and lending community, you know, you've
• 44:50
  helped make the world smaller, but you know, the stuff that you put out and these collaborations
• 44:53
  with people has been so useful to all of us, you know, that listen to it and watch and
• 44:58
  we get a lot out of it.
• 44:59
  So, so thank you for all you put out, man.
• 45:01
  I appreciate it, man.
• 45:02
  It's a passion project, you know, sure, so don't start a podcast because you think you're
• 45:05
  going to make money.
• 45:06
  You know, I mean, even Joe Rogan didn't start like that.
• 45:10
  No, he didn't and look where it went for him.
• 45:12
  So that's a big guy.
• 45:14
  Who knows nowadays?
• 45:15
  All right.
• 45:16
  With the remaining minutes we have left, I do want to, I'm on your website.
• 45:19
  Yeah.
• 45:20
  A couple of things stood out for me about your website.
• 45:22
  First of all, it does not look like a mortgage website, right?
• 45:25
  So kudos to you, which is awesome.
• 45:27
  That's intentional, I think.
• 45:28
  The branding on it is awesome, like the skyline view of the Golden Gate and the city behind
• 45:34
  it.
• 45:35
  But you said something earlier when I asked you about the real estate agents and sources
• 45:37
  of business.
• 45:38
  You mentioned events you put on and maybe this is a two-part question, maybe I don't
• 45:42
  know, but you have agent university on your website.
• 45:45
  You may or may not know.
• 45:46
  I'm a big believer in events, online, offline, educational platform for real estate
• 45:49
  agents.
• 45:50
  But it seems like you do a lot of teaching real estate agents, is that right?
• 45:54
  I try to.
• 45:55
  And it's, you know, whether it was, you know, through a live event or now, you know,
• 45:59
  virtual, we've got one that's going to be coming up here in Q1 this year that I'm super
• 46:02
  excited about with an all-female panel called the social boss lady.
• 46:06
  It'll be featuring six high-powered Instagram profiles that.
• 46:14
  And the actual people behind those profiles, of course, that'll be doing, yes, it'll
• 46:19
  be live.
• 46:20
  It'll get you some information on it so we can get it up.
• 46:22
  But yeah, so that, you know, that to show how people are walking the walk, but to inspire
• 46:25
  that community.
• 46:26
  But I did a great, that was well-supported and it was a charity event as well.
• 46:31
  Last year live event in San Francisco and it was called the social realtor.
• 46:36
  And it featured a panelist or panelists from around the country.
• 46:41
  I didn't want people from, from my market, I wanted people with outside perspectives,
• 46:45
  but the people within this market could draw from and take from.
• 46:48
  So I brought in two realtors from outside markets.
• 46:51
  And one lead gen specialist is probably one of the best in the country at what he does.
• 46:56
  And also Brandtigic, the company that I use with a lot of my content strategy and execution.
• 47:01
  And it turned out to be a great event, but, you know, it was predominant.
• 47:05
  It was all agents that came, we had about 50 plus agents that came, and then also put
• 47:09
  up a recording of the event on YouTube.
• 47:11
  But agents got a lot out of it because it was small shorts, you know, to the point questions
• 47:16
  for each of these panelists to answer and then an open form Q&A.
• 47:19
  But putting out value and events like that is not difficult to do.
• 47:23
  And as a lender, you can give back to the real estate community itself so easily without asking
• 47:27
  for anything in return.
• 47:28
  And in fact, I made a joke at the beginning of the event that I know all the agents that
• 47:32
  have attended this event are all going to be saying, oh shit, this guy's going to hit
• 47:35
  me up for business now.
• 47:36
  And it started calling me and harassing me and I told him you will not hear from me once
• 47:39
  and I held true to that.
• 47:40
  I didn't call up one of those people saying, hey, when are we going to do a deal together?
• 47:43
  It wasn't about that at all.
• 47:45
  That relationship will come, you know, and for a lot of agents they've got existing relationships
• 47:49
  right now for all these agents.
• 47:51
  So I think if you're a lender that's trying to crack that, just be more than what you
• 47:55
  already know they're getting from their lender.
• 47:58
  If they've got a lender that kind of does their deals great, deals can be done by anyone
• 48:02
  at the end of the day, you know, you just know that yourself, you've got belief that
• 48:06
  you can do them better.
• 48:07
  But how are you going to get yourself in that position?
• 48:10
  And the way you do that is by giving agents what they're not getting, which is an ability
• 48:13
  to, you know, create a brand or the ability to learn more about how to be online, their
• 48:18
  other lender is not likely doing that for them and their broker may not be doing that for
• 48:21
  them at all.
• 48:22
  Their broker is likely just giving them stock generated, corporate content that they put
• 48:26
  out about why this broker is great and why our concierge services are great.
• 48:29
  It tells you nothing about that agent.
• 48:31
  So if you help these agents by either putting on events or creating some stuff to where
• 48:35
  they can get more out of it, you will become infinitely more valuable to that agent than
• 48:39
  their existing lender.
• 48:40
  And before you know it, you'll have a working relationship with their and it'll break
• 48:44
  down some wall.
• 48:45
  So it's a real advantage that I think people don't take advantage of.
• 48:48
  And you think we could do a virtual version of that these days?
• 48:51
  Totally.
• 48:52
  Yeah, I mean, I'm going to do my first virtual event this year.
• 48:54
  So ask me in a month and I hope it goes well.
• 48:59
  I'm sure it will, but just because the panel is going to be fantastic and they've all
• 49:02
  got a great following.
• 49:03
  But yeah, I think you can now take events virtual and people have been doing it successfully.
• 49:08
  It's obviously difficult to get people to show up in person, but it also makes drawing
• 49:12
  that event that much easier.
• 49:13
  So you run out of excuses if you're a lender to put on an event like I've got a rent
• 49:16
  of venue and I've got to go get all the wine and the hors d'oeuvres and how are we going
• 49:19
  to do this and get a PA system and I need to buy a new suit, whatever it is.
• 49:24
  You don't have to do any of that stuff now.
• 49:26
  You can skip so many steps and kind of get right to it.
• 49:28
  I think people will come up with an ever roadblock or resistance or limiting self beliefs
• 49:35
  that they want to get in the way because I've talked to lots of loan officers about that
• 49:40
  about teaching classes via Zoom, which is one of the things I help all those do to get
• 49:44
  agents.
• 49:45
  But then you hear that, well, you know, I don't like Zoom or I'm, you know, I mean,
• 49:49
  all the frigging excuses that get stacked up is just like, you don't like money, right?
• 49:53
  Just to face it.
• 49:55
  So true, yeah.
• 49:57
  So true.
• 49:58
  Yeah.
• 49:59
  But you have on your website, aging university, that's, that's cool.
• 50:02
  So you know, educational videos there.
• 50:04
  Yeah.
• 50:05
  You also have mortgage 201, which I think is fantastic the way you've changed the labeling
• 50:10
  of that instead of 101 because you're already so smart.
• 50:14
  Not, it's not for me, it's because my audience is smarter, you know.
• 50:17
  I figured there's a lot of basics that people get online and that was the inspiration
• 50:21
  for calling that 201.
• 50:23
  Consumers get, you know, a baseline of information, whether that's good or bad, they're coming
• 50:27
  to us having been either talk to by their friends who have gone through the process or
• 50:31
  doing some independent research online and going on Zilla, whatever it might be.
• 50:35
  So they've got a baseline.
• 50:37
  It may not be the right baseline and there may be some things we have to deconstruct there,
• 50:40
  but I call it 201 because I'm going to take, you know, maybe what you've got there is
• 50:43
  a frame of reference and let's sharpen it, let's clarify it, let's, you know, correct
• 50:48
  it, if you will.
• 50:50
  And I hope you just get some of this information out.
• 50:52
  And again, it's all for free.
• 50:53
  It's just value stuff that we want to put out in the way of home buyer education and
• 50:57
  more importantly, financial literacy.
• 51:00
  Yeah.
• 51:01
  All right.
• 51:02
  I'm going to lastly, I guess throw this concept at you because you're pretty savvy and
• 51:05
  when it comes to digital and social media, you know, this whole concept of consumer direct.
• 51:13
  And I'm just asking you because I'm really curious on what your thought pattern is around
• 51:16
  this.
• 51:17
  I see or hear, you know, this, this, this message of you got to go consumer direct.
• 51:22
  You got to go consumer direct.
• 51:23
  And that's one of the reasons why I always ask.
• 51:25
  I mean, almost anybody having the show like you and others, what's your number one source
• 51:28
  of business?
• 51:29
  And I don't know that I've ever heard consumer direct is your number one source of business
• 51:34
  for anybody who's been around for some period of time.
• 51:38
  But I guess the question I'm getting to is, you know, this whole discussion or debate
• 51:42
  about the relevance of real estate agents.
• 51:46
  And there's some, some underpinnings of noise rumbling about forget the agents just go consumer
• 51:53
  direct.
• 51:54
  What do you, what do you say to that?
• 51:55
  What's your response?
• 51:58
  To the agent or to the consumer that say that message that, you know, going consumer direct
• 52:04
  is the way as a loan officer to succeed in 2021, yeah, consumer direct.
• 52:12
  You know, I think it's that might be a little bit more of a challenging question than it,
• 52:17
  than it sounds initially.
• 52:18
  I think you can have a healthy blend of the two, but these platforms have made it so much
• 52:23
  easier to go consumer direct as a loan officer before the only way you could go consumer direct.
• 52:28
  If you're starting fresh, you know, squit, you know, from ground zero, you don't have
• 52:32
  a past book of business.
• 52:33
  You don't have a database to market to.
• 52:35
  You've just kind of got your own circle of friends and whatnot.
• 52:39
  So consumer direct might be a more challenging proposition to you at that point because
• 52:43
  then you're thinking, I got to hit up all my friends and family members and sell to them.
• 52:46
  Like if you need my services, I'm the guy you should call.
• 52:49
  So am I going to get it out of guilt or am I going to get it out of because they really
• 52:51
  want to work with me.
• 52:52
  They just want to throw me a boner and help me out or because they feel some obligation
• 52:56
  and then we're going to fight about it.
• 52:57
  You know what, Thanksgiving next, I mean, it could be tough.
• 53:00
  It could be really tough.
• 53:01
  So there may be, you know, somebody starting out might have to leverage relationships first
• 53:05
  to kind of build that up and then take their message consumer direct or you could use
• 53:10
  these platforms and actually reach out to people that you don't know at all by just creating
• 53:14
  content and creating messages and creating authority and coming in not so tone deaf but
• 53:19
  as somebody who is genuine and has an understanding of what it is that they're talking about.
• 53:24
  Consumers can then find you that'll that'll tee up the opportunity that'll open the door,
• 53:27
  you know, that's your, you know, it creates an opportunity there to to walk through and
• 53:31
  then forge an actual relationship and then ultimately put a potential transaction.
• 53:36
  So you can go consumer direct now in this current era, whether you're starting from Ground
• 53:41
  Zero or you, you know, have been doing this business or you've been in the industry for
• 53:44
  a long time by using the platforms and using them effectively.
• 53:48
  But it takes time and it's going to take a lot of deliberate intentional work where you're
• 53:53
  being genuine and reaching out to people on a one-to-one basis but then you can create
• 53:57
  a little bit of momentum that way and go consumer direct.
• 53:59
  So I don't think it always has to be based on relationships with referral partners.
• 54:03
  I mean, that's a very healthy mix and of course you want that.
• 54:06
  But as a lender, you're not, you know, for them to say, well, you better have a lot of
• 54:10
  real-to-relationships otherwise you're not going to make it.
• 54:12
  No, I don't think that's the case.
• 54:14
  I think, you know, surely you want some of that and that would be healthy to have and
• 54:19
  you might have some existing ones that you want to continue to further and just strengthen
• 54:23
  those bonds.
• 54:24
  But you can go consumer direct using these platforms.
• 54:27
  It's not like how it was in the old way when we didn't have these platforms or we weren't
• 54:31
  utilizing them to their full strength and ability.
• 54:33
  But I think that's where the opportunity lies and people can hit it 24 hours a day.
• 54:40
  Yeah.
• 54:41
  No, I agree with you.
• 54:42
  You know, the way I sum that up is I'm using this phrase now, a hybrid loan officer,
• 54:48
  which is to your point is it does make sense and it is helpful to have a blend of sources.
• 54:55
  I remember, I don't know if you remember, Dan Kennedy, one of the old school marketing
• 54:58
  mentors always used to say that the worst number in marketing is one, right?
• 55:02
  This is one.
• 55:03
  If you only have one source of business and that goes away, it becomes disrupted or whatever,
• 55:08
  all of a sudden you're dead in the water.
• 55:10
  A hybrid loan officer, I'm starting to like pretenderize this concept for you listeners
• 55:15
  out there.
• 55:16
  The hybrid loan officer is one who does have a hand in referral partners but also has
• 55:20
  a hand in the consumer direct because it's just like you've proven in our conversation
• 55:25
  here today, you can source business from there.
• 55:28
  The last point on that is which you actually articulated a moment ago was the reason why
• 55:33
  I still believe in referral partners is it's the lowest cost, typically lowest amount
• 55:40
  of effort if you're working with the right people and highest ROI if you will and quickest
• 55:45
  way to get to the business then if you're trying to go consumer direct.
• 55:49
  So that's why I believe you need to have both.
• 55:52
  You need to have both, yeah, definitely.
• 55:54
  And again, to the earlier answer, these platforms give you the ability to really scale both
• 55:59
  of those lines.
• 56:00
  Like you've done on Instagram, man.
• 56:02
  Yeah, you can reach so many referral partners and potential colleagues that could become
• 56:07
  a referral source for you so much faster than the old fashioned way.
• 56:11
  I mean, I don't know how long it would take to, you know, attend as many networking events
• 56:16
  and lunches to form a group of 100 agents that have me top of mind that know who I am.
• 56:21
  I know who they are.
• 56:22
  We know intimate details about each other in terms of our personal lives and how our
• 56:26
  business is operate.
• 56:27
  That could take a year if not two years to create and develop.
• 56:30
  Not to mention, I'd spend a lot of money on overpriced coffee doing that, but, you know,
• 56:35
  these platforms, I hope you can help you really leverage that and that's where the secret
• 56:40
  sauce is.
• 56:41
  I should have asked you this earlier, but so you don't try to move like after you've engaged
• 56:45
  with a realtor for some time on Instagram, for example, I know some people proactively
• 56:51
  be, you know, kind of, hey, we should get together and chat or grab a Zoom or whatever.
• 56:55
  Do you do that or do you let them do that?
• 56:58
  I kind of depends.
• 57:00
  It's going to be situational, right?
• 57:01
  If the opportunity kind of comes up or we find out that we've got a lot more in common,
• 57:06
  maybe some mutual friends or we worked on opposite sides of a deal and there's an opportunity
• 57:09
  there and you take that opening.
• 57:10
  What we live in the same area or we work in the same area, then it can be easy to do that.
• 57:15
  Maybe an in-person coffee or that, but I don't feel this need where pre-COVID, really pre-COVID
• 57:21
  was kind of like, COVID was the additional pivot point, the platforms and being on social
• 57:26
  was one, but COVID kind of made it so that you don't have to do that because more than
• 57:30
  likely, people have a little bit of an adherence to wanting to meet in person anyways or they're
• 57:35
  a little bit more reserved about it just for health reasons, so that's your out.
• 57:38
  You don't have to do it anymore, you know, like, okay, we can either hop on a quick Zoom
• 57:41
  or we can just keep furthering our friendship and relationship in its stage of infancy just
• 57:46
  through these platforms and having, you know, exchanges and whatnot.
• 57:49
  So again, it's another opportunity to scale, but I don't feel the need to have to do that
• 57:54
  every single time.
• 57:55
  I'm a little bit more selective about it.
• 57:56
  And again, you know, to your, to tie it back, also to your point about or your question
• 58:00
  about these platforms and being good on all of them, I don't feel the need to have to be
• 58:04
  everything to everyone, you know, seeing a real estate agent out there because it's just,
• 58:09
  you know, it's not, it's not worth the effort and it's also a big drain.
• 58:13
  Yeah, for sure.
• 58:14
  All right, well, I can't let you go without talking about Taekwondo, man.
• 58:18
  All right, man.
• 58:20
  All right, for this lighting here, man, this room was a good one.
• 58:23
  Sun's going down in San Francisco and you're, don't worry about it, man, it's all good.
• 58:30
  So I don't want to get it wrong.
• 58:32
  So you, you tell me you are the, tell us, tell us your role with Taekwondo team USA.
• 58:38
  So I used to compete on the national team, I've done Taekwondo for 30 plus years, but
• 58:44
  I used to compete on the national team and then I retired in 2014.
• 58:49
  I also was coaching that year as well.
• 58:51
  So I was doing both.
• 58:52
  I was competing and coaching, which was a heavy load.
• 58:53
  But then now I'm just full time in the coaching.
• 58:55
  I still keep up with training and working out because it's, it's a great workout, but
• 59:00
  I now coach the coach, get to co-head coach the national team, partner friend.
• 59:06
  And you won some medals if I recall, right?
• 59:09
  I did.
• 59:10
  I was fortunate enough to break through twice in 07N in 2014, which was a huge honor and
• 59:16
  a real, you know, a real high point in it.
• 59:18
  Yeah.
• 59:19
  So what's the greatest part of being involved in that?
• 59:21
  Either personally or obviously coaching, that has another aspect, but what, what, what
• 59:25
  like gets you right in here about that whole thing, you know?
• 59:28
  I think on a personal level, it's the challenge, you know, or the race with yourself to try
• 59:33
  and get better.
• 59:34
  And then, you know, the first time I did it was like, it was like this dream and this,
• 59:38
  you know, you forward feeling that it happened in 07.
• 59:43
  And then I took a few years off of competing, I still kept up with training and whatnot.
• 59:46
  And then I went again in 2012 and I didn't, I didn't have the same success.
• 59:51
  And even though I'd prepared just as hard, if not harder, I worked hard, I didn't take
• 59:54
  anything for granted, but sometimes things don't go your way, but it was, it ended up being
• 59:57
  an invaluable lesson.
• 59:59
  And I relate that to kind of the market crash for those that were in real estate or in
• 1:00:02
  lending.
• 1:00:03
  You got knocked off and then you start questioning and asking yourself, was I really any
• 1:00:06
  good?
• 1:00:07
  I'd get lucky the first time or, you know, what was it?
• 1:00:10
  You know, you have those doubts and then kind of like a rocky three moment when you got
• 1:00:14
  beat up so bad and then you had to reconfigure his team and get with the right group and retrain
• 1:00:19
  and do it, recalibrate, but in a different way and then set himself up for success.
• 1:00:23
  So the second goal metal actually meant more because of what it took to get back there
• 1:00:29
  and the work that it took and also kind of overcoming some of those emotional barriers
• 1:00:34
  and doubts and roadblocks there.
• 1:00:37
  Your two time world champion.
• 1:00:38
  I am, yeah.
• 1:00:39
  Congratulations, man.
• 1:00:40
  That's awesome.
• 1:00:41
  Congratulations.
• 1:00:42
  A degree of commitment.
• 1:00:44
  It was.
• 1:00:45
  It is, yeah.
• 1:00:46
  But now I get to do it, you know, with the athletes I coach and helping them and passing
• 1:00:49
  off some of that knowledge and and and watching them, you know, transform and go through that
• 1:00:53
  evolution of being an athlete that maybe has a dream or maybe doesn't know how this is
• 1:00:57
  all going to come together and then seeing a finished product.
• 1:01:00
  And it's not always about the wins and the losses, it's about that that process and
• 1:01:03
  that improvement.
• 1:01:04
  Yeah.
• 1:01:05
  And where they end up and that for me is the great joy that I get and I'm enjoying coaching
• 1:01:09
  a lot more than I did competing.
• 1:01:10
  It was a separate feeling but helping, helping guys out more and being a part of this is
• 1:01:16
  something really special and something I, you know, have a great honor and doing it.
• 1:01:19
  I don't take it for granted.
• 1:01:20
  But it parlays into my mortgage space as well too because I'm a big advocate for my
• 1:01:24
  clients.
• 1:01:25
  I fight for them.
• 1:01:26
  I like representing first time home buyers because I feel they're underdogs in any market
• 1:01:29
  because of cash buyers or all the things that can be so daunting about this process.
• 1:01:34
  So I wear the same hat.
• 1:01:36
  I just use different language because we're not hitting anything.
• 1:01:38
  It's not violent, but yeah, that's for me, that that really helped in my social strategy
• 1:01:46
  and kind of making that personal brand between this part of my life and this part of my
• 1:01:49
  life and forging the two.
• 1:01:50
  Nothing worth talking about.
• 1:01:52
  Well, I have a personal connection to it at my son at 13, got his black belt.
• 1:01:57
  Amazing.
• 1:01:58
  Good for him.
• 1:01:59
  Exactly.
• 1:02:00
  I wish he would have continued on, unfortunately, he didn't.
• 1:02:02
  That's okay.
• 1:02:03
  I mean, there's lessons he'll draw from because that was a major commitment and for a lot
• 1:02:06
  of youth, that's the, I mean, that thing ends up being kind of the largest time block of
• 1:02:11
  commitment that they had to put something into and really adhere to in terms of the schedule
• 1:02:15
  and then come out the other side.
• 1:02:16
  So there'll be lessons he'll draw from that for the rest of his life whether he realizes
• 1:02:20
  or you realize it.
• 1:02:21
  So the thing that I loved about that is his master, master Lee, I don't know if he was
• 1:02:27
  fifth or seventh or whatever, but you're up there as well, aren't you like a fifth or
• 1:02:31
  more degree?
• 1:02:32
  Six.
• 1:02:33
  Six.
• 1:02:34
  Yeah.
• 1:02:35
  I attended when he had to go and do the things you do to get that next, you know, ranking
• 1:02:41
  of the fifth or six or whatever.
• 1:02:43
  And literally, like these guys came in from, you know, Korea and all this kind of stuff,
• 1:02:48
  right?
• 1:02:50
  Yeah.
• 1:02:51
  And the panel to judge and I mean, like didn't speak English, you know, none of that kind
• 1:02:54
  of stuff.
• 1:02:55
  And like he had to do to perform and you know this very well, but it just, it's just mind
• 1:02:59
  blowing to see it.
• 1:03:00
  And this guy, when he got that, he is definitely in his late 50s.
• 1:03:05
  And it's just amazing, right?
• 1:03:07
  The physical feats that you have to do to, to, to, right, to be able to perform.
• 1:03:11
  Yeah.
• 1:03:12
  It's a lifelong commitment.
• 1:03:13
  It's, it's, yeah.
• 1:03:15
  Of course, like you said, the values that he learned and this guy was such, such a beautiful
• 1:03:19
  human being.
• 1:03:20
  Like he could very heart, very hard speaking English, right?
• 1:03:23
  And so what did he call him?
• 1:03:25
  He called him handsome, handsome Jack.
• 1:03:26
  That's what he'd always say.
• 1:03:27
  You know, his name is Zachary.
• 1:03:28
  He's like handsome Jack, you know, it was awesome.
• 1:03:33
  So I just think I'm just always impressed by people doing achieving physical feats, you
• 1:03:37
  know.
• 1:03:38
  I'm, I'm equally impressed by your son that he did that.
• 1:03:39
  So that's awesome you did.
• 1:03:40
  I love it.
• 1:03:42
  Well, I was impressed by watching Tom Brady last night too, you know, being free and
• 1:03:46
  up.
• 1:03:47
  I love watching the greats do it.
• 1:03:48
  I was rooting for him.
• 1:03:49
  I had a feeling they'd do it.
• 1:03:50
  I really did go into it because they've been beaten twice and Tom Brady, Tom Brady's
• 1:03:55
  won the really, you know, to not really be had, you know, I mean, he's such a competitor
• 1:04:00
  and he's so locked in and he makes everyone around him better, which is the definition
• 1:04:04
  of a leader and, and, and many respects.
• 1:04:06
  So that was fun to watch, both those guys, you know, Breeze and him, but good for him.
• 1:04:10
  I hope he can pull it off next weekend.
• 1:04:12
  I'd love to, I'd love to see Tom win another one, just as a fan of the game.
• 1:04:15
  Now we're bringing all the haters listening out, you know, listening to my podcast.
• 1:04:19
  They know I'm a patriot.
• 1:04:20
  It's well, patriots.
• 1:04:21
  Somebody said it to me earlier.
• 1:04:22
  They're like, I didn't know you were bucking your stand.
• 1:04:23
  I'm like, I'm not, I'm a Brady fan then.
• 1:04:25
  And, you know, just love to see that he's, he's crushing it.
• 1:04:27
  I can, I'm a cowboy fan of Diary one, but I can appreciate greatness and that's Tom
• 1:04:30
  Brady.
• 1:04:31
  And my wife wants to miss you again and Tom Brady's a Michigan guy, so that's, you know,
• 1:04:35
  there's the tie.
• 1:04:36
  There you go.
• 1:04:37
  All right.
• 1:04:38
  All right.
• 1:04:39
  We're going to put all the links in the show notes to everything.
• 1:04:46
  People follow him.
• 1:04:47
  Do what he's doing.
• 1:04:48
  If you want to level up your social media game, so Arjun, thanks very much for being
• 1:04:51
  here.
• 1:04:52
  Appreciate you, Jeff.
• 1:04:53
  Thanks for having me on, brother.
• 1:04:54
  We'll see you soon, man, in person.
• 1:04:55
  Yeah.
• 1:04:56
  And Lister and Jean are to do.
• 1:04:57
  If you like this episode, please let us know.
• 1:04:58
  Leave a review.
• 1:04:59
  Follow the links in the show notes and we'll, we'll see you on the next one.
• 1:05:02
  Bye for now.
• 1:05:03
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