Latest / How To Protect The Ocean / From Oceanographer to Eco-Baker: Maddie Hamann on Building a Sustainable Bread Brand to Help Protect the Ocean

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From Oceanographer to Eco-Baker: Maddie Hamann on Building a Sustainable Bread Brand to Help Protect the Ocean · How To Protect The Ocean

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  Welcome back to the podcast. We have a
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  special episode for you
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  today because this is an ongoing
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  thing that I've been trying to do for the
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  podcast. I talk a lot about oceans and
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  protecting the ocean.
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  And this is why you're here. You're here
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  because of how to protect the ocean.
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  That's the name of this
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  podcast. Well, we protect the ocean by
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  supporting businesses who
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  have values that are there for
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  that are good for the ocean. And today we
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  are showcasing one of
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  those businesses that talk
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  about these values that have these values
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  to not only just make people
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  happy, but also just because
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  this is what's important to them. You
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  know, protecting the
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  environment, making something
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  healthy, taking away chemicals from food.
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  And today we're going
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  to be talking to Maddie
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  Hemman, who's actually a former
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  oceanographer, well educated
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  oceanographer who is here to talk
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  about the business that she co-founded
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  with her husband called
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  Pacha, which is a buckwheat bread,
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  a loaf of bread that you can buy in the
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  US and you can enjoy. It's tasty. It's
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  healthy. It's made
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  with not only love, but
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  actually healthy things that are good for
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  your body, less chemicals or no chemicals
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  and just something that's really good.
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  She tells us how she makes the bread, how
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  they make the bread, how the company came
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  to be, how she went from oceanography to
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  supporting an organization or starting a
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  company, co-founding a company that has
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  to do with selling bread. We're going to
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  talk all about that on today's episode of
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  the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  Let's start the show.
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  Hey everybody, welcome back to another
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  exciting episode of the How to Protect
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  the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew
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  Lewin. And this is the podcast where you
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  find out what's happening with the ocean,
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  how you could speak up for the ocean and
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  what you can do to live for a better
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  ocean by taking action.
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  Now, today's episode, we're going to be
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  talking with Maddie Hemman, who is an
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  oceanographer and an engineer and someone
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  who's quite intelligent and says, you
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  know what, I want to make
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  a difference in the world.
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  So I am going to co-found a company that
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  sells buckwheat bread. Now, did I expect
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  that to happen when I first heard about
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  Patche, the company that she
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  co-founded with her husband?
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  No, I didn't expect to hear that one bit.
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  But as I got to know more and more about
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  the story, I started to think to myself,
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  I said, hey, you know what, this is
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  something that I think the
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  audience would really appreciate.
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  You know, somebody who changed their path
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  multiple times because they wanted to
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  have an effect on the planet. They wanted
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  to do something that's good, not only for
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  the planet, for the people who live on
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  this planet. And she does that for her
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  customers. She does that for the
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  company's customers. And they have values
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  that are good. And do they market based
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  on, hey, we do some good things. We have
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  really good values for the environment,
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  for the planet and for you? No. They say,
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  this is great bread. You're going to want
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  to eat it because it's tasty. And it's a
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  little good for you too, but it's really
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  tasty. You're going to want it. And
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  that's how they market it.
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  I thought it was a really good episode
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  that I think everybody should listen to.
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  So enjoy this interview with Maddie
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  Harmon, former oceanographer now
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  co-founder of Patra bread enjoy and I
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  will talk to you after.
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  Hey, Maddie, welcome to the how to
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  protect the ocean podcast. Are you ready
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  to talk about Patra and regenerative
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  agriculture all in the context of
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  protecting the
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  environment and growing a business?
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  Let's do this. All right. I'm excited for
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  this because as I mentioned, like this is
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  a fun podcast. The stuff I've been
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  wanting to do for a long time, I'm having
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  businesses on that are good for the
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  environment that allow us to make better
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  decisions for the ocean and for the
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  environment in general, reducing climate
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  change and so forth. And people can make
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  a buck. And it just goes to show that you
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  can you can grow your revenue and you can
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  protect the ocean and the planet at the
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  same time. So I'm really happy that
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  you're here to share your journey.
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  It's an interesting one because you do
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  have a background in oceanography. So
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  we're going to talk about that. But let's
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  get to know you a little bit and then
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  we'll get to know Patra a little bit. So
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  why don't you just let us know, Maddie,
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  who you are and what you do.
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  Yeah, so yeah, my name is Maddie Hamon
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  and I am the co-founder and director of
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  marketing for Patra. We make a an organic
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  gluten free sprouted buckwheat bread and
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  it is delicious and nutritious.
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  And at the same time, it is supporting
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  regenerative
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  agriculture and saving the planet.
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  That's awesome. That's awesome. Now you
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  got your start in oceanography like you
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  got that's that's what you went to school
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  for. How did all that happen? Did you
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  want to be an oceanographer when you were
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  a kid? Can you take us
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  through that process?
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  Yeah. So no, I wasn't the kid that always
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  like always dreamed of being a marine
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  biologist. I, you know, I, I was a I was
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  a super nerd in school was like always
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  the A plus student really good at math.
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  And my journey kind of was like, well, I
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  should just do the hardest thing because
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  it's always you can always switch out of
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  the hardest thing if harder, you don't
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  like it or whatever.
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  And yeah, so I went to school for civil
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  engineering for my bachelor's degree. And
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  sometime along the way, I realized like,
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  I don't really want to design highway
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  overpasses for the rest of my life. That
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  led me to fluid mechanics.
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  And my one of my mentors in college, I
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  took some of his graduate
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  level classes on turbulence and
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  he kind of introduced me to the idea of
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  oceanography. Okay. And, you know, from
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  the from the perspective of a civil
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  engineer, oceanography is studied like,
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  okay, well, how can we protect our
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  coastal infrastructure? How can we
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  understand how storms are
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  going to impact humans, etc.
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  Yeah, very much like the Army Corps of
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  Engineers, essentially.
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  Yeah, yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And but
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  through that, I discovered like, oh,
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  well, there's people who are just purely
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  studying the science of the ocean and the
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  physics of the ocean. And so that is then
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  I found myself interested in that and
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  pursuing a graduate degree in physical
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  oceanography after college.
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  And again, it was in some ways, it was
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  like, this seems like a really good way
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  for me to use the very particular like
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  math and science skills that I gained to
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  help humanity. I was motivated by the I
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  mean, I came from the Midwest and my
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  understanding of what was happening with
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  the planet was like,
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  okay, the climate is changing.
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  And I was like, we must not know enough
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  about it. Otherwise, like, things would
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  be different. And so I thought going into
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  grad school that understanding more about
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  the climate and and how the ocean impacts
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  the whole ocean climate system would be
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  the best way for me to help with the
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  issue of climate change.
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  And I think, I mean, as I was incredibly
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  interesting and an amazing experience I
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  learned so much. And the more I learned,
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  the more I realized,
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  like, wow, we know a lot.
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  And I think that really knowing what was
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  happening was not the thing that was
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  going to start changing our behavior as a
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  species on this planet. And there's some
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  time in my third or fourth year, I
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  realized that I probably would not pursue
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  pure research as my as my life, I thought
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  I would maybe get into science
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  and education or, you know, some
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  something in that vein. Yeah. And then it
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  was in the last two years of my time as
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  an oceanographer that I met my partner,
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  Adam. He's my husband, he's my co
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  founder. And he introduced me to the
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  concept of regenerative agriculture.
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  And he has been he's a serial
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  entrepreneur. Okay. And he has founded
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  businesses, catering restaurants, and
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  then most recently, a business called
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  Boochcraft that makes a hard kombucha.
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  And he was in a, when at the time we met,
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  he was in the space of
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  there was modern
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  of his roles at those companies and found
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  himself in a place like, "Well, I'm ready
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  for the next thing." And that happened to
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  be this bread, what we
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  now call Pacha bread.
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  And yeah, he kind of got the ball rolling
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  and pretty soon in the
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  early days, I realized
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  that I wanted to be involved because I
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  saw the opportunity to
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  really use business to
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  shift the paradigm that the food system
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  is currently in, in a way
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  that actually sequesters
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  carbon and actually makes a big
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  difference for many
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  ways for the environment.
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  Yeah, it's really interesting. You had
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  quite the journey going
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  from engineering to, okay,
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  I know a lot about this, you know,
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  getting into grad school,
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  I want to learn more about
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  climate change and some of the things
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  that we are, you know,
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  what do we know and how
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  can I help, you know, contribute to that
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  knowledge? And you're
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  like, "Well, hold on
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  a second. We know way too much about
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  this, but we're not
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  changing." Like, which is so
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  true. Like we do know a lot. We're still
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  discovering things, but we do know a lot.
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  It seems like every time we discovered it
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  becomes more and more
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  grim and doom and gloom,
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  and then we're look around and people
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  aren't changing. Now you
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  happen to meet your now
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  husband who is also a serial
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  entrepreneur, but also for
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  like, seems like good for the
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  planet type of businesses. And then you
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  get into this. So you
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  basically went from, "I'm
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  going to do something and do something
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  really impactful and
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  hard to I'm going to change
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  the way we look at things so that we can
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  help this climate change thing. We know a
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  lot about climate change. Now we need to
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  act. So I'm going to
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  help in that action." That's
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  quite the jump from like doing research
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  to business and did
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  that. Did you find that a
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  difficult, like that to
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  be a difficult transition?
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  I mean, yes and no. I studied
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  observational oceanography.
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  So my group, my advisor and
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  my group, we would go out to sea and we
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  would, you know, we'd
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  write grants, we would build
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  instrumentation, we would take a whole
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  crew of engineers and
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  students out to sea to gather
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  data and then we would come back and
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  analyze the data. And so
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  really like two thirds of
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  my thesis, I spent more on the side of
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  like writing grants and
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  administrating my own.
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  I collected my own data and wrote my own
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  grant and everything. So a
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  lot of that was like managing
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  teams. Yeah. And so those skills
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  transferred pretty readily.
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  And then, you know, there's
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  this whole section of my brain that's
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  just like, knows a bunch
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  of differential equations
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  that I don't really need to know anymore.
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  I don't know how you make the bread, but
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  if you need to use
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  differential equations,
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  maybe you'll be that'll that'll help. But
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  for now, probably not.
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  But even going to like
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  you had that interest in maybe science
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  communication and going into
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  a marketing position or taking
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  a marketing position within this company
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  really is saying, hey,
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  look, like you look at science
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  communication in a way of like changing
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  behaviors around through the
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  communication. And now
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  you're like, okay, I want this behavior
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  change to really go
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  towards I want you to buy the
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  bread. And so how do I convince you to
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  buy this bread? And now there's always a
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  divergent way of doing things for me from
• 1:12:21
  a scientific and from a nature
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  based perspective, I'm just like, get
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  this bread because it's it's probably
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  good for you, but it's also better for
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  the environment. So I'm
• 1:12:28
  going to make a decision because it's
• 1:12:30
  better for the environment. But a lot of
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  people who own these
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  businesses are like, I want
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  like people don't always buy that way.
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  I'm not the right I'm probably out of the
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  norm from from your regular
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  customer base. And you can
• 1:12:40
  correct me if I'm wrong. But how was that
• 1:12:42
  to going from convincing? Is it going
• 1:12:44
  from convincing like, oh, look, this is
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  good for nature or to just be like, you
• 1:12:48
  want to buy this product because it's
• 1:12:49
  good for you. It tastes good. You know,
• 1:12:50
  it's a different way of looking up bread.
• 1:12:53
  Like, how do how is that transition going
• 1:12:55
  from a very like, you know,
• 1:12:57
  oceanographic, very to the point type of
• 1:13:00
  of writing style and communication style
• 1:13:03
  to, hey, this is this is some fun bread
• 1:13:06
  for you to eat. And it's good for you.
• 1:13:07
  Yeah, I mean, I guess I'd say it's a
• 1:13:10
  different kind of to the point. But
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  you're you're totally spot on. And what
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  it's one of the things that has been,
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  it's been a learning piece for me. And as
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  you know, as somebody coming from a
• 1:13:22
  science background and into the world of
• 1:13:24
  marketing, it's like, you, you're doing
• 1:13:27
  this dance where you're, you're you are
• 1:13:29
  in a way, communicating, like trying to
• 1:13:33
  get a message across.
• 1:13:35
  But you have to be meeting people where
• 1:13:36
  they're at. And frankly, most people
• 1:13:39
  don't don't care about the sustainability
• 1:13:45
  piece like, yeah, they could say that
• 1:13:48
  they care. But when push comes to shove,
• 1:13:49
  it's like the bread's gotta the bread has
• 1:13:53
  to be meeting a need of there's a lot of
• 1:13:56
  people, a lot of people's
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  needs are in the cost arena.
• 1:14:00
  And our bread is not the cheapest bread
• 1:14:03
  on the on the shelf. So the thing that we
• 1:14:06
  have to really lead with is like, hey,
• 1:14:09
  this bread, it's, it's better for you.
• 1:14:13
  That is much more motivating for people
• 1:14:15
  than this bread is better for the planet
• 1:14:18
  that you live on. It's like, it's too
• 1:14:20
  abstract a concept for people to say, I'm
• 1:14:23
  going to spend $2 more on a loaf of bread
• 1:14:25
  because it's gonna sequester some carbon
• 1:14:28
  or something. No, people
• 1:14:31
  it's more of an afterthought, right?
• 1:14:32
  Like, so say I'm sharing the bread with
• 1:14:34
  somebody and like, oh, this is really
• 1:14:35
  good. I'm like, yeah, it's really healthy
• 1:14:36
  for you. It's got all this. It's got this
• 1:14:38
  amount of protein, this, you know,
• 1:14:39
  reduced carbs and stuff like that. Then I
• 1:14:41
  can say, oh, by the way, it's also good
• 1:14:43
  for the environment. And they're like,
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  oh, that's cool. But this really tastes
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  good. You know, like, that's probably
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  it's more of like the after like the
• 1:14:48
  secondary thought afterwards and be like,
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  oh, yeah, by the way, they do this new
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  agricultural thing. And if you're
• 1:14:52
  interested in agriculture, then maybe you
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  go on with that conversation. Is that is
• 1:14:56
  that pretty much on point?
• 1:14:57
  Yeah, that's on point. And it's, and it's
• 1:15:00
  like, it's on point. And I'll just put
• 1:15:04
  some language to it. It's, it's a
• 1:15:06
  customer retention tactic more than
• 1:15:08
  anything else. So someone starts buying
• 1:15:11
  our bread. And we don't like we don't
• 1:15:13
  lead our advertisement, our hook isn't
• 1:15:16
  like, bread, that's safe, you know,
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  that's not the hook. The hook is this
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  bread is tasty. It's allergen free. It's,
• 1:15:24
  you know, like got good, complete,
• 1:15:27
  plant based protein, etc. And then, you
• 1:15:31
  know, they start getting our emails. And
• 1:15:33
  emails, we start talking about like, Hey,
• 1:15:35
  did you know that this bread was grown
• 1:15:37
  with regenerative buckwheat? Or Hey, did
• 1:15:39
  you know that our, our packaging is fully
• 1:15:41
  compostable, like home
• 1:15:43
  compostable. And then
• 1:15:44
  it's where the values of the company make
• 1:15:46
  a difference. Yeah, yeah. And people
• 1:15:48
  start realizing like, Oh, this bread,
• 1:15:50
  this company is really cool. I want to
• 1:15:52
  keep buying from this company. I'm going
• 1:15:54
  to convince my kids to eat this bread.
• 1:15:56
  Yeah, even if it, you know, like, even if
• 1:15:59
  it's not the first thing that their kids
• 1:16:00
  are like, yeah, you know, yeah, it's a
• 1:16:04
  state. I mean, let's be honest, like
• 1:16:05
  bread is a staple in a lot of households,
• 1:16:08
  right, especially in North America, bread
• 1:16:10
  is a staple. And so, you know, I grew up
• 1:16:13
  toasted in the morning,
• 1:16:14
  or I'll have a sandwich or, you know, so
• 1:16:17
  it's part of that, that process. But
• 1:16:19
  lately, it seems as though over the past
• 1:16:21
  maybe decade, bread has become a bit of
• 1:16:24
  like regular bread, your typical bread
• 1:16:26
  that you buy in a grocery store. People
• 1:16:29
  have had gluten allergies, you know,
• 1:16:31
  people like, well, it has a lot of
• 1:16:32
  complex carbs. So it's not like, or hard
• 1:16:35
  to break down in the body, you know, it's
• 1:16:37
  going to create like, it's not going to
• 1:16:38
  be healthy for you. If you want to lose
• 1:16:40
  weight, or you want to be in shape, you
• 1:16:41
  lose your bread, you feel better, all
• 1:16:42
  this kind of stuff. And this way, I'm
• 1:16:44
  looking at your weight, you know, I'm going to be like,
• 1:16:44
  you know, on my website, it's like, for
• 1:16:45
  people who've given up on bread, it's
• 1:16:47
  such a great message. Because so many
• 1:16:48
  people have been like, you know, screw
• 1:16:49
  that, I'm just gonna avoid bread
• 1:16:51
  altogether. But people love bread. I love
• 1:16:53
  bread. I have like, thoughts of my dad
• 1:16:56
  when I was younger, like on a Sunday, and
• 1:16:58
  eating like T biz and, you know, in front
• 1:16:59
  of the TV with butter and stuff. And but
• 1:17:01
  like, now I don't do it, because I'm
• 1:17:03
  like, Well, this bread's not good for me,
• 1:17:04
  the ones that I buy at the grocery store.
• 1:17:06
  How do I get good bread? So I think I
• 1:17:08
  love this messaging. Because it's really
• 1:17:09
  just being like, this is a new way of
• 1:17:11
  thinking of bread where you can have it.
• 1:17:13
  You know, it's almost like have your cake in your bread. And I don't think I can have it.
• 1:17:14
  you to have your bread and eat it too,
• 1:17:16
  where you don't have to
• 1:17:17
  feel sorry for yourself
• 1:17:18
  after you drink, after you eat it, right?
• 1:17:20
  So I think that's a
• 1:17:21
  really interesting messaging
• 1:17:23
  to get to. I love
• 1:17:24
  that. I like that aspect.
• 1:17:26
  I might steal that, have your bread.
• 1:17:27
  Yeah, there you go. Right?
• 1:17:30
  I'm not bad. I'm going to get for a
• 1:17:31
  little bit of marketing.
• 1:17:34
  But let's talk about the
• 1:17:35
  bread. Like why is it, like you mentioned
• 1:17:38
  it a little bit before
• 1:17:39
  about regenerative agriculture,
• 1:17:41
  like how is this bread so different than
• 1:17:44
  the bread that we would
• 1:17:45
  like sort of the quote
• 1:17:47
  unquote typical bread that we
• 1:17:49
  would see in a grocery store?
• 1:17:51
  Yeah. Okay, so there's two there's two
• 1:17:54
  like important parts of
• 1:17:56
  this. One is the actual
• 1:17:57
  bread itself and why it's different
• 1:18:00
  nutritionally ingredients
• 1:18:01
  wise. So our bread is we make
• 1:18:04
  the bread from whole groats of growth
• 1:18:08
  seeds, buckwheat seeds.
• 1:18:10
  Yeah. Buckwheat is not wheat.
• 1:18:15
  It's completely gluten free. It actually
• 1:18:17
  the plant is it doesn't
• 1:18:18
  it's not like a grass.
• 1:18:21
  It's not a grain. It's like this little
• 1:18:23
  flat. It's like these
• 1:18:25
  little white flowers that
• 1:18:26
  have like a very green leafy plant and
• 1:18:29
  it's a cover crop. So
• 1:18:31
  it's completely different
• 1:18:33
  than wheat. It's a totally different
• 1:18:34
  thing. High in protein.
• 1:18:38
  It's one of the only complete
• 1:18:41
  plant based proteins. You know, you got
• 1:18:42
  like your quinoa, your
• 1:18:43
  pumpkin seeds, your hemp.
• 1:18:47
  And buckwheat is one of the only it's
• 1:18:50
  like nine or 10 plant
• 1:18:52
  based protein sources that
• 1:18:55
  are complete. And so and then we, we
• 1:19:00
  actually don't use flour
• 1:19:02
  to make our bread. We soak
• 1:19:04
  the whole seeds. So that that process
• 1:19:08
  actually starts removing
• 1:19:10
  what are called anti nutrients
• 1:19:13
  that bind to the nutrients that are in
• 1:19:15
  the bread. Normally
• 1:19:17
  those things would just cause
• 1:19:19
  you to pass some of the nutrients that
• 1:19:21
  are available from
• 1:19:22
  waste. Yeah. Yeah. And then
• 1:19:25
  we, we blend it, we ferment it and the
• 1:19:29
  fermentation process, we use a wild
• 1:19:31
  fermentation. We don't
• 1:19:32
  add any yeast, but the, the yeast that
• 1:19:35
  are on the buckwheat
• 1:19:35
  groats ferment the bread.
• 1:19:37
  It begins, it kicks off the digestion
• 1:19:39
  process. So it's like
• 1:19:40
  almost like it's predigested.
• 1:19:42
  So the bread is really easy to digest.
• 1:19:45
  It's full of nutrients.
• 1:19:46
  Buckwheat's really high
• 1:19:47
  in magnesium, which is nutrient that most
• 1:19:51
  people are missing. And it's like anybody
• 1:19:54
  can eat this bread unless they're
• 1:19:56
  allergic to buckwheat,
• 1:19:57
  which is like 0.0001% of the
• 1:19:59
  North American population. Okay. So it
• 1:20:03
  really is like it's, and
• 1:20:05
  it just feels amazing. Yeah.
• 1:20:08
  It feels really good in the body and I
• 1:20:11
  eat it every day, like
• 1:20:12
  multiple times a day. And
• 1:20:14
  you don't get like that. You know, I have
• 1:20:16
  some people they have
• 1:20:16
  like, I've had bread
• 1:20:18
  before, like I said, I love bread and I
• 1:20:20
  feel groggy after I feel
• 1:20:21
  kind of like, you know,
• 1:20:23
  sluggish after and you're just like, why
• 1:20:24
  did I have so much bread and that kind of
• 1:20:26
  stuff? Almost to the point where like, I
• 1:20:27
  don't want, if I have
• 1:20:28
  a hamburger, a lot of
• 1:20:28
  times I just have the patty. I don't have
• 1:20:30
  the bread that goes
• 1:20:31
  with it because I don't
• 1:20:32
  want to feel crappy after. So this you're
• 1:20:35
  saying you actually
• 1:20:35
  don't feel that you just
• 1:20:36
  feel, you feel maybe energized or
• 1:20:39
  something like that. You
• 1:20:40
  just feel good. Like you can
• 1:20:41
  just go on with the rest of your day
• 1:20:42
  without being affected.
• 1:20:43
  Yeah. It just feels good.
• 1:20:44
  And like, you can eat a couple of slices
• 1:20:46
  of Pacha bread and you'll
• 1:20:49
  be full for the morning,
• 1:20:51
  you know, like, yeah, that's great. Quick
• 1:20:53
  sugary head. You get
• 1:20:56
  level of boost and crash.
• 1:20:58
  Yeah. Okay. That's awesome. So yeah. And
• 1:21:01
  now like that's,
• 1:21:02
  that's the first part of it.
• 1:21:04
  And then there's another part, which I
• 1:21:05
  assume is how it's, it's
• 1:21:07
  grown and, and things. Yes.
• 1:21:09
  Yeah. And so then the second piece about
• 1:21:11
  the bread is, and this is
• 1:21:13
  the piece we don't always
• 1:21:14
  talk about first thing, but all of our
• 1:21:17
  buckwheat is grown by certified
• 1:21:19
  regenerative farmers.
• 1:21:21
  And for, for your listeners who aren't
• 1:21:24
  familiar with regenerative agriculture,
• 1:21:27
  the basic idea is that regenerative
• 1:21:30
  farmers are taking care of
• 1:21:33
  their soil. So by taking care of
• 1:21:36
  the soil, they're doing a few things.
• 1:21:37
  They are, they are, well, they're
• 1:21:40
  turning, they're turning
• 1:21:42
  carbon from the atmosphere into soil
• 1:21:45
  carbon. They're making a really healthy,
• 1:21:50
  robust soil ecosystem
• 1:21:52
  so that, you know, you can imagine like,
• 1:21:55
  when you, when you have
• 1:21:57
  like a new bag of potting soil,
• 1:22:00
  right? And you, you can just see that
• 1:22:04
  it's like, it's all fluffy and airy and
• 1:22:06
  healthy and you pour
• 1:22:08
  some water on it and it soaks it up like
• 1:22:10
  a sponge versus like compacted dirt from
• 1:22:13
  your kids playground or
• 1:22:15
  whatever. Yeah. It creates this, this
• 1:22:19
  ecosystem, this network that
• 1:22:20
  has air and it, and it allows
• 1:22:23
  life to move through it. And the life is
• 1:22:25
  what's storing the carbon,
• 1:22:26
  all of the little critters
• 1:22:27
  that are carbon-based life forms. And
• 1:22:30
  then, like I, like I
• 1:22:32
  mentioned, that soil is able to retain
• 1:22:34
  water. So regenerative farm. Much better
• 1:22:38
  than what you would
• 1:22:39
  normally, like regular farming and
• 1:22:41
  regular soil, right? Yeah, exactly. So
• 1:22:42
  like, yeah, if you'd imagine on a, on a,
• 1:22:44
  on a conventional farm,
• 1:22:47
  you've got compacted soil that you are,
• 1:22:49
  you're, you know, you're tilling the
• 1:22:51
  field, you're adding
• 1:22:53
  in your, your synthetic fertilizers to be
• 1:22:57
  able to grow something
• 1:22:58
  there because there's, you know,
• 1:22:59
  the soil is lifeless. Right. And then
• 1:23:03
  when it rains, a bunch of
• 1:23:05
  that dirt is being washed off
• 1:23:07
  the field. So we have major flooding
• 1:23:09
  issues across the country.
• 1:23:11
  I mean, in California, I'm
• 1:23:12
  especially aware of it, but what, what
• 1:23:15
  you'll see in areas where there are
• 1:23:17
  regenerative farms is like
• 1:23:19
  the, the conventional farms, if there's a
• 1:23:22
  big rain event, they've just got like
• 1:23:23
  ditches full of like
• 1:23:25
  red, you know, muddy water. And then you
• 1:23:28
  go onto the, onto the
• 1:23:29
  regenerative farm. And there's not
• 1:23:32
  even really a flooding issue at all,
• 1:23:34
  because the soil is taking up the water.
• 1:23:39
  This is so crazy too,
• 1:23:40
  because like you think if you, if you
• 1:23:42
  look at how water moves nowadays,
• 1:23:45
  especially when we get these
• 1:23:46
  bigger rainfalls due to climate change
• 1:23:48
  and more sort of extreme weather
• 1:23:49
  patterns, even just regular
• 1:23:50
  weather patterns, you start to see water
• 1:23:52
  move differently. And people are
• 1:23:54
  wondering what is going on? Is it the way
• 1:23:56
  you know, we're routing water, you know,
• 1:23:58
  that which is, which is part of it, but
• 1:23:59
  we never really talk about how
• 1:24:02
  soil changes over time, especially when
• 1:24:05
  we're farming everything, we go into like
• 1:24:07
  monoculture type of agriculture,
• 1:24:09
  we're going to like soil impacted, and we
• 1:24:12
  don't talk about how
• 1:24:13
  important it is for soil to be in,
• 1:24:17
  in quote unquote healthy shape. And you
• 1:24:20
  know, this is regenerative farming
• 1:24:22
  practice, which is what we used to do
• 1:24:25
  back in the day when we needed the soil
• 1:24:28
  to be to be good. We got out of that for
• 1:24:31
  some reason, and because maybe it was a
• 1:24:33
  quicker return, I'm not sure. And now
• 1:24:35
  we're, we're starting to see some some
• 1:24:37
  companies go back to it. It's just insane
• 1:24:40
  to me to really think about and we don't
• 1:24:42
  document that we don't talk about it as
• 1:24:44
  much as we should, to say, hey, we're going to do this.
• 1:24:45
  And if we're going to do this as much as
• 1:24:45
  we should, to say, hey, you know what, if
• 1:24:48
  we take care of our soil, like farmers
• 1:24:49
  take care of our soil, they're allowed to
• 1:24:51
  take care of the soil, we will get a much
• 1:24:53
  better system, like just environmentally,
• 1:24:56
  not only from a climate change
• 1:24:57
  perspective, but just from a safety and
• 1:25:00
  water movement perspective. Totally.
• 1:25:03
  Yeah. And like, I mean, since we're on
• 1:25:05
  the water, there's more about
• 1:25:06
  regenerative agriculture, but when on the
• 1:25:08
  water perspective, you know, like, in the
• 1:25:11
  oceans, there are there are huge issues.
• 1:25:15
  Yeah. Dead zones just from
• 1:25:17
  the nutrient runoff. Oh my gosh.
• 1:25:20
  I mean, huge issues, the Gulf of Mexico
• 1:25:22
  is like, yeah, I used to work in there.
• 1:25:24
  Yeah, it's not really. Yeah. But, you
• 1:25:27
  know, so the one regenerative agriculture
• 1:25:30
  is removing the need for
• 1:25:33
  those synthetic inputs.
• 1:25:35
  Yeah, you know, like, or at least
• 1:25:37
  significantly reducing it so that you
• 1:25:41
  don't have this issue where people are
• 1:25:43
  just dumping nitrogen onto the onto the
• 1:25:45
  soil. And then the rain is washing it off
• 1:25:48
  down to the waterways.
• 1:25:50
  But there's also, you know, there's a lot
• 1:25:52
  of there's a lot of issues on our reefs
• 1:25:53
  and in our in our coastal zones, just
• 1:25:57
  from sediment itself, like, yes, I didn't
• 1:25:59
  run off affecting the quality, the water
• 1:26:03
  quality, the, you know, the marine life
• 1:26:06
  that's in the coastal zones, sometimes is
• 1:26:09
  damaged or killed by
• 1:26:11
  overloaded sediment from the water.
• 1:26:14
  Yeah, I think about just the impact of
• 1:26:16
  the Mississippi, how far it reaches into
• 1:26:18
  the Gulf of Mexico, that current that
• 1:26:21
  comes out of the Mississippi. I mean,
• 1:26:22
  oftentimes the impacts of hypoxia from
• 1:26:25
  the just from the nutrient pollution and
• 1:26:29
  the phytoplankton
• 1:26:30
  growing and won't get into it.
• 1:26:32
  But you can go all the way to Texas, like
• 1:26:33
  it's huge. And just the sediment carries,
• 1:26:36
  you know, pretty far out there in the
• 1:26:38
  middle of the Gulf of Mexico or in the
• 1:26:39
  middle of like the part the northern part
• 1:26:41
  of the Gulf of Mexico.
• 1:26:43
  And it's just it's insane to to think
• 1:26:45
  about we don't talk about it a lot. But
• 1:26:48
  it's insane to even think about how that
• 1:26:50
  soil that's going there could be already
• 1:26:52
  impacted from fertilizers from chemicals
• 1:26:55
  that are used all the way up
• 1:26:57
  and down the Mississippi River.
• 1:27:00
  You know, that's obviously the major
• 1:27:01
  river in the US, but other rivers are
• 1:27:03
  pretty much impacted very similar. Just
• 1:27:06
  not maybe not to that, that size because
• 1:27:09
  it's just such a big, such a big river
• 1:27:11
  and travel so far up up the Midwest.
• 1:27:14
  For sure.
• 1:27:15
  Yeah. Yeah. And so like, like I said,
• 1:27:18
  there's other, we
• 1:27:19
  mentioned the, the chemicals.
• 1:27:23
  And so like, oh, swimming
• 1:27:24
  in the Ohio River. Oh, yeah.
• 1:27:30
  But yeah, the you know, the other the
• 1:27:32
  other major thing that is a boon for the
• 1:27:36
  environment and a boon for people's
• 1:27:38
  health is that regenerative agriculture
• 1:27:40
  is essentially like farming in a way that
• 1:27:44
  the ecosystem is in balance.
• 1:27:47
  So we have an issue with pests.
• 1:27:50
  You know, like, an example, slugs on an
• 1:27:53
  on an orchard. Cool. Well, we just let
• 1:27:55
  our ducks in and the ducks. Yeah, slugs.
• 1:27:58
  Like, we try not to separate the systems.
• 1:28:02
  Right. Right. The systems are intertwined
• 1:28:03
  and the animals are a part of the of the
• 1:28:08
  cult. That's just one piece of
• 1:28:09
  regenerative agriculture.
• 1:28:10
  And then, you know, on a on a greater
• 1:28:13
  level, just having more diversity in the
• 1:28:16
  plant life. So rather than having acres,
• 1:28:20
  hectares of of one plant when like, you
• 1:28:26
  know, sometimes one genetically modified
• 1:28:28
  plant that has a lot
• 1:28:29
  of the same genetics.
• 1:28:31
  If a pest comes in or if a disease blight
• 1:28:35
  comes, it's going to knock everything
• 1:28:37
  out. Yeah. So that's why they have to use
• 1:28:40
  the fungicides, the herbicides, all this,
• 1:28:43
  you know, on those plants to protect them
• 1:28:46
  and in regenerative agriculture, the idea
• 1:28:49
  is, well, if there's more diversity and
• 1:28:51
  if if the fields are smaller and more
• 1:28:54
  spread out, then those kinds of diseases,
• 1:28:57
  they just can't travel because there's other, there should be more.
• 1:28:59
  There's just more genetic diversity. And
• 1:29:05
  a lot of times, too, like because of the
• 1:29:07
  biodiversity present a lot of the night,
• 1:29:10
  I don't know an example off by heart, but
• 1:29:12
  a lot of the times any invasive species
• 1:29:14
  or any species that comes in that could
• 1:29:16
  harm a specific culture.
• 1:29:18
  In this case, the buckwheat might be
• 1:29:21
  deterred by other animals present or
• 1:29:23
  other plants that are present that would
• 1:29:25
  ward off these types of invasive or, you
• 1:29:30
  know, animal life or disease that could
• 1:29:32
  be that could alter, you know, the growth
• 1:29:35
  and the health of the buckwheat or
• 1:29:37
  whatever your culturing.
• 1:29:39
  Now, so this is interesting because he
• 1:29:40
  said something that really kind of made
• 1:29:42
  me interested because I've been thinking
• 1:29:44
  about business and how everybody wants to
• 1:29:45
  grow their business and grow and grow and
• 1:29:47
  grow. And it's got to be big. It's got to
• 1:29:48
  scale. It's all this.
• 1:29:49
  When you have smaller, I guess, landmass
• 1:29:54
  or keeping it the the the I guess the
• 1:29:57
  growth of the buckwheat smaller because
• 1:29:59
  you have all this biodiversity, can you
• 1:30:01
  have a business that's sustainable, that
• 1:30:04
  can still bring in revenue without, you
• 1:30:08
  know, because you're having a smaller
• 1:30:10
  area, maybe without impacting, you know,
• 1:30:13
  your bottom line or just sort of your
• 1:30:14
  lifestyle that you prefer?
• 1:30:16
  Like, is it a change in it's a change in
• 1:30:18
  mindset? Maybe you're not growing all the
• 1:30:20
  time? Or is that in my wrong? Is it a
• 1:30:22
  change in mindset when you have a company
• 1:30:25
  that uses regenerative agriculture
• 1:30:28
  compared to the others?
• 1:30:30
  I assume that's the benefit for the
• 1:30:31
  others. You can scale really, really big
• 1:30:33
  and grow as much as possible. But there's
• 1:30:35
  a cost to that in terms of the
• 1:30:37
  environment here. You're keeping it
• 1:30:38
  small, but keeping the environment intact
• 1:30:40
  plus probably less
• 1:30:41
  upkeep and less chemicals.
• 1:30:43
  Yeah, I mean, that that's an that's an
• 1:30:47
  interesting question. And I mean, there's
• 1:30:50
  certainly there's certainly issues where
• 1:30:52
  it's like, okay, regenerative
• 1:30:56
  agriculture, great solution for climate
• 1:30:57
  change, but it's not like we can flip a
• 1:30:59
  switch and turn all of our fields onto
• 1:31:03
  regenerative agriculture right away.
• 1:31:05
  But you know, from like from our from the
• 1:31:09
  perspective of our farmers, a lot of them
• 1:31:13
  are already growing, you know, they have
• 1:31:15
  their fields are their fields are
• 1:31:19
  separated and they have they have certain
• 1:31:22
  things happening on
• 1:31:23
  different parts of their property.
• 1:31:25
  Gotcha. So we just one aspect of their
• 1:31:29
  farm. Yeah, exactly. And there's a lot of
• 1:31:32
  like crop rotation is a part of it too.
• 1:31:35
  So you can actually have quite a large.
• 1:31:38
  Yeah. Like, you can you can have a large
• 1:31:42
  farm that that farm is buckwheat. But the
• 1:31:45
  it may just be that year to year they
• 1:31:49
  rotate. Yeah, where that is being grown.
• 1:31:52
  And yeah, that alone.
• 1:31:54
  And that helps with the the nutrient
• 1:31:57
  profile of the soil and right and the and
• 1:32:00
  the bio ecosystem, the this and even from
• 1:32:03
  a farmer's perspective, do they like it
• 1:32:06
  more like regenerative agriculture than
• 1:32:08
  sort of the what has become the
• 1:32:11
  conventional agriculture?
• 1:32:13
  Yeah, I'm just gonna say yes. And but
• 1:32:18
  they may not know it yet.
• 1:32:22
  Okay, so benefits for the farmers, you
• 1:32:25
  know, for sure, they you know, they're
• 1:32:28
  they there's so many issues with farmers
• 1:32:32
  and people in rural areas with that where
• 1:32:35
  they spray a lot of life say a lot of
• 1:32:36
  incidents of leukemia cancers, all many,
• 1:32:39
  many, many health issues that arise from
• 1:32:42
  being exposed to those chemicals.
• 1:32:43
  And we've seen like the movies about
• 1:32:45
  Monsanto and like, you know, taking over
• 1:32:48
  specific areas and taking over farmers
• 1:32:50
  and seed, you know, genetic, genetically
• 1:32:53
  modified seeds and stuff like that.
• 1:32:54
  There's a lot of bad for business as well
• 1:32:57
  as bad for health,
• 1:32:58
  like human health, too.
• 1:32:59
  Exactly. So there's the health side. And
• 1:33:01
  then, yeah, that also, so what, what has
• 1:33:05
  happened in our farming system, you know,
• 1:33:07
  kind of going back to when we shifted
• 1:33:09
  away from regenerative agriculture, we
• 1:33:12
  created these, these synthetic
• 1:33:15
  fertilizers, and most of them actually,
• 1:33:18
  you know, a lot of them were created kind
• 1:33:21
  of in the post World War Two era, where
• 1:33:22
  the chemical manufacturers were needing
• 1:33:25
  to figure out what to
• 1:33:26
  do with their plants.
• 1:33:28
  Yeah, plants and they're going to produce
• 1:33:30
  so. So chemical fertilizers and, you
• 1:33:35
  know, and it really like it was a miracle
• 1:33:37
  thing you could you could improve your
• 1:33:39
  crop yields by 5x by
• 1:33:43
  inputting this this chemical.
• 1:33:45
  And then it was kind of this like this
• 1:33:47
  loop because every year you need to put a
• 1:33:50
  little bit more to get the same return on
• 1:33:54
  your on your field because you're not
• 1:33:56
  taking you know you you're not taking
• 1:33:57
  care of the soil, you're
• 1:33:59
  relying on these chemicals.
• 1:34:02
  And so what's happened is a lot of the
• 1:34:03
  farmers find themselves in a cycle where
• 1:34:06
  they need they need the the synthetics in
• 1:34:10
  order to make the way they farm work and
• 1:34:13
  a lot of them you know they learned how
• 1:34:14
  to farm from their dad, they've been
• 1:34:15
  doing it this way for 30 years.
• 1:34:19
  And so it's hard to change your ways and
• 1:34:21
  it's hard to learn something new. And so
• 1:34:24
  it's not it's not always an easy sell to
• 1:34:26
  be like you really should be growing your
• 1:34:27
  food regeneratively.
• 1:34:29
  Like just because they're like, well,
• 1:34:32
  I've always done it this way I don't want
• 1:34:34
  to change. But the farmers who do shift.
• 1:34:37
  They want regenerative regenerative be
• 1:34:40
  grown food can often bring
• 1:34:42
  in a premium price for them.
• 1:34:46
  They can make more money on their crop,
• 1:34:47
  but they also can reduce their their
• 1:34:51
  inputs, like they don't have to spend
• 1:34:54
  money on the fertilizers and the
• 1:34:56
  pesticides and the herbicides.
• 1:34:59
  So it's just a win all around really.
• 1:35:03
  Yeah. And plus they're not exposing
• 1:35:05
  themselves to these chemicals too.
• 1:35:06
  There's a danger in working with these
• 1:35:07
  chemicals. You have to be careful you
• 1:35:09
  have to wear certain types of gear and so
• 1:35:12
  forth to be an accident happen.
• 1:35:14
  Like we obviously they try and reduce
• 1:35:15
  them, but accidents happen. Yeah, there's
• 1:35:18
  a really there's a really excellent
• 1:35:19
  documentary called Kiss the Ground, which
• 1:35:22
  gives a really good perspective on some
• 1:35:24
  of the regenerative farmers takes on
• 1:35:27
  this. And yeah, it's it's powerful.
• 1:35:31
  It's powerful. I mean, and it takes I
• 1:35:33
  think it takes these types of
• 1:35:34
  documentaries to educate people like
• 1:35:37
  potential consumers are just people in
• 1:35:38
  the US and Canada and elsewhere where
• 1:35:40
  regenerative practices are trying to be
• 1:35:43
  put back in place, but are not. And we're
• 1:35:44
  looking at what our system has become.
• 1:35:46
  You know, you in marketing, you're trying
• 1:35:49
  to tell people about the benefits of of
• 1:35:51
  this bread and and like made from
• 1:35:54
  buckwheat and and how it good like I'm
• 1:35:55
  looking on the website, you get some
• 1:35:57
  pretty great reviews here for people. Did
• 1:36:00
  it is does it take a lot to get people to
• 1:36:04
  try it to try your bread?
• 1:36:10
  Um, like is it like a I guess I get you
• 1:36:13
  know, from a digital perspective when
• 1:36:15
  you're marketing and there's emails going
• 1:36:17
  out or you have an ad on YouTube or you
• 1:36:19
  have an ad on or wherever you place your
• 1:36:22
  ads or wherever you are present in terms
• 1:36:24
  of organically trying to educate people.
• 1:36:27
  Does it take like a certain amount of
• 1:36:28
  times before someone's like, no, you know
• 1:36:30
  what, I'll try it or is it more of like
• 1:36:31
  word of mouth is really helping spread as
• 1:36:34
  people are trying to try this.
• 1:36:37
  I mean, it's a little bit of it's a
• 1:36:39
  little bit of both. So Pacha bread and
• 1:36:41
  like I mentioned, it's not the cheapest
• 1:36:42
  thing on the on the shelf. So we don't
• 1:36:44
  have the benefit of like, Oh, well, this
• 1:36:46
  is the cheapest one. So I'm
• 1:36:46
  just going to grab that. True.
• 1:36:49
  But in terms of like, in
• 1:36:51
  terms of conversion rates
• 1:36:53
  and costs per
• 1:36:55
  acquisition, like, we're not in like,
• 1:36:59
  it's not like we have to pay way more
• 1:37:01
  than the next company, you know?
• 1:37:03
  We're on par with what we
• 1:37:07
  would expect in that zone.
• 1:37:09
  So it's not necessarily, it's not hard
• 1:37:12
  to give people to try it.
• 1:37:14
  It's not harder than we
• 1:37:16
  would expect it to be.
• 1:37:18
  Yeah.
• 1:37:19
  (laughs)
• 1:37:20
  Yeah, and it really depends.
• 1:37:22
  Like, you know, some customers,
• 1:37:24
  like it's just the thing
• 1:37:25
  they've been looking for,
• 1:37:26
  especially for people who are allergen,
• 1:37:29
  like really allergen free, like celiac,
• 1:37:31
  and like, yeah, just
• 1:37:34
  can't eat any of the--
• 1:37:35
  Yeah, makes it an easier decision.
• 1:37:37
  Yeah, a lot of the gluten-free breads
• 1:37:39
  have like psyllium husk and guar gum
• 1:37:42
  and different kinds of binders
• 1:37:43
  that are not actually
• 1:37:45
  like super digestible.
• 1:37:47
  So a lot of people who have inflammation
• 1:37:49
  and like irritable
• 1:37:50
  bowel syndrome, et cetera,
• 1:37:52
  they can't even really
• 1:37:53
  eat the gluten-free options
• 1:37:54
  that exist, so it's a hard thing.
• 1:37:56
  I know you're gonna
• 1:37:57
  be polite and say this,
• 1:37:58
  but a lot of people that I
• 1:37:59
  know have gluten allergies
• 1:38:00
  eat gluten-free bread
• 1:38:00
  and they say it sucks.
• 1:38:02
  (laughs) Yeah. It's just a taste.
• 1:38:03
  It's from general, like,
• 1:38:04
  not only like the irritation
• 1:38:05
  and stuff like that from it,
• 1:38:06
  but also they just say
• 1:38:08
  it doesn't taste good.
• 1:38:09
  You know, they don't like the taste,
• 1:38:10
  they don't feel good after,
• 1:38:11
  just like you
• 1:38:11
  mentioned before, like this.
• 1:38:13
  It's a tough ask, especially, you know,
• 1:38:16
  when you have to make that change, right?
• 1:38:18
  And you're trying to find something new.
• 1:38:20
  Yeah, and you know, pacha bread is,
• 1:38:23
  it's not trying to be white bread.
• 1:38:26
  I think it's the other thing. Right.
• 1:38:27
  It's just like, in some ways,
• 1:38:31
  there's a lifestyle shift that happens
• 1:38:33
  when you start eating pacha bread
• 1:38:34
  because you're not consuming it.
• 1:38:36
  Like, I don't make
• 1:38:37
  sandwiches with my pacha bread.
• 1:38:39
  I make like open-faced sandwiches
• 1:38:41
  or I kind of use them as like English,
• 1:38:43
  we have English muffins
• 1:38:44
  and I like to make like
• 1:38:46
  egg sandwiches on that.
• 1:38:47
  Oh yeah. But it's, yeah,
• 1:38:48
  it's just like a slightly different,
• 1:38:51
  it's almost its own category of food.
• 1:38:53
  So when you really
• 1:38:54
  getting people into pacha bread,
• 1:38:57
  like once people are in, they're like,
• 1:38:58
  I'm never going back, but.
• 1:39:00
  I see that, I see that
• 1:39:01
  review on there, yeah.
• 1:39:03
  Yeah, totally.
• 1:39:05
  However, we are, we
• 1:39:07
  just released tortillas.
• 1:39:10
  Oh, cool.
• 1:39:12
  Yeah, and they're incredible.
• 1:39:14
  They are made with the
• 1:39:15
  same base as our bread.
• 1:39:16
  So it's still, it's like two ingredients.
• 1:39:18
  It's just buckwheat and salt.
• 1:39:20
  And yeah.
• 1:39:22
  No chemicals, nothing else
• 1:39:23
  added, like none of that.
• 1:39:25
  Nothing.
• 1:39:26
  They're, and so they're
• 1:39:26
  super clean, allergen front,
• 1:39:29
  allergen free, gluten free.
• 1:39:31
  And they, yeah, they're
• 1:39:33
  like, they perform somewhere
• 1:39:36
  between a corn
• 1:39:37
  tortilla and a wheat tortilla,
• 1:39:39
  obviously like the
• 1:39:40
  gluten in a wheat tortilla,
• 1:39:41
  just like you can do, you can fold it,
• 1:39:43
  you can stretch it, whatever.
• 1:39:45
  That's really hard to
• 1:39:46
  achieve with gluten free.
• 1:39:49
  For sure, yeah.
• 1:39:51
  Yeah, but our tortillas, they're like,
• 1:39:52
  we actually have quite a
• 1:39:54
  few people at our facility
• 1:39:56
  who are from Mexico
• 1:39:57
  who do the production.
• 1:39:58
  They're like, this
• 1:39:59
  is, this right here now,
• 1:40:02
  this is a good tortilla,
• 1:40:03
  like this feels authentic.
• 1:40:06
  That's a good thing to
• 1:40:08
  have when you have like people
• 1:40:09
  who have tortillas on
• 1:40:10
  a fairly regular basis,
• 1:40:12
  being like, yeah, this is what we want,
• 1:40:13
  like this is the
• 1:40:15
  stuff, yeah, that's awesome.
• 1:40:17
  So like when it comes
• 1:40:18
  to the company here,
• 1:40:21
  and just, obviously the values are high
• 1:40:24
  in terms of clean eating,
• 1:40:26
  less chemicals, no chemicals,
• 1:40:29
  buckwheat, going a
• 1:40:30
  different way of farming,
• 1:40:32
  regenerative farming, it's
• 1:40:34
  a big part of your values
• 1:40:36
  as a company.
• 1:40:37
  And like, as you mentioned,
• 1:40:38
  it's not necessarily
• 1:40:38
  what you're marketing on
• 1:40:39
  because you want
• 1:40:40
  people to taste the bread,
• 1:40:41
  you want people to go with what has it.
• 1:40:44
  Like how big of a part is
• 1:40:47
  the value part of your company
• 1:40:49
  to you as well as the staff?
• 1:40:52
  I believe there's, there's what about,
• 1:40:54
  is how many people
• 1:40:55
  work for you right now?
• 1:40:56
  We've got like 25.
• 1:40:59
  25, okay.
• 1:41:00
  So like, you know, small
• 1:41:02
  to medium sized company,
• 1:41:03
  but like how important
• 1:41:05
  is that to the staff,
• 1:41:07
  to you, to your husband,
• 1:41:09
  like a co-founder Adam,
• 1:41:10
  like how big was creating
• 1:41:12
  those, that value system,
• 1:41:13
  not just for the product, but
• 1:41:15
  just for yourselves as well,
• 1:41:16
  you being an oceanographer,
• 1:41:17
  understanding climate change,
• 1:41:19
  understanding what it can do,
• 1:41:20
  understanding that the powerful impact of
• 1:41:22
  regenerative agriculture.
• 1:41:25
  When we talk a lot about ESGs and all
• 1:41:27
  these types of things,
• 1:41:28
  when we talk about values for companies,
• 1:41:30
  how big was that for all of
• 1:41:32
  you to create those values?
• 1:41:35
  I mean, I'll just say that the company
• 1:41:40
  wouldn't exist without the values.
• 1:41:42
  True, true.
• 1:41:44
  Like, you know, Adam and
• 1:41:46
  specifically our founding team,
• 1:41:49
  the people who like birthed it,
• 1:41:52
  we were clear that this was why we were
• 1:41:56
  making this company.
• 1:41:59
  Yeah.
• 1:41:59
  Like,
• 1:42:00
  it wasn't like, it wasn't like, let's
• 1:42:03
  make as much money as possible and that
• 1:42:04
  will screw the rest.
• 1:42:06
  It's let's make a great product for
• 1:42:08
  people like that is healthy for people.
• 1:42:09
  That's, that's good for the environment.
• 1:42:12
  And let's make some money while we do it.
• 1:42:13
  It's still a company, still for profit
• 1:42:14
  company, but we want to have,
• 1:42:16
  it has to be this, it has to have
• 1:42:19
  regenerative agriculture, less,
• 1:42:21
  like no chemicals, be good for people, be
• 1:42:23
  healthy, be healthy for the environment.
• 1:42:25
  That was the big thing, right?
• 1:42:28
  Yeah. And I mean, and I also think that
• 1:42:30
  there, there's a genuine trust.
• 1:42:36
  I'm going to believe, isn't quite the
• 1:42:38
  word, it's genuine trust that this is
• 1:42:41
  where business has to go.
• 1:42:43
  Yeah.
• 1:42:44
  Like we, we, we have to start doing this
• 1:42:47
  and Pacha is on the leading
• 1:42:51
  edge of a movement that is,
• 1:42:54
  that is building and unfolding and yeah,
• 1:42:58
  if we're going to have food
• 1:43:01
  farmed from our farmlands,
• 1:43:02
  we have to start shifting, you know,
• 1:43:04
  there's like an estimate that there are
• 1:43:06
  60 harvests left from most of like 95%
• 1:43:12
  of the farmable land in our country.
• 1:43:16
  60 harvest is like 30 years if we keep
• 1:43:18
  going the way we're
• 1:43:19
  going. That's terrifying.
• 1:43:22
  That is terrifying.
• 1:43:23
  That is very terrifying.
• 1:43:24
  But when you install things like
• 1:43:26
  regenerative agriculture, now you're
• 1:43:28
  looking at extending that like,
• 1:43:31
  Indefinitely. If you truly are caring for
• 1:43:34
  the ecosystem and nurturing, like just,
• 1:43:37
  if the main thing you're caring for is
• 1:43:39
  the soil, the soil is
• 1:43:41
  going to care for you.
• 1:43:42
  Yeah. Now, here's a question that you may
• 1:43:44
  or may not be able to answer because
• 1:43:46
  like, obviously
• 1:43:47
  here's the problem is like,
• 1:43:48
  you know, we have a problem where we have
• 1:43:49
  60 harvest left, about 30 years left of
• 1:43:52
  agriculture and within the United States.
• 1:43:54
  I'm sure it's very similar to Canada.
• 1:43:57
  Regenerative agriculture really will help
• 1:43:58
  to make it indefinite.
• 1:44:00
  How do we make that shift on a larger
• 1:44:02
  scale, not just company after company,
• 1:44:05
  but just being like,
• 1:44:07
  we need to make this.
• 1:44:07
  Is that a policy decision that needs to
• 1:44:10
  take place to really move the needle or
• 1:44:12
  is it more of just education
• 1:44:13
  for business owners or both?
• 1:44:16
  Yeah, I mean, to move at the pace that I
• 1:44:20
  think we need to move at, it's, you know,
• 1:44:22
  attack on all fronts.
• 1:44:25
  I do think that policy is going to be key
• 1:44:28
  in making the shift. What exactly, what
• 1:44:32
  kind of policy that needs to be,
• 1:44:33
  it's hard to say, you know, like one of
• 1:44:38
  the issues with regenerative agriculture
• 1:44:41
  is that it's actually not well defined.
• 1:44:44
  Mm hmm. Gotcha. So kind of like, you
• 1:44:48
  know, you got your organic certification
• 1:44:50
  and one of the issues with the organic
• 1:44:52
  certification was like,
• 1:44:52
  we had to define it really well in order
• 1:44:57
  to make it a USDA certification. And in
• 1:45:00
  doing so, we actually, like, some of the
• 1:45:07
  heart of what it was got lost and like,
• 1:45:10
  you know, you had to have hydroponically
• 1:45:11
  grown organic, organic certified produce,
• 1:45:15
  which is like, well, it's not really what
• 1:45:17
  we were trying to do with organic
• 1:45:20
  certification, but technically they are
• 1:45:23
  meeting all the standards.
• 1:45:26
  But, you know, in terms of making policy,
• 1:45:30
  like, yeah, I think one of the most, for
• 1:45:36
  me, at least one of the most interesting
• 1:45:38
  ideas is just implementing a carbon tax.
• 1:45:42
  I think would be is potentially one of
• 1:45:48
  the most effective ways, but then
• 1:45:50
  assessing how, how, you know, like if
• 1:45:53
  there were carbon tax and you were just,
• 1:45:56
  well, okay, there's two pieces.
• 1:45:57
  If there was a carbon tax and the and the
• 1:46:02
  you also most we didn't say this, but
• 1:46:07
  most of the pesticides herbicides and the
• 1:46:10
  synthetic fertilizers, those are all
• 1:46:12
  petrochemicals.
• 1:46:13
  They're all from petroleum.
• 1:46:15
  Right, right. So you're
• 1:46:17
  reducing that right away. Yeah.
• 1:46:18
  You know, you're going to have to tax
• 1:46:19
  that. Yeah, yeah. And get rid of the
• 1:46:22
  subsidies that currently exist for the
• 1:46:26
  wheat, soy and corn that are growing in
• 1:46:29
  this country. We have, you know, we have
• 1:46:30
  the government is paying farmers to over
• 1:46:34
  produce crops from these conventional
• 1:46:36
  systems that that would not that would
• 1:46:41
  not be viable in the
• 1:46:42
  marketplace without the subsidies.
• 1:46:43
  Right. People wouldn't buy them.
• 1:46:45
  Companies wouldn't buy them if they had
• 1:46:46
  to pay full price for them. Of course, if
• 1:46:48
  the farmers had expensive. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:46:51
  And so I think on a policy level, there's
• 1:46:54
  a lot that can be done. And it's it's
• 1:46:56
  complicated. It is. Well, it's also
• 1:46:59
  complicated. Yeah. And so many people
• 1:47:01
  have like, it's so ingrained in our
• 1:47:03
  system now that the current system of
• 1:47:05
  farming that it would be difficult to go
• 1:47:06
  back to regenerative farming, just like
• 1:47:08
  renewable energy versus, you know, fossil
• 1:47:10
  fuel energy. It's it's
• 1:47:12
  it's it's it's not an easy.
• 1:47:12
  Switch if it was easy, it would probably
• 1:47:15
  been done already. But there's a lot of
• 1:47:16
  people who have a lot of money tied into
• 1:47:18
  these systems. And, you know, they do not
• 1:47:21
  want to change. And they want to keep
• 1:47:22
  their lifestyle and they want to keep
• 1:47:23
  their money that they make. And it's and
• 1:47:25
  it can be very difficult. But I love the
• 1:47:28
  fact that, you know, Patches is like
• 1:47:31
  spearheading, just be like, you know
• 1:47:33
  what, like, we're just going to continue
• 1:47:34
  going what we're going to do. And we're
• 1:47:35
  going to show that it can be done. It can
• 1:47:36
  be done well. And we can be successful at
• 1:47:38
  doing it. And I think we just have to
• 1:47:41
  ensure that our values are supported.
• 1:47:41
  We have to ensure that our values stay
• 1:47:42
  the same and that we continue to
• 1:47:45
  challenge ourselves to continue to either
• 1:47:47
  grow our product type or even just make
• 1:47:51
  our product even better and better as we
• 1:47:53
  go along as we do more and more research.
• 1:47:56
  And I do love that now to just to kind of
• 1:47:59
  let people know, Patrick, where can
• 1:48:01
  people find Patrick to
• 1:48:03
  pick it up and give it a try?
• 1:48:05
  So easiest place, Whole Foods were
• 1:48:08
  nationwide in the frozen section. OK. And
• 1:48:12
  we also sell our bread nationwide through
• 1:48:13
  our website, livepacha.com. There's also,
• 1:48:18
  you know, other independence and some
• 1:48:20
  smaller change chains in Southern
• 1:48:22
  California and the Pacific Northwest.
• 1:48:25
  If you want to try to find a physical
• 1:48:27
  location, we have a store locator on our
• 1:48:29
  website that you can check out.
• 1:48:32
  Yeah. Awesome. If you want the tortillas,
• 1:48:36
  you got to buy them online. Wonderful. I
• 1:48:41
  mean, this is great. I think this is
• 1:48:42
  really this is really great to see this
• 1:48:45
  company continue to do what it's supposed
• 1:48:47
  to do and to be good for not only the
• 1:48:49
  people that use it, but
• 1:48:50
  also for the environment.
• 1:48:51
  And I love that. I love how you came on
• 1:48:53
  here and spreading your message. It's
• 1:48:55
  fantastic to have you on. I'd love to
• 1:48:58
  have you back on, Maddie. And maybe Adam
• 1:49:01
  would come on next time to you and talk
• 1:49:03
  about more about some of the products
• 1:49:05
  that you're doing and some of the more
• 1:49:07
  about regenerative agriculture.
• 1:49:09
  I think we're just scratching the surface
• 1:49:10
  when we come in, how it could be
• 1:49:11
  implemented on a wider scale. But we want
• 1:49:14
  to thank you so much for coming on the
• 1:49:15
  show and sharing your story. Thanks so
• 1:49:18
  much. It was great to be here.
• 1:49:19
  Thank you, Maddie, for joining us on
• 1:49:21
  today's episode of the How to Protect the
• 1:49:22
  Ocean podcast. It was great to have you
• 1:49:23
  on. It was great to speak to someone who
• 1:49:25
  has pivoted so many times in their life
• 1:49:27
  to say, hey, you know what? I want to
• 1:49:29
  have an effect on the planet. I want to
• 1:49:30
  make sure that I do something good. And
• 1:49:32
  that's to start a business that not only
• 1:49:34
  has great values, but makes a great
• 1:49:36
  product that people can enjoy. And they
• 1:49:38
  know it's healthy for them. And you don't
• 1:49:40
  market based on that. You market based on
• 1:49:42
  the tastiness and how it fits into their
• 1:49:44
  lives and why they should have it. But I
• 1:49:46
  really think this is something that we
• 1:49:48
  need to support more of.
• 1:49:48
  We need to support businesses have these
• 1:49:51
  values no matter what they're selling it
• 1:49:53
  on or how they're marketing their item.
• 1:49:55
  But they have these values regardless
• 1:49:56
  because they want to do something that's
• 1:49:57
  good for the planet because they we need
• 1:49:59
  to do something that's good for the
• 1:50:00
  planet. We need to talk about
• 1:50:02
  regenerative agriculture. This is
• 1:50:04
  something that's extremely important to
• 1:50:05
  not only the company, but also to our
• 1:50:07
  planet and how it can conserve water, how
• 1:50:10
  it can make sure that it's something that
• 1:50:12
  is a big thing. It's a big deal. It's
• 1:50:14
  good for the soil, which is good for the
• 1:50:17
  ocean. Eventually, it's good for the planet.
• 1:50:17
  Which is good for you. And I think that
• 1:50:21
  is a great sales pitch in my opinion.
• 1:50:24
  That's how it sells to me. But also it's
• 1:50:25
  great tasting bread and something I wish
• 1:50:27
  I can get access to on a more frequent
• 1:50:30
  basis. But I live here in Canada. And
• 1:50:32
  unfortunately, it's not available right
• 1:50:34
  now. Hopefully in the future. But if
• 1:50:36
  you're in the US and you want to get
• 1:50:37
  access to it, I'll put the link in the
• 1:50:39
  show notes. You can find out where it's
• 1:50:40
  being sold. And I think it's Whole Foods.
• 1:50:43
  This is what she said. But so check out
• 1:50:45
  your local Whole
• 1:50:45
  Foods. But this is so great.
• 1:50:46
  It's so great to be able to speak to
• 1:50:48
  someone like Maddie who's got an
• 1:50:50
  oceanography background, understands the
• 1:50:51
  role of the ocean that plays in the
• 1:50:53
  regulation of our planet, but also looks
• 1:50:55
  at different aspects of life. Looking at
• 1:50:57
  regenerative agriculture as a way to
• 1:50:59
  protect the planet and to conserve the
• 1:51:01
  planet is something
• 1:51:02
  that's really interesting.
• 1:51:02
  And I just love the fact that she's out
• 1:51:04
  here doing this building a business
• 1:51:06
  that's greater husband who's you know,
• 1:51:08
  multi entrepreneur does a lot of
• 1:51:12
  different things led them to this
• 1:51:14
  business here and something that's very
• 1:51:16
  successful. And so that's great with
• 1:51:18
  great values for the planet. So thank you
• 1:51:20
  again, Maddie, for joining us on today's
• 1:51:22
  episode. We're gonna put the links to the
• 1:51:24
  all the things that that will lead her
• 1:51:26
  and connect you with her and the business
• 1:51:28
  of patcha and also buy the product if you can. If you're in the US.
• 1:51:31
  Buy the product. But if you're not just
• 1:51:34
  listen to the story. We don't also we
• 1:51:37
  don't need as many scientists in marine
• 1:51:39
  biology or even just conservationists.
• 1:51:42
  Well, of course we need them but not as
• 1:51:43
  many as we need in businesses that will
• 1:51:46
  create great things that have great
• 1:51:48
  values for the planet and for healthy
• 1:51:51
  systems in general. And that's what we
• 1:51:54
  need. So this is a great inspiration for
• 1:51:55
  that. So thank you again to Maddie and
• 1:51:57
  thank you for listening to this episode
• 1:51:58
  of the how to protect the ocean podcast.
• 1:52:00
  If you have any questions or comments, please do let us know. And I'll see you next time.