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S6 E4 | Why Do I Feel So Angry? · Therapy and Theology

• Lysa TerKeurst: Welcome to this episode of Therapy & Theology. I have got Jim Cress here and Joel Muddamalle. And today's topic is one of the questions that you've submitted that I relate to, and that is: I really am angry, so now what do I do about it? Jim Cress: Are you angry right now? Lysa TerKeurst: Well, no, I'm saying the question. Jim Cress: Oh. Lysa TerKeurst: But I relate to it because sometimes things happen, and I really do feel angry about them. And a lot of times it's where something is unfair or not being justly handled, or I even have just a strong emotional reaction to an offense at hand. This is the Bible verse that I think about sometimes, and sometimes I really like it because I'm like, Yeah, yeah, that's good. Then other times I'm like, Oh, I don't really want to read this verse right now … It's from James 4. "What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God" (James 4:1-2, NIV). I remember one time, Jim, we were in a counseling session — Jim Cress: Uh-oh. Lysa TerKeurst: — and you said, "Do you know the No. 1 thing that couples fight about?" This is what you were asking me. And so I said all kinds of things, like, “Maybe it's money, maybe it's scheduling, maybe it's raising kids, or it’s managing jobs or whatever.” And so I had a bunch of thoughts about that. And you said “no” to every single thing that I said, and then you revealed the answer. You said the No. 1 thing that couples fight about is nothing at all. Jim Cress: That was in Dr. John Gottman's research. Lysa TerKeurst: Well, I remember just sitting there, like, "No, no, I have fights about something." But then oftentimes it's really not about the thing that we're arguing about — it's usually other things that are bubbling under the surface. And according to James here, instead of me pointing a finger at the other person, it's really addressing me. "What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from desires that battle within you?" And so I have to sit with that sometimes because — Jim Cress: I do too. Lysa TerKeurst: — in a moment of anger, I want somebody else to hear my side. Jim Cress: And hear it now. Lysa TerKeurst: And hear it now. I don't really want to examine whatever's going on in here [indicating her heart]. So I resonate with this listener's question. So I'm angry. What do I do about it? Jim Cress: I'm going to start with, since you did James 4, just real quickly, the idea that there's something you want. We know that wonderful word of “desire” and “lust” [is] epithumia [in Greek], which can mean “an empty cup,” as in, I want this to fill my cup, and I want it now. The lady at the fast-food drive-thru is slow, but sometimes, God, she's a lot faster than You. See, it's vertical. We're mad at God at times, and then certainly we can be mad at someone else. Like, "What are you doing, and why are you not doing what I want?" But that idea that there's something I want and I don't get it, so I murder in my heart … I mean, it's not just Jesus over there in [the Gospels] talking about, “Well, you're lustful, so you're an adulterer in your heart. If you hate someone, you're a murderer in your heart.” [See Matthew 5:21-48.] I love the clarity of that, and I'm going to say this — I hope it comes out right. Whether that's biblically accurate or not, or whether I could just close this book or not … There's so much wisdom in this book. I love it as the Word of God, but just as a wisdom book to go to … It really is that bad, Joel. If there's something I'm not getting from you, and I want it, I can just kill you. I may not come out at you that way and try to do that, but I look like I hate you inside [because] you're not doing what I want you to do. It's not just that I'm ticked, that I'm just kind of mad or something. Sometimes in my heart, as we talk with anger … I interviewed Anger, in fact, and found out her name was Pain. I interviewed Anger and found out his name was Pain or Rage, and I see that a lot with people. I'm saying you're not just angry here right now, but there's a rage going on like [we see in] a 2-year-old-to-4-year-old toddler: “I want what I want, and I want it now, and you better give it to me!” I think developmentally, a lot of our anger struggles ... There's righteous anger — don't get me wrong — but I think developmentally, a lot of our anger struggles are very, very young. I have young grandkids, so I see them, if they're mad, hit their cousin or hit someone else … You kind expect it. Or at the daycare where my grandkids go, they get a “bite report.” So I'm Granddaddy [to them], and I would call and say, "Did she get a bite report today?" A kid came at her, and she just bit her, bit the kid. You expect that to a degree from a toddler or someone, but it's going on in our country. We'll get to that later. But there's a lot of anger that I think has more just boiled over into rage. Lysa TerKeurst: I was studying the story of Joseph and how his brothers’ anger against Joseph stemmed a lot from jealousy because Joseph was the favorite child and also Joseph apparently got this lavish gift called a robe, which signaled he wasn't going to have to go out and work like his brothers were. And so there was a lot going on. There was anger, there was envy, there was jealousy, and there was strife there. Jim Cress: Maybe Joseph flaunted it a little bit too. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah, you know what? Sometimes younger children really don't have to work hard like us oldest children, but that's a story for another day. Joel Muddamalle: Ain't that the truth. Lysa TerKeurst: But as I was reading that and I saw the progression where the brothers’ anger did turn into an eventual plot to kill [Joseph], I just thought, That's so severe. But what that tells me is there's never just a little bit of anger. There's never just a little bit of jealousy. There's never just a little bit of envy and strife. Those things grow [if left] unattended in our hearts. They grow. And I know from some of the research we've looked at — I also think probably from John Gottman — that one of the No. 1 killers of a relationship is simmering resentment. Now — Jim Cress: And Duke University, by the way, not far from where we are, did a study way, way back … It goes into the 80s that they did this study, but they found empirically that the No. 1 killer in America was unforgiveness. Now you have a bestselling book on forgiveness, right, [Lysa]? Because in that unforgiveness, there is anger, and far more than that, there's just this rage: "I will not forgive you for what you've done. ‘Vengeance is mine,’ sayeth me." So they did a study in this somatic (that's the word for “body”) way … but people are like, "I'm not forgiving." That's just you drinking poison expecting somebody else to get sick. It doesn't work. Lysa TerKeurst: Right. Jim Cress: It kills people. Joel Muddamalle: I actually think that the Joseph narrative embodies that specifically. Think about — Jim Cress: Really? Joel Muddamalle: Joseph is thrown into the pit, and what do his brothers do while he's in the pit? Lysa TerKeurst: They plot. Joel Muddamalle: They plot. And the text says they're eating. They're having a meal while homeboy is in a pit. So again, sometimes we've got to take ... This is something that you've taught me, Lysa. Put yourself in the human situation [in Scripture]. You're Joseph in the pit. You're like, My brothers have just jacked me up most severely, and now they're enjoying food, and I can smell the food and hear them chewing and eating and the whole nine yards. And now I'm going to be taken away … OK? All that happened. So the simmering resentment, right? Where's the context for Joseph’s [forgiveness later in the story]? In front of a table with food and a banquet — Lysa TerKeurst: Where the brothers are asking — Joel Muddamalle: — where the whole thing has been put. And I think that Joseph really does … I think because music [and smells and everything] do this. In terms of our senses, they can draw us back to places of trauma. So here's food, here are the brothers, and they're chomping on their food. I think Joseph's like, Oh my gosh, and now the position has been flipped. I'm not in the prison now. I'm a prince of Egypt, and now what am I going to do? And it's in that same context of that anger and of all the things that happened that forgiveness actually takes place. Jim Cress: This isn't a Hollywood movie, but following that, I've often thought if it were some movie and if there were retribution or justice at the end of it, Joseph [would say], "You bunch of losers, this is who I really am, and I'm going to kill you!" There'd be a number of people — I'm not so sure a number of Christians — in our culture right now in America who would go, "Serves them right! He [would be] right to do that. He got them back." I'm like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, dial that back.” What do we learn in Genesis 50:20, which you've alluded to? My way often, as a human, is [to seek] vengeance, and yet God's ways are higher. But I think there'd be people would say, "Yeah, serves them right." I'm like, “There's a different story here, isn't there?” Lysa TerKeurst: And from Genesis 37 to Genesis 50, there's a lot of development of Joseph's calling. Joel Muddamalle: Yes, yes. Lysa TerKeurst: His character is developed to match his calling. And then toward the end, [he has gained] a lot of maturity. He's 17 when the story starts, and toward the end, when we get to Genesis 50:20, a lot of time has passed, and a lot of other things have passed. And I think it's not time that heals all wounds, but it's what we plant in the soil of that time that determines if we heal or not. And of course, we see Joseph's story turns, and he doesn't have simmering resentments. He has struggles with forgiving the brothers — he's hurt, and he acknowledges that they hurt him — but we eventually get to what Joseph says: "You intended to harm me …" (Genesis 50:20, NIV). He does not sugarcoat that. Jim Cress: No, that's true. Lysa TerKeurst: He's like, "You did intend to harm me.” Jim Cress: That's good. Lysa TerKeurst: "But God …" And I like this turn of events where you see "but God," and things turn because there's another perspective operating at the same time. "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives" (Genesis 50:20, NIV). So I want to go all the way back to the original thought: You are angry because you are not getting what you want. So I think a logical question … And I wish that we could go back and sort of replay out [Joseph’s] brothers’ story, how would things have looked … Now we know God did a lot of good from what happened, but what if the brothers would have examined their own hearts? What do I really want? And oftentimes the answer to what we really want is not super complicated. It's something pretty basic. But either because we've been given no form for our voice to be expressed, or the anger has taken over and we can't logically think of what's really driving all of this, or our desire or our need has been expressed in terms of an expectation, which already introduces animosity and simmering resentments into the conversation … Sometimes we never really get back to the original question: I'm angry because I want something. Now, what is it that I want? And if we can go back to that, we can really examine if this is an unrealistic expectation where simmering resentments are getting in there or if this is a desire that maybe … Instead of using the approach of anger, through healthy conversation, I could actually get what I want, which would help manage and dissipate and probably even do away with some of the anger. Joel Muddamalle: So I'm going to take a stab at this theologically, and then I want to hear the therapeutic part of this. But I think we can use the Joseph narrative as a foil or as an example for how to kind of navigate what you've talked about in James 4 and then something James says earlier in James 1:19. But I'm going to call this the anthropocentric view of life, and that just simply means the human-centered view. So I kind of joke about it, but basically it's that “holy trinity” of me, myself and I. Notice this — Lysa TerKeurst: Which is not the holy Trinity. Joel Muddamalle: Which is not the holy Trinity. Lysa TerKeurst: Just as a point of clarification. Joel Muddamalle: Thank you. Thank you for the theological check. Jim Cress: In case someone was not listening carefully. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, the unholy trinity. Yes, me, myself and I. But that is the lens, the framework, the anthropocentric or human-centered lens, of James 4. And he starts with, "What is the source? What's the foundation? What is the wellspring of these wars and fights among you?" And he goes, "Don't [indulge] in your passions, desires, all of these types of things." But back to the Joseph [story] and these brothers. We can't know for sure, for certain, but I think we can pretty much get very close — like 99%, I would argue — that they want their dad to love them. They want the love of a father. And in the absence of the love of a father is the presence of jealousy of a brother, right? Jim Cress: Come on. Joel Muddamalle: OK. Now look at James 1:19. Look at the structural framework. What James does for us is he gives us a theocentric or a Christocentric framework to see through the lens of Christ or to see through the lens of God: theos, Christos. Verse 19, actually, is going to read a little bit different from yours because I'm actually doing some Greek translation in my brain here really quick. But this is the main idea. He's saying this: “My dear brothers and sisters, understand this ...” (CSB). “Understand” comes first in the sentence, and it's an imperative. So he starts with this: Understand. Right? Imperative. Do this — understand — which is emphatic. And then he says “my dear,” and he softens the situation. So he goes strong with “understand,” and then he goes, “My siblings, my dear brothers and sisters …” And then he gives the scope. It’s everyone, right? “Everyone should be …” (James 1:19, CSB). And notice the list: One [thing] is quick, and two [things] are slow. One quick thing, two slow things. What is the quick thing? “Quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger” (v. 19, CSB). You've probably heard the phrase “hurry up and listen.” This is where it comes from. Everything comes back to the biblical text. And it's this desire that James is trying to get us to combat. The desires of James 4 are [desires to be] quick to feel, to fight, to be angry, to get what me, myself and I want — Lysa TerKeurst: The key is to label. Joel Muddamalle: Yes, exactly. And he's saying to slow down. And that phrase for “slow” in Greek has the sense of hesitation or delay. I think this is very important. It's not “stop” — it's “slow.” It's not that you don't have a voice or a way to feel later on and to legitimize your anger; it just says that for a second, we should consider and put a stopgap in place so that we can get the full context. Jim Cress: By the way, Joel, quickly, there is going to be with that a tertiary interpretation along with that. Because two more things we're going to add to that, which we all know and we've talked about here ... I will literally slow down my thinking, including the emotional self-regulation, and I will slow down my body, putting me on a path to respond, not react. This works if we practice it. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. Lysa TerKeurst: I've discovered that there's a worse feeling for me than whatever has stirred up the anger, and the worse feeling is regret. So I sometimes when I'm talking, I will almost feel paralyzed because I'm not able to figure out exactly what I want quickly, and instead I'm feeling this rush of emotion, this rush of energy, and that energy makes me want to be quick to speak and quick to accuse and quick in all of those ways. But I've learned until I really examine what it is that I want, I need to slow all of that down, and I don't want to say something that I regret. Because sometimes, out of strong emotion, I'll speak something or I'll make an accusation that's not really true. Jim Cress: That sets you up for a reaction hangover right there. Later, like, you get regulated, and we've talked about this a bunch — I love where you're leading us here, [Lysa] — and you go, "Can I get a redo?" Now the words are gone. But that's that reaction hangover. Joel Muddamalle: Oh man. Jim Cress: So I — Lysa TerKeurst: That's a good way to phrase that. Jim Cress: Yeah, slowing it down. Back to you. Lysa TerKeurst: But I'm thinking like, OK, in our friendship, maybe you have been really, really busy for a while, and I am having that buildup of anxiety that turns into animosity that turns into simmering resentment. And what will happen is then I start labeling you. OK, Joel has been so busy, and he doesn't want to spend time with me. Now, that's probably not what's going on in your head, but in my mind, I'm like, He's selfish. He doesn't care. Joel Muddamalle: He's consumed with his own thing. Lysa TerKeurst: He's consumed with his own thing. He's not picking up on the clues that I'm laying down, and he's just basically in his own world without any care or concern for me. Now, some of those things may be true, but a lot of them aren't true. But I have to slow down before I start making accusations like "Joel, you're so selfish" because me doing that is going to increase the anger. Now it's going to be my anger multiplied with your frustration or possibly even anger as well. But if I were to back up, I would just say to you, "OK, this is what I'm feeling, Joel.” Now whether it's justified or what, I'm not going to make an accusation. “This is what I'm feeling. This is what's feeding that feeling. This is the frustration that is causing me ... Now, Joel, I need you to share some facts with me so I can better understand the dynamic." And then once you share the facts, together, let's figure out: What do I need, what do you need, and how do we move forward? Joel Muddamalle: I think the beauty of that is you move us from monologue to dialogue of conversation, right? Monologue means everything's happening in the chamber of your heart, and you're creating presuppositions or pre-understandings and preemptive answers of what the other person is going to do and say. When you slow down and you take a self-assessment of how you're feeling, and then you invite the other person to be able to speak to the truth of what they're actually feeling, the slowing down to listen has a duality to it. It's dialogical in the sense that, yes, you get to know yourself deeper and better, but you also get to know the other person better and deeper. And that might change the entire framework of the anger that you felt in the first place. It might justify your anger, where you're like, Hey, OK, I had these thoughts, and those have been confirmed now. And now we're going to have boundaries or consequences for what we're going to do in light of it. Or it might change that anger, and in its place [you might] have empathy and compassion. Because you're like — Lysa TerKeurst: [You get a] better understanding of what's really happening in the totality of the experience [between] you and me. There is a place for righteous anger. And I've given this some thought, too, because sometimes I want to be right in anger, and that's not the same thing as righteous anger. And so I have also learned to examine my heart. What is this anger really driving me toward? Righteous anger would drive me toward doing something positive, making something right — and it's not just for my sake, but it's for a greater good. But we don't want to violate Scripture in an effort to defend another person or to defend Scripture. Joel Muddamalle: Say that again for the people in the back, Lys — that's a good one. Lysa TerKeurst: We don't want to violate Scripture in an effort to defend Scripture, defend another person or even defend ourselves. So we can't help what's coming at us, but we can help how we move toward it. And if there's righteous anger, then we have to stay in alignment with God's Word. It is OK to fight with that kind of energy for something that's right, but we have to stay in alignment with Scripture. But then the other kind of anger is “I just want to be right” anger. And so a question I know you guys have heard me say before but that really does help me is: Am I trying to prove that I'm right, or am I trying to improve this relationship? Because I can't do both at the same time. OK, Joel, any last words about anger? Joel Muddamalle: I want to hear from Jim. I felt like I kind of took us all the way through the theology piece — Jim Cress: Nailed it. Joel Muddamalle: But ... kind of. Lysa TerKeurst: Listen to you being so slow to speak. We're going to transition over to Jim. Jim Cress: You've changed. Wow. Joel Muddamalle: Look at that. Jim Cress: Have you been watching Therapy & Theology? Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, I've been embodying it. Jim Cress: I love you, buddy. Yeah, what do you want to hear? Lysa TerKeurst: Well, OK, let's say someone comes to you and they say, "I am really having an issue with anger. There's nothing major going on in terms of one incident that's making me so angry, but rather I'm finding myself quick tempered, and I'm angry about a lot. I'm angry at the person who cut me off in traffic. I'm angry at the grocery store attendant for not moving along fast enough. I'm angry at my husband. I'm angry at my kids. I don't want to be an angry person, but my actions are making me add up to be an angry person.” Jim Cress: My mind, in rigorous honesty, is going to think in that moment and hypothesize … I would not lead with this, but in my mind, I will think, I wonder if this person is in the victim triangle. They have a victim or martyr mentality. I do not judge them for that. But with that, if they're in this triangle, the victim triangle, they'll be [seeing themselves] as a victim, and they'll need God or somebody else to rescue them, or they'll make people their persecutor or what we call perpetrator. So I'm contemplating, I wonder if they're in that victim or martyr place. [This mentality says,] “Everything's after me. This is not right.” There are lots of injustices in the world. Well, breaking news, the world right now is filled with injustices, and it's going to be that way for a while. It's probably been that way for a while already. So then I want interview the anger. I'll tell that person … One example you've seen is where I would say, “Let's just have a moment to bring out a chair in my office. And that empty chair has anger in it, disappointment, what have you.” Now I say, "Let's interview that anger. Now you come sit in this chair." It's so easy. It's an experiential thing. And I say, "You become Anger. Now let me interview you. Anger, how long have you been present in Bill's life? Tell me — what were some things you were angry about in childhood?" And they just don't edit. If it comes to their mind, they say it. And I say, "Now let's go to current. What's going on right now? Is there anything, Anger, that you see with Bill, let's say, that's out of alignment?" Yeah, he knows he's overworking, he has some disappointments, and he doesn't want to face the disappointments with his kids or his spouse or whatever … his job. So he's not really grieving that because one of the stages of grief is anger turned outward at the world, or anger turned inward, which is often depression. So I can begin to interview that. Now, you folks at home, you can do that just with a journal. Put down, "Hi, my name is Anger." If you grab your thumb … A friend of mine taught me this a long time ago. There are many versions of it, but underneath anger is often hurt, injustice, fear or frustration. Grabbing your thumb helps ground your body. [But back to] hurt, injustice, fear or frustration. Let’s say, again, that you interviewed Anger and found out his name, her name, was Hurt. Hurt, injustice ... Change it to Injustice, and this will spell “huff.” I'm in a huff. Hurt, injustice … "This is not fair what's going on." Often you may be right. Hurt, injustice, fear … "I'm afraid, I don't like what's going on." Or the idea is that I'm just frustrated, with a blocked goal. You can go deeper over the napkin at Panera or Starbucks and say, “Let's do this right here. What's under that? Where do we have that in the Bible?” Proverbs 20:5 says, "The purposes of a person's heart are deep waters" (NIV). You need to not snorkel but do a little scuba [diving] and saying, “Let's dig beneath. Let's go a little lower … Tell me more.” Three words: "Tell me more.” I find the average person, without having to go to counseling, can sit down with someone and say, "You know what? I think that's what it is.” Here come the tears, here comes something else, or here comes past betrayal and something new. Maybe a friend also betrayed their spouse, and now you have PTSD. So interview Anger. And you can do it by yourself: What's out of alignment in my life? And then if you [discover] this is unjust — this is really righteous indignation — I would say all right. But Joel's going to remind us, and we're going to remind ourselves, how can I be angry but sin not, and not want to turn and execute judgment on people? People will get, through that simple thing I've just done, tons of data. And they can do it. Lysa TerKeurst: I like that a lot. And then I would add, if I might, a second question. Jim Cress: Please. Lysa TerKeurst: So it's like, OK, I'm hurt. So I am interviewing Anger, and I discover I'm hurt or I'm frustrated, whichever of the four that you land on. And then I add this question: What is the story I'm telling myself? Jim Cress: That's brilliant. Lysa TerKeurst: Because when you add on “this is the story I'm telling myself,” that's where you can pick up on [things like] I feel like everyone's out to get me. I feel like nothing ever goes my way — Jim Cress: God is certainly not intervening as He should. Lysa TerKeurst: Yes. And that's where we can start to pick up on … I bristle every time I hear “victim mentality.” And it may be because sometimes I have a victim mentality. I don't know. Jim Cress: I still do from time to time. Lysa TerKeurst: But I don't want to be caught in that victim triangle. I don't want to have a perpetrator and a rescuer. I want to get out of that. And so it helps me when I say, "OK, these things are happening. The anger is an indication of a hurt that I'm feeling, and the hurt that I'm feeling … I'm going to journal all about that." But then it's even more important for me to say, "And this is the story I'm telling myself …" Because if there is any of that victimization or if there is any of that thought where this proves that I'm less than, this proves that He just doesn't care, or whatever, the story that I'm telling myself is where the real trauma sometimes is sitting. And so that helps me, to add that on. And then once I see what I'm telling myself, now what's something positive that I can do not to sit in these hard feelings [forever] but to start making progress toward something better? Jim Cress: Yeah, a little tricky thing. Boy, wow, I hope this is being recorded! That was really good, seriously. My goodness. And practical, which is part of your original vision with Therapy & Theology. We're getting a lot of theology and just some practical counseling and therapy right here at this table. Thank you for what you did with that. I have never said this to you before, but I'm going to say it now. I am not a proponent of what is popular in our culture. I understand why it's there, but I'm not a proponent of “anger management.” I'm going to manage my anger, and I'm going to … Maybe it's court appointed for some people. [They say,] “Let me just manage it.” No, no, no. I want to say, “What?” I want to interview my anger and find out what's going on. Anger's often a “check engine” light on the dashboard of my life. And if I go below and pull codes and go, Oh, [I see what] this is … that light goes off. I just did it with my Lexus down the street. The car wouldn't start. The light was on. They had to fix it. It wasn't cheap, right? But it was worth it: Now I can drive again. I wouldn't have been able to fix it on my own. The idea is not to say, “I'm not going to manage my anger” but to say, “What's it trying to do?” And when I go below and think beneath and apply the Bible to it and rightly [analyze] this, analyzing the stories in my head … Guess what? The anger gets managed. I don't want to put ... To quote C.S. Lewis, basically he said — it's a paraphrase but it's in there — to put first things first, and second things will fall right in place. But if you put second things first, you'll lose first and second things. So the second thing is to get rid of the anger and manage it and just interview it, and then anger will be well managed. Lysa TerKeurst: That's so good. Well, thank you. Joel, do you have any last words you want to say before wrap up today? Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, I just want to quote James 1:20. We talked about verse 19, and we know context is so important. Just as a way to summarize exactly what Jim just said and what our discussion has been, this is what James 1:20 says: "For human anger …" It's important that he emphasizes human anger because it's different from righteous anger. He goes, "For human anger does not accomplish God's righteousness" (CSB). Lysa TerKeurst: So good, so helpful. I think I need to go home and pull out my journal and examine where have I been frustrated or hurt lately that could potentially leak out in my life as anger and do some self-examination. My prayer is that this has been a non-threatening way for us to examine anger that honestly I think we all deal with at times. So I hope today has been really helpful.